Latest / The Father's Business Podcast / Conversations #4: Can You Trust God When Life Doesn’t Make Sense? | Sovereignty & Providence

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Conversations #4: Can You Trust God When Life Doesn’t Make Sense? | Sovereignty & Providence · The Father's Business Podcast

0:04
SPEAKER_01: Hey friends, I'm Kimberly.
0:07
SPEAKER_01: And I'm Elizabeth, and this is the Father's Business Podcast, born out of Sylvia Gunter's heart for people to know who God is and who they are in him.
0:15
SPEAKER_00: So wherever you're listening from today, we pray that you will sense his nearness and know that you are his beloved sons and daughters.
0:23
SPEAKER_00: We're really glad you're here with us today.
0:27
SPEAKER_00: Well, hi everyone.
0:28
SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to our podcast.
0:30
SPEAKER_00: We're glad you're with us today.
0:31
SPEAKER_00: Sadly, Elizabeth and I are not sitting on the same couch anymore, but we are still continuing in our conversations as we love to have them.
0:40
SPEAKER_00: And so what we're gonna talk about today is we want to elaborate a little bit on God's sovereignty as Providence's provision.
0:46
SPEAKER_00: We kind of stumbled upon this conversation when we were having a Marco Polo conversation one day.
0:51
SPEAKER_00: Let's see how many times I can use the word conversation in this conversation.
0:54
SPEAKER_00: Really, where it started was I just happened to say that I think it's easier for me to trust in God's provision than his sovereignty.
1:01
SPEAKER_00: And so we broke that down a little bit, and you can go back and listen to that podcast and the ones that have followed after that if you're interested in where today's conversation is coming from.
1:09
SPEAKER_00: So today we really want to define what we mean when we talk about these characteristics of God.
1:14
SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna start by talking about what does God's sovereignty really mean?
1:19
SPEAKER_00: So, Elizabeth, that's where I'm gonna kick it off to you and say, talk about that a little bit and help us understand.
1:23
SPEAKER_00: So we're on the same page.
1:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think definitions are important.
1:27
SPEAKER_01: We we've been using the word sovereignty and been using the word providence, kind of bouncing back and forth between those two.
1:32
SPEAKER_01: And there is a bit of a distinction between those.
1:35
SPEAKER_01: And that's honestly, I think, where the struggle sometimes comes for people who are saying, I don't believe in God's sovereignty, or I struggle with the concept of God's sovereignty.
1:46
SPEAKER_01: Sovereignty is just complete power, complete control.
1:50
SPEAKER_01: Like if you are a sovereign over a nation, you have the final say.
1:54
SPEAKER_01: Think through history of kings, queens, dictators, other people who have been in power, and they are sovereign.
2:02
SPEAKER_01: So God can do whatever he wants.
2:04
SPEAKER_01: And that's that's the part that's easy for me to really latch on to is God is so much bigger and greater and other than, and God is God and I am not.
2:14
SPEAKER_01: There's several scriptures in the Bible, Kimberly, that talk about God's sovereignty.
2:19
SPEAKER_01: You know, Job 42.2 says, I know that you can do all things and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
2:25
SPEAKER_01: Or Psalm 115.3 says, Our God is in the heavens, he does as he pleases.
2:30
SPEAKER_01: So I think it's well established in scripture.
2:33
SPEAKER_01: God is God, God is in control, his purposes will prevail.
2:37
SPEAKER_01: But where I think we are going to struggle more is this idea of providence.
2:40
SPEAKER_01: And full disclosure, the word providence is not in the Bible, much like the word Trinity is not in the Bible and other concepts that we talk about in the Christian life.
2:48
SPEAKER_01: It's not specifically defined in the Bible what providence is, but our understanding for this conversation, it is control, but it's mixed with wisdom, grace, mercy, care, all the other characteristics of who God is.
3:04
SPEAKER_01: And so it is a sovereign God who is not just doing it because he can, but there is a deeper wisdom, there's deeper understanding, there's a deeper purpose to all the things that are unfolding.
3:18
SPEAKER_01: And so we have kind of bounced back and forth between sovereignty and providence, and I think we'll continue to do that.
3:23
SPEAKER_01: But there is a distinct difference between someone who is just in charge and making choices out of their own selfish ambition versus someone who has the power but is using that mixed with wisdom and grace and justice and mercy.
