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BPS 288: How I Wrote Fight Club with Jim Uhls · Bulletproof Screenwriting™ Podcast

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Screenwritting Podcast, episode number two eighty eight. But people are ashamed of usually
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Today we go inside the twisted mind of Jim Ool's, the writer of one
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of my favorite films of all time, Fight Club, And after listening to
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this episode, I just have fallen more and more in love with Jim.
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I just have to say it. Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.
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Thank you for having me on, you know, yeah, well thank
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you for coming on, because you're a person who I've been trying to get
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on for I think almost a year now. Yeah, but that's that's totally
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my fault. And that's because of like, I keep trying to find what's
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the right perfect time, and it's like, you know, you know,
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you can't find the right perfect window of time. So I finally decided to
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stop trying to do that. Well, the real story is, Jim is
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I've been wearing you down and kind of stalking you on Twitter and Facebook,
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and finally you're just like, look, if I agree to this, we
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leave me a lone kid. And I'm like, sure, why, Oh
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yeah, well I wasn't supposed to talk about that, Acqurey to Yeah,
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law enforcements. That's right here in the room with me. I wasn't supposed
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to bring that up. So they need you to keep me talking so they
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can trace the call, right, Yeah, yeah, right, definitely keep
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talking. Yeah. So, you know, Jim, just to get started,
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you know, you actually got started off with I mean, would what
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would probably be like a grand Slam in terms, in movie terms, because
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you started off with Fight Club. I mean that, you know, just
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just be writing the adaptation of the novel by I think it's Chuck Palauck.
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I think as I pronounced his last name. Yeah, yeah, politick.
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Actually, I know it's still different than it sounds, but yeah. Yeah.
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And by the way, I actually got to write him a letter one
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time and he sent it back to me. Very very interesting guy too,
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but um, you know, oh he is he's great. He's like,
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he's great, and he's participated in a lot of strange things, so he's
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got a lot of stories really oh oh yeah, absolutely, And you know
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it's it's funny. I actually knew a a person who used to do like,
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um, I think she worked at Borders or at Barnes and Noble,
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and she said, whenever he did a book event, she goes it was
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like the it was so fun because all the people would come out. But
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she's like, it also is kind of a little edgy because you know,
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some of his fans and some of the stuff that he would write, you
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know what I mean, the would kind of bring out the people that uh,
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you know, um, let's just say a little more outgoing. Let's
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just lets let's let's just oh yeah, er energetic, outgoing extroverts who have
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to have a lot of tattoos and piercings and stuff. And that's kind of
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thing, right, intimidating people. Yeah, although you know what's funny about
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Chuck is Chuck is you know, he's pretty tall. I am too.
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He's like really built out and everything musc muscular, but he is like he
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talks like the softest, kindest voice you know in the world. It's just
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it's kind of like it it doesn't go with the image because he looks like
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like I'll throw you off a bridge, you know, because give him his
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wrong side. Well, I guess that that that's so it's kind of like
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the mic Hyson syndrome then, where you know, looks very intimidating that you
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hear him talking. He's very self spoken, I guess, except chuch sports
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matter high my chest is as a high voice. Yeah he does, he
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does get but but uh but yeah, you know, he was such an
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interesting guy to just to get a correspondence from. And uh, I know
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he does you know a lot of really cool things in the writing community.
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Uh. I mean there's even a thing he does on lit Reactor where it
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sells out in like seconds. Um, he does like an online class.
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But uh but you know, just such a it's such a really interesting guy.
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And you know, when he wrote fight Club, which I actually talked
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to him about, That's what I really talked to him about, was because
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I'm always interested in people's like first outing, like their first you know project
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out the gate. So basically with you, you know, his first project
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was fight Club that actually got published, and then your first project was the
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adaptation of, you know, of of fight Club. So you know,
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how did that all have come together for you. Yeah, well, actually
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I was. I was really the ad patient from the manuscript before the publishers
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actually put the ship put it on shelves, because I remember the day we
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got a copy, the adventure got to copy him the published book. But
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yeah, I was working off a manuscript at the beginning. Now I've been
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sent the manuscript by somebody I knew worked for a producer, said, every
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studio and producer in town has passed on this, but I'm sending it to
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you because I just know you're going to like it just for fun and who
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knows, just keep your attention on it and see if anything does happen.
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So I read it and it was like wow. I mean, first of
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all, blew me away. Secondly, I thought it would be such a
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great gig to be paid to it at this even though it will never be
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made to a movie. That's just to be paid to write it had pitch
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to be a great gig, right, And so I I had, you
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know, without my agent, we were like seeing while and I don't everybody's
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pretty much passed on this. And then that was around the time The Fox
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two thousand was created. As law Resistant was writing it, and she's kind
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of like, you know, I don't know. She wanted to do really
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out there stuff, and the book was considered unadaptable, probably because it is
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a monologue. The whole book is like a monologue an actor to do.
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I mean, Chuck I even told me he started by writing a monologue.
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I mean he wanted an actor to do it on stage. But we are
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I mean it wasn't going to be that long obviously, but um, it
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didn't have a lot of fully fleshed out scenes in um they were described I
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guess by the guy there. Um and uh so it had. It got
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branded unadaptable by everybody, and of course that I think Laura was sech a
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person. If you say that, that's like a red flag and trugleld basic
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equations. She was entitled idella really oh but she wouldn't hire a writer until
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she hired a drunk. So um. By this point I started getting people
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other people thoughts two thousand and the producers were Ross Bell and Josh Donnard.
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Yeah, I mean I was. I was having meetings with them. The
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star to turn into like where actually you're doing this with? You know,
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even though no one said like that, and they made Fox two thousand aware
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of me, and I happen to have a spect at the time that was
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I don't know it makes it made. There wasn't a blacklist then, but
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it made some kind of list of best ones not produced original specs. I
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don't know what it was. So it's kind of had a reputation. The
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script and that was what everyone read as a sample. And I kind of
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already knew Fisher. I say, he's somewhere between an acquaintance center friend by
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that because there was this place called the Pad of Guides where all these people
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would hang out, like Shane Black, who writing from UCLA. We'll be
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right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show.
