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"Living Through The Seasons" with Annie F. Downs · The Weight

• 0:00
  Chris McAlilly: I'm Chris McAlilly.
• 0:01
  Eddie Rester: I'm Eddie Rester.
• 0:01
  Eddie Rester: Welcome to The Weight.
• 0:03
  Chris McAlilly: Welcome to The Weight. We're back for another year, and...
• 0:05
  Eddie Rester: Back for year...
• 0:06
  Chris McAlilly: Another season.
• 0:07
  Eddie Rester: Six.
• 0:07
  Chris McAlilly: This is going to be awesome. Today we have a great guest. I'm so excited for you guys to hear this conversation. We're talking to Annie F. Downs.
• 0:14
  Eddie Rester: Annie has written a lot over the last 10, 15 years about joy and faith and life.
• 0:18
  Eddie Rester: She has several great podcasts.
• 0:23
  Eddie Rester: She is releasing a new book, I think, the week that this comes out, a book that's helping families, pastors and churches, talk to children about grief and death.
• 0:35
  Chris McAlilly: We talk about seasons. She's talking about this on her podcast, That Sounds Fun. And we talk about the season of winter and how that shows up for us spiritually and emotionally. And you know, the winter seasons that will show up for kids. This book that she's releasing is called "Where Did TJ Go?" It's a children's book addressing themes of loss and grief, helping, you know, process the loss of loved one.
• 1:01
  Chris McAlilly: That's something that we're always needing help with. And so the conversation is helpful on that front, but also in other directions as well.
• 1:07
  Eddie Rester: She talks about her work with singles. She is a single woman at 44 years old, and just listening to her talk about how that call to begin to develop resources for that was just inspiring, the way that just kind of came together for her. And thankful that she is offering resources for churches, for pastors to begin to think about. You know, she says that 40% 6% of the population is single. Churches, and pastors aren't created for that. And so she offers some helpful insight for us as well. She's just delightful. I've been so looking forward to this conversation for a long, long time, and I think if you're listening today, you're going to be glad. You're going to be thankful for this conversation as well.
• 1:53
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, everybody's trying to find their calling, the way in which their unique story has something to offer the world. And she really helps to kind ofin the way in which she's done that for herself. And I think you're going to find some inspiration as well.
• 2:08
  Chris McAlilly: Thanks for being with us today on The Weight podcast. And if you like the conversation, we know you have have friends.
• 2:16
  Eddie Rester: Send it to two friends, just two.
• 2:18
  Chris McAlilly: Just two.
• 2:19
  Chris McAlilly: Two.
• 2:19
  Eddie Rester: Just like there were two animals coming into the ark.
• 2:22
  Chris McAlilly: No, we're just running a simple Ponzi scheme here.
• 2:24
  Eddie Rester: A Ponzi scheme.
• 2:25
  Chris McAlilly: If you're one person, send it to two people.
• 2:27
  Chris McAlilly: Just this is going to exponentially grow.
• 2:29
  Eddie Rester: Exponentially.
• 2:30
  Chris McAlilly: That's right.
• 2:30
  Chris McAlilly: [INTRO BEGINS AFTER THIS.] We're here today with Annie Downs. Annie, thanks so much for joining us.
• 3:20
  Annie Downs: Oh, I'm so glad to be here, you guys. Thanks for having me.
• 3:22
  Chris McAlilly: We were just talking about Eddie and you and I, we're all on the same, we grew up in the same clan.
• 3:31
  Annie Downs: Yeah.
• 3:31
  Chris McAlilly: And we're excited that you're here today.
• 3:34
  Annie Downs: Yeah, listen, Methodist to my roots. I've been Lenting as long as I've been allowed to Lent.
• 3:39
  Eddie Rester: [LAUGHTER] You know, a couple years ago, a real major evangelical pastor talked about, there's a Time magazine article about how he was rediscovering, replanting, Lent.
• 3:49
  Eddie Rester: I'm like, it never went away. I don't know what you're... I don't know why you're... Anyway.
• 3:54
  Chris McAlilly: That's a church season. One of the things that you've been talking about at the beginning of 2025, is just seasons. Seasons that are there that we experience, within the context of the world, you know, winter, spring, summer, and fall, and you've been exploring this and unpacking it, and it's wonderful. It's such a rich metaphor for thinking about our life, spiritually, emotionally, as we engage. I wonder where did you land on that? How did that become kind of the theme for you as you've entered into this year?
• 4:29
  Annie Downs: You know, what's been funny, Chris is, I think the majority of listeners wishes I was Australian and we had started with summer, because the like, only negative feedback we're getting are people are like, "I'm kind of tired of winter." I mean, one woman DMed me was like, "This is boring.
• 4:40
  Annie Downs: Can you stop?" And I was like,"Welcome to winter, sis."
• 4:43
  Eddie Rester: Welcome to winter.
• 4:43
  Eddie Rester: That's right.
• 4:44
  Annie Downs: We get it, yeah.
• 4:44
  Annie Downs: And so for me, when we were, last year, we celebrated 10 years of the podcast.
• 4:50
  Eddie Rester: Wow.
• 4:51
  Annie Downs: And in those 10 years, we have had pretty much the same setup. The whole 10 years is interviewing friends or people that I wish I was friends with about the work they are doing, and making sure I'm introducing friends to friends.
• 5:03
  Annie Downs: So letting anybody that wants to listen to the podcast be introduced to the friends who are making and creating work that I think really matters in our faith and in our life.
• 5:11
  Annie Downs: And kind of through the middle of last year, after doing something for 10 years, I just kind of thought, do I want it to be shaped the same? Is it? Do we just keep doing what we've been doing? And as I just... I mean, back to growing up Methodist, seasons have always mattered to me. I'm a big fan of the Christian calendar, and I've loved it because I grew up with it.
• 5:36
  Annie Downs: But as I started thinking through what would it look like to actually disciple my audience, not just lead them in conversations and expose them to work, but what would it look like to disciple them? And I thought, well, what I would like to do if I was sitting with them like I sit with the men and women that I disciple in real life. And I said, let's actually do a whole year of something.
• 5:59
  Annie Downs: What is the framework for that?
• 6:02
  Annie Downs: And I mean, I used to teach elementary school, and so I grew up. I mean, I got trained in how to teach things. And so I thought, what's the framework for this? And I thought, well, what if we did winter, spring, summer, fall, and kind of built around those conversations. And so far, it has been so impactful in my life, and seemingly in a lot of the listeners lives.
• 6:24
  Chris McAlilly: I just, one of the things I was thinking about as I was kind of looking at what you're doing and thinking about it. I think we live in such a media-saturated environment, and people are all over the place, and so if you come back to a single voice, or if you're intersecting with an institution or, you know, a local entity, or we call it a church, you know, it's helpful to be oriented in a single story over the course of a longer time horizon. That way you come in and out of... You don't have to... You can miss an episode and you're not lost in the story when you come back in.
• 6:59
  Annie Downs: Right.
• 7:00
  Chris McAlilly: Is that part of what you're trying to set up? Is that kind of in the background for you? Or, if not, what are some of the other factors that kind of led you in that direction?
• 7:10
  Annie Downs: Yeah, I think that is, Chris, probably more than I realized that was in the background. Because what I would like to have happen is for years to come, when people go, "I am really suffering. You know what?
• 7:18
  Annie Downs: I can go listen to winter of
• 7:22
  That Sounds Fun: The Seasons." Or, "Man, I do not know what to do with all that is going on in my life. It feels too busy and I don't know how to slow down.
• 7:29
  That Sounds Fun: Okay, let's go grab some summer episodes and listen through that." So our hope after this year is to really package it in a way
• 7:34
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, super smart.
• 7:36
  Chris McAlilly: online that's really easy to find and really attainable. Not for money, but just literally packages on the website where
• 7:41
  Annie Downs: But we have to build it first.
• 7:42
  Annie Downs: you can go to anniefdowns.com/seasons and you can get like, okay, here's all the winter. Here's the questions we answered. You can just click one button and get help with what you need help with.
• 7:55
  Eddie Rester: Yeah.
• 7:55
  Chris McAlilly: That's super smart.
• 7:55
  Annie Downs: So we're, everybody's kind of watching us build this resource that we hope lasts and serves for a decade to
• 8:02
  Eddie Rester: Well, what's so great about it is that most of come.
• 8:05
  Eddie Rester: us think we're all in the same season all the time. It doesn't, you know... "Oh, we're just cruising through." And there's never, there's no one that gives us the freedom of, hey, right now you can claim that you're in winter. I deal with a lot of pastors, a lot of right now, where I am in my life, a lot of pastors who's come to me and they're just tired. They're worn out, and they don't know how to claim summer. They don't know how to claim that time of letting go and being free and just having that conversation of, I don't have to do 7,000 things today or this month or...
• 8:43
  Eddie Rester: So in your own life, where are some touch points for you with kind of the different seasons? I know part of, part of what y'all are going to do on That Sounds Fun the podcast this year is, you're going to spend a lot of time sharing those moments when you've experienced those seasons. As you think about kind of those, the seasons, what, any of those touch points for you that you're finding are important and it will be important to share this year?
• 9:10
  Annie Downs: Well, I think the thing I am learning the most profoundly, probably, is what it's like to have seasons within seasons and and being allowed to say that. Of going like, "yeah, it's winter outside for the northern hemisphere. It's winter outside, but my life is thriving," and some people feel really guilty saying that. Or people who go like, "Hey, I'm looking around, and everybody else is having a great time, and I'm still suffering from last year." And then they go, "Well, I'm not allowed to say that, because here comes spring." And so it's this permission. I'm experiencing this permission to go, Hey, it may be in one area of my life, it feels like springtime, and new things are budding and things are happening. And then there are other places where we are just like harvesting, where we've, like done the work and the seeds have grown, and now it is time to get in the fields. And there are places that are lying dormant.
• 9:58
  Annie Downs: And so I think that may be for me, Eddie, is when I'm thinking about how I'm pastoring and where I am leading, the thing I am trying to lead the most through when I'm leading myself is it's okay if this feels like more than one season. That's probably really true. And in that, what does it look like to connect with God in that, to connect with each other in that, and to tell the truth inside of that? And that has been really helpful to me.
• 10:25
  Eddie Rester: Even when you think about the passage of seasons outside, I mean, it's been 70 degrees this week, in mid-winter in Oxford, Mississippi. Next Wednesday, it's forecast to be snow. And so there's this even inside seasons, there's this roller coaster of...
• 10:40
  Annie Downs: That's right.
• 10:40
  Eddie Rester: Emotion and experience and where things are and what you're seeing and what you're not seeing. So, yeah, I think that's extremely helpful.
• 10:47
  Eddie Rester: One of the resources right now that I think is kind of a winter resource, a book that you've written, I want to touch base on it, is, "Where Did TJ Go?" A book that you've written for children who have experienced a loss. And the story behind it, I think is so beautiful, and, one, I want to thank you for that, because as pastors, we get asked a lot, how can we help our kids with grief? So tell us a little bit about the genesis of the book and what you hope the book offers.
• 11:20
  Annie Downs: Yeah, that's exactly how I ended up writing it, Eddie, is that I was calling pastors and therapists and parents and saying, "Can you give me the Gospel-centric book on grief for kids? What is it?
• 11:31
  Annie Downs: I've never needed it before. Now I need it. What is it?" And there was no answer.
• 11:36
  Eddie Rester: Right.
• 11:37
  Annie Downs: There were a couple of... I got some sprinklings of different, but there wasn't the answer of like... Because there is another grief book that a lot of people talk about for kids, but it doesn't have a Gospel story in it. And so that's what people would say, "Ah, I don't know if there's one like that, but here's this one." And I was like, What are we doing? Where's the book? And the reason we needed it in our family is my sister and her husband had, at the time, a two-year-old, my nephew named Sam. He's perfect.
• 12:02
  Annie Downs: He's practically an idol in my life. I have to repent of it more than I should. He's the best. And they were pregnant again. And TJ was born with trisomy 18, which is a life limiting diagnosis from the start. Your lungs don't fully develop. Your heart doesn't fully develop. And a lot of those babies that are born with trisomy 18 do not make it out of the hospital. They don't live days, even hours.
• 12:28
  Annie Downs: And so from the pretty early in my sister's pregnancy, we knew TJ was sick and was really sick.
• 12:34
  Annie Downs: And as the summer of '22 got closer when he was going to be born, we needed to talk to Sam about, "Look, your mom has been getting more and more pregnant.
• 12:48
  Annie Downs: This will not be--barring God doing the miracle we want him to do--this will not be the little brother that a lot of your friends have." And what was happening at the same time is a lot of other people in our community were having babies and having second children and having little brothers and sisters. And so he was watching that, but about to have a very different experience.
• 13:13
  Annie Downs: And so that's really, I mean, I'll tell you quickly. I was driving. I live in Nashville most of the time. I live part time in New York City, which is where I am today, but I was in Nashville. I was driving from Franklin to Nashville, which is about a 30 minute drive, 25 minute drive, about two weeks before TJ was born. And I thought, okay, if there isn't a book that already exists, I just should tell Sam a story. I know how to. I don't know. I don't make casseroles. I'm not... I don't do any of that, but I can write a story.
• 13:40
  Annie Downs: And so I just got my phone and I told myself a voice memo, a story, just sobbing in the car of like, hey, this is what we thought was going to happen.
• 13:50
  Annie Downs: Where did TJ go? Here's where TJ went. Here's what heaven is like. Here's what it could be like. If you know, if the enemy comes to steal, kill, and destroy, then the actual opposite of that, Jesus says abundant life. But the opposite of stealing is a gift. The opposite of killing is giving life. The opposite of destruction is building, right?
• 14:08
  Annie Downs: And so if all that was true, steal, kill, and destroy was going to be true in TJ's life, what was the opposite of what heaven was going to offer? And so I told Sam that, and then ended the book saying, and it is okay if you're still sad, because we are, too. And that is part of this, is that we are going to hold joy and suffering.
• 14:30
  Annie Downs: Kind of the through line of the book is there is good news even in sad stories, and that's the Gospel story.
• 14:36
  Annie Downs: And so after TJ was born, he ended up living 56 days, thanks be to God and medical technology. And then after he passed away, that summer of '22, we read Sam the book for a while. I mean, y'all, I just, like, literally, voice memoed myself. And then I went home and typed it up, printed it at the local print shop. And put...
• 14:58
  Annie Downs: Like, I stole clip art off the internet. I mean, I was just always only writing this for Sam, and I've done that other times. There are two other books that exist that I've written for families that were just gifts to them in a season, that have never been published.
• 15:13
  Annie Downs: But then after a few months, I sent it to my agent, and I said, Hey, will you just see if the publisher would be interested in this? Because this is... We were looking for this, and if we were looking for this, there are a lot of families looking for this. And thanks be to God and Revell, they decided to publish it, and it has served a lot of families already. It's been wild.
• 15:36
  Eddie Rester: I just I'm thankful for the gift, because again, as pastors, families ask us all the time, and there's just not something that tells the story for kids. You know, one of my favorite quotes, every Easter I preach, people get this quote. They're probably tired of it. But Frederick Buechner, "The resurrection means the worst thing is never the last thing." Just that gospel narrative. How did Sam receive the story? What was his... I mean, if you can share, if you can't, yeah, that's fine as well.
• 16:06
  Annie Downs: Yeah, of course. So my sister, Tatum, is the co author, and here's why is that.
• 16:08
  Annie Downs: As she started reading it to Sam, there were pages he was getting bored, and there were parts that he didn't, that he was kind of like, "This is too many words."
• 16:16
  Eddie Rester: [LAUGHTER]
• 16:18
  Annie Downs: And so Tatum started working on it with me, my sister, and started going like, "hey, this page is good about the zoo." We did, there's like a zoo in heaven page. She was like, "but there's just too many words. He's bored and that want to finish the book." And we want him to finish the book. And so at the time, you know, he's two, three years old. And so she really helped make it better.
• 16:38
  Annie Downs: And he really likes it now. Now that it's out in the world, now that people talk to him about TJ, he's four, almost five, we're having some other experiences of him kind of not wanting to read it sometimes, you know, and other times wanting to dress like he dresses in the book.
• 17:01
  Annie Downs: I mean, it's so generous of my sister and brother-in-law and nephew to like... The illustrations of them look just like them. I mean, this is them.
• 17:06
  Annie Downs: This is their story. This is their real names. None of that had to be the same, and they chose to do that. And so he's having a lot of experiences around it. We had a party a couple of weeks ago in my hometown, and my sister invited all the doctors and nurses and caretakers that were a part of TJ's life, and Sam wanted to wear his big brother t-shirt that is two sizes too small.
• 17:32
  Annie Downs: And so you just kind of... One of the gifts of this book is that in the back David Thomas, who's a family therapist, and from Raising Boys and Girls podcast, he wrote a letter in the back to parents to kind of help parents parent through this content, because that's what parents... While parents are deeply grieving the loss of a child, they are having to parent other children through grief.
• 17:54
  Annie Downs: It's nearly impossible. I do not know how they do it. So we're hoping this book will kind of be this go-between that helps them.
• 18:00
  Annie Downs: And one of the things David says is let the kids lead. And so we're letting Sam lead. When Sam wants to read it, we read it.
• 18:06
  Annie Downs: When Sam wants to talk about TJ, we do. When he wants to look at pictures, we do. And letting him kind of be the boss of when he wants to process the loss of his
• 18:15
  Chris McAlilly: One of the things that I'm hearing in this brother.
• 18:16
  Chris McAlilly: is one of the things that happens... There's so much of our life that's under our control, and one of the things that is just, it's seemingly...
• 18:25
  Chris McAlilly: It's... The fact that we can't, in 2025, keep children from dying, is one of those realities that I think we all feel it's certainly beyond our control.
• 18:43
  Chris McAlilly: And so within the narrative of grief, for any individual, you know, one of the things that I think is so important is giving back agency.
• 18:53
  Annie Downs: Yeah, that's good.
• 18:54
  Chris McAlilly: And I just think that what I hear you saying is that for a child experiencing grief, you need multiple things.
• 19:01
  Chris McAlilly: You need a story to kind of orient you in this.
• 19:05
  Annie Downs: Yes.
• 19:05
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, because the death of a child is traumatic. And we have a friend of ours, Kim Wagner, who has written a book on preaching in the midst of trauma. And one of the things she talks about is that trauma is a shattering event. It's a narrative shattering event. And so you know, what you need is a story to help you navigate that which has been shattered, which is the hope and expectations of what your story would be as a family, and you also need agency. You need the capacity to say, now is a time where I want to or need to engage this, and now is a time where I really just want to be a kid and not do that right now. And I think it's beautiful the way in which, you know, David has given that language, the language of letting the children lead.
• 19:52
  Chris McAlilly: And I do think if you're a parent, or if you're a pastor, or you're someone that...
• 19:56
  Eddie Rester: A grandparent.
• 19:56
  Chris McAlilly: Or a grandparent, and you're navigating the journey, so much of it is wanting to kind of fix what is shattered and it's not possible. And what is needed is the time and space for the child to kind of figure out their own way through it. I just think it's beautiful the way in which the book has kind of facilitated this within the context of your family.
• 20:16
  Chris McAlilly: I wonder if you would be willing to share, you know this co-creating of a narrative that your sister and you have done together. Could you talk about that, just within your relationship, and kind of within the journey for her as well?Because I do think that, you know, giving them the opportunity for the for this death to have a greater meaning and ultimately a greater impact, I think, is such a beautiful gift that you guys as a family are offering the world. I wonder if you could speak to that.
• 20:49
  Annie Downs: Yeah, that, I mean that feels profound to me too, that I'm the oldest, and so there is a lot of caretaking in me, of like, making sure everybody's all right. And in this scenario, in TJ's life, that played really well, because I lived in Nashville. Everyone else is in Atlanta, and I would come, I was doing my job during the week, and then coming down on the weekends, especially the five weeks that TJ was in hospice care in my sister's home. 24/7 care of an infant that's dying is just, as you said, Chris, yeah, shattering kind of trauma.
• 21:25
  Annie Downs: And so I got to go home. I would go to Atlanta, and I'd be like, where are the nurses, where are the doctors, where's the food, where's the friends? I would just go and soldier everybody, and then have to go back to Nashville to work for a couple of days. And so that really worked great for me and my sister, because that is the role I do really well. And then this kind of fits in that same thing, Chris, is that I've been an author for 10 years. 12 years, I started this full time in November, I'm sorry, April of 2012, so 12 years this has been my full time job. This is my 13th year. Has that all been leading up to the opportunity to give my nephew a longer life than 56 days? Maybe. Maybe. If we walked after this one, I would feel fine about that.
• 22:14
  Annie Downs: And so it is, some of that it is. And you'll see in the book, like there are a couple of illustrations, like we didn't make the streets gold. And one of the reasons we didn't make the streets gold, even though the Bible says in heaven the streets are gold, is we really wanted kids to see heaven as normal.
• 22:29
  Eddie Rester: Right.
• 22:30
  Annie Downs: And we didn't want it to be so fantastical--even though heaven will be fantastical and have streets of gold--we wanted them to have this connection point of like, hey, maybe where my sibling is isn't that different than where I am.And I needed to do that for me. I need to do that for TJ and my sister, and I need to do that for Tatum and for Jacob, her husband. And so some of what we did together is in memory of TJ, and some of what we did together is for Sam, and some of what we did together is that the enemy doesn't win here. And getting to make this book and serve other families, feels like... I have a sword tattoo I got in Israel on my arm.
• 23:12
  Chris McAlilly: You have a sword tattoo?!
• 23:14
  Annie Downs: Yeah, dude.
• 23:15
  Chris McAlilly: That's amazing!
• 23:15
  Annie Downs: I have a sword tattoo. And part of it is this, like Joan of Arc, I have a sword tattoo. And a little bit of"Where Did TJ Go?" is reminding the enemy I have a sword tattoo.
• 23:30
  Annie Downs: And I'm not picking a fight. I'm not dumb. I understand the authority of heaven and earth, and I understand I'm not picking a fight. What I am saying is what you intended for evil, the Lord is using for good. One in four women have a miscarriage, and that is a lot of families that lose hope. And what the enemy intended to steal our hope... while he did, he did. I mean, TJ is dead. It's awful.
• 23:54
  Annie Downs: It's awful. It's not at all what we wanted, but what God is doing two years, two and a half years later, in this story, is a multiplication of hope that we could not have imagined when we were losing him.
• 24:13
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, the thing that comes to mind is, you know, the early church, they talked about the martyrs, those who were witnesses. And there's the sense that the death of the saints, the death of the martyrs, were the seeds of the church. And there's this thing that can happen, you know, when death is considered within the reality of the story of life and death and resurrection, that there is a kind of multiplication. I love the phrase "the multiplication of hope," because there's so many people that... Maybe grief is the thing. Maybe, you know, there are plenty of people that we know that Eddie and I have pastored together, that have lost children, and that is a terrible reality. It's one of the hardest things to go through, but where that puts someone is kind of in the pit of grief, despair, sometimes depression.
• 25:15
  Chris McAlilly: And what is needed more than anything, and I think what pastors and caretakers and counselors are always trying to figure out is, how do you help somebody grasp, in the midst of winter, the seed of hope that could kind of move them forward?
• 25:31
  Chris McAlilly: And what I hear you saying is that that's kind of the work, that's the work of the storyteller. It's the work of the teacher. And you're taking that on, not only for your family with the sword tattoo, which I love, but you know, for the church more broadly. And so thank you.
• 25:48
  Eddie Rester: Tell the story of nothing is lost in God's economy. In the economy of the kingdom, even death can tell the story of life. In the economy of the kingdom, even great pain becomes the thing that one day can give you great joy. And so, yeah, I'm so thankful for this.
• 26:10
  Eddie Rester: You said just a minute ago, that 12 years ago--and I want to shift gears just a little bit--12 years ago, you kind of stepped into this new writing life, and you were a teacher before that.
• 26:23
  Annie Downs: Yeah.
• 26:23
  Eddie Rester: Were you an elementary school teacher? Or...
• 26:25
  Annie Downs: Yes! Of course I was!
• 26:26
  Eddie Rester: I thought you were. I was like...
• 26:27
  Annie Downs: Fourth and fifth grade.
• 26:29
  Eddie Rester: Of course you were, yeah. My wife was a middle school principal.
• 26:32
  Chris McAlilly: Which is not as good as fourth and fifth grade.
• 26:34
  Eddie Rester: It is not.
• 26:34
  Annie Downs: No.
• 26:35
  Chris McAlilly: Fourth and fifth grade is much better.
• 26:36
  Annie Downs: She's a better woman than me.
• 26:38
  Eddie Rester: She's going to heaven. For a lot of reasons.
• 26:41
  Chris McAlilly: Mostly because she's married to Eddie
• 26:42
  Eddie Rester: Married to me.
• 26:42
  Eddie Rester: Yeah, so.
• 26:43
  Annie Downs: [LAUGHTER]
• 26:45
  Eddie Rester: And your friend May can tell you all about that.
• 26:47
  Chris McAlilly: [LAUGHTER]
• 26:47
  Annie Downs: That's right!
• 26:49
  Eddie Rester: But what was that jump like for you? Because it seems like, I mean, that's just a risky, I'm going to put myself out there for the world to see... Every time I try to, when, you know, we preach every week, but that's a little different than beginning to write and, you know, offering up your life in that way. So what was that like for you?
• 27:08
  Annie Downs: It is different, but it's not super different than what y'all do, in that God has given all of us, I think, literally everyone listening, a unique story that the world needs to hear, because there are ways that you, every you, there are ways that you talk about God in the Gospel that make sense to people that will never understand how I talk about God and the Gospel. And so I think it matters so much that we share our stories, whether it's from a stage or in a book or an Instagram account or across the table at coffee, because the uniqueness of God in each of us is what draws other people to him. And so for me, I loved teaching school. It's all I ever wanted to do. I read the book"Christy" when I was in middle school about an elementary school teacher in the mountains of Tennessee, and I was like,"That's it. That's my job. I want to teach forever." And what I actually think is true is I do think I only have one skill set. I just think I've found multiple ways of expressing it. And part of that is a need to pay the bills, and I just kept finding different ways to express it. But so I taught school for five years, and my last year of teaching is when opportunities to write and actually speak at my church's youth group started opening up.
• 28:22
  Annie Downs: And through that school year, I was kind of like, Oh man, I'm like, writing at night and speaking at events on the weekends and trying to teach school Monday through Friday.
• 28:34
  Annie Downs: I'm not sure this is sustainable.
• 28:38
  Annie Downs: And then I thought I would... At the time, I was 20--let me math.
• 28:44
  Annie Downs: I was 26. I'm 44 now. I was 26 and I was, at the time, I thought, "hey, if you're going to be old and single," lol, hello, 44 and single. But at the time, I thought, "if you're just going to be single, why not jump and try this other thing?
• 29:01
  Annie Downs: Schools aren't going anywhere." Like, you'll always have a teaching job if you want to go back to a teaching job. So that's really what made me give it a go, is I had a pretty secure safety net for the first couple of years of writing and speaking. I thought that could go back to teaching if I needed to, until... And I really thought about it. There were a couple of times where I really was like, this is dumb. I should... I have less money than I had teach in school, which was an insane sentence.
• 29:28
  Eddie Rester: Yes.
• 29:29
  Eddie Rester: Yes.
• 29:29
  Annie Downs: And I was exhausted. And the spiritual And it was very heavy. And I think the way you difference was pretty significant. Even though I was teaching in a public school and felt very called and like I was get stronger is working out with weights that are too big to on mission with God, there was still a spiritual difference lift. So it wasn't that my character couldn't hold what God when I'm responsible for other people's spiritual lives, as had given me, it's that he had never asked me to hold the y'all profoundly know as pastors.
• 30:03
  Annie Downs: weight that I was now working out with. And I wanted to quit.
• 30:08
  Annie Downs: And then I had two dreams, and in both dreams I was teaching school, and in both dreams I had signed a teaching contract, and I threw up on it. And I woke up and it was---and I don't ever have dreams from God. And I woke up after both of those dreams and was like, this is God telling me not to go back to that.
• 30:25
  Eddie Rester: Yeah.
• 30:26
  Annie Downs: And so I'm glad, and I didn't. But like I said, honestly, Eddie, I'm doing the same thing I did when I taught the water cycle. I'm just now teaching Gospel things, or life things, or processing my own story. But I still, I like to say, I entertain people until they learn something. And that was true with fourth graders, and it's true on Sunday mornings at CrossPoint church, or anybody else who has me come and speak, and it's true on the podcast, and it's true in books.
• 30:54
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah so I think that one of the things that...
• 30:57
  Chris McAlilly: It's not just teaching. t's entertaining, and the entertainment has created a community around this phrase,"that sounds fun." I wonder. You know, would you pick a different phrase after a decade, or is that still one that you're fired up about?
• 31:12
  Annie Downs: That's a great question. Would I pick a different thing? I love that I walk into a room where people barely know me and they think I'm fun. That's a great thing to go with.
• 31:25
  Eddie Rester: That's not a bad entry. Yeah.
• 31:26
  Annie Downs: I mean, if you're going to be known for something, be known for being assumed to be fun, that's great. So I don't mind that part at all. There are times where our content, especially like this year, on the podcast where we're doing seasons.
• 31:41
  Chris McAlilly: I thought you guys were fun, and now it's all this winter podcast.
• 31:45
  Annie Downs: That's right. Or when we do, like racial justice conversations and when we do sexual abuse conversations on the podcast, you do have a moment of awkward about the title. That being said, I probably wouldn't change it. I don't know what else it could have been.
• 32:02
  Annie Downs: But now we have"That Sounds Fun" the book and
• 32:02
  Chris McAlilly: Right.
• 32:05
  Chris McAlilly: That Sounds Fun Network that supports 30 plus podcasts, That Sounds Fun the podcast. I mean, it has, it has carried beyond the word into its own brand, and I'm grateful for that.
• 32:17
  Chris McAlilly: So why? Why do you think that is? Why do you think that a community was kind of gathered around that specific idea? Maybe, was it timing? Is it just the force of your work ethic and, you know, your passion? Was it the content? I mean, why do you think it resonated in the cultural moment?
• 32:37
  Eddie Rester: Because it really did.
• 32:39
  Annie Downs: Thanks. Yeah, I think it was right timing for a lot, in a lot of ways, especially during COVID. There was a 2020, and 2021 were two hard and extremely impactful years for our work. We made a lot of impact. We had a lot of people listening and watching and reading. And I think it's because when you boil it down, what people actually want is relief, and they call that fun.
• 33:04
  Annie Downs: And so there is redeemed versions of that, and there are unredeemed versions of that, and there's escapism and there's relief.
• 33:17
  Annie Downs: And people wanted, particularly in 2020, people wanted to know how to find relief that would not harm them. And we had, we were five years in to teaching that. And so I think that really helped people.
• 33:34
  Chris McAlilly: What is relief like? How would you define it like? What, you know, that doesn't harm people? What does that look like?
• 33:40
  Annie Downs: Yes. So I mean, I think if you think about a whale, a whale is a really helpful analogy for me. And when we think about my nephew Sam, and how he's processed losing TJ and other grief in our lives, is that a whale cannot stay in the bottom of the ocean. A whale has to come up and blow air out of its blow hole. But a whale does not survive if you take it out of the ocean. And so we have to learn how to not do escapism that says, "Take me out of the ocean. I don't want to feel any of this," but to have relief that lets us blow air out of our blow holes.
• 34:12
  Annie Downs: So what it looks like to me is, can you, do you need an afternoon on a Thursday that you take off from work and you go walk at a park? Or you go watch, you go binge a TV show for an afternoon. If you binge TV for a week, I think you're escaping, and I think there's something to be dealt with. But if you do it for an afternoon, me too. If you eat ice cream after dinner, and you go to Dairy Queen with your friends after dinner, and y'all sit around and laugh about it and get your Blizzards, I think that's great. If you're sneakily going to Dairy Queen twice a day, because you're in pain, you're escaping, and we need to talk about it. And so I think it's learning what those lines are for you.
• 34:52
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah. So it's almost like, you know, because I've know that you've used the phrase that fun can be spiritual discipline. But what I hear you saying is that it can also be...
• 35:05
  Chris McAlilly: The thing that you think of as relief or fun, it can also be escapism and a problem.
• 35:11
  Annie Downs: Two sides to that coin, yeah.
• 35:12
  Chris McAlilly: And so it's not just that it's a spiritual
• 35:12
  Annie Downs: It's probably your crutch. That's exactly right.
• 35:14
  Annie Downs: discipline. The same exact thing could also be the... That could be the pain, you know. It could be the thing that you're using That's exactly right. The things you enjoy the most are the to try to get out of the situation.
• 35:25
  Annie Downs: things you want to over enjoy when you're in pain.
• 35:28
  Eddie Rester: Right. Yeah, and I think, I think that's true for a lot of spiritual disciplines as well. I mean, every spiritual discipline has its place in our relationship with Christ and one another, but at other times, it can become the barrier that prevents us from taking next steps. I think about, please nobody hear this the wrong way when I say it prayer. Sometimes there's a moment that you stop praying and start acting, and if you're just caught. Mark Batterson talks a little bit about that, I think, in one of his books, is that there comes a moment where prayer has to release you back into the world, back into that moment, back into that pain, back into that injustice. And if not, then you're simply doing prayer for prayer's sake.
• 36:15
  Annie Downs: So we just heard John Tyson teach on this, and he said, the whole sermon was on contending prayer and like, what does it look like to, like, get lost in prayer. You're like, sobbing, and you're gross and you're like, sweating, and it's hours. And then he says, and in the end, often, when you are that interceding for someone or something, God turns your heart so towards them that you become the answer to the prayer.
• 36:41
  Eddie Rester: Yeah.
• 36:41
  Annie Downs: And I thought, Oh, he just tricked everybody in this room. He just thought...
• 36:43
  Annie Downs: They thought he was telling them to pray. He was telling them to pray and then to get up and go be, be what they need, what the people they're praying for needs, yeah.
• 36:52
  Eddie Rester: One of the ways that you've really turned your heart towards some folks is your work with single adults. I mean, you've talked about, you know, 44 years old, single, and you've put out a resource, not for pastors, I want to talk about that in just a sec, but you have the Single Person's League, I think the name of it as well.
• 37:08
  Eddie Rester: And what I love about that is, there's a podcast or resources, but it's kind of behind a wall, so it's not just something that everybody gets to drift into and out of. So say a little bit about that work and why it's important to you, and maybe some of the fruit that you're seeing from that right now.
• 37:27
  Annie Downs: You know, it is out. We'll pretend like with this it and being recorded and everybody's hearing it, but I'll tell you that one of the hardest things God's ever asked me to do is to step into leading a community of single people. And y'all can get it as pastors.
• 37:37
  Annie Downs: None of us sign up to make our pain point our public point, and yet, what God seems to do in a lot of our lives. I mean Moses with his stutter, right? I mean, just what God seems to do with a lot of lives we see over and over is the... Esther comes to mind too, of like trafficked into a situation and then asked to save the nation. Right?
• 38:04
  Annie Downs: I have never been married. Would love to be married if y'all know anybody. Never been married and have for my entire career kind of gone like, Hey, that's my personal life. That's not what I teach on or talk about or make my public part of my life. And two summers ago, summer of '23, we did a dating series on That Sounds Fun, called "Summer Lovin'." And at the start of it, I did an Instagram story where I said, just a reel, and I said, Hey, are you single? I would love to tell you something. I'm not selling anything. I just want to send you an email and tell you something. Can I have your email address?
• 38:45
  Annie Downs: And we were hoping for 1,000 people that we could tell about the series. We had 1,000 email addresses by the end of that day. We had 20,000 email addresses by the end of the week. And suddenly it felt like the Lord was going, it's not that there are not other resources. It's that 20,000 people wanted Annie F. Downs to talk about her singleness. And I was, like, uninterested.
• 39:07
  Annie Downs: Uninterested. That is not what I thought was going to happen here. And the more I sat with the Lord about it, just like we were just talking about with prayer, Eddie, the more I sat with the Lord about it, the more the Lord was like, Are you willing? He never made... The kindest thing about him is he never makes us. I could have said no. He just kept saying, Would you? But would you? If I'm doing this, would you?
• 39:30
  Annie Downs: And so that's how Single Purpose League started, is we went, okay, well, then let's build a community of people who really want to talk about this. And the interesting thing you guys has been, because I'm an adult single Christian, that group of people trust me, because I'm still in the middle of it with them. Because I'm an ordained pastor at Cross Point Church, and because I have been doing this for 10 years, and because you guys have seen me and trusted me, and I haven't publicly fallen in a way yet, I'm trusted by pastors.
• 40:00
  Annie Downs: Pastors really care about single people. Singles feel that they And so I have this window of time that I do not know how long are not seen by the church. And it's just this disconnect.
• 40:03
  Annie Downs: it lasts, I'll either get married or I'll get scooped up Everybody actually wants the same thing, and so that's why we by a pterodactyl, or Jesus is going to come back. Something is going to change my influence in this bridge. But for today, I'm did that resource, Eddie. It's totally free, if y'all will trusted by singles and I'm trusted by pastors. And when I share the link. People could just have it. It's just listen to both groups, they tell me the same thing: that they anniefdowns.com/pastoringsingles, and it is just a couple of pages of a PDF that is like, here are some questions you could be want the other group to feel seen by them.
• 40:22
  Annie Downs: asking. Here's some sermon examples. Here's some events that singles will actually show up at in your church, because single people want to be seen by the church, and pastors really, really care.
• 41:00
  Eddie Rester: And one of the things I think I've recognized as a pastor, is that, when I first started, started out in this a long time ago, the late'90s or mid '90s...
• 41:04
  Eddie Rester: You don't even have to go back.
• 41:04
  Eddie Rester: We just know it's long time ago.
• 41:13
  Annie Downs: Yeah.
• 41:13
  Eddie Rester: People were getting married in the young 20s. Almost nobody gets married in the young 20s anymore. So the population of single adults who are wanting to be seen by the church.
• 41:28
  Annie Downs: Yes.
• 41:28
  Eddie Rester: Is so much more significant. And what I loved when I was scrolling through--again, it's just a couple pages. I was expecting to have to read a book to look at that. But it's, it's questions.
• 41:36
  Eddie Rester: It's how do you talk from the stage? How do you talk from the pulpit so that you are more aware of the examples that you use and the language that you use that begins to open the door, rather than have someone say, "Well, pastor's not talking about me today."
• 41:54
  Annie Downs: Yes. And I'll tell you, Eddie, the thing that I have so much sympathy for our pastor friends, because the majority of y'all, our peers, are leading the church, right.
• 42:03
  Annie Downs: 40s and 50s are who are leading the church right now, in most places. There are, there's outliers, of course, but it's 40s and 50s. 20 and 30 years ago, when y'all were in seminary, this was not being taught.
• 42:13
  Eddie Rester: Exactly.
• 42:13
  Annie Downs: So you were not taught how to pastor singles.
• 42:16
  Annie Downs: Also. Y'all got married then, because pastors had this narrative of, "if I'm gonna be a lead pastor, I need to be married." And so y'all got married in your 20s. You got
• 42:24
  Eddie Rester: That's right.
• 42:27
  Eddie Rester: trained in your 20s, and here you are in your 40s and 50s, and we're saying, "will you please come breathe the air on Mars?" And y'all are like, "I've never been to Mars." And we're like,"How dare you not know how to breathe on Mars?" So you've got all these singles yelling at you that you don't know how to breathe on Mars. And I'm saying to the singles, go tell them about Mars. They've never been here.
• 42:45
  Eddie Rester: Correct.
• 42:46
  Annie Downs: And I'm saying to the pastors, will you please...
• 42:48
  Annie Downs: We understand you have not lived this. But 46% of the culture, 46% of people in the US are unmarried, never married, divorced, or widowed. That is half of your church, half of your church, half of your community. And that was not the case in 1970 it was 18%.
• 43:08
  Eddie Rester: Wow.
• 43:09
  Annie Downs: 18%. That is so different.
• 43:12
  Eddie Rester: That's stunning.
• 43:13
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, no doubt.
• 43:14
  Annie Downs: That is so different. So God bless our pastors for trying. I know y'all are trying.
• 43:18
  Chris McAlilly: So we can speak in that direction. I also wonder if you might just offer a word of encouragement if there's someone that's listening to the podcast that's in the season of singleness, either has always lived in that season, or is in that season because of a death in their family with their partner...
• 43:37
  Eddie Rester: Or a breakup.
• 43:38
  Chris McAlilly: Or spouse, or someone who's experiencing a divorce or a breakup. What encouragement, what hope would you offer for somebody who's in that season of winter, for what could come in the future?
• 43:51
  Annie Downs: Yeah, especially for those longing to be married, there are... The other thing that is really interesting is there are more singles than ever that are satisfied being single.
• 43:59
  Annie Downs: And so whether they call it the gift of singleness or not. I don't know. Most of them are not believers, right? But they're going, I'm fine. I have the money I need. I have the life I need. I have the friends I need.
• 44:06
  Annie Downs: I have the sex I need. You know, like they're kind of meeting all their own needs.
• 44:13
  Annie Downs: And so for our faith friends who are longing to be married again, or for the first time, you know what I would say, Chris, is that you have to fight for hope. And the thing that has gone sideways for your friends, who are in their 30s and 40s, that are, and older, that are not married yet, or not married currently, is somewhere along the line, the teaching in the church was when you get married, comma. And it was, you'll get to have sex.
• 44:46
  Annie Downs: When you get married, comma, you will know what you're called to you and your partner will be a power team for the gospel. When you get married, you will have family. When you get married.
• 44:57
  Annie Downs: And so there was this finish line. .
• 44:59
  Eddie Rester: Yeah.
• 44:59
  Annie Downs: And so. So but what has happened is, those of us If that... And I have to choose to believe whether it feels like that are in this age bracket, we are not mad at the pastors who taught us that. We're mad at God because God has not given us the thing that we've wanted because we were told it was the key to the life we wanted 20 years ago.
• 45:16
  Annie Downs: And so the hope we have to fight it or not. And some days it really feels like it, but for, maybe, the hope that God's gonna answer the prayer. That's my hope. I still hope I get married, and so I'm still holding on to that hope. But my deeper hope is that, do I whether I feel like it or not, to go if I am single today, then actually believe that I am most loved, most effective for the Gospel, most blessed for lack of a better word today because I'm single?
• 45:43
  Annie Downs: And for y'all, you're married today, so God's that must mean that God's best story for me is in singlness.
• 45:53
  Annie Downs: best story, the most impactful way you are for the kingdom
• 45:56
  Eddie Rester: Is right here.
• 46:02
  Eddie Rester: today is as a husband. And that really matters.
• 46:04
  Eddie Rester: I think that's such an important perspective, is that where you are today is where God desires, loves you right there. Love you in this moment, not the moment 10 years from now, or the moment 10 years ago, in this moment, and desires for you to use your story right here.
• 46:20
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, the thing that I hear is that there's so many cultural scripts that are out there, these life stories that we're supposed to live, or that we're expected to live, and some of those come from the church, and some of those come from the culture, and those almost never fit every person's life.
• 46:35
  Eddie Rester: Rght.
• 46:36
  Chris McAlilly: And you, throughout the conversation, I think, have encouraged us to consider, what is it that is my unique story that I'm living and that's a story that's worth telling. And some of the dimensions of those stories are going to be really, really hard.
• 46:51
  Chris McAlilly: They're going to be points of pain and loss and tragedy. And that doesn't mean that now the story is over. It just means that that's going to be a part of the uniqueness of the story that you have to offer the world. And there are these windows of opportunity. They open and they will close when you can offer your unique story to a particular group of people that you've earned the trust with.
• 47:15
  Chris McAlilly: And you've... The thing that I am struck by is just your discernment. I think it is the word. It's the discernment of what it is, where it is, that I have trust, and where are the windows of discernment? And sometimes they're blatantly obvious. You get 20,000 emails that respond to a piece of content. That's a good.
• 47:35
  Annie Downs: Yo.
• 47:36
  Chris McAlilly: That's like a blaring... Like, it's hard to miss that signal. Sometimes.
• 47:39
  Annie Downs: Yeah.
• 47:39
  Chris McAlilly: Sometimes it's a little more difficult, but you know, engaging the unique story that you're living and assuming, making it your assumption that God... That is God has you exactly where God wants you and that your story, if you can tell it, if you can learn to tell it well, it can be the source of hope for another person or a community. You do this every single day. Thank you so much.
• 48:06
  Eddie Rester: Thank you.
• 48:07
  Chris McAlilly: For all of the ways in which you do this.
• 48:08
  Annie Downs: Y'all are very kind.
• 48:09
  Chris McAlilly: And thank you for doing it with us today. You know, I mean, I can feel your energy and your passion for this work and for the Gospel through the conversation, and I'm just so grateful, grateful that you've spent your time with us, grateful for your work.
• 48:25
  Annie Downs: Thanks, Chris.
• 48:25
  Chris McAlilly: And all the ways in which you're impacting the world for the kingdom. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
• 48:29
  Annie Downs: Well, thank you all for pastoring and leading so well online and in real life. I mean, we just, I just could not think of a people group I honor more than pastors. I'm just so, so thankful. So thanks for what you'll do.
• 48:41
  Eddie Rester: Well, thank you.
• 48:41
  Eddie Rester: All that Chris said, and usually I take a couple notes. I've just taken a lot of notes today, Annie, so thank you for your time today. And we'll, yeah, look forward to catching you some other time. I appreciate your time today.
• 48:54
  Eddie Rester: [OUTRO] Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed the podcast, the best way to help us is to like, subscribe, or leave a review.
• 49:02
  Chris McAlilly: If you would like to support this work financially, or if you have an idea for a future guest, you can go to theweightpodcast.com. [END OUTRO].