Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / New hope for families of 8 murdered along Virginia's Colonial Parkway

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New hope for families of 8 murdered along Virginia's Colonial Parkway · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: XM Triumph. A serial killer stalking Virginia along the Colonial Parkway,
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Speaker 1: still no resolution? Who, what, Where? Why? When? I'm Nancy Grace,
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Speaker 1: this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.
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Speaker 1: How has a serial killer managed to elude law and enforcement?
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Speaker 1: Four couples, eight people that we know of dead as
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Speaker 1: a result at the hand of the Colonial Parkway killer.
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Speaker 1: With me Bill Thomas, the brother um serial killer victim
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Speaker 1: Kathleen Thomas, Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Research Institute,
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Speaker 1: renowned l A psycho analyst, Dr Bethany Marshall, and Crime
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Speaker 1: Online dot Com investigative reporter Lee Agan. Let me first
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Speaker 1: start with Bill, whose sister Kathleen lost her life to
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Speaker 1: this Colonial Parkway serial killer Bill. What is the Colonial Parkway? Well, thanks, Nancy.
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Speaker 1: The Colonial Parkway is a national park. It's a beautiful
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Speaker 1: twenty three mile long ribbon of land that was created
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Speaker 1: by the National Park Service to create to create the
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Speaker 1: feel of an old time highway. And it connects the
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Speaker 1: historic sites of Colonial Williamsburg, Jamestown, and Yorktown. And you
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Speaker 1: say it's beautiful. Why as a serial killer named Bill
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Speaker 1: Thomas after the Colonial Parkway, there is a beautiful stretch
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Speaker 1: of roads. Well. Sadly, two of the four double homicides,
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Speaker 1: including my sister Kathy Thomas and her girlfriend Rebecca Dowski.
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Speaker 1: Two of the double homicides happened on the Colonial Parkway,
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Speaker 1: and then the other two murders of couples happened in
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Speaker 1: other lovers lane situations about half an hour in either
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Speaker 1: direction from the center point, which would be the Parkway.
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Speaker 1: And newspapers in the media named the case some thirty
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Speaker 1: years ago and they began calling it the Colonial Parkway murders. Wow, Okay,
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Speaker 1: what I don't understand is the m O to Cheryl McCullum,
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Speaker 1: director of the Cold Case Research Institute, you know, it
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Speaker 1: sounds a lot like Son of Sam's m O. David Berkowitz,
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Speaker 1: who would target people sitting in cars and just with
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Speaker 1: no connection to the victim, didn't know them before, didn't
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Speaker 1: have a grudge, wasn't angry about something that happened in
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Speaker 1: the neighborhood or at work. We'll just unload shoot them dead.
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Speaker 1: And that's the hardest kind of case to solve when
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Speaker 1: there is no known connection between the victim and the killer.
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Speaker 1: You're absolutely right, Nancy has got a very son of
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Speaker 1: sand Field as well as Zodiac, very spontaneous just you know,
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Speaker 1: there's no rhyme or reason for it. There's no clear motives,
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Speaker 1: there's no confirmed signs of like robbery or rape. It
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Speaker 1: looked like he literally stop them, watched them, and then
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Speaker 1: approached them and killed them. Let's talk about serial killer
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Speaker 1: victim Kathleen Thomas. Bill. Tell me about the moment you
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Speaker 1: discovered Kathleen was dead. Well, for me, it started on
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Speaker 1: a Sunday. I got a phone call. I was at
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Speaker 1: my apartment in Philadelphia. I was working for our CIA
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Speaker 1: Video back then, and the phone rang. It was my
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Speaker 1: mom and dad calling from Lowell, Massachusetts, up near Boston.
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Speaker 1: Where my family is from. And it was both my
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Speaker 1: mom and dad on the phone, and they sounded so
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Speaker 1: serious from the word go. It wasn't unusual for me
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Speaker 1: to hear from them on a weekend, and usually the
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Speaker 1: calls were fun and just you know, family updates. Four kids,
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Speaker 1: I'm the second oldest, and but my folks sounded so
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Speaker 1: deadly serious from the word go. And I remember the
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Speaker 1: first thing my dad said is are you sitting down?
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Speaker 1: And I remember thinking what a weird thing to say.
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Speaker 1: And then my dad began telling me my He did
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Speaker 1: most of the talking, um, and he began by telling
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Speaker 1: me that that my sister Kathy had been found murdered
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Speaker 1: along with her girlfriend, Rebecca Dowski in her car on
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Speaker 1: the Colonial Parkway. And so I just sat there and
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Speaker 1: listened and asked questions, UM as they laid out what
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Speaker 1: they knew. We knew it was an FBI case right
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Speaker 1: from the beginning, which we thought was a good sign
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Speaker 1: because it was on federal property. But they weren't sure
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Speaker 1: at that point exactly what Kat and Becky were doing there.
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Speaker 1: But the car had been discovered that Sunday along the
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Speaker 1: the York River. Um, it had been somewhat obscured from
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Speaker 1: the parkway itself by being pushed down an embankment, so
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Speaker 1: they actually thought they'd been there for several days, and
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Speaker 1: he you know, walked me through you know what we knew.
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Speaker 1: And it occurred to me years later that you know,
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Speaker 1: back then, uh, the only way you could get ahold
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Speaker 1: of somebody was either call him at home or call
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Speaker 1: him at work. That was it, no cell phones. And
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Speaker 1: it occurred to me later that my parents had to
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Speaker 1: make that same difficult call three times in a row,
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Speaker 1: first to my older brother Richard, then me, and then
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Speaker 1: my younger brother Jack in in New York City. And
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Speaker 1: you know, I was thinking about how difficult that had
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Speaker 1: to be. I'm analyzing this as we go, Cheryl McCallum.
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Speaker 1: So you have not just the murderer, but the murder
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Speaker 1: is a double murder, but also trying to cover up
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Speaker 1: the murder by pushing the vehicle over an embankment. Now
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Speaker 1: that's interesting, and I'll tell you why, Cheryl, Because if
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Speaker 1: it's a random killing, typically there's a motive like a theft,
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Speaker 1: sex assault, anger, revenge, and the person hits and leaves.
