Latest / Drive with John Perlman / How will Rise Mzansi fix issues in 702 land? Lukhona Mnguni, Joburg Rise Mzansi Mayoral Candidate

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How will Rise Mzansi fix issues in 702 land? Lukhona Mnguni, Joburg Rise Mzansi Mayoral Candidate · Drive with John Perlman

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Let's focus our attention now once again on one of
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: the political parties that is after your votes and keen
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: to take up prominent positions in local government around South Africa. Today,
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: it is the turn of Raiz Mzansi. And for the conversation,
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: we're joined by Lukona Mguni. who is the Joburg mayoral
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: candidate for that party, Reis Mzansi.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: Mr.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: Mgudni, welcome and thanks very much for giving us your time.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: I'm looking at your manifesto. A tightly run government making
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: sure that money hits the mark is a central thread
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: through this manifesto, as it arguably is for many of
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: the parties. But I want to ask you about this.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: You say, we will insource workers who permanently service municipalities
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: and pay them fair wages. Outsource contracts will not be renewed. Now,
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: I get that some of those contracts have been ineffective,
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: that there is undoubtedly an upside in many regards to insourcing.
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: But I'm wondering about the value of a one size
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: fits all approach. Surely, if you're looking for value for money,
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: there may well still be, if the scrutiny is close
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  Speaker 1: and careful, some outsourced contracts that actually do deliver the
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: city value and free up money to spend on important things.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: Good afternoon to you.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: Good afternoon to you, John, and good afternoon to your listeners.
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: Always good chatting to you. Well, look, I mean, let
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: me just make practical examples for the benefit of the listeners.
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  Speaker 2: You don't need to outsource grass-cutting contracts because you'll always
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: need to grass-cut. You don't need to force people into
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: precarious labor at Pikitap, for example, where there's been an
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: issue with casualized workers because of the outsourcing. And those
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: casualized workers, some of them have been casualized for eight years.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: I've spoken to a worker there, John, who not only...
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: is outsourced, but because, pick it up, the contracting model
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: of the trucks, contract out the trucks, but then you
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: keep some of these casualized workers moving from contractor to contractor,
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: and one worker moved from a previous contractor into a
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: new contractor, and their income was slashed from about 10,000
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: rands to 5,800 rands. And yet a person who is
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: employed in the city full-time and is paid who's doing
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: the same work on the same truck in the same
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  Speaker 2: truck as the other one is being paid about 18
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  Speaker 2: 000 rands with benefits and all of that so we
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  Speaker 2: do need to make sure that the ct1 employs people
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: in a in a dignified way and people work and
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: are not underpaid but also we make sure that the
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: contract the contract you are quite correct the contracting The outsourcing,
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: if there were to be value, but John, what we
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: know from analysis, whether it's charity, whether it's whatever, people
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: are actually underpaying the workers who are permanently needed by
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: the city and taking away a lot of money through
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  Speaker 2: this contract, siphoning money and not giving value back to
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: the city.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: So, I mean, you know, possibly the sweet spot would
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: be to examine them all on their merits and if
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  Speaker 1: there is a way of, for example... Let's just stay
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: with the waste removal system to insist that if you
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  Speaker 1: do get a contract from us because your business case
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: is sound, that would need to include a set of
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: labor conditions that match those of the city. But let
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  Speaker 1: me go to another example of what perhaps on a
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: similar theme, Mr. Nguni, and ask you this. You say
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: no privatization of critical state assets. I mean— First of all, examples, please,
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: of these assets. But secondly, why not? Again, if this
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: can deliver greater value for the taxpayers' rand and rate,
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  Speaker 1: why wouldn't you consider privatization if the case made for
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: it was compelling?
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  Speaker 2: Well, John, let's talk about water, which privatization of water
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: assets in Bolivia led to a revolution. And that's simply
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: because when you privatize, you then remove the city from
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: being able to set policy to give incentives or waivers,
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: particularly for indigent households. There is no company, private company,
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  Speaker 2: that is, in its first and foremost logic, wanting to
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: make profits that's going to worry about indigent households. And therefore,
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: your social packages as a city that you currently have
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  Speaker 2: to absorb high costs of living, high costs, of receiving services,
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  Speaker 2: particularly for poorer households and pensioners, you will not be
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  Speaker 2: able to have control over that and that will mean
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  Speaker 2: that people will be priced out and then suddenly they
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  Speaker 2: will not be able to receive something as basic as
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  Speaker 2: water and that cannot be a fair proposition. And the
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  Speaker 2: reason why we keep inviting privatization is because we look
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: at problems through the prism of state failure. And yet,
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  Speaker 2: as Ryzen's answer, what we are emphasizing, we are the
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  Speaker 2: new leaders that are going to build a capable state.
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  Speaker 2: We are the new leaders that are going to restore
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  Speaker 2: sanity into government. We are the new leaders that the
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: residents can bet to have their services delivered by a
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  Speaker 2: government that works for everybody and does not leave poor
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  Speaker 2: people behind because privatization of those assets, critical assets of
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: the state, of the municipality will leave poor people behind.
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: So let's talk a little bit about another aspect of
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: the city that is often in the news. You talk
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: about people who are street traders, small traders who are
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: selling fruit, vegetable and other things. You say we will
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: end arbitrary harassment and stock confiscation by directive from the
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: first day in office. Law enforcement will be pointed out.
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  Speaker 1: at violent criminal syndicates and extortionists, not at honest people
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  Speaker 1: earning a living. Two-part question. Surely law enforcement can and
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: must do both, i.e. deal with a problem you highlight there,
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: but at the same time enforce bylaws. And then secondly,
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  Speaker 1: I mean, the problem that some people have with street
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  Speaker 1: trade is, is not just coming from the city, but
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  Speaker 1: people who are paying rent in competing businesses are saying, listen,
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: you know, people cannot get to our stores because the
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: pavements are as crowded. I mean, I understand your desire
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: to say this doesn't have to be rough and clumsily,
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  Speaker 1: but would you not agree that the current situation with
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: informal traders has to work for everybody and not just
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: the traders?
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  Speaker 2: You know, John, I was at the market in Sentin
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  Speaker 2: yesterday and... Literally, yesterday or the other day, days moved
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  Speaker 2: too quickly. Literally, there were informal traders inside the mall.
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: As you walk inside from the Tasha's side across from NetBank,
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  Speaker 2: inside the mall, the floor space for us to move
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  Speaker 2: as patrons, very much disturbed. Does anybody complain because it's
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: being organized at the mark? So the question is, how
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: do you ensure that the city again... works for everybody,
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: and you're quite correct. Our call is that JMPD or
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: the Metro Police or by-law enforcers must have a culture shift.
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  Speaker 2: Rather than a punitive act, they must be much more
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  Speaker 2: helping people to comply. And John, by the way, there
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: is a court judgment from Eteguini municipality in the Devon
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  Speaker 2: High Court from many years ago. One of the things
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  Speaker 2: that that court judgment said is that when this confiscation
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: of people's goods, particularly fresh produce, happens, The police don't
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: take an inventory. And then when a person complies and
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: they are going to look for their stock, they can't
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: get their stock back, which then means that the police,
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: in actual fact, are creating double tragedy for the very
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: same person who did not steal those goods. And as
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: you're saying, they stole the fruits from Joburg market. That's
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: a different story altogether. But we must, and New York,
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: by the way, did this a long time ago, where
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: the NYPD was actually forced to go around carrying pamphlets
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: on how to help informal traders to comply rather than
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: to harass them away from trading.
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: I want to just deal finally with one of the
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: points you make about infrastructure. And you say, for all
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: new infrastructure, we will plan for a design life of
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: 80 to 100 years rather than the next budget cycle.
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: It sounds wonderful, but I'm wondering where you got the
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: figures of 80 to 100 years. I mean, what in
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: the design stage can you say with certainty is going
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: to last that long?
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: It's the material, for example, take the problems that we
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: have with some of our pipes in the city of Joburg.
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: Those pipes are as old as 1930. They've reached their lifespan.
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: They were sunk in to last quite a substantive lifetime,
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  Speaker 2: and this is why you are having, particularly in the
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: older neighborhoods, a lot of pipe pests. The problem you
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: are having in the newer neighborhoods where the bulk infrastructure
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  Speaker 2: was laid down much, much later than that is shoddy workmanship,
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  Speaker 2: is cheap material that is being used, is material that perhaps...
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: will not withstand the next wave of climate changes and
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: all the kind of planning that we need to ensure
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: that we envisage for the future. A resilient infrastructure that
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: is climate resistant, climate disaster ready, particularly given the patterns
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: of disasters that we are seeing. Seismic shifts in the
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: city of Joburg are becoming quite a common occurrence Therefore,
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  Speaker 2: whatever that you are utilizing in terms of material must
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: be able to withstand that. So an 80 to 100 lifespan,
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: lifecycle for public infrastructure is a good lifecycle. It's not
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  Speaker 2: just an arbitrary number that we have, but it also
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  Speaker 2: means that you are able to plan into the future.
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: in terms of reinvestment, recapitalization of that infrastructure. And if
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: you have good people and good stewardship over your finances,
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  Speaker 2: you shouldn't have major disruptions as we currently do with
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  Speaker 2: our infrastructure. And now we've got these backlogs in the
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: city of Joburg, for example, 220 billion rands, because there's
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: been over time systemic neglect and lack of understanding of
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: the nature of aging spends and lifetimes and lifespans of
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: the infrastructure that you currently have.
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Lukonem Guni representing RISE Mzansi. He
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: is that party's Joburg mayoral candidate. 702 Drive.