Latest / Skin Anarchy / E.364: Understanding The Brilliance of Branding Ft. Nancy Poller

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E.364: Understanding The Brilliance of Branding Ft. Nancy Poller · Skin Anarchy

• 0:00
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• 0:47
  SPEAKER_02: I am really excited about this episode because it's a first-time look into this area of the beauty industry.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, this is really for a lot of you entrepreneurs out there because I know there's a quite a bit of you that are in our listenership.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you'll really love this episode.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: So without further ado, I want to introduce you to my guest of honor.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_02: She's truly, you know, an expert in this field.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm so delighted to be hosting her.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: Nancy Poehler, who is actually, you know, Nancy, you're a creative uh director and brand designer for aligned design and also just an expert for packaging, right?
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: So uh welcome to the show.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for having me.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really happy to be here.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it's such an honor to host you, and I'm so excited to learn from you.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: I I've been really looking forward to this.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: For everyone uh listening, Nancy and I click disconnected, you know, and I was immediately like, we have to get this recorded.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: So I was really excited we're doing this.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I and I want to start us off, Nancy, and talk about really how you got into this area because it's such a unique category, I feel like, when it comes to beauty brands and just entrepreneurship and you know, uh especially like brand development.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: So if you could walk us down memory lane, maybe about you know your career and how everything got started, that'd be great.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I set up um, I was designing and working in marketing in the sort of early parts of my career.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then I decided to go freelance, um, I guess about seven years ago now.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: And um I think when I started out, you know, I was just sort of exploring what areas of design were interesting to me and what industries, and it soon became apparent to me that my kind of obsession with beauty was a really good crossover with design.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I remember my first ever beauty brand that I worked with, which was called Luscious Skincare.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think they're still on Amazon actually, it's a really tiny little brand.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I worked on their packaging and branding, and I just fell in love with it.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: It seemed to flow really easily with the client and me.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I love being able to kind of create packaging mock-ups digitally.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, quite compared to the old is, I guess, really quite easy to see how a pack piece of packaging could look by rendering it on a 3D um image on the screen.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: And and it just really sparked something in me.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I guess from there, you know, from being able to show some beauty projects on our portfolio, I was able to take on more um more clients in that area and really explore my personal love of beauty through my design work, which is the dream, really.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, yeah.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like that's I love that, you know.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: I love that you said that because I think that design is such an integral part of how we consume beauty products.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I don't remember the last time I bought something that wasn't aesthetically pleasing to me.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like it wasn't how many, how many of you out there if you buy a white tube of product?
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: No, you can't exactly it's star central.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: So that's really interesting to me.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, that you brought that up.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I actually want to learn more about the design component.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: So what did you have a formal training in design um before you started, or was it just something that came to you, or you know, how how was that transition into this field?
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's quite interesting really because I don't I don't have a traditional um kind of background in design.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I I'm largely self-taught.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: I I kind of learned on the job and through um training courses that I did myself, and I think I I realized quite early on when I was doing marketing and events that I had this inkling that I wanted to do design.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I took courses outside of um you know work and started doing passion projects and designing all sorts of things like stationary things um to learn to learn the principles, you know, lots of reading and um following inspirational people.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, largely I've kind of learned it that way rather than through the traditional route.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I feel like that's honestly like I feel like there's a lot of benefit to that route.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a huge, like firm believer in experience, is truly queen.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel you know the what you can learn through trial and error is like I think the most, the closest you can get to like the scientific method or the you know, just an approach that's very, very, you know, involved, right?
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_02: So like it, I really like that actually.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm glad that you you have actually you know shared that because for all of you listening out there, you know, you don't have to think that you have to go to school for the exact subject that you want to end up in.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: There's so many like young professionals nowadays, Nancy.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like they just try so hard to find that perfect major or that perfect, you know, and it's just like you don't really need that, you know.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: No, exactly.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I almost almost, yeah, I agree with you that there's sort of sort of something quite freeing about learning something for yourself because then you're not hindered by how you're supposed to do things.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, you need to know the rules in order to be able to break them, but I think yeah, it's it's interesting to be able to explore design almost with a clean slate rather than thinking, oh, I have to put my margins at this place or I have to do this, I have to have this structure and almost kind of be but more instinctively led.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right, no, absolutely.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_02: Now, you know, I want to ask you because I'm a huge, like, I mean, I guess you could say just I love art, you know, I've always loved art.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I think um that really kind of plays into my consumer habits when it comes to beauty products and especially skincare products, you know.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I look for like packaging, like when we're talking about packaging, right?