3:39
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's where we we actually, when you get in a conversation with people where they're like, I'm not sure I believe in the sovereignty of God.
3:46
SPEAKER_01: I mean, look at the world around us.
3:48
SPEAKER_01: Like even when you and I started this conversation, Kimberly, the global world looked a little different.
3:53
SPEAKER_01: Now we're in the midst of bombings and wars and people dying and lots of global things going on, much less the things going on in our own lives where we're like, I don't really know that I understand God's choices.
4:06
SPEAKER_01: But when the people talk about sovereignty, I think their struggle is with the choice that is being made rather than does he have the power to do something different?
4:16
SPEAKER_00: The truth is, God's sovereignty means he's not asking for our permission.
4:21
SPEAKER_00: He's just choosing to do something because he's God and we're not, and he has the power.
4:26
SPEAKER_00: And because we can trust that he's a good God, we hope we can trust in that power.
4:30
SPEAKER_00: Because the reality is in his providence and in his sovereignty, he is not just reacting to history.
4:37
SPEAKER_00: He's not reacting to the things that happened to us.
4:40
SPEAKER_00: He's not surprised as some people like to think he is.
4:43
SPEAKER_00: I don't think scripture points us in that direction at all.
4:46
SPEAKER_00: I don't think that God is surprised when something happens.
4:49
SPEAKER_00: I think he is directing the world.
4:52
SPEAKER_00: I mean, scripture says that.
4:54
SPEAKER_00: It says Isaiah 46, 10, I declare the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose.
5:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
5:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I also think of Colossians 1, 16 and 17 that says, For by him all things were created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, all things were created through him, for him, and he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
5:20
SPEAKER_01: So somewhere even in the midst of the chaos, whether you're talking globally or personally, of our lives, he's holding it all together.
5:27
SPEAKER_01: But sometimes that's hard to swallow, depending on the circumstances you find yourself in.
5:31
SPEAKER_01: I think the sovereignty of God, if life is going a certain way, is comforting.
5:36
SPEAKER_01: If life is going a different direction, can be disillusioning or frustrating or cause you to have doubt that does God really know what's going on.
5:46
SPEAKER_01: I remember when my dad was in the midst of his Alzheimer's and mom and I were having to care for him and watching my mom, great woman of face.
5:54
SPEAKER_01: Um, I mean, my goodness, we're all here because of her and all that she's written.
5:58
SPEAKER_01: And her just honestly looking at me and saying, Do you really think this is God's best idea?
6:03
SPEAKER_01: You feel the heartache in that.
6:06
SPEAKER_01: Because she knows God is big and can do anything.
6:09
SPEAKER_01: He could have either healed my dad, he could have caused my dad never to have Alzheimer's.
6:14
SPEAKER_01: Like there's a thousand options of what could have happened, but this is the journey we were on.
6:20
SPEAKER_01: And I knew she wasn't really doubting that God was real and that he was big and that he was in charge.
6:26
SPEAKER_01: It was more getting at to the heart of is this really the most loving thing God could do for us?
6:31
SPEAKER_01: And that's a hard question just to wrestle with.
6:33
SPEAKER_00: I think, Elizabeth, that's where this struggle really comes from.
6:37
SPEAKER_00: We know that God is sovereign.
6:39
SPEAKER_00: We know that he is in control.
6:41
SPEAKER_00: And yes, we struggle with it.
6:42
SPEAKER_00: We ask, is it good?
6:43
SPEAKER_00: Is it loving?
6:44
SPEAKER_00: Is this his best?
6:44
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you can hear the heart cry of your mom asking that question and you asking those questions in the midst of those battles.
6:49
SPEAKER_00: And yet, this is also where we have to go, okay, who do we want, do I want me to be in control?
6:56
SPEAKER_00: I mean, being in control and having power aren't the same thing either.
6:59
SPEAKER_01: Right.
7:00
SPEAKER_00: Like I can be in control, but I don't really have the power to do these things.
7:04
SPEAKER_00: And so this is sometimes I think we could we could dive into that conversation of God-centric versus man-centric.
7:11
SPEAKER_00: Oftentimes when things are going well, we want a God who is in control.
7:15
SPEAKER_00: We want to trust someone else to be over the universe, in charge of all things.
7:20
SPEAKER_00: And yet, personally, because I live in my flesh, I am a man and centered on my own pain and problems and hurts, I also want to point my finger at him and blame him when things are going well.
