Latest / INSPIRE STORY / #0250 STORY INSPIRE: Gerard Barron — CIA Project Azorian & Deep-Sea Mining That Could Change the World

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#0250 STORY INSPIRE: Gerard Barron — CIA Project Azorian & Deep-Sea Mining That Could Change the World · INSPIRE STORY

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Jared Barron, welcome to the show, man.
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: Such a privilege to be here.
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: It's a privilege for me. Thank you. Thank you for coming.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: You first popped up on my radar from a mutual friend,
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: Cole Fackler from GBRS. And so we started looking at
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: India and been interviewing a couple of different guys that
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: have been mining different areas of the universe, I guess. And, um, and, uh,
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: so haven't talked to anybody doing it under the sea.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: So I thought this would be, I'm just fascinated by
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: innovators and what you guys are doing. So I really
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: appreciate you coming.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: Well, appreciate the chance to talk to on your platform
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: to a new audience.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Perfect. Well, everybody starts with an introduction. Here we go.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: Jared Barron. Entrepreneur hailing from a Queensland, Australia dairy farm.
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: Built global companies across media, technology, battery manufacturing, and resource development.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: Chairman and CEO of The Metals Company, leading the charge
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: in deep sea mining. A first principles thinker committed to
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: resource extraction with minimal impact on people and nature. A
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: global traveler splitting time between London, California, and Tonga. Where
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: the fuck is Tonga?
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: Well, I should correct that a tiny bit. It's more,
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: you know, Tonga is a beautiful Pacific Island country, but
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: I should mention Tonga and Nauru, which is also an
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: even smaller country, little island in the Pacific. But look,
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: it's a pretty, I'm a pretty frequent traveler, that's for sure.
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: And I'm Australian, of course, as you said. But over
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: the last 14 years, I've been working with Pacific Island countries.
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: And I mean, they are amazing people. I mean, Tonga
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: is beautiful. Nauru is really special. It's where the birds
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: used to stop when they headed south.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: No kidding.
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: And so it was discovered about 80 years ago that
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: it was rich in phosphate. And so the Germans and
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: the English and Australians and Kiwis came and took it all.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: And it was discovered back when Good old James Cook
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: was sailing the world after he discovered Australia and he
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: called it Pleasant Island. And then everyone came and took
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: all of their beautiful phosphate, which was used to feed
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: the world. And so now you have 80% of the
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: island that's uninhabitable. Then they handed the country back to
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: the people of Nauru. Said, how would you like independence
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: now that we've taken everything that you've got?
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Right.
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: I mean.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: Where's the favorite place? Where is your favorite place that
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: you've been? Oh, that's easy. Australia. Australia?
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: I'm a very proud Australian. Very proud Australian. Although, Erica,
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: my partner, said, why don't we get our 23 and
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: meet on our DNA? And I was like, yeah, I'd
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: be interested in that. Came back 100% Irish instantly.
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: No kidding?
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: 100%?
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Right on, man. Yeah. Right on.
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: So my ancestors were well-behaved, kept it in the family anyway.
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: Perfect.
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: Many generations in Australia.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: Perfect. Well, we've got a couple things to get through
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: before we get into the interview. And so one thing,
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: first thing is I got a Patreon account. And Patreon
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: is a community we built. They've been here with us
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: since the beginning. And when I started this damn thing
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: in my attic and Now we're what, this is our
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: third studio, hopefully our final, but they've been with us
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: through the whole journey. And they're the reason I get
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: to be here with you today. So one of the
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: things we do is we offer them the opportunity to
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: ask each and every guest a question. So this is
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: from Eric Alger. Jared, most people see you today as
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: the front man for deep sea mining, but before the
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: metals company, you were behind Nautilus Minerals, which collapsed under controversy.
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: What did that failure teach you about how much of
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: this battle is really technology and environment, and how much
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: of it is winning the story the world believes?
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: Well, I don't think it's about winning the story, but maybe,
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: great question, so I can set the record straight, because
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: in 2001, a friend of mine went to work for Nautilus.
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: He was the the second employee there. And he was
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: telling me about it. And I said, man, that sounds amazing.
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: He said, yeah, and we've got no money. Can you
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: put some money in? It's like, I mean, I was
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: building my own company at the time. But I was like, yeah, yeah,
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: of course, of course. Well, because I thought it was
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: such an obvious idea. And they were focused on a
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: different type of metals. They were focused on sea floor
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: massive sulfides, which is where the chimneys pop up between
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: the tectonic plates. Anyway, so I agreed to fund the
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: first $ 1.
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: 5 million.
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: And despite it almost sending me broke at the time,
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: because I was building another company as well at the
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: same time, which needed money, it ended up being a
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: great success. And we floated the company in 2006. And
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: I sold out in 2007, 2008, pretty well the same
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: time my friend left the company. But I never worked
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: for it. And I... But I was very helpful in
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: attracting other capital. And then the big guys came in.
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: We raised $ 400 million, $ 500 million. And then, of course,
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: after I sold out, Papua New Guinea, the country, in
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: 2012 maybe, decided they wanted to invest as well because
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: they were focused on a project up in Papua New Guinea.
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: And by law, the government has the right to invest.
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: So they said, we want to invest. So they did.
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: And then what happened, I'm winding the clock forward now.
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: Keep in mind, I sold out in 2007. In 2018,
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: the owners, there were two main people funding the company,
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: even though it was public. And they said, look, we're
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: the only two people that appear to be happy to
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: keep funding it. Why don't we put the assets up
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: for sale? So it was really called an administration, a reorganization.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: No one came forward, so they bought it and privatized it. 2018,
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: I sold out in 2007, and I made some good
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: money out of it, to be honest. But it was
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: a very different time. Firstly, it was operating in the
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: territorial waters of Papua New Guinea. It was a small
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: resource by comparison because they only ever found millions, single-digit
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: millions of tons of this stuff, very high grade, rich
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: in copper and gold, whereas we've got 2 billion tons
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: of these rocks, like the one in my hands, defined
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: resource of 1.6 billion. But we think about another 400
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: to 500 million tons of these rocks on our resource.
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: So very different scale and also a different time. The
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: geopolitics weren't as lively back then as they are now.
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: But I think that project will get into production. The
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: people that privatized it are continuing to push forward. And
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: I think it will be a success. But these projects
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: are tough. Getting a new industry started is tough. We
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: started this company in 2011. So my biggest gift from
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: Nautilus was made some good money out of it, but
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: it taught me about polymetallic nodules. And so in 2011,
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: we started this one. And here we are, 2025. And
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: we're at what I believe to be the final stretch
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: before the industry becomes big and commercial. So that's a
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: very long answer to Eric's question.
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: But yeah. It's a good answer. One more thing. Everybody
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: gets a gift. Oh, thank you.
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: I've seen people chewing away at these. How many packets
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: did our friend Palmer Lucky eat of these? Because he
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: seemed to be chewing a lot that day. He loves them.
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah? He loves them, yeah. I can't remember how many bags,
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: but it was a handful. So yeah, he was all
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: hopped up on gummy bears.
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you. Well, I bought you a gift today
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: as well.
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: Oh, I love gifts. Yeah.
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: Well, this is a very precious polymetallic nodule. And we
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: had them made about 5 million years old, this one.
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: We had them made by an artist in Detroit. And
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: This one is particularly oxidized, turned a bit gold. And
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: it's the same as the one that sits on the
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: Resolute desk. We prepared one for President Trump when he
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: signed the executive order on April 24. And got the
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: American flag and the coordinates of where we found it.
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: Oh, man, that is cool. That's beautiful. Look at that.
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: It's going to look amazing on one of these shelves.
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's going to go right over there. Yeah, good.
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: Good.
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: Man, thank you. This is really cool. Thank you.
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm pretty sure no one else will give you
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: one of those.
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure they won't either. But that's awesome. Yeah.
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: I've got to give a shout out to my buddy Andre,
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: who's one of my partners on this project. He would
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: love this room. He would love this room. Everything about it.
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah maybe i'll show him one day yeah yeah
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: i gotta give a shout out to eric bethel too
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: oh yeah totally he told me when i first met
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: him uh we had dinner at a place here and
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: he was telling me about some of the uh investments
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: that his vc had made and and uh the first
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: one that he had brought up is your company actually
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: he told me about that before we ever even met
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: right and um told me about what you guys are
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: doing and sounds awesome. I can't wait to dive into it,
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: but you know, and like I said, it's interesting. I've had,
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: you know, had people come on, talk about mining the moon,
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: talk about mining asteroids, enriching uranium, and now you're here,
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: we're doing it under the sea. So, um, it's going
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: to be fascinating. And, and, but what, what got you
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: interested in, in, in metals, in nodules?
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, I grew up in a dairy farm,
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: went to university, had four jobs in my first year,
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: realized there was no time for a fifth, started the company.
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: And that company worked out pretty well. And I've been
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: building companies my entire life. So I'm kind of naturally
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: drawn to things that are, you know, a little bit unique. And,
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: you know, I've been lucky to build some great companies
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: and grow them globally. And then, as I mentioned, I
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: invested in 2001 in another project, Nautilus. And then we
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: started this company in 2011. And originally, I was just
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: going to be a financial backer. I only decided to
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: step into the ring. And formally, I took over in
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: 2017 and became chairman and CEO Before that, we'd hired
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: someone out of one of the big mining companies, and
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: it wasn't working out so well. And I thought, what
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: do I know about running a mining company, a resource company?
