Latest / The Grove Church / Exploring End-Time Views: Premillennial, Amillennial, and Postmillennial Beliefs Explained

Transcript

Exploring End-Time Views: Premillennial, Amillennial, and Postmillennial Beliefs Explained · The Grove Church

• 0:05
  The questions we wrestle with as Christians about who God is, how do
• 0:09
  we live out our faith, what is the Bible, what is the truth of the
• 0:12
  Bible, what are we supposed to believe? How are we supposed to live? There
• 0:15
  are really big, deep questions that we ask each
• 0:19
  other, that we ask God, that we wrestle with ourselves.
• 0:23
  And that's why the Cultivate podcast exists, to help us go deeper in
• 0:27
  our understanding of who God is, his word, and the way that
• 0:30
  he's called us to live.
• 0:34
  Hey, everyone. Thanks for joining us. Cultivate podcast. I'm Charlie
• 0:38
  Lofton, lead pastor at the Grove Church. So glad that you are listening
• 0:41
  and we have with us the staff member that Charlie loves.
• 0:45
  Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. Have you tried that on
• 0:49
  anybody else yet? Not yet. Not yet. Okay. But it'll be coming. Battle testing. Yeah.
• 0:53
  Okay. It's perfect. It's perfect. I got Abigail.
• 0:57
  Yes. Our awesome producer, expert question
• 1:00
  asker, and podcast host. Thanks so much Of course. Being with
• 1:04
  us. And we are been going through some various,
• 1:08
  academic bible kind of topics, theology topics. We
• 1:12
  did a class called SummerSlam. SummerSlam.
• 1:16
  It has to be said like that. SummerSlam. Yes. Yeah.
• 1:20
  Kinda like a car commercial used car. I got that. I got that.
• 1:24
  Sunday. Sunday. Sunday. Sunday. That's tractor pull. Yeah.
• 1:29
  Demolition derby. Yes. We're
• 1:32
  kinda doing some various theological topics. And I've been interviewing
• 1:36
  the teachers that were doing those, but I taught a couple of them. And during
• 1:39
  those, you've been interviewing me, and we've been talking. We
• 1:43
  started last episode talking about book of Revelation. Sure. And
• 1:46
  the big picture question was, why should we study it?
• 1:50
  And I feel like like we did something different than what I was able to
• 1:54
  do with Mark in our last series. Did the answer. We answered that question
• 1:57
  first. Yes. Here is why we should answer it. And I feel like if
• 2:01
  you didn't listen to that, you should go back and listen. I think it was
• 2:04
  you know, helps us understand, like, kinda why it's there, kinda what its
• 2:08
  purpose is, why maybe we've kinda misunderstood it, and
• 2:12
  really why and how we should study it. And there
• 2:15
  is a way. We didn't mention this last time. There's a way for people to
• 2:18
  send more questions if they're interested. Yeah. Remind us of
• 2:22
  that email because I don't remember it. Info, infothegrowthchurch.org.
• 2:27
  There you go. If you have if you feel like you didn't answer the question.
• 2:30
  Or you have a different question, a different topic that we should be covering. Yeah.
• 2:33
  I would love I would love to hear that. Over there. I would love to
• 2:35
  hear that. Yes. I could just give them your email since
• 2:39
  you are the producer. Yes. Just direct it to
• 2:43
  me, and then I'll I'll I'll see if it's added out.
• 2:46
  Into your web browser, and you'll come up. And something will be there. Yeah.
• 2:52
  But here's the thing that I knew. I mean, honestly, I mean, I made a
• 2:56
  joke about it when I was at summer seminar. I was like, why should
• 2:59
  we study this? Like, well, because it's it's in the Bible. Five second answer.
• 3:03
  Mhmm. Then I gave a 2 minute answer to that question, which was, you know,
• 3:06
  it's meant to keep us from getting deceived by someone who
• 3:10
  claims to be Jesus and to give us hope in a chaotic
• 3:14
  world. Mhmm. And so that's a simple
• 3:17
  answer, but I assumed that
• 3:21
  that there was more behind the question. Right.
• 3:25
  Not just why should we study it, but while you're here, Charlie
• 3:29
  Mhmm. Could you also Right. Could you
• 3:32
  also tell us a little bit more kind of about it?
• 3:36
  So Mhmm. I spent some time doing that, and you were there. Yes. What did
• 3:40
  you think? My mouth continually kept dropping
• 3:43
  wider and wider Yeah. As you're explaining more and more of
• 3:47
  it. I didn't grow up knowing a ton about Revelation. Okay. And so the
• 3:50
  more You went to one of the more gentler denominational churches growing up. Yes.
• 3:54
  And so the more and more you said, I think I sat there
• 3:58
  sitting next to 2 of my friends and I kept turning around and be like,
• 4:01
  is that really in the Bible? And they're just like, yeah. Yeah. He's not making
• 4:04
  up stuff up there. I was like, what? I needed
• 4:08
  confirmation that Charlie wasn't making this up. Yeah. It's a crazy
• 4:11
  book. I am somewhat creative, but I'm not creative
• 4:15
  enough to come up with the content of the book of Revelation. That's
• 4:19
  fair. And so, like, that's when people say is, like, that like, John just made
• 4:22
  that up, but I'm like, bro. Wild imagination. That is
• 4:26
  a very vivid imagination. Right. One of my favorite theories, we
• 4:30
  haven't really gotten in where this is getting into the weeds. We haven't even talked
• 4:33
  about the the forest yet,
• 4:37
  is that some of the things that he's describing, like multi headed
• 4:41
  monsters and these kinds of things, is that he had
• 4:45
  a vision of, like, the actual future
• 4:49
  and saw what a modern war would look like
• 4:52
  Oh, okay. And did not have the words to describe a
• 4:56
  helicopter. Woah. See the
• 5:00
  right. And there's a jaw drop. No other I have no idea if that's
• 5:04
  true, but then it's just like, I don't know. It's kinda like this giant
• 5:08
  flying bird with a lot of heads and multiple tails and made
• 5:11
  a screeching loud noise. Yeah. Just Yeah. That
• 5:15
  that some of that could be, like, a moment. I think Right. Maybe. Right. So
• 5:20
  we spent some time, and I'll just kinda start here. Kinda start with the
• 5:24
  general overview of what we'll just call the 3
• 5:28
  major Right. Theories of revelation. Do you know well, go
• 5:31
  ahead. I don't know all of them, but you did just kind of mention I
• 5:34
  grew up in a denomination that was a little bit softer on it. So there
• 5:38
  are Shittler is what I said. But there are
• 5:43
  a multitude of, throughout
• 5:46
  history, interpretations of what this is. Yeah. It's not just a
• 5:50
  straightforward, this is exactly what it means. So we're gonna kinda dig into that a
• 5:53
  little bit. And I grew up in a I grew up not only the denomination,
• 5:57
  but also at a period of time where there was a lot of Right. Yeah.
• 6:01
  Obsession is too strong a word, but we'll just use it because it's there.
• 6:05
  Like, a a real a real intense focus Right. On this issue. So let me
• 6:09
  see if I can get them. Post tribulation,
• 6:12
  pre tribulation, and amillenialism? What? That
• 6:16
  is three words that we will discuss. Dang it. No. No. No. But it's like
• 6:20
  it's fine. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. So the core word
• 6:24
  that all three of these viewpoints have is the word millennial.
• 6:29
  Okay. Okay. Which means what? I don't
• 6:32
  remember how much, but it's a time period. 1000 years. 1000 years. Okay.
• 6:36
  1000 years. And so the where you you you were
• 6:40
  really, really close. K. Premillennial,
• 6:43
  postmillennial, and then all millennial. Okay. So all three
• 6:47
  of those, the key the keywords there are millennial. Millennial means a
• 6:50
  1000 years, and then pre, post, and ah are
• 6:54
  prefixes that we know what they mean. Pre means Before. Post.
• 6:58
  After. Ah. During. Nope. Nope. Like, ah,
• 7:02
  theist. Does not exist? Yeah. I did yeah. Just
• 7:06
  just a not. Okay. Not. Okay. I'm not a theist. I'm a not
• 7:10
  theist. I'm not a millennialist. I'm a not millennialist.
• 7:13
  Okay. Okay. So what does that mean then? So millennial
• 7:17
  refers to the idea that Jesus
• 7:21
  is going to reign as a king for a
• 7:24
  1000 years. Okay. And that 1000 years may be literal, it may be not
• 7:28
  literal, or maybe super literal depending on where you are, but just
• 7:32
  think about that there is a description in the
• 7:36
  in Revelation that Jesus is going to reign
• 7:39
  for a 1000 years on the Earth. And is this the bulk of what
• 7:44
  Revelation is talking about this millennia? No. It actually I would
• 7:47
  say the bulk of Revelation is talking about what it happens in the years
• 7:51
  leading up to that. Okay. Okay. A time called the tribulation.
• 7:55
  Okay. It's a very vivid description of 7 really, really
• 7:59
  hard years that are gonna happen on the Earth. And so these different points of
• 8:02
  views are discussing when that will happen. Right. And then there's those 3
• 8:06
  points of views that we've got this we've got this idea. Jesus is gonna reign
• 8:10
  on the earth for a 1000 years, and that may or may not be
• 8:13
  literal. So when does Jesus come back? Does
• 8:17
  he come back before this reign,
• 8:21
  after this reign, or does this reign not even
• 8:26
  exist? Okay. So a premillennialist, Jesus
• 8:30
  is coming back before Okay. The 1000 years. A postmillennialist,
• 8:34
  Jesus is coming back after the 1000 years. Mhmm. And an
• 8:38
  amillennialist says, you guys are taking all of that way too
• 8:41
  literally. There is no such thing as a millennial kingdom. Okay.
• 8:45
  So it's not necessarily the book of Revelation is not
• 8:49
  true. They just don't they think it's not a literal
• 8:52
  interpretation. Right. Yeah. So no one is I I wanna say this.
• 8:56
  This is really important. This is really important. The use of the
• 9:00
  word literal. I interpret the Bible literally.
• 9:04
  Now there is that is that
• 9:08
  is an overused word. It is a misunderstood word. And when
• 9:11
  people say now when I read Revelation, I take it literally.
• 9:15
  You don't take it literally because you don't think that the
• 9:19
  antichrist is literally going to be a beast.
• 9:23
  Sure. Do you think it is going to be a person, and he's described as
• 9:27
  a beast metaphorically? Right. So there are the and and the book of
• 9:30
  Revelation is full of metaphors. And so in the strictest
• 9:34
  sense, no one is taking the book of Revelation
• 9:38
  literally. But on a relative
• 9:41
  scale of how the events that are
• 9:44
  described metaphorically, how literally do I believe that all
• 9:48
  of those events are going to be true is on a scale. Mhmm.
• 9:52
  And so there are some that are certainly more literal than
• 9:56
  others, but I would not describe any of them as, quote,
• 10:00
  literal. To the textbook literal. Because, again, it's a person, not
• 10:04
  a beast Right. Even though he's described as the beast. Mhmm.
• 10:10
  And so they believe that what is described
• 10:13
  as, the millennial
• 10:17
  kingdom is just the description of the age of the church.
• 10:20
  Okay. Where Jesus, the holy spirit is on the earth.
• 10:24
  He's reigning. He is reigning as king in your heart.
• 10:29
  He is reigning as king in the church. And you you mean big city
• 10:32
  church? Right. But he's not reigning as king as king
• 10:36
  of the earth. Right. That isn't going to happen. Mhmm. And so it is
• 10:40
  meant to be more he is the king. He is the
• 10:44
  king on the earth even if he is not literally king on the
• 10:47
  earth. Okay. Like, he is king. He died and rose
• 10:50
  again. And according to Philippians, you know, he was given the name that is higher
• 10:54
  than every name. He's he is reigning as king right now
• 10:58
  Mhmm. In some senses of the word reigning as king.
• 11:02
  Okay. And so there's not going to be some point in which
• 11:05
  he is more literally reigning as king on the earth Right. Than
• 11:09
  what he is right now. Okay. It's just he is the king whether or
• 11:13
  not we see him or whether or not a significant portion of the population
• 11:17
  acknowledges that or not is irrelevant. Right? Is it he is the
• 11:20
  king. So I just wanna make sure I'm crystal clear on this.
• 11:24
  So the book of Revelation is describing
• 11:29
  letter to the churches, all that, and then describing the end of the
• 11:33
  world or how this is gonna happen. And so there's 3
• 11:36
  describing something that appears to be a kingdom, a a a
• 11:40
  kingdom of Jesus reigning. How
• 11:44
  literally do I take that? Is that one of the
• 11:47
  biggest questions? Okay. Because how literally we
• 11:51
  take that reign is gonna put you more
• 11:54
  towards one of these three categories. K.
• 11:59
  So the amillennialist is the easiest to
• 12:02
  explain k. Because it is so just imagine a
• 12:06
  timeline in your brain. We got everything that happens in the Bible. Jesus
• 12:09
  dies on the cross. The Holy Spirit comes. Jesus goes back up to
• 12:13
  heaven. I guess he goes back up to heaven, then the Holy Spirit comes. Right?
• 12:16
  The church is on the Earth, and
• 12:20
  then something is going to happen, and then
• 12:24
  Jesus is going to come back. And when you say church, do you mean just
• 12:27
  Anytime I say church, I always mean capital c church in this context. And you
• 12:31
  mean just like any Christian on The the the the
• 12:35
  The population totality of Christians in the world Okay. Is the
• 12:38
  capital c church Mhmm. In my shorthand Okay. In this discussion.
• 12:43
  And so the church is here, has the Great Commission,
• 12:47
  varying degrees of success in doing what God has called us to
• 12:51
  do, and then Jesus is going to come back
• 12:56
  and set the world right. The world will come to an
• 12:59
  end, and then believers will leave live with
• 13:03
  Jesus in heaven, and people who didn't
• 13:07
  follow Jesus will be separated from God forever. And
• 13:10
  so what happens between this period in which the church has been
• 13:14
  given the Great Commission and the very end is kind of the answer to
• 13:18
  what Revelation is describing. And typically, an amillenius will
• 13:22
  be like this is all very metaphorical,
• 13:26
  and is really just describing that it is going to be a very
• 13:29
  turbulent world. Mhmm. It's gonna be very broken. A lot of
• 13:33
  bad things are going to happen. There are going to be people who are claiming
• 13:37
  to be Christ. There's there's gonna be there's gonna be
• 13:41
  chaos and wars and all of these different things. The world is
• 13:44
  gonna get progressively worse and worse. Jesus is gonna come
• 13:48
  back. Armageddon, which is kind of this battle that
• 13:52
  happens at the end of time will happen. Jesus will win. The earth
• 13:56
  will cease to exist. We'll go to heaven or hell depending,
• 14:00
  and there is no real point
• 14:03
  in time where Jesus is reigning on the earth. Okay. And this is
• 14:07
  allmillennial. Right.
• 14:10
  Postmillennial is also fairly easy to describe.
• 14:15
  It says, you know, the the the the
• 14:18
  bad stuff that is described is kind of the the tribulation. That is kind of
• 14:22
  the the period that we're going through right now. Mhmm.
• 14:27
  There's just bad stuff happening. People claiming to be
• 14:30
  Jesus, natural disasters, punishment, smiting, all of these
• 14:34
  bad things are happening everywhere, but God has given us the
• 14:38
  great commission, and slowly but surely, we are going to
• 14:41
  Christianize the world. K. The world has become a better place
• 14:45
  morally. It's gonna be become prog more and more people are going to
• 14:48
  become Christians. It is gonna get to a point to where the
• 14:52
  world could be described as
• 14:56
  a good place, and a
• 15:00
  Christian, a Christian world and a good, a morally good world.
• 15:03
  Mhmm. And so we will be bringing about, we will create
• 15:07
  the kingdom. Heaven on earth. We will create the millennial kingdom.
• 15:11
  Okay. So Jesus will reign on the Earth
• 15:15
  because we made it happen through our efforts to
• 15:18
  make the world progressively better and progressively more Christian.
• 15:22
  Right. So then once we have done that
• 15:26
  for a 1000 years, then Jesus comes back and
• 15:30
  is like, good job, guys. You
• 15:34
  know, some version of Armageddon happens. The last vest
• 15:37
  that, you know, the last bits of evil in the world, Satan and
• 15:41
  his demons will be destroyed, put down, the world will end,
• 15:45
  be separated into heaven and hell, and that that's
• 15:49
  how the story ends. So the the kingdom does exist. It's
• 15:53
  something that we bring about, And once we have brought it
• 15:56
  about, Jesus comes and reigns. Mhmm.
• 15:59
  Right? Premillennialist
• 16:04
  is is the one that probably most people are familiar with. Okay.
• 16:07
  This is the one if people are really into and the word is
• 16:11
  eschatology, the study of the end times. People are really
• 16:14
  into it. They're almost always going to be premillennialists, and
• 16:18
  they're just debating kind of nuances of it. And this is the one
• 16:22
  that most people who are really into this are familiar
• 16:26
  with. Okay. If you're not really into it and not particularly
• 16:30
  familiar with it, you may be one of those other ones, but this is the
• 16:33
  one that gets talked about the most. Okay. And it is described by the people
• 16:37
  who believe it as the one that is the most literal. Okay. And the way
• 16:40
  it describes it, you know, you got Jesus, and that Holy Spirit, the church is
• 16:44
  here, and then at some point at an undetermined time, there
• 16:48
  will be a 7 year tribulation on the earth, a
• 16:52
  literal 7 years of pain and tribulation
• 16:56
  on the earth, and that and this guy called antichrist will come.
• 16:59
  There'll be a one world government, a wool a one world religion.
• 17:03
  He's gonna establish this kind of
• 17:07
  anti God, anti Jesus,
• 17:10
  harsh one world regime. And there'll be a
• 17:14
  time in the first part of it where people who aren't Christians will think,
• 17:18
  this is actually really good. This is gonna is, I guess, gonna
• 17:22
  be great. Like, there are a lot of people right now that would love for
• 17:24
  there to be a one world government, and then we're all united under one government,
• 17:28
  one religion, and it sounds really good in a lot of ways. And it will
• 17:32
  be presented, and it will exist in a way that that seems
• 17:35
  good except for the Christians that are around that are gonna be like, you're
• 17:39
  rejecting you're rejecting Jesus. This isn't good. Right.
• 17:43
  But then there will come a point even in that 7 years where even the
• 17:46
  people who were like, I like this guy are gonna be like, wait. Turns out
• 17:50
  he's a bad Not that great. He's a bad guy. Yeah. And things are just
• 17:53
  gonna get progressively worse and worse over the course of the
• 17:56
  7 years. And then at the end of that
• 18:00
  7 years, Jesus is going to
• 18:04
  come and establish
• 18:08
  a a literal kingdom on the earth. Mhmm. So
• 18:12
  they will have to be some sort of battle, not
• 18:16
  the epic battle, but they have to be some way which Jesus kind of
• 18:20
  cleans house a little bit. Takes over from the one world leader. And and takes
• 18:23
  over as reigning as a literal king on the earth Okay.
• 18:27
  For literally a 1000 years. Right. After that 1000
• 18:31
  years is over, again, the last remnants of
• 18:34
  evil in the world, will unite
• 18:38
  and try to overthrow Jesus the king.
• 18:42
  Mhmm. Jesus will rally his forces, both spiritual and physical,
• 18:46
  and there will be an epic battle of the end of the world referred to
• 18:49
  as Armageddon. Armageddon. And
• 18:53
  Jesus will win, and then after that, there will be a new heaven
• 18:57
  and a new earth. Right. And so there is a 1000 year reign,
• 19:01
  but Jesus comes before that. He comes
• 19:04
  before it and establishes it. A premillennial as opposed to a postmillennial,
• 19:09
  we bring about the kingdom and then Jesus comes. Right.
• 19:13
  Or the amillennial, there is no such thing. It's all metaphorical.
• 19:17
  It is that is just a a a spiritual description
• 19:21
  of the reality of who Jesus is in the hearts and lives
• 19:25
  of the capital c church and Christians as individuals.
• 19:29
  Yeah. So to tell you how far removed I was from understanding any of this,
• 19:33
  you know, the Megalodon?
• 19:38
  You're talking about the giant shark? Yes. I thought Armageddon
• 19:42
  was another monster like the Megalodon. Okay. And
• 19:46
  so you said it in your talk, and I was like Most people's familiarity
• 19:50
  comes with it from the Bruce Willis movie. I know. And I'm,
• 19:54
  movie wise, uneducated and haven't seen it. Well, I mean,
• 19:58
  how old were you in, what, 1997?
• 20:03
  I was a Chris 98. 98? I am. Chris
• 20:06
  4. Okay. Yeah. But you're
• 20:10
  familiar with the Aerosmith song. Right? Nope.
• 20:14
  Don't wanna close my eyes. Is that
• 20:18
  called Armageddon? All the sleep because I miss you,
• 20:21
  baby. Is that from that movie? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Ben Affleck
• 20:25
  and Tyler have his there's a love story. In in addition to it possibly being
• 20:29
  the end of the world, Liv Tyler and Ben Affleck are falling in love.
• 20:33
  That's really epic. And that is that is that is a song. That is that
• 20:36
  it it it revitalized Aerosmith's career for the
• 20:40
  2nd time. I love that. They were great, then they were gone. Then Run DMC
• 20:43
  brought them back in the eighties, and they were gone for a little bit. And
• 20:46
  then you say, you know, Walk This Way. Absolutely. That's a Run
• 20:50
  DMC. Run DMC. It's incredible. One of the most important pieces of
• 20:54
  music in music history, I would argue, but that's a different podcast.
• 20:57
  Really? I mean, as far as, like, the impact that it had I mean, yes.
• 21:01
  Culturally. Massive, and you brought 2 genres together that For the first time.
• 21:04
  Yeah. Okay. We could debate it at another podcast. There's no there's
• 21:08
  no debate. I mean, I'm not saying it's the most important, but to say that
• 21:10
  that is one of the top in pop music history, that's one of the top
• 21:14
  most influential Okay. Important songs. There's no
• 21:17
  anyways, Beatles on Ed Sullivan.
• 21:22
  Okay. I do agree with that one. Armageddon, end
• 21:26
  of the world. Right? And so Armageddon, it's you know,
• 21:29
  it you know, that movie is about a potential end of the world. And so
• 21:33
  that's what this Armageddon is. And so there is there again, so it's
• 21:37
  all centered around this 1000 year reign, this 1000
• 21:40
  year kingdom. It doesn't exist. I'm a millennialist. We bring it
• 21:44
  about ourselves, then Jesus comes back postmillennialist.
• 21:48
  The world is getting awful. Jesus comes back to fix things, sets
• 21:52
  up the rain, and then after the rain, Armageddon happens. Right.
• 21:56
  So when you pre is the one that has the
• 21:59
  7 year tribulation, all that,
• 22:03
  in a different order, or did they not believe that'll happen at all
• 22:07
  in the post tribulation or post You can't it's you can't
• 22:10
  pin everyone down with one broad brush. Okay. But by and
• 22:14
  large, the tribulation is just a descriptor
• 22:18
  of how bad it is before we, Jesus, defy
• 22:22
  the world. Okay. Okay. It is gonna be
• 22:26
  but it is not a literal Right. Not a literal 7 years.
• 22:29
  Mhmm. Again, that's why I would describe premillennialist
• 22:33
  as the most literal even in the hood as I could be rightly said
• 22:37
  completely literal. It is the most literal. Now that is a literal 7
• 22:41
  years. They're definitely the most literal when it comes to
• 22:44
  time frames. Mhmm. 7 years, 1000 years. Very literal
• 22:48
  about that. And I think it's important to you to make sure while while we're
• 22:52
  here, on the premillennialist, and this is kind of when you were saying
• 22:56
  what the three things were, you got these words in there. Within premillennialism,
• 23:00
  there are 3 different types of
• 23:04
  that. Okay. And so the 7 year
• 23:08
  tribulation time, some people believe in
• 23:12
  what is called a rapture. Mhmm. And maybe you've heard that phrase before.
• 23:16
  That phrase. Where Jesus comes back partially Mhmm. And
• 23:20
  all the Christians get called up, and then they go up to heaven
• 23:23
  with Jesus, but it's really not the second coming of Jesus. It's
• 23:27
  like did you ever see the Lion King 1a half?
• 23:32
  1a half. Yeah. No. Okay. Anyways, it's the Lion King 1 from,
• 23:36
  Timon and Pumbaa's perspective. I did see that. A pure sequel.
• 23:40
  Yes. They call it Lion King 1a half. Yes. I did see that. So it's
• 23:43
  not Jesus coming back the second time. It's that he's like half. Like, he
• 23:46
  sort of sort of comes back. Kinda like meat in the sky? Yeah. Meat in
• 23:49
  the sky, and then go back up into heaven, but then later Jesus comes back.
• 23:52
  Okay. And so if you believe in a rapture, and you believe
• 23:56
  that that rapture happens before the tribulation,
• 24:00
  then you are a pre tribulation,
• 24:03
  premillennialist. Okay. So Jesus comes back partially at the
• 24:07
  beginning of the tribulation. The 7 year tribulation happens.
• 24:11
  Jesus comes back for real, establishes a 1000 year
• 24:14
  kingdom, then Armageddon happens. So that perspective would
• 24:18
  be saying that Christians are not here for the tribulation. Right.
• 24:22
  The only Christians that will be here during the tribulation are people
• 24:26
  that become Christians in the tribulation. Okay. Okay.
• 24:30
  So then a mid tribulation Mhmm. Person would be
• 24:33
  someone who believes that there will be the
• 24:37
  the first half of the tribulation, the first three and a half years. But before
• 24:40
  it gets really bad, Jesus comes back.
• 24:44
  The Christians go up. Those last three and a half years happen.
• 24:49
  Jesus comes back for real, establishes the 1,000 year
• 24:52
  kingdom. So a mid tribulation, premillennial.
• 24:56
  Mhmm. Okay? Then there are premillennialists
• 25:00
  who don't believe in a rapture that Jesus is going to sort of come back.
• 25:04
  When he comes back, he's only coming back fully. Oh, yeah. So the tribulation
• 25:08
  happens. All Christians that are around experience all of
• 25:11
  it, and then post tribulation Jesus
• 25:15
  comes back. Premillennial. So in the Right. So it happens right after
• 25:19
  the tribulation, but before the millennial kingdom is when Jesus comes back. And
• 25:23
  that is the only time that he comes back. There are no partial
• 25:26
  rapture Right. Times. Right. And so
• 25:30
  so the 3 main categories, amillennial, post millennial,
• 25:34
  pre millennial, and then pre millennial gets broken down into
• 25:38
  Even more. Do you also believe in a rapture? Right.
• 25:42
  And if so, when does that rapture happen? The
• 25:46
  pre trib would say that it happens before the tribulation, the mid tribs
• 25:50
  would say it happens in the middle, and the post tribulation people would
• 25:53
  say there is no such thing as the rapture. Okay.
• 25:57
  Historically, Right? All 3
• 26:01
  of the premillennial, amillennial, postmillennial have
• 26:05
  had ups and downs in what people believe. Yes. People who
• 26:08
  believe some of all of that. Wait just a
• 26:12
  second. Mhmm. I'm
• 26:15
  gonna double check
• 26:20
  the battery. Historically
• 26:26
  So historically, all three of these different
• 26:30
  views have been around for a while. Mhmm. Pre millennial,
• 26:34
  amillennial, post millennial, and they come in and out of favor.
• 26:38
  And as we were talking about, in the previous episode,
• 26:42
  there was a a lot of postmillennial talk in
• 26:46
  kind of early America. Yeah. Especially around the Great Awakening,
• 26:49
  the 2nd Great Awakening, these time periods where there just seemed to
• 26:53
  be a lot of real interest in the gospel, where America seemed to
• 26:57
  have this kind of destiny to kind of take over all of
• 27:01
  North America, and they're just there was a lot of optimism
• 27:05
  around the expansion of what was believed to be
• 27:09
  good. America was good. It was a Christian nation. It had a
• 27:13
  destiny to kind of be to take over all of this
• 27:16
  and to rule and to take Jesus everywhere. There was a
• 27:20
  lot of optimism around that
• 27:24
  that even the civil war in the in the mid to
• 27:27
  late 1800 couldn't couldn't dissipate that
• 27:30
  because good triumphed.
• 27:34
  Mhmm. So the all of a sudden, you get past
• 27:38
  the 19th century into the 20 early 20th century,
• 27:42
  then we get in around 1911, 1914, somewhere
• 27:46
  around in there. And nothing happened. And all of a sudden, the
• 27:49
  First World War happens. Right. And that
• 27:53
  was a very, very dark time in the history of the world. Mhmm.
• 27:57
  And so a lot of people, Christians included, lost a
• 28:01
  lot of their what we'll just call kind of a post millennial
• 28:05
  optimism. Right. An optimism that the world is on a
• 28:08
  track to become progressively better. Yeah. That kinda
• 28:12
  Right. Big time tanked it. But you can still but, again,
• 28:17
  the good guys the good guys won. Ultimately did. Right. And so maybe
• 28:21
  a few of us can hang on, but it is not 30 years
• 28:25
  later Than another. That another World War
• 28:29
  Mhmm. Starts worse than
• 28:32
  the first one in a lot of ways, especially in a lot of
• 28:36
  its religious components. Mhmm. Way worse.
• 28:40
  And it really feels like that for the most part,
• 28:45
  postmillennialism is dead.
• 28:48
  Right. There might be still some some some little vestiges of
• 28:52
  it from from from here here here to there, and there's some
• 28:56
  people that still talk that way. A lot of missions people will
• 28:59
  talk that way about that. We've got a job to do, and until we
• 29:03
  do our job, Jesus won't come back. Right. Which is
• 29:07
  a very postmillennial but a lot of people say it,
• 29:11
  if you ask them, would say that they're premillennialist, but they But to talk like
• 29:15
  let's talk like that. But but the nations have to be reached, and every
• 29:18
  tribe and tongue has to be reached. Well, that could theoretically happen in the
• 29:22
  tribulation. Right. Mhmm. I mean,
• 29:27
  all the things that are going to happen that are described in the tribulation
• 29:30
  about the way, how vividly God's gonna
• 29:34
  raise up these witnesses. Supposedly, Moses and and
• 29:38
  Elijah are coming back, and they're gonna be test
• 29:41
  and and it's crazy the way the revelation describes it is. And they're gonna be
• 29:45
  testifying in Jerusalem and the whole world is gonna see it. Right. How would
• 29:49
  John even have a concept of that? That one thing could happen in
• 29:53
  Jerusalem and the whole world can see it. He had a vision of Hunger
• 29:56
  Games where the announcement comes, you know, and everybody
• 30:00
  can see. If you were to make me say, Charlie, you have to become a
• 30:03
  pre trib premillan whatever. Right? I have to become I have to a
• 30:07
  100% buy into this. Yeah. I mean, the technology
• 30:11
  that is described, I think, that the whole world will
• 30:15
  witness events all at once. We're not quite there yet.
• 30:18
  Mhmm. But we can definitely see it from where we are. We are very
• 30:22
  close to the whole world being able to see an
• 30:25
  event. Right. Yeah. And not just because it happens supernaturally
• 30:29
  in the sky, like, we can all see the moon and the sun at the
• 30:32
  same time, but just in a anyways.
• 30:36
  And so so there's plenty of opportunity
• 30:40
  for all the things that missions people think have to happen before Jesus comes to
• 30:43
  happen in the tribulation. We can we can
• 30:47
  talk about that without talking like postmillennialists. Right.
• 30:51
  Because ultimately, just the optimism of the world
• 30:54
  progressively getting better just went down. Yeah. I I I just don't really think there
• 30:58
  are very many places, at least in Christian circles
• 31:02
  That believe that. That believe that. You'll still hear hints
• 31:06
  of it from time to time in non Christian or
• 31:09
  Christian adjacent world. You ever that thing where, or,
• 31:13
  you know, you miss all the shots you don't take? Jordan? Jordan
• 31:17
  slash Michael Scott. Wayne Gretzky or whatever. Wayne Gretzky. Yeah. Yeah.
• 31:21
  Slash slash Michael Scott. Yes. So there's a there's a there's a phrase that
• 31:25
  Obama used to use that the arc of history is
• 31:28
  long towards and it bends towards justice. Yeah. That is
• 31:32
  a very postmillennial idea. Yeah. Mhmm.
• 31:36
  Right? He got that from That, I don't know. I got it from
• 31:40
  Martin
• 31:43
  Luther. Gandhi.
• 31:47
  Close. And so it's really you know, it has
• 31:51
  has some Hinduism in it, co opted by probably
• 31:54
  a guy. Maybe I might know for sure that Martin Luther King Junior had any
• 31:58
  postmillennial. Right eschatology in it, but the and then co opted
• 32:02
  again by Obama in a more secular,
• 32:06
  political kind of ideal. But, you know, but
• 32:10
  but that that that's the idea that there's still there's there are
• 32:14
  still some places where that sort of optimism might
• 32:18
  be expressed. But by people who take the Bible the most
• 32:21
  literally, there is almost none of that. Right.
• 32:25
  And so then it just becomes between really
• 32:29
  premillennial and amillennial. And then amongst the premillennialist,
• 32:32
  do you believe in the rapture or not? And the rapture is a fairly
• 32:36
  new development. It didn't really come into any sort of
• 32:40
  prominence, so maybe the late 1800, early
• 32:43
  1900 with kinda which kind of included this kind
• 32:47
  of resurgence in a very literal premillennialist
• 32:51
  Muslim. And the people that kind of put this
• 32:54
  idea together were initially, it's kinda like, okay, you guys are you guys are crazy.
• 32:58
  You're taking this all of this way too literally. Mhmm.
• 33:02
  And you you think that there's gonna be this rapture because this verse
• 33:06
  here says that this one church in the first part of
• 33:09
  Revelation is not gonna have to experience the worst
• 33:13
  parts of the tribulation. So you're bringing that in. But then also, if you
• 33:17
  take it all as literally as some of these premillennialists do, it
• 33:20
  describes that Israel is gonna become a nation again. Mhmm. And a lot of this
• 33:24
  is gonna happen within the nation of Israel. And in the late t late
• 33:27
  1800, the idea that the nation of Israel would ever exist again
• 33:31
  Right. Was insane. Right. Yeah.
• 33:36
  So there's a lot of postmillennialism, lot of optimism. These
• 33:40
  people come up with this idea of the rapture, the super literal idea
• 33:43
  of premillennialism, the, the creation of
• 33:47
  the nation state of Israel again. They sound like lunatics. Mhmm.
• 33:51
  World War 1 happens, World War 2 happens, and then the nation of
• 33:55
  Israel is reestablished by, by the
• 33:59
  United Nations. And then suddenly, everybody's like
• 34:03
  Well, maybe we need to give these guys another look. Right.
• 34:07
  Right. Yeah. And so I say that it is probably in a
• 34:10
  lot of Christian circles, the most popular and well known
• 34:14
  version of eschatology. That's
• 34:17
  true, But at the same time, it is a
• 34:21
  relatively new development that caught on because of its ability
• 34:25
  to seemingly predict Right. The establishment of Israel as a
• 34:29
  nation state and coupled with the
• 34:32
  crushing of optimism through 2 war wars. Mhmm.
• 34:36
  And so now, again, a lot of the debate, especially in a lot of evangelical
• 34:40
  circles happens around whether
• 34:43
  or not there is or isn't a rapture. Like, listen. Significant
• 34:47
  group of people out there. The debate is over. Premillennialism Is
• 34:51
  it? Is it. Uh-huh. We just gotta decide if there is a rapture and
• 34:55
  when there is a rapture. That that that is where the debate is. And, again,
• 34:59
  if you came from, again, a gentler denomination or, you know, some
• 35:02
  of your more mainline denominations like Methodism, Presbyterian, Lutherans,
• 35:06
  those kinds of things like that, they're like, man, we're maybe, like, I don't really
• 35:10
  know what you're talking about right now, which for most people then, I
• 35:13
  would describe that most people who aren't in people who are,
• 35:17
  quote, into it are some version of premillennial. Okay. The
• 35:21
  people who aren't in it, I've I would say mostly are kinda
• 35:24
  functional amillennialists Mhmm. Where it's like, things are gonna
• 35:28
  get bad and Jesus is coming back. Yeah. Yeah.
• 35:32
  Like And there's, like, the breakdown of I don't I mean So
• 35:35
  that is one of my questions. What is the
• 35:40
  what is the aim of people studying this? Is it to prepare,
• 35:44
  or is it to just simply interpret scripture correctly?
• 35:48
  I would say the primary goal in that is from people who believe that from
• 35:51
  cover to cover, we need to fully understand everything that the
• 35:55
  Bible says. Okay. That there that that it is in and of
• 35:59
  itself a good thing to
• 36:03
  know the Bible really well. Mhmm. That it
• 36:07
  does not matter if it does or does not have a practical application.
• 36:10
  The knowledge and understanding of what the Bible says
• 36:14
  is an inherent good on its own. Mhmm. And
• 36:18
  so there are people out there, theologians that would say that
• 36:21
  would that would scoff at people who would say it doesn't
• 36:25
  really matter. Right. You know, what he it's just one author
• 36:29
  in particular first to it as eschatological
• 36:34
  I have agnosticism. Okay. Eschatology
• 36:37
  being the study of the end times and agnosticism being who
• 36:41
  knows and who cares. Right. And so that he would describe
• 36:45
  that as a moral a a morally bad thing. Right.
• 36:48
  Because But that'd be more like the whole not wanting to know what the
• 36:52
  Bible teaches and having a a thought on it.
• 36:56
  Mhmm. Like like, to not have that would be a
• 37:00
  it means you are and what? Spiritually lazy. Right. You're not interested in
• 37:04
  the bible, and so knowing is enough. It doesn't
• 37:07
  matter like what we talked about last episode whether or not you can come up
• 37:11
  with any specific application for it. There's no there's no
• 37:15
  specific application for knowing that
• 37:18
  Elijah and Moses are gonna come back and preach for a certain period of
• 37:22
  time, and they're gonna people are gonna try to kill them, but they can't.
• 37:26
  The Beast can't overcome them until a certain period of time, and then when he
• 37:29
  does, the Beast is gonna kill them. And then when the Beast kills
• 37:32
  them, everybody's gonna be able to see it, and they're going to
• 37:36
  basically establish a new Christmas around it. It's gonna be
• 37:40
  something that becomes celebrated. The people are gonna give gifts to each other because
• 37:43
  Moses and Elijah finally shut up. Like, is there an
• 37:47
  application? No. Is there a practical application for me? I just dropped
• 37:52
  5 to 6 sentences of just knowledge just right on you of what
• 37:56
  pre millennialist think. This doesn't have any practical
• 37:59
  application, but it's in there. Yeah. And so you should know it.
• 38:03
  Yeah. There are gonna be a 144,000 witnesses
• 38:07
  to Jesus that are all gonna come from ethnically
• 38:11
  Jewish people, 12,000 from each tribe, and they're gonna be
• 38:14
  roaming evangelists in the world. Do you do you
• 38:18
  need to know that? Right. Is it gonna change anything about your
• 38:22
  life tomorrow now that you know that? Mhmm. No. But it
• 38:26
  is inherently a good thing that you know it because knowing stuff from
• 38:29
  the Bible is in and of itself important. So
• 38:34
  this is kicking it back to kind of some stuff we talked about the very
• 38:37
  first episode of the SummerSlam series. Where would you put this in the
• 38:40
  house? Right. Okay. So for guys who don't know we're
• 38:44
  talking about, there's talk about everybody has to build a theological house.
• 38:49
  The soil are the things that are essential to Christianity. Where am I gonna
• 38:53
  put my house? I'm gonna put my house in the Christian soil. So I must
• 38:56
  believe the things that are essential to Christianity, which for the most part,
• 39:00
  I sum up around Jesus Christ died for sins. Mhmm. I need to know who
• 39:04
  Jesus is, I need to know what sin is, I knew why his death has
• 39:07
  anything to do with that. Right. Then the foundation are the, like, the
• 39:11
  most important truths that you build in that dirt. What I
• 39:15
  believe about the scripture, what I believe about the trinity, what I believe about,
• 39:19
  you know, who
• 39:23
  who the holy spirit is actively in my life. I those kinds of things. Right?
• 39:27
  And then the important things are kind of the nature of my house, which are
• 39:30
  the things that this distinguish one denomination from another. They're
• 39:33
  important, but I don't think we should fight about them the way that we do,
• 39:38
  whether or not, yeah, whether or not we should baptize babies or
• 39:42
  not. It's imp that's important. It's important.
• 39:46
  But I don't think we should I don't think we should fight over it, and
• 39:49
  I don't think being wrong on that issue is going to have huge,
• 39:53
  long lasting effects the way the Bible is just kinda
• 39:57
  hit or miss. Take it or leave it. Like, that okay. That you can come
• 40:00
  to Christ and believe that about the Bible, but you're gonna struggle if you
• 40:03
  continue to believe that. And then we talk about then the interesting
• 40:07
  things, which are kind of the decorative pieces. All due respect
• 40:11
  to you, esque eschatology heads out there. Man, it
• 40:14
  is it is the it is the
• 40:18
  piece of art that you put in the guest bathroom downstairs.
• 40:22
  Garden gnome? Yeah. I mean, it's it's it's
• 40:26
  it's the it's it's the piece of decorative thing for your
• 40:29
  yard that your grandma gave you 7 years ago, but she's still
• 40:33
  alive. And so I have to keep it. Display it. Right? Yeah. Right? But it's
• 40:36
  like it's okay. Make it has it has a
• 40:40
  there's a reason why I have it, but it's not like
• 40:44
  it's not critical to the survival of the house. Yeah. The
• 40:47
  pieces of this that are critical to the survival of the house are the things
• 40:51
  that we talked about last episode Mhmm. Which are
• 40:55
  Jesus will win. I have hope in this world and then and in the next
• 40:58
  no matter how bad things go. Yeah. And I'm not gonna get deceived about
• 41:02
  when or if Jesus is coming back. Yeah. He is coming back.
• 41:06
  He's coming back in this way, not this way, and I have hope in
• 41:09
  I have hope in him no matter how bad this world gets. Mhmm.
• 41:13
  I think that is important bordering
• 41:17
  on foundational. Mhmm.
• 41:20
  But whether or
• 41:24
  not whether or not I believe it's Moses
• 41:28
  and Elijah, or Elijah and Enoch that are gonna be the 2
• 41:31
  Jewish witnesses, and whether or not I
• 41:35
  understand or who? He says that the Antichrist is gonna come from the
• 41:38
  East. Mhmm. East of where and how far East?
• 41:43
  Right? Come on, man. Yeah. We're now we're
• 41:47
  just talking about varying shades of white that you're gonna paint your
• 41:50
  kitchen. Yeah. No. It's not white. It's eggshell. Like, okay, bro.
• 41:54
  And it matters. I hear my wife talk like that about varying
• 41:58
  paint colors. Right? And I know that it is important to
• 42:02
  her, But it is not a structure is
• 42:06
  not structurally keeping the house up. Right. Yeah.
• 42:09
  Yeah. So, ultimately, from all of this,
• 42:14
  it's a book of the Bible. It's worth reading because it is a book of
• 42:17
  the Bible. Right. It also can affirm your hope
• 42:20
  that we have in Jesus and that he will
• 42:24
  overcome the world, has however you wanna phrase that.
• 42:28
  And then there's really interesting things you can get into. Right.
• 42:32
  But not necessarily, like, you have to read the book of John to understand
• 42:36
  your faith. Yeah. I understand why people find it interesting, and
• 42:40
  this is why I use that particular word. This is interesting to me, and
• 42:43
  it is great. You wanna study something that is interesting to you.
• 42:48
  Great. But it's not important enough for us to get angry with each
• 42:52
  other because you're a mid trib Right. Premillennialist,
• 42:56
  and I'm a post trib premill you know, I have to
• 42:59
  fight about it. But sometimes we fight about things because, well, that means you
• 43:03
  don't understand the Bible, Abigail. And if you don't understand the Bible, maybe you don't
• 43:07
  even really believe, and then we just Right. Right. But I
• 43:10
  I mean, it's not it's interesting, and it's in there. So it's great to
• 43:14
  learn, but there are certainly truths that are
• 43:18
  significantly more important and
• 43:21
  foundational than that. Yeah. Do you feel
• 43:25
  like you have enough questions where we could have a 3rd episode, or we're about
• 43:28
  to wrap this up right now? I don't have any more questions.
• 43:33
  I'm glad that you shielded the mic from hearing what you just said. I don't
• 43:36
  know why I did that. That was such a dumb thing to do. Such a
• 43:39
  dumb thing to do. I guess in my brain, it was a way of communicating
• 43:43
  to you. Secret. Secret. I am taking I am taking this offline.
• 43:48
  I I'm now taking this offline with you so that you know not
• 43:52
  because anything that happens here. Okay.
• 43:59
  And so there's a lot of things that you could we could we could say
• 44:02
  about it. I mean, there, I mean, there there is if you've read the Left
• 44:05
  Behind books, if you've been to any of these seminars, I mean, it goes
• 44:08
  into a significant amount of detail about who the antichrist
• 44:12
  is and where he comes from and the mark of the beast and the significance
• 44:16
  of the 144,000 witnesses. And I have lots
• 44:20
  of information and data in my head about that that some people find
• 44:23
  interesting and some people don't. I'm getting the impression from the look on your
• 44:27
  face that it is
• 44:31
  I'm probably an Amel in you. Yeah. No. You're probably
• 44:35
  eschatological agnostic. Yeah. I don't really I don't really don't care enough
• 44:39
  to think about it too much. Right? And so, I mean, like, in a different
• 44:42
  and so, like, we did at at at summer seminar was I just kinda spent
• 44:46
  some time. I took some questions. I kinda went into some of those details to
• 44:49
  kind of people who have some anxiety or fear about it. But, you
• 44:53
  know, it is not important enough to me to
• 44:57
  be like, Abigail, we need to keep talking about this until because you guys
• 45:00
  really need to understand when it says east.
• 45:05
  Right. It's talking about east of Israel, which we used in the
• 45:08
  eighties, we thought was Russia. But, you know, it's even
• 45:12
  well, because those those were clearly the villains. If there was ever going to
• 45:16
  be a villain Okay. Okay. During the Cold War, it was gonna be from
• 45:19
  Russia. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. So it all made sense. But you know what's this
• 45:23
  even further east of Israel than Russia?
• 45:28
  The United States. Oh, yeah. That's Also Tokyo. Also
• 45:32
  Tokyo. Right? I mean, so how far east do you have
• 45:35
  to go before? Actually, that's west. We think of ourselves as
• 45:39
  the west. Right. But that's because we we decided we were
• 45:43
  gonna Make the map this way. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, well,
• 45:46
  east of Israel could be anything. Right? And so there's some people like to
• 45:50
  speculate about that, and it's like I was like, that's why it was, oh,
• 45:54
  you know, where Obama's from? Like, oh, please stop.
• 45:58
  Hell, you know, Gorbachev or Krusheath or what I like, whatever
• 46:02
  whatever villain of the day is. Right? Anybody can be
• 46:06
  east of Israel. But, again, these are the kind of things that for some people
• 46:08
  are interesting to talk about. And so I don't want you
• 46:14
  us to think that I am avoiding talking about this. But I just wanna make
• 46:18
  sure that we've got a general understanding of it. But as always, if you've
• 46:21
  got questions about this and you're thinking, no, I
• 46:25
  was really hoping Abigail was gonna pepper him with nonstop
• 46:29
  Sure. Eschatology questions, you feel free to pepper
• 46:32
  us with nonstop eschatology questions, and we'll pick it up later.
• 46:36
  Info@thegrovechurch.org, and we would love to hear any questions you have about
• 46:39
  that. Or, honestly, really any theological issue that you have, you think would
• 46:43
  be interesting, important for us to talk about, we'd love to hear it. I'm always
• 46:47
  looking for ideas for other things to talk about. But I think I
• 46:51
  think we're done. I think that's it. Yeah. And so again, our our my greatest
• 46:55
  desire and hope is that you will as you encounter the book of
• 46:58
  Revelation or different views on eschatology that you would always
• 47:02
  walk away with hope and peace and a God who's got
• 47:06
  things under control and not anxiety about the future.
• 47:09
  Because sometimes people get real anxious that they're gonna
• 47:13
  accidentally get the mark of the beast, that you're gonna get tricked
• 47:16
  into rejecting Jesus and being condemned forever, or
• 47:20
  we need to we need to be actively working against that, but at the same
• 47:24
  time actively supporting Israel. And we just kind of have all of
• 47:28
  these kind of like that there are very strong political
• 47:33
  applications to this as if God needs our help
• 47:36
  Mhmm. In making this happen or that
• 47:40
  we're being called to kind of prevent some of these things. It's kind of
• 47:44
  weird. And as most things, I don't think there's a
• 47:47
  political application to this. I mean,
• 47:51
  this is gonna unfold
• 47:55
  exactly the way that God said it would. And our goal in this
• 47:58
  is not to vote differently. It is to trust God
• 48:02
  fully. Right. So thanks for being kind of the
• 48:06
  foil for this, kind of the bouncing off these ideas off of kinda great
• 48:10
  and great job as always, asking great questions and really glad that all of you
• 48:14
  joined us. And again, we would love to hear from you. Any ideas that you
• 48:17
  have, questions you have, we, the times I've gotten those, we've taken
• 48:21
  them all very seriously. And it has been the inspiration
• 48:24
  for podcast series in the past. So we would love as much of that as
• 48:28
  you wanna give. And as always, we would love to catch you on a Sunday
• 48:31
  morning, connect with you, help you in any way that we can. And as
• 48:35
  always, thanks again for joining us on the cultivate podcast.
• 48:42
  Thank you for listening to the cultivate podcast. Our hope is that you are taking
• 48:45
  steps to go deeper in your faith that you're asking big questions and you're
• 48:49
  looking for answers. We hope that we can be a resource for you
• 48:53
  through our podcast and any other way that we can help you. You can find
• 48:56
  all our episodes anywhere that you can find podcasts including YouTube. And,
• 49:00
  again, thank you so much for joining us.