7:33
SPEAKER_00: And there's attention to that, and there's attention in that in scripture, all throughout scripture.
7:37
SPEAKER_00: Paul said in Romans 8.28, which is a verse that's so used and misused, if we're honest.
7:43
SPEAKER_00: And we know that for those who love God, all things work together for good for those who are called according to his purpose.
7:51
SPEAKER_00: There is a greater context to Romans 8.
7:53
SPEAKER_00: It is a beautiful passage that really brings together Genesis and Revelation in so many ways.
7:58
SPEAKER_00: And yet it is plucked out so many times.
8:01
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's gets you a little more worked up than me in some places.
8:05
SPEAKER_00: You know, we we hear people say, well, it's okay.
8:09
SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry that you've lost a loved one, or I'm sorry you're walking through this hard this hard time.
8:13
SPEAKER_00: But remember, God works together for the good of those who are called according to his purpose, you know?
8:17
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, well, okay, but this doesn't feel good.
8:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:21
SPEAKER_00: Right?
8:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think my personal opinion, a lot of times people use Roman 8.28 to make themselves feel better.
8:28
SPEAKER_01: Like they see you hurting and they don't know what to do.
8:31
SPEAKER_01: They don't know what else to say.
8:32
SPEAKER_01: So they just slap Romans 8.28 at you, and I'm like, this is gonna be good someday.
8:37
SPEAKER_01: And there may be some things that we never get the answer to.
8:41
SPEAKER_01: Like there's a phrase that says, somewhere down the road we'll have answers to all the questions.
8:45
SPEAKER_01: I don't believe that.
8:46
SPEAKER_01: I think there's some questions we never get the answer to, and that is part of the otherness of God.
8:51
SPEAKER_01: Yes, it is true.
8:52
SPEAKER_01: Yes, you need to be reminded of it, but at the same time, when you're in the middle of hurting, that may not be the verse that I I want to hear.
8:59
SPEAKER_01: And I remember one time I was actually leaving to move back overseas, and mom was grieving.
9:05
SPEAKER_01: I mean, yeah, she was thrilled and excited I was gonna go live in Romania and serve the Lord or whatever, but her daughter is moving away from home.
9:12
SPEAKER_01: She said, after I drop you at the airport, I'm going over to so-and-so's house.
9:15
SPEAKER_01: And I was clearly remember asking her, those aren't any of your Romans 828 friends, are they?
9:19
SPEAKER_01: She laughed and she said, No.
9:21
SPEAKER_01: I was like, okay, because this isn't good today.
9:24
SPEAKER_01: This hurts today.
9:24
SPEAKER_01: It hurt me to leave, it hurt her to let me go.
9:27
SPEAKER_01: This is gonna be good later, but we don't need to hear that this is good today.
9:31
SPEAKER_01: We just need to hear, yeah, this one's hard.
9:33
SPEAKER_01: And and I'm sorry, and I'm gonna sit with you in it.
9:35
SPEAKER_01: Because I don't think Jesus always showed up all the time and immediately told people to just, oh, don't worry, it's it's good.
9:43
SPEAKER_01: It's gotta be great.
9:44
SPEAKER_01: I I mean, the very famous shortest verse in the Bible is Jesus wept.
9:48
SPEAKER_01: He showed up and he cried with people first before then moving them into a bigger perspective.
9:53
SPEAKER_01: And I think we also need to talk a little bit, Kimberly, about what does the word good mean?
9:57
SPEAKER_01: It works for the good.
9:58
SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, my definition of good is a lack of pain.
10:03
SPEAKER_01: It's ease, it's things going the way I want them to.
10:06
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's that's good to me, but that may not be God's definition of good.
10:11
SPEAKER_01: In some ways, I don't think we can understand God's definition of good because of the otherness of who God is.
10:17
SPEAKER_01: He is playing on such a higher level, it says in the scriptures, his ways are not our ways.
10:21
SPEAKER_01: So how are we going to fully understand even what the word good means?
10:26
SPEAKER_00: In Hebrew, the word tove is the word good.
10:29
SPEAKER_00: And from some things that I've read, I know that that's connected to divine purposes.
10:33
SPEAKER_00: Again, I can take comfort in that, and yet I can wrestle with that because I'm human.
10:37
SPEAKER_00: But but knowing that God's good, he is tove, he is good.
10:42
SPEAKER_00: That is his divine purpose.