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: You'd go to BHP or Freeport to go and find
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: one of them. But actually, when I started to dive
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: into the data behind this resource and how big it
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: was and how impactful it could be to global supply,
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: And of course, a number of things then came along
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: to help as well, like geopolitics has now made this
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: a really hot topic. Critical minerals are on everyone's mind.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: And if we take a step back and apply some
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: of that first principle thinking, 70% of our planet is ocean,
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: yet we don't get metals out of the ocean. We
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: get a few diamonds, but they're slowly being replaced by
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: lab-grown diamonds. But we don't get our nickel or copper
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: or cobalt or manganese out of the oceans. Yet in
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: this one little deposit where we are focused, 70% of
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: the known reserves of nickel and cobalt and manganese sit
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: in the form of these polymetallic nodules. And they literally
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: just sit on the seafloor like the one in my hand.
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: And so it's only a matter of time that we
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: got around to it. And there was a false start
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: back in the seventies when, and that's, that's another story, right?
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: Because the CIA was very involved in getting this whole
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: industry started.
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: Really? Why so? Well, I've got some ideas. I got
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: a feeling it doesn't have anything to do with mining.
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: It has nothing to do with mining, but it was
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: a great cover story. Yeah. And, um, the Russian, submarine,
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: which had nuclear warheads on it, the K-129, sank in
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: the Pacific. It had set sail from a Russian port.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: And the Americans were, this is dating back to 1968,
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: the Americans had already implanted listening devices on the seafloor
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: around the Pacific so they could detect nuclear explosion and
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: other activities. And so when they were tracking this submarine
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: and all of a sudden they heard an explosion and
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: the Russians didn't have this same technology installed in the oceans.
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: And so the Americans quickly clocked onto it and the
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: CIA got involved. But they had to have a reason
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: to be out there, because the Russians were looking for
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: their lost submarine. And they'd had no idea where it was.
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: They could just say, well, it left this port this time,
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: and we last heard at this date in this location.
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: So the CIA went ahead and started to plan how
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: they could recover this. First, they needed to establish, were
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: the warheads in place? Were they worth recovering? And when
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: they decided, yes, they were, they said, well, actually, we
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: can't just go and pick them up because the Russians,
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: it'll become an international incident. We might have World War
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: III on our hands. And so they said, we need to,
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of polymetallic nodules around them. And so
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: we need to use the recovery of these polymetallic nodules
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: as the cover story to go and recover these, the
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: sunken Russian submarine. So they thought, Well, they're not going
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: to believe that we, the government, are going to be involved.
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: So who can we get to front it? Howard Hughes.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: Because everyone thought, he's a bit crazy. He'll be up
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: for this. And so they reached out to Howard Hughes.
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: And he said, yeah, of course, no problem. And so
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: the CIA funded it all. And there were other companies involved.
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: And the Glomar Explorer became the first deep sea exploration
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: vessel and mining vessel. And that attracted other people into
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: the industry because, of course, no one else knew about this.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: And so then you had other consortia formed, Shell, and BP,
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: and Mitsubishi from Japan, and many other corporations became involved.
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: And this whole industry was moving forward. But then the
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: United Nations decided they wanted to get involved as well.
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: because they were like, well, who owns the ocean? We
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: should all agree this set of rules. We should share
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: these resources in a more equitable manner. And so 169
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: countries now signed onto this treaty called UNCLOS. But what
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: it meant was America had this leading position when it
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: comes to polymetallic nodules and ocean metals. But then they
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: decided to step back. and see where this international consortia went.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: And so the mining companies involved then got busy looking
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: for more minerals on land. But when you see this deposit,
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: like they estimate there are more than 20 billion tons
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: of these.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: More than 20 billion tons. As I said, we have
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: an estimated 2 billion tons on our license area. So
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: it's generally regarded we've got the best ground out there.
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: So you had all of these countries form this treaty.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: And of course, well, not form it, agree a treaty,
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: but Ronald Reagan was the president then, and he's like,
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: no way in the world. We're not going to join
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: another international treaty. So America stood aside and said, well,
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: because no one has sovereignty over the oceans, right? Every
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: nation can traverse the oceans. Every nation has the rights
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: to the seabed minerals on the floor, to lay cables everywhere.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: But all of these other countries said, well, when it
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: comes to the sea floor minerals, how about we agree
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: a set of rules? And so they signed the treaty,
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: but America did not. And so it's been a pretty
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: exciting year for us, last 12 months at least, because
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: we've pivoted our business away from this international organization to
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: now focus entirely on permitting this resource through the US administration.
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: And that really became possible. with the election of President Trump.
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: That's good to hear. That's good to hear. What, I mean,
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: what percentage of that rock has precious metals in it?
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: Well, it's amazing, right? This forms through precipitation. So it
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: grows a little bit like a pearl grows. And so
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: We turn 100% of this into saleable material. And it's
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: got about 33% pure metal. But the rest of the
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: material is, there's some silica in there. There's a lot
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: of crystallized water in there. So about 24% of it
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: is moisture. But the rest of it, we all turn
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: into saleable product. And that in itself is almost, Well,
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: very unique to this resource because on land, you know,
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: you go looking for a copper deposit. And last year,
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: the average grade of copper mined was about 0.6 of 1%.
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: So it means that you go digging up a ton
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: of material, a thousand kilograms of material, and you have
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: to treat it and process and cart it and take
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: it places looking for six kilograms of copper. so it's
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: so it's very inefficient and it's very expensive and it
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: creates a lot of impacts whereas we lift these up
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: take them to shore process them and we turn it
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: all into saleable material so it's kind of.
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: Unique you do the processing as well that's our plan
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: wow that's our plan Mine and process. Yeah.
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: And the reason why we're so excited about the US
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: is because President Trump and his administration made re-industrialization a priority.
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: Because for decades, America has been outsourcing mining and processing
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: and refining to other parts of the world, particularly China.
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: And then, of course, you wake up one day and
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: you realize that your adversaries have control out of all
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: of the critical minerals that you need. And it was
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: a foolish playbook in hindsight, but it was hard and
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: heavy industry. You know, the world wanted to be involved
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: in cool new industries, but when it comes down to it,
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: if it ain't grown its mind, And so you can't
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: just dream up a land-based mine. They don't just appear
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: out of nowhere. And all of the obvious ones were
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: found and developed. So that's why if you look at
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: about half of our revenue comes from nickel. And 100%
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: of the growth in nickel supply over the last seven
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: years has come from what we call rainforest nickel. And
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: to get to it, you've got to remove the rainforest.
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: to dig up this material called nickel laterite. And we're
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: not talking about anything other than pristine, beautiful rainforests, which
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: are filled with indigenous people in some cases, certainly filled
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: with enormous amount of biodiversity and biomass, filled with cute,
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: cuddly animals. And led by China, it's just bulldozing it
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: out of the way. And that's the beginning of the impacts,
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: you know, because to process that material comes with a
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: host of impacts. The waste material gets spilt into rivers
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: and oceans and kills off the local industry, the fishing industries. And,
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: you know, I mean, for your listeners, just punch into
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: your favorite search engine, rainforest nickel. And, you know, I've
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: had the... first had experience of witnessing in one particular region.
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: It was in Indonesia, actually, where 10 years ago, there
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: were no people focused on nickel mining. We visited there,
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: my team and I, maybe three years ago. This town
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: of 70,000 people had been built all focused on nickel mining. 70,000 people.
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: 70,000 people.
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: That's a lot of people. Yeah, it is. And all
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: of a sudden, and it was all 100% done by China.
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: I mean, when China sets its mind on things, you know,
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: they become very, very impactful and successful. And in this case,
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: that's what they've done. And, you know, I know we're
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: going to talk about it today, but this industry almost
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: went that way as well. Man. And it was only
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: the election of President Trump that provided a pathway to
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: us rescuing it and America reasserting its dominant role when
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: it comes to ocean metals.
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  Speaker 2: that is applying for the permit. Yeah.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: Gotcha. And you said 50% of our revenue comes from nickel? Yeah.
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: Is that US revenue?
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: Well, at the moment, we haven't generated our first revenue.
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: 2027 is when we're aiming for first production revenue. But
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: if you look at the metals in here, we've got
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: nickel and copper and cobalt and manganese. And America imports
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: about 50% of its copper, but it pretty well imports
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: almost 100% of its nickel, cobalt, and manganese.
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: Wow. What do we use those metals for?
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: Well, let's think about, well, copper is used everywhere, right?
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: For wires and many other things. But nickel is mainly
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: used to make it's a hardening substance to make stainless steel.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: So you add it to steel to make stainless steel.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: It's also used in super alloys. You need it for
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: making military equipment. And then cobalt is, of course, used
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: in your iPhone battery. But it's also a very efficient thing.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: They're all used in batteries for cars as well. So
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: if you have a Tesla EV, it's full of nickel
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: and used to be full of cobalt. They kind of
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: managed to get cobalt out of it, but mainly because
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: they weren't able to get an affordable supply that hadn't
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: touched the hands of child miners in the Congo, which
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: is where the cobalt market is characterized. And then steel,
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: manganese is used to make steel. You can't make a
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: ton of steel without manganese. And now more manganese is
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: going into batteries as well. So these are all what
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: we call base metals. They're the foundation building blocks for industry.
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: And if you want to look at over the last,
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: since 2002, about 20,000 companies have evaporated who were involved
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: in heavy industry.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: 20,000.
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: 20,000? 20,000.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: Wow. 20,000.