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Speaker 1: If it's random, there's no prior connection. But the fact
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Speaker 1: that the killer took so much time to hide the
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Speaker 1: crime scene suggests not random take a listen to a
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Speaker 1: special agent. Earthwell says, both young women's throat were deeply
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Speaker 1: cut off, their heads almost severed. Diesel fuel, as has
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Speaker 1: been reported, was pored over the bodies, and attempts were
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Speaker 1: made to ignite it. The totality of those circumstances made
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Speaker 1: us start looking at possible Waterman that it's also my
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Speaker 1: opinion that there had to be two killers because these
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Speaker 1: vigorous young women thought back. It's my personal andion that
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Speaker 1: the killers in the Dowski Thomas case we're not the
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Speaker 1: same as the others. I find that very hard to
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Speaker 1: believe that you've got essentially the same emo along the
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Speaker 1: same stretch of Scenic Highway and they're not connected to
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Speaker 1: Dr Bethany Marshall, renowned psychoanalysts out of Los Angeles. Bethany
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Speaker 1: way in on the mode of murder. Well, here's what
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Speaker 1: I think. The person who perpetrated this was acting out
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Speaker 1: of the part of the brain that is not responsible
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Speaker 1: for white hot rage. White hot rage is part of
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Speaker 1: all mammal brains. It's like you've skept on my territory.
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Speaker 1: You've you've taken something from me. I'm enraged out of
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Speaker 1: our attachment system. Um, you've gone over the edge, and
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Speaker 1: now I'm going to protect myself in some way. That
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Speaker 1: that is not the m O for this killer. The
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Speaker 1: m O is cool, cold blooded, predatory murder. This comes
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Speaker 1: from the part of the brain of sort of the
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Speaker 1: lion that's out in the savannah and the springbok runs by,
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Speaker 1: and he just grabs the springbok for lunch, doesn't even
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Speaker 1: think twice about it, yummy lunch, doesn't think about the
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Speaker 1: ruthlessness of having killed the springbok. So this guy, because
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Speaker 1: most serial murders are men, as we know, this was
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Speaker 1: deliciously satisfying in some way to perpetrate murders on couples.
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Speaker 1: Why couples are not quite sure. Maybe there was some
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Speaker 1: significance of the sexuality or the romance or two people
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Speaker 1: being together caught his imagination. But I imagine that the
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Speaker 1: slicing of the next the rope burns around the first
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Speaker 1: couple's neck, the placing of the body, that there was
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Speaker 1: something methodical, ritualized and sort of exciting and fun might
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Speaker 1: seem like a strange word to use, but fun about
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Speaker 1: carrying out these murders. Now the idea that he poured
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Speaker 1: uh gasoline on the first couple and on the car,
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Speaker 1: but it failed to unite. I think there was some
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Speaker 1: haphazard attempt to cover up this crime so that he
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Speaker 1: group go on and eventually commit another one. I'm detected.
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Speaker 1: I'm joining me also, Sheryl McCollum, director of the Cold
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Speaker 1: Case Research Institute, Cheryl, what about it? I agree completely
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Speaker 1: that there was an attempt to cover it up by
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Speaker 1: using diesel for you, although he made a mistake by
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Speaker 1: trying to ignite it with a match, which diesel won't
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Speaker 1: do with such low level heat um and then he
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Speaker 1: pushed it into these bushes, going towards the water, again
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Speaker 1: trying to conceal the crime. So he either wanted more
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Speaker 1: time to commit other crimes, or more time to get away,
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Speaker 1: or just wanted to go on detectives completely. But this
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Speaker 1: prom scene, starting with Kathie and Rebecca, had such a
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Speaker 1: level of rage, Nancy, the triangulation could have killed them,
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Speaker 1: Cutting their throats could have killed him. Setting them on
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Speaker 1: fire could have killed them. I mean, he used different
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Speaker 1: methods at the same scene, so that level of rate
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Speaker 1: should be really cure I'm I'm I'm looking at who
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Speaker 1: the victims are? Cheryl Uh and Dr Bethany with me.
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Speaker 1: Also Bill Thomas, the brother of Kathleen Thomas who was
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Speaker 1: a victim of the Colonial Parkway serial killer, and Lee
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Speaker 1: Egan Crime Online dot Com investigative reporter. Let's look at
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Speaker 1: who the victims are? Okay, number one? Uh, Kathleen, just
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Speaker 1: twenty seven years old, was actually a graduate of the U.
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Speaker 1: S Naval Academy. You know how hard it is to
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Speaker 1: get into the Naval Academy. I mean for for over
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Speaker 1: a year, Cheryl, over a year, almost two years. Actually
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Speaker 1: the family that sits in front of us at church,
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Speaker 1: and there's several of them. I think there's five or
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Speaker 1: six of them. We're trying to get their oldest boy
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Speaker 1: into the Naval Academy and West Point anyway, I know
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Speaker 1: the Naval Academy was in there. Oh my stars, what
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Speaker 1: that family had to go through. You have to get
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Speaker 1: uh politicians involved, right, recommendations and oh my, all a's
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Speaker 1: to pass this test? Do that? Do this? Being eagles
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Speaker 1: scout the works. This girl had actually graduated from the
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Speaker 1: US Naval Academy. I mean she was not you know
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Speaker 1: what so often and this is wrong, but I've experienced
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Speaker 1: it and seen it happen to other murder victims families.
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Speaker 1: The rest of the world looks on them like, well,
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Speaker 1: what were you doing wrong? What it was your fault?
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Speaker 1: You're in the wrong place at the wrong time. You
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Speaker 1: were partying late, you were drunk, you were doing drugs,
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Speaker 1: you were this, you were that. No, this is a
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Speaker 1: Naval Academy graduate, Kathleen Thomas, twenty seven years old, with
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Speaker 1: her life in front of her, and her friend Rebecca
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Speaker 1: just twenty one. Now interesting, their bodies were found owned
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Speaker 1: Columbus Day weekend. Later on, we have the Colonial Parkway
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Speaker 1: killer striking again around Labor Day. What does that tell me?
