Latest / A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast / Santa? Abortion and Christian Ethics? w/ Margaret Kamitsuka

Transcript

Santa? Abortion and Christian Ethics? w/ Margaret Kamitsuka · A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to a Matter of Faith, a Presby podcast, the podcast where we respond to your questions and comments on issues of faith, social justice, and church life.
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Don't be afraid to write in and ask your question, because if it matters to you, it matters to us, and it just might be a matter of faith,
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: Whether it be faith in God, faith in others, or faith in yourself.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: We are brought to you by the Presbyterian Peacemaking Program and Unbound, the interactive journal on Christian Social justice for the Presbyterian Church usa.
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: I am your host, Lee Cato,
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: And I'm your host Simon Dune.
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: Without further ado, let's dive into today's questions.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: Well, hello everyone and welcome again to a matter of Faith, a Presby podcast.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: I am joined as always by the delightful
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: Ah,
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: Lee Cato.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: It's always a delight to talk to you, Lee.
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: Not many people call me delightful Simon.
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: But I can be when I want to be, but
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: Well, they're missing out, are you?
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: I'm good.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: I, uh, I remember for last week I told everyone about the idea for snow shovel simulator.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: that you win, invent
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: .
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: I have not.
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: Oh.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: Uh, but I did have another learning experience today in the process of trying to shovel my driveway so I could get the car out.
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: Huh.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: So I had had to, uh, scrape the car yesterday, scrape the snow and ice off yesterday to order to drive back from the office to, to the house.
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: I woke up this morning, shoveled the driveway, and I was like, okay, I just gotta scrape the car and I can go.
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: I opened up the door and the scrap the scraper.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: also has a brush on it, and the brush, I guess still had some residual snow on it from the day before.
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: , and it got cold enough overnight that the brush had frozen to like the little rubber doormats that, or mats that you put along the floor of your car.
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: My God.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: So the scraper and brush were frozen to the floor of the car.
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: I was able to get it off eventually, but I was like, I really hope I don't break the scraper or the brush in the process
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: .
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: And I'm sure that to many folks who live in cold climates who do this all the time, they're like, wow, he's so inexperienced.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: They might even call me a nobe.
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: And I would just say to you, you're right,
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: .
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't have a clue.
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: I really wouldn't.
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: I just would not have a clue.
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: That is so not in, I don't have any of that in my brain to even do any of that.
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: So I'm sure it is a learning curve.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: Well, I didn't have it in my brain either, but you figure it out.
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: We have a Yeah.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: We have so much in our brains.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: I was just telling Simon that my brain, I think is just like, done.
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: I can't absorb any more information that certainly happened to you.
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: I'm sure it happens to a lot of people.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think also to, to be someone in the modern world, it's just to be, to be in a constant state of buffering, for lack of a better word, you know, the buffering symbol of Yes.
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: The, either the arrow or the little circle that's loading.
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: I'm buffering right now.
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: I'm buffering, I watch too much television, which is my downfall.
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: I am consumed by reality tv.
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: I'm consumed by trash tv and just like anything that's in trend, light Lotus Real Housewives, I just can't absorb anything else.
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: I don't know what it is.
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: And then you start kind of acting like them.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: It's weird.
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: I watched too much of it.
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: I've become a real housewife.
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: Oh no, Lee, you're starting to emulate the Real Housewives,
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: The real Housewives of the church.
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: What would that be?
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: My gosh,
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: That sounds dangerous.
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: But it wouldn't, we wouldn't, we don't wanna gender it.
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: We'll just put the real people of the church right now.
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: That would be good television.
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: So if you're listening and you have any input in reality television, you should do that because people would watch it
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: Or pay Lee to write you a script.
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm working on it.
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: I'm working on it.
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: So
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: Make the deal happen.
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: And speaking of making deals,
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah.
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: The biggest deal maker of all is guess who, wait a minute, what are we doing?
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: News?
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: .
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: I was trying to segue on talking about
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: The deal
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: And Brittany Griner released
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: Oh, got it, got it.
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: Sorry, I thought we were talking question.
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: Um, well, Santa is the biggest toy dealer in the world.
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's true.
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: And Santa is a big deal.
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: I got mixed up.
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: All right, people.
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: That's all good.
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: We're gonna talk about Britney Griner, which is a great thing.
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: So Britney Griner, um, her release was negotiated.
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: She is back in the US from Russia after serving, I believe it's a little over 300 days.
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: in a prison in Russia.
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: Uh, which is good to hear.
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: There has also been much talk in the news about, um, other US Americans folk who are stuck in Russia.
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: Um, particularly one that has been mentioned a lot is former Marine Paul Wellen, or Whelan, sorry, I'm not quite sure about the pronunciation.
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: And so there's just been a lot of questions about, well, why does this person get out and out this one?
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: And I understand those concerns, but there's also the fact that you don't always get to choose what the terms are when you're trying to negotiate.
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: Um, the, from what I read about the situation, uh, the Russians said, you know, we will take this person in exchange for Britney Griner, but they wanted, they want someone else, or they want two people in exchange for, for Paul.
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: And so, while our thoughts are obviously with Britney as she is now home and safe and traumatized and trying to get reoriented to mm-hmm.
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: , her new situation, our thoughts and prayers also remain with Paul as well as he remains in a Russian prison.
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: And I mean, all of'em.
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: But there's also the other part of that in that, you know, Britney Grinder is a black woman who is also.
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: And I do think that in many instances, you know, we always have to, to put a con, thank God that Britney is released, but, there's always a butt, but there's always someone, there are people still there and things like that.
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: And I just, I hope people realize that her embodiment and who she is, it was, it is, I know it's very dangerous for people to be there and to be held captive there, but for her, this, it was, it was a priority to get her out because of who she is and her embodiment.
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: And I hope people realize that too, and not all.
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: And, and I hope we don't always have to disclaim that in a way.
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: I think that's something that I've really struggled with in this, is that, you know, she was in grave, grave danger where she was at, and just because of who she is.