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: Millions of jobs have disappeared. And it's all because of
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: outsourcing to developing countries. You know, China saying, we can
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: do it. And of course... I know that the current
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: administration are very focused on looking at dumping and have
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: these materials been coming back into the country at cheaper
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: prices and 232 reviews are underway, I understand. Because it's
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: another way where you can go and buy where you
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: can go and buy market share and end up controlling
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: an entire industry. Because the incentive price for local production
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: is too low to attract investment into those industries. Because
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: there are some nickel deposits in America. They're small. But
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: they need nickel prices to be 50% higher than where
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: they are to even break even.
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: Interesting.
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: Don't have that problem because we're so high grade. I
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: mentioned before last year the average grade of copper was 0.6
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: of 1%. So this is filled with nickel, copper, cobalt,
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: and manganese. But if you were to put all of
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: those other metals into copper equivalent, just for value perspective,
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: we're like more than 7% copper equivalent. So an order
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: of magnitude richer material. And that obviously has a big
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: impact on the economics. And so We can withstand dumping
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: from certain markets, like China.
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: So we're not mining any nickel here in the.
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: U.S.? No.
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: They've shut down because the company's not making enough money.
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: No, that's right. Over the last five years, you've seen
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: some of the biggest nickel miners, BHP, valet, you know,
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: slow down or shut their operations, put them on care
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: and maintenance, hoping for a recovery in the price. But
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: there doesn't seem to be any recovery in the price
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: available in the next few years. And, you know, and
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: at the moment, you know, if you've got 70% market share,
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: which is probably what China has when it comes to nickel. 70%?
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: 70%, yeah. Yeah.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: Why not go for a hundred? Keep the price down there. Yeah.
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: Go for a hundred. And then you can put the
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: price to whatever you want.
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: That's true. That's true. Man, China's just got us at
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: so many different angles. The whole world, it seems like.
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: That's because they're really smart. You know, and I, you
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: mentioned Eric before, Bethel. He's one of the guys that
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: gets it, you know, because he's lived there. He's lived
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: the experience. I've lived the experience as well. I've, I've
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: admired their approach. I was, you know, one of the
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: companies I grew was making batteries in China back when
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: they started to invite foreign investment, you know, in the
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: early 90s. They were starter batteries, not so much they
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: were EV batteries. You know, I watched Padong come out
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: of the ground. You know, there were hundreds of cranes
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: building at the same time. It was like, I remember
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: I used to take people with me on trips to say,
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: you've got to come and see this. Like, you will
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: not believe it, you know. You'd pull up at a
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: train crossing and there'd be 2,000 bikes there. Now you
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: pull up and there's no bikes there, you know. It's just,
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: it's impressive. It's impressive. But I think the West has
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: fallen into the trap of letting them do that thinking
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: it'll all work out in the end. But that's a trap.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: I don't think you're right. I know you're right with that.
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: I know you're right. I mean, they own practically our
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: whole damn supply chain. I mean, does Australia, are they
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: concerned about all the stuff that China's involved in and
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: doing and innovating?
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think the, you know, Scott Morrison, you know,
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: recent president, former prime minister, we call them, had a
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: bit of a blow up with the Chinese because he
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: ordered an inquiry into where COVID came from. They didn't
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: like that. So they banned alcohol and fresh livestock.
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: Didn't impact it.
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: They just bought it somewhere else. And so we supplied them.
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: I think the current prime minister is laying out a
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: red carpet He is.
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah. How so?
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: Sees them as a great trade partner, sees them as
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: a great trade partner, not spending enough money on defense,
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: just thinking everything's gonna work out beautifully. It's a trap
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: to fall into.
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: What is the sentiment in Australia about that?
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: Australia's lost its way a little bit in my personal opinion.
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: I think that people want to follow, voters want to
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: follow someone, a leader, and there is not a good
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: viable alternative in Australia at the moment, so it's a
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: left-leaning government. The net result of that is You know,
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: you've got eight out of every 10 new jobs created
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: in the last four years are in the government.
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: Are you serious? Eight out of 10? Holy shit. Yeah. Wow.
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: And you can see a theme repeating, you know? And
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: I think that one of the challenges is, you know,
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: These economies go on until they bust, right? You know,
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: I see it in the UK now as well. I mean, eventually,
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: whether it's immigration or whether it's government spending, eventually the
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: books don't balance, you know? And eventually, you know, the
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: press coming out of the UK at the moment is horrible,
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: you know? Free speech, you can't say things. You end
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: up being locked up for saying stuff compared to some
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: of the other crimes that some of the not so
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: welcome visitors are committing. But the world went a little
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: bit crazy. And I think it's kind of coming back
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: a little bit. At least people feel safer, partly because
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: of platforms like your own. Being canceled by the media
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: now doesn't matter. It's like, whatever. It's like, there are
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: better avenues to express views safely.
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think mainstream media is going to the wayside
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: like we were talking earlier. I mean, the average viewer
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: of mainstream media right now is about 69 years old. Yeah, yeah.
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: It will die with the baby boomer generation. Unless they
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: make some miraculous change, which I don't see that happening
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: at all. Just as divisive as they've ever been. Yeah.
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: Maybe more now, but....
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, look, I think... Not before time. I mean, and
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: I've lived that firsthand. I've lived it with China where
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: I've seen what people like Eric talk about. I've had
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: firsthand experience of them intimidating me and what we're doing
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: and our aligning with the USA. They don't like it
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: because they thought they had it all going to plan.
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: And we broke the plan.
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: Good for you. Yeah. That's honorable. Yeah. So where all
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: does the Meadows Company operate? Is it strictly off the
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: coast of North America?
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: There's only one deposit that we're focused on at the moment.
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: It's this area known as the Clarion Clipperton Zone. And
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: it was discovered way back in the 1870s by the British,
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: who sailed around the world on HMS Challenger with a
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: basket off the back. And thankfully, the steam piston had
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: been invented so they could haul up this basket. It
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: was at sea for four years. And they came across
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: this big field of nodules about 1,000 miles southwest of
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: San Diego. And I mentioned before they precipitate, right? They
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: grow a little bit like pearls grow in the ocean.
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: And so there are nodules found in other oceans, but
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: they're just not as interesting as these because these contain
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: a very high grade of nickel and copper. And the
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: reason for that is if you look to our east,
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: you've got the Rockies and the Andes. And over millennia,
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: they eroded into the Pacific Ocean. And so you had
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: these currents that came from the north and south, headed west.
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: And that's where you had this belt of nodules. It's amazing.
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: It's about 1,000 miles high, about 4,000 miles wide. where
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: it's like a carpet of nodules. I mean, it's the
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: most beautiful mother nature gift, you know, far away from
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: human settlement, no alternative use for this part of the
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: ocean floor, just sat there looking proud saying, come and
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: get me.
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: Man. So how does it work? I mean, well, actually,
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: how much of the ocean floor have you explored for
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: other deposits of nodules?
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: We haven't, to be honest. But there are other people exploring,
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: including NOAA, the US agency. They go out and Boehm,
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: who explore their own territorial waters, and of course, other
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: explorers that the Chinese, I think, have explored a lot
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: of the ocean floor, a lot more than they probably admit.
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: But this is so big, like it's multi-generational deposits. You know,
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: as I said, 70% of the known reserves of nickel, cobalt,
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: and manganese are in this one deposit. And so that's
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: where we've had our focus since 2011, purely there.
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: So you don't even have a need to explore anymore. No.
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: Do you think that there are other metals under there
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: that we don't know about yet?
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, probably. Yeah. Probably. I mean, you know, before I
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: mentioned where these tectonic plates meet, you know, if you
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: get a map out of the world, you can see
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: how the globe, how planet Earth all sticks together. So
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: you get a lot of pressure coming out from the
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: core of the Earth. And, you know, that's where a
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: lot of these deposits have formed and the systems die.
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: So they're very hard. Some of the systems are still active.
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: They're still emitting gases. So they're easier to find. They're
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: like chimneys underwater. They're fascinating. And, um, But some of
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: them have been dead for, I don't know, a million
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: years or 100,000 years. And so they're covered. So you've
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: got to go really exploring. So yeah, there are other
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: deposits out there for sure. And Tonga is an interesting
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: example there because they have a lot of volcanogenic activity
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: around where they are. You saw that massive underwater volcano
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: exploded some years ago. So look, some of these Pacific
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: Island countries in particular have a lot of metals in their,
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: potential metals in their economic zones. So there will be
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: opportunities there as well. And I think what the world
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: is waiting to see is, you know, us to get started.
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: And then, you know, I think there'll be a massive rush.
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: You know, now we know we have the best ground
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: in the best area. But once people see firsthand the
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: low impact of what we're doing, the fact that the
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: area recovers fast, I mean, in the last, since 2011,
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: we've spent, I don't know, now approaching three quarters.
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: Of a billion dollars.
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: A lot of it on environmental research. Even though, you know,
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: I always use this first principle analogy to say, We
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: should be carrying out extractive industries in parts of the
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: planet with the least life, not the most life. At
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: the moment, we're pushing into our rainforests, which is the
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: area with the most biodiversity, the most cute and cuddly animals,
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: when down here on the other end of that table
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: is the abyssal zone. And the abyssal plains and the
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: abyssal hills cover 50% of the planet, OK? 50% of
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: the planet, almost. Approaching 70% of the oceans are considered abyssal,
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: characterized by deep, low amount of biomass there because all
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: the food gets eaten on the way down the water column.
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: And if you look on our website at metals.co, you'll
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: see lots of video of us doing trials down there.
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: And there are no plants down there, of course, because
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: we're talking more than 4,000 meters deep. And the amount
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: of life living down there is grams per square meter.
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: Most of it bacterial single cell organisms living in the sediment.
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: So if you ever had to have a big resource somewhere,
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: this would be the perfect place. You can't go and
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: grow crops there or live there or, you know, it's
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: the perfect thing yet. We also have people who wish
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: we wouldn't do it, you know.
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: There's pushback. I mean, First of all, I love what
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: you're doing. I mean, you're doing it cheaper and you are,
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's net positive for the earth, right? Because
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: the mining is hopefully going into the ocean where there's
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: not much life. But, you know, when it comes to
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: the rainforest and, you know, some of the stuff that
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: we see, I mean, I've seen documentary after documentary about
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: what we're doing there. And it goes through my head
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: when I see those things. Are we destroying more resources
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: than we're even gaining? And, you know, I mean, all
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: the undiscovered life, organisms, microorganisms. I mean, timber, trees clean
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: the air. I mean, it didn't bother me early on
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: in life, because I didn't realize. But now when I
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: see it, I'm like, man, if you look at all
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: the landfills and shit, I just watched one about Amazon
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: and all the destruction that that company is doing to
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: the earth. And they try to put this facade on
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: that that, you know, oh, we're saving the earth. And
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: it's like, no, you're not, man. You've created more waste,
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: you know, through Amazon than arguably anything that's ever existed.
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: And so I love that about your company. Was that,
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: is that an early on ethos or is that a
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: byproduct that came out of it?
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I've always deemed myself an environmentalist and
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: I often get criticized for the fact that by the
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: NGO community or activists who don't want to see any
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: progress saying, you've just switched from talking about environment to
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: now talking about geopolitics and critical supply chains. It's like, well,
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: if you go back to my presentation decks a decade ago,
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: you'll find security of supply was always highlighted as one
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: of the critical issues. But, you know, at the end
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: of the day, geopolitics are pretty important, you know, because
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: we've got trading partners who've said they'll turn off supply
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: if they choose to. And that tells you you've got
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: to make some changes in that supply chain. And so,
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: but if we just maybe take a journey down that path,
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: because circularity is something we should aspire to. And at
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: The Metals Company, we do aspire to it. And if
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: you go, we just had a big strategy day on
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: August 4, actually, where we talked about step one is,
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: where can we find the lowest impact supply of these
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: critical minerals? And when I say lowest impact, I mean
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: less destruction of biomass ecosystem, less impact on biodiversity, less
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: CO2 emissions, less impact on freshwater ecosystems, and the list
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: goes on. And we've spent so much money, like hundreds
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: of millions of dollars on that whole basket of studies.
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: And they all point to one thing, and that is
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: that we can massively reduce the impact when we create
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: metals from these rocks compared to land-based alternatives, no matter
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: where they come from. Ocean metals from these rocks is
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: the way to go. But eventually, the world has to
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: get more focused on recycling, and they will. And when
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: I say we need to aspire to circularity, in the future,
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: I hope we won't be picking up these rocks in
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: 100 years' time. We should be making sure that we're using,
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: recycling every single atom we put out there. In fact,
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: we talk a lot about as metals as a service.
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: I built a software as a service company in a
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: previous company. Metals as a service is a similar idea.
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: It's like, hey, we'll give you these metals. You can
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: use them, but we want them back. Because they have
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: to do something with them, right? At the end of life,
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: you've got a responsibility. So you can't just put them
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: in the waste pile. You've got to hand them back somewhere.
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: So instead of us just treating fresh nodules, we'll treat
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: recycled material, black mass, as well. And eventually, recycled material
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: will have a growing share. But at the moment, there
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: are not enough metals in the system to meet the needs.
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: So we need to find a fresh input of billions
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: of tons until we build that reserve. because there are
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: just not enough metals coming back in to be recycled.
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: It's easy to see how an electric vehicle battery gets recycled,
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: but a lot of the other metals in the system
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: don't get recycled, or they have a much longer life.
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: I can see in decades to come that we will
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: not be in the business of picking up rocks. We'll
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: be in the business of purely recycling the metals that
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: we previously sold. And that's a good day because that's
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: going to be a great thing for planet Earth, an
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: amazing thing.
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: That's very forward thinking on your part. Do you have
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: any idea how much metal would need to be in
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: circulation for that to actually take place?
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: We've done the calculations, and it's a big number. It's
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: a big number. I think if we use a trusted source,
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: say the International Energy Agency or the World Bank, they
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: pretty well align. They say we need to increase extractive
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: industries by between 4% and 500% per annum by 2040.
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: four to five times more mining by 2040 to meet
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: the needs wow that's a lot it's a lot and
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: you know and i think that that's where people don't
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: give enough attention to where the materials are coming from
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: you know for the electric car battery that you're using
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: or your iphone battery or just generally stuff. If it
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: ain't grown, it's mined. It's that simple. And of course,
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: we've been talking in the recent years all about AI
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: and bits. It's the bit economy. But actually, it's time
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: for atoms, because re-industrialization is going to depend on the
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: atoms that are contained in here, the real world infrastructure.
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: And so I think that's where You know, I get
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: criticism from some people in the environmental group who are
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: very anti-anything. They're anti-growth. They're anti the fact that, you know,
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: despite the fact that we've spent hundreds of millions of
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: dollars on scientific research, they criticize the fact, yeah, but
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: you spent it so you can influence the outcome. It's like,
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: it doesn't work that way. We went and hired, you know,
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: the best universities and organizations to carry out this research,
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: the Natural History Museum, Texas AM, Florida University. There's 20
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: of the world's leading institutions who have subject matter expertise
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: when it comes to ocean research. So we went, said,
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: this is our goal. This is the work program. We'll
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: pay for it. You get to do it. You get
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: to publish your results. But it all filters back into
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: this one integrated environmental impact study. And we've had the
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: green pieces of the world come and board our boat
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: in the middle of the Pacific to try and stop
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: us doing this research, because they don't want to see
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: the results, you know? The results are very inconvenient to
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: their argument.
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: You know, we've seen time and time again that these groups,
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: that they don't want to see growth. And I mean,
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: I think the first one that comes to mind is
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: US energy sector. I mean, we've really kneecapped ourselves, especially
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: when it comes to comparison to China. you know they're
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: building a new coal plant every other damn day yeah
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: and they're way ahead on nuclear it seems to be
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: and and you know we we we don't mine our
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: own gas you know not nearly enough and can't go
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: nuclear the cleanest form of energy in the world according
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: to the folks that I've interviewed on the subject. I agree.
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: And we want to, you know, there was this big push,
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: which seems to have died down a little bit now
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: with this administration, but this big green push with renewables,
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: you know, and the groups behind that claim energy independence
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: for America, but it's not energy independence because all of the,
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: we don't mine our own lithium, we don't produce our
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: own solar. We don't produce our own wind turbines. That's
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: all imported from China. And so I don't understand how
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: anybody can think that that is energy independence when you
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: are beholden to another country for the materials and the
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: tech and actual production of all of the panels and
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: stuff that come from China. That's not independence. And You
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: talk about independence from China when it comes to the metals.
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: And so I do have a question. I mean, in
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: regards to the US, I mean, we've had the ability
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: to gain independence in a variety of ways from our
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: oil and gas reserves, which we have not tapped into
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: very much. And we are relying on the Middle East
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: for that. We just talked about renewables. We talked about nuclear.
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: I mean, does the US have the stomach to become
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: independent in the metals industry or any other industry for
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: that matter? Do we have the appetite for that? Do
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: we have the stomach? Can we actually, do you think
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: we'll actually do it? Because we've had the opportunity several times.
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: And it's really, when you think about it in that
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: aspect and how far we are behind on energy, our
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: supply chain, all these things, and beholden to China, I mean,
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: Do you see the change? Is it going to happen?
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: I do.
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: But I think no matter what your political view, people
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: should be grateful for the Trump administration getting into government.
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: Because I.
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: Swear to you, Ocean Metals was about to go China's way.
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: This is a bipartisan issue. Critical mineral supply chain is
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: a bipartisan issue. But not many people have the stomach
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: or the kahunas to be able to see it through.
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: And we saw President Trump issue an executive order on
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: April 24 to say, we have a right to these minerals.
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: I'm instructing my government agencies to fast track the permitting
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: because We need the critical minerals. China dominates the supply
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: chain now. They're going to dominate this as well if
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: we don't get busy. And so I think that a
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: lot of the moves that this administration are making are
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: starting to.
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: Work. Every innovator that I've had in here that is
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: doing some type of you know, good for the country
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: is saying the same thing. They're all beating to the
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: same drum saying that this administration is getting rid of
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: a lot of the red tape for innovators to be
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: able to do what they do and make the world
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: a better place. And so.
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: And the thing I see, Sean, is the political appointees,
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: they're really top shelf people. Like, they are people that
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: have come out of, they're either amazingly successful or they're
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: people that have come and put their careers on hold
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: so they can come and help out. There's one guy
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: who's the critical minerals are. He just said, the administration
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: needs me. I'm going to stop what I'm doing for
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: this major mining company and come and help the administration
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: sort out critical minerals. And he's at the top of
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: his game. And that's what I noticed with the political
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: appointees that we're dealing with, the same with Noah. The
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: people we're dealing with have conviction, and they are super talented.
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: And I think that that is going to create that momentum.
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: And we're confident that we'll be in production during the
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: 47th administration. And we're also confident that we will make
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: it a bipartisan issue, because re-industrialization is so critical. I
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: don't think anyone would argue that it's not going to
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: be good for the long-term benefit of America to bring
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: back some of those jobs to America. And you would
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: think the other side of politics wanted even more, right?
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: But I think this administration will get that ball rolling,
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: and I think it won't matter, please God, who's in power.
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: Because once you get the ball rolling, people will get
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: a taste of it. They'll get a taste of jobs
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: being created. Because it's true, right? AI is going to
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: cost jobs. It's hard to... I see the optimist talking
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: about how it's going to work out fine. You know,
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure about that.
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of people are worried about AI
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: taking their jobs. And it's already started. It's already started
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: in just about every sector, other than manual labor. But
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: So let's talk about how this actually works. What does
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: it take to mine minerals at the bottom of the
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: ocean floor 4,000 meters below?
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: Well, it's a big advantage that they just sit on
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: the ocean floor like this. So we don't have to
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: drill anything. or dig, or tunnel to find them. It's
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: a two-dimensional resource, which is quite amazing. You go down
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: there looking, exploration's pretty easy. So we send a robot down.
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: So we build this beautiful robot. In fact, our partner, Allseas,
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: had built it for us. Allseas are one of our
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: biggest investors, and for the last 40 years, they've been
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: laying pipes in the deep ocean to connect oil and
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: gas to transport it around the world. owned by an
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: amazing engineer, Edward Herrimer. And so we built the robot.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: We have a production vessel floating up top. In fact,
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: our first production vessel, called the Hidden Gem, was a
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: former oil and gas drill ship, which we bought for, well,
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: Allseas bought it, but with some help from us, very cheaply.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: It was a $ 700 million boat, new in 2011. bought
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: it for less than $ 50 million. And we then connect
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: it with a big riser, it's called. Think of it
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: as a big straw, which is the vertical transport system.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: And so basically the robot crawls along and fires a
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: jet of water at these nodules. So kind of a
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: curved head, fires a jet of water. It creates an
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: inverse pressure and lifts the nodule, goes into the hopper,
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: We separate the sediment, which we spit out the back,
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: and we then move the nodule into the vertical transport
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: system and pump it up to the boat, 4,200 meters.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: How big are these robots?
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: Well, the first one we built was six meters wide,
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: weighed about 90 tons. The biggest challenge was keeping it
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: on the floor.
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: 90 tons?
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: Because when you put it in water, it gets a
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: lot of buoyancy. Then you add more buoyancy.
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: 90 tons of buoyant. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: In fact, funny story, another contractor was out there doing
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: some trials. They too had a collector, but they weren't doing,
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: you know, in 2022, we ran a full collector, full
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: end-to-end production system, but they were just testing their robot.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 2: They put it over the ship and dropped it, literally.
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: And they thought, Goodness, 4,200 meters, and there was big panic,
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: including from us, because it wouldn't have been helpful to
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: me either. I mean, shit happens, right?
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: I mean, it shouldn't.
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: But they were able to retrieve it, and it was fine,
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: because it just floats down and landed. It was like, okay,
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: I'm here now. And they checked it over and put
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: it back down, and it went working. And so anyway,
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: back to my story. So we put a robot down there.
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: Our production one will be wider, more like 15 meters wide,
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: maybe even wider. And it crawls along like snow track tires.
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: And back in the 1970s when they ran these collector trials,
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: so it's all pretty cool. But in 1979, they actually
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 2: launched a machine, and they to pick up these very
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 2: same rocks back when America was driving the innovation. That
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: was really pioneering engineering. But back then, they used a
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: Archimedes screwdriver system to propel it forward. And they made
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: a big imprint in the ocean floor, about 80 centimeters.
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: But whereas Al's makes about a 2 centimeter imprint, just
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: literally glides on the ocean floor. So we fire a
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: jet of water, separate it out, pump it up. And eventually,
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: I anticipate we'll have a lot of production vessels out there.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 2: We then offload them. Two analogies I use. One is
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: they're like golf balls on a driving range. We've got
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: to pick them up with the greatest efficiency and the lightest,
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: lowest impact. And then it's a little bit like harvesting
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: a paddock of wheat. You just keep harvesting. And then
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: the bin pulls up alongside. In our case, it'll be
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: a bulk carrier. We offload the nodules. It goes off
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 2: to port. Another one comes. It goes off to port.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: But you're always in production.
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: Interesting. You know, what's interesting is this thing weighs like,
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: looks like it would be heavy. It weighs almost nothing. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: And so, I mean, how much of this is metals?
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: About 33% of it is metal. It's got a specific
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: gravity of about 1.9. So no, it's very light. It's
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: because of how they form, right? Because of them precipitating.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: It starts around a kernel of something, could be a
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: grain of sand or a broken shell. And how long?
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: And so these are just on the ocean floor like sand.
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: They're just right there on the top. You don't have
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: to do anything digging-wise to get to them. They're just...
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: go on the hopper, they get sucked up to the
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: mothership and bring it over for processing. That's right. How
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: many of those, can you give me a snapshot of
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: how much of those you're gaining an hour a day?
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: I mean, how many of those are you picking up?
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: Well, our production vessel will do about 3 million tons
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: a year. 3 million tons a year? Yeah.
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: And we'll be in production about 270 days a year.
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So. So with this international treaty. Yeah. And everybody
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: has access to the ocean. I mean, what would, and
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: you found, you found the mother load of these things
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: or back in, I think you said 1870.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 1: The British found them in 1870.
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: British found them in 1870.
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: I mean, Will we start to see, you know, is
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: this gains traction? When it sounds like it will, I
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: think you said 2027 will be the first production vehicle?
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: How are the competitors, if there are any, I mean,
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: will they, will everybody be vacuuming these things up off
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: the ocean floor in the exact same spot? Will it
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 1: become crowded? I mean, how do you, is there any
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 1: possibility that you will secure, you know, any specific rights to,
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 1: to an area?
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It's highly regulated now, very highly regulated. So since 2011,
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: we've been working through the International Seabed Authority. And if
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: you recall when I said the United Nations stepped in
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: and took over the process, they created this framework called UNCLOS,
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 2: the United Nations Convention of the Law of the Sea.
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: And it basically said, every country owns 12 miles from
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 2: your coastline, has an economic right to everything within 200,
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 2: but beyond that it will be considered the area. And
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: this UNCLOS called for the establishment of the International Seabed
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 2: Authority to be established, which it was in 1994. Now remember,
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 2: the United States never agreed to it. In fact, they'd
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: been a consistent objector to it. So they're not part
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: of it. But for 169 other countries, including China and Russia,
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: they signed this treaty that said, when it comes to minerals,
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 2: these are the rules we'll play by. And America went, nah,
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: we're not going to do that. They were like, we
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: don't even like multilateral organizations. One vote, one country doesn't
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: seem to work for the biggest economy in the world.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, how insightful they were. How insightful they were,
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 2: because this international organization has been entirely overrun by NGOs.
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: And it's played right into China's hand. So China have
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 2: five licenses through this body, the International Seabed Authority. But
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 2: what started to happen was, and this is more a
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 2: representation of politics around the world, the world went a
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 2: bit crazy. You saw governments in Europe be very heavily
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 2: influenced by smaller governments who had to form coalitions to govern.
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 2: So you don't have two parties, like in some countries,
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 2: like UK is still that, Australia is still that, US
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 2: is pretty well still that. But in other countries like
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: Germany and France, you had or Belgium or the Netherlands,
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 2: you have like a dozen different parties to form a
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: coalition to get the votes to be able to govern.
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 2: So you had green voters who might only hold two
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 2: or three seats, so a very tiny, tiny, tiny majority,
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 2: but they might have the balance of power. Without their
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 2: two votes, you might not have majority. And so what
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 2: the Green Party started to do was to say, we
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 2: really care about this ocean metal, and there's no better
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 2: example than France. So France have a pretty good nuclear industry, right?
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 2: And if you go back four years ago now, Macron,
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 2: the president, came out with a very public statement, which
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 2: I was very excited about, said, here's our 2030 plan.
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 2: France needs to re-industrialize. We need to bring back jobs.
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: For that, we need metals. We have these ocean deposits.
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 2: We can get these ocean metals far more effectively than
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 2: we can possibly find metals on land. It was a
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 2: pretty good speech. 18 months later, at COP, I think
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 2: it was COP 23, total switch. We should ban deep
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 2: sea mining, was Macron's new pitch. And the reason why
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 2: he changed his position was because, once again, he was
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 2: losing influence, losing power. So he had to do a
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 2: deal with the Greens. And they wanted him to pull
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 2: back his nuclear ambition. He said, I can't touch that.
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 2: We need it. And it was like, how about I
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 2: give you ocean metals? It's literally like that. And, you know,
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 2: and I've seen firsthand how they've worked with corporations. You know,
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 2: WWF did the same to Maersk. You know, Maersk were
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 2: one of our shareholders. They were one of our early supporters.
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 2: Great company. One of the great shipping companies of the world.
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 2: WWF went in there and said, we don't like you
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 2: being part of the metals company. We'd like you to
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 2: sell your ownership, or we're going to come after you
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 2: for your green shipping ambitions. And I had a friend
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 2: sat in the room with them. They are bullies, these NGOs.
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 2: They are absolute bullies. And so that's how they overtook
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 2: some of these countries. So these countries, Like Germany is
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 2: another great example, right? Germany used to be an industrial behemoth.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 2: Now they're deindustrialization because of energy policy and other things.
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 2: And there is an industry body there that represents every
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 2: industry association who has pleaded with the government to support
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 2: ocean metals like they used to because America can't get
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 2: reliable supply. Sorry, Germany can't get reliable supply. Yet their
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 2: government were appeasing the green side of things saying, oh,
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 2: we should slow down and just wait. Now, this all
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 2: played into China's hands because we are the most ambitious
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 2: player in the industry, right? We were driving the industry forward. China,
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 2: despite the fact that they want to dominate this because,
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 2: you know, President Xi made a public statement saying we
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 2: want to dominate deep ocean, deep earth and deep space,
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 2: part of their plan. But they're running a little bit
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 2: behind us, five to seven years.
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 1: That's good to hear.
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 2: It's good to hear. And it was going pretty well
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 2: for them because the NGOs were in there influencing the
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 2: countries who were influencing the International Seabed Authority adopting the
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 2: final rules. And without those final rules, it's very hard
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 2: for me to get started. And so this is playing into,
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 2: this is when I mentioned it was playing into China's playbook.
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 2: This is how they were doing it. China sat back going, oh,
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 2: it's going to take a bit longer, is it?
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 1: No problem.
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 2: Just let it happen. But for me, I depend on
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 2: shareholder support. And unfortunately, shareholders would not have been willing
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 2: to give me another five years to sit around and
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 2: see what happens. I would have had to pivot the
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 2: business into something else, which I was preparing to do
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 2: because I did not like what I was seeing.
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 1: What would you have pivoted into?
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 2: Well, we were running the ruler over a number of
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 2: other assets, land-based opportunities. My board didn't like it particularly,
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 2: but we would have done what we had to survive
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 2: because we would have just kept the licenses and kept
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 2: them rolling on. I would have had to streak the business,
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 2: you know, the team that we've had together over the last,
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 2: many years would have had to go. But you know
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 2: when things get so bad, they've got to self-correct. It's
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 2: like the rubber band. It was just pulling and pulling
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 2: and pulling. And we just knew it would break, question
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 2: of when. And luckily, it broke in the form of
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 2: President Trump being elected. And it had gone so far crazy.
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 2: So we knew there was a pathway, because America put
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 2: the rules and regulations in place in 1980 that the
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 2: International Seabed Authority still can't agree. And you can understand
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 2: why they can't agree. There's 169 countries trying to agree something,
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 2: even though they have a smaller council, 36-member council. So
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 2: getting agreement when the NGOs are there chipping away, trying
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 2: to slow progress or stop the industry, that's their plan.
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 1: And we knew.
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 2: We knew what the strategy of the NGO, the activist was.
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 2: Their strategy was to bleed the metals company dry, to
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 2: just slow things down, to let us run out of money.
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 2: And we were lucky to have amazingly supportive shareholders. I
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 2: mentioned Andre before and All Seas and myself agreed to
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 2: keep funding the business. And we lent the company money
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 2: because we believed we didn't want to keep printing equity.
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 2: We wanted to just keep the business moving, waiting for
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 2: a moment in time when the value could be restored
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 2: to something more equitable. And so we knew there was
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 2: a legal pathway to lodge the application through the United
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 2: States because they had the rules in place. So this
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 2: is a very long, windy answer to your question about
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 2: who's going to dominate it because Because now, of course,
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 2: that international body, including China, have been very critical of
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 2: us and of the United States of America for operating
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 2: outside of the system. But America's like, they came out
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 2: with very forceful statements saying, we've never been part of
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 2: that system. We've been a consistent objector to that system.
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 2: We have a legal right to be able to go
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 2: and collect these metals. 169 countries all agreed to be
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 2: bound by those set of rules that you can't even
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 2: agree on. So why don't you just keep doing whatever
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 2: it is you're doing and we'll see you out there.
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 1: It's good to hear. Yeah. It's good to hear that
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 1: we're doing that. It is. It is.
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 2: And the administration have been amazing, ranging from the regulator, Noah,
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 2: Secretary Lutnick. We were lucky to have a lot of
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 2: people that the president chose in his who we knew
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 2: well when they were in opposition. They'd been big supporters
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 2: of ours and they'd written letters on our behalf and
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 2: lobbied Congress to make funding available to do studies on
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 2: processing here in the United States. And so, you know,
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 2: it's all of our stars aligned all of a sudden.
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break. When we come back, I
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 1: want to get into how this concerns national defense. Summer's here,
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  Speaker 1: and we want to get into some national security stuff
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  Speaker 1: and the implications of this and what it would do
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 1: for national security. And I know we covered some of it,
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  Speaker 1: but I just wanted to revisit that I'm big on
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 1: national defense and something I talk about a lot here.
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 1: So I'd like to just go into more detail on that.
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 1: So how is this going to help our US's national defense?
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 2: Well, as I mentioned in 2000 and since 2002, we've
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 2: lost so much of the manufacturing industry. We've lost millions
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 2: of jobs. We've lost hundreds of billions of dollars of
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 2: annual GDP. And I think all of a sudden, when
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  Speaker 2: you realize the reason we've lost them is because we've
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 2: exported those industries, because it was very convenient to outsource
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 2: to the developing world heavy industry, because it was a
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 2: little bit dirty. And this was before some of the
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 2: greener pollution controlling controls became statutory. But it also makes
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 2: you really vulnerable. The fact that you can't build a
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 2: ton of steel without manganese means that, and the fact
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 2: that we import 100% of our manganese puts you very vulnerable.
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 2: And I think it was a great initiative that the
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 2: president wants to bring back shipbuilding. And if you think about,
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 2: you know, what turned the Second World War, it was
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 2: America's Navy, right, at the end of the day. And
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 2: they were able to build ships efficiently. And now ships
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 2: don't get built in America. You know, they're built in
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 2: other parts of the world. And so I think national
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 2: defense and national security is a, It's a very complex,
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 2: intertwined network of you've got to have desire, you've got
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 2: to have really strong partners. And it so happens that
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 2: because China dominates the... If they don't dominate mining, they
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 2: certainly dominate all of the processing and refining. So it
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 2: means that... I gave you that example of one town
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 2: we visited where China went from zero to 70,000 people
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 2: in less than a decade. They control 70% of the
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 2: nickel market. And they play the long game. They're playing
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 2: with the classification standards. They're playing with the IMO standards,
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 2: trying to put in place initiatives that would become very
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 2: expensive for the shipping industry, but only they can supply
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 2: the equipment. We saw Secretary Rubio come out and stamp
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 2: on that the other day. I was very pleased to
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 2: see that. So it's very complex and they're very smart
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 2: and tactical, the Chinese. And you asked before, does America
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 2: have the will and endeavor to fix this? And I
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 2: think the trend of this administration does. They see the
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 2: problem and they've got people in power who see the
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 2: problem and they're putting in long-term strategic fixes. I know
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 2: in our case, we've had many meetings become a frequent
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 2: visitor to the White House because they are making it
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 2: very clear that they want to support us to come
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 2: and build processing capacity on USA soil. But they also
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 2: recognize that Capital needs to be available to do that
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 2: and when you're competing against a country like China where
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 2: capital is Freely available from the state Then you've got
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 2: to have something equally Enticing from US government to encourage
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 2: it as well So I think that Building a reliable
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 2: supply of all of these critical minerals and including rare earths.
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 2: We saw them do a deal with NP the other day.
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 2: It was a smart deal. I think we've heard from
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 2: the administration that they're going to do more deals like
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 2: that because they want to see investment on the ground.
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 2: They want to see jobs created. There are so many
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 2: good knock-on benefits like we talked about before, bring jobs back.
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 2: And I think giving people purpose and is another benefit
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 2: that's going to come out of this, you know?
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 1: Well, you know, what's interesting, a couple of things that
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 1: are jobs I want to talk about, but, you know, you,
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 1: you had mentioned the, the shipbuilding, you know, that, that
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 1: used to take place in this country and that a
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 1: lot of things seem to be coming back with this administration.
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 1: In fact, I, I, are you familiar with the company Saronic? Yes.
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 1: You know, Dino Mavrucas, he's doing the autonomous surface worker,
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 1: surface warfare vehicles. And, I mean, that guy is... It's
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 1: awesome what he's doing. And, you know, I remember... I
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 1: don't remember the exact stats, but, you know, I remember
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 1: him telling me that China had over 50% of the ship...
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 1: of the global shipbuilding capacity. And that the U.S. had
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 1: less than 1% of shipbuilding capacity in the world.
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 2: And.
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 1: You know, and he's trying to change that and he's
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 1: making these boats that, you know, they're, I mean, he's
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 1: gonna pump them out at record pace. And so I'm
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 1: sure your metals company is gonna be able to, you know,
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 1: enable them to make them even cheaper than what they
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 1: already are doing. And hopefully we can get back to being,
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 1: you know, some type of a naval superpower with many boats,
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 1: not just, you know, 0.1% or whatever it is, 0.0, 0.5%.
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 1: I can't, it was less than 1% of the, of
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 1: the US shipbuilding capacity. Another question that I have for
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 1: you though, is are any of the metals that you
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 1: are mining in the ocean are getting ready to mine
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 1: in 2027? Do those, will those play any type of
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 1: a role in the computer chip business?
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 2: I mean, we do, we do have a lot of
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 2: rare earths in here as well. Um, we don't recover
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 2: them in our first, uh, plant. We, we, um, But
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 2: there is a plan to recover them. And of course,
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 2: there are a lot of the cobalt. And of course,
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 2: copper is used in that entire AI space extensively, will
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 2: be used a lot. And so yes, is the answer.
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 2: I just want to go back to that shipbuilding because
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 2: one of the exciting things about some of these industries
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 2: is that when China started taking these industries away from
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 2: the US and other countries, they had a big workforce.
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 2: Farmers were becoming non-farmers or peasants were looking for other
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 2: industry jobs to move into. And so they were happy
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 2: to use a very available, cheap, abundant labor force. But
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 2: of course, a lot of things have happened since then
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 2: in the automation space. And the shipbuilding industry is a
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 2: really good one to look at. If you look at
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 2: what Hanwha and Hyundai and the other Korean shipbuilders have
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 2: done is they bought a lot of automation into those industries.
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 2: And the same is going to be on metal processing.
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 2: That now with automation, you can take some of the
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 2: dangerous jobs away and what you end up doing is
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 2: just generating a lot of GDP for local economies. So
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of direct jobs, but there's an enormous
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 2: amount of indirect jobs that come as a result as well.
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 1: But also, it.
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 2: Means that you can compete because you're not having to
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 2: compete with, you know, 100,000 almost free labor force. You know,
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 2: you're actually competing for on a technology basis. And once again,
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 2: China have been amazing at building and deploying technology at
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 2: a rapid rate. But the West and America are starting
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 2: to recognize the need to do that. And when it
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 2: comes to, certainly, critical minerals, they've made it very clear
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 2: that they're going to make the capital available to encourage
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 2: and entice. We took a big investment from a company
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 2: called Korea Zinc recently. They're in many metals other than zinc,
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 2: but they have a rich, long history. And outside of China,
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 2: they're one of the only companies that can produce the
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 2: pecan materials using their own technology. And so it's a
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 2: really important partnership for us. And in fact, their chairman
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 2: and I attended some White House meetings a couple of
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 2: weeks ago. And they have moved their position. They've moved
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 2: it primarily because of the Trump trade strategy. Their view was,
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 2: we've already got a recycling business here. It's not working
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 2: because China's underbidding us or outbidding us for all the
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 2: recycled material, which is another strategy China's very smart at.
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 2: They're like, we'll overpay to get it, to get them
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 2: out of the country and send them back to China.
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very clever. It's very clever. But I know
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 2: that a year ago, you know, Careers, Inc. would not
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 2: have contemplated building here in the USA. But now, along
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 2: with us, they are very keen to bring their expertise
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 2: and turn it into jobs on the ground and local
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 2: supply chain. And, you know, that, of course, is the
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 2: beginning because it spawns many, many other industries. When you
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 2: have available supply of these metals, then you can look
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 2: at all of the ancillary industries and, you know, my
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 2: standard presentation, there's like 1,000 other industries that can be
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 2: built off that other industry. But if you don't have
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 2: the material, and then, of course, if the government truly
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 2: have these dumping reviews that are underway at the moment,
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 2: if they truly do impose some sort of penalty over importers,
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 2: it's not just China, there'll be other players as well,
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 2: dumping material into the US, then if that can all
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 2: be sorted out, then you're going to see a very,
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 2: very vibrant industrial, re-industrialization go on here. And, you know,
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 2: and I think everyone wants to trade with the USA, right?
• 1:33:16
  Speaker 2: And so America will go from import replacement to becoming,
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 2: under our plan, the biggest supplier of nickel and cobalt
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 2: and manganese and a big exporter of it as well.
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 2: And so it's a massive turnaround and that's going to
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 2: lead to tremendous GDP growth. It's going to lead to
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 2: new companies being formed, new jobs being formed, new industries
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 2: to support those industries. It's a massive knock-on impact and
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 2: But it's only possible if you've got the kahunas to say,
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 2: this is how we've got to turn this around. We've
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 2: got to get things back on a level playing ground.
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 2: And yeah, I got to tell you, when President Trump
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 2: started talking tariffs, it was like, it's going to be
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 2: interesting to see how this plays out. But I got
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 2: to say, it's working out pretty well. It's working out
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 2: pretty well.
• 1:34:19
  Speaker 1: When you say, that new companies will be formed from
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 1: the new industry that you're creating right now. What kind
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 1: of companies do you envision popping up around this?
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 2: It's not just what companies, but it's the efficiencies of
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 2: redesigning new industrial process. And if we think about manganese,
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 2: for example, there are two ways of treating our nodules.
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 2: You either dissolve them in acid or you use heat. Now, actually,
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 2: because of parts of America's abundant supply of affordable energy,
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 2: which is ironic, right? I mean, energy is the cornerstone
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 2: of a healthy, industrializing economy. You need energy. And of course,
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 2: that's why parts of Europe are de-industrializing, because they're They
• 1:35:20
  Speaker 2: can't compete. But America has it, so it's a great,
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 2: great starting point. And that's why America will be able
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 2: to compete with countries like China as well. CapEx is higher,
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 2: but the government recognized that, so they'll make it easier.
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 2: But operationally, actually, you can compete, largely because energy is
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 2: abundant and affordable. But when we use heat, we generate
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 2: energy really hot. I mean, the furnaces go up to 1200,
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 2: 1300 degrees Celsius. And as that material comes out, it
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 2: cools down again. But then when you go and use it,
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 2: you've got to heat it back up again. So one
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 2: of the immediate opportunities is to be able to use
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 2: it when it's still hot. And you save all the
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 2: energy of it cooling down, and you avoid having to
• 1:36:17
  Speaker 2: spend energy heating it back up again. So there are
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 2: opportunities to build adjacent industries near where we are to
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 2: be able to use those materials in their current form.
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 2: But if we then look at manganese, what else is
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 2: it being used for? Well, it's used in water purification.
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 2: It's used in fertilizer. It's used in batteries are now
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 2: moving to a manganese-rich battery cathode. So it used to
• 1:36:43
  Speaker 2: be very high in nickel. still is, but it's now
• 1:36:47
  Speaker 2: starting to use more manganese and less nickel because manganese
• 1:36:50
  Speaker 2: is cheaper. So all of a sudden, America could be
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 2: very competitive. And we've already produced our first, it's called
• 1:36:56
  Speaker 2: manganese sulfate, which goes into a battery. So we've been
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 2: working on that for some time. There's no real magic
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 2: to doing it. You've just got to do it. But
• 1:37:07
  Speaker 2: at the moment, there is zero industry. And to make
• 1:37:11
  Speaker 2: manganese silicon, we import 100% of that in from China
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 2: at the moment. But to be able to build that
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 2: right next door to a reliable supply of manganese is
• 1:37:22
  Speaker 2: more jobs. We don't make much stainless steel here in
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 2: America because we don't have the, we import the iron ore,
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 2: we import the nickel, and we import the manganese. So
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 2: all of a sudden there is a pathway to be
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 2: able to generate that. You know, the material that goes
• 1:37:45
  Speaker 2: into the stainless steel and the steelmaking industry. It's like
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 2: all of these things are very interconnected. And then when
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 2: it comes to nickel, I mean, firstly, it's a super alloy.
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 2: So you need it for, you know, in these beautiful
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 2: planes that we see the US Air Force flying around.
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 2: Nickel is a vital ingredient, as is cobalt in those structures.
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 2: But there's a lot of simpler industries You know, whether
• 1:38:15
  Speaker 2: it's energy-related businesses, solar. In fact, I have a page
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 2: on one of my presentations. There's literally a thousand industries that.
• 1:38:27
  Speaker 1: A thousand industries?
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 2: A thousand that depend on... on nickel, cobalt, manganese, or
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 2: copper as an important import. And I think, because at
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 2: the end of the day, one of the great things
• 1:38:42
  Speaker 2: we've learned from people like Elon Musk is how to
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 2: get in and drive cost out of processes. He'll He'll
• 1:38:50
  Speaker 2: look at things and go, well, the bill of materials
• 1:38:52
  Speaker 2: says $ 100. Why am I paying $ 5, 000 for this? And
• 1:38:58
  Speaker 2: of course, that's what's enabled him to build rockets and
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 2: cars and everything else much more economically. And then, of course,
• 1:39:03
  Speaker 2: he's a great manufacturing genius. And so I think we
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 2: receive inspiration out of that as well. And I think
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 2: there are many, many efficiencies that when you start focusing
• 1:39:17
  Speaker 2: on and re-industrialization, The fact that we exported it all,
• 1:39:22
  Speaker 2: and as I mentioned before, more than 20,000 companies have disappeared,
• 1:39:28
  Speaker 2: more than 2.5 million jobs have disappeared in the last
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 2: 20 years.
• 1:39:32
  Speaker 1: 2.5 million?
• 1:39:34
  Speaker 2: 2.5 million jobs have disappeared from the manufacturing sector in
• 1:39:41
  Speaker 2: the last 20 years.
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 1: Jeez. So the amount of jobs this could create is really...
• 1:39:49
  Speaker 1: unfathomable with all the new industry that could this.
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 2: I think I think the opportunity is a lot more
• 1:39:55
  Speaker 2: new industries those two and a half million jobs might
• 1:39:58
  Speaker 2: come back at a lower number right because of automation
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 2: and other things but it's about GDP growth as well
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 2: and that GDP growth will lead to more industries around
• 1:40:07
  Speaker 2: it it's about direct jobs and indirect jobs and so
• 1:40:14
  Speaker 2: I think that's the exciting part for the American economy
• 1:40:18
  Speaker 2: and You know, a reliable, affordable supply of these critical
• 1:40:24
  Speaker 2: minerals is the beginning of a great era, I believe,
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 2: for the United States.
• 1:40:32
  Speaker 1: I think you're right. I think you're right. When it
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 1: comes to the refining of these things, how fast will
• 1:40:42
  Speaker 1: you be able to turn that into a usable product?
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 2: Well, the good news is... The approach that I have
• 1:40:49
  Speaker 2: taken is to bring partners in who can help speed
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 2: that up. So for example, I mentioned a company, Allseas,
• 1:40:57
  Speaker 2: who have worked with us on the offshore. And Allseas
• 1:41:02
  Speaker 2: employ many thousands of people. For 40 years, they've been
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 2: laying pipe for the oil and gas industry in the
• 1:41:07
  Speaker 2: deep ocean. So they're used to 365-day, 24-hour-a-day operations laying pipe.
• 1:41:14
  Speaker 2: It's magic to see. They built the world's biggest production vessel.
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 2: They build a boat that can lift 30,000 tons at
• 1:41:20
  Speaker 2: a time. So instead of decommissioning an oil platform at sea,
• 1:41:25
  Speaker 2: which they used to take apart piece by piece, they
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 2: build a boat that allows you to cut the legs off,
• 1:41:30
  Speaker 2: lift it, bring it back to shore, and then do
• 1:41:32
  Speaker 2: all of that deassembling there. Much safer and much faster.
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 2: Takes risk out of it and danger out of it
• 1:41:39
  Speaker 2: for everyone. So they bring all of that expertise to
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 2: help us on the offshore. And the same is the
• 1:41:46
  Speaker 2: case with the onshore. We've been working with a group
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 2: in Japan called Pacific Metals. But more recently, we took
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 2: this big investment from Korea Zinc. And Korea Zinc want
• 1:42:00
  Speaker 2: to come to America. They want to put infrastructure on
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 2: the ground. They also are the world's biggest antimony producer
• 1:42:07
  Speaker 2: and a very large gallium producer as well, which are
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 2: two critical minerals needed here in the United States. So
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 2: they bring a lot of strategic importance as well, but
• 1:42:19
  Speaker 2: they can help us build much, much faster. And, you know,
• 1:42:23
  Speaker 2: the Trump administration are very committed to taking away the
• 1:42:26
  Speaker 2: permitting challenges. And I think for construction and approval, and
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 2: I think that's where the red tape has really slowed
• 1:42:34
  Speaker 2: things down. So, you know, there's been desire, but there's
• 1:42:37
  Speaker 2: been so many people who need to stamp the page.
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 2: And I think there are, Tremendous efficiency. Palantir, of course,
• 1:42:45
  Speaker 2: have really helped perfect that as well. We were talking
• 1:42:50
  Speaker 2: to those guys about how they could help us streamline
• 1:42:54
  Speaker 2: that whole permitting process. And they've been very successful in
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 2: other industries, and they can help us in our industry.
• 1:43:03
  Speaker 2: And so much quicker than we could do it by ourselves. Production,
• 1:43:09
  Speaker 2: I mentioned 2027. We've already got our first boat. So
• 1:43:13
  Speaker 2: that's good. And I think it's probably a four-year window
• 1:43:18
  Speaker 2: to put processing and refining infrastructure on the ground here
• 1:43:24
  Speaker 2: in the United States.
• 1:43:25
  Speaker 1: So 2031, you think?
• 1:43:27
  Speaker 2: I hope sooner than that. I hope sooner than that.
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 1: When you say 2027 will be the first actual successful
• 1:43:38
  Speaker 1: mining operation, how fast do you see that scaling? Does
• 1:43:44
  Speaker 1: it start with one vehicle?
• 1:43:46
  Speaker 2: It does, yeah. It does, unfortunately. But already this morning,
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 2: I'd been on the phone with Allseas. You know, we're
• 1:43:54
  Speaker 2: mapping out, you know, how do they build more scale?
• 1:43:57
  Speaker 2: And I held a strategy day in New York on
• 1:44:03
  Speaker 2: August 4, and we had the owner of Allseas, Edward Harrimer, there. And...
• 1:44:09
  Speaker 2: we asked the question, like, what's the appetite? Do you
• 1:44:12
  Speaker 2: want to have a fleet of these boats out there?
• 1:44:14
  Speaker 2: And he's like, yes, we want a fleet of these boats.
• 1:44:17
  Speaker 2: And that's what we want as well.
• 1:44:18
  Speaker 1: Love to hear that. Yeah, yeah. Love to hear that. Yeah.
• 1:44:22
  Speaker 2: And, you know, you get the first one done, you know,
• 1:44:25
  Speaker 2: and the strategy we've adopted at the Metals Company is
• 1:44:31
  Speaker 2: we don't want to be the boat owner. There are
• 1:44:34
  Speaker 2: people who are really good at owning boats, you know,
• 1:44:36
  Speaker 2: and they make a business out of it. Whereas what
• 1:44:41
  Speaker 2: I want to be is focused on the permitting, owning
• 1:44:44
  Speaker 2: the resource, letting contracts out to companies who can come
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 2: and collect our nodules for us in return for long-term contracts,
• 1:44:54
  Speaker 2: and owning part of the processing onshore, and then very
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 2: much in the marketing of those materials into the marketplace
• 1:45:06
  Speaker 2: because I I'm absolutely certain that when people see the
• 1:45:11
  Speaker 2: lower environmental and human benefits of ocean metals, they're going
• 1:45:16
  Speaker 2: to want to buy products that are made with these metals. And,
• 1:45:20
  Speaker 2: you know, remember that great campaign, Intel Inside, that they
• 1:45:23
  Speaker 2: used to run? You should buy a computer with an
• 1:45:26
  Speaker 2: Intel chip. I think it'll be the same when it
• 1:45:30
  Speaker 2: comes to our ocean metals because we can measure every
• 1:45:33
  Speaker 2: single thing. We can guarantee whose hands have touched it.
• 1:45:37
  Speaker 2: We can tell you how much CO2 was generated. We
• 1:45:41
  Speaker 2: can tell you how many trees we felled. Zero. We
• 1:45:44
  Speaker 2: can tell you how much child labor we used.
• 1:45:47
  Speaker 1: Zero.
• 1:45:48
  Speaker 2: We can tell you how much contamination was caused in
• 1:45:52
  Speaker 2: the water tables.
• 1:45:53
  Speaker 1: Zero.
• 1:45:53
  Speaker 2: And once we start measuring and making these commitments, other
• 1:45:57
  Speaker 2: people are going to be forced to do the same.
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 1: Or they'll go out of business.
• 1:46:03
  Speaker 2: Or they'll be limited to where they can sell the product.
• 1:46:05
  Speaker 2: They'll sell their products into markets where people turn a
• 1:46:08
  Speaker 2: blind eye, but that won't be in the United States
• 1:46:10
  Speaker 2: of America.
• 1:46:11
  Speaker 1: Well, they likely won't be able to compete either because
• 1:46:13
  Speaker 1: you'll drive the price of these metals down.
• 1:46:16
  Speaker 2: I think that's a realistic expectation that prices can go lower.
• 1:46:24
  Speaker 2: You know, if you can deliver efficiencies in the way
• 1:46:28
  Speaker 2: you handle these materials, because in years to come, There
• 1:46:33
  Speaker 2: won't be many people on these boats.
• 1:46:37
  Speaker 1: Now, Jerry, we're wrapping up the interview. And so my
• 1:46:40
  Speaker 1: final question is, you know, I bring a lot of
• 1:46:43
  Speaker 1: innovators in here and there's some amazing companies that are
• 1:46:47
  Speaker 1: coming to fruition right now in the U.S. And almost
• 1:46:54
  Speaker 1: all of them have been private companies. And so is
• 1:46:58
  Speaker 1: this a company that people can invest in?
• 1:47:01
  Speaker 2: So we're a public company, and our ticker is TMC.
• 1:47:06
  Speaker 2: We're listed on the NASDAQ. And it's fun being a
• 1:47:11
  Speaker 2: public company.
• 1:47:13
  Speaker 1: Is it?
• 1:47:17
  Speaker 2: Some days. Some days. I mean, there's been some dark days,
• 1:47:25
  Speaker 2: but the days have been a whole lot brighter since
• 1:47:28
  Speaker 2: November 6th, put it that way. And, but look, we,
• 1:47:34
  Speaker 2: you know, we, look, it's, I think it's, it's an
• 1:47:42
  Speaker 2: amazing place to invest your money. It's an amazing company.
• 1:47:46
  Speaker 2: At the beginning of a new industry, you know, we've
• 1:47:50
  Speaker 2: got a really loyal group of shareholders, you know, the
• 1:47:53
  Speaker 2: key shareholders own just under half of the company. Our
• 1:47:58
  Speaker 2: retail brigade, shareholders are an absolute army of loyalists we've
• 1:48:04
  Speaker 2: got a growing list of institutional shareholders and and we're
• 1:48:09
  Speaker 2: going to form perform a very important part in reindustrialization
• 1:48:13
  Speaker 2: you know and we're going to be wearing that badge
• 1:48:17
  Speaker 2: very very proudly so.
• 1:48:19
  Speaker 1: Well Jared, I love what you're doing. It's good for
• 1:48:22
  Speaker 1: the planet. It's good for the country. It's bringing jobs back.
• 1:48:26
  Speaker 1: And it's not good for China. And I love that. So,
• 1:48:30
  Speaker 1: thank you for coming, and I wish you the best
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 1: of luck. And I can't wait to see what happens
• 1:48:35
  Speaker 1: in 2027. Yeah, thanks, Sean. Thank you.
• 1:48:36
  Speaker 2: Cheers.
• 1:48:52
  Speaker 1: No matter where you're watching Sean Ryan Show from, if
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• 1:48:58
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• 1:49:04
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• 1:49:07
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