10:44
SPEAKER_00: He will see the higher quality, the moral excellence, the goodness, the beauty out of his divine purposes.
10:50
SPEAKER_00: And so our definition of good sometimes isn't his definition.
10:54
SPEAKER_00: And there's just tension in that.
10:56
SPEAKER_00: We can't make sense of it.
10:57
SPEAKER_00: We can't make sense of it.
10:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I I think that goes back to the core of what we're talking about, which is our struggle is not can he do something?
11:05
SPEAKER_01: It's what he's choosing to do.
11:07
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
11:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, his he's doing it for his higher purpose, he's got a higher glory, he's got uh he's got a long-term plan.
11:13
SPEAKER_01: I can get behind that.
11:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's a bigger story being written than just me.
11:18
SPEAKER_01: But even in my chapter, could we not have written the chapter differently and still gotten to the same end at the end?
11:24
SPEAKER_01: And and that is that is where throughout scripture people wrestled with God.
11:28
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, even David, who was a man after God's own heart, there's so much of the Psalms that's like, why have you done this to me?
11:34
SPEAKER_01: Why have you abandoned me?
11:35
SPEAKER_01: Why are you making me struggle so much?
11:37
SPEAKER_01: Paul, you know, begged God to take a a thorn away.
11:41
SPEAKER_01: We don't even know what exactly that is, but he's like, I I came to him several times and asked him to remove it, and he didn't.
11:47
SPEAKER_01: And so there's a lot of people who are God's friends, you know, people that God thinks very highly of, that he didn't do it the way that they felt that it could be done, and yet it was good.
11:59
SPEAKER_00: We're thinking of the story in John 11 with Lazarus.
12:02
SPEAKER_00: Jesus receives word that his friend Lazarus is sick, and instead of leaving immediately, Jesus waits.
12:09
SPEAKER_00: That's what John 11 sticks.
12:11
SPEAKER_00: So when he heard that Lazarus was ill, he stayed two days longer in the place where he was.
12:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:17
SPEAKER_00: Okay, like if I get a call that someone's sick, I don't think I'm gonna hang out for two days, and that scripture's gonna note that.
12:25
SPEAKER_00: Like John wrote that down, right?
12:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:28
SPEAKER_00: So by the time Jesus arrives, John 11, 21, Martha says, Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.
12:39
SPEAKER_00: Mary says the same thing.
12:40
SPEAKER_00: And a couple verses later, verse 32 Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.
12:44
SPEAKER_00: So you've got both of both the sisters saying that.
12:47
SPEAKER_00: They're saying, Why didn't you come sooner?
12:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:50
SPEAKER_00: Why why weren't you here?
12:52
SPEAKER_00: Earlier in the chapter, John says, Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus.
12:58
SPEAKER_01: They were like some of his best friends.
13:00
SPEAKER_01: Right.
13:00
SPEAKER_01: Like that's that's where he would go to hang out when he needed to be restored.
13:04
SPEAKER_01: So he loved them and he waited.
13:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
13:10
SPEAKER_01: That that one is another one.
13:12
SPEAKER_01: Along with Romans 8.28, this is another one that I I have often struggled with.
13:17
SPEAKER_01: Jesus knew what was going to happen.
13:19
SPEAKER_01: He knew how much pain it was going to cause them.
13:21
SPEAKER_01: I mean, he also knew it's not a death unto the end.
13:25
SPEAKER_01: He is going to bring him back.
13:27
SPEAKER_01: But he knew a very dark valley he was going to take his friends through.
13:32
SPEAKER_01: And also he didn't like the minute Lazarus died, he didn't immediately pray and have him resurrected.
13:38
SPEAKER_01: Lazarus was buried.
13:39
SPEAKER_01: Like we've been through the grieving of losing the brother.
13:44
SPEAKER_01: And all that time that they're doing all that, Mary and Martha are sitting there going, but we sent word to Jesus.
13:50
SPEAKER_01: We told him we needed him.
13:52
SPEAKER_01: And it's like he didn't show up.
13:54
SPEAKER_01: That is the crux, I think, of what we're talking about in this podcast about struggling with God's sovereignty is yes, I can believe you're in control, but do I trust your heart towards me?
14:05
SPEAKER_01: Is the real question.
14:06
SPEAKER_01: Not do I trust that you have all power because you waited.
14:10
SPEAKER_01: Because he loved them, he waited.
14:14
SPEAKER_01: Those feel like two contradictory thoughts.
