Latest / The Smart Mom's Guide to Divorce / The Hidden Grief of Divorce: How Moms Can Heal and Help Their Kids
Transcript
- Liz: The five stages of grief is a fallacy. That was never intended for the people that were left behind, the bereaved, the gravers. I would tell people, and they all had these range of different emotions. And so at one point, I started telling people I was divorced with like jazz hands because I didn't know how else to like deliver that news. I had the most incredible therapist when I was going through my divorce in the very beginning. She is so dear to me. She was in her 80s. I was terrified that she was gonna die. I kept asking very inappropriate health-related questions, like, do you have a family history of heart attacks? Because I was like, I have to get through this. I think that a lot of people see grief as a sad or an upset thing. And you can hold so many feelings at once, right? Like I can be angry and I can be sad, but I can also be excited about this new journey. Brooke: What do moms need to understand about how grief can manifest? Liz: so grief shows up in children. Brooke: Yes. Hi. Hi. Thanks Liz: Thank you for having me. Brooke: for coming. Yeah. So you are a divorced mom. You have three kids. I do. You're raising them pretty much by yourself. Yeah. After your divorce, not necessarily because of, but you decided to become a certified grief professional. Correct. Right? Yeah. So what do people misunderstand about grief? Liz: What I think people misunderstand about grief is that people are afraid to bring up the elephant in the room, the grief, because they think it's gonna make the person more sad. And the truth of the matter is the person is sad. That's not gonna change. So in what we call companioning, just being next to someone, you don't need to fix their grief. They just want it to be witnessed. So if you're walking alongside someone with grief, you're not trying to lead them, you're not trying to fix it, you're just trying to be there. And I think that with non-death loss, one of those being divorce, that's what we need, right? Is we just need partnership. We need someone to listen. We need someone to bounce ideas off of. I do think that that's one thing that I do miss from being in a partnered relationship is that. I miss having that person like to text back and forth with and to talk and to say, like, this is what happened to me at work today. And what do you think? Should we fix that window? And that back and forth sometimes can be really isolating. Like it is lonely to be by yourself. And I feel like sometimes I have amazing friends. I have incredible family. My sons are like out of this world, the best ever. But I don't want to burden them with some of that. that I just kind of want to toss back and forth with. So I think that that's something that maybe people don't Brooke: Yeah. And I think you're right. Like you don't necessarily need somebody to swoop in and fix it for you. Liz: I think just asking open-end questions is so important. Sometimes when someone tells you, my dad died, your reaction, at least mine is, is I'm so sorry. And instead of saying I'm sorry with a period at the end, just add a comma and open that question up to the other person so that they can kind of relate what they're feeling. So instead of saying, you know, I'm divorced, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry, how are the kids doing? you know, how are you feeling about this? What is this transition like for you? So that that way it's not an end to the conversation. Hopefully it'll be the beginning. Brooke: Yeah. And I think some people might not know the answer to some of those questions and that's okay. Liz: Absolutely. But starting a conversation and making yourself the safe person and someone that is a safe space to kind of share things, I think is really important. And then also honoring their privacy and honoring whatever they decide to share with you is really important too. Brooke: Yeah. Yeah. Somebody had once told me that when you have a friend who's going through something, you can say, Do you need a hug? Do you need advice? Or you do you just need somebody somebody to listen to you? Yeah. Right. And I think we forget that because especially when you deal with divorce, everybody has an opinion. Everybody has a bias. And Liz: Right. Brooke: everyone has some advice. Right. Liz: Well, I ran into so many people that were like, my gosh, you should try my therapist. I was like, Are you you really think that I haven't tried therapy? Like, do you really think they're like, You just need a date night? And like we tried a lot of things before, you know, calling this. So I do think that sometimes not coming with a solution. I'll say to my kids, like, do you want a solution or do you just want someone to listen to you? And sometimes that's what you need, it's just someone to listen. Brooke: Yeah, yeah. I wonder why people feel like they have to offer up advice. And and maybe it it's this fixer mentality. I know that I suffer from that and I'm, you know, I'm I well, I say I'm a recovering fixer, but it creeps in every now and then. Liz: Well, I am like a connector. Like I love to, I may not be able to fix your problem, but I can find a person that can fix your problem. And I love making those connections. And I think that it is not wanting to see anybody in pain. And I think that people see divorce as something that's broken. And it doesn't have to be, right? I feel so much better and so much more myself now than I did. when I was struggling in something that wasn't working. So I don't see myself as like the homewrecker or anything, even though sometimes maybe other people see me that way. But I also have decided that what other people think of me is none of my business. So unless someone wants to come to me and tell me what they feel, I can't control that. Brooke: That is really true. So what was going through your head when you were contemplating, do I stay or do I go? Like how was that process for you? Liz: I think it really was the off-ramp kind of thought process where it was decisions that were being made where I was like, if I follow this road, I'm gonna end up somewhere I don't wanna be. And so I didn't wake up that day thinking this is the day I'm going to, you know, wreck everything that we and, you know, end almost 21 years of marriage. I think it was more of I I I got a glimpse of what was ahead of me. And I said, I can't. This is where I've got to get off. And so I and it was of course the worst possible time, right? You know, it was the end of year. So like the kids were almost done with school. I had all of these volunteer responsibilities I had signed up for. And so it was not the optimal time to be like, today I'm gonna turn my life upside down. But I think that It was just that vision of where I might end up. And I was like, I can't be there. I this is just not where I wanna be. So I decided that this is what was gonna happen. And I made some phone calls and had some really difficult conversations. And that was the beginning of this like brand new life. Brooke: Yeah. And I think too, like, you know, as moms, we can't be our best self to our children if we are not happy. And you can stay in an unfulfilling marriage for years. But what are those things that you what are you teaching your children? And and I, you know, I'm gonna be very clear here. I am not an advocate of divorce. Liz: No. Brooke: comes with a lot of challenges. Right. But these are just things that I think, you know, women and men need to to consider. It's like, what are we teaching our kids? And how are we showing up as our best self if we are not in a fulfilling relationship or if there's, you know, if there's things going on, or even if there aren't things going on. Right. Liz: do think that a lot of people came to me when I said I was getting divorced and said like what happened? And at first it felt very critical. And I felt, you know, it's like, why are you coming up to me like we're not even that close and asking me these like really personal details. But I think that I started to realize for some people, it was them asking for themselves. Like how far did it get before you were like, this is enough, I'm out. Because I do think that some people are like, well, I'm not super happy, but I do enjoy having a partner, having a two income household, having the stability for my family. Where was your out? And it is so different and so unique for everyone. And I also know that everyone has a different support system. I am so lucky to have incredible friends, an incredible family and my children. But I also felt really isolated because no one else in my really close bubble was divorced. So I did go out looking on Facebook for better or worse and said, you know, I'm a single mom. Is there any divorce groups in the area? And I found this like really incredible group of women that made me feel empowered. They made me feel safe. They made me feel like they understood what I was going through and I felt heard. And that was what I really, really wanted. Because even though my friends and my family were there for me and supported, they didn't know exactly how it Brooke: Yeah. And I think for any kind of grief, whether it's, you know, a death loss or a non-death loss, like divorce, you know, having people around you that understand what you're going through, even if the specifics aren't exactly the same, it's the feelings, right? It's it's all those feelings that's important. Can you talk about just, you know, from the grief perspective? Liz: Yeah, from the from the grief perspective and also in a lot of just what we're processing, there is a tier of how much help people really need. So on the very basic level and the most broad, like the you know, 70% or something, I don't remember the precise number. the broadest number is just people that need someone to listen to them. So that is your friends, that is your family, that is people that you meet. And then the second tier are people that need a little bit more connection. And those are like groups and you know, being around other people that have experienced the same thing. And then that very top tier, which is less than 10%, is people that actually need a therapist or a more intense program. And so I think that when we see everything that people go through with loss, with non-death loss, you need those connections to help you process what you're going through. So it doesn't always have to be therapy, although I think therapy is incredible. so you know, you can really be helped in other ways. But I had the most incredible therapist when I was going through my divorce in the very beginning. She is so dear to me. She was in her eighties. I was terrified that she was gonna die. I kept asking very inappropriate health-related questions, like, do you have a family history of heart attacks? Because I was like, I have to get through this. and if if there is something else that like another ball that drops, I don't know how I'm gonna do it. So she I I love her so much and I hope that she is still fine. Brooke: So if she has to cancel an appointment you're like my god is Liz: Okay. Yeah, yeah. I was really worried. Like one time she walked in, she's like, My hip is bothering me. I'm like, what can we do? Can we get you in for an agenda? Brooke: No. Liz: So yeah, her health was is still very, very important to me. Brooke: my gosh. I love that story. That's awesome. So okay. I I would love to know one of the things that I, you know, admire about you is you are raising these three boys on your own. But yet you have so many friends. You're in a book club, you volunteer everywhere, you're doing the the grief work that you do. you're in a a support group for moms in divorce and like helping other moms through it. You have so many friends, you're so well connected. Like, how do you do it? Like and why? Why do you do this? Liz: The connection is the key. I love to be around other people. I get energy and I just get, you know, from those connections, I think it is so important. And I love giving back to the community. I feel like that I have learned so much from the people that are in the different volunteer opportunities. So when I first this was years before my divorce, years before, Any of this had occurred. A friend of mine was a director of a children's bereavement program in our area, in our community. And she asked if I would want to volunteer. And the important thing in working in bereavement and volunteering and things is it doesn't really matter who you are. That is not, you are a person that is along on this journey with them. So you don't really share a lot of personal details. You are just kind of like an entity that. absorbs what's going on with them. So seeing these families that had been really wrecked by grief opened my eyes. And I think that a lot of people see grief as a sad or an upset thing. And you can hold so many feelings at once, right? Like I can be angry and I can be sad, but I can also be excited about this new journey. I never wanted to be a divorced person. But now that I am, I find empowerment and I find positivity and I feel like my children see me in a different light and I'm okay with that. And I can, you know, mourn the death of something and still be optimistic about other things, other parts of my life. Brooke: Yeah. And that's absolutely so true because when you're in the beginning and you're in the thick of it, and maybe you are like me hiding in the bathroom in your bedroom with the door shut and locked, sobbing. Right. Like I think a lot of divorced moms know this feeling, right? Where you are just like, I'm gonna find the closet or the place where my kids will not find me and I am just gonna let it out because You know, the world that you knew is gone and it is so frickin' scary. Liz: And it can be so abrupt. Yeah. Right. I mean, I looked for resources. I had, you know, looked generally at different divorce attorneys before this all happened, but it all did happen so suddenly that it was a real shock to my system. And I think that the first six months, maybe the first year, I it felt like I was in a daze just trying to like walk through to to work. To make sure that the kids had their lunches, that everybody had clean clothes to wear. and looking back, I did have those like really tearful moments. And I don't know if this is good or not, but I used to just say to my kids, like, Well, I'm just tired, you know, I'm just tired. And so I remember one of my sons saying, You're just tired all the time right now. And that was kind of heartbreaking because you want to be your best self for your kids all the time, but it's okay not to be, you know, it is. Okay to be real in front of them and to tell them, I'm struggling right now. And I know it's gonna be okay, but the struggle is real too. Brooke: Yeah, and it is, I mean, it's human and they're going to struggle. And so you're normalizing it, right? You're normalizing it in a way that that they don't need to feel shame because shame is so powerful for so many things. And I mean, divorce is hard enough. Like throw the shame and the guilt onto it. Liz: Great. Brooke: But you know, it it might not even be well placed because we can be we can feel guilt for breaking up the family, but Actually, you could have guilt for keeping the family together when you know that it's not working and it's not healthy for anybody. Liz: Right. And I do think that there are so many people in general that say, we're gonna wait until the kids graduate from high school, we're gonna wait until the kids, you know, accomplish this milestone. And I feel really sad about that for them because if you're doing something that you know isn't real or isn't good for you and you're just trying to hit this marker. I I don't think that I could have made it to one of those milestones. It it just was it wasn't healthy for me. Brooke: Yeah. And it's like who is it who is it good for? Right. Really? Because I think a lot of people, yes. I mean, I I talk to so many people are like, Yeah, I'm really unhappy in my marriage, but you know, I have a I have a sophomore and so it's only a few more years. And, you know, when he's out of the house, then, you know, we're gonna get divorced. And it's like, okay, well, what are you showing him about relationships? Right. Right? Like what is he witnessing? What are his views on marriage? 'Cause now like he's seeing you clearly unhappy. Right. And like w what is the purpose of this? I mean Liz: Do you really think the kids don't know? They know. Yeah. Like I I feel like my kids have seen me at hopefully at my best, but definitely at my worst. Yeah. And I think that they know who you are. And I know that my kids saw moments of my marriage that I wouldn't have wanted them to see. But I think that hopefully them seeing me succeed and thrive. will be transformative for them. And I hope that it will give them strength and, you know, a positive viewpoint of what reinventing yourself can look like. Brooke: Yeah. Yeah. And I I mean, several people have said when they broke the news to their kids, their kids said, What took you so long? I know. Liz: I know. Brooke: And then other ones said, Wait, I thought you were happy. Why have you been lying to me all this time? Right. Right. Liz: I think it is so hard to decide what you're gonna tell your kids about what factors went into to this decision and how you got there. Because on the one hand, my oldest is 20. I still wanna protect my kids, right? and I think that I also don't want to burden them with some of my emotions, but then you also don't wanna be disingenuous. Brooke: Yes. Liz: It's hard to determine how much to share because I am very conscious of not wanting my my children to have to be a replacement parent. And I think that that was something that I also really struggled with because, you know, I did have this partnership where the kids didn't have they had responsibilities, they had chores, but I did ask them to step up more after when it was just me and the household. And everybody was like, you know, the the boys can do more and I agree, but then I also didn't want it to feel like, well, this is because you decided to get divorced. Brooke: Right. Yeah, absolutely. so what did you have to let go of at the beginning of this process? Like the beliefs, you know, fears, thoughts, what what did you expectations, identity, like what did you have to let go of in order to move forward and closer to this person that we see now in front of us? Liz: Well, in grief we talk about the loss of the assumptive world or the loss of the assumptive future. So what you thought was gonna happen, what you thought it was gonna look like in the future. And I think that a lot of my identity was wrapped up in my marriage. I got married when I was 20. So that was a huge part of my life. You know, we were almost at 21 years married when I decided that. We needed to get divorced. I think that what I thought my future was gonna look like, retiring, you know, spending time with my children, having you know, one Christmas instead of two separate Christmases, a lot of that changed. But I think that we've rolled with it. I will also say what I thought my divorced life was gonna look like is not. what it looks like now. Which is kind of surprising because I did think I assumed that my ex-husband was going to be local and right now he is out of state. So I do have my kids the majority of the time. And that's been an adjustment, not because I need time off, but more of just that I feel like I'm always on, you know, it kids need a lot from you, even when they get older. And I have a lot of friends that, you know, go out of town and they have trips with their partner. And my family, my parents live out of state, my sister lives out of the country. So I don't have any super close relatives to help. about a year into the divorce, my middle son had an appendectomy. And that was kind of a surprise because I'm like, my goodness. In the middle of the night, I woke up and I had to take him to the emergency room. So I woke up my oldest son and I said, Stay with the youngest. I'm gonna call you. We'll let you know what's going on. Thankfully at that point, their dad took them for a few days because my middle son was in the hospital for a few days. But I think now, you know, that would be different because I don't have someone that can just roll and pick them up right away. Brooke: Yeah. And I think a lot of people can relate to that because not everybody wants to stay in the same community after the divorce. And Liz: It's not always possible either. So we talk about in grief secondary losses. So there is the first loss, either a death loss or a non death loss. And then there are these secondary losses like the loss of a two income household, the loss of potentially your community. If you have to move out of the home and the community that you lived in as a two income household, that might change. You know, the house that the kids came home from the hospital in. they may not be able to live there anymore. So those are some of those secondary losses and you also have grief related to that. Brooke: Yeah, absolutely. I you know, we would say in the divorce coaching school, there's a lot of deaths, right? There's a lot of deaths that you experience in divorce. And it could be like the death of friendships, you know, of like your in-laws. Maybe you were close to them and then they decided that you guys are divorced and it's too hard for my child to, you know, have me continue a relationship with you or, you know, whatever. So then you lose that. family, you know, your church, right? If somebody's there and you can't both stay there because maybe it's high conflict. Right. You know, there's so many different deaths and losses that people have to experience. And that can be really scary and keep people in limbo for a long time. So from a grief perspective, like how do people navigate that? Liz: It's really interesting sometimes how people in your life will show up because I've heard from a lot of people dealing with death losses. And they said the friend that was like so close and would text me all the time just kind of like faded away. And then other friends that I felt like maybe we had kind of, you know, a a broader relationship kind of really came in close and really were there for me and helped me. So I do think that some friends showed up in ways that I didn't expect. and other friends, I there was definitely judgment from some too. very close friends that are very religious that were like, this is not part of your marriage vows. Like you said better or worse. And I didn't get married, you know, for better or forget it. But I think that it still was shocking to kind of feel like that judgment, especially when, you know, for some of these really close friends, I did share with what was going on. And they were like, Well, you still could have worked through it and maybe, maybe I could have and maybe I could have kept trying, but maybe it would have gotten worse. I don't know. We'll never know. Brooke: And you're only one side of this, you know, or one piece of the puzzle. Right. Right. Right. And you can try and try and try as hard as you want to, but if the other side doesn't want to try and do their part, what are you supposed to do? Like really, you can either accept it Liz: Mm-hmm. Brooke: or you can say, this isn't gonna work for me. Right. And I've got to do something that's better for myself so I can show up and be the best version of myself. Liz: Right. And I do think showing your children what you're willing to take and what you're willing to put up with and what you're willing to walk away from is something that I hope they will see in a positive sense. I hope. I mean, we don't know, but we'll see. I none of us can predict the future. I think that that's something that is really a struggle. So I look back some days and think, you know, would I do the same things? Would I still marry this person? And I think I would. You know, having my children, they're the most incredible gift. Living where I am, doing the things that I've done, it was really hard to get divorced. But I found part of my myself that I didn't know existed anymore. I uncovered pieces of myself that, you know, maybe were braver and stronger than I thought I could have been. it's been quite an experience. Brooke: That is so beautiful to hear. I love that. so I I wanna dive back into to grief for a second because I can imagine that grief shows up differently. It manifests differently in different people. Right. So what what do moms need to understand about how grief can manifest, you know, in adults and also in children? Liz: In adults, I think we kind of understand what to look for or what to expect. I think with kids, it's really, really different. so grief shows up in children in a million different ways, right? Like all of our kids are so different. but a lot of kids have different grief reactions as their lives go on. So maybe there was a divorce or there was a death when a child was very young and the child processes it. However, they can in that moment. But then there are going to be instances where, you know, maybe there's a mom's tea or a dad's breakfast or a dad's dance at school. And you kind of re-grieve those losses. Some of those wounds reopen and you re experience that in that moment. a graduation, weddings, you know, baptisms, things like that, where you might see different grief reactions from the kids. And not all kids. grieve in the same way, we like to say that grief, you know, is all the emotions. You can be happy, you can be excited. With deaths or non-death losses, there's sometimes relief. There, you know, some people sleep a lot, some people can't sleep at all. And people grieve in different ways. There's one type of griever that is very intuitive and they process it and they think through it and they talk through it and they want to talk and talk and talk. And then there are gravers that don't talk as much, kind of shut down. It's very internalized. a lot of times you'll see them get really incredible grades at school or they're playing basketball every day after school. And that's how they're dealing with their grief. And it's hard when those two types of gravers are in the same household because the person that is acting, you know, they're processing their grief through doing doesn't want to talk about it and they'll say, you know, like this other person at home, my mom or whoever, won't shut up about it. And the other person is saying they're not dealing with their grief because all they're doing is they're gone. They're not in the house. They don't want to sit and talk about it. So respecting both types of grievers is really important. Then another thing that we go into is hopefully something I'll pass on in my life is that the five stages of grief is a fallacy. When you go back to Dr. Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, who came up with the five stages of grief, she was actually intending for that to be how people that were given a terminal diagnosis were going to deal with that diagnosis. So they knew they were dying. So they went through those stages of grief. That was never intended for the people that were left behind, the bereaved, the grievers. So there is a loss-oriented phase. That we kind of go into, and then there is looking forward into the future, which is like the restorative phase. So that's Dr. Strobe and Shoot came up with that. And you kind of go back and forth. So there are times when you're kind of contemplating your loss and you're thinking about it and you're doing your grief work. And then you go back over to the restorative, which is thinking about what your future is gonna look like now. So understanding that there isn't a process to go through, but it kind of goes back and forth more like a fan, like an oscillating fan, is how we're gonna continue to grieve in our lives. Brooke: Yeah. And I like to think of recovery from that like a stock market ticker where it just like, you know, you could be up and then down and then up and then down. But for the most part, it's usually trending right up, right? Yeah. Yeah. But there's gonna be peaks and valleys. Liz: Yeah, absolutely. And talking about regraving, I think that graduations for my kids, that's hard because coming back to this person, like obviously my kids want their mom and their dad at graduation and making sure that that is still a celebratory event that you know, hopefully we're not sniping at each other and really kind of committing to this is not about me. This is about my kid and I'm so, so proud of them and that we just get to celebrate them in that Brooke: Yeah. Well, and I I wanna bring this up too because when we talk about grief in children, that's one of the reasons why some people will choose to stay together because they're afraid that the grief that their children are gonna experience is going to lead to maybe, you know, destructive behavior, poor grades in school, even potentially self-harm, right? Like all of these negative consequences. And so they feel like staying in this relationship is better for them. But what they don't realize is it's actually conflict and not the divorce itself that, you know, creates a a larger I don't want to say grief, but it's just, you know, it just can be more traumatic for the kids and have more harmful consequences. Liz: I think our kids are so much more perceptive than we'll ever give them credit for. Kids react to everything around them. They react to conflict. They react to arguments. They react to the positivity. I think that my kids have seen me change throughout the almost five years that I've been divorced now. And I hope that they see me happier. Because I feel happier. This wasn't what I expected for my future, but I think that we have all learned to roll with it. Brooke: Yeah. So can kids act out as part of the group props process? Liz: Yeah. So when you're seeing kids grieve, a lot of them are I wouldn't say hyperactive, but do have big grief reactions. Sometimes we call them grief bursts. So you have a kiddo that just can't sit still in class. You have maybe some self, you know, some destructive behavior. And I think that really taking time for yourself, making sure that your cup is full. So that you can deal with it in the most proactive and kind way is important. There have certainly been times in my life recently where my kids are having fun and they're playful and they're at home. And I say to them, I'm not mad at you, but I'm really overstimulated right now and I need to go into another room because it is so loud in here. So I think giving yourself some grace, making sure that you ki your kids know that. Anything that they are feeling is okay, right? I want my kids to always, always be able to come and talk to me. And I hope that hearing them, whatever they have to say, is going to be welcomed, right? If they are mad at me, I am open to hearing that. If they are frustrated with what's going on, I want to hear that. And I want to be open to having a conversation that hopefully will continue forever. Brooke: Yeah, because you know, somebody can share their feelings and when you validate their feelings, it doesn't necessarily mean you have to agree to it, right? Like I mean, I'm sure as moms we've all been accused of, you know, being mean and awful and terrible and your rules suck and like all these things, right? I can validate that you don't like this and that this is hard for you. Right. But this is how it is. Right. This is how it's gonna be. Well sometimes Liz: Sometimes my kids will say, like, you're the worst mom ever. And I'm like, challenge, accept it. You know, I'm like, I it could be so much worse than this. But I think that making sure that they feel welcome to come and tell me how they feel, even if I don't agree with it. Absolutely is the truth. sometimes, you know, my kids will want to come and tell me, like, school is terrible and this teacher picked on me. And I think that there are times when I try to solve too much. So I'm like, well, you could talk to the teacher, you could say this to your friend. And sometimes your kids just want to be heard, right? All of us just want to be heard. So sometimes I'll say to them, Do you want a solution or do you just want to be heard? Brooke: Yeah. So absolutely. And I think when you give them the opportunity to process it themselves without giving them the answer, that you are actually teaching them how to deal with these things that they're gonna experience as adults. Liz: Right. Brooke: Right. Liz: We're all still dealing with frustrations day to day. So hopefully those skills will be passed on. Hopefully we'll all get better at learning how to deal with Brooke: Absolutely. I also feel like, you know, adults can use anger, right? When you're talking about the five stages of divorce, because I'm pretty sure like anger is one of those five stages. So when you are struggling in a co parenting relationship and your your your ex is just being a dick. Can I say that? Can I say like Liz: All feelings are welcome, right? Brooke: But you know, they're just being a jerk and you know, i is it possible that they're grieving, right? Liz: I think that one thing I really took away from my interactions with my ex was that there was never the perfect argument that he was going to see my side. And I think that someone that I I read somewhere said that my first divorce, she's like, I felt like I had to tell everyone why I was right. And she said by the second divorce, I didn't care what anybody else thought. I was just happy to be done. Now I hope to not be divorced twice, but I do I did take some wisdom from that in being that it is okay to make the decisions that you make, and not everybody is gonna understand your side. And in coming to interacting with my ex, I say, say less. You don't need to explain everything. They're not gonna always be on your side, but my goal. Is just to make sure that I can communicate what I need to communicate about the kids. And then he has his own life now. And so do I. So I don't know what he's like five years later. I only knew him up until that point. He has been through things. I have been through things. We're both probably different people. Brooke: Yeah. Just as you're different people when you got divorced than you were when you were twenty years old. Liz: Absolutely. Absolutely. So I think that we both take things differently, but I think that trying to I think I've given up on trying to fix something that was never gonna be fixed and holding back a little bit. I I think that talking to some other divorced people, they still want that validation from their ex partner. And I think that once you accept that your paths are going apart, they're diverging, that you don't have that connection with them anymore. I mean, we're always gonna be connected because we share children, right? I think that that was something else that was kind of important. So I did a collaborative divorce where both of us had to find collaborative lawyers and for the majority of our interactions, we were willing to agree on most things. So we did set up our, you know, schedule and our agreements with the kids pretty loosely. We made it flexible. There are some things that I wish I could go back and redo, but I think overall it was the least combative, I guess. I don't think that I would recommend collaborative divorce for everyone, but I think that it worked for my situation. Brooke: Yeah. Yeah. And I think you're right. I think a lot of moms want to hear the other person, their ex, take responsibility, take accountability, right? And they and when they're not, it's like they want to convince them of why they need to do this. And at a certain point, you just need to get over that because you know It may never happen and you're wasting your time and your energy. And do you need that really to move forward? Because what if you never get it? Right. Like are you never gonna move forward? Liz: Well, and I also think you're spending energy on someone's opinion that you've kind of decided to part from. So as much as I wanted to be validated, I came to the conclusion, well, I'm not gonna get the validation from him. That's part of the reason we're not together anymore. Brooke: Great point. Liz: So I mean, there is, I think even from like friends that we shared in the past, I I do feel like there is a part of divorce where like, you know, he gets some and the wife gets some. And I've run into old friends that chose my ex's side. And it's interesting to hear from them their perspective of what happened. I don't know. It is. It's always interesting to hear someone else's perspective because you know it's so different from your own. No one's ever gonna understand your story fully. Brooke: And they don't need to. Liz: No, they don't. Brooke: No, because l as you said earlier, two things can be true at the same time. You know, like inevitably your ex husband or ex spouse, right? They can have one way of thinking about it. Like this was my experience. Liz: Right. Brooke: And then you can have another. And, you know, and that's okay. That's okay. Like we don't need to convince anybody. And I I really hope that Women can use that as like a takeaway of like you don't need to convince anybody that you're right. Liz: Right. I do think that that was something that I felt like I had to overex explain myself. Like I had to over-explain what happened, or I had to convince the other people that they would have done the same thing. It was a lot of energy that I probably didn't need to exude, especially in those early days when I was just wiped, you know, in every other way. So I think that taking back some of that energy and taking back some of that time. And just giving it to yourself. I mean, in those early days, it can be really, really rough. And I think that something that I didn't do that I wish I had before was kind of reaching out to a divorce coach or understanding what this process would be like because I kind of jumped off the bridge without knowing what was underneath me. And I think that maybe it would have given me more reassurance to see what my life. was going to look like. And again, you don't know what's going to happen. I didn't expect that I was going to be such a full time mom that, you know, my part my ex partner wasn't going to be as round around. but I think that maybe it would have helped me sleep a little bit better at night, just knowing that I had resources available or having an idea of what my financial future was going to look like because I had no clue, you know. Brooke: And you know, when you're going through it, you're in such an emotional place. And there you know, we have this idea that as soon as you know you want to get divorced, you rush out and find an attorney. And there's a lot of work that can be done and be helpful to be done before that even starts. Liz: Right. I think that having a roadmap of what it might look like for you, maybe it would have given me more solace. You know, maybe it would have helped me rest a little bit easier because jumping in with both feet and not having any idea, not interviewing any other lawyers. I had one person's name in my mind, and that was the person I called, and that was the person I went with. Thankfully, she was incredible. I love her. But it could have gone another way, you know. I don't know. So I think really researching resources, making sure that you're in a safe place, hopefully will give you more to lean on. Brooke: Yeah. I do want to talk a little bit more about the grief work because I think that that's really important. So well, you started doing grief work before you got divorced. I did. Right. So how did that affect like how you talked to your children about it that maybe somebody that doesn't have that background, you know, would do? Like did you do things differently? Do you recognize that you handled it differently because you had that knowledge? Liz: I think because grief is so much part of all of our lives, I don't think I actively knew that I was doing it. But I think maybe one of the things that I can look back and reflect on is that I did try to honor all of their feelings, no matter what it was. If it was anger at me or if it was disappointment or if it was frustration, I wasn't trying to fix any of that. You can't fix those emotions. They just have to be felt. So I think that honoring whatever their process was throughout this divorce was what I was trying to do. I did get them all therapists. You know, they got to choose. I told them that I wanted them to have ownership in their relationships with their therapists. They were able to decide how often they wanted to see them and if they wanted to stay with the same therapist or if they wanted to go with somebody else. I wanted to make sure it was someone that they felt safe talking to. So I also really encouraged relationships I already had, but you know, with like aunts and uncles and parents, that I said, you know, you can tell them things and they're not gonna tell me. I wanted to make sure that they had other safe spaces. So if they had feelings about me or how I was acting, that they were able to express that without any fear. of me having a reaction to it. Brooke: Yeah. Yeah. and you know, I I also want to ask you too about schools, right? Like kids that lose a parent, I'm sure that's communicated, right? Because there could be issues with the child in school. I don't know if everybody thinks to mention, like, hey, we're going through a divorce right now, so my child might be not acting their normal self. So when you work with schools and communities and and parents, what do you share with them about, you know, how much you disclose to teachers and and staff at schools. Liz: It is hard because I do feel like there's this fine line of not expecting them to make exceptions, but still just trying to share that understanding. we have discussed that it would be nice if there was a line on a forum that said, you know, has your child experienced grief or have they had the death of an an important person in their life, just so that the teachers and the schools have that context. It's hard when you feel like you're underwater and your life is flipped upside down to make sure that all the important people know. I remember the first time that I went to the kids' doctors after they after, you know, I had become separated and they said, you know, is you know, is your husband coming? And it was like that shock of like No, not everybody knows, or even running into people that I hadn't seen in a really long time and saying, like, how's your better half? And being like, we're divorced. I mean, it is funny because I said in the beginning that I would tell people, and they all had this like, you know, these range of different emotions. And so at one point I I started telling people I was divorced with like jazz hands because I didn't know how else to like deliver that news. And to be like at the jazz hands like kind of shook them up like they weren't expecting it and it was like surprise. Brooke: There you go. I'm divorced. Liz: and for some people I think, you know, they took it really well. I am by my nature a sarcastic person. And I think that for some of them it was very on brand for me and other people did not know how to react. so you know, that it to know me is to love me, I guess. Brooke: We should all share difficult news of like Liz: With jazz hands. Brooke: I lost my job. Well, and at the same time, y I mean, I've gone places where, you know, I fill out the forum and they say, you're divorced, and I say, Yeah. And they're like, Are we happy or are we not happy? And I'm like, We're happy. Yeah. You know, like it doesn't have to be the end of the world. And you know, and and I say that as someone who could not get out of bed for a while. You know, I would go to school pickup with the sunglasses on with the puffy eyes. You know, I had to go on antidepressants for a while just to get through the day. And, you know, and at the end of the day, it's like, no, this actually was something that needed to happen. Yeah. Liz: Don't make it any less hard though. You know, sometimes things any changes of life can be really painful. Like birth is super painful, you know, as a mom of three and you with twins, I'm sure understand, but it's still a wonderful thing, right? Like there is pain in transformation. Yeah. And it can still be something that is positive in the end, but it was painful going. Brooke: Yeah. And I think we grow and evolve through the most painful things in our lives, right? Like if everything was beautiful and easy, like w what kind of life is that really? Liz: you appreciate yeah the beautiful things yeah if you never had to deal with any of the ugly things. Brooke: Yeah. So I would like to know, do you think like the death of a person and I don't want to say from generally, but can that be easier than the death of a marriage? Liz: The death of a marriage is really difficult because that person is still existing, right? And that person that was your confidant and your partner and someone that you loved very, very much is now turning into someone for some people that you don't even recognize anymore. And that can be really difficult. And I think that I've seen that transformation in myself. I think maybe I was a lot more comp not complicit. I I was a lot more agreeable. And I maybe put up with things that now I won't put up with. And I think that that's surprising to people that expected that you were going to be the same person forever. So, and I think as a divorced person, I have had to say no a lot more often. And I think as a pleaser and someone who I default to yes for so many things, like, you know, with volunteer opportunities and helping out at school, understanding your limits and having to say no more often can feel really uncomfortable at first. But you kind of have to get used to it because you don't have that other person to kind of take some of that slack. So understanding your limits and speaking out for yourself is really important. Brooke: Yeah. Yeah. I I absolutely agree. And I think you're right, especially like if you didn't want the divorce, right? Which there are a lot of people out there that did not want this divorce were blindsided and that person has maybe found somebody new and they're going off and living this life. That can be a different kind of torture because they're still around. Liz: Right. Well, and that that other person, their new partner, is maybe living the life that you wanted. And and that was a death of something of the expectation of what your life was going to look like. And for a lot of women that are stay-at-home moms or parents that are stay-at-home parents, that ability to be at home and to be there for your kids in every moment is really hard to have to walk away and say, now I'm not as available because I have to make sure that there's this income coming in so that we can exist. Yeah. So that's also the death of something, right? Like having that loss of being available for your children all the time or being able to give them the opportunities that you wanted to and you can't, like having to say no to like a soccer camp. or having to say no to a trip because it's just not within your budget. And when before it would have been no big deal. That's really hard. And it's hard to tell your kids no, especially when you feel like you had some play in that. Brooke: Right. Yeah. Like you are partially the the cause. Liz: Yeah, like responsibility. Brooke: Exactly. Exactly. So when, you know, you said earlier that people are drawn to you and they like are trying to get information about Liz: Yeah. Brooke: Well, it's like, you know, they're trying to get information about, you know, what happened in your divorce to, you know, help maybe themselves decide like what they want to do. Maybe they're divorced curious. Yeah. And they're just like, I you know, I'm gonna find out a little bit. So let's talk about some etiquette, right? Liz: Please. Yeah. I would love to talk about etiquette Okay. I went to a party. Well, I actually hosted a party. And at this party, one of my girlfriends knew that I was part of a divorce group. And so the person who led the divorce group was there. And so the other person at this party kept bringing me divorced women to introduce to the person who ran the group. And I was like, I love this. I love making connections. But I am not only a divorced person, I do a lot of other things. So and then being like the the person, like being a resource for divorced women is great because I do feel like I mean maybe they can just, you know, see how I'm failing in style. I don't know. like well, no, Brooke: It's Liz: it's like a beautiful mess, right? Like my my life is a beautiful mess and hopefully I've made the best of it and hopefully I'm having fun, you know? Like there's a lot of laughter. I don't know that it's all healthy, but that's okay because that's what therapy is for. Brooke: It's exactly Liz: So I think that being someone who's not afraid to say that I'm divorced and that is part of who I am, hopefully people see that as empowering. I don't know if they do. Brooke: Yeah. Well, I mean, you're owning your truth, Liz: Yeah. Brooke: right? And you're not hiding it. And I think that people see that and they see, first of all, you have such a bubbly personality. And I think that people, you know, are drawn to you because you are so bubbly and, you know, they love your wit and your sarcasm and all of that. but at the same time, like you might not want to be everybody's like divorced resource. Yeah. You know? I mean Liz: I mean, I feel like I am like sometimes like the token divorce woman. It is so weird to go out to dinners and things where you're like the fifth wheel or whatever, the third wheel, and being part of like my best friend and her husband. I love include me in so many things. And it is like adding on to like, you know, couples and different things. But I love that they still include me. And I think that that's something that's true of grief too, is that. When you're grieving any type of a loss, that sometimes people try to spare your feelings and say, you know, it might be too hard to invite them to this party if they always went with their ex-partner or a person who died. And you know what? Extend the invitation. And I think that we can all stand up for ourselves, right? And say, like, that sounds incredible. Thank you for inviting me. Or, you know what, I can't make it, but still to include. Is so important because I do think that divorce and death can be so isolating. And we all just want to be part of a community. Brooke: Yeah, absolutely. And if you are that newly divorced person and you get the invitation and you know that you're not gonna feel good, say no. It's okay. And say, I'm not feeling it this time, but please keep inviting me. Yeah. Because eventually you are gonna wanna keep up those friendships and those relationships. Right. And I'm gonna talk about pickleball again because I love pickleball. But yeah, typically, you know, there's four people that are playing. I'm by myself. I go with a couple. So it's either like two on one, which has happened, or I go with two other couples and one person is cycling in and out. And that is okay. And you don't have to feel bad about that, you know, that you're there by yourself and you're not part of a couple. But I do a lot of things. I go on spring break. We do an annual ski trip over the Super Bowl weekend with a bunch of other couples. And I am the single person. And we, you know, we have a blast. Yeah. And that's okay. Liz: Still including people is something that I did really appreciate. And there were parties, absolutely, where I went and I said hi to people and then I walked out to my car and cried. And I like drove home and I was like, okay, we gave that a roll. It didn't work. But that's okay. and there were definitely times where like, you know, people, you want to be your best self, right? So there was a a certain amount of time where like I didn't want to drink. Because I didn't want to like open up and like get really emotional. so there's there's different parts of that too where you're like, maybe I'm gonna go, but I'm just gonna hold a little bit of myself back. And that's okay too. Sometimes inviting people and even just including them if they're quiet or if they don't seem super engaged, just yeah, extend the invitation. Like include them. And if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. Brooke: Yeah. And you're crying in the car moment, man. That rum there that reminded me I was like what two months in two separation. I was not getting out of bed. Like it was bad. And luckily I had the most amazing au pair, Madeline. Shout out to you. I love you very much. she was so wonderful. And and she was my lifesaver during that time. But I had gotten a call to produce a Super Bowl commercial with Spike Lee. How many times Liz: my gosh. Brooke: do you get a call to produce a Super Bowl commercial with Spike Lee? And I called my parents and I was like, what am I gonna do? Like I am miserable. Like my eyes are puffy. I can't get out of bed. I like, you know, life sucks. But this opportunity is not necessarily going to come again. And They said, well, like if you think you can do it, you should do it. And I did. And when I was on set and doing my job, I was hyper focused on that. But literally the moment that I stepped out of that stage, the tears started to come. and this was multiple days where it was like back to reality. Yeah. And now I have to deal with the mess of my life. But I share that because there is something to be said of like sometimes you, you know, it can be helpful to pull yourself like out of that and get distracted in something that's gonna bring you joy and something that you're gonna be proud of years later. Just do it and challenge yourself because you know, it it really is like one of, you know, a wonderful experience that I have to look back at in such a traumatic period of my life. Liz: Absolutely. Two days after I asked my ex to leave, my mom had come up and she was staying with me. And it was graduation for a bunch of our kiddos. And my friend invited me to a party and I didn't want to go and, you know, hadn't gotten out of pajamas. And my mom was like, please just go for an hour. Just go for an hour. So I went and I sat and I really didn't talk to anybody. But just even to kind of go through the motions a little bit did help because You do have to take a shower and you do have to get dressed. And even if it's for an hour and then you come home and you get back into the pajamas, that's okay. Just keep trying. I mean, it I wish I could go back and tell myself, it will get better. Your life isn't gonna look the same as you thought it was going to, but it will still be beautiful. Brooke: Yes. And that is something that you can say five years out, but I will caution people that when you are in the thick of it, that is not something that is gonna give you comfort. When people say, like, this is gonna be good for you and you're gonna get over this and all you're like, I don't wanna hear that. Like, I am destroyed right now. Like You know, some people don't want to hear that optimism. Liz: no, absolutely not. And I think sometimes I am like hopefully not toxically optimistic, but I am. I went to one divorce group and the woman who was running it was like, you're just so like perky and upbeat. I was like, I didn't know I had another option. Like, you know, it was like, this is who I am. So I tried to show that like I was gonna keep moving forward and be okay. Yeah. But I'm not okay always. Yeah. And I do remember. being like maybe two, three weeks into separation and crying and being like, I don't know what my life is gonna look like. I feel like we have this kind of guide or like roadmap of what you think your life is gonna look like. And now it's completely different. It's like thinking that you're gonna, you know, take a vacation in Hawaii and then ending up in Alaska and being like, I don't have any of the clothes. I don't have any of the gear that I need and just having to like figure it out on your feet. But still we persist, right? Like and I think that I'm stronger than I thought I could be. And I don't know that I wanted to find out in this way, but it's still something. Brooke: Yeah. I love that that metaphor of Hawaii. I thought you were gonna say like, you know, podunk Ohio or something. Liz: Well just getting there and being like I don't have any of the right clothes or gear or anything. No absolutely Brooke: Is there anything else that you want to share with moms out there who are in the thick of it and just really struggling and are worried about their kids and worried about themselves, you know, and how they're gonna survive this? Liz: I think that it is so important that you are stronger than you think you could be. And even though this is such a scary thing, look for the resources, look for the helpers, look for whatever you have to do to prepare. I like to read, I read a bunch of books, like, you know, divorce for dummies or something like that. And you're not gonna do everything right. And even as a parent, you're not gonna do everything right. And that's okay. We just have to keep moving forward in this beautiful, messy life and know that at the end we're gonna have regrets and that's okay. sometimes you have to put yourself first. And that's really, really hard as a mom, right? Yeah. To make decisions that you think this is going to impact my child and it might not all be positive. That's really, really hard because I have always tried to even to my own detriment, put my kids first. And sometimes you make decisions that you think I don't know how they're going to react and change and deal with all of this. but we we persist, we move forward, and we're all gonna be okay. That's something that I always say about my kids. You're gonna find me rocking in a corner saying like the kids are gonna be okay. They're gonna be okay. With all these decisions, it's not only, you know, what your life is gonna look like. It's the friends they choose, it's the what they choose to do post high school, it's all of these decisions, the girlfriends and the boyfriends and how the friendships shake out. You can't control any of it. We're just doing our best. And I think that if you have hope for who your kids are and you have faith in who they are, we're gonna be okay. We really are, we're gonna be okay. Brooke: Yeah. And you really do need to put your oxygen mask on first before helping others. And that is so hard for us moms to do. I remember, you know, I loved strawberries, but I would never eat them because I wanted to make sure that there were enough for my kids who also loved strawberries. And as they've gotten older and as I've gotten older and hopefully wiser, you know, I'm digging into the strawberries when I want the strawberries because, you know It's not healthy for us to deny ourselves, right? And to not prioritize ourselves. Liz: Right. And I think that that's a lesson that you're teaching your kids too, right? Is if you're always putting yourself first. I think that something that's coming closer for me as my kids are aging is what is my life gonna look like once my kids are out of the house? And if I always put them first, then what is what is it gonna look like when they're not there and they don't need me all the time? I have to forge a future for myself. So you do have to be selfish and that's Brooke: Pay too. Yeah. Thank you so much for sitting down. This has been a great conversation. So fun.