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Speaker 1: That tells me he we know it's a man is
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Speaker 1: off work. That's significant. That means most likely he has
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Speaker 1: a job. See that means a lot to me because
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Speaker 1: I'm getting a profile of who the purp is. Dr
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Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall. Well, not only does he have a job,
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Speaker 1: but there is some possibility that he has a family.
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Speaker 1: That's a scary part because we know a lot of
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Speaker 1: these serial killers. You're there this idea of the guy
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Speaker 1: in the black trench coat lurking in the shadows. But
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Speaker 1: a lot of these stories we covered, the perpetrator has
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Speaker 1: actually been a family man, middle aged, Deconeta, church of
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Speaker 1: family vehicles, you know, three kids and a dog. So
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Speaker 1: I think it's a mistake to just be killing me, Bethany,
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Speaker 1: I'm dying right, he ear because you know who that
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Speaker 1: sounds like. It just brings to mind bt K fine
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Speaker 1: torture and kill. Dennis Radar was a dog catcher with
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Speaker 1: a family with children. He held down this municipality job
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Speaker 1: for years while he was murdering people left and right.
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Speaker 1: Nobody suspected. That's what I'm thinking about here. Let's go
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Speaker 1: out to the lines joining me right now. Joe from Bocca. Hi, Joe,
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Speaker 1: what's your question? Uh? The question really is with Kathleen's background,
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Speaker 1: graduating from the Naval Academy, Uh, were there any signs
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Speaker 1: that she tried to fight anybody off to fight the killer?
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Speaker 1: Or good question? Hold on, just stay right there. I
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Speaker 1: know this. The autopsy report tells me that there are
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Speaker 1: road burns on both the young ladies necks and wrists. Interesting,
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Speaker 1: Why on the wrist were they trying to fight back us?
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Speaker 1: Like you're saying, Joe from Boca, Why would they have
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Speaker 1: rope burns on their wrists. There were signs of strangulation,
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Speaker 1: but their throats had been slashed. Diesel fuel poured over
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Speaker 1: their bodies, but the car wouldn't ignite. As Cheryl McCollum described,
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Speaker 1: their purses and money in the car, So it wasn't
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Speaker 1: a theft. Um it looks And answer to your question, Joe,
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Speaker 1: that thomas Um, the Naval Academy grad struggled with her attacker.
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Speaker 1: A clump of hair was found between her fingers. Now
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Speaker 1: that clump of hair, whose is it? Is there anyway
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Speaker 1: through ancestry dot com or all the many other genealogy
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Speaker 1: websites can we track the guy? Uh? That technology wasn't
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Speaker 1: around when these first started happening. Both women fully clothed,
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Speaker 1: So no robbery, no sex assault, as Cheryl pointed out,
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Speaker 1: So what's your motive? Let's talk about did they fight
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Speaker 1: that with me? And? Bill? I hate to put such
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Speaker 1: blunt questions to you, but I want to know about
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Speaker 1: the Colonial Parkway killer, a serial killer who has claimed
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Speaker 1: multiple lives and it's never been solved steel to this day,
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Speaker 1: stalking Virginia. Bill, what do you know about whether your
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Speaker 1: sister and her friend tried to fight back. Well, from
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Speaker 1: what we're told by the FBI, Cathy definitely put up
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Speaker 1: a struggle. And one thing that's probably worth mentioning. Both
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Speaker 1: Kathy and Becky are are fairly tall, you know, five
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Speaker 1: seven or so, very athletic women in top physical condition,
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Speaker 1: and Kathy had taken martial arts training at the Naval Academy.
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Speaker 1: She definitely knew how to take care of herself. As
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Speaker 1: a matter of fact, I remember her jokingly with her
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Speaker 1: three older brothers and my parents showing us at Thanksgiving
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Speaker 1: one year all the things they learned in martial arts
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Speaker 1: training at the ACCA. To me, I would not despite
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Speaker 1: the fact that I probably outweigh her by fifty pounds
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Speaker 1: back then, it would be more now. I don't think
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Speaker 1: I actually would have wanted to take Kathy on in
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Speaker 1: a in a real fight, because she was very tough
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Speaker 1: and athletic and you know, toned and conditioned. And from
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Speaker 1: what we understand from her autopsy and talking to the experts,
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Speaker 1: she did put up a significant fight, and she had
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Speaker 1: tearing on the webbing of her hand where she probably
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Speaker 1: put her thumb underneath the rope that was put around
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Speaker 1: her neck, you know, trying to pull it away. Um,
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Speaker 1: so she clearly struggled, and from the cuts and bruises there,
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Speaker 1: you know there was some sort of struggle before he
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Speaker 1: assumed ultimately control over both women. M that's hard to
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Speaker 1: subdue to athletic, physically fit women, very difficult to do.
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Speaker 1: How did it happen? With me? Crime Online dot Com
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Speaker 1: investigative reporter Lee Egan Do you think, Lee, does the
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Speaker 1: evidence suggest that he got into the car? Was the
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Speaker 1: car parked, was the car moving? Had they stopped to
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Speaker 1: pick somebody up hitchhiker by chance? What do we know, Lee,
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Speaker 1: about the mechanics of how he got to them? Well,
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Speaker 1: what I'm hearing, Nancy is that he walked This is
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Speaker 1: just a theory at this point, but he walked up,
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Speaker 1: and he may have been posing as a park ranger
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Speaker 1: or a law enforcement officer, because they found Kathleen's driver's
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Speaker 1: license out of her wallet and sitting there as if
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Speaker 1: maybe he came up and asked for her I d
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Speaker 1: And that's how that threw them off. And then I
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Speaker 1: also think that they found like some kind of hair
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Speaker 1: in her hand, as if she was pulling it. Yes,
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Speaker 1: that's what I just mentioned. That there was a clump
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Speaker 1: of hair in her hand Lea Egan, You're absolutely right?
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Speaker 1: Is that the purpse hair or her hair? It's not
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Speaker 1: her hair. I know they did DNA testing and it
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Speaker 1: was not her hair. Um, so I'm assuming it's probably
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Speaker 1: going to be the perp. Got to be the killer's hair. Now,
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Speaker 1: that puts a whole another layer on it. To Sheryl McCollum,
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Speaker 1: you know who posed as a cop ted Bundy. That
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Speaker 1: was one of his things, no question, and very similar
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Speaker 1: to Bundy. He evolved. So Bundy went from strangulation to
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Speaker 1: bloodgeoning to you know, attacking people at night to snatching
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Speaker 1: the twelve year old girl off the street in broad daylight.
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Speaker 1: This killer seems to be doing the same thing. So
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Speaker 1: at Kathleen and Rebecca scene it's overkilled. At another scene
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Speaker 1: he's shooting people. So again, as he's evolving, as he's changing,
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Speaker 1: it tells you he's finding what works best for him. Yeah.
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Speaker 1: And Schryl McCollum, I mean I prosecuted uh many serial killers,
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Speaker 1: spree killers, and it helps. Yes, it does if the
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Speaker 1: m O motus o RUNDI method of operation is always
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Speaker 1: the same. I know you remember the red rapist in
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Speaker 1: case I prosecuted in Atlanta, and he's always the same.
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Speaker 1: It was him, whether I had DNA or not. It
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Speaker 1: was so such a fingerprint crime, you knew it was him. Okay,
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Speaker 1: So if I could prove one, I could prove the other.
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Speaker 1: Based on m O alone here not so much. But
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Speaker 1: what unites them all is the Colonial Parkway, the fact
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Speaker 1: that it's always along this scenic drive in Virginia, that
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Speaker 1: it's always couples, they're always connected to or in a car,
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Speaker 1: It's always around a certain time of day, and now
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Speaker 1: we're identifying it's all very often around a holiday weekend.
19:37
Speaker 1: All extremely significant into identifying who the serial killer is.
19:44
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Speaker 1: enter your own name, get started. He saw keiths car
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Speaker 1: there on the parkway, so he pulled over and he
21:05
Speaker 1: stopped and the driver's side door was wide open, and
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Speaker 1: the glove box was open, and the keys were in
21:12
Speaker 1: the car. And another thing was that the front seat
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Speaker 1: was pulled forward. My dad thought maybe he had just
21:19
Speaker 1: went off with some friends and left his car there,
21:21
Speaker 1: or either they had walked down to the beach. And
21:24
Speaker 1: he said that, you know, that is not like him
21:26
Speaker 1: to do something like that. I got a phone call
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Speaker 1: from my mother and she sounds kind of frantic, and
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Speaker 1: she said, um, Joy, you gotta meet me down at
21:36
Speaker 1: the Parkway. UM Park rangers called and they said that
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Speaker 1: Keiths cars down there, and so I jumped in the
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Speaker 1: car and I'm going across the bridge and I get
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Speaker 1: this terrible feeling in my gut and I come around
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Speaker 1: the corner and I see this yellow caution tape blocking
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Speaker 1: the entrance to where his car was. They were all
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Speaker 1: walk in hand in hand, trying to find if there
22:03
Speaker 1: were any bodies in the water. What was really strange
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Speaker 1: was some of Key's clothes, his underwear, his watch, his eyeglasses,
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Speaker 1: Cassandra's wallet, and a brawl and one shoe. They weren't
22:17
Speaker 1: in there when my dad stopped the first time. When
22:20
Speaker 1: he would have that would have freaked him out. That's
22:22
Speaker 1: something he even noticed. That is so bizarre. The story
22:27
Speaker 1: that Keith called sister Joyce call Canada described describing the
22:32
Speaker 1: day her brother case car was found. That is chilling.
22:38
Speaker 1: The way the car was left to Bill Thomas. What
22:43
Speaker 1: does she mean by the fact that those items, including
22:46
Speaker 1: the wallet, the watch, the girls underwear, and some of
22:51
Speaker 1: her clothing, were not in the car the first time
22:54
Speaker 1: he looked at it. Were those items later placed in
22:57
Speaker 1: the car? Well? What Joyce's describing as a situation where
23:02
Speaker 1: her father who since passed away. He's Richard Call, which
23:05
Speaker 1: is what Keith is. Also Richard goes by Keith his
23:07
Speaker 1: middle name UM. Mr Call is on his way to
23:11
Speaker 1: work at the Bush Brewery. He normally drives the Colonial Parkway.
23:15
Speaker 1: On the way, he notices Keith's very distinctive Toyota Celica
23:21
Speaker 1: park on this little pull off next to the parkway.
23:25
Speaker 1: It's it's completely impossible to miss. He. Mr Call pulls
23:29
Speaker 1: over and notices the doors somewhat ajar and that Keith's
23:35
Speaker 1: car is there, but there's there's no one inside. He
23:38
Speaker 1: according to Mr Call, he stopped, he called out for them,
23:43
Speaker 1: looked around, didn't see anything out of the ordinary, and
23:47
Speaker 1: then ultimately, you know, kind of gets it into his head, well,
23:51
Speaker 1: you know, kids will be kids. They must have gone
23:53
Speaker 1: off with some other friends. So he heads off. This
23:56
Speaker 1: is early morning. The following morning, he heads off to work,
24:00
Speaker 1: but he swears that nothing seemed out of the ordinary
24:03
Speaker 1: and that he looked inside the car. Now a couple
24:07
Speaker 1: of hours later, when National Park Service rangers UM are
24:11
Speaker 1: investigating the scene and realizing they're dealing with a missing
24:14
Speaker 1: person's case, this couple are nowhere to be found. They
24:19
Speaker 1: say that there are there's the clothing that Joyce described,
24:23
Speaker 1: and Mr Call was troubled by this to his death,
24:28
Speaker 1: saying he never would have continued on to work had
24:31
Speaker 1: he seen those items of clothing and the shoes and
24:35
Speaker 1: so on. So there's this disconnect um. Some of the
24:39
Speaker 1: reporting recently seems to have highlighted the possibility that National
24:43
Speaker 1: Park Service rangers may have removed the clothing and other
24:47
Speaker 1: items from the car in an attempt to figure out
24:51
Speaker 1: whose car was abandoned there on the parkway, and then
24:56
Speaker 1: realizing that they were now dealing with a missing person's
24:59
Speaker 1: k The reporting now is that the chagrined National Park
25:04
Speaker 1: Service rangers went back and then recontaminated the recontaminated the
25:09
Speaker 1: crime scene a second time by going back and placing
25:13
Speaker 1: the articles of clothing back inside the car. Okay, that
25:16
Speaker 1: sounds fantastical that they would take the items out and
25:21
Speaker 1: then go back and put them back in. I'll tell
25:23
Speaker 1: you where it takes my mind, Cheryl McCollum, wrong or
25:27
Speaker 1: right in light of what Bill Thomas told me, Kathleen
25:31
Speaker 1: Thomas's brother, Uh wait, maybe it was Lee that told
25:34
Speaker 1: me that her Kathleen's driver's license was out as if
25:40
Speaker 1: she had taken it out of her wallet. When a
25:42
Speaker 1: cop pulls you over and says, um license registration, you
25:46
Speaker 1: take out your driver's license, and now we see movement
25:51
Speaker 1: of crime scene evidence within the car, and then it's
25:55
Speaker 1: mysteriously back in the car. It my mind races to
25:58
Speaker 1: the question, is that a part range Absolutely several of
26:01
Speaker 1: the scenes and they see the driver's side window was
26:04
Speaker 1: rolled down, and a couple of scenes the glove boxes
26:07
Speaker 1: open as though someone is getting their registration, their insurance,
26:11
Speaker 1: and their driver's license. Again, the wallets were open. So
26:15
Speaker 1: it does lead you to think that that's another reason
26:18
Speaker 1: how you can easily get somebody out of the car
26:21
Speaker 1: if you are approached by police officer that says step out.
26:25
Speaker 1: You've got one person out of the car easily, and
26:27
Speaker 1: if you hand up that person or band them, then
26:30
Speaker 1: it's easy to go get the second person. Bill, I
26:32
Speaker 1: want to go back if you don't mind to your
26:34
Speaker 1: sister Kathleen. Were both her and her friend Rebecca's bodies
26:40
Speaker 1: in the vehicle. They were. They're the only case of
26:44
Speaker 1: the four where the bodies are found with the vehicle
26:48
Speaker 1: Cathy is in the way back as we used to
26:51
Speaker 1: call it, the hatchback area of their Honda Civics. So
26:55
Speaker 1: you know, those were pretty small cars. And Becky's body
26:59
Speaker 1: was on the diagonal in the back seat with their
27:01
Speaker 1: feet extending towards the passenger door. Um And as I mentioned,
27:06
Speaker 1: both of these women are are are pretty tall. We're
27:09
Speaker 1: not talking about you know, five ft tall und women
27:12
Speaker 1: were talking, you know, so just the idea of you know,
27:17
Speaker 1: squeezing Cathy into that hatchback area and then Becky into
27:22
Speaker 1: the back seat. They think the murders themselves took place
27:26
Speaker 1: outside the car and then the bodies were placed inside
27:29
Speaker 1: the car before um he moved the car. And in
27:34
Speaker 1: all of the examples they think that there's movement of
27:37
Speaker 1: cars post mortem, that the um, the killer is is
27:43
Speaker 1: moving the cars and maybe even staging the cars to
27:46
Speaker 1: create certain impressions. Well, another thing that tells me to
27:50
Speaker 1: Dr Bethany Marshall, l a psychoanalyst, is the killer is
27:54
Speaker 1: not afraid of getting caught because they're taking a lot
27:58
Speaker 1: of time. As I always and the John beIN a
28:01
Speaker 1: Ramsey murder case, somebody did not mind kick him back
28:06
Speaker 1: inside the Ramsey house and writing what was it? A
28:09
Speaker 1: three page ransom note plus a practice note. I may
28:13
Speaker 1: not worried at all if I broke into somebody's house,
28:16
Speaker 1: I'd be a nervous wreck, thinking they're gonna walk in
28:19
Speaker 1: at any moment. Not the John bin a Ramsey killer,
28:22
Speaker 1: and not the colonial parkway killer. They've got time to
28:26
Speaker 1: get the people, pull the people over, get them out
28:29
Speaker 1: of the car. In this case, put the two women
28:32
Speaker 1: back in the car. Move the car. They're not worried
28:36
Speaker 1: somebody's going to spot them. Why what does that tell you, Bethany,
28:41
Speaker 1: But Nancy, it starts, uh, prior to that, with the
28:44
Speaker 1: procurement of park ranger uniform. I mean this, this is
28:49
Speaker 1: ritualized and time consuming from the get go. This person
28:54
Speaker 1: has to go get a uniform. I mean that takes time.
28:59
Speaker 1: Then they have to troll the parkway finding the right
29:02
Speaker 1: vic unless they already have one, unless they already have
29:06
Speaker 1: a uniform. Think about it. That's actually a really good point.
29:11
Speaker 1: Or in terms of time consuming. They became a park
29:14
Speaker 1: ranger because the fantasy of killing was already in their mind.
29:18
Speaker 1: I mean, the seeds of this were fomented over many
29:22
Speaker 1: years of the perpetrator's life, and they finally got the
29:25
Speaker 1: courage to do it. And I think that whoever did
29:28
Speaker 1: this loved toying with the victims. That the analogy that
29:32
Speaker 1: comes to my mind is a cat with a mouse.
29:35
Speaker 1: You know, if you've ever seen a cat with a mouse,
29:37
Speaker 1: you know, they flip the mouse this way, they flip
29:39
Speaker 1: the mouse that way. There's something cool and predatory and
29:43
Speaker 1: kind of playful about the interaction with the mouse. And
29:47
Speaker 1: it seems, especially with Kathy and Becky, that you know,
29:50
Speaker 1: there are the rope burns around the neck, then around
29:54
Speaker 1: the wrist, and then there's the slash in the throat,
29:57
Speaker 1: which also suggests to your point that this perpetrator took
30:01
Speaker 1: his time with them. He didn't just shoot them or
30:03
Speaker 1: slash their throats, but there were multiple modalities of aggression
30:08
Speaker 1: against these young women. Joe is popping back up again. Joe,
30:12
Speaker 1: you've heard the story of Keith and his dad and
30:18
Speaker 1: the girlfriend. I know you have an opinion. What's your question?
30:24
Speaker 1: When they were stopped, the person who stopped them didn't
30:27
Speaker 1: have to be in uniform, because there are always police
30:31
Speaker 1: out there. I saw one the other day in an
30:34
Speaker 1: unmarked car, having stopped someone on the saw Grass Highway
30:39
Speaker 1: near where I lived, and uh uh so a uniform
30:45
Speaker 1: wasn't even necessary, and likely when she reached out to
30:49
Speaker 1: give the person that stopped her her license and so
30:55
Speaker 1: on and insurance, that's when he likely put her in
30:59
Speaker 1: hand up or slipped on a handcuff, not a metal necessarily,
31:06
Speaker 1: but a rope kind of handcuff. And that's my opinion
31:11
Speaker 1: that they were lost after that, you know they yeah,
31:15
Speaker 1: I mean, once that happened, it was over, you know,
31:17
Speaker 1: listening to Joe's theory Cheryl Bethany and Bill Thomas, and
31:23
Speaker 1: I'm hung up on all the indicators that this person
31:27
Speaker 1: either was or was impersonating a cop or a park ranger.
31:31
Speaker 1: The driver's license out, they're getting them out of the car,
31:36
Speaker 1: the um wallets open, the glove compartment open now typically,
31:42
Speaker 1: and that would make me think that it was a theft,
31:44
Speaker 1: but no money was taken, So all of that goes
31:49
Speaker 1: towards the people the victims quote cooperating with a park
31:53
Speaker 1: ranger or a cop. Is there anything else to suggest
31:56
Speaker 1: that scenario. When you're a ranger, you have a large
32:00
Speaker 1: area that is all of yours, and you basically worked
32:03
Speaker 1: alone this person and that you know, thirty mile area
32:09
Speaker 1: could virtually work undetected by anybody, even as supervisor. And
32:15
Speaker 1: I came home with Danny, which was her boyfriend's brother.
32:19
Speaker 1: He wouldn't help move in with them because they were young,
32:22
Speaker 1: and um, I think with the rent they were living
32:27
Speaker 1: with his sister or his older sister. And then she
32:30
Speaker 1: moved out, so the brother was going to move into
32:34
Speaker 1: help and Clint, her boyfriend had to work that night. So, um,
32:39
Speaker 1: it was labor day weekend and she wouldn't come see
32:41
Speaker 1: your family, and since he was coming to a meal, yes,
32:43
Speaker 1: she said, I'll ride with you. And I think he
32:46
Speaker 1: dropped her off at mom and Dad's and he went
32:49
Speaker 1: to his house and got his stuff, gathered his stuff,
32:52
Speaker 1: so it was really late when they left, and um,
32:55
Speaker 1: Mom of course locked her door and told her, you know,
32:58
Speaker 1: don't unlock your door. She always did that, lock their doors.
33:01
Speaker 1: And when she called me, she said, Anna never made
33:05
Speaker 1: at home. She called me the next day she said
33:07
Speaker 1: she didn't make it home. And you know, that in
33:11
Speaker 1: itself set a panic, you know, with the family, because
33:15
Speaker 1: we knew that wasn't um the norm for her. Um.
33:19
Speaker 1: She was supposed to call when she got back and
33:23
Speaker 1: I don't really remember a lot of the details. It
33:26
Speaker 1: was a lot of phone conversations, a lot of looking.
33:29
Speaker 1: We we um William and I and my dad, my
33:33
Speaker 1: other sister. We all did searches in the woods and
33:36
Speaker 1: family members. You are hearing Rosanna Sevitti giving details about
33:42
Speaker 1: the last time her family saw her sister, Anna Annie
33:46
Speaker 1: Marie Phelps. Now, this is what I know about Annie
33:50
Speaker 1: Marie Phelps, just eighteen years old. She and her boyfriend
33:54
Speaker 1: Daniel Lower, who was twenty one, were found in New
33:57
Speaker 1: Kent County. They were discovered by hunters out in the
34:01
Speaker 1: woods near a rest area along the interstate I believe
34:06
Speaker 1: it's Interstate sixty four and that runs between Richmond and Williamsburg. Now,
34:11
Speaker 1: Anne Marie had been dating Lowers, a brother at the
34:15
Speaker 1: time they went missing. It was a Labor Day weekend
34:19
Speaker 1: and they vanished on their way to Virginia Beach. Their
34:24
Speaker 1: bodies were not discovered for a period of time. They
34:27
Speaker 1: were off a logging road about a quarter of a
34:30
Speaker 1: mile away from Courthouse Road off four. There was a
34:35
Speaker 1: rest stop there and at the rest stop, lours Chevy
34:39
Speaker 1: Nova had been found heading in the wrong direction away
34:45
Speaker 1: from Virginia beach where they were headed. At least one
34:50
Speaker 1: of the bodies, very decomposed, appears to have suffered wounds
34:57
Speaker 1: from a knife. Okay, Cheryl the Column, director of the
35:01
Speaker 1: Cold Case Research Institute, what does this tell you? It
35:06
Speaker 1: tells me again this killer is evolved in Nancy. If
35:09
Speaker 1: you go back to April tent with Keith and Cassandra,
35:13
Speaker 1: they were never found. That means they were transported somewhere
35:17
Speaker 1: else in hidden better than the first two. When you
35:20
Speaker 1: get to Anna, Marine and Daniel again, this killer is
35:24
Speaker 1: going to make sure his tracks are covered. He is
35:28
Speaker 1: now involved to the point not only am I going
35:30
Speaker 1: to transport you, I'll use your car to do it.
35:34
Speaker 1: And they were found, but they weren't found for six weeks.
35:38
Speaker 1: And at that point, um, there's some evidence they were stabbed,
35:42
Speaker 1: but you know a lot of the evidence were gone. Yeah,
35:45
Speaker 1: the evidence is gone after a period of time. To
35:49
Speaker 1: Bill Thomas, brother of Colonial Parkway serial killer victim Kathleen Thomas,
35:55
Speaker 1: what do you make of Anne Marie's death. Well, there's
35:59
Speaker 1: a couple of things that are notable. This is the
36:01
Speaker 1: only one of the four where it takes place exclusively
36:05
Speaker 1: on the land. All of the other murders, including the
36:09
Speaker 1: second murder of David Nobling and Robin Edwards Um. They
36:14
Speaker 1: all take place right next to the water, and there's
36:17
Speaker 1: an attempt um in in a couple of those examples
36:21
Speaker 1: to place the bodies in the water. In this example,
36:26
Speaker 1: the fourth example with Anna Marie and Daniel Um, they
36:30
Speaker 1: go missing along this wooded stretch of highway on six
36:33
Speaker 1: four and are found just a couple of miles away
36:38
Speaker 1: in the woods by hunters. And the crime scene seems different,
36:44
Speaker 1: but there are a lot of strong similarities again with
36:47
Speaker 1: the the odd movement of the car from one side
36:51
Speaker 1: of sixty four. Their rest stops on both sides of
36:53
Speaker 1: the highway and you can get to from one to
36:55
Speaker 1: the other by walking. But you know, we have this
36:59
Speaker 1: odd to tail where the car is found. You know,
37:02
Speaker 1: it's been swung around on the highway and then headed
37:05
Speaker 1: back in the opposite direction of travel. There there seems
37:09
Speaker 1: to be just this um effort made to um change
37:15
Speaker 1: up how law enforcement investigators would perceive things. And you know,
37:22
Speaker 1: one odd detail regarding uh Anna and Daniels Um crime scene.
37:28
Speaker 1: His Chevy Nova is found in the opposite direction of
37:32
Speaker 1: travel with a roach clip very prominently placed on the window,
37:37
Speaker 1: and some law enforcement investigators have said to me that
37:40
Speaker 1: that felt like a taunt, that this was something that
37:43
Speaker 1: the killer did to just kind of literally put that
37:47
Speaker 1: in their face as they were examining the Chevy Nova.
37:50
Speaker 1: What do we know, Cheryl McComb about potential DNA testing
37:54
Speaker 1: by the FBI testing genetic testing that could not have
37:57
Speaker 1: been done at the time. Well, they're due and in
38:01
Speaker 1: that testing, which is they're trying to get DNA off
38:04
Speaker 1: the clothing of the victims, and then with that DNA
38:07
Speaker 1: they will trying to do Paara bond to try to
38:09
Speaker 1: get a composite of this person as well as the
38:13
Speaker 1: ancestry DNA on the different side. So they're going to
38:17
Speaker 1: try to develop all of that to see if we
38:19
Speaker 1: can get an idea of this person. You know, I'm
38:22
Speaker 1: thinking about the m O S. I'm thinking about the location.
38:26
Speaker 1: How do you connect the locations and what does it
38:28
Speaker 1: say to you, Sheryl McCollum where the people are killed.
38:32
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go back to being a ranger for a minute,
38:34
Speaker 1: and that possibility you've basically worked alone. This person could
38:40
Speaker 1: virtually work undetected by anybody. So they had places they
38:47
Speaker 1: can hide. They had places they could sit and watch.
38:50
Speaker 1: So if you've got your truck range of trucks parked
38:53
Speaker 1: up above, and you're watching people pulling into this lover's lane,
38:57
Speaker 1: it would be easy for you to wait and look
39:00
Speaker 1: down the road. You could see fifteen miles down the road.
39:03
Speaker 1: You know nobody else is coming. So if you flew
39:06
Speaker 1: down at that point to attack, you know you've got
39:10
Speaker 1: at least twenty minutes before another person could possibly get
39:13
Speaker 1: to you. I mean, it's almost an unbelievable watch zones
39:18
Speaker 1: for a killer. You know, the family of Keith Call
39:21
Speaker 1: has been quoted that they feel completely forgotten, that they
39:26
Speaker 1: never hear from law enforcement. They don't even know if
39:29
Speaker 1: anyone is working to solve the case. That this was
39:33
Speaker 1: keith first date with Cassandra Halley. When they fell victim
39:37
Speaker 1: to the Colonial Parkway killer, their bodies were never found.
39:44
Speaker 1: They say that even now they still have some kind
39:47
Speaker 1: of hope after all this time, that they know inside
39:51
Speaker 1: of their mind that he's not coming home, but that
39:54
Speaker 1: they keep hoping, and that they see on TV and
39:57
Speaker 1: reading the news where other cases are opened, Why not there?
40:02
Speaker 1: Why not their case? Keith's case? So I'm concerned about
40:07
Speaker 1: the effect this is having on the justice system when
40:10
Speaker 1: victims feel they're totally left out, that they have no
40:15
Speaker 1: idea what's going on with their case. To Bill Thomas,
40:18
Speaker 1: Kathleen Thomas's brother, what about it, Bill, Well, this is
40:22
Speaker 1: probably the hardest thing of all. You know, we've over
40:25
Speaker 1: the last eight years, since I got more heavily involved
40:28
Speaker 1: in the case, we've gotten very close as as a
40:31
Speaker 1: group of eight families. Um. But I remember my father,
40:34
Speaker 1: who's still with us, saying back in two thousand ten that,
40:39
Speaker 1: as difficult as our situation might be, he said, very
40:43
Speaker 1: quietly from the backseat of my car while we were
40:46
Speaker 1: driving back from meeting with the FBI, said, at least
40:48
Speaker 1: we know what happened to Kathy. Um. I actually think
40:52
Speaker 1: the missing person's aspect of the call Haley case is actually,
40:58
Speaker 1: in my opinion, and thirty one years into this now
41:02
Speaker 1: is actually a greater heartbreak, because there's always the thought
41:08
Speaker 1: in the minds of family members that maybe someday, somehow,
41:12
Speaker 1: Keith and Cassandra are going to walk back through that door.
41:15
Speaker 1: And I think you're almost better off knowing as opposed
41:20
Speaker 1: to not knowing. What about two more recent murders up
41:25
Speaker 1: to Blackburg College students. I'm talking about UM students Heidi
41:33
Speaker 1: Childs and David melt Source. Their bodies were found being
41:38
Speaker 1: shot dead, and many people believe that there is connection
41:44
Speaker 1: to the Colonial Parkway killer. UM it's UM. They were
41:51
Speaker 1: found at Caldwell Fields, near the Jefferson National Forest property.
41:58
Speaker 1: That's about twelve miles a miles from Virginia Tech. Now
42:02
Speaker 1: it's a common area for hikers to go to Harlee
42:06
Speaker 1: any sales service. We don't know exactly how many shots
42:10
Speaker 1: were fired, but we do know there is taught that
42:15
Speaker 1: these more recent murders could be connected to the Colonial
42:21
Speaker 1: Parkway killings. That would mean the killer is back in action.
42:29
Speaker 1: Response Bill. It is possible that the child's Metzler murder
42:34
Speaker 1: could be related, and and there are other murders of
42:38
Speaker 1: couples and individuals that could be related to the Colonial
42:42
Speaker 1: Parkway murders. There are things about the Child's Metzler case
42:46
Speaker 1: that that do remind me of the Colonial Parkway murders.
42:49
Speaker 1: It's probably also worth noting I don't remember which set
42:52
Speaker 1: of parents it is. It's not critical, but one of
42:55
Speaker 1: their parents is an investigator for the Virginia State Police. UM. Again,
43:00
Speaker 1: I don't know that that's uh, you know, pertinent, um.
43:04
Speaker 1: But there are a lot of things about the circumstances
43:09
Speaker 1: of of how Heidi and David were killed that do
43:11
Speaker 1: remind people of the Colonial Park Grand murders. Do you
43:14
Speaker 1: make of it? Dr Bethany Marshall, you're the psychoanalysts. Well,
43:17
Speaker 1: it's so interesting to me that these are all young people, educated,
43:21
Speaker 1: in the prime of their life, their couples. Cheryl McCollum
43:24
Speaker 1: talked about a literal watch zone where this perpetrator could
43:28
Speaker 1: watch down onto lover's lane, And I think about all
43:31
Speaker 1: the serial murders we've covered where they target family constellations
43:36
Speaker 1: of some sort like B t K. He targeted mothers
43:40
Speaker 1: and young children as well as entire families with young children, UM, pedophiles.
43:46
Speaker 1: It's a different type of crime, but they target entire families.
43:50
Speaker 1: This perpetrator targeted couples in the prime of their life.
43:54
Speaker 1: So what is that about? Is it, as you said earlier,
43:58
Speaker 1: a type of couple envy? Is there something about the
44:01
Speaker 1: emerging sexuality between a young couple? Um, and this serial
44:06
Speaker 1: killer is also a voyeur, so there was a watching
44:09
Speaker 1: component to all of this, you know, is there the
44:13
Speaker 1: m also bringing the couple under his control. One couple
44:17
Speaker 1: was found on the bank of a river, one was
44:20
Speaker 1: stuffed back into their car. Did he want to control
44:24
Speaker 1: them in some fashion, like I said earlier, like a
44:26
Speaker 1: cat with a mouse, you know, for minutes or hours
44:29
Speaker 1: on end until he finally killed them. But I think
44:33
Speaker 1: there's something about the interplay between two young people who
44:37
Speaker 1: possibly have some sexual relationship with each other that this
44:41
Speaker 1: perpetrator wanted to insert himself into that dynamic, either by
44:45
Speaker 1: watching it, controlling it, or quite possibly destroying it so
44:50
Speaker 1: that they could not enjoy what the couple had created
44:52
Speaker 1: for themselves. You know, another issue, Cheryl mccollumna, I want
44:55
Speaker 1: to revisit that it is someone within the range of
44:59
Speaker 1: divis vision within the police department or sheriff's department, or
45:02
Speaker 1: an impersonator. What can you tell me how do you
45:05
Speaker 1: connect these cases together under that scenario? Again, I think
45:09
Speaker 1: you've got somebody that takes great time. They're not in
45:12
Speaker 1: a hurry, they're not worried about getting caught. They may
45:16
Speaker 1: even leave and come back. Um they stage the crime scene.
45:21
Speaker 1: So again there's a lot of thought, there's a lot
45:23
Speaker 1: of time, and they're not worried about being scene. So
45:27
Speaker 1: let's say they do have a ranger of trucks and
45:29
Speaker 1: they're in uniform, or they have a police car. If
45:32
Speaker 1: somebody were to see them, people drive right past that
45:34
Speaker 1: thinking whatever the situation is being handled so that person
45:37
Speaker 1: doesn't have to worry about. And again, if they're a ranger,
45:40
Speaker 1: if anybody does make a call, is going to them anyway.
45:44
Speaker 1: So it's it's a great set up if that's what's
45:47
Speaker 1: happening here. And you know, Nancy, now you know the
45:50
Speaker 1: Coleo Parkway. You've got before crime scene, you've got three
45:54
Speaker 1: secondary scene, and you've got one secondary scene that was
45:57
Speaker 1: never discovered. So he leaves have gone back to what
46:01
Speaker 1: he goes comfortable with and feels like, hey, I don't
46:03
Speaker 1: have to hide it anymore. But we do know scial
46:06
Speaker 1: killers do go dormant for a period of time, So
46:10
Speaker 1: it could very well be right now there may be
46:12
Speaker 1: a break in the Colonial Parkway serial killer case. New
46:16
Speaker 1: DNA testing could possibly crack the murders. Relatives of Kathy
46:22
Speaker 1: Thomas are among those confident testing can lead to a
46:27
Speaker 1: break in the murder case. What about it, Bill, Well,
46:31
Speaker 1: we're hopeful, you know, we recognize that, UM, if if
46:36
Speaker 1: we have evidence. We've been urging the FBI and the
46:39
Speaker 1: Virginia State Police to move forward, you know, with additional
46:42
Speaker 1: testing and and you know we have faith in law enforcement.
46:45
Speaker 1: But we it's been slow. It's been a slogo and
46:49
Speaker 1: I think I can say that at thirty one years UM.
46:52
Speaker 1: But we're hoping that with all of the new advancements
46:55
Speaker 1: in technology, we can finally get some results with some
46:59
Speaker 1: new approaches. If you have any information, whether you think
47:04
Speaker 1: it valuable or not, please call eight zero four six
47:08
Speaker 1: seven four two thousand. That's the Virginia State Patrol eight
47:12
Speaker 1: zero four six seven four two thousand. Nancy Grace Crime
47:18
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