14:17
SPEAKER_00: But they're not.
14:18
SPEAKER_00: They're not.
14:18
SPEAKER_00: But he also wept with them.
14:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:22
SPEAKER_01: Knowing what he was about to do, he wept with them.
14:25
SPEAKER_01: I got a lot of questions.
14:26
SPEAKER_01: I know.
14:27
SPEAKER_00: I'm waiting, I'm not showing up, I'm going to raise him from the dead, and I'm going to weep with them and grieve with them.
14:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:33
SPEAKER_00: He does say in verse um John 11, 14 and 15, he tells the disciples, Lazarus has died, and for your sake I am glad that I was not there, so that you may believe.
14:47
SPEAKER_00: So it looked like a horrible, painful delay, and yet it was a part of a larger purpose for him.
14:54
SPEAKER_00: And that's where he is God and I am not, and he is good, and yet we can't make sense of it.
15:01
SPEAKER_00: Right.
15:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
15:02
SPEAKER_01: And that that is the beauty and also the struggle.
15:06
SPEAKER_01: Because I don't want a God I can fully understand.
15:08
SPEAKER_01: Because if I fully understand everything about him, he's too small.
15:12
SPEAKER_01: If my human mind can totally comprehend who God is and why he does everything, then my God is way too small.
15:19
SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, we titled our episode two episodes ago, I'd like to speak with management.
15:25
SPEAKER_01: This is where I'm like, okay, yes, I am so glad that people came to believe.
15:30
SPEAKER_01: I'm so glad there was evidence that you could raise people from the dead.
15:34
SPEAKER_01: But aren't there like a dozen other people we could have done this with?
15:38
SPEAKER_01: Like, what why did it have to be?
15:40
SPEAKER_01: Your best friends who have loved you and cared for you and been there for you.
15:45
SPEAKER_01: But what we don't know in scripture and may never know, maybe we find out later in eternity, is obviously God was also doing something in the heart of Mary, Martha, and Lazarus.
15:55
SPEAKER_01: So that part is not written in Scripture, but I don't think anything is wasted, even as much as I'm the one who probably vocalizes more than most.
16:03
SPEAKER_01: I'd like to talk to management.
16:04
SPEAKER_01: I also believe somehow, in a way, I do not understand this all makes sense.
16:10
SPEAKER_01: And that's where we have to kind of stop and worship because he is so other than.
16:14
SPEAKER_01: And from our human perspective, this doesn't feel kind or fair or good.
16:18
SPEAKER_01: Yet we're we believe because of scripture, this was God's best idea.
16:22
SPEAKER_01: This was the best plan for this moment for this family and for his disciples, and ultimately for us, because we get to benefit from their story because it's in scripture and it helps us understand our faith.
16:35
SPEAKER_00: I I I can know and I can believe that he is not, that God is not a God of neglect.
16:41
SPEAKER_00: He's not abandoning me.
16:43
SPEAKER_00: And yet I have to reconcile all of my feelings and my emotions and my thoughts in the in my human flesh and myself with those truths of who he is, because they're not gonna come naturally when I'm in the depths of pain sometimes.
16:58
SPEAKER_00: And that's the hard part, I think, too, is like sometimes it's easy for me or for others to say, well, of course we can look at Lazarus and we can say that, or of course we can look at the, you know, at David or whichever Bible character we want to look at, whichever Bible story we want to look at.
17:11
SPEAKER_00: Of course we can look at that and say, I mean, God wrapped it up.
17:13
SPEAKER_00: We saw the conclusion.
17:15
SPEAKER_00: I don't see the conclusion today.
17:16
SPEAKER_00: I still can't say, here's the good, ultimate good that came from losing this person.
17:22
SPEAKER_00: Here's the ultimate good that came from this horrible hardship.
17:25
SPEAKER_00: I can sometimes will myself to find small things, but ultimately, some, I mean, most of the time, most people would say, I don't I can't find it yet, but I'm I'm trying to, I'm trying to.
17:35
SPEAKER_00: And and Elizabeth, I think if we're honest, that's where like at the end of the day, it really does just boil down to this faith.
17:42
SPEAKER_00: God, I know that your character is this.
17:45
SPEAKER_00: A B C, X, Y, Z, you know, it's all of this.
17:48
SPEAKER_00: And I want to trust in your goodness because I know that you love me.
17:52
SPEAKER_00: I know you're not abandoning me.