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_02: We have so many like personal preferences in terms of color, in terms of, you know, the material that it's coming in.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_02: And now the double sustainability movement, there's so many like check boxes, I feel like, for consumers.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_02: And so I really want to get like your like kind of, I guess if you could give us like a 101, you know, back like a walkthrough of what your strategy or approach is when a brand comes to you and says, I want something that's gonna really hook my consumers, you know.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so what do you, what's your process?
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what do you go through to really kind of deliver that or to understand what they're talking about?
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_02: And what are the design um, you know, I guess inspirations that you really tap into when you're working?
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I always say that you kind of have to start with the brand foundations.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: So even though you know you want to get to that point where you've got this beautiful piece of packaging in your hands, you have to go back and take a step back and look at your brand almost from a strategic point of view and from a point of view of what do we want to communicate with this piece of packaging, with this piece of design.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do we want customers to feel when they pick it up or when they see it on the screen?
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, who is it that we're trying to attract?
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: What would you know, a lot of the questions that we ask during the discovery process with a new client is things like what your ambitions are for the brand and in your dream kind of scenario, what retailers would stock your products, um, and very much about the story as well, and and where that brand is coming from in terms of the founder's own passions.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that all informs kind of how it needs to look and feel, and then it's from that point that we start thinking about colour and materials and kind of start mood boarding around how we can then start valuing.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's like yeah, it's it's tempting to sort of go on Pinterest or whatever and start, you know, kind of magpieing all the beautiful ideas, which is great, but but it's much easier and more defined if you can start from that kind of more informed point of view.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_02: No, I think you know what that's a really interesting point because I won't lie, you know, I think um consumers, and I've actually tried it.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_02: This is like more uh clarifying for me because I've tried to make this point and I haven't really been able to articulate what I mean.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_02: But I feel like when we are buying things, right, as consumers, we are like this subconscious process is going on where we're almost like connecting with the personal style of the founder and the entrepreneur who made the products.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_02: Because you're you're right, you know, the packaging is always reflective in so many ways of the person behind the brand.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_02: And that's such an important, I think, concept for consumers to understand because this is where I think it gets really, really interesting in terms of marketing, in terms of, you know, what really drives us to buy things, what you know, all of these different areas, right, that we we study and we have analytics about.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I and I, you know, I want to give you an example.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like I remember, I don't know if you've seen the brand, but it was um Noble Panacea.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's a skincare brand.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember, like, for me, like I'm a science geek.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: So when I saw that brand, it was very geometrical, like the packaging.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_02: It was very like just, oh my gosh, I just fell in love with it.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it just reminded me, it brought me back to a place of when I was first training, you know what I mean, and science as a scientist.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_02: And it was like these kind of things that really interest me about packaging, you know.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so I want to ask you, like, you know, when it comes to putting that personal touch in and personalizing something that's so complicated, right?
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: How do you really like what are the starting points for that?
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that must be a really hard task to like have a starting point.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's it's something that comes up on up almost every time.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: And there's the question of how much of you as a founder needs to go into the branding.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: And um I think it's a it's a balancing act really because we do want we do want that ingredient in there, but equally we don't want the entire brand to be based around kind of you know, what is the founder's favourite colour, or you know, how it's a bit like you might paint your kitchen yellow, but your yellow might not be the right colour for your packaging.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: So we've got to we've got to think about the whole picture and um not just what personal tastes are, but what's right strategically, what's what feels right, what's gonna you know match the price point of the products and make it feel if it's a high-end product, it needs to feel high-end, if it's more kind of approachable and accessible price-wise, then you know you can think in different ways about how you package it.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: So um, yeah, there are a lot of different factors that go into that um phase, and then we kind of condense it down into the vision for the brand and how we see that looking and feeding, and a little bit around um the words and how it's you know, what the voice should sound like and uh and things like that.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: That's really interesting.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I and I'm actually curious, like, how does it work when you finally like you design something, right?
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: And then you know, you have to actually bring that to life.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_02: So how does that work when you're like sourcing the you know, the materials that you're you're gonna need, or you know, finding somebody who can really actually manufacture the packaging?
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, how what is that process like and what really goes on behind the scenes there?
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so typically um we don't actually get involved in sourcing the containers and materials because that's kind of a whole other area that that um brands have to navigate.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: But we what we do is kind of advise in terms of from the options that are available, what fits the brand best, you know, what do we envisage?
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: We're working with a brand at the moment, um, and all their products are in these lovely white sugar cane bottles, um, so very sustainable, and so we know we're working with those, they've already got those in their line, so we're kind of then designing around that container, whereas with a new brand, we might have a lot more um scope for choosing a new kind of um container or bottle or jar and what that's made of and what colour it is and what kind of weight it has.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: So we're very much sort of advising um you know on what would fit best.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously, the founders often have their own um ideas and what they might be able to source.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: Because obviously, if you're a small brand starting up, you know, you've got to think about the the MOQs and um you know what you can source to launch your products if you're not launching with hundreds of thousands to begin with.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, no, I'm I mean that's interesting to me because I'm just wondering like how that works for a founder, because it's like, you know, what if they come up, what if you guys create this amazing design for them and then it's like crap, like where am I gonna get this manufactured?
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like how am I gonna yeah, like have you ever had those conversations or like how's how's that?
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: So what we do is we that's one of the questions that we ask right at the beginning because we've got to know what our kind of limitations are that we've got to work within.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um I can think of this particular brand that we worked with where we had a vision for beautiful kind of um glass bottles with a gradient colour where it sort of started with a beautiful kind of pastel gradient, um, and then as he went down the bottle, it sort of faded out.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um and we at the time, I think the founder was under the impression that she could get, you know, that anything we wanted to design, we could they would be able to manufacture with their partners, and it was all great.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: And then it turned out that she had more restrictions, more limitations on that than than we thought.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: So then we had to kind of think around it, okay, how are we going to make this happen?
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: And and we still managed to create that using um labeling and printing the gradient onto a transparent label, and then the transparent label would sit on the glass, and it looked amazing, it looked really great.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: So sometimes there is a bit of experimentation around um you know how we achieve what we want to achieve, but generally speaking, like you say, it makes more sense to start with what our options are, like you say, rather than create something amazing and then they need to go and get a mold done or something that's gonna make it um you know out of scope.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, I mean it it that makes sense.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I I was just thinking that I was like, gosh, like imagine creating the most gorgeous packaging.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: That was quite heartbreaking.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like you just absolutely I actually this makes me think of uh Joy Spinelli.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: I recently interviewed her, she's so phenomenal.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and her new line that just came out like basically skincare for uh like people who love makeup, you know what I mean?
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so one of her products is an actual, like it looks like an injection, like a shot, you know?
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like and and so um I was just so enamored by like the design aspect of that, you know what I mean?
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_02: Because I was like, this is very cool.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: And then I was like, how the heck do we get people to make this, you know, like manufacturing?
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: Because it's such a cool design.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: And and you know, this really actually leads me into asking you, and I don't know if um you guys deal with this or not, but I know with skincare brands it's a huge conversation around packaging, makes a big difference, like in terms of is it airtight, is it you know, sealed off correctly, is it exposed to too much light?
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: Are there filters in the you know in the materials?
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: So does that come in for you on the design end when you're like you know analyzing the stuff?
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I mean, on this, in terms of kind of the protective qualities and the ceiling and all of that sort of thing, that is again, we're we're looking at it from a design point of view, so we're very much led by the founder themselves um in terms of making sure it works in a practical sense.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but obviously we need to be aware of things like, for example, we've been working with an aromatherapy company called Clarity Blend, and they have um their products are in these beautiful glass sort of apothecary-style bottles, um, and they need to be dark to protect those because the oils are very pure and very fresh.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: So they need to be this sort of brown dark colour in order to protect it.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so we know that with that brand that we're working with that style of um container, and that's really informed the design throughout working with them because um obviously certain styles that we come up with might not necessarily work on a brown glass bottle.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: So we've we've designed a really colourful brand for them, loads of beautiful rainbow colours so that they stand out against that dark glass.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um so yeah, it definitely is a partnership in that way, and we're working with them to kind of come to the right um result that takes into account all those practical considerations as well as you know, what's going to look the most beautiful and the most eye-catching?
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_02: That's very interesting because I speaking of eye-catching, I want to actually ask you because I've always been curious, like, you know, there's the there are so many like giant retailers, right, for beauty products and like skincare products and whatever, you know, in this realm, whatever's in this realm.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I always wonder like, do retailers have like guidelines for like what your packaging can look like, or is that not really an issue?
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: Because I I feel like when I go into like a Sephora or like um, you know, like a Target, like there are some underlying like um, I guess commonalities in a lot of the packaging designs, you know what I mean?
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's like either like the shaping or the way that they're just I don't know.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I is there or am I just like imagining it?
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: No, I don't think you're imagining it.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's a store over here um in the UK called Superdrug.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I guess it's probably like the equivalent of of Ulta that you have that's kind of like a drug store, and you definitely get a sense with each shelving area that there's a theme design-wise.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it's quite interesting to look at, for example, I was looking at their Afro Hair and Beauty section because we have a couple of clients that have products in there, and I was looking at how it all sat together, and there is like it tends to be quite vibrant, and it tends they tend to be quite similar bottle shapes and styles somehow.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: But I wonder whether that's almost something that's developed organically over time because brands see each other, don't they, and kind of get influenced by other designs in the market?
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, has that developed organically or has the store kind of deliberately grouped them together?
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting to think about it that way.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, because like I think of like stocking and stuff, like you know what I mean?
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like the the things they have to stock the the the products, you know, is there a certain shape that fits in, or you know, do you have to stick to certain parameters?
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's just an interesting area because I, you know, I think that it's definitely something that, you know, I if I were to start a brand, I think that would definitely like deter me away from being in a retailer.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like I feel like it would be like almost like hindering, you know, to the creative capacity of my design or the packaging.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like, you know, when I look at brands, I'm not gonna lie, as a consumer, it's like, oh great, you know, another clear bottle, you know, another, another like, you know, dropper or like, and it's just like there's a certain like level of enthusiasm that comes with like, you know, um opening a really cool packaging, you know, and just like experiencing that.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like, you know, I want to get your opinion on that.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like, really, like, you know, um has there have there been any like cases where you've been working with a client and you're really trying to push that envelope and you're like, you know what, you really gotta, you gotta go and just take the leap.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_02: And they're like, oh, I don't know, or you know, anything.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: That has that ever come across your desk or um well there's a couple of things that spring to mind.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: One one is when we were working with a brand in the early days, um there was the reason they approached us actually was because the feedback they were getting from the retailers was that the branding needed to be better and the packaging needed to be more um refined.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: And even though at the time it was quite a simple design, they had a white bottle with quite a simple kind of um text on there.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: The retailer feedback was that it needed to be more vibrant, it needed to have more personality and look um look more thought through.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um so that to me, you know, it was interesting to hear that it they weren't necessarily going for that really play look in that in that case.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um and yeah, from the point of view of kind of the shelf appeal of packaging as well.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I do think it's it's quite easy to sell the benefits to the client of what the packaging needs to look and feel like because once you've actually designed something and shown it to them, you know, they they then start to see the possibilities, and it's quite an exciting step for them to actually see you know something that we've been developing with them come to life in a mock-up and they can look at it and go, Yeah, that's my brand, that's how it's going to look.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: This is how you know five of our key products are going to look together on the shelf, and it it almost is that little bit of alchemy of bringing it to life that helps them see where it could go.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't haven't really had much of a challenge, I guess, because probably because you know, we've got that that step in the process where you can see where it's going.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and obviously, you know, at that point where we've started to mock up the packaging and can then come back and say, okay, can we tweak this element?
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: Or you know, I don't think the logo is quite visible enough, or you know, this colour doesn't feel quite right.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: So just refining and tweaking to make sure everything, you know, is quite perfect before it actually starts going to print.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: But um, but yeah, I guess we've been lucky that that the clients that we work with often are really involved in the creative process and really love that part of it.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: They often say it's you know the most exciting, one of the most exciting bits because they get to be creative and kind of really get involved and get stuck in.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_02: No, it makes sense.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I I just I just find that to be like I feel like packaging is such a like it's just like this like gray area, you know what I mean, for me, because I'm like, yeah, the design is there, but then the the logistics of the design, and there are just so many questions that like come to mind immediately with packaging.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I just I just find it to be so intriguing, you know, in terms of like how it's evolving, how it's changing.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, nowadays, like you see almost every type of I feel like design, like I especially like when you think about like, for example, I don't know if you're a big um architecture, you know, enthusiast or not, but I've always really loved like architectural digest and like just really just you know, even just through travels, you know, just like really looking at um shapes and angles and stuff.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like especially with beauty brands, it's so cool to see that aspect almost like kind of overlap because I I swear some of these people are like architects, like you know what I mean?
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_02: Have like architects, yeah.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: I I agree with you though.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think I'm definitely someone who's inspired by what's around me, and and often kind of in London we're lucky we've got lots of beautiful buildings we can go inside and look at, and kind of workspaces that feel really elevated, and you can draw a lot of inspiration from those things.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's a place I go and work, sometimes called homegrown, and it's really opulent inside, and you've got kind of bright yellow walls and the staircases all kind of carpeted in black and white, and you can just sort of get so much from being in those surroundings, and with probably without even realizing it, being inspired and kind of just squirreling away little ideas that probably come up again in the creative process somewhere else.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: No, I mean, like I it's definitely interesting, and I think that you know, like I just design for me is such a it's a it's a beautiful, beautiful um field because it's you know, just there's endless possibilities and there's endless sources of inspiration.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I like that leads me to wanting to understand it a little bit more because you have I mean, you know, for me, I come from a scientific background.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: So we have to cite everything, we have to reference everything, we have to like my papers have bibliographies that are like eight, you know what I mean, like longer than the actual paper.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I'm actually curious from your perspective as a design um professional, where um if you do get inspiration from something, right?
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_02: And say it's something that's already out on the market, it's another product, maybe in another industry, do you have to in any way like contact that that like source, whether it's a brand or whether it's like, I mean, whatever it is, or and like you know, kind of give them credit, or does that not really apply?
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if there's any rules or regulations about this stuff.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_02: That's why I'm asking.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, I think um so the way that I work is I am often inspired by it could be, you know, a piece of packaging from a food product.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: It could, I'm often noticing like craft beer labels, they're amazing and things like that.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I don't think you would necessarily need to sort of contact a brand unless you wanted to directly use an element or kind of yeah, I which I don't think you would necessarily want to do.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think the inspiration process for me is more much more loose than that, and I'm kind of pulling together loads of different sources, and it might just be, oh, I love the colour of that.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: Let's see if we can work with you know one little colour from one piece of packaging, and then I might be looking at five different typography styles from somewhere else and a shape from over here and a pattern from over here.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: I just almost then you will then you're creating something new that takes inspiration from all over, but it's definitely a new thing.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's um does that make sense?
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, it definitely does.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_02: It definitely does.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_02: I think that it's it's just so interesting because, like, you know, and and really the reason I asked you is because um, for example, there was this, I swear, there was like three months where every skincare brand, I kid you not, was coming out with those like cool little globe things, like with the little handle.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, wait a minute.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember like freaking out because one of the founders I'd interviewed, like they were very, very cool.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, just I loved that.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_02: I it's the first time I'd seen it, you know what I mean?
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: Their brand.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I was just so excited about it.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_02: I remember recording the podcast and like just raving about that little globe, you know, and how I can I can put it in the fridge and it works great for me.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_02: But then, like, you know, two weeks later, I interviewed another brand and they had the exact same thing.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_02: It was just more, you know what I mean?
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_02: And it was like it made it like really kind of worried me.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, Did she just did they get their idea stolen?
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what happened here, you know?
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so, like, I get really, really confused there because it's like there are redundancies, you know what I mean?
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_02: There are so many redundancies, and not just the packaging itself, but also the the utilization, right?
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_02: Because a lot of the a lot of the things are tools, like in skincare, like skincare tools, you know what I mean?
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_02: So, like, you know, how how do we like really work with that?
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I don't know.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_02: I I really don't even know like how to pose this question to you because it's it's so I feel like when I see that, like when I see two products that look almost exactly the same, I'm like, why has this been made?
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I feel like there should be some sort of like a not a patent, but some sort of license, like for whoever comes out with it first, like you get royalties on it, you know.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, 100%.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: I agree with you on that.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's interesting.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: And with like the dupes market, you know, there are there are obviously companies that are making dupes of there's one over here that makes kind of very similar products to Joe Malone, um, drunk elephant, and the packaging isn't the same, but it's obviously supposed to look and remind you of it.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's crazy that you can do that.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: That there's no regulation to stop that happening.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um that's crazy, especially especially in the EU, because I know that like you guys have way stringent criteria, like especially with like ingredients, like you know what I mean.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_02: So it's that's interesting.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_02: That's interesting.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_02: There's nothing, there's no regulations around that.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: No, it doesn't seem to be, or or if there are, there's kind of people very cleverly circumventing them, maybe.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, it always surprises me.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, I actually want to like, you know, I guess a follow-up question would be for me is like over the years, like what have you seen as like, I guess it's not trends, but like just I guess the evolution of just you know, really how brands approach redesigning themselves, you know, and reprogramming their whole aesthetic, you know, like is have you seen like a certain trend come up or like a certain, I guess, direction that people are now like, you know, entrepreneurs are like, well, I would like to go in this direction, or is it like how does that work?
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: Because I feel like there is this, you know, it almost like subconscious movement all the time, you know, with like, well, now we're moving into the more like you know, futuristic style, you know, and every brand is going to start doing that now.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: So how does that, I mean, from your perspective, how has that looked over the years, you know?
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think one of the ways this is really interesting is with the indie beauty movement, I've noticed bigger brands um kind of adopting some of the styles of indie beauty brands and was making some of their ranges look more approachable or a bit more indie somehow.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: I was thinking of um, I was looking at the Clarens um stand in one of our local stores, and they've got a range for, I think it's for teens, and it's much more fun feeling than the kind of more scientific feel that you associate with clarens.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's got more colour, it's got more kind of the shapes of the bottles, um, got more curved edges and things like that.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I've noticed a few um instances where the the bigger brands have felt like they're introducing all their kind of tying into um how smaller brands feel because there's definitely an appeal about the smaller brands or the startup brands where you know you're discovering something new, you can you can know a bit more about the story of the founder and what's behind that product, you can often get more personal attention or personal service from them.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: So those sort of advantages that you get from an indie brand, and because indie brands are getting bigger and more important in the market, I can see that aesthetically coming in more and more, which is interesting.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm interested to see how that develops.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um the other one I think about, sorry, go ahead.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, go ahead, go ahead.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_02: I was just listening.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um I was just gonna say the other one I think about a lot is the kind of really minimal black and white trend that I don't think is ever going to go away.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, like I think Herbivore and um by Redo and those brands that were among the first to do the incredibly stripped back branding where they've just got a beautiful bottle with a black and white label and not much else on there.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: There are so many brands that have emulated that.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's a really beautiful look, but I also worry that there's not enough to distinguish them from one another, and they need more elements to kind of just make sure they're they look like themselves rather than all looking homogenous, sort of thing.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, that's it's definitely interesting.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the black and white thing, I'm not gonna lie, I think it's like the it's like the safety zone, you know, like you can't go over with packaging, I feel like um it's chic, it's you know, it's sophisticated, it looks really nice.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, I mean, I totally get that.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, one thing actually, there's a brand I really want you to see.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think you're gonna love it.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I was so like I, you know, it's not very often that I'm like really like shocked by amazing packaging, you know what I mean?
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_02: Because like I think everyone's just doing something that's very similar.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_02: But this brand is called Euthoria, and it was founded by a uh young lady on TikTok.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like she's an influencer, she went into the beauty space, and her packaging is so cool.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_02: And she actually was telling me when I was interviewing her, she was like, Yeah, you know, it was actually inspired by a lot of the people that follow me.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_02: So, like there was this whole thing that she did where she like put out like a call to her followers and said, Hey, send me ideas, let's brainstorm.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_02: And she came up with this cool idea where it's like a little platform, like basically the brand is like there's like a little, like, you know, I don't know if you guys had this, but we had like polypockets and like those little toys, you know, that we played with when we were kids.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I swear this brand reminds me of that because it's like a little platform and has it's magnetic, and you can put the lip glosses and they magnetically attach to the platform, but each of the lip glosses, the tops of them also have the magnet, so you can stack them up.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_02: So like it's like a you change, it's it's just the coolest freaking concept.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, did she come up with that?
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like, that's so unique, you know.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like I didn't before.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_02: And she was like, No, I didn't have like a design or anything.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_02: I just, you know, I reached out to my, you know, my followers.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_02: And so I guess, you know, I'm curious, like, when you're doing your research, right?
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_02: And you're doing your homework on on what approach you want to take, how does that really fit in in terms of like um, you know, doing that homework of what people are attracted to in terms of what's what's the latest thing that people are gravitating towards?
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what does that analysis portion look like from your side of things?
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's really interesting.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I had seen you through, and I it reminded me of Legos, you know, the little blocks, and that I think one of the things that's really appealing about it is a lot of brands, you know, they subconsciously tap into that childhood selves that we have, or where things are really simple and our toys were really simple.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: And there is that crossover, I think, with beauty and playing and playfulness and things, which I think works really well with that brand that you just mentioned.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, to so to answer your question, um we we tend to kind of talk a lot with the client about who their customer is at the moment.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: So who is buying from you at the moment, or if you're a new brand, you know, who do you think would be your target market?
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: But digging into that from quite a personal point of view, so rather than looking at kind of demographics from a broad point of view, more digging into like we create what we call a customer muse, so almost inventing a person and going quite deep into that person and what motivates them, or it might be two or three people, and really um, but they'll they'll be based on uh existing customers or existing Instagram followers, um, and what really motivates them and who they are and what they're like, so that we're getting we almost feel like we've got a personal connection with that fictional customer, if that makes sense.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, it absolutely does.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like I think that's you know, I mean, that's very interesting because I think nowadays, especially everyone, you know, has a social media account, they have some sort of a following, you know, before you come up with it.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_02: And so I feel like, yeah, there's definitely um, you know, a lot of feedback, I think that people are entrepreneurs are exposed to even before finding a brand.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it it's just interesting to me to see that evolution, you know, of like, okay, you come from you know what you want, but then especially with something like design and packaging and stuff, it's like wow, it's like a community effort, you know, it takes a village kind of thing.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it's really nice sometimes when we're looking at you know, two options on something.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: Occasionally clients have shared those two choices online and and taken votes on, you know, which colors you prefer or and it's really interesting to get that feedback sometimes it's not what you think it will be.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_02: No, I mean, I it just it's just so fascinating to me.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's just like a this area of I guess beauty and branding and everything.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's just so I don't know, it's just very, very like, you know, you there's endless possibilities and there's just so space for like refining what we're doing.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I was talking to, I mean, for everyone listening before the you know, the recording started, Nancy and I were talking about just sustainability and stuff like that.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, yeah, you know, with this whole sustainability movement, you know, like there's so many other demands that are coming up, you know, out of the woodworks in terms of this packaging should fit this idea and this I these ideals and these, you know, theories that we have.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_02: How can we really limit our, you know, just waste and all of those things, right?
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like, I just find it so intriguing how that is so influenced by like, you know, professionals such as yourself, which are the artists, you know, because like we always look at that from a standpoint of like where are the ecologists or where are the people who are like you know, creating the carbon, you know, whatever it is, like you know, that they're using these days.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_02: But it's like really, if you think about it, it's like really the the design is so integral to that movement, you know, to the sustainability movement, if you know what I mean.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's a really interesting area as well because we're seeing often in some areas of beauty that the design trend can be quite minimal, like we're talking about, but also quite earthy, like the brown bottles I was talking about with the aromatherapy brand, or there's a candle brand that I like, which puts all the candles in glass, and then they have wood and lid on, and um it's almost as though they're going hand in hand.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: So brands are thinking about well, how can I make my packaging as recyclable as possible using as little plastic, for example, or as little, you know, non-recyclable materials as possible, but that almost has the added benefit of the fact that it you know it feels really nice, it feels lovely to have something in glass or wood or you know, even the sugar cane, something new that's innovative and sustainable.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and aesthetically that fits in with this feeling that we want to ground ourselves and you know, not necessarily keep consuming product after product.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, maybe you might eventually offer refills of your products in if you've got glass or um things like that.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's interesting how that all evolves almost naturally as these conversations happen more and more.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, no, I I think it's just really, really interesting.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I think there's a lot to be learned.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot to be learned from so many different angles, you know, not just for people who are focused on sustainability or focused on these movements, but also from just consumers, you know, and our expectations, because I feel like consumers have such high expectations, and it's just sometimes like we need to understand like so much goes into the branding of something, you know, and from a design standpoint, there's a lot that goes in, and then you have to add in the you know, all the frills and you know, all the things that we care about, you know, like sustainability, uh, you know, biodegradability, all that kind of stuff.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_02: So I just find it to be very, very intriguing, you know, overall, definitely.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it's like you say, there's so much to learn, and I'm sure, you know, all the time people are coming up with new materials and new ways of doing things that that make products more and more um, you know, kind on the earth.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I think.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's great.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, and I want to actually, as a round out question, ask you for some actual like insight and words of wisdom, I guess you could say, Nancy, for all the young professionals listening in that are, you know, they're into design and they want to maybe go into this field, like anything that you can offer for just, you know, some clarity or some guidance.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_01: For for designers themselves, yeah.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think that design is like a passion career, isn't it?
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, a lot for careers probably formulating skincare is another passion career.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I think if you feel really drawn to doing it, like find a way and go for it.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because for me, doing something I you know, getting up every day to do something I really love and get excited about is just the best thing.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think yeah, there are ways to get into design that aren't necessarily, you know, like you say we talked about earlier, we don't have to have done our master's degree in graphic design.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, obviously, you need to learn how to do it, you need to learn the rules in order to break them and so on.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but there are lots of ways into the industry now.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I also think, you know, when when I'm looking at um hiring people for certain jobs or hiring creatives to help out on projects, I'm not necessarily looking at their experience first, I'm looking at their work and what what stands out to me about what they've produced, what inspiration has gone into it and the quality of their work, not just what their background is or where they've worked.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's quite good now that you know there's lots of online um forums and places where you can post your work.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: There's a I don't know if it's in the US, but there's one over here called The Dots, which is a really nice platform where you can post your work.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_01: Things like Beehance and Dribble, um, Pinterest, and you never know who will see it and who will resonate with your work.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I do think that it's a lot of it is that style and finding the right match in terms of clients and employers that your creative style um fits with and not trying to fit your style into what somebody else um you know thinks is right because I think with creative work, I would always rather somebody have the freedom to explore what they want to do creatively and how they want it to look and feel rather than feel boxed in, you know, because that's where that inspiration comes from.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um love that.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_02: I really love that.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's that's definitely like you know, truly, truly like solid advice.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you know, it's it as an artist, I can imagine just getting swept away with your own vision, but yeah, you're right, like you have to really focus, and you know, I just have so much appreciation for all of you designers out there, like humans, you know, it's just so much beauty and just you know, value in what you create, and just you know, I appreciate it so much.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_02: So um thank you.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I want to uh just give a shout out to everyone listening in.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_02: I hope you enjoyed um this intro to packaging design with Nancy.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_02: I really, really enjoyed um, you know, just bringing this to you guys, and I really encourage you guys to go check out some of the work um that Nancy's uh company is doing, you know, and and really kind of get a feel of what really goes on behind the scenes.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that's always my goal with this podcast is like really push people, like go check out the people who are making these things happen.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_02: So again, the br the company's name is Aligned Design Uh CO, and I'm gonna link everything in the concept art for this episode.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_02: I really, really would love if you guys uh leave your feedback, leave your comments.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_02: If you have any questions for Nancy or her team, definitely leave them in the comment section and we'll pass them along.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_02: But thank you so much, Nancy.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_02: This has been so lovely.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for having me.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_01: I really enjoyed talking to you.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_02: Likewise.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_02: Hey guys, so I hope you love that episode.
• 48:14
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• 49:19
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