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And Finsher was one of the gang because you know, a good portion
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we're from the Bay Area in San Francisco, Bay Air and who moved to
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LA so we kind of do each other if they liked that script I'm talking
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about, and nobody still nobody ever said at this point, you're hired to
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me, right, And finally there's this huge lunch schedule. It's going to
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have Laura just uh, it's going to have other Fox two thousand executives it's
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gonna Fincher and me, And the idea is, oh, I reproduces of
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course, Ross Belly, Joshta and so. And the idea was, I'm
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going to have to sell myself or they'll move on. So it was sort
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of like, it's we're all having lunch, You're going to tell us why
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you have an idea of how to do this? It's up. Well,
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like most writers, I don't like pitchings, you know. So what I
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did was I started this group conversation among everybody about how, you know,
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with this work but that work, could you do this? And it went
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on and told the lunch so oh, first, sorry, I looked at
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it an important detail. I got there early enough to know what table it
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was going to be. I waited, and the next person who arrived was
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Fincher. We kind of since we knew each other. We shook handed.
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He was and he sat down and I made sure I sat down right next,
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and then everybody else came, so it already looked like like I was
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connected to Fisher, you know, Thank you, Ben. Yes, I
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ran this conversation, which never was a pitch by me, but it was
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a very interesting conversation about the obstacles of trying to you know, turn it
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into the film. And Kevin McCormick, who was basically you know, Laurasi
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becaus mean person there. I think fix two thousands of time. We're leaving,
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the lunch is over and Fisher is talking about when I should start on
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the thing. Nothing's been said. Kevin McCormick, as are walking out,
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says, you know, Jim, really give a subjective pitch. What you're
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gonna do? I said, yeah, I know, he didn't do anything
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about it, right, And the next thing, I know, my age
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is just making a deal. That's that. You know, I'm starting the
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first draft. So it was, you know, a little bit ethereal I
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don't all happen. You know that is a good strategy though a Jim.
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It's all about appearance, right, So you have to you have to always
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look and kind of kind of set things up so to set yourself up for
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the wind wins. You know. Yeah, And you know, I said,
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what's funny about that is I didn't see I didn't have that idea until
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I just absolutely got there early. And then that's when I became cunning all
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of a sudden. It's like I've never thought of that before, and then
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I was like, yeah, I'm gonna get this. I'm gonna sit next
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to ficture because like it all came to me, like I don't know,
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like kind of a split personality myself and the other personality came out and said,
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this is what you're gonna do. You know. It's kind of that
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kind of ties in a fight club too, having that split personality, right
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right, I suddenly I was Tyler Dirton. And by the way, you
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know, the first person narrator of the book doesn't have a name. Ever,
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there's no name and a narrator right right. And I think I talked
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to Ross Bell and Josh don Josh Donn and at some point I can't pinpoint
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it, but he stopped being a producer became an agent again, which he
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had been before. And so I only left Ross Bell for the first draft,
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and Fincher was doing something like just expecting me to just get the first
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draft in the well fit them, we'll look at it and talk about it.
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Right So um um, I forgot what started this, but what we
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say they got me on to this part of the conversation. We're talking about
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all my club and du dual personalities and alter egos. Oh yeah, no
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name. So yeah, we discuss I think it was most mostly me and
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Ross Bell. We should put the word narrator down as the name. And
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I said, you know, let's good. Just get really really tirsome.
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Narrator goes to the door. Narrator laughs. Narrator says, it's just I
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mean in the in the in the place where you put the character name before
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the dialogue. Okay, not too bad, but in all the actions,
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descriptions and everything, it's like, okay, well, we're going to name
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it in the script for us. It's never in dialogue, it's never in
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the movie. But we have to call him something. So I said,
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Jack. I mean, what's the first name that comes behind me? To
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make an example? All right, so what God comes into Jack? And
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he said, you know what I mean, the first thing anyone picks up
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is Jack. And I said Jack. Yeah, all right, we'll call
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the character Jack so that I could write Jack in the screenplay, is said
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narrator all the time, right, And then somewhere on the line, we
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found out the Reader's Digest completely denied permission to use their old series of articles,
16:47
which was like I am Joe's heart, I am Joe's liver, which
16:52
is referred to in the book because of the House on paper Streets has a
16:57
billion old magazines all over the point, and so we said, well,
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we'll just change it to Jack and legal cleared it. Jeff, you say,
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I am Jack's whatever organ. They can't do anything. You don't name
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the magazine. I am Jack Sliver, they can't do anything. Okay,
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So that actually gets said, and some people think that the report was actually
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saying when he said I am Jack Whatever, the name of his character,
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but he wasn't. It was the name of the articles, and then he
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made parodies of them, you know, like I am Jack's complete lack of
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surprise. Actually, I bring that up because I had to write. I
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wanted him to say it out because I knew we'd be so used to him
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narrating and having his own comments that I wrote. I couldn't just leave off
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the vo because I think it's a mistake. So in addition to leaving off
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parentheses vo after Jack, I wrote in the parentheses below his name said that
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out wow, because he's been thinking this all along. I am Jack,
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steaming outrage, I am whatever, and the boss says something to him,
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and he actually says that the boss I am Jack's completely lack of surprise to
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the boss and Black. It's the only time he actually said something that he
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normally does the narration that he said it out loud like, and I thought
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that also shows that his mind there's less division between what he thinks and what
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he says because he's coming apart right right, so as the altregos go back
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and forth, right, Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean it's
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uh, this was still before you something out loud, before he discovered the
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truth, you know, So, Jim, just to just to ask a
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quick question there. You know when you hear when when people hear things like
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about screenwriting rules and et cetera. But you know, you shouldn't do this
19:21
in a screenplay. You shouldn't do that in a screenplay. Um, if
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somebody were to do something like this in a screenplay and they submitted it to
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a competition or what or or an agent or what have you, you know,
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what kind of response do you think they would get if they did something
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like that. Do you think somebody would think it was you know, original,
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or do you think somebody would say like, oh, you know,
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you have to kind of write a cut and dry screenplay as the first one.