17:53
SPEAKER_00: I know you're not neglecting me.
17:54
SPEAKER_00: I know you're looking out for me.
17:56
SPEAKER_00: I know you care for me.
17:56
SPEAKER_00: I know you love me.
17:58
SPEAKER_00: And we have to cling to the truth of who he is.
18:00
SPEAKER_00: That's part of the Christian life, part of like the whole thing is based on faith.
18:06
SPEAKER_00: It's based on trust.
18:07
SPEAKER_00: We won't wrestle through these things without having faith and wrestling through the faith, of sometimes not reconciling it.
18:14
SPEAKER_00: And I mean, that's part of my story is I had to just give up reconciling it.
18:18
SPEAKER_00: I had to surrender my desire for making sense of it.
18:22
SPEAKER_01: Right.
18:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
18:23
SPEAKER_00: And trust.
18:23
SPEAKER_00: God, I still know you're good, even though this didn't look good.
18:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
18:27
SPEAKER_01: And I mean think about it, it's not in scripture, but okay, so Lazarus comes back from the dead.
18:32
SPEAKER_01: They have their brother back.
18:33
SPEAKER_01: That doesn't erase the emotions of what those two women and that whole community went through.
18:38
SPEAKER_01: So they got their answer to prayer, and yet there had to have been some emotions still of, well, thank you, Jesus, for giving us our brother back.
18:47
SPEAKER_01: But that does not erase my complex emotions about the way you went about doing it.
18:52
SPEAKER_01: You didn't have to do it that way.
18:54
SPEAKER_01: And so I I would love to sit down and have a talk with Mary and Martha.
18:57
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, just an honest conversation about how they, as you're talking about, you get to a point where you just have to like park some of that and go, okay, I am human.
19:06
SPEAKER_01: I only see part of the story.
19:07
SPEAKER_01: And that and that is the hope for us in our situations we're in, just like Mary and Martha, they were in the middle of the story.
19:14
SPEAKER_01: While we have the Bible saying, here's what Jesus was doing, and this is why we have all the purpose written out where we can read it.
19:21
SPEAKER_01: Mary and Martha did not.
19:22
SPEAKER_01: They were in the middle of the story and continue to live in the middle of the story.
19:26
SPEAKER_01: And who knows, Jesus may have sat him down and said, Okay, here's why I did it.
19:30
SPEAKER_01: But you and I have talked about wouldn't it be nice for Jesus to come down, have a cup of coffee and go, here's what I'm up to in your life?
19:35
SPEAKER_01: And then we immediately go, but even if he did, I'm not sure I'd fully understand what he's doing because he is God and I am not.
19:41
SPEAKER_01: And so that's what you're talking about, Kimberly.
19:43
SPEAKER_01: It's that being able to lean into who he is more so than what he's doing and trusting in the character.
19:50
SPEAKER_01: And we talk a lot about that around here, that we are passionate about people understanding who God is and who they are in him.
19:56
SPEAKER_01: And so, whatever story globally, which I don't understand what's going on in the world right now, and I do not have any answers for what do you think God is up to?
20:05
SPEAKER_01: Someone asked me that last week and I was like, I have no idea.
20:08
SPEAKER_01: But what I know is I need to cling close to him and trust him and trust his time, timing, seasons, whatever whatever is going on.
20:17
SPEAKER_01: God has not changed just because circumstances globally have changed.
20:20
SPEAKER_01: And also in our own personal lives.
20:22
SPEAKER_01: Do I fully understand the story that I'm living in right now?
20:26
SPEAKER_01: No.
20:27
SPEAKER_01: Have I asked God to change some things?
20:30
SPEAKER_01: And if you're asking for my input, I would prefer my life to look a little bit more like this, or I'd love my children to be this way, or husband, whatever career, whatever your wherever your struggle is.
20:41
SPEAKER_01: But I have to just come back to leaning in and trusting the character of who he is and knowing God is God and I am not, and he's not cruel.
20:52
SPEAKER_01: He he is love.
20:53
SPEAKER_01: It's not just that God loves me, God is love and God is good.
20:58
SPEAKER_01: Like if every characteristic we can think of of him, it's not just his behavior, it's who he is.
21:04
SPEAKER_01: And so learning to just keep centering myself in that and going, okay, I don't get it.
21:10
SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like the disciples said to Jesus at one point, where else am I gonna go?
21:14
SPEAKER_01: Like, I mean, who who else has the the words of life that that we need?
21:19
SPEAKER_01: So I may not agree with management, but he is a loving father and he is a faithful friend, even when he doesn't feel like he's being a friend.
21:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:30
SPEAKER_00: I was thinking as you were talking too about Mary and Martha, you know, at the end of the day, Lazarus was brought back to life.
21:35
SPEAKER_00: He still died again.
21:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:37
SPEAKER_00: Because we all do.
21:39
unknown: Yeah.
21:40
SPEAKER_00: And I don't I don't know when that was.
21:42
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if it was before Mary or Martha.
21:44
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if it was after.
21:45
SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't know.
21:46
SPEAKER_00: Maybe we could go look it up somewhere.
21:47
SPEAKER_00: At the end of the day, it's not given to us in our in our scripture that we have, right?
21:51
SPEAKER_00: And so Yeah, we don't know what we don't know, right?
21:54
SPEAKER_00: We don't know what's going to unfold based on what we do ask for.
21:57
SPEAKER_00: And if we could be in control, then what happened on that side of things?
22:00
SPEAKER_00: Don't know.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: So it does, it does leave us with a lot of questions, always more questions than answers, and that's that's okay.
22:05
SPEAKER_00: It's like you said, to trust in the character of who he is and not his actions.
22:08
SPEAKER_00: The essence of who he is will be displayed in his actions.
22:12
SPEAKER_00: We just only have a small picture of that.
22:14
SPEAKER_00: He is outside of time.
22:15
SPEAKER_00: So we have to keep that in mind too.
22:17
SPEAKER_00: We're looking, like you said, in the middle of a story.
22:19
SPEAKER_00: We're looking at a window of time, and he has all of time.
22:23
SPEAKER_01: Right.
22:24
SPEAKER_01: I do think we do need to ask a question I think maybe a lot of people may be asking.
22:28
SPEAKER_01: There's people that have been through some pretty horrific things that it doesn't feel like there's any goodness in it at all.
22:33
SPEAKER_01: And so, not that you or I are gonna have an answer, but it does make me think about the story of Joseph in the Old Testament where he's sold into slavery and then accused of raping someone when he didn't rape anybody and thrown in prison and and all these things.
22:47
SPEAKER_01: And then we know, because we see the whole story, he ends up in a in a position of great power, not that he's able to not only save himself but his family and his nation in the midst of a famine.
22:58
SPEAKER_01: And there's a verse in there that Joseph says in Genesis 50, 20 that says, As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be able to be kept alive.
23:09
SPEAKER_01: And that is a perspective you can see sometimes after an event is over.
23:14
SPEAKER_01: Kimberly, what are your thoughts?
23:16
SPEAKER_01: How how do we struggle through?
23:17
SPEAKER_01: There are some things in this life that just feel absolutely evil.
23:21
SPEAKER_01: And yet, if we're saying God is sovereign and and God has providence, how do we struggle through that?
23:26
SPEAKER_01: And there are theologians that have studied this for years, and there is not a correct answer to this question, but I think we need to acknowledge that for people who are listening to this, that there are some things that are absolutely evil.
23:38
SPEAKER_00: And where is God in that?
23:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, there are people that have parted ways and split ways over this idea of how scripture addresses God's will and what he saw and what he ordains and what he predestines and what he knows.
23:50
SPEAKER_00: Lots of different theological perspectives on that that we try to compartmentalize and wrap our minds around as mere people.
23:55
SPEAKER_00: And the truth from my perspective is that sin still exists.
24:00
SPEAKER_00: In Genesis, sin was allowed to enter into the world.
24:04
SPEAKER_00: Why?
24:05
SPEAKER_00: I I don't know, but sin exists.
24:07
SPEAKER_00: Now, I don't believe there's a phrase, sin rules and reigns, right?
24:10
SPEAKER_00: I've I've heard that before, sin rules and reigns.
24:12
SPEAKER_00: I don't believe that sin is greater than God theologically.
24:15
SPEAKER_00: I don't believe that scripture or the world, the earth, points to that truth.
24:20
SPEAKER_00: And yet I believe that sin is powerful.
24:23
SPEAKER_00: I believe that the enemy, that's Satan, is powerful.
24:26
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
24:27
SPEAKER_00: I believe that the works of the evil, one and ones, are powerful.
24:31
SPEAKER_00: And I believe that there is a constant war being fought that will continue to be fought where evil wants to win out over God.
24:39
SPEAKER_00: And I think we're still in the middle of that.
24:42
SPEAKER_00: So I don't know, and I'm we're not gonna have good answers because I don't know that there are good answers for why does God not just stop all of that and take us back to Eden before sin?
24:51
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
24:52
SPEAKER_00: I do know.
24:52
SPEAKER_00: I'm not, I'm not ever gonna pretend to say to something horrific, God allowed that to happen to you, and I hope it works out for your good.
24:59
SPEAKER_00: He meant it for your good.
25:00
SPEAKER_00: That is not, I don't want anyone saying to that to me about a simple, and I'm gonna say simple and I don't mean simple, but about the simple death of a loved one, much less a horrific tragedy that occurred to you or someone you love or something in this world.
25:12
SPEAKER_00: There are some things that are that should not be allowed, and I don't know why they are, but there is evidence that evil wants to rule and reign, is gonna seek its, seek its best to rule and reign, and wants to take out God and wants to take us out as people who follow him.
25:28
SPEAKER_00: And I believe that sin exists and that evil exists, and that there are powers of evil that are just dark and horrendous and damaging and painful.
25:38
SPEAKER_00: And I just to anyone who's listening to this that has lived in that or lived through that, I am so sorry.
25:46
SPEAKER_00: And I pray that that God will show up and and love you through through it and in it.
25:53
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what a greater answer to that.
25:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
25:55
SPEAKER_00: Do you do you have additional thoughts for that?
25:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, just what's bubbling up as you're talking is going back to, you know, John 11 and Lazarus.
26:02
SPEAKER_01: Death was not supposed to be a part of the plan either.
26:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
26:05
SPEAKER_01: Pre-fall.
26:06
SPEAKER_01: And so death is a consequence of sin and and and all the corruption that entered the world.
26:14
SPEAKER_01: And so when Lazarus died, Jesus wept.
26:17
SPEAKER_01: Do I have answers for why God allows it to happen?
26:21
SPEAKER_01: No.
26:22
SPEAKER_01: But I do believe that even in those darkest places where you have experienced horrific things, God's response is to weep with you and to have compassion on you and to be there to help bind your broken heart.
26:36
SPEAKER_01: And I think any questions or anger, especially, you know, thinking of abuse or other situations like that, any questions or anger of, okay, it's great for you to be here to help bind me back together and to heal me and whatever, but where were you when it was happening?
26:51
SPEAKER_01: I mean, th those are honest questions that I that I think only God can answer.
26:56
SPEAKER_01: And I don't know that his answer would fully make sense.
26:58
SPEAKER_01: But I I totally resonate with what you're saying, Kimberly, is I do believe there is a prince of power of principalities of this world.
27:05
SPEAKER_01: And there is a lot of evil.
27:07
SPEAKER_01: And his number one thing, as we've talked about before, also found in John, is to kill, steal, and destroy.
27:13
SPEAKER_01: We do live in the midst of a war and a battle, but the great news is that in the end God wins.
27:19
SPEAKER_01: And I don't fully begin to understand any of that at its depth and its core, but just to agree with you that for whatever hardship we've been through, it wasn't that God was not present.
27:30
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't that he was not able.
27:33
SPEAKER_01: But that goes to the otherness of God.
27:35
SPEAKER_01: But I know his response is compassion and to weep with those that are in dark places.
27:40
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's where a lot of people want to cry out, Come, Lord Jesus, come, as we see evil and as we walk through these things or we see others walk through these things, we just want to cry out, Come, Lord Jesus, come, because we see the darkness.
27:54
SPEAKER_00: It is our days, and it's been in a lot of days.
27:56
SPEAKER_00: It was Nero burning people as lamppost, and it was, I mean, that's always the picture in my mind of there's been a lot, a lot of dark days in history.
28:04
SPEAKER_00: History's a long purview.
28:06
SPEAKER_01: Yes, it is.
28:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
28:08
SPEAKER_00: I think part of that history also is the scriptural history where even in the Old Testament, Job took his questions to God.
28:16
SPEAKER_00: Let's see, in Job 38, 4, God says to him, Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
28:24
SPEAKER_00: And I would, I'm not trying to be rude here or sacrilegious, but I would want to look at God and go, That's your answer to me.
28:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:32
SPEAKER_00: Like, duh, I wasn't there when you laid the foundation of the earth, and I asