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Leaping into Freelancing: Amanda Henderson's Journey to Success as a Freelance HR Specialist · Work It Like A Mum

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hey, i'm Elizabeth Willits and I'm obsessed with helping as many women as possible achieve their boldest dreams after kids and helping you to navigate this messy and magical season of life.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: I'm a working mum with over 17 years of recruitment experience and I'm the founder of the Investing in Women Job Board and Community.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: In this show, i'm honored to be chatting with remarkable women redefining our working world across all areas of business.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: They'll share their secrets on how they've achieved extraordinary success after children, set boundaries and balance, the challenges they've faced and how they've overcome them to define their own versions of success.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: Shy away from the real talk?
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: no way.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: Money struggles, growth, loss, boundaries and balance We cover it all.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Think of this as coffee with your mates the mixed with an inspiring TED talk sprinkled with the career advice you wish you'd really had at school.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: So grab a cup of coffee or a glass of wine, make sure you cozy and get ready to get inspired and chase your boldest dreams, or just survive Mondays.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: This is the Work It Like a Mum podcast.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: This episode is brought to you by Investing in Women.
• 1:15
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• 1:27
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• 1:32
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• 1:41
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• 1:49
  Speaker 1: Now back to the show.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to this week's Work It Like a Mum podcast episode.
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: Today I'm delighted to chat with Amanda Henderson, who works as a freelance HR specialist.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: Amanda left the corporate world after having her second child to set up Amanda Henderson HR.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: We'll be talking about the ins and outs of setting yourself up as a freelancer blinding clients, pricing, chasing invoices, setting boundaries and growing your freelance business.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much, amanda, for joining me today.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: It's an absolute pleasure to chat with you and learn more about you and your experiences and, obviously, amanda Henderson HR.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: Thank you very excited to be here.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, i'm so curious because you know 70 people freelancing.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: It's becoming a really popular career choice.
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: Was it something that you wanted to do as you entertained that thought before starting, you know, for having your children, or when you first started in the corporate world?
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: No, I'm still surprised and have to pinch myself that I am running my own business.
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: To be honest, i think naturally I'm quite a risk averse person and it all came about through my network.
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: So when I was on my second maternity leave, i was I just about completed my level 7 CIPD.
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: So HR was the area that I absolutely wanted to get into and I was approached to do a contract at that point and it was very interesting doing it.
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: They knew that I'd be taking calls with a six-month-old on my knee and so on.
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: I just absolutely got, i guess, a real taste for it, like I enjoyed the work so much.
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: It gave me the chance to apply all my operational backgrounds in the HR setting, which is where I thought you know would be what I could bring to a party.
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: And I was a few how many months?
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: four months away from going back to work and it just became a bit of a now or never sort of thing.
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: So that first contract led on to a second contract and I started to think, okay, you know, do we do this, do we do this?
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: And I used my LinkedIn network in a really big way.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: So I'm sure lots of industries are similar, but hospitality.
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: It's quite a small world.
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: Was that your industry?
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that was my industry.
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: So I started with a company called Mitchells and Butler's, who are enormous, and lots of people from M&B had gone on to other brands and other things.
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: So I was able to message lots and lots of people on LinkedIn with my sales pitch, as it were, and that got the ball rolling and I actually ended up with clients sort of from almost the ex I can't really describe it, but it's like an offshoot of hospitality.
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: So my clients is a marketing agency, for example for the hospitality industry.
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so they were doing like employee value proposition stuff for another company that I'd work with.
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: So they asked me to come on board and because I guess I'd got that four months of build up and I was letting people know that I was doing it, i was very lucky to have a bit of a cushion, as it were, in terms of time.
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: And then I guess because of Covid and how the market changed so much, i think it seemed to be very hard to find recruiters.
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: So I kind of knew that if it didn't quite go to plan and I'd probably be able to get a job relatively easily back recruiting which was the job that I was doing before I went on my two Matt leaves.
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: So yeah, i was still in shock.
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: So were you sort of doing, i feel you know, sort of behind your employees back?
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: were you keeping it quite on the download that you were doing these contracts whilst you're on maternity leave, or did they know about?
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: it.
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: I'm a super honest person, almost to a full.
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: My mum says you should always look after number one, but I do feel it and it's loyalty and I need to be very upfront.
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: So I did let my last employer know that I've been asked to do the contract and there is a bit in the contract about, you know, second employment.
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: I also needed to check whether it would affect my mat leave pay because I wasn't sure at that point.
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: You know how that would pan out.
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: So no, i was super honest and let them know.
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: But equally, i was still very open to going back.
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: So I did do two days in the months running up to it and just to be sure, because the world has changed so much like I've been off nearly three years, because it was Matt leave, covid Matt leave and the business had changed a lot in that time changed ownership, changed people.
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: So I did give it a fair shot and it's almost down to my husband.
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: You know my husband has a lot more faith in me than I do, if I'm honest and he was the one that sort of pushed me out the nest and be like, just do it, just see what happens.
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: And yeah, here we are, so you will want.
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: You were in recruitment but you wanted to move into HR, so you hadn't, so you basically did.
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: You did you be doing your CIPD?
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: is that right?
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: yeah, so I'm funding.
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: I get.
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: I was very lucky that my employer paid for that and and it was all online and I'd started it before.
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: The level seven is quite a big commitment and I'd started it before I was, before I love was born, i was my eldest and and just all working through the modules but then the provider wouldn't let me have a study break for having the kids, so they told me that I needed a sick note if I wanted a study break and I was a bit I didn't feel great.
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: I'm not surprised in coming from like Seattle D, which is nature, which is all meant to be.
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: you know about people and Yes, i wasn't very thrilled with the provider and we had a few heated debates over that.
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: But yeah, i was completing the level seven, i had exams to do and I had small children at that time And I think it's one of I'm sure we all have periods like this where we look back and we're not quite sure how it all happened.
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we did it, how we got through it.
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: But I guess if you know you've got to get something done, you always just put your head down and do it.
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: I guess, Yeah, if you've got a deadline.
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: Wow, so you you've not mentioned that your early client you've got your first client because they came to you.
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: How are there people listening to this that are maybe interested in setting up freelance And they want to know?
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: you know the ins and outs.
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: How do you find your early clients and get your business off the ground and the money coming in?
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, i think I was.
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: I was so lucky because of my network.
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: People within my network knew that I had a goal of moving into HR in terms of my career.
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: So it was actually an agency recruiter that connected me with the right people for that first role And this is the one that I've known for over 10 years.
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: We know each other really well and he had placed me in operational roles a million years ago when I was an area manager, and I guess that agency recruiter position meant that he knew lots of key decision makers in hospitality businesses.
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: So that was how the first in came about, and then the MD of that company was similarly a consultant, so he would go in sort of sort businesses out and then move on to the next one.
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: So that's where my second and quite substantial contracts came from.
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: The next business was I followed him So, partly because I was way too cheap and I know we're going to come on to Feeze.
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll talk about pricing.
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you cheap when I first started.
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: But you know, i hope you know to think that he saw what I was hoping to offer, you know, an operational, sensible approach to HR.
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: So yeah, i worked with him for a good period of time And I guess I was kind of thinking about it like how do I build the week?
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: So what I've never wanted to do is have one commitment that is 100% to one client.
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: That feels too risky from a strategic perspective But it also, you know, obviously there's IR35 to consider but it also blurs the line of that employee contract relationship if you're completely committed to that contract And that will suit some people.
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: But something I was really mindful about was how I could use the opportunity of going into contracting almost suppress the reset button on my ways of working.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: So all of my clients I had SLAs that would describe communication times, the ways of working, what they could expect from me right from the off, which actually I think a lot of employment relationships could benefit from doing as well.
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: Definitely some learnings.
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: So yeah, so I was talking about building my week.
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: So I would have.
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: I think my biggest commitment at the time was two days a week with one client.
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, with one client, that was the biggest when I started, but that would be across the four days.
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: So I want to always feel present to clients and available, but yeah, doing that sort of spread across the days.
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: And then I was building on top of that.
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: So you know, i got a half day here and a full day there every month And then I also leaned back a bit on what I knew.
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: So I did go and work for the recruiter that I've mentioned already, that knew me and come to me.
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: So I did some recruitment work for him because, whilst that isn't what I wanted to be doing forever And you know I think I'm pretty good at recruiting I hope you can say so, and that also meant that I could sort of build in a fixed base into the business, that for a period of time I knew the X amount of money was coming in, and from there on, in it's all.
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: It's all worked really nicely, if I'm honest.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: So I think, because of having smaller contracts when one's gone away, it's not been a period of crazy panic.
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: But then others seem to have come about And there's an awful lot to be said for obviously doing a good job and then getting those recommendations, because I've I've not actually done any proactive marketing other than LinkedIn.
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: Everything has come about of doing a bit of work for someone and then they've mentioned me to someone else, and so on and so on, which is a very privileged position to be in, i'm sure.
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: But then also I need to tell myself well, you know, i must be doing something right.
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, people to be passing things on.
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: I guess Do?
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: you mentioned you were doing some initial messages, some outreach messages on LinkedIn.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: There'll be some people that feel quite potentially quite icky about doing sales messages Or that feel very confident.
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: How did you approach those outreach messages when you first started?
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really hard one to craft.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, i totally get what you're saying about the ICC And yeah, it's the only time I've done anything like that.
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: And you know, i guess it took me a while to write sort of my sales pitch And because it was a LinkedIn message, i didn't want it to be too long.
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: I think that's really important.
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: We all get flooded with LinkedIn messages And I knew that I needed to capture really early doors what I was able to offer.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: And I guess the time that I was going to market was when we were still feeling the fallout of the pandemic And unfortunately, lots of people had downsized their HR departments And we're reducing their fixed costs in that way to help the business survive.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: And I guess my pitch to market was you know, i can provide a service, but with a lower commitment from you, because it's only sort of one day a week, so very early doors.
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: I think you need to get in that business pitch.
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: You know well how are you making a difference to the day to day of my business in terms of cash flow And then how are you making a difference in terms of the value that you can add?
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: So the second bit was about how, because of my experience as an operator, as an area manager, you know I was used to managing, managing teams of sort of 10, 12 people.
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: I was used to being accountable for a P&L.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: You know I could say to, i could say to restauranters you know, i know how your fridge should be organized And I also know how you can avoid a tribunal.
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: And it was a.
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: I wanted it to feel tangible.
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: I think HR has probably got a little bit of a an image problem that a lot of wonderful people are doing amazing things to overcome.
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: But where?
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: oh HR don't get us.
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: You know they're over here and they're every tower or head office.
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: And That's not me.
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: I get it, i've been there, i've run the business.
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: Here's how I can add value.
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: So in a really waffly way.
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: How can you affect the business immediately in terms of a cash flow perspective, And then how do you add the value when you are there?
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: What's that USP?
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and how did you know which businesses to target them?
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: Because obviously there's thousands and thousands of businesses on LinkedIn.
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: So I just went to people that I knew and I was really lucky that I'd worked for such a big company early on in my career and people had gone on to different brands.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: Equally people, i guess throughout my career, have gone on to different brands And I wasn't.
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: So a lot of the people that I was targeting were in senior positions and in decision making decisions put my teeth in.
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: But I was also reaching out to just people that I knew, because you never know what needs their friends have got or their family have got, and there's definitely a bit of luck with that.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: We're catching people at the right time.
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: But I guess if I needed to, i would go again and I would look at, say, the town that I live in so I live in the Midlands.
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: There are lots of businesses that I know, just in being out and about with their kids, that I can almost assume they have zero HR presence, and those would be the ones I would target.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: I think there's a bit of a sweet spot with sort of small to medium sized businesses.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: They're sort of a cusp of where you can't quite afford full time HR, but actually you've got enough people in your team that you definitely need some HR, and when we talk about HR, there's a whole range, right?
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: So I have thoughts about doing tiered pricing, so whether there's like an amount where you know, i'll just advise with keeping you on the straight and narrow from a legal perspective.
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: And then the next tier up is OK, let's look at how we do job descriptions and performance management, that sort of thing, and then maybe the next tier up we're talking about culture.
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: That's something that I've toyed with and that might enable me to support different businesses in different ways.
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Interesting And you know, it's really interesting what you said about the outreach and the element of luck and just catching people at the right time, Because I've got two freelancers that work for me that do slightly different things, but they reached out to me and they reached out to me on the right day.
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: It was a day when I was so busy I was working really late on both those occasions I thought I just can't do it all by myself anymore.
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: I think there is.
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: There is so much benefit actually if you can get over that ickiness to just doing that reach out.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: And you know, they've been with me now, both of them now for over a year.
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: So you mentioned.
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: IR35s.
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: There'll be people listening to this and thinking what's IR35s?
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: So do you mind just giving the listeners an overview of IR35?
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: Definitely not an expert, but just at a very top level.
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: So the government brought in some legislation with a very sexy name IR35.
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: And it basically is designed to stop employers organizations getting out of their responsibilities for paying things like national insurance and so on, by using contractors instead of employees.
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: And what the difference is is there's a questionnaire that you can do on the government website that will help you understand whether or not you might, may or may not, fall out of IR35.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: But if I was working full time for a client for an extended period of time, it would be quite hard to argue that actually this is an employment relationship and me invoicing them actually is just allowing the organization to get around their other responsibilities with national insurance and so on.
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: So it's something to be aware of.
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: But the questionnaire on the government website is dead easy to look at and it might be worth doing for every client you work with, because all the situations can be different.
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: Interesting.
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: So you're thinking of freelancing and you get off of something five days a week long term, then that might not be a freelance contract.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: No, it might not be freelance.
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: I think also I would say you know, don't be scared to take a mix of different types of contracts.
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: And you know, it might be the fixed term contract comes up where technically you are an employee But that doesn't stop you from you know, you're still, you can still trade as your business, you can still do extra projects, So you still got your business after it.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: You know, I don't think it's necessarily a it has to be 100% transition to being a contractor, because the world's changing all the way that you're doing, Elizabeth, different types of contracts are coming up and it might be that actually a blend of being an employee and being a contractor actually works for you.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I don't think it's all or nothing.
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: If that makes sense, Brilliant.
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: So I spoke a little about pricing.
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: So you said you felt you were too cheap when you first started and I think we all feel like that, but it's you know, it's hard as you launch, you don't have you don't really have a track record.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: you just trying to get you out of the door.
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: So talk to me about pricing.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: What was your pricing strategy then and what is it now?
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: how has your pricing evolved?
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah gosh, what I would tell myself two years ago.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: So when I first started, i made the terrible error of working out what my day rate was based on my salary, which is a massive fail from a contracting perspective, because you know you as a contractor, you should be paid for the fact that you're taking risk by not being an employee and you need to factor in the fact that you don't get paid for holidays and so on, and you know there's lots of other benefits that you need to factor in.
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: So, to anyone listening, do not work out your day rate on your current salary.
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: Don't do it.
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: And I think my approach with my pricing has been bad.
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: I think it's been slow to adapt and to increase and I, you know I now set a day rate that's about two and a half times where I started on two years ago, and part of that is absolutely going to be experience and recommendations and that the you know the power of that in this new role And part of it's absolutely a confidence thing, like I wish I'd been more confident going to market because actually I'd had a lot of great work experiences and I'd worked with lots of different types of businesses in positions with quite a serious responsibility and, as well as the studying which we've mentioned, and I wish, wish, wish I'd been more confident and I think I probably suffered from our old friend imposter syndrome or imposter thinking, which I think is a nice way to think about it.
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: Follow Dulcey Swanson on LinkedIn.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: And I, i didn't have the confidence in myself that I was worth what I was asking, and that really annoys me And that is something that I still battle with today.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: Like I said, i've consciously tried to set boundaries with being stricter on the hours that I'm working and my availability and so on, but I've got this little thing on my shoulder saying to me are you giving the best value, are you good enough?
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: Because I've got that voice.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: That voice is there on me.
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: Oh, and it's mad And I try and rationalize it And I'm so humbled to be in a position where all my works come from referrals.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: I've never had a single challenge on my availability or the quality of my work, But I can't unhook myself from that thinking.
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: So I'm actually.
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: I've just signed up for a coach.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: I was going to save you because I've got a coach And I had one I first launched And then I've come with her again And she made me up my prices last month when I signed back with her And I had to do it because I knew if I didn't do it she'd be crossed.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: And you need that someone there actually saying no?
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: I think you need you know, particularly when you work on your own and you don't have a manager to go up and ask was this all right?
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: We've done this right.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: Actually, it's very good to have a coach, yeah.
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: I'm really excited to start that.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: That bit about working on your own is really interesting.
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: So I've never really had an office job On my grad scheme.
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: A million years ago we spent stints in the office working the different functions, but the majority of my work in life has been remote.
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: It's been quite lonely.
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: You know, as an area manager And even when I was a recruiter, that was all mostly working from home or would be in the restaurants a little bit, and actually when you're in that position you also don't know what good looks like.
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: So I've never, i've never sat next to a people director doing their thing.
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: I've had relationships with HR, business partners, but in a more removed way, just because of the structure of the business And I.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: That hasn't helped, i would say, in terms of me assessing my own value and what I bring to the path Me.
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: It's all me sort of sense, checking against myself and what I know.
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: But what I know isn't the world out there in the world at large.
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: So I do feel like there's a bit of a missed opportunity there, just from the way my work in life has been set up.
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: I think it's interesting what we're talking about pricing because we're obviously talking about it from a business perspective.
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: But there is a lot of evidence that shows that in corporate setting men are more likely to ask for pay rises.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: You know, or you will know this from recruitment, that you know men are more likely to push back and say no, i want a bigger job offer.
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: And it's sort of I wonder if it is a confidence thing or if it's a thing that maybe women don't want to rock the boat.
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: We don't want to be unlikeable.
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, i think all of those things are such a complex issue And I, you know, i advocate and I encourage the women in my network to work so much to get what they deserve.
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: But it's hard to take your own advice, sometimes Absolutely.
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: I think the I've loved having my coach.
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: I'm a real advocate for having that accountability.
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, i hope you know, i hope you get on well with with your, so also would talk.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: This is another thing that I think is really important to talk about with freelancing is the invoicing.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: So getting paid.
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: So you've obviously set your price there, you've done the work.
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: How do you get paid as a freelancer?
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's been some learnings there as well, so I am just to be of no contact.
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: So I set up as a sole trader and I'm just going through the process at the moment of setting up as a limited company and, yeah, finally using accounting software which I've never used before.
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, that's interesting.
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: In terms of invoicing.
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: So again, i wish I could rewind the clock two years and just tell myself to sort of out.
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: So I invoiced at the end of the month, and I was only so.
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: I'd have about six or seven invoices a month to do.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: So not huge Yeah a little bit of time, but it wasn't crazy.
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: So I was doing it myself.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: And then I don't know why, but in my head I had somewhere that I had to offer 30 days payment terms.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Why did I do that?
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: Why am I saying it's?
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: OK, You know what.
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: But I'm like looking at you thinking well, that's on my invoice, But I think that's because on my invoice software that's the standard.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: You know, it just seems to be.
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: Why is that the standard?
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: I wish I hadn't done it.
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: So we're cool of January and then I probably won't get paid till March because they might not pay on time.
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because they run to their own payment schedules And we only pay them on the fourth of them, or whatever they.
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: That is daft so that I would change that if I went back.
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: But I think I just thought it's what contractors did.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: On the whole, people were pretty good at paying me, but I didn't have in any late payment clauses or anything like that, which was daft Again.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: I also didn't have any clauses in my SLAs service level agreements around actually downing tools if you didn't pay me, and which is mad.
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: And I did have a case that cost me.
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: I lost out about fifteen hundred pounds with a client.
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: This just went AWOL.
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: I mean, it was a lot of money.
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: This was quite early doors, so it was a lot of work time wise, because my day was low at that point And I did try and take them to small claims courts.
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: But something else to watch out for top tip everyone is.
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: The business was set up in a very complex mix of companies and sub companies and parent companies And the name on my bank statement of who was paying me was different to the company that I was invoicing.
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: Like, looking back, it was all very odd.
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: And then obviously I didn't work in trying to do a small claim because it was all such a mishmash of which business I was actually trying to claim back against.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: So that was a really big learning for me And that was relatively early doors.
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: So I started part time in the April, went full time in the September And this is about in the December with one of my clients.
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: Went bad, but learnings, we've got to take the learnings.
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: So now I'm moving all my clients to my, my limited company, so obviously it's a separate legal entity as a legal company.
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: So I've recontracted on all of my SLAs, so my retained clients now pay upfront Why wouldn't you?
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: Payment terms are a lot shorter, so I think it's seven days now And then if I'm not paid that I'm just not on that client until they pay me.
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: My biggest client currently is still in arrears, but they pay within seven days of the invoice And they've sort of rolled over.
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: So again, when that comes to an end which it will in about the summer, i know I've got some capacity coming up in Q3.
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: And I will re-contract again depending on what that project looks like.
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: But yeah, i would definitely say to everyone like like, you've earned your money, make sure you get your money in terms of your terms of payment and everything.
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: Also, don't have a set SLA.
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: Like different things will work for different businesses.
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: Like you said, some businesses have got their own set pay runs and you're getting paid on the fourth and that's that.
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: And so, yeah, just be flexible, but don't be afraid to just say right from the off you know here's how we work and here's why I work, and because it's not great when things don't come into the bank account?
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, it's been a real, real lesson.
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: Do you write your own contracts or did you get a legal person?
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I don't actually do full contracts, I just work with service level agreements and they massively evolved over the years with my different learnings And that's worked fine.
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: I think I guess with the services I'm offering, that has worked out fine.
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: Where it's been more project based work, I might do separate proposal documents that would detail a bit more specifically around.
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: You know what is involved in that specific project and what it's going to cost and so on.
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: But no, I found service level agreements to work fine for me And, if you know, I'm more than happy to share mine with anyone.
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: If they want to drop me a line on LinkedIn or anything, that's completely fine.
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: Well, that's very kind, Thank you.
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: So you also, before we jumped on the call, you also said how you feel freelancing has accelerated your learning, your career.
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: You've done things you would never have done in a couple of settings.
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: You want to just expand on that.
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it really has, and it's something I've been thinking a lot about.
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: So my biggest contract at the moment, three days a week.
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: I'm people director for a small hospitality business in London And I have to catch myself a lot that I've been asked to do this role And I think what freelancing has given me is such a breadth of experience very, very quickly And I've done an enormous range of things in the two years.
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: But I just can't help but think back to sort of a traditional and inverted commerce career path where you know, if I'd have perhaps stayed in regular employment, recruiters would have looked at my CV.
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: They wouldn't have seen any specific HR roles on there.
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: They would have said, ok, at best, you know, maybe coming as a HR business partner and then I'll do that for four years.
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: So then maybe I'd look to be ahead of people and then that would be another four years And I could easily be 12, 15 years down the line in my HR career and then only then potentially getting to the role that I've achieved now.
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: And I feel very lucky to be in that position.
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: But then also it makes me a little bit sad because I think there are so many people that have so many different experiences that aren't in a position necessarily where they can take the risk to become a freelancer.
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: But recruiters and hiring managers this isn't all on recruiters and hiring managers can have quite fixed ideas as to what they want from the next hire And I guess I hope I'm kind of proof that it can work if you pull from perhaps a more non traditional background, because there are so many crossover skills to be had.
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: And you know don't get me wrong I think doing my level seven CIPD and my other qualifications put me in really good stead as well.
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: It's a bit of a combination, but I would really say if anyone listening is a hiring manager or recruiter, i guess just think what else someone can bring to the party.
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: And if you only come from a traditional career path, i guess you're potentially only bringing quite a particular set of skills And there might be more within someone that the CVs maybe not fully describing.
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so you talk when we speak about pricing.
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: You spoke about the little voice on your shoulder that says Oh, you're not good enough.
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because I have that voice And I'm sure you feel the same as me.
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: It's then.
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: How do you then set boundaries with your client?
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: because you want to go over and above, you want to prove yourself, you want to prove that your small business can compete with the big boys.
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: How?
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: And you can maybe do that for a little bit, and then, inevitably, you get burnouts.
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: So how do you set boundaries?
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: and what does your typical day now look like?
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: now, maybe to how it starts.
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really hard.
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: So I think if you work with multiple clients, i would really strongly encourage having a block mindset with your day.
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: So initially I was trying to do something for one client and then a phone would ring over another client and I thought I've got to answer it because they're paying me.
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: So I've got to answer that call immediately And then I've got replied to that email and that's not a productive way of working.
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: So I quickly found a rhythm where actually I was just kind of booking my day an hour or two hour slots where I was fully committed to that client and I'd taken on work that I knew you know would fill the week.
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: So that was very, very helpful And that also helps with billing, because what I was really worried about was that someone would come back to me with a challenge of oh, have you, have you really done four hours on that?
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: That was all.
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: that was a really big fear of mine that I can't rationalize.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: and actually having it was just an Excel spreadsheet with all my clients in different columns and what I'd done and what day and how many hours kind of gave me the reassurance that, no, i did do all of that.
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: So I was never asked for it, but I had that and that helped me manage my time and gave me the backup if ever I was asked to justify what I was charging, which I never was.
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: So that's the madness In terms of my day, i guess.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: Like a lot of us, i've got hard boundaries with the kids.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: So the kids are in nursery three days a week.
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: My mum and stepdad have them on Tuesday And then we have girly Thursday.
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: So I've got two little girls and girly Thursday is sacred.
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: Only in exceptional circumstances Am I available on a Thursday, and I've been very clear with all of my clients from the off that that's.
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: That's how it is, and there's definitely times, like for all of us, where kids have been poorly or you know, something's happened that has cut into the workday.
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: But I don't mind picking stuff up in the evening if needs be, and so, yeah, one thing I would like to get better at is like going for a walk at lunch and all the advice that I would give my clients for healthy working life.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: Again, quite bad at taking my own advice, but yeah, i'm waffling a little bit, but that that block booking out of the day and the tracking of the hours I found really helpful And it's probably an app or a software where you can do that as well, like that's quite normal behavior for agencies with booking work.
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it must be.
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: a lot of consultancies.
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: will you know track charge, don't they By the hour?
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: So it probably is.
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: And what's the next Spiromander?
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: Henderson, hr, is it just you at the moment?
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: Are you planning?
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, just me for now And, like I said, i'm just registering and I'm waiting for my VAT registration, which is so slow.
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: So thread HR limited will be launching on LinkedIn soon.
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: Oh, OK, so it won't be Amanda Henderson, hr No.
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: And that's again quite a strategic move because I want to work with more people this year and I've made some great connections with people that could work as associates, that I've got to know and are ready for work And I'm very excited to start working with associates and working, i guess moving more into that business owner mentality Like it's not sustainable for me to be doing everything I've definitely been working at over 100 percent capacity because you don't know when the next bit, like money's coming in, and so on And I need to move away from that mindset And I need to.
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: I need to remove the expectation that I'm doing the work as well.
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: So with yeah, with the HR limited because HR done well, yeah, it's a business together and makes it stronger.
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: And yeah, working with associates this year, you know, i guess my deal as well for me in a personal goal would be to work with other mums that are looking to work flexibly and do stuff.
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: There's lots of project based work that comes across my desk that would really see associates and people that want to work in a more flexible way Brilliant.
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: And people find you connect with you.
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: No more about you.
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: Thread HR and, yes, amanda Henderson I think CIPD is my name on LinkedIn Thread HR.
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: I think I'm going to put it live as soon as this Blim and Fat registration comes through, so that we have the next week or so.
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: And, amanda Henderson, hr is also on LinkedIn.
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: Another project for me is that I need to sort a website out.
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: Do you know?
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: I've got a brilliant developer.
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: I can recommend them to you after the recording Well, thank you so much for your time, amanda.
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: It's been an absolute pleasure to chat with you.
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: and then, what about freelancing and how you set up your business?
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: Oh, lovely to meet you.
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to another episode of the Work It Like a Mum podcast.
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review and subscribe, And don't forget to share the link with a friend.
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: If you're on LinkedIn, please send me a connection request at Elizabeth Willett and let me know your thoughts on this week's episode.
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: You can also follow my recruitment site Investing in Women on LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram.
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: Until next time, keep on chasing your biggest dreams.