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Captain Marvel with Carolyn Cocca · The Bechdel Cast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: On the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef and best
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: start changing it with the beck Del Cast. Hello, and
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: welcome to the Beachdel Cast. My name is Caitlin Arante
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: and my name is Jamie Loftus, and our podcast is
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: about the representation of women in movies. Women. Ever heard
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: of them? Movies? Ever heard of them? No? Neither. My
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: new playing intro thought of all the way here, I
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: have two degrees in film, but somehow I've never heard
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: of movies. Listen, I know I've I also went through
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: the school, and they just don't tell you about it.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: If they don't, I'm excited for today's episode. It's another
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: hashtag current movie, not our normal fair but this seemed
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: very warranted. Yes, this is important important. The show is
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, derived from hard to Know? Really the part
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: who are we point? Oh wait, no, she's not the
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: next Man. I don't know how superhero movies work. It's
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: almost like she's a mutant. That's not this franchise. No, no, no,
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: you know, I'm just gonna go bury myself a lot
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: any who, So we use the Bactel test as a
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: jumping off point, and the Bactel test for us our version,
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: there must be two female identifying characters with names. They
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: must speak to each other, and their conversation cannot be
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: about men. And this is just a two line exchange
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: for us. It's all it takes. All it takes. But
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: a lot of movies managed to fuck it up, and
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: a lot of movies in the universe were addressing today
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: managed to suck it up. So it'll be interesting to
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: dive in. And the movie, of course, if you've clicked,
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: if you've dared to click, you already know the movie
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: is Captain Marvel. Yes, if you are listening to this
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: and you have not yet seen the movie, we are
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: going to do a lot of spoilers, so um, just
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: be aware of that and also see the movie. The movie,
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: Come on, seriously, I mean the box off. If the
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: box office is to be judged, they don't necessarily need you,
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: but you should see it. This movie made so much money.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: That's great, already made dollars? Wow? Well yeah, well with
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: how much further ado? Let's introduce our guest today. Yes, um,
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: she is the author of Superwomen, gender power, and representation.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: She also wrote the forward for the Captain Marvel issue
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: of Entertainment Weekly, which is on shelves right now. It's
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: Caroline Cocao. Hi, thanks for being here. Oh, thanks so
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: much for having me. It's crazy to be here. Time.
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: We're so we're so psyched to have a true expert
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: on the cast. So I guess before we get into it,
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: all of our experiences with this movie, we are relatively recent.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: Um in general, Caroline, how do you? How do you
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: like the movie? Oh? I was going to tell you
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: my long five day history with the movie. Please let's
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: unpack it. No, no, no, I'm kidding. Uh No. I
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: I did like it, and I think it's kind of
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: like when I went to go see A Wonder Woman.
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: I was more worried than anything else going in and
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: kind of relieved even though neither is perfect coming out.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: So I'll just leave it at that for now. What's
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: your history with the property? Um? In terms of the
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: comics and stuff? Are you super familiar? Have you read
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: a lot of them? I didn't until I guess about
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: five years ago. So I didn't read Captain Marvel growing up.
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: I mean I did read some comics when I was
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: a kid, they were mostly d C comics like Superman, Batman,
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: Wonder Woman. My history with Captain Marvel is pretty recent
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: from writing my book, and it was while I was
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: writing it that the character was sort of relaunched as
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: Captain Marvel. She had formerly been Miss Marvel from you know,
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: for like forty years before that and at this and
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: you know, at the time they thought, well, okay, it's
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: a longer story. But at the time, it was everybody
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: working in comics except for like one woman at Marvel
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: and one woman at TC. They were all guys. And
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: these guys, I think, genuinely thought that they were creating
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: a feminist character and that's why they they purposely used
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: the moniker miss Um And you know, they had her
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: first she was a security chief at NASA. That's how
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: she's introduced, and then later she's the editor of Woman magazine.
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: That is the vaguest vagary I've ever heard. She's a feminist.
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: She's magazine, that's right. I mean the first issue of
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: Miss Marvel, she's fighting um, you know, mean spider Man.
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: Editor j Jonah Jamison owns Women magazine. She's she's fighting
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: on the Bay and he wants to underpay her, and
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: she's like, no, you want me, You're gonna pay me
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: this much. And he's like, okay, grumble, grumble, cigar jump,
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: I want to read that issue. And then he's like,
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: so you're gonna do uh some recipes and some fashion
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: none of that, like women should be astronauts stuff, right,
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: women should be in the kitchen and she's like, uh,
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: feminist icon. J Jonah Jamison really an ally to all that.
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: J Jonah Jamison, Um wow, okay, I'm like, yeah, I'm
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: really excited to hear more about the character as well,
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: because I am not super familiar with the mcu as
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: by the fact that I called one of the X
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: Men but you, but you inadvertently said something accurate because
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: there was a point at which she almost joined the
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: X Men in the eighties. So we'll just pretend you
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: knew that. Actually I have a really deep knowledge and
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: so alas that is a cut, that's me. I want
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: to hear about that too. I um my history aside
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: from seeing the movie twice now, bragg is, I admittedly
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: did not know that Captain Marvel was a character or
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: a comic book until I saw the trailer for this movie,
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: which we can kind of later on unpack how you know,
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: a lot of the superheroes who are women don't really
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: make it to the mainstream or like the most popular properties.
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: But yeah, we can we can talk about that a
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: little for sure later. Um I gen'er. I mean, I
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: enjoyed the movie. It was there's definitely stuff that I
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: think is worth discussing. I wasn't my favorite movie ever, No,
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: but it was one of those movies that, like, for
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: the little things I was jotting down in the screening,
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: I was sitting two seats away from like kids, and
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: they were so excited, Oh, that's great, So like in
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: that way, you're just I'm like, almost crimes, just like
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: in that way, I think that that it's great. And
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: there was like a lot of young boys and girls
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: at movie and they were all site and it's like, yes,
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: I have my critiques, but in general, I think it
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: is a good movie to have in the world. And
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: I have kids seeing agree. Yes. I also I'm like,
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: I thought it was good. It was fine. It wasn't great.
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: Now that I've seen Spider Man into the Spider Verse
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: six times, I just feel a little underwhelmed by every
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: other superhero metric good but no, there's there's a lot
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: of talk to compare women to men as much as possible.
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: That um anyway, shall we do the recap? Sure? Okay,
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: so we meet Veers. That's Bree Larson's character. I stand
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: Bree Larson. Yes, I love Bree Larson. Big fan, big stand.
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: She lives on planet Halla with the Cree people. Sure
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: she has a power, she like energy comes out of
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: her fists. She fights Ju Law and she's stronger than him.
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: And she doesn't have any memory of her past from
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: before she arrived on Cree and Caroline. Does this line up?
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: I guess before we super get into it. Does this
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: line up pretty closely with what her origin story is
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: in the comic books as well? Or was where liberties taken?
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: This is one of the times when liberties are taken
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: in a way that actually makes the story a little better.
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: So I'm not sure where to start, because, like her
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: origin in comics is kind of what you don't get
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: till about three quarters of the way through the movie.
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: So do you want me to say it now or
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: when you get there? I guess we could say it
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: when we get there. I just wasn't sure if if
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: this was like a complete deviation or pretty she did.
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: She did not live on Cree. She just grew up human.
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: And when she was that NASA security chief, one of
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: the people who was working there was a man named
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: Walter Lawson who was Marvel. In other words, Marvel was
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: a dude, and Marvel was the first Captain Marvel, and
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: he was Cree and he did kind of turn against
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: the Cree when he was on Earth, and uh, he
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: was fighting yon Rog. Jon Rog took Carol hostage. And
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: in this struggle where Marvel is trying to rescue Carol
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: from yon Rog, this machine blows up and this machine
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: abuse Carol with her powers and with Marvel's Cree DNA. Okay,
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: I like, I was, like, it's ridiculous. So much more
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: I know, but so you can see that what they
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: did in the movie is an improvement on that. Totally agree. Yes, okay, yes,
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: indeed cool? Um Okay. So she's hanging out on Cree.
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: There's this supreme intelligence that she goes to see for therapy.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: I don't know what they do, it's like so I
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: was just like, okay, So there's a green screen in
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: play every time that scene would come. It's like Brie
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: Larsen on a green screen. And for Viers, this supreme
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: intelligence takes the form of a Net Benning. But Viers
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: doesn't know who this woman is to her. She doesn't
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: know her significance in her life because she can't remember
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: her past. So Viers accompany's Yon Rog that's Jude Law's
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: character and some other creased soldiers on a rescue mission
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: on a different planet and they're trying to rescue someone
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: from these bad guys called Scrolls, who are shape shifters,
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: and the Scrolls capture Veers and they are trying to
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: access her memories, and we see all these flashbacks of
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: Viers training in the Air Force and hanging out with
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: a net Benning, and they're trying to figure out who
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: a net Benning's character is because they're trying to find
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: her and get their hands on light speed technology that
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: she was developing. Right, turns out her name is when
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: Wendy Lawson right, So Veers gets away from the Scrolls
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: and crash lands on c. Fifty three. A k ever
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: heard of it so much? I mean, some studio executive
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: took the nostalgia note to heart and they're like, she
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: lands in a blockbuster. She's holding up a VHS day
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: You're just like, alright, I guess we'll get through this.
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: It's when she and a few of the Scrolls follow
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: her to Earth and then the Agents of Shields show up,
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: including Coulson, who we all know and love, and Nick Fiery,
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: who we all know and love. I thought it was
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: going to be so distracting to see young of fied
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: Samuel L. Jackson, but they did a great job. I
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: was just like, wow, he looks great. And then it
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: was like, no, that was that was technology. I was like, oh, okay.
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: So Viers is like, hey, Fury, here's what's going on.
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: There's these scrull bad guys, their shape shifters, and then
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: they don't believe her. She makes no effort to blend
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: in with her surroundings. There's moments where Captain Marvel is
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: great at her job and other times and I'm like,
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: I don't know what you think you're doing, but you
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: should probably anyways, I'm not who am I to tell
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: her how to do her job? Yeah? Who are you?
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Okay. So then there's this chase scene
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: and Fury sees this shape shifting happening, and he's like, oh,
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: now I believe her. So then she and Fury team
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: up and they try to find Wendy Lawson and then
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: go to Pegasus, which I believe is like a secret
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: military facility. Um, and they're in the records room and
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: they discover that Wendy Lawson is dead, that she died
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: in a plane crash that killed another pilot as well.
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: I wonder who that might be. She's in the background
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: of a lot of pictures. They discovered the Wendy Lawson
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: was Cree and then Yeah, sees a photo of herself
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: with Lawson from I think like nine and she's like,
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: oh my god. There's more to this story than I realize.
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: Also very important to note there is what appears to
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: be a cat named Goose. Yes, how many nipples does
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: the cat have? Okay, well, as we know cats have
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: eight nipples, that's cat facts with Caitlin obviously, Um, but Goose,
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: there's more to Goose than meets the eye. Goose is
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: not a cat. Goose is a flirkin. Flirkins have five
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: D and third seven nipples. That's flirkin facts. Is that
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: true with Caitlin? No, I just made that is that,
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: but it's cannon now okay. I was like, WHOA, Well,
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: let me google right now, how many doesn't how florins
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: does the nipple have? Does that mean we get to
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: give out five thirty seven at the end? Yeah? Oh yeah,
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: the scale has been adjusted for the sake of the
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: flirkin nipples? Okay, So how many nipples does a I
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: don't quite know how to spell flirkin f l E
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: r k E n okay E n okay I have
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: k I n okay So florkin welp. It says eight nipples,
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: but it's this is giving me facts about cats and
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: not flirkins, so unbelievable, so I can't trust this. Um yeah,
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: so let's go with what I said, eight hundred and
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: thirty seven or whatever I said. Seven okay is the
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: new scale that will be using on the show from
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: here on out. It sounds okay. So then um Furies
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: boss shows up at Pegasus, but it's actually a scroll
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: who's in disguise. So Fury and Veers make a run
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: for it and they go to Maria Rambo because they're like, oh,
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: there's here's this woman who had given this testimony about
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: this plane crash, so like she can. Maybe. It turns
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: out they were BFFs in the Air Force together, and
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: Veers is actually named Carol Danvers. Oh my god, one
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: thing I knew going into the movie. I didn't I
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: didn't even know that. And Carol learns that she had
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: this whole life on Earth pre pree times. She has
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: a child that falls into one of the most annoying
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: tropes in the world, to be child who is wise
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: beyond their years, really precocious child, the wise be their
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: years child, so cute. She's very cute, and her name
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: is Monica. So Taylos, the main scroll guy, shows up
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: at Marie, Yes, got it, shows up at Marie's house
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: and he's like, hey, fun fact um Scrolls aren't the
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: bad guys. It's the cree who are the bad guys.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: And everyone's like what. So we see a flashback of
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: the plane crash and we see Carol Denver's and Lawson.
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: They're in the plane together. There's a spaceship that's shooting
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: at them. It's Creed. There's the Creed. They're the bad guys.
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: They're shooting the career after them because they also want
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: Lawson's light speed technology. Uh. And we learned here that
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: Lawson is actually named Marvel. Then we learned that it
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: was Jude laws character whose name I always forget, Jon
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: rog Um who killed Lawson. So in this flashback, Carol
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: Invers needs to destroy the plane's engine before the Crea
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: can get to it. So when she does that, it
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: explodes and she absorbs all of its powers, which is
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: how she has like energy fists um. And it turns
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: out that Marvel a k. Lawson was trying to help
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: the Scrolls who are refugees and they're on the run
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: from the cree and there they wanted the light speed
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: technology to be able to escape and like get out
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: of the reaches of like cre rule. So now Carol
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: Danver's fury and Maria and Taylo's need to go to
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: Lawson's laboratory somewhere in space to get the energy core
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: for the Scrolls. And then they get there and they
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: find it and they're like, oh, by the way, it's
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: called a test irect. I learned that in geometry. I
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: was so excited. I was like, Mrs Foley, you'd be
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: so proud. Which which Marvel movie do we first learn
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: about the test direct? Yeah? Yeah, Okay, Yeah, it's a
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: running thing through the Marvel movies. Yeah, I just couldn't
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: remember which. I guess it's a bigger plot point in
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: the first Avengers movie, right, Okay, okay, that's what I
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: thought it. And they keep it in a in a
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: retro lunchbox, the funds of reference, the property, sure, and
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: then this space laboratory, Taylos's family is there and there's
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: like this nice little reunion and then Yon rog and
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: the other Creed show up rock Jude Law Jude Law, Yes,
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: and there's a big fight and Carol Danver's fully realizes
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: her powers because she takes off her inhibitor chip, basically
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: a metaphor for something. Now, I know this is all
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: very subtle stuff going on, and I was like, wait,
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: when she removes the chip, what is that exactly implying?
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: I will say I did tear up during that very
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: heavy handed montage of fall Down, Get Up, fall Down,
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: and get Me. I was like, I was like, I
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: don't want to be crying, but here we are crying,
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: and so was everyone else. Well, remember who else has
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: an inhibitor chip. Jamie go On is doc where where
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: was where was his montage? Alfred his montage. I would
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: just like to say at this point that as much
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: as I thought Ben Mendelssohn was excellent, I couldn't help
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: thinking to myself, Alfred Moleena would have made a great Taylor.
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: So that was my VICTI I totally agree he would have.
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: He would have been terrific. They gotta welcome him back
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: into the m c U. Yeah, whereas he's if he's
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: hanging out with us, he should be back in the
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: m c you agree. During the fight, you know, Carol
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: is getting more powerful, and then she defeats the Cree
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: and at the end she gives fury a you an
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: improved beeper which we see in Avengers Infinity War, and
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: then she goes off with the scrolls. And that is
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: pretty much the story, except for the after credits scenes,
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: which I didn't understand. Oh sure, I don't watch the movie.
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: So the after credit scene for all the Chrisms are back,
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: chris Is are there. It's too much to explain, But fine,
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: we're going to do an Avengers episode. I, against all odds,
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: I will end up knowing what these movies mean at
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: some point. I can't wait for you to do that. Sure, yeah,
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: it'll be great. Um, well, let's take a quick break
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: and then we will come right back to discuss the movie.
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: So Caroline initial thoughts as an expert on this topic
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: of superheroes who are women? How did this movie strike you?
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: What are your feelings about it? Well, in my research,
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: I do like what my book basically is is like
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: a history of female superheroes over the last seventy five
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: years in comics and novels and TV and movies, and
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: when you look across that big sweep, you basically find
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: that they're underrepresented stereo. I know, it's hard to believe,
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: hold on to your hat. Sways, they're wildly underrepresented. They're stereotyped,
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: and they're sexualized, and they're generally like side characters. Yes,
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: there are exceptions to that, but I'm talking like literally
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: of the time, that is what they are. So the
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: way that Captain Marvel Carol Davers is portrayed in this
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: movie is women are none of these things. So that's
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: like a big win right there. Yeah, for sure. So
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: umber one, it centers a woman. Number two, she's wearing
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: actual clothes and so are the other women, including flat shoes.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: She's got women around her who are inspiring her. There's
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: no heatero romance happening, know that like side tracks her plot,
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: and it's about a woman who has grown up a
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: woman and has had experiences that women have coming into
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: her own powers. So I think all of those things
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: make it unfortunately, very very different from most Hollywood movies.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: I mean, just the previews that were before this movie
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: was like pinful there. One of them was, um, Charlie's
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: there owne is running for president or something. Oh and
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: like starts dating Seth Rogan. God, what sort of cosmic
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: punishment landed Charlie's there on in this movie. I just
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: my heart goes out to whatever sinister tea all. But
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: that was just the perfect example of it's like they're
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: ostensibly making her this strong character, but really the whole
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: movie is about her and she loveby Seth Rogan taking
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: her to a bar and doing shots, and you know,
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: it's just why, why any times is that going to
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: happen in a movie where a perfectly good female character
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: is just as her life absolutely ruined and derailed by
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: a Seth Rogan character by Seth specifically, it's practically a
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: sub genre. It's like anyways, Yes, so this movie, unlike
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: nearly every single superhero movie to date does mostly the
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: opposite of everything that those movies do. Yeah, I mean,
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: and the and the lack of a romantic subplot is
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: huge that never happens, right, are very usually romantic subplots
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: in male driven movies as well with underwritten female characters.
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: I mean, if they're going to rescue them, yes, right, right,
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: and and you truly don't miss it, like there's no
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: there's no room for it. There's a lot going on
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: in this movie. She's she's busy. Yeah. In more recent comics,
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: she has kind of an on and off relationship with Rhadi,
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: who you saw in the post credit sequence. Okay, right,
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: right right? You know, maybe they'll give a glance to
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: each other in the Avengers movie or something. I don't know.
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: That's a rather glaring age difference, but they couldn't have known.
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm pretty sure Don Cheeta could be Bree
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: Larson's father, But who am? I just touching on that
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: a little bit more from what I remember of because
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: I think I've seen, not to brag, I believe I've
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: seen every single m c U movie to date. I
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: wouldn't call myself an expert I'm not super because I've
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: only seen each of them probably once, maybe twice at
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: the most. Um, with the exception of Spider Man into
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: the Spider Verse, which I did see five times in
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: theata's um. But it doesn't feel like it's not a
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: part of the m C you like, I don't. I mean,
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: maybe they'll bring animated Miles Morales into Avengers end Game,
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: but I don't think so. But they should. But yeah,
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: I think most of them, because they're all they've all
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: centered around male superheroes until Captain Marvel, I would say
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: most of them do have a romantic subplot. Yeah, but
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: that just means that there's like a woman in the story,
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: but she's only there to further characterize them in and
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: to be the romantic interests. So right, yeah, I mean
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: it's just to contextualize the movie a little bit. I
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: think it's like worth discussing a little bit what the
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: climate in case you're listening to this episode many years
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: from now, which people will do, which this is just
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: gonna go on forever. But um, the reception, I feel
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: like it's almost standard fair for uh, woman being introduced
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: into a large property or like we can you know,
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: revisit Wonder Woman, we can revisit the Ghostbusters reboot of
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: just prior to those movies release. Uh men, absolutely furious
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: people who are who are fans of comics and and
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: not everyone because this movie is doing incredibly well. Um,
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: but there there is a faction of comic book fans
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: who like there was a like a concerted campaign to
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: just ruin this movie's rotten Tomatoes movie before anyone had
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: seen it. Um. A lot of that I think also
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: has to do with the casting of Brie Larson, which
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: I think is almost a statement in itself, because she's
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: really outspoken on women's issues and intersectionality, and she in
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: in my book, does generally good job in in giving
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: care to all of all of those things, and so
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: they don't like her. Her casting is a statement in itself.
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: And there's just a lot of, I guess, unsurprising controversy
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: before this movie came out at all. I guess it's
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: it's hard to know where to start here, because I mean,
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: it does mostly everything mostly right. I would say, like
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: there wasn't anything hugely glaring to me. There are a
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: few kind of nitpicky things I want to talk about,
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: but there is the reading of this movie that is
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: like the kids I was sitting next to, We're thrilled.
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: And if I saw this movie when I was, you know,
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: seven or eight years old, I would be over the
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: moon obsessed. I think it's great overall, doing the like
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: you know, beckdel Into. There were parts of it that
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: felt like a Dove soap commercial. Is something that writer
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: just Jojo said in a Mashable piece that I think
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: it's worth reading. I don't agree with everything it's saying,
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: but um, she's very smart and there there are some
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: clear plays made in this movie, down to the choice
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: of like no doubts, I'm just a girl playing in
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: the climactic scene, which did make me roll my eyes
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: directly back into my head. Uh, there are some things
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: that feel like okay, like this was this was an
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: easy choice to make some of those more broad choices.
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: I was like, I mean, I didn't defend it a
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: little bit like hashtag feminism versus actual but I see
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: what you're saying. The climactic site sequence with that specific
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: song pretty much worked for me because I was like, yeah,
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: it's fun and she's kicking ass and stuff, but yes,
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: I do right, but it's still like it feels a
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: little I don't know, just like we're drawing, we're still
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: drawing attention to the fact that it's like she's what
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: the boys can do, um, which is another thing that
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: I mean, I guess this is just like a general
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: critique of like she's we're always has shown like how
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: strong she is next to men, and she's like fighting men,
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: and it's still like men are the yardstick that she's
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: measured against, which is true to life, but it's just
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: in terms of like moving things forward that I'm just like,
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: I don't know, I guess it's like we need to
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: crawl before we can walk kind of thing. So like,
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: hopefully in the years to come, we see the much
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: needed better representation of I mean women in general in
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: all media, but then also specifically in superhero movies, where
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: like a woman kicking ass and fighting and being strong
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: is just has just been so normalized that we we
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: don't need to draw attention to the fact that she's
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: a woman and she's fighting like the boys and she
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: can fight men and we're not. And I like that
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: that is done not very frequently, but I think that
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: that is done in movies sometimes without being like girl
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: doing thing. Look, but I don't know. I mean, I
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: guess that that's sort of what this this movie's narrative
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: is hinged around. But there were there were there were
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: a few moments where I was like, it just felt
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: more like a strategic corporate play versus a genuine thing. Sure,
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I think it's I think it can
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: be both. I mean, I think what the three of
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: us are seeing as crawling other people see as running right,
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: like we think this is for instance, a number of
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: times where she's told where Carol is told, you know,
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: control your emotions. Nothing is more dangerous than emotion. You
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: have to have the strength to get right. So it's
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: maybe five or six times to me, that's a lot.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: But to other people in the audience, maybe they didn't
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: even hear it till the fifth time. Sure, so I'm
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: willing to I'm willing to let that go. And certainly
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: that I'm just a girl. I was like, Wow, that
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: is super duper on the nose. Okay, barry on the nose.
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: But my twelve year old would think that that is
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: the most awesome thing ever, Right, so I have the
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: brain of a twelve year old guy. No, I'm saying
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: that's what I'm saying there. Yeah, I mean it's I
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: think it did this just like they're they're reading, will
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: depend on the audience, because you're totally right, Caroline. If
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: there's you know, a very subtle, you know, feminist undertone,
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: then maybe a lot of people wouldn't have picked up
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: on it. And it's also, I mean, these kinds of
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: things even in the sixties and seventies, she did have
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: these kinds of moments in the comics that again I
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: think we're they were written by men, drawn by men,
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: and I think they they were trying, um, they looked
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: totally like cardboard to us now, you know, like they're
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: like they're setting up this straw man and knocking it down.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: But like there's a thing about how she joins the
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: Air Force because her father tells her that he'll only
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: pay for her brother to go to college and not
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: her because women don't shouldn't go to college, and that
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: was not an unusual thing. And you know, my team
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: seventy seven or whatever or where she's introduced as this
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: is my security chief, Carol Danvers, man or woman. She's
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: the best there is and it's like to us now
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: it's like, why do you have to draw attention to that?
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: But then in nineteen that was sixty seven, that was
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: a big deal. Yes, so there's I I feel, I
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: guess just to wrap up that that area of critique
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: would also lumping a few of the lines that men
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: say to her that are just like okay, like the
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: it's not called a cockpit for nothing. Okay, we get
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: it because only get it in a cockpit. The yeah,
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: but it's fun when or when he's like, why did
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: you smile? Like there's some there's a real general some
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: just some very generalized misogny um employed, but it's again,
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: it's like for a family film, which this is. I
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: think that works. Um. And it is cool that she
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: steals his motorcycle. Yes, And do you remember when the
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: first trailer came out, all those trolls that you were
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: talking about, we're writing, why doesn't Free Larson smile? In
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: the trailer? She's just so cold? Yeah? I hope they
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: added it after that. I don't know if you're not.
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: I just love so much. Can we talk more about
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: Carol dan versus emotions? Because okay, so, as we hinted at,
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: it's mostly Jude Law's character tells her that she's emotional
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: and she needs to control her emotions and emotions are
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: so dangerous to a soldier and all this stuff, right,
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: I think, I don't know if this is just sort
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: of like badly done storytelling, but there's really nothing about
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: that character that actually indicates that she's very it's too emotional.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: Were told that a lot, but I didn't really see that.
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: I kind of felt the same way, like we never
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: see I wonder how like specific a decision that was,
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: or if it was just an oversight, but it feels
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: like an intentional decision because that's like one of the
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: moments where they're saying all the right things. But it's
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: like in the story, we don't really see her react
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: emotionally unless you count those small moments when she's fighting
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: Jude Law and she's piste off at him and then
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: he's like, control your emotion. But that's like such, that's
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: so small, right, And that's like happening in like a
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: controlled environment, Like there's no like big battle scenes where
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: she like quote loses control of her emotions and then
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: pays the penalty for it. So like the care and
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: it's also yeah, I mean Carol in general, like it
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: takes her so long into the movie to be interested
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: in who she is. Well, I don't know, there's there's
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: some strange things. The emotionality thing confused me. I would
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: have liked to see that character get emotional about something
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: that's something that superheroes don't do, especially if they could
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: handle it in narrative of like, this is not a
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: weakness um expressing your emotions. You can come at that
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: from the soldier perspective two of like repressed emotions equals
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: PTSD for life, you know. But yeah, I didn't really
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: touch him. Yeah, I think before I saw the movie,
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: I had at least seen like the title of an
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: article that was that was talking about her emotions and
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: how like the movie is painting her as this emotional character.
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: So I was worried that that was going to be
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: her arc, where like she's too emotional because she is
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: a woman and women be emotional, and that her arc
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: would have to be her learning to control those emotions
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: and that's what like enables her to win. I think
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: the opposite happens, where she isn't very emotional at all
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: in the beginning of the movie, and then when she
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: starts to learn about her past and her former identity
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: and the fact that she had been betrayed by Jude
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: Law's character and all of that, and that she's reunited
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: with like her best friend and her bestmand's daughter like
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: in those scenes. Yeah, and then those things kind of
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: like humanize her, because up until that point, she had
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: been kind of like a like a stiff, you know,
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: like stoic hero type, and then she becomes more humanized
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: and more emotional, and that's what kind of leads her
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: to realize, oh, I've been stunted this whole time. There's
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: this fucking inhibitor chip that I need to break off.
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: And then right, yeah, yeah, So I'm glad that that's
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: how the story panned out, because I was, like I said,
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: I was worried that it was going to be, like,
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: you're so emotional and you're gonna need to learn to
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: control your emotions if you want to harness your power.
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: But that's just what Jude Law tells her over and
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: over again. And he's the villain because he's got resting
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: villain faith, he's got like yellow contexts, and so therefore
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: he's said, yeah, he's got jaundice, he can't be attracted
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: the first time I saw it twice. Also, the first
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: time I saw it, I had that issue as well.
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: I felt like in a number of places she seemed
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: very flat and controlled to me. And I am also
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: coming from a different perspective, which is, I've read all
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: these comics where from really when she's introduced all the
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: way up through today, she is emotional, she has a temper,
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: she punches first and asked questions later. She goes with
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: her gut all the time. She's very loving, but she's
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: also self righteous and funny, and you know, I mean,
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: she just doesn't take any crap anybody. So I was
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: assuming I was going to see that immediately, and I
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: was disappointed at first because I felt like what you said,
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: where you just kind of see it a little more
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: and a little more and a little more as it
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: goes along. And then I thought about it more before
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: I saw it the second time. In the second time,
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: I felt more like I could see what I think
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: they were trying to do, which is that, you know,
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: one of the first things she says is like she
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: makes a joke to Jude Law and he's like, humor
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: as a distraction, control yourself, and then she they're going
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: on a mission and she is joking and he comes
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: on and says, you know, stop that right now. So,
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: like she's always leaking out these little things and being
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: told to stop. And then when she gets to Earth,
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: it's different because like she can joke with Nick Fury
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: and whatever, and she can be emotional with So I
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: think that what they were trying to do is say,
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: you know this, this is who she is, but she's
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: been kept down in the beginning. Then whenever she's around Cree,
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: she can't show that, and she's been trained for six
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: years not to show it, but she can't help it
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: because this is who she is. She's human shaped by experience. Yeah,
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: so I think that's what they were going for, but
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: I agree with you that it's not always effective. It
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: will hold you away from her from grabbing onto her
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: um in the beginning, especially totally because well, so I
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: found myself expecting to have a much stronger emotional connection
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: to this movie, because at least when I saw like
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: Wonder Woman, I was like, oh my god, it's a
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: woman and she's kicking ass and she's walking through no
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: man's land and there's epic music and I'm just crying
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: and all this stuff. I didn't have any such emotional
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: connection to this movie I had Again, I had a
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: much stronger emotional connection to Spider Verse because I was
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: like crying at four different parts. I'm like laughing the
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: whole time. It's just like and then with with Captain Marvel,
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: I'm just like, Okay, it's cool that I'm seeing on
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: screen this like strong woman kicking ass. But I mean, yeah,
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: I guess my only counter argument to that would be,
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: like I felt, I felt more connected to her than
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: I ever have to like any male superhero. Maybe I
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: just need to see Spider Verse. But there, uh yeah,
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: it's it's weird. She I feel like she's almost as
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: emotionally detached as a male superhero can be, you know,
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: like it's I don't know, the bar is set so
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: high for the way this character is treated in this
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: movie because there are so few movies like it. I
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: guess there, it's it's weird. Now. I was listening back
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: to part of our Wonder Woman episode that we did,
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: and we were so excited and that movie came out.
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: But I rewatched Wonder Women, and as much as I
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: still enjoy that movie, there's like a lot of stuff
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: that that movie, you know, and everyone's going to compare
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: these two movies, which is unfair and just you know,
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: demonstrates a lack of probable. But you know, it's like
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: Wonder Woman, you got you, you have a makeover sequence,
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: you have a love story that resolves the plot, You've
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: got you know, there's a lot of it's weird. I
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: don't know, it's some it's some woman's When I was disappointed,
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, but I'm setting the atation so high
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: for this movie because there's just nothing I'll like it.
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: I don't know. There I wanted to be more emotionally
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: connected to her, but also I'm just like, but maybe
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: I don't know if that's asking more than I would
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: have a male superhero. I think the structure is a
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: big part of it, though, because normally, and on the
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: one hand, it's great that they took a chance with
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: a different kind of structure, like a flashback structure, and
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: she was trying to figure out who she is, I think,
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: but usually the structure for an origin story is you're
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: meeting this person as a regular person, and you're being
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: grounded in their everyday life and you're seeing well in
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: some cases that they're a good person and in other
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: cases they're you know, an arrogant millionaire and they have
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: to be brought down by something that's all the men
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: obviously there, or they're frozen in ice and they need
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: to be unfrozen. But you get the idea. So you
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: you kind of follow them in their everyday life and
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: you see that there's something heroic in them. And then
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: by the time they quote unquote get their powers or
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: they come into their heroism, you've been rooting for them
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: for an and a half, right, yeah, and you've been
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: you've been like invested in watching them grow and this
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: doesn't have that. It's not it's not linear totally, so
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: it can't within you kind of build and build and
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: build and build that you get more and more attached
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: to her, Right, Yeah, I think you're Yeah, you're really
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: touching on one of the main reasons I didn't find
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: myself really connecting with Carol Danver's the way again I
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: connected with Miles Morales and Spider Verse. But I'll stop
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: bringing him up. But it is the greatest movie of
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: all time. Um, I just love it so much. Um
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: we have to take another quick break, but we will
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: come back to discuss more We're bad. I Every time
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: I hit on a criticism like that, I'm like, but
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: if I saw this movie when I was seven, I
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: would be obsessed with her, absolutely obsessed with her. Caroline
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: you were pointing out earlier. The way that she's dressed
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: for the first time him makes sense things, aren't. She
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: wears layers at times, it's crazy. I was like, she's
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: got three layers on. She's wearing a flannel, a jacket
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: and a shirt and nails and a nine inch nails
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: shirt like all with but it was it was that
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: was like one thing. That's like, Okay, you did the
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: easiest possible thing you could do to make this story
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: makes sense. Thank you, thank you, and thank you for
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: not giving us uh makeover montage, a nineties inspired makeover montage,
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: because they could have done that. They did that in
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: World War two Wonder Woman, and that wasn't necessary and
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: they and they that's avoided here. I guess there's some
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: of what I like about this movie is not really
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: what it does, but don't Yeah, well, you know there
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: are five credited writers on this movie, and four of
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: them are women, and that is the first time of
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: all the DCM Marvel movies, right, the female co director
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: as well, um, which is like incredible, So it's we
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: sort of touched on this a little bit earlier. Something
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: it really did work for me in this movie was
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: the gas lighting narrative. I thought that was really done.
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: I didn't see that narrative coming of of you know,
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: I mean you can tell they're getting to some something
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: gas lighting adjacent when we keep seeing a net Benning
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: and we don't know who she is, and they're like, okay,
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: you know, she's not sure of her identity or history,
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: but the twist that she's been emotionally manipulated figures it
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: out and then is fucking furious. I don't know, I
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: just like that really hit with me, where she recognizes
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: that she has been misled and manipulated for so long,
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: she does not blame herself for it, which is huge
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: in a narrative like that because that's like where a
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: lot of people go in real life and seeing the
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: example set of like she's like, no, this isn't my fault,
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: but I need to make things right with the people
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: I have inadvertently wronged. And then she does that with
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: the scroll and and like, you know, it's like Okay,
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: this happened. I don't blame myself, but how can we
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: make things right? And she does. I don't know. I
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: just thought that that was like a very well handled
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: portion of this story. Yeah, and I liked that there
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: was a little nagging along with the gas lighting because
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: she says things like without us, you're weak and you're flawed,
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: and we made you strong, you know, right, which is
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: like more and more of the on the nosiness. But
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: I don't know, it worked for me, and that was, like,
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: I think maybe my one of my favorite storylines in
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: the movie was her navigating a gas lighting narrative and
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: coming out on top on her own terms. It was
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: really cool to watch. It was also cool to watch
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: the relationships between women in this movie. I almost wish
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: there was a little more of that because the other
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: female characters outside of Captain Marvel uh seems very much
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: relegated to the B or C characters where we've got,
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: you know, like her bff in this movie, besides um, sorry,
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: what's her name? The Maria Maria but like but her
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: like implied right hand man in this movie is Nick Fury.
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: The villain is Jude Law, the guy we think is
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: a villain, but that isn't a villain is also a man,
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: and I would argue those are the three, you know,
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: main characters beneath Captain Marvel and then underneath that isn't
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: net Benning. I'm Maria Rambo, and I wish I wish
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: that they had a little more prominence in the story.
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: And again it's like you only have so much space.
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: But I like her in Maria's relationship. I wish that
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: there were more purpose for Maria than to just you know,
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: give context for Captain Marvel. Yeah, she does, I suppose
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: have a little bit of a narrative significance toward the
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: end whenever she is like helping to pilot the aircraft
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: and then and then it's like in the battle, although
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: I feel like we don't really get to see much
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: of her like fighting or kicking ass. I hope. I mean,
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: I'm assuming we'll see her in the next movie as well.
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: Oh maybe, um um, I don't know. Well, do you
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: mean if there's a Captain Marvel too? Yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: I think that's possible. I agree with you in terms
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: of what you're saying about the tears of characters. But
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: there was a moment I was struck by where um,
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: they're flying to the floating lab and and who is
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: in that plane is Carol and Maria and Fury and Taylos.
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: And I just thought to myself, oh my god, half
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: of them are women and half of them are people
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: of color. Oh my god, that's true. This is shocking.
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: And the women are driving, one's piloting, um and I
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: loved the sidebar. I ran into a friend of the cast, EDGARL. Mompa,
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: was here at the screening of this movie, and he
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: was like Maria's kid, or Monica, Monica's I think she's
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: going to be a big part of Avengers four, like
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: he was just you. They do draw attention to Monica
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: in a way where it's like that she's like, I'm
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: going to be like you someday, and it's like, Okay,
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: she's gonna come back, right. But because because this takes
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: place in by the time she's wearing like present day
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: Avengers time, she's an adult. She's a millennial. Honey, what
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: what do you know about the character of Monica Rambo
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: in the comics? Do you know anything about her? I
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: read as much as I could of the chapter of
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: your book Caroline on of course on Captain Marvel, and
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: I saw a reference to Monica Rambo eventually becoming Captain
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: Marvel in some of the later comic books. So, so,
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: first Captain Marvel is Marvel, who is, you know, a
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: Net Benning, except in the comics he's a guy. But
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: he still had that kind of semi short gray hair.
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: So when they showed a Nette bending with the gray hair,
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: I was like, all right. But but then he dies
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: of cancer and he doesn't come back, which is unusual
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: in comics because everybody comes back from the dead. And
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: then in two Monica Rambo becomes the second Captain Marvel.
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: And it's not because she has anything to do with
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: the create. It actually doesn't really make a lot of sense,
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: but like she's a harbor Patrol lieutenant and blah blah blah,
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: explosion blah blah blah, and she basically has those kinds
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: of powers, and the media labels her Captain Marvel. And
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: then she meets the Avengers and they're like, why are
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: you calling yourself Captain Marvel And she's like, I don't
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: know they called me that, and they're like, well, you know,
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: our buddy Captain Marvel just died and She's like, no,
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: I didn't know that. Sorry. So so she's here. She's
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: the second Captain Marvel. Her outfit is white and black,
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: but it's this got that same star in the middle. Yeah.
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: Oh cool. She's got like natural hair, which is also nice.
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: That's for back then, and um. She leads the Avengers
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: like through into the nine into the like the late
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: eighties and whatever, and then in the nineties, suddenly Marvel's
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: son shows up and declares that he's Captain Marvel, and
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: Monica's like, Okay, I guess I'll call myself Photon instead
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: a man. I'm like, I'm Photon. But if Jamie Kennedy
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: comes along and he's like, my name has been Jamie
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: loft As this whole time, Like, fine, I'm Photon. So
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: that's why Maria Rambo on her plane, it said Maria
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: Photon Rambo. I think so probably what they're setting up
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: is that twenty years into the future, when the Avengers
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: movie is taking place, Monica would be the right age
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: to be Photona cool cool, okay, and to be glowing
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: and stuff like that. And so so she's Photon and
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: she works with other Avengers and all that kind of stuff,
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: and uh, at that time, Carol is still Miss Marvel,
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: and then there's all kinds of stuff that happens, and
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: she's an alcoholic and they made her an alcoholic, so
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: Tony Stark iron Man could be her a a sponsor.
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: Are so weird. There's drama and so it goes on
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: like that until two thousand twelve when they Relauncher as
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: Captain Marvel. So she's really the fourth Captain Marvel. Carol
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: and when they really started, I mean, it's the character
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: really took off very quickly, but there were definitely, and
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: understandably so Monica Rambo fans who were like, Carol Danvers
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: is not the first female Captain Marvel, Why aren't you
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: promoting Monica? Why are all your heroes white? You know?
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: So um So, when the mis Kelly Sue Deconic, who
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: really kind of launched this version of Captain Marvel that
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: you see in the movie, and she was a consultant
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: on the movie and had a cameo and stuff, she
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: made sure to kind of bring Monica Rambo into the
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: Captain Marvel comics. And there's this arc where the two
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: of them worked together and their buddies and they're on
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: a team together. Later and stuff, they should work all together, yeah,
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: Carolyn keep in every episode of Superheroes, this is the
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: context I crave. Yeah, happy to help with the crazy history,
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: but it is. I mean, it's very telling that whenever
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: these movies get adapted, the choices always usually seemed to be,
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: let's make sure our heroes are male, sis, hetero, white, right,
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: able bodied. Yeah. And when you look at the number,
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: I mean I sort of added him up, right. So
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: if you count all superhero movies from two thousand and
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: then even count the ones in development, about ten percent
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: star women. And and last I checked, our world was
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: not white, cis gender, non queer, non disabled men. Thank god,
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: no a nightmare. And it's it's actually about the same
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: for Superhero TV shows, the ones that are out now
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: and the ones that are coming in the next few years.
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: That's like star women, say, And it's about the same
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: number in superhero comics, very very very low. Yeah, still
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: a lot of under representation happening. And then, as I
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: kind of hinted at before the fact that I had
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: not heard of or was familiar with the Captain Marvel
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: character at all, one of the few women who has
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: her own comic book series in the Marvel universe at
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: least is telling of how the heads of the studios
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: and the creators of the comic books and all and
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: everything have the priority to like, you know, showcase. Here's
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: the incredible quote from Hollywood executive from a few years ago.
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: They can always counter pun uh quote do more lady stuff.
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: Bitches love lady stuff unquote. So you know, it's so
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: weird that that and I think that that is I
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: guess where more where I'm getting at with hashtag feminism
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: versus actual feminism of like, they're doing the right thing,
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: but they're like, because bitches love lady stuff and we'll
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: make five million dollars in three days, which I mean,
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: that's the game. That's the game. So that's what's gonna happen.
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: But yeah, the bitches love lady stuff at moments in
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: this movie has like I say, I see you, I
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: see you. Um. Yeah, they also did do better. I
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: just want to point out with with having more women
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: and men of color in the cast, I counted about
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: a third of the women or women of color and
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: about a quarter of the men or men of color
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: better than you rule, I would say, Yeah, I want
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: to make sure I'm getting her name right, Gemma chan Is.
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: She's not in this movie very very much. She's also
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: the one woman who doesn't like Captain Marvel, which it
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: did appreciate. Uh. You see, I feel like sometimes in
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: movies that heavily feature women, especially for like the largest
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: possible audience, women are sort of all painted with one brush.
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: They all get along, They're like, oh, we're all on
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: the same team, like which we are, but we're all
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: different people, and so it was weirdly refreshing to me too.
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: So she plays Minerva, she's one of the cree bad guys. Yeah,
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: she's a cree and she does not like Carol at
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: any point in the movie, and all other interactions was
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: the whatever. There's like that very superhero we exchange during
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: a fight where Carol is like, is this why we
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: didn't hang out? And then Minerva is like, no, I
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: just didn't like you, and then they keep fighting, which
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: is so silly, But it's like, I do appreciate when
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: care is taken to, you know, show women having different
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: kinds of relationships. You've got the professional relationship of Marvel
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: and Carol, You've got the close friendship with her and Maria,
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: and then you've got like a contentious work place, right,
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: relationship with Minerva. There's always room for more, but but
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: it was nice to see kind of different kinds of relationships.
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: And then also like the kind of like Carol ends
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: up acting is like sort of like a surrogate co
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: parent of like Monica. And the fact that, um, most
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: of the women in this movie, in fact, with the
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: exception of Monica, who is a child, um, all of
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: the women in this movie are either military or women
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: in stem or both. So and we scientific right, Yeah,
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: so you know, you've got scientists, you've got soldiers, you've
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: got roles that you don't usually see women occupying in movies.
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: So that was pretty cool. There's also the line that
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: Maria says when Carol is like rediscovering her identity as
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: Carol Danvers. Maria says, the Air Force wasn't letting women
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: fly combat back then, so testing Lawson's plan was the
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: only way to fly. So they were like the you know,
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: the patriarchy was not letting women do things, so they
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: found ways to get around it. And you know, I
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: was like, cool, I'm glad that you did that. Yeah,
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: were there any other big stuff you wanted to discuss?
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: I wanted to say a word about amnesia. Sure, great, Um,
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: I think that sometimes that can be kind of a
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: feminized sort of state to be in, you know, sort
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: of gets linked with women not knowing their own minds
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: and stuff in fiction. But it is true that it
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: is part of her history. She's had amnesia at least
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: three times in the comics. Oh boy, girl, I know.
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: I know. When she is first Ms Marvel, she would
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: like turn into Miss Marvel and do superheroic stuff, and
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: then when she turned back to Carol and then she
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: has to reconcile that. Then there's another time. This is
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: kind of the X Men related time where Rogue. You
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: know Rogue, right, So if she touches you, she absorbs
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: your power. So when Rogue first appeared, she wasn't a hero,
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: she was a villain um with mystique like her her
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: adopted mother, and uh, Rogue absorbs Carol's power and her memories.
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: And then Carol is invited to join the X Men,
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: but she doesn't because they also basically asked Rogue to join,
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: and she's like, um, she took my life away, why
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: would I want to stay here with her? And the
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: guys are jerks, so then she has to build her
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: memories back up, and then the third time is Um
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: more recently, where she basically has to lose her memory
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: to save the Earth. It's a little more convoluted, but
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: jon Rog seems to come back and she has to
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: fly up into space and basically have her brain kind
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: of explode in order to save everybody. She has Ama
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: after that too. One of the unique challenges with with
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: adaptations like this is it's like you have this strong
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: core of female writers directors on the movie, but you're
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: still adapting a character whose origin story was written and
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: illustrated by men. So it's I'm glad that there were
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: deviations from the canonical lore because it's like clearly it's
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: like however well intentioned, you know, the deep seated ship
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: gets in there, and it sounds like the the amnesia
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: might be one of those things, and it's yeah, it's
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: it's weird having to I mean and even and I
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: think it's like even more apparent in a character like
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: Wonder Woman Um that makes it as relevant as those
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: characters are to our culture. It's there's stuff in the
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: d n A of the character that is is very
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: passive aggressive, perhaps yeah, speaking of um men creating these
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: stories largely, Caroline. I borrowed this quote from your book
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: from Jerry Conway, who his role as it pertains to
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: Captain or Miss Marvel is did he create it or
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: he didn't create the character, but he launched the Miss
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: Marvel comic Ina got it? So he says in response
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: to people being like, hey, why are you a man
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: writing this female character? And he says, at the moment,
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: there are no thoroughly trained and qualified women writers working
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: in the superhero comics field. Reason two is more personal.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: A man is writing this book because a man wants
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: to write this book. Me Reacon three, why not a man?
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: If the women's liberation movement means anything, it's a battle
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: for equality of the sexes. And it's my contention that
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: a man properly motivated and aware of the pitfalls can
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: write a woman character as well as a woman. So
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: that's what our friend Jerry Conway has to say about that.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: And you know, he's ignoring a lot of his privilege
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: and stuff when he says something like that, there's a
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: great fun Jerry joke in there. So yeah, and I
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: think I think that, like a lot of the guys
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: working at both Marvel, and I'm not saying all of
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: them by any means, but I do think there were
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: a number of them at the time that saw themselves
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: as liberal, progressive guys. You know, they were, they were
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: like New York City progressive guys. But like many people
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: in the civil rights movements, UM did not necessarily quite
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: understand all the different dimensions of gender inequalities. And what's
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: painful to me is that even today, so it's like
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: forty years after he writes this thing, Um, there are
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: still people in the big comics companies who are like,
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: we want to hire more women and people of color,
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: but you know, they're just not out there, and it's like,
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: how can you keep how can you keep saying this?
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: You know, I mean they just they tend to hire
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: who they know, and they tend to mentor people who
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: look like them, which is very common. People tend to
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: make people who remind them of themselves at a younger age.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: But it just means they're reproducing that skew in who's
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: behind the scenes, like over and over, it's a little
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: bit better, but you know, a little bit better means
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: that maybe now I don't know, ten percent of Superhero
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: comics are written or drawn by women. And it was
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: five ten years ago, and it was two percent ten
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: years before that. So yeah, their growth is tremendous, but
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: it's growth from a very small number to a small
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: number slow. Okay, I do want to mention just one
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: other thing quickly. As I was concerned about I was
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: concerned how they would handle the military aspect. You know
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: that she's so imbued with being in the Air Force
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: and it's such a part of her identity and everything.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: I mean, she is always painted as someone who has
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: a strong sense of duty, but who will buck orders
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: if she feels like she should do that. But I
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: was worried that it would wind up being too militaristic
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: or too much a celebration of military solutions, and I
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: think they managed to to not do that so much.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: I think that they tried to show, you know, these
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: are the costs of war, and this is what happens
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 1: when you have too much of a military hierarchy where
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: people are just following orders and not questioning them and
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: stuff like that. Did you feel that way, Yeah? I
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: think so. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if anyone was so
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: stupid to give this movie to someone like Michael bay
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: to direct. I think that would not have been handled well.
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: But yeah, I felt nothing about the portrayal of anything
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: about the military struck me as being to glorify, like
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: glorification or anything like that. So no, no, I I
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: liked how it was treated. I don't know, it seemed
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: especially it's like, if this is the story, what is
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: the most responsible way to tackle it? And it felt
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: like that that route was taken. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah I liked this movie. Good damn it? What a
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: what a soundtrack to I mean, as a as a
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: nineties kid, I was like, you fell for it. I
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: felt for it. I can't help it. You know. It
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: was a good sound track. So, hey, does this movie
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 1: pass the Bechtel test Flying Colors? It does. Yeah, there's
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: a lot of different combinations of characters also, who talked
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: to each other that passed. We've got Carol Danvers and Maria.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: We've got her and Maria's daughter, Monica. We've got Maria
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: and Monica. We've got Carol Denver's and Wendy Lawson. You know,
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: they're talking about the Air Force, they're talking about their work,
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: their friendships. Um, setting a good example. We didn't really
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: touch about parenting. Yeah, they talk about everything, and there's
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: one like the world. They're almost like how women just
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: talk about stuff other than men all the time. There's
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: even a short exchange where the grandparents arrived to babysit Monica,
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: which they totally didn't have to do, so I appreciated
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 1: that they did it. And the grandparents arrived and the
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: grandmother is like, what's going on? And Maria is like,
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: thanks to combin mama or whatever. Oh I somehow missed that.
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 1: I was probably too busy writing notes because I'm such
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: a note head. But there is more. It's more of
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: a monologue. But there's a scene where Maria is telling
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: Carol like how strong she is and how awesome she
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 1: is eve and before she had you know, fire hands,
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: and we just like so rarely see like women lifting
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: up other women in stories that I was like, that's awesome.
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 1: I really liked that scene. It's nice. Yeah, yeah, passes
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: uh pretty handily. This movie. Let's rate it on a
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: nipple scale, all right, chelmy, zero to five nipples based
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: on its portrayal and representation of women. I think this
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: is like a solid four point five. It misses a
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: lot of the tropes and stereotypes that we've seen of
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: women thus far in super hero movies, and that's largely
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: because it's a woman driving the narrative, a woman whose
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: emotional journey and whose powers we are learning about and exploring.
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: And yeah, there's no, it doesn't fall into the traps
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: of like a love story has to be there, and
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: it's like, no, it doesn't. There's no makeover scene as
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 1: we just got stuff like that. So I think it
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: handles a lot of things. Well, I think I'm taking
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: off a slight bit of nippleage for the fact that,
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: as we discussed after Carol Danvers, the three core characters
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: are still men, and while she does interact with women
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: a lot, we don't know those characters as well, and
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: they don't have as much significance narratively as the male characters. Um,
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: so I think some justice could have been made to
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 1: make more of the female characters a little bit more
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: prominent in the story. But yeah, I think uh, I
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: think it's it's pretty cool. I like that a lot
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 1: of the main characters who we do get to meet
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: our people of color. I mean, there's no queer representation.
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: But it's also a pretty a sexual movie. So yeah,
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 1: there's no you know, queer romance, but there's no head
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: of roll romance either, so there's just no romance. So
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: that's all those Some people on the internet are reading
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: Carol and Maria as being oh, they're shipping that relationship. Okay,
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: I'm down for that. I mean they're already basically raising
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: a kid together, so there there and and uh it
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: stated outright that they're her family. I like that. So yeah,
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: four point five nipples and um each and everyone goes
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: to of course goose the flirkin. I'll go for on this.
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: I think I think that this movie is great for
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: the like next generation of movie goers. I'm really excited
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: for kids who get to see this movie, and I'm
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: jealous of them. I wish that there had been more
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: movies like this to to watch when we were when
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 1: the little youngsters, well we were tykes. I think that
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 1: general cultural impact is good. I'm really happy about it.
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: I do the nippicky things that sort of frustrated me
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: a little bit. Um was the general approach. I I
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: just it seemed some of the problems of that I
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: have with it are in the d n A of
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: the character that was written by men decades and decades ago,
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: but just the like, look, girl can do what boy do?
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: I kind of wish we were past that, um. And
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: it's a point that's been made handily so many times,
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: and I know that there's still such a large swath
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: of the world that doesn't believe it, um. But I
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 1: just the I don't love that being at the core
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 1: of a story I wouldn't like if I you know,
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: I would love for a daughter, niece, whatever of mine
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: to see an empowered female character that doesn't need to
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 1: constantly proove for skills against a man um but just
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 1: you know, moved through the world as a skilled, capable person,
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: and so that that was one thing that I didn't love.
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: But I don't I don't know how that could have
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 1: been avoided given how the character set up. I agree.
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 1: I think that because this is such a mainstream movie,
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: as all MCU movies are going to be, and a
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 1: lot of people who were seeing them are like, you know,
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: like in Cell idiot boys who were like, I think
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: they need to be spoon fed. Yeah. I also don't
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 1: know if any of those insults were mind were changed,
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: probably not by this, but they're they're just from my
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 1: super nitpicky standpoint that that was something that I was like.
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 1: Same with the second tier male characters. Yeah, I wish
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 1: that the secondary female character has had a little more prominence,
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 1: but the fact that they were there, I mean, I
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 1: liked its progress. Yeah, a lot of crawling this movie.
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 1: I love brill Larson. I enjoyed her performance. I love
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 1: who she is, what she stands for. She's got a
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 1: goddamn mosk arright now she's in the m c U.
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 1: She's making she's she's making it. She's great. I also
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 1: like that there is a lot of female representation behind
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 1: the camera in this movie. You've got a female co director,
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 1: you got majority female writers, you have a female composer,
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 1: a female co editor. So there are women involved at
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: every level in this movie, and I think it shows. Um. Yeah,
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: I'll give four nipples. I gave to to Captain Marvel,
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: and I'll give to to Maria. And I do think
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: Alvin Billina should have been Ben Mendelsohn's character. Well, I
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: agree with everything that you said, so I guess I'll
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 1: split the difference and say four and a quarter nipples.
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 1: Right on. I feel like I'd like to give them
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 1: all to the cat but well he's got five, you know,
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: some odd left. Yeah, I give a full set of
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: eight to the cat, to the clerkin. Excuse me, yes, no,
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: I mean I would. I'll give one to Brie Larson
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 1: and one to Lashana Lynch, one to Annette Benning, and
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 1: one too. I can't remember the little girl's name that
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: plays Monica. I feel bad about that, but um so
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 1: I'm holding back three quarters of a nipple. Why am
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: I doing that? Okay, I'm holding back one quarter because
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: when I went to IMDb and counted up all the
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: characters credited and uncredited, I discovered that there were seventeen
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 1: women and fifty two men, so that overall overall the
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 1: cast is women. So points taken off for that better Marvel.
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 1: But I agree with everything you said about the centralized
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 1: cast being more diverse and more you know, female centered,
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 1: and I liked that there was pretty good representation of
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 1: men and women of color too. I liked the lack
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 1: of sexualization and the lack of head of romance, and
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: that this was a story that I agree it's more
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: of a crawling than a running, but it maybe isn't
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 1: necessary first step to kind of bring people along a
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 1: little bit not the three of us, but others who
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 1: maybe are wavering a little bit on the idea of
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 1: women having actual strength. Um, so I'll hold back another
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: quarter of a nipple for what you said about how
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 1: after Captain Marvel. Really the other two stars are Samuel L.
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 1: Jackson and Jude law Right and and Taylor's and then
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 1: I'll hold back my third quarter of a nipple because feminist,
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 1: I kinda for Molina should have been tables. Yeah, missed opportunity.
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's the real main conversation around this movie
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 1: is like, where was the Molina offer? Unbelievable? Well yeah,
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 1: but overall I really thought they did a great job
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: trying to juggle a lot of things and please a
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 1: number of different audiences. Yeah, and and it's great that.
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: I mean as of this recording. We're recording this Tuesday
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 1: after it came out, and it just hit five million dollars.
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 1: It's doing you super well. These movies always do super well. Yes, Meg,
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 1: more of them. This is the biggest worldwide opening of
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 1: all time for a female starring film. Amazing. The number
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 1: one domestic female starring film is still Beauty and the Beast. Okay,
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 1: crawling action. It was Beauty and the Beast worldwide too,
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 1: but Captain Marble made more worldwide, and it's also the
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 1: second largest worldwide opening among superhero movies. The first was
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 1: Avengers Infinity War. That's great. Yeah, that's I mean, that's
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 1: very encouraging, and I hope that studios will take this
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 1: to heart and realize that they need to make more
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 1: movies about superheroes who are women and then also just
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 1: diversify that as well and include women of color and
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 1: queer women and other marginalized groups. I really hope that
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 1: we get a movie with Monica. Now, it was like, yay,
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 1: that would be great. That was fun. I was glad
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 1: that I want that. Now I'm like, oh cool. They
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 1: they went out of the way to set it up.
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 1: I want them to like reboot Avengers, like but hear
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 1: me out, so you don't. I'm exhausted. The Avengers will
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 1: be Monica Rambo sure from Black Panther, fucking Tessa Thompson's
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 1: character and Thor Ragnarok like all those awesome women who
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 1: and Miles Morales and Miles Morales. Yes, so like let's
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 1: get that cast out there and uh see that movie
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 1: and the new Miss Marvel um oh, who's I think
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 1: a Pakistani woman is Kamala Khan. And with within the comics,
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 1: she is like a regular girl who looks up to
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 1: Captain Marvel within the universe, and that's why she takes
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 1: the name Miss Marvel. She's inspired like her. That's been
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 1: been like a worldwide hit. It was, at least for
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 1: a while it was Marvel's number one international digital seller,
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 1: and it sort of did all these ideas like you
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 1: can't introduce a new character. You can introduce a female character,
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 1: you can introduce a character of color, You certainly can
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 1: introduce a character who's not Christian. But the Newman's Marvel
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 1: is all of that and selling like crazy awesome. I
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 1: love it. Can't wait for the movie it's going to
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 1: happen because it's like it's like Hollywood. You know, Hollywood
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 1: really changed his tune. It used to say, hey, women
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 1: need to be in subservient rules, and now look at them.
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 1: They're saying bitches love lady stuff. Progress. Look at that
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 1: progressive statement or ladies love bitches stuff. Yeah, oh yeah,
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 1: I love stuff. Give it a few years that too, well. Caroline,
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on the pod and
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 1: chatting with us, sharing your expertise. Thanks so much for
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 1: having me. I love this show, of course. What would
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 1: you like to plug? And where can people find you online? Oh?
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 1: Geez um, I do have a Twitter account which is
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 1: at Caroline Coca, which I honestly never used, so someone,
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 1: if someone wanted to get hold of me, you should
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 1: really email on me. So it's Coca Cee my last
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 1: name and first initial at Old Westbury dot E d U.
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 1: Stuff that I'm working on now isn't really out yet
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 1: to be seen, so I guess I would just mention
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 1: again that I wrote this book called Superwomen, Gender Power
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 1: and Representation, and that it is a history of seventy
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 1: five years of female superheroes with some really deep dive
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 1: focus on wonder Woman, bat Girl, Captain Marvel, the women
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 1: of Star Wars, the women of the X Men, and
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 1: Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Yes, by that book, it is incredible.
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 1: And yeah, thanks again for coming on, and thank the
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 1: to our listeners out there. Thanks for listening. Uh. You
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 1: can follow us on social media at all the usual
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 1: places at bectel Cast. You can buy our merch at
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 1: t public dot com, slash the bectol Cast, and we
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 1: have a promotion going on in which we are fundraising
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 1: for an organization called Black Girls Code. Um So, if
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 1: you buy our Rise of the Matriarchy shirt that can
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 1: be found at t public dot com, slash stores, slash Bechtel,
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 1: dash Cast, dash cares. I know that's a lot, but
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 1: it's on our like Twitter, and we'll make sure it's
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 1: very accessible for people to find. Um So, yeah, by
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 1: that Rise of the Matriarchy design and proceeds go to
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 1: Black Girl's Code. You can also sign up for our
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 1: Matreon a k Patreon by going to patreon dot com,
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 1: slash Bechtel Cast and it's five dollars a month and
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 1: you get to bonus episodes every month. So yeah, thank
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 1: you a getting Carolin, we really appreciate. Thank you, and
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 1: make sure just to pet your family florkin today, but
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 1: don't hold them up near your eye. Yes, no, don't
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 1: do that. But yeah, we'll see you next week. Bye
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 1: bye