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: And so I hope people realize that too.
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: And that is not to discount anybody who is suffering right now, but it is also lifting it up and saying, you know, she is, she is embodying something that it's completely looked down upon and completely ostracized and oppressed in a specific context.
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: And so, yeah.
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: I just hope people realize that too, is we can do both.
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: And I think there's a time and a place, and some people are focusing on the other prisoners who served in the military and things like that.
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: And we've had that conversation before on the podcast.
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: It was one of the hardest conversations we've ever had about military complex and all those things.
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: And so I just, you know, I, I've had a lot of feelings about all that.
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: So I think that's important for people to realize too, as we are celebrating her release, is that let's celebrate it and hold it up and talk about it.
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: And, and yeah, we can also do the work to release others.
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: But like you were saying, Simon, it's different.
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: You can't really compare it.
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: The two, you know, it's like a not a right.
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: Well, this person gets out, then it's, it's like we're setting up a competition, right.
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: When that's what white supremacy wants us to do.
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean?
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, it's not a competition.
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: It's let's lift it up and try to change it.
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I am it.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: I can't imagine what it was like for, for her partner.
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: And yeah, it should have been done a long time ago, but
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: Should have.
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: Well, Ken, we are grateful for her release to continue to pray for those that are also still being held captive.
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, indeed.
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: And we're also grateful.
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: It's just, I mean, it's just a time of gratitude.
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: The respect for Marriage Act was also passed by the house, it was passed by the Senate passed by the House.
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: Andy actually signed the bill this Tuesday, which is awesome.
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: And in this act it does.
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: And here's what it does and does not do, and I'm reading from kind of something from a, b, c news, cuz we wanna get this clear.
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: What it does do is that if the Supreme Court were to ev ever, uh, overrule the ruling that says same sex, we can have same sex marriage and interracial marriage.
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: If it ever does that, the 2015 ruling and the 1967 ruling that kind of encompasses all that, if, if the, the Supreme Court ever overturns all that the states in which do same sex marriage and interracial marriage and all these things are then protected federally.
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: It is, what it doesn't do is said that every state is required to do this.
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: I just want to get that straight because I, I don't think it is as, um, revolutionary as we would say it would be.
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: But I do want to say that it is a step that federally it is protected under the law in some cases.
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: Cuz right now, um, it's not necessarily that case, but I do think it is a good step in the right direction though it could be better, um, because of the control that states may or may not have in it.
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: And so it does, uh, require the federal government and all states, uh, to recognize same sex and interracial marriage if they were legally performed in the past and are performed in the future in places where they are still legal, including other states.
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: If that makes sense.
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: So it is a good step and, and it does impact both of us.
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: So, yeah.
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: Well thank you for that clarification.
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: And we hope that helps people understand the significance of this and why it is a step.
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: It is not the, it is not the end of the work.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: that is to be done.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: But it is a step,
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: It's a process.
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: It is a process.
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: And uh, speaking of processes,
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: ,
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: We are all in the
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: Process.
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: It's the biggest process in the world,
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: We are in the process of celebrating the birth of Jesus and Christmas as we are in the, well, we're not, we're getting there.
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: We're in the advent season currently, I should say.
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: , we're in the process of doing the preparation for the arrival and birth of Jesus as we like to say.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: But it also means in other parts of Christian, particularly Christian Western tradition, preparing for the arrival of one Santa Claus.
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: Oh
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: Boy.
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: Maybe, maybe you also know him as Father Christmas, St.
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: Nick, St.
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: Nicholas.
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: So many names.
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: What is Pierre?
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: Noel?
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: Is that French?
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: I think so,
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: I learned that from the Santa Claus.
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: Remember when he goes and lists them.
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: So Yeah.
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: Tim Allen problematic but yeah.
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: .
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: And so our question for today that has been written in is what are your thoughts on Santa Claus?
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: I've got a lot of thoughts on Santa Claus.
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: I You got a lot of thoughts.
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: When I was, and I know for myself when I was little, I mean I got a call from Santa Claus on the phone once.
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: Oh wow.
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: That was cool.
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: It's a big deal.
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: I'll be honest, I still put out cookies because I like to, and I'll occasionally put out something for the reindeer too.
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: , whether it be a carrot or some leftover Chinese food, whatever I have in my fridge.
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: .
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: .
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: Like I don't know if, I don't know if the reindeer eat that, but we'll try some nuts.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: Nice.
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: And I still do it because I like the tradition, but I think also around Santa Claus is obviously this discussion around belief.
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: and seeing Christmas with the eyes of a child as we like to say.
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: And don't ruin things for kids because, and I close your ears children if you are listening, but there is nothing worse than having something that you really believed in.
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: Just kind of ruined.
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: It's not fun.
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: And when you're a kid, of course the biggest thing around Christmas time is the other kids telling you, oh well Santa Claus isn't real.
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: And you're like, yes he is.
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: Nobody's not.
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: It's so-and-so and so and so.
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: And then you're like, no, I don't believe that.
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: And eventually everyone does grow up.
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: But that's a part of the childhood experience around Christmas as well.
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: Just like every Santa movie, he's always based off of how much you believe all these things.
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: And my nephews are getting to the age where they're either figuring it out.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: Well I think they're figuring it out, especially the oldest one.
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: And so it is interesting because it's kind of a marker of growing up as if you don't believe in Santa Claus.
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: But it is just a weird concept.
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: , and we've talked about it before on the podcast, whenever we kind of debuted the Spanish podcast, we talked about the different traditions in which, you know, in many Latin American countries and in the Caribbean, Santa Claus really a thing.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: And it was introduced and it was kind of creepy.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: You know, like, I mean if you think about it, it's creepy.
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: Somebody coming in your house and you don't know it and like leaving you stuff.
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: And when you think about it, it's kind of weird.
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: But it's also, I mean, there's also a racial dynamic too because Santa Claus is always in, in commercial sense, is always seen as this white guy, um, with red cheeks and like white beard and all those things.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: Even though that's changing a little bit when it comes to different racial representations of what Santa Claus may look like.
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: And so that's kind of problematic.
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: But I do think it does kind of create like a sense of magic within the season.
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: And I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: Some people think Santa Claus and things are way too commercial, but I think it's really fun in some cases.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: Um, so I don't really know, I don't know if I should be feel guilty about like, kind of buying in, cuz it's very commercial too.
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: I mean, Santa Claus is a commercialization of Christmas really.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: But we all kind of play into it in some ways unless you're just so against it, that's just not, you just completely cut it.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: But in a way I kind of like the idea of magic and all these different things associated with the Christmas season.
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: You know, I kind of like it.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I do too.
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: I've always found it, spiritual is maybe the wrong word for it, but kind of spiritual
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: Kinda
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: In a, in a very loose sense.
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: And there's just something about that magic that really feels special.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: In the right.
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: Even if in like if it's done in the right way.
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: Even if logically I am like there is no way a heavy set man could come down my chimney and out my fireplace because the fireplace is gated in locks.
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: And put some presents out there and then go back up.
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: But I still would like to believe that it could happen.
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: And but isn't that like, and, and I'm gonna preface this.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: I am not comparing believing in Santa Claus to believing in Jesus.
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: Or having or anything like that.
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: I'm really not.
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: But what I'm saying is, isn't that what belief is?
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: You know, like logically, scientifically, some of the things in which we learn or heard in traditions are not necessarily possible if you think in that mindset.
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: But I do think in some ways it's like, why not think about it in some cases like that?
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think it, I think it would be cool to even like, I don't know, continue the story about Santa Claus but see it in a different way.
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: Reimagine it in different ways.
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: Like I do think Hollywood and movies have really narrowed in what that magic looks like specifically when it comes to there's all Santa Claus is always white.
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: And I think that there is ways in which you could expand what that looks like.
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: And to me that's kind of a spiritual thing too.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: It's like take take something that is very much all about kind of this magic thing and then apply to what we're thinking about when we talk about justice and equality and equity.
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: I don't know what the story of Santa Claus may look like.
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: What if Santa Claus was gay or?
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: And there have been times where the gender of Santa Claus has been changed in Hollywood and like obviously the ethnicity of Santa Claus is, should be changed and what that might look like.
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: Or expand the traditions too.
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: Because in different countries and different traditions, there's different things that come along with it other than biblical narratives and stories.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: Some of those things are also problematic.
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: And so what does that look like for us to not just simply say get rid of it all because it's not realistic and it's not real and we're just lying to people.
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: I don't think it's lying.
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: I think it's saying how about we open up our minds a little bit more.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely.
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: And if folks wanna check it out, last year we did have a conversation with Santa Claus on the podcast.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: Oh we did?
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we did the Santa the Santa Claus.
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: The Santa Clause Claus with Yeah.
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: With Santa.
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: So if you wanna check out that conversation, you can go back and listen to that episode from last December mm-hmm.
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: .
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: Because in that conversation, Santa offered a lot of wisdom for both people, young and old.
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: about the power and the beauty and the magic of Christmas and of belief.
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, indeed.
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: And we wanted to have, you know, we wanted to have a, to respond to this question cuz this is kind of a more lighthearted question.
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: And we are going to say that the episodes that are coming out for Christmas season or the advent season, we are tackling, uh, with our guests, we are tackling some things that are kind of not easy to talk about.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: And and specifically in this, in the next few episodes, Margaret, that you're gonna hear from in a little bit, we're gonna be talking about abortion and reproductive rights and reproductive justice and in some ways how that is connected to this season.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: And you're gonna hear in the, in the future from people talking about trauma, from people talking about, uh, reproductive justice again.
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: And so you may hear us talk a little bit lighter in some of the conversations we have with each other, but, but yeah, we wanted to just give you that.
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: And we also wanted to give you a warning that with Margaret, who is our guest this week, we are talking about abortion.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: We are talking about miscarriages.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: And so if that is something that is triggering for you, we wanted to mention that before you, before you continue to listen because it is a, a hard conversation for some people to have.
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: Um, so we did wanna mention that as well.
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: And with, uh, further ado, let's get to that conversation with Margaret.
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: Well, we are so grateful to be joined today by a very special guest.
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: Joining us is Margaret come Suka, who is Professor Emeritus of Religion at Oberlin College.
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: Margaret, thank you so much for being with us.
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: Thank you.
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: Glad to be
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: Here.
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Margaret, it's good to see you and it's good to meet you.
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: And we have a question that we would love for you to respond to sent in.
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: And the question reads, within the year we have seen a fundamental shift in reproductive rights, especially as it pertains to abortion.
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: Faith is the driving force in many of these discussions and actions.
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: What does a pro-choice Christian stance look like?
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: And before we respond, we also wanna say that Margaret is the author of abortion in the Christian tradition, a pro-choice theological ethic.
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: And so we may be referencing the book a little bit, but Margaret, what would you respond with with that question?
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: Yes, thank you.
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: It's a great question.
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: So first, uh, I wanna clarify that the terms pro-life and pro-choice are modern political terms.
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: So there actually is no pro-life or pro-choice Christian belief.
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: However, there are clusters of Christian beliefs that support a political pro-choice stance.
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: And, and I think I would argue even more strongly that an Orthodox Christian perspective points more strongly toward a pro-choice stance than what you would find in any pro-life platform today.
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: So, um, maybe I can just unpack that a little bit about what I mean by an Orthodox Christian perspective.
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: Basically what I'm, what I mean by that is that it's a biblically based and doctrinally based position and also informed by the historical Christian tradition.
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: And that means the good, the bad, and the ugly of what the church has been over all its centuries.
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: So that's, that's where an Orthodox Christian perspective is, is is rooted.
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: So maybe it might be good for me to start talking about the Bible, because I think that's pretty central for most Christians.
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: We know that the New Testament arose out of Jesus' life and, uh, teachings and the, the life and teachings of the apostles, which means that Christianity arose out of Judaism.
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: So the New Testament says nothing about abortion, but if we try to discern what Jesus or Paul might have thought about that, we have to turn to Hebrew Bible, which both Jesus and Paul knew very well.
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: So based on Hebrew Bible and the Jewish rabbinical teachings of those times, we can conclude that Jews never viewed fetal life as equivalent to a born person.
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: Um, what we think of today is abortion is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible, but there is one specific passage that addresses forced miscarriage.
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: And this is re a really important one to look at.
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: This is found in Exodus 21 versus 22 to 25, and it's a legal passage that speaks about the penalties for causing a woman to have a miscarriage.
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: So let me just, in case you don't have your Bibles open in front of you, I'll just read it, uh, the, the, the two sentences very quickly.
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: When people who are fighting injure a pregnant woman so that there is a miscarriage and yet no further harm follows, the one responsible shall be fined what the woman's husband demands paying as much as the judge's determine if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life.
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: I, for I, okay.
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: So that's the closest we come in, uh, in our scriptures to anything related to a pregnancy ending of pregnancy loss.
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: So we don't know how this law was ever applied in ancient Israel, but we have a very clear sense of how Jews in the Greco Roman period interpreted it.
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: Their views on unborn life was informed by the best science of their day, which meant thinkers like Hippocrates.
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: So the consensus of medical opinion from the time of Hippocrates on was that unformed, embryonic matter developed into an increasingly formed fetal person.
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: And this unformed formed viewpoint was the basis for Jewish ethical views on pregnancy, miscarriage, and abortion.
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: So the consensus of the learned Jewish opinions of that time was that the loss of an unformed fetus would only incur a fine rather than the penalty of homicide.
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: The charge of homicide would only apply if the pregnant woman died as well as a result of that, that altercation.
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: So the early church accepted this Jewish ethical viewpoint and largely continued to endorse it in subsequent centuries.
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: So what I'm saying here is that this legal ruling in the Exodus passage is not a pro-choice or a pro-life position.
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: However, what it does is it informs how the ancient Jews and the early church thought about unborn life.
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: And there's nothing in the New Testament that indicates that Jesus or Paul or any other New Testament writer, Jew or Gentile thought otherwise.
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: Thank you for giving that and that overview and that perspective.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever actually heard anyone go that deep into a scriptural passage and be like, actually this is what it actually says, and this is the context for which this passage exists to help us understand it.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: .
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: And, um, I might be jumping ahead in the conversation cuz I think I do want to hear more from you about some other passages and how they relate to, to our understandings today.
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: Um, something that I always find interesting about this debate is, you know, we talk about the word life is thrown around a lot in it, particularly with regard to the fetus.
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: And is the fetus a person?
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: Is it a human?
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: Is it a life?
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: And at one point, is it, or isn't it classified that way?
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: And another part of wider pro-choice, pro-life debates also focus on the person carrying the child.
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: Um, o often the mother, but I'm gonna say anyone who is carrying the child for to be inclusive.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: And we don't always talk about the life of, of that person.
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: It sometimes the way it's described, it sounds like the life, once there's another life involved, the life of the person carrying the child almost is not, it doesn't, don't wanna say it doesn't matter, but it's, it is not, uh, taking priority mm-hmm.
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: and then let alone what happens when that when that child is born, whatever it is, um, the ways that that child is supported by our society or not to be able to thrive.
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: And so I know that that's sort of, I might be jumping ahead in the conversation, but it's interesting, I I appreciate where you started because I'm thinking about how all of that relates to some of those things that, that I mentioned there.
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you have a, have somebody you'd like to, to say to that or, or we can keep going with biblical passages as well.
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, what you're asking about really does relate to, um, how, how people use biblical passages to support their position.
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: So, and I think it's important to look at those, the, the passages that you do find in the Bible that talk about unborn life.
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: And there are quite a, a, a few of them, um, they're, they're really some of the most beautiful passages and they're very poetic in the psalms, in, uh, Jeremiah and Job and, and so on.
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: So maybe we could start by looking at that and to see how it is that people have used these verses to discern a pro-life or a pro-choice stance.
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: In other words, to go from scripture to politics, which is always complicated.
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: So let's look at a classic, uh, verse that pro-life thinkers point to.
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: And that would be Jeremiah one five, very simple.
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: It's at the, the very beginning of the book of Jeremiah, where, where, uh, he's being called by God.
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: And the verse goes, before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, and before you were born, I consecrated you.
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: Okay?
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: So this is the calling of God speaking to Jeremiah and saying this about his unborn life.
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: Now this is a classic verse used in, uh, pro-life, um, literature that is taken to prove that God calls all fetuses from the womb and sees them as concentrated and is sacred.
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: Well, it's important to sort of pause here and look at how were these verses actually interpreted at the time.
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: So we know that rabbinic commentators on these ancient verses did not read them as applying to all fetuses.
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: These verses in Jeremiah or Salm and so on were taken to apply to a few very special chosen leaders in prophets like Jeremiah or King David.
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: And, uh, these were, these people were certainly considered to have been chosen and consecrated before birth by God.
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: But there's no evidence that Jesus or Paul or any other, um, early church leaders interpreted those passages like Jeremiah one as evidence that every fetus should be thought of as sacred or as having an inviolable right to life.
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: So indeed, you can even look at, um, that the ex of Jesus, of some significant Christian thinkers, uh, throughout history, who expressly reject the notion that those verses should be applied to all fetuses.
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: So if we look in the writings of the eminent medieval theologian, uh, Thomas Aquinas, he explicitly instructs people, not that those verses should not be applied to every being in the womb.
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: So this is what Thomas Aquinas says about Jeremiah one, so I'll I'll quote him here, for such privileges of grace are bestowed on some, and it is not possible to assign a reason for God's judgments, for instance, why God bestows such a grace upon one and not on another.
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: So what Thomas Aquinas is saying here is that, yes, this was a special grace that was bestowed upon the, the, uh, uh, Jeremiah or also the other, uh, John the Baptist or, or King David, um, in the womb.
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: But those are special designated beings in the womb, and they, we cannot assume that they should apply to all fetuses.
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: So this is an explicit rejection of the way in which this verse has been used.
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: This or other similar verses have been used in some pro-life writings.
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: So what we can, what we can conclude from this theologically is that if God wishes to consecrate a fetus in the womb, that is God's prerogative.
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: But Christians are warned against speaking for God on this matter.
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: So that's basically what a doctrine of providence is all about.
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: The believer can hope for a poli a particular outcome, but is warned not to announce that they know inductively what God's will is.
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: So this is, this is, uh, a a way of thinking about what's a proper way to interpret these kinds of verses.
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: And we have to think about them in terms of an overarching sense of what are we saying about God, about God's grace, about God's providence, and that it would be inaccurate to take that verse as speaking for that God is speaking about all, uh, unborn beings in all times and places the church never interpreted in that way.
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: So that would be one way to, to, uh, you know, to think about another biblical matters and how we, how people use the Bible in order to support either a pro-choice or, um, a pro-life position.
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: I'm wondering whether it might be helpful to just talk a little bit about what abortion may be meant in the ancient world and how we can then understand the writings of not just scripture, but of early church leaders who wrote about abortion.
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: Because this is the other sort of platform that pro-life rioters turned to is that you can find quotes from eminent church leaders and the, the, the church fathers and the patristic writers condemning abortion.
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: And that's taken to be an instruction about how we should view abortion today.
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: But things are a little bit more complicated than that.
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: So, um, so maybe I can talk a little bit about abortion in the ancient world and how the early church was really thinking about this.
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that'd be great.
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: So basically there were only abortion in the early world.
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: In the early church in, in the ancient world was alike, but very different from what, what it is today.
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: There were really only three ways to stop a pregnancy in the ancient world.
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: There was the use of abort aphasian plants and herbs, which were not very reliable and potentially also very toxic to the mother violence.
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: So, for example, one could beat a pregnant woman until she miscarried.
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: And this is what the Exodus passage was talking about.
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: And it was in the under Roman law, legal to beat one's wife or by medical procedure, um, in the, uh, in the process of birthing.
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: And this was called an embryo autotomy.
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: Now, this procedure was known and used by physicians in the ancient world in the particular event when a fetus would be stuck in the birth canal.
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: So unless something is done, both the mother and the baby will die.
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: In the developed world today, we have a way of dealing with this problem, which of course still happens.
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: These sorts of obstructed births still happen there.
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: We have access to emergency C-sections.
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: All right?
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: And this does happen a lot in c-sections, save lives when something goes wrong with a vaginal birth.
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: But in the ancient world, and frankly even today in poor countries or in isolated areas where there's no access to healthcare and embryo, otomy is the only way to prevent the mother to prevent the mother's death during birth.
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: And this is the procedure where a fetus is dismembered and removed vaginally through the birth canal.
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: So the early church knew of this procedure, uh, physicians were able to accom to do this procedure.
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: Now, whether there would be complications afterwards, such as, uh, sepsis or other other problems that, I'm not saying that it would've all worked out well, but there, but trained physicians in the ancient world wrote extensively in their gynecological manuals about how to do this procedure in order to save the mother's life.
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: And we know that the early church thinkers knew about these medical procedures.
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: Tullian who was a second century church leader, wrote about it quite extensively.
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: Augustine, uh, Bishop Augustine of Hippo also mentions it, and both men agree that this was a tragic event, turn of events, but also a medical necessity, uh, because the mother's life is always worth saving.
• 38:09
  Speaker 3: So it's important to think about that sort of medical history before you look at then the statements that you find that early church leaders make condemning abortion.
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: And you can find these statements.
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: They're easy to, they're easy to find.
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: Pro-life writers have gathered all of these statements.
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: They're not a lot of them, but they're, they're from significant thinkers.
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: They can be found, which condemn abortion and, uh, talk about it as a sin and sometimes even use the word homicide to relate to it.
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: But what the early church, we have to be careful to understand that what the early church was saying about these kind of statements is not necessarily based on the claim that you find in pro-life writings today.
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: It's not based on the claim of fetal personhood from conception.
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: As we talked about before, the notion that a person begins at conception would've been foreign to, uh, early church thinkers, given that they basically operated on this assumption that life was unformed until a particular period of time.
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: When it then, when, when person who happened, often that was as associated with the process of insolvement.
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: So early church condemnations of abortion were actually more focused on trying to condemn the illicit sex that caused the unwanted pregnancy that then someone is trying to cover up by an abortion.
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: So illicit sex in the early church was basically sex outside of marriage, adultery, or non procreated sex within marriage.
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: Any of those were taboo.
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: And any kind of, uh, attempt at abortion in order to prevent a pregnancy, uh, from continuing, uh, those who were all considered to be sinful, not only because it was ending a life in the womb, but because it was trying to cover up an act of illicit sex.
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: So church leaders obviously knew that unwanted and dangerous pregnancies happened.
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: This was no, no, uh, um, secret to them.
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: But what's interesting to look at is the bulk of the church's actions regarding abortion or attempted abortion, because it was not often successful.
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: The church's actions until the modern period were basically focused on a principle of leniency regarding the challenges of marriage and family life.
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: So abortion was always considered a sin or related to sinful actions and attitudes, but any number of extenuating circumstances were taken into consideration by the church.
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: So, for example, extreme poverty.
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: If a, if a woman fell pregnant and she was extremely poor and she attempted an abortion, her poverty could be an extenuating circumstance that the church would take into account if the woman or or a girl had a fear of dying in childbirth.
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: That was also taken into account rape was also a reason why the, the abortion could be considered as a much lesser sin.
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: So for most of church history, punishment for abortion was considered a private matter between the woman and the priest.
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: It was resolved within the confessional, and the punishment was a set of penances that one, one did over a certain period of time, depending on the severity of what the abortion was considered.
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: And the punishment for say a poor woman or someone who had, uh, uh, gotten pregnant from rape would be much lower, uh, than than, uh, than other abortions.
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: So the abor, the notion that abortion should be outlawed or punished in a secular or a civil court was a much later modern development in the Western world.
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: And there is no theological or biblical basis for doing that.
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: So even now, thinking about the Presbyterian tradition, so even if you look at John Calvin's Geneva in the 16th century where church and state were merged for a period of time, abortion was not rigorously prosecuted, and it was often o openly overlooked.
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: So if you looked at the documentation of trials happening in the city of Geneva at the time, abortion is mentioned, but it was not really severely prosecuted or pursued.
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: So even Calvin, who for example, did strongly believe that insolvement happened at conception, even Calvin did not advocate punishing women or midwives for abortion or attempted abortion.
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: Calvin did not believe that civil penalties were the proper way to promote sexual ethics among the citizens ci citizenry of the, of that city.
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: So I think that's kind of some important historical background that, that informs then, um, how it is that we should move from say, scriptural statements and um, statements of church leaders to then a political platform.
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: And there's, there's clearly here a, a tendency for the church to try and avoid bringing issues of sin and having them adjudicated within, uh, legislative or courtroom settings.
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: So that, that's a, that's a strong historical precedent that should be looked at.
• 43:43
  Speaker 3: Um, when you're thinking about issues of, um, pro-life, pro, pro-choice and how one can pursue those sorts of, um, ethics that maybe they're more appropriately talked about from the pulpit then from, uh, the the
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: Courtroom.
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: And I was gonna, just in seeing what is kind of going on right now in which there is, there is a, well, there has been a movement, but then that movement has continued to gain momentum within a sense that is kind of what you're talking about in a sense that what John Calvin did was in some way create a theocracy, which is the co the, the merger of someone's of a religious belief within the civil society and within law and things like that.
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: And so specifically here in the us.
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: And so we're seeing more and more people want to do that in the political realm that specifically are Christian, where, which we are in a country that is a multitude of different religions.
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: And so that's the conversation within and of itself.
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: But I do wonder, cuz you talked a little bit about in the book h how we are to move forward and what would then be kind of the way in which we posture ourselves as Christians who want to, to, to, to walk alongside people who, who, who are in that discernment and who are making a choice for their own bodies and who can have kids who, who ha who can birth.
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: How are we to move forward in this conversation along with the great information you've been giving us?
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: Cuz I'll go ahead and tell you, there are many things you just said that I didn't have a clue and, and I think a lot of our listeners would not have a clue either.
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: So I think that's so helpful.
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: I think people think people who have argued this for years may not know a lot what you just said.
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: And so I appreciate that so much in this conversation.
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: But I also would love to know your response to how then are we to move forward as people of fate in that posture that, that we are to walk alongside people who are discerning and making this choice and have autonomy of their bodies.
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: How are we to move forward and what would you say to that?
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's, that's of course the million dollar question.
• 46:04
  Speaker 3: Um, so I really like the way you put it about, uh, walking alongside.
• 46:09
  Speaker 3: I think that's a helpful way to think about it.
• 46:11
  Speaker 3: That we really have to take seriously, that God speaks to each, uh, each person's heart.
• 46:18
  Speaker 3: I mean, if we do believe in the power of the Holy Spirit, uh, which Christians claim to believe that the, that the spirit does, uh, enlighten us and, um, does help people to discern what their path in life should be.
• 46:34
  Speaker 3: So, um, if we're starting from that as a position, rather than starting from a position of distrust, in other words, that some, I mean, and, and there's a long history in the church of simply assuming that women are to be distrusted because they are daughters of Eve.
• 46:51
  Speaker 3: So if we can agree that that's now off the table that we've sort of dispensed with that sort of old patriarchal way of thinking about women, then we can start thinking more in terms of, of acts, you know, and the, and Pentecost and that the, the Holy Spirit came upon all people, men and women, slave and free, you know, all, all different people equally.
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: So if that's the starting point of the premise, then we can talk about what walking alongside might mean.
• 47:21
  Speaker 3: And, uh, part of it is, is to start with the assumption that we don't actually know what should be the answer in for every unwanted or, or dangerous pregnancy.
• 47:37
  Speaker 3: There isn't a single answer to that.
• 47:41
  Speaker 3: All right?
• 47:41
  Speaker 3: So it's, this is a decision that has to be made, uh, in, in each context.
• 47:47
  Speaker 3: What we do know are some principles though that can help.
• 47:51
  Speaker 3: Um, we, as I mentioned, the Bible says nothing about abortion, but it tends toward considering the woman's life and health as having more importance than unborn life.
• 48:03
  Speaker 3: So that's one thing to keep in mind.
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: Does that mean that that decides what should happen in every situation?
• 48:10
  Speaker 3: Not necessarily, but it's important to keep that in mind.
• 48:14
  Speaker 3: We know that the church knew about there were needs for, uh, for ending a pregnancy, and the church was mostly lenient toward women who were stuck in an impossible situation.
• 48:26
  Speaker 3: There is little evidence that the church revered unborn beings.
• 48:30
  Speaker 3: Now, this is both, uh, helpful and unhelpful because the, the shadow side of the church's lack of reverence for unborn beings.
• 48:40
  Speaker 3: And then when I see that it lacked reverence from unborn beings, meaning when, when, um, a miscarriage happened, church, the church did not allow those beings to be buried, um, have Christian funeral.
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: So I mean, all those miscarriage miscarriages of wanted babies that maybe the parents would've liked to have had a, a, a burial in consecrated church grounds, they were not allowed.
• 49:04
  Speaker 3: So this is, this is a double edged thing.
• 49:07
  Speaker 3: So the lack of church's reverence from unborn beings, I don't take that as necessarily a support of a pro-choice position.
• 49:15
  Speaker 3: I take that as a sad evidence of the church not valuing what pregnancy means to many people.
• 49:26
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 49:26
  Speaker 3: So there's ambiguity there, right?
• 49:30
  Speaker 3: But we do know that if we look at just Jesus's in interactions with people, Jesus taught that children were important.
• 49:43
  Speaker 3: So children's welfare should not be neglected if children are born, they, they deserve society coming alongside and helping that they will not be neglected in any way.
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: We also know that Jesus respected women's opinions.
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: He did not order them around even when he disagreed with their sexual ethics.
• 50:02
  Speaker 3: And I think the key story here is John four, and that's the example of Jesus' encounter with the woman at the well.
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: He did not agree with her sexual ethics, any, they were very, very upfront about talking about it.
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: It's an extraordinary passage.
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: It's one of the longest recorded conversations that Jesus has with another person.
• 50:24
  Speaker 3: It is the longest recorded conversation that Jesus ever had.
• 50:28
  Speaker 3: So Jesus respected her opinion.
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: They had a theological conversation.
• 50:33
  Speaker 3: He respected her opinion.
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: He did not tell her what to do, uh, in her, in her, uh, sexual life, but they talked.
• 50:43
  Speaker 3: And if you want an example for what the church could do, that would be the verse I would go, that would be the story I would go to is read John four, uh, and understand how there was incredible restraint on Jesus' part about not telling her what she should do with her life, but simply just talking and, and and being there.
• 51:08
  Speaker 3: Uh, so that, that would be the, the the sort of, um, a biblical example that could be helpful for Christians to come together and, and read together and talk about what does this mean?
• 51:20
  Speaker 3: You know, how is it, how are we, how can we come alongside women in the way that Jesus came alongside this woman at the well in, in in John four?
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: Um, I think that would go a long way toward, um, helping removing the stigma that is attached to reproductive, women's reproductive decision making or reproductive decision making of anyone who's pregnant.
• 51:43
  Speaker 3: It would do a lot to remove that stigma and would open up the conversation to think about the meaningfulness of pregnancy, but also the importance of, uh, allowing, uh, people to use their, their, um, spirit led moral consciences.
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: I love that.
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: The idea that maybe where we should start is with the conversation.
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: It is with engaging with the people who have to deal with the reality of pregnancy and to, to different and to whom pregnancy means different things and what they wanna do with not only with your bodies, but also with their pregnancy and, and with their lives moving forward.
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: is so important.
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: Um, and I also appreciated that you started out by saying, okay, so we're gonna take the sort of very stereotypical patriarchal stance and sort of perspective, and we're gonna say, okay, we're gonna say we're not, we're not in that era anymore, that this is off the table.
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: And I, and I think that unfortunately for some, in some areas that really is still on the table.
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: We just don't talk about it enough.
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: And then that, that colors or informs decisions and perspectives when we start having conversations around reproductive issues.
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: And so I appreciate you giving us that very clear context from the beginning.
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: Cuz I think that also helps people think about, okay, what context am I operating out of or are in this situation?
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: What seems to be going on?
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: Because it, it is different for different people.
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: And I'm so grateful to you for, for coming on the podcast to talk with us about this.
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: I am also curious in the course of writing your book, and also maybe in some of your, uh, classes that, that you taught while a professor, you've laid out the different ways that people can sort of reach, um, pro-choice or pro-life, uh, conclusions or perspectives and sort of the, the, the biblical basis for, for both, but also the fact that it's really not so clear.
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: It really is ambiguous and it is contextual.
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: And when engaging with particularly students who are in a time where they're trying to starting to get their lives together a little bit, some of them are really excited about the idea of having kids one day in their life.
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: And some of'em are probably like, I don't ever wanna be a parent, which is also okay, I'm curious what it was like trying to evaluate, I guess, the responses of your students because it is also a class mm-hmm.
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: .
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: And so classes have passed and fail, which is not necessarily true in the real world.
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: So I'm curious how you engage with them around this kind of a topic without also trying to tell them, this is what the answer is, or this is really what you should think about this particular issue.
• 54:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so, so teaching about this is really, really fun.
• 54:38
  Speaker 3: Um, and important also.
• 54:40
  Speaker 3: And the thing that I noticed the most in teaching, uh, about these issues, and I've taught a number of different, uh, courses that, that have, um, that deal with the abortion issue, is that students usually come into this class thinking that they have a, a position and it's usually pretty stereotypical, they're kind of locked into that position because to question it would, would be problematic for them.
• 55:12
  Speaker 3: So those who are, who come into the class with a pro-life position feel uneasy questioning that because then they're gonna open the door to, in their view, babies being killed.
• 55:24
  Speaker 3: Or someone who is a pro-choice position is locked into that and they're unwilling to, to look at it critically because they think that then, you know, women are gonna end up in jail after having an abortion.
• 55:37
  Speaker 3: And it's not that those fears are not have, there is some foundation for both of those fears, but in a class like this, what my objective has always been is to get people to think more deeply about what are the, what are the, um, assumptions that you have that's locking you into that position and, um, are you willing to entertain the possibility that there are other ways to think about this outside of these sort of stereotypical pro-life, pro-choice binaries?
• 56:11
  Speaker 3: And usually what it turns out, ha what what I found happened, and this to me would be an a paper, if you wanna look at it this way, is that someone who's fir who has a firmly pro-choice position writes a paper and said, you know, I never really thought of the fact that just calling a fetus a clump of cells is hurtful to someone who's had a miscarriage.
• 56:39
  Speaker 3: I never thought about that, that my pro-choice position could actually be hurtful in the event of a miscarriage of a wanted pregnancy.
• 56:51
  Speaker 3: Now that realization that, I'm not saying that the person then is no, you know, changed their pro-choice political stance, but the fact that they entertained and looked at the, the, that that, that there's a broader issue here, um, about than just this narrow political issue.
• 57:09
  Speaker 3: There are complicated lives and, and pregnancies is itself a complicated interaction, right?
• 57:18
  Speaker 3: So that, that's what, that's what I always endeavored to do in my classes, is to get people to think about the broader situation.
• 57:27
  Speaker 3: And on the pro-life side, I tried to get students to think about to what extent does saving babies, and if that's their discourse, that's their discourse, if, to what extent does saving babies allow you to then force a woman to go through a pregnancy?
• 57:48
  Speaker 3: Because isn't that what happened in slavery?
• 57:51
  Speaker 3: Women were impregnated in order to birth babies who could then be more slaves for the, for the, you know, on the plantation.
• 57:59
  Speaker 3: And that's something that, you know, you, if you ask'em from pro-life position, nobody wants to force a woman to have to get pregnant and have a baby.
• 58:11
  Speaker 3: N no, not a single pro-life person I've ever talked to says, oh yeah, that's what we want.
• 58:16
  Speaker 3: But it's en it's the ability to entertain the fact that that reality causes you then to question this narrow pro-life stance.
• 58:25
  Speaker 3: And if a, a student were to write about that, they hadn't thought about it in that way, that to me would be an a paper as well.
• 58:32
  Speaker 3: It's the ability to self be self-critical in or in, in light of the broader complicated nature of sexuality, pregnancy, birthing, child raising, all of those complicated things that that would be what I would hope would be the outcome of any kind of conversation about any of these sorts of things.
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: And, and it's interesting and you know, this episode, I mean this advent right now that we're talking about all this, and this episode will come out during Advent and it comes out right before Christmas.
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: And it is a Christian narrative that is kind of centered around birth.
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: It is a narrative that is centered around the complexities, even within that story of the birth of Jesus, where an angel comes and says, you're gonna gonna have a baby.
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: I don't know if Mary had the choice.
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: I'm not, I don't, I don't know about all that, but I, but I do think this is an important conversation to have right now because it really does put into perspective, and it adds specifically with the historical stuff that you were talking about when it comes to Roman law and when it comes to scripture, it adds a whole nother layer to this narrative that we all as Christians kind of gather around during this time of the year.
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: And it's one of the reasons why we wanted to have this conversation during this time of the year because it puts a whole different perspective on birth and, and all the complexities that come along with it because it does add a whole nother layer as a, as Christians to where we come together and say, oh, this is the birth of Christ and Mary was pregnant, and there's all these images that we have.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: And so as we're having these conversations right now, I have a whole, I have, I mean, I kind of had the perspective, but I have a whole nother layer added on to this as we are approaching the birth of Jesus.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: And I just wanted to mention that because it is, we are in that season right now, and it's, it it is very poignant for me right now as you're talking about it too.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: It, it just adds a whole nother dynamic to the conversation.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's, that's lovely.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 3: Um, I, I think it's especially the, the, um, the, the story of Jesus's birth, uh, that's, that's to to me, causes us to think about what we're, what, what we're claiming if, if it, if Mary did not have an ability to consent.
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 3: And I think that that Luke's, um, annunciation, uh, narrative can be read the fact that even though it wasn't, you know, big old angel who was announcing this to her, she still had the option of saying, let it be unto me.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 3: We have Mary's voice.
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 3: This is extraordinary.
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 3: So it wasn't just that she, it was announced that now you're pregnant and you're having this baby.
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 3: She was allowed to have voice in, in that in the matter.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 3: Now whether she actually understood what all the implications of what she was signing on for, that's that we don't know, but we know that she was allowed to have voice.
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 3: And that one statement of Mary's at the center of the of, of the birth narrative is so significant, um, that I think it causes everyone to, to, to think about that that consent is key to understanding the nature of God's love.
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 3: God does not force anyone to, to love to self-sacrifice.
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 3: God did not.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 3: You could say that God didn't even force Jesus to, to continue all the way to the cross, that this was Jesus' decision to continue, right?
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 3: That's what the Garden of Emini is all about.
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 3: So if we start with the premise of a loving God, a loving God does not force women to have children that they don't feel they can handle.
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 3: And Mary seems, at least my reading, and I've never heard even a pro-life person contradict this.
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 3: Even Mary was given the opportunity to, to consent.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: Well, I will say that we are so appreciative as Simon and I who are male identifying and who will never have this experience, but are, are challenging the people out there who may identify as male and who will never be able, who, who are not birthing folk as, as we say now, to, to continue to educate yourself and to continue to also have conversations and to walk alongside people and to further understand this.
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: Because if we look at the political sphere right now, it is men who are making decisions for people who are, have the ability to have, who, who, who have the ability to birth.
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: And I think we all should be educating ourselves more.
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: And, and thank you so much Margaret, for being on the podcast with us.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: And we are gonna make sure all the links to your book is put in our show notes, uh, so people can go and get it.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: It is called Abortion and the Christian Tradition, A Pro-Choice Theological Ethic.
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: And Margaret, we are so grateful that you were with us today.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: It was, it's, it's been a pleasure.
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 3: It's been a pleasure for me too.
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 3: Thank you so much.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: This has been the Matter of Faith Podcast, brought to you by the Presbyterian Peacemaking Program, an unbound.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: If you would like to submit a question for discussion, you can do so at Faith podcast p csa.org.
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: We look forward to hearing from you.
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: See you next time.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: See you next time y'all.
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: Well, thanks everyone for listening this week and thanks to Margaret for such an awesome conversation.
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: We hope everyone gets something out of it and we hope you all think a little bit differently about abortion and we hope that you all continue to walk with people who are going through that decision, whatever context they may be in.
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 2: And we hope that you look at Advent a little bit differently.
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: But thanks for listening and we hope you subscribe or follow wherever you get your podcast.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: And we also hope you leave us a review, hopefully five stars.
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: And if you have a question, send them to Faith podcast@peacea.org.
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: And also check out our website no matter if eight podcast.com, and we will talk to you again next week.
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: Happy Advent.