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But when then then when you get a little cash, you can move
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on, right, So what what should you what is this just like you
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know, kind of how things are, you know, like he's writing parentheses
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said out loud, you know, just kind of like to try to either
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you know, in a competition or even just saying it's an agent. You
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know. Do do you think that they would ever ever get any kind of
20:06
backlash if they did something like yeah you want that would work? I mean,
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it wouldn't be a good idea unless you had already established that this guy
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thinks these things and this bo when he says them, and you do it
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repeatedly enough over a long enough period of time that you make a point of
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saying, this time he's saying it out. I'll bet you. Okay,
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we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to
20:38
the show. But if it was just out of the blue, there was
20:45
no setup, or it probably would look like, you know, not good
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form. I guess well, because you know, you always hear about the
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screenplay rules, and you always kind of wonder, or at least I wonder
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you know, how how how much should they be? Really? How much
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do they actually carry weight? You know what I mean, because I've read
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so many books onto on screenwriting, and also do you hear so many people
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talk about it, we actually start to wonder about all the different rules and
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you know where they actually came from, and if they even if someone doesn't
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even matter anymore, you know what? You know, you know what I
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mean, Jim, Because I mean, I'm sure you get a lot of
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questions too, because you know, um, you still run the writer's lab
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out there in LA and I'm sure you get a ton of people saying,
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hey, well I heard this and I heard that. I mean, do
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you get that a lot? Well, you know, I think that they
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are always relaxing rules, they're always gooding. You know, It's it's always
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been a process of slowly becoming more and more you know, however you want
21:44
to write it. I mean within certain parameters, you know. I mean,
21:48
if they have to know if something that's what we call a slug line,
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you know, the shocked exterior interior living room day, they have to
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know that after that there is action or description. They have to know that
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when someone's talking, they have to see the name where you put the character
22:08
name in all caps, the center of the page, and then their dialogue.
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So some things have to look like a screenplay. But in terms of
22:22
other rules, you're getting into style questions because there's actually a style beyond just
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obeying the format, Like, for example, you don't do too much directing
22:34
on paper. That's not good. You know, shot his face, shot
22:41
his watch, shot his feet step into the shot. You know, I
22:45
mean, it's not a good idea. So Greening writers write in master scene,
22:52
you know, they say where it's taking place, and then they just
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write the scene. Now are there exceptions of that? Of course there are,
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and there are important ones that you can use. One of them as
23:04
the first example I always give to where you're actually talking about the camera is
23:11
pulling back to reveal more than what you were seeing at the top of the
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seat. Thrillers and comedies use this a lot, which is like, you
23:25
know, a comedy guy says to another guy, I will never do something
23:30
as boring as fishing. Cut two. It's the other guy who was talking
23:34
to him, the guy who likes to fish, just sitting there with a
23:38
fishing pot in a boat, and you pull back to reveal that on the
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other end of the boat is the guy who said I will never do something
23:48
as borings fishing in these fishes. Right, you first thought it was just
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the guy who likes to fish there, and you pulled back and you revealed
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the guy who just screamed that he'd never do it is sitting there all sufficient.
24:00
So that's a reveal. And you know, thrillers do it a lot
24:04
by showing the lead character whatever they're doing, pulling back so that they reveal
24:12
the killer, which the lead character doesn't see. Yeah, but we do.
24:18
Now, those are those are the things you're definitely doing writing that is
24:26
part of your narrative At storytelling. It's not telling somebody how to shoot fill
24:34
it's it's saying, I'm you know, this is the intention when I start
24:41
the scene, and then I'm going to reveal somebody or something. So that's
24:48
all right. You know, that's an example of something where you don't have
24:52
to just writeing masters you can have a moment like that. Um, I
25:00
think writers are I mean, from what I've read, they basically started to
25:04
go the way into like what the camera does. I don't know if that's
25:12
why, is if somebody's just starting out. I don't know. I know
25:21
that there's a cringe factor to seeing something that looks like you're directing the whole
25:25
movie on paper. So I would say you use it when the storytelling is
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saying that, you know, the suspense thriller, if you're writing it,
25:40
you have the right to say that, we think there's this fairly peaceful scene
25:45
with the lead character, and then you pull back to reveal that the killer
25:49
is right behind the street. Either whatever it is, that's that is right,
25:56
that is part of stream. But yeah, I don't know, I
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have to go down which rules we're talking about one by one to know what
26:08
by answer your question, Yeah, I know I should have I should have
26:14
been more specifics Jim, But I know, I know it was kind of
26:17
a blanket statement. But you know, you just hear different rules of screenwriting.
26:21
I mean, they even did one on script notes one time where they
26:23
kind of went through these rules quote unquote, um, next time, I
26:27
mean next time off to send them to you, but they kind of went
26:30
through those script notes. Is the podcast by Craig Mason and John August But
26:36
oh yeah, no, I know, I know. John August is such
26:38
a great source of information uses amazing. Yeah, and man, he has
26:47
things that people agree with people don't like. For instance, Perior is what
26:51
typewriters, right, that's why they that's why screen place as still done because
27:02
on the typewriter, back in the days when there was only tie a page
27:07
equals a minute. What they don't want you to suddenly start having smaller type
27:11
or bigger type, or they want it to look like that old typewriter.
27:17
Okay, and that's Perior twelve point point that's what they wanted in period.
27:27
So I don't even know what that point I was me see see, I
27:37
told you, I told you, Jim, I get too heady. And
27:40
now we're going down that path right right, right now. I like that
27:44
part. Yeah, well, what are the rules? What are the rules
27:47
you're talking? Oh oh no, wait, sorry, I know what they're
27:49
gonna say. John August agrees with and a lot of people do that.
27:56
In Perior twelve point five, which it looks like a type you used to
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look like. If you put a period, it's have two spaces after it.
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And the reason for it typewriter was with that font a period with only
28:15
one space sort of you could miss that it. I guess your eyes go
28:22
over. It might not. It doesn't make the statement that this simms ends
28:27
and this one begins. So I know that John thinks we should get to
28:36
a space effort, which is the traditional way of using that font. But
28:41
other fonts, since now we have computers and thousands of fonts right, don't
28:48
necessarily deep to spaces after a period. And some people have brought it back
28:52
to screenplays. To Courier twelve points, I'm only putting one space, John
29:00
says two. I just half the business says too. Half the business says
29:07
one. You know, it's kind of a mocking Oh well, you know,
29:11
if you want to give a way that you're older, put two spaces,
29:15
you know. So you know people are rapidly only putting in one space
29:19
after a period because by god, they're not going to look older, you
29:22
know. But um best an example of something that you know actually is so
29:30
inconsequential. I don't even know why I talked about it. So you've got
29:37
to give me another rule. I don't know some of them all the top
29:41
of my head. I have to look at that list. Uh that was
29:44
actually uh because that list was more like definitive with kind of a heart and
29:48
fast rules but but um, Jim, are we at a time? No
29:55
oh no, no, no, we're not actually U the things that I
30:02
was going to go to is starting like forty five minutes later it was originally,
30:07
so I'm not I'm fine, okay, awesome, so we'll keep going.
30:15
Say I have a I have a ton of other questions, but that
30:18
so, you know, I think just to get back, you know,
30:22
because we were talking about you know, uh, just screenwriting in general.
30:26
So I know you you do a lot of work with the Writer's Lab.
30:30
You actually also did the Class of Creative Live, you know, so you
30:34
know what the writers. I just wanted to say this look like, just
30:37
so it's publicly out there or you're calling in the Writer's Lab there it's still
30:41
going on. Called safe Us. We'll be right back after a word from
30:48
our sponsor, and now back to the show. That's the name I came
30:57
up with because the idea is it's only the writer actors that are involved in
31:07
it that are there. You can't bring in someone who has could be a
31:11
buyer. And the purpose of that is experimentation. This complete experimentation. You
31:17
could do stuff and it might not work, but you don't want to do
31:22
something that doesn't work in front of buyers. So we don't want that atmosphere,
31:26
right, so I call it safe house. It's definitely still going.
31:34
And so I mean you say you still do that, and then you still
31:37
do. You know, you have the class of creative life. You know
31:40
just about the art and craft of screenwriting. You know, so as you
31:45
kind of have done this journey of screenwriting over the years. Um so you
31:48
know again you you were able to break in in nineteen eighty nine with Fight
31:52
Club, you know, as you kind of, uh, you have gotten
31:56
all this knowledge over the years. You know, what are some of the
32:00
you know, some of the things that you've seen or some of the advice
32:01
that you could give to people who are out there just starting their own screenplay
32:06
right now. Well, I mean I've probably said this before and somewhere else,
32:15
but I mean I think you should. People people who are beginning can
32:22
really obsessed with their first script. Like this first script it's just to make
32:28
They're stuck with it. It's like I've got to get this perfect and it's
32:32
and it has to people the one that it's And I think that when you
32:38
I think you should right all the way through a first draft of it,
32:43
type the end, you're all the way through it, and then take your
32:49
attention. You know, in the typewriter days they would have said throw it
32:55
in a drawer, So metaphorically, throw it in a drawer and start writing
33:04
a different screen player, because okay, then you have to then get all
33:09
the way through the first draft. Let spring play number two and then take
33:15
your attention off of it, and then a third screenplay all the way through
33:22
to the end first draft. Then I didn't go back to first because the
33:31
kind of objectivity and even the wisdom you've gained by writing two more free play
33:38
makes you a different person looking at your first screen play, you're a different
33:44
writer. You're a better writer, really, no matter why. You're a
33:50
better writer if you've done three and you're going to look at it differently,
33:58
and you're going to get hit with a lot of great ideas that would probably
34:05
never have occurred to you if you had to have that much time away from
34:08
it. And then when you've worked on that, well, your path is
34:15
set. What do you go to? Where do you play number two?
34:20
Wow, you're looking at that one like you never looked at it. If
34:23
you do this with three, in terms of working starting out writing for no
34:37
money, right aspect, If you do a second draft of three screen different
34:44
screen pot, I think you've done almost all the work you need to do
34:52
before turning your attention way more rapidly to the business part of it. But
35:00
in terms of writing that that, you know, I don't think anything's lacking
35:06
there a second draft of three screenplays. I mean, you're you're just you're
35:13
better. They're better, and you have more than one thing to show,
35:21
which means that you're somebody who could be hired because you keep writing. You're
35:27
I mean you didn't just write one screenplay. I mean, how many people
35:30
have written one screenplay? Is probably you know, half this country has written
35:35
one screenplay, you know. But that's that is that you've earned the right
35:45
to like seriously change your focus too ustling on the business side, because you've
35:54
done two drafts each of three screenplay, the second of which is an enormous
36:02
improvement over the first. And that, by the way, can all be
36:09
done without a teacher, without an instructor, or any writing because and I'm
36:15
not saying it should be without it could be enhanced greatly by being part of
36:21
something where an instructor is you know, guided or whatever. But what I'm
36:25
saying is, if you don't have that, if you can't afford that,
36:29
if whatever, if you're in a town that doesn't have that, you can
36:34
write three screenplays right, second drafts of all three, and you are a
36:42
better writer. I don't care where you are or who's seen it. You're
36:49
a better writer, and the second drafts are all better. Verse. That's
36:53
just going to happen. So that's screenwriting without a teacher. You so screwing
37:02
without a teacher. You I like that. So basically, if you were
37:08
to take that, you know, just take that out even a step further.
37:10
You know, just a person without you know, any type of you
37:14
know, manual or anything to go by. They're just you know, it's
37:19
just them maybe a pad of paper and a pen in a room somewhere.
37:22
Um, you know, what are your thoughts on you do you do you
37:25
recommend outlining or do you think it should just be one of those cases where
37:29
you just you have an idea and just kind of fly by the seat of
37:31
your pants. Well, um, well, I was saying, I hate
37:37
I hate pitching, although I have done, by the way, there have
37:40
been times when I later I tried to start a conversational and said, no,
37:44
we're not out of the conversation. Yeah, what's the pitch? I
37:46
did work? But despite the fact that I hate it, I have done
37:53
good pitches. Um, And how why does I feel the same way about
37:58
it? I'm not very very very shortlessly to the idea of outlines. And
38:04
here's the reason for it. An outline is something that documents what you're going
38:09
to write before you write it. Now, if you're telling your entire story
38:17
before you tell your story, I mean, it fundamentally doesn't make sense.
38:23
But also, an outline is clinical. It's it's a very bloodless clinical thing.
38:32
I mean, if you have an emotional scene, you just say they
38:36
have an emotional scene, Like wow, that just when I've read that,
38:39
should they have an emotional scene? I just broke down a good yeah.
38:45
It's like no, of course not. An outline has nothing in it except
38:52
literal blocked. I mean, you can take time to maybe describe the character
38:58
or whatever. You can obviously have your character behave in their way in a
39:04
way that just makes them distinct. You can do all this stuff in an
39:06
outline, but ultimately it's still clinical. Now I can't say, don't write
39:12
outlines, because don't be people who hire you want an outline first, and
39:17
you're going to write it. So what I like to do is switch off
39:29
my time between an outline and just some scenes. The scenes give me what
39:39
I call the sense of blood, which means I'm I'm in there. I'm
39:43
with living, breathing people, and they're starting to come alive. They're behaving
39:49
and speaking, and I can't go back to the outline, and I feel
39:52
like I'm creating on that other level. So that it allows me to feel
39:59
bit or about the album because I know that I've got these scenes where these
40:04
characters really are working. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
40:14
and now back to the show. So that's what I do. I
40:19
kind of go back and forth between the two things. I mean, if
40:25
they need an outline by X amount of time, obviously I'm not gonna be
40:28
writing a lot of scene on the side, but some enough to just feel
40:35
like I know these people you know, and they work and I'm excited about
40:39
So okay, I'll just continue with the plot autumn if I don't have to
40:46
write it out. I don't think I ever do. I don't I don't
40:52
consider it fine by the seat of my pants. I think that I have
40:58
enough of an idea to move forward. But the thing about writing the script
41:05
is if you allow yourself you you discover as you go, and that's really
41:14
where the best stuff comes from. Something you discover you had pre thought it.
41:22
You know, the characters were behaving and something happened. You know what's
41:28
going to happen. Now, that's when it really gets but and exciting to
41:34
do it. And that best can't be pre determined or wouldn't be what I'm
41:40
talking about right right, But you do have to have an idea, you
41:46
know. I mean, I think you have to have an idea. And
41:49
I even think there's a form this is that there is a mutative form of
41:55
allied and script that is basically but it's sometimes it goes to full script right
42:04
there in the outline. I think it goes back to outline form. I
42:07
think they call it a script like combining script and treatment. Um that that
42:15
could be a way that works for you, that that is definitely something you're
42:20
doing for yourself. I mean, I don't think there's anybody highers I want
42:23
to script. You know, if they want an outline, they want an
42:27
outline, but in terms of how you work on your own, I think
42:31
that's that that's a viable option to do it that way at first. You
42:38
know, when I was talking about Chuck earlier, one of the pieces of
42:43
advice he gave me was to, you know, have have some kind of
42:49
opening, uh in mind, have some kind of ending in mind, and
42:52
write the end. So it kind of so whatever your writing feels finished and
42:55
then he goes. So you have your your beginning, and you kind of
42:59
in vision how this story would end. You're kind of imagining how the characters
43:04
are transformed. So you're basically imagining this. You're not You're not like you
43:07
know what has to happen, so to speak. If if I'm making this
43:10
clear enough, but basically you kind of have the ending in mont. You're
43:15
you're kind of letting you they don't have to start filling in all those gaps
43:17
of how we got from point A to point you know B or point Z.
43:22
Really yeah in the story. Yeah, I think I think, yeah,
43:25
me, he's got a great point. I think I think I probably
43:28
just think that way. I mean, I always think, like, because
43:31
you're you're going in that direction. That's also why I think you should have
43:35
a title. My joke about it is untitled dirty cop, Porno, ring,
43:42
pizza, joint, ool's project or something untitled, and then it has
43:46
all these words in it because you see that's with stuff that's not titled.
43:52
Um, I don't think that helps you to write something, but it's just
43:58
untitled. A title points view. In a lot of everything's in the same
44:06
direction, same story, character, they're all going in that direction, but
44:12
that title is pointing. And sometimes you know, in the middle of the
44:16
process that title you're holding onto, that that's you're suspended above a huge abyss
44:23
and that's the only thing you're holding onto sometimes, So I m titles think
44:30
the ending that's all good because you're allowing yourself to go, Okay, I'm
44:37
going to get there, but I'm gonna I'm gonna discover how I get there,
44:45
which is great. Definitely, yeah, because that kind of takes away
44:52
from the kind of um, like you mentioned, where it's kind of robotic
44:55
or kind of you know, our I guess cliche where you kind of have
45:00
an outline and it's kind of set in stone. But the problem is it's
45:04
not spontaneous. It feels kind of contrived. You know what I mean.
45:07
It's kind of like the story by formula. Yeah, I mean, I'm
45:13
not even necessarily saying you all lie makes you write down cliches or you know
45:20
what I mean. You could be writing an outline with places. It's really
45:22
fascinating. It's just that you're not. You're not playing with behavior action a
45:30
dialogue at all, really, and you want to be in that, you
45:36
know. Um, but that's but yeah, I mean yeah, because alls
45:45
could be completely written with wow, every idea this is. I'm not saying
45:51
at all that they forced you come up with cliches. They don't. It's
45:57
just not a script, that's all. Really. It kind of takes the
46:00
emotion out right, because that's what you want, you know, you want
46:04
the That's what I think. Yeah, I think, I mean, unless
46:07
you're going to like go novelist on it and really shut you right, you
46:15
know, because if you're writing a novel of yeah, then you can get
46:17
all that, you can have, emotion, you can have. But that's
46:20
a novel, you know, I mean. An outline is just tell me
46:27
what happens in this show. That's not the same as a novel, and
46:37
it's certainly not the same as a screenplay, right right, And that's why
46:43
when I you know, imagine with with that advice that you just gave,
46:45
and you're the one that Chuck gave two, it's kind of like you can
46:50
see how Fight Club kind of came together from that. Um, you know,
46:53
you start off with a guy who absolutely you know has something missing in
47:00
his life, and he ends with you know, um well spoiler alert everybody,
47:04
just in case you haven't seen it yet. Um, you end up
47:07
with you know him at the end, with with Marla and they've just blown
47:10
up a bunch of buildings in Wilmington, Delaware, right right. I mean
47:15
the book had a coda, which we just think it wouldn't have worked.
47:22
The book doesn't stop there, right, which is too Yeah uh yeah.
47:32
I mean he realized he had to he had to create this person to be
47:37
everything he couldn't get himself to be, you know, and then he didn't
47:44
meet this person any more, and this person was like insane and pointed a
47:46
lot of stuff that had to be stopped. Yeah. Um, but it's
47:52
kind of gost writers Jim, right, Yeah, he creating alter ego and
47:57
it kind of ends up consuming you. Yeah that's true. Well, yeah,
48:06
that was happening to me right before wherever you were calling, I would
48:08
be like, right in the middle of this, and I fixed it.
48:12
But you know I was done, So all is okay. Uh. So
48:21
you know, uh, you know, Jim, I wanted to ask,
48:22
you know, uh with you know, we've been talking about screenwriting and everything
48:25
like that. You know, uh what what are you currently working on?
48:31
I mean, oh, sorry, go ahead, no, no, I'm
48:37
sorry. I was just gonna say, like, you know, I know
48:38
you can't go to details, but you know, just in general, you
48:40
know what kind of projects you work on? Now? Well, I mean,
48:45
um, the screenplay gig so to speak that I have is doing an
48:51
adaptation uh actually a series graphic novels um that come from South Korea, and
49:01
we're changing, you know, I mean that we're we're departing from the source
49:07
material in a lot of ways. But it's you know, it's it's it
49:15
could be put you called in the action genre, but within that, I
49:22
try to do as much character work as possible and make it relate to the
49:25
action that's happening. If there do have to be like there has to be
49:30
some breathtaking action, and I think sometimes I find that more challenging anything.
49:37
It's like, how what's going to make this a different kind of moment of
49:43
action? So um, but anyway, yeah, I'm doing that. And
49:52
let's see that there's some there's some things that are just honing the pictures for
50:00
television, which is one of the pitching industry. And so I don't know,
50:07
I divide my time out between these things. We'll be right back after
50:15
a word from our sponsor and now back to the show. So basically,
50:24
do you decide what to work on, you know, just based upon your
50:29
I mean, do you juggle projects a lot? As what I'm trying to
50:30
say, Do you juggle projects multiple projects at one time? Yeah, I
50:37
mean I have. It's usually, um, they're stacked so they're sort of
50:43
legally protected from each other in a way. That's yeah, if you won't
50:46
start this until this whatever, But if that happens. But if not,
50:53
if I'm just wearing one thing to pay, then I'm still spending some time
51:00
working on ideas for other things, you know, my own ideas. Um,
51:07
so it gives me a lot to do. So so, Jim,
51:15
I wanted to ask, are you ever going to direct your own film?
51:17
Would you ever consider directing your own film. Um, I don't know.
51:22
I've been about three or four screenplay started that are The impulse was that I
51:31
would direct him. I have never got them finished, but I probably should.
51:44
I I've done some shorts that are not really for public distributed. They
51:51
were just exercises and I found that it was a mentality I could get into.
52:00
But it, you know, it does involve every single human being around
52:04
you is looking at you for an answer, you know, all the time,
52:08
so it's intense. But answer the question. I think it's possible I
52:16
might. So basically, did you go onto this set of Fight Club and
52:22
see like what Fincher was going through and you were like, There's no way
52:25
I'm doing that. Screw that? Well, I mean you couldn't really tell,
52:32
you know. For I think what I what I know from director to
52:37
short is you can't watch the director and know what it feels like. You
52:44
can't guess what it feels like. You can't you have no consen because when
52:49
you're directed, then you know, there's only one way to know what it's
52:53
like with everybody is looking at you for the answer and the next answer and
52:58
the next danger, and that is if you're in a position you can watch
53:02
someone else, but I think you could have an idea of it, and
53:06
you probably have some idea of it, but you don't know until you're doing
53:13
it. And you know, I watched him and his master detail. I
53:21
think all this stuff came to him instinctually. Just it was just amazing.
53:25
You know, it had been really great just to work with him on the
53:29
scriptum, meaning not to talk about Les changed this change that. That was
53:36
a lot of fun. And I know that I didn't see it, but
53:40
I know I can kind of demand, you know, on the crew.
53:47
I mean I just saw everything looking like it was being shot by a master,
53:52
which it was. Yeah, so it was great. You know,
53:58
I actually had on Bob signs. Bob was an actually was an actual cab
54:04
driver in Zodiac, also directed by David Fincher. So he was he was
54:08
he was telling an anecdote that, uh he was. He was So him
54:13
Bob as the cab driver is driving Jake Joe on Hall and they did about
54:16
one hundred takes of this and finally Jake Joe just just popped his head into
54:22
you know, he got out of the cab and this and that. So
54:23
he looked in he goes to Bob. He goes, Bob, do you
54:27
want to do this anymore? And he goes, what do you mean?
54:29
He goes, do you want to do this this scene anymore? Because I
54:30
don't, uh, And he went up to David like so, and Jake
54:35
bump to David Fincher goes, I just can't do this anymore because David,
54:37
we have one hundred takes me getting out of a cab at some point it
54:40
has to look good. And Dave was like, no, no, no,
54:43
no no, and then Jake so so Jake goes, you know,
54:45
you know, he goes, you know what, I'm done. He goes,
54:47
It's finished. And my friend Bob was still singing the cab like should
54:52
I get out or as this thought, I don't know, but uh but
54:55
yeah, yeah, I'm just a funny, uh funny story. I told
54:59
Bob say he should have just kind of stand, you know, just kind
55:01
of drove the cab off at that point and called it, called it a
55:05
day. But now he um, I think that would actually be funny if
55:08
he just drove off the set. He left exactly. Yeah, no,
55:16
I mean I never saw anything bad, intensely repeated myself. But you know,
55:22
certainly he he would shoot and sometimes it wasn't because you know, every
55:30
take is wrong until I get the right one. Sometimes he was doing things
55:34
that have choices, so he do them a little differently, you know.
55:37
So I didn't see anything like that where you described, um, but yeah,
55:45
it reminds me. I think there's a in the seventies. You know,
55:49
there was a movie where the director said, well, it was the
55:52
actor who wanted to keep doing takes, the movie star, that is,
55:58
and the director said, uh, okay, well I'm done with this today.
56:01
As you left and the actors kept doing the movie star, I kept
56:07
doing he takes it, you know, because he controlled the situation. Really
56:12
so um. Anyway, that's that's It's just funny. It reminds me there
56:17
what you're saying, because you know, it's just because you know, that's
56:22
a mistake I made. I'm just doing my short films. Was I didn't
56:25
get different the takes weren't different for different choices. Uh. That's something I
56:30
learned, and I was like, you know, I should have did this,
56:32
I should do that. So when I started making other ones, I
56:35
would make sure that different takes, you know, things were said differently.
56:37
Uh, you know, there was different, different, you know, reactions,
56:43
big small stuff like that, you know, so that you have something
56:45
in the editing room to choose from when you're picking and choosing all your your
56:50
piecing all this together, right right? Yeah, Um, I think it's
56:57
pretty smart to do that. I don't know what what's going on with the
57:02
cats and so, yeah, but I do think that having choices as smart.
57:09
I mean, and I saw him do it, so it just seemed
57:13
like, yeah, it could be this that I think that's well, pretty
57:19
intelligent. Well that's why I get David Fincher on this podcast to talk about
57:22
it. So, and I'd be willing to bet you, Jim ten dollars
57:27
that he probably would say, I have no idea what you're talking about,
57:30
so because he wouldn't remember me. Everything does seem instinctual, if that's what
57:36
you mean. He does seem to like it just sort of comes out of
57:40
it because he's been asked, what do you realize that this pattern and this
57:45
what end the way that person behaved? Whether you must have purposely done that?
57:50
And he like he has this looked like what are you talking about?
57:54
But he is doing it the fact that he's doing it instinctually doesn't change.
58:00
Actually he's doing that, then he knows he's getting where he likes, you
58:04
know. Um, so he's operating off instincts. Is really a good idea
58:10
for him. It's just uh worked out well. Yeah, yeah, definitely
58:17
it has worked out well. Um. You know, the Growth of Dragons
58:21
had to Zodiac Fight Club. Um, and you know it just he's uh,
58:27
you know, he's a he's a machine. Um. Definitely definitely one
58:30
of the best directors working today. You know that about it. Yeah.
58:36
So and when I when I was when I was working with him, you
58:38
know, there was it was it was just maybe after slightly after a time
58:44
or maybe it was still very time when some people were saying, you know,
58:47
these visual directors, these MTV directors you know or whatever. I guess
58:54
meaning you know, obsession something visual or cutting a lot or I don't know
58:59
what it was. And when we worked, when we sat down and talked
59:02
about the Scriptica was one hundred percent good talking about everything character, plot,
59:13
um, you know, scene structure. He was fantastic. I mean I
59:19
never saw anything he wasn't good at. Actually, I mean he doesn't particularly
59:23
right himself, but I mean I'm just saying in terms of dealing with other
59:29
people that he's working artistically with. He he had everything. I mean they
59:38
were calling him. I don't know, I think I probably after seven I
59:43
think everybody got it, this guy is amazing whatever, but possibly before that.
59:51
Oh, the visually obsessed, well he isn't. He's obsessed with every
59:55
part, every element of the MO and he thinks about all of them.
1:00:02
Really. Well, get back in tom as. So many always said,
1:00:07
you know, we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and
1:00:16
now back to the show, right which is which is great? Yeah,
1:00:24
I know exactly what you mean, because sometimes you know, uh, I
1:00:30
remember, I remember when they were saying, like the MTV generation of directors,
1:00:34
the one they always pointed to was Guy Ritchie. Um, if you've
1:00:37
ever seen Lockstock or Snatch, I don't know if you have, Oh yeah
1:00:40
yeah, oh yeah absolutely. And you know, I think they were great
1:00:46
films. But like you know, when people were always saying native things about
1:00:51
him, and you know, in the reviews it was always about how it's
1:00:53
an MTV style of editing and shooting, et cetera. I just think it's
1:00:59
it was. Uh. I don't agree with that assessment. I just think
1:01:02
that sometimes when people don't know what they're actually looking at or maybe it's a
1:01:06
it breaks the mold of what they're used to. It kind of it kind
1:01:08
of breaks it kind of breaks that mold and they can't kind of handle that
1:01:13
change, if you know what I mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
1:01:15
well, I mean yeah, at the time I'm talking the period of time
1:01:19
I'm talking about, it was kind of like that was the the theme to
1:01:25
attack, you know, that was the that was the popular target for certain
1:01:32
critics. You know, not at all, but I remember that it sort
1:01:37
of was its own thing, like let's go after those IMPV directors. You
1:01:42
know. It's like, first of all, they're all different and saitly,
1:01:46
you know, they think about everything. I'm assuming. I mean, I
1:01:52
can't speak for everybody everyone who was accused of being that way, but you
1:01:57
know, I think they think about everything. Yeah, absolutely, I mean
1:02:02
and they and if anyone's talking about them, they have to be on something
1:02:06
right, right, If someone even knows your name, if somebody even knows
1:02:10
your name, you've got to be doing something right. Oh right, Yeah,
1:02:19
I heard the work goes and actually, you know, I am sort
1:02:22
of creeping up on the time, bore. I'm gonna have to go m
1:02:27
oh, no problem. Well, actually, Jim, I was gonna say
1:02:29
this what parameters were? So I told you it's it's uh, it's my
1:02:36
you know, it's just this uh, this idea that you know, because
1:02:38
we had I know, we had a time schedule, but uh, I
1:02:42
didn't know now that you were able to go a little bit over. But
1:02:45
you know, Jim, actually I just have one fuinal question. And just
1:02:47
in closing, do you want to put a is there anything you want to
1:02:52
say that we didn't talk about, or anything you want to say now to
1:02:54
kind of put a period at the end of this whole conversation, um,
1:03:00
any any party wisdom anything? Well, you know, I think I did
1:03:07
it. That was the thing I did was the three scripts with somebody starting.
1:03:10
I mean it's probably the other thing would be to read screenplays. So
1:03:16
I mean, and I mean a lot um I have read online somebody saying
1:03:23
that they've gotten this advice. Who's going to sit around and read? Well,
1:03:28
no, I don't. You know, I don't think you should spend
1:03:30
all your time reading screenplays when you're not writing. But it's a good idea
1:03:37
to have a flow of them going and kind of keep up with reading them.
1:03:45
I don't mean keep up with as in the most current you could be
1:03:47
reading screenplay from the thirties or something. But just keep reading them. You
1:03:54
know, doesn't have to consume all your time, doesn't have to consume that
1:03:59
much of your time. But it's a good idea to just because I mean,
1:04:03
you know, they're though they are in the format, but they're different.
1:04:06
There's different things about different screenplays. I think that. And you can
1:04:12
even read you know, there's different sort of setups. You can differ yourself.
1:04:16
Like I'm going to see a movie. I didn't read the screenplay.
1:04:19
It's by the way. It was just a better idea than doing it the
1:04:24
other way around, because read the screenplay that you go to the video you've
1:04:27
you've already read it or you know, if it's a classic or whatever,
1:04:34
you've seen it maybe a while back, go back and see what the it's
1:04:39
like to read the screenplay. And I think that is a good part of
1:04:46
the exercise of learning it. And it's And no, I don't think anyone
1:04:51
should be buried under a pile of scripts or something, or they're all in
1:04:57
the computer or whatever they are. Um, yeah, had I don't think
1:05:04
I'm not saying it has to be overdone, but I think it should be
1:05:10
sort of a steady practice, you know, because it helps. It could
1:05:16
be kind of like the fight club house. Jim. We're instead of you
1:05:19
know, reading a bunch of of of old magazines, it's just old screenplays.
1:05:25
They're just reading old screenplays. Yeah, I guess. But as I
1:05:32
said to you, I'm not telling anyone if they should overdo it. Umball
1:05:41
once as many as possible, and once it's just just just sort of like,
1:05:44
you know, just sort of keep keep them going. That's all,
1:05:49
you know, Jim. Before we go, I just want to tell you
1:05:51
a quick little anecdote very quickly. One time a friend of mine had to
1:05:58
It was it was like he called me up and he goes, hey,
1:06:00
Dave, can I ask you for help with something? He goes, I
1:06:02
have his friend. He lives, you know, in the middle of nowhere,
1:06:05
and he needs some help with some it stuff and this and that,
1:06:10
and I go, well, and you know, he talks me into it.
1:06:14
So you know, I say fine, because I did kind of sort
1:06:16
of go in that general direction anyway. It was gonna go pass where I
1:06:20
needed to go. But you see, you kinda. You gotta get where
1:06:24
I'm going with this. So the guy on the way goes, oh,
1:06:26
yeah, he goes their house. I call it the fight Clubhouse, and
1:06:30
I go why he goes, well, well, way do you see it?
1:06:33
So we get there, Jim, and the house was just like the
1:06:36
house and fight Club. It was like falling apart. There was like exposed
1:06:42
wires everywhere, and I'm just like, what the are they squatting in this
1:06:45
house? So eventually with the guy, so as I'm helping the guy out
1:06:49
with his computer, which thankfully, thank god, it was really really easy,
1:06:54
he starts telling me how Justin Bieber had been tweeting at him and I
1:06:58
look at him. I go Justin Bieber. He goes, yeah, he's
1:07:00
talking to me privately. He's on tour and he's talking me privately, and
1:07:03
he's like, you want to see these tweets? And I go, yes,
1:07:06
I want to see these tweets and direct messages and it's clearly some dude
1:07:11
just just fucking with them. And this guy had no clue, and I'm
1:07:15
like, all right, man, you know best to luck with that man?
1:07:17
And uh, I gotta go fix him. And he's like, hey,
1:07:19
you should come back sometime, you know, thanks for all this help.
1:07:21
And I'm like, now, no, it's cool, man, Yeah,
1:07:24
I'll definitely come back some time to the to the house. And uh
1:07:29
so I left there and I told my friend the whole when I when I
1:07:31
when we were leaving, I told my friend, I said, don't ever
1:07:33
ask me to do this again. I said, I literally felt like I
1:07:38
was about to get stabbed in that house at any point in time. But
1:07:40
uh, but it was funny because it was they called they called it the
1:07:46
fight clubhouse. Uh, and uh, it was just it was just that
1:07:49
that That's the anecdote I wanted to tell you, Jim, But um,
1:07:53
but you know, so just in closing, Jim was probably, yeah,
1:07:57
there's probably other houses like that all over I've seen a few houses like that
1:08:02
in Philadelphia, Um, because that's where I'm actually at. And I've seen
1:08:06
a few houses where it's just you walk in there there's you know, waters
1:08:10
dripping in from the third floor all the way down to the basement. Uh,
1:08:14
and you're like, why the hell has in this house just been you
1:08:15
know, bulldozed or demolished. But uh, you know, but so just
1:08:19
in closing, Gym, where can people find you out online? There's no
1:08:25
there's no seeing it. Um right, I could be bad about remember just
1:08:32
check in on anyway. That's it. Well, you know I mean you
1:08:40
and I unicate on Twitter. Who Jakay Jim Oules, thank you so much
1:08:47
for coming on, sir, Well, thank you, Dave. I'm glad
1:08:50
we did it. It was a lot of stuff. I want to thank
1:08:55
Dave so much for doing such a great job on this episode. If you
1:08:57
want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, head over
1:09:00
to the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv. Forward slash two eighty eight.
1:09:04
Thank you for listening, guys, As always, keep on writing no
1:09:08
matter what. We'll talk to you said. Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof
1:09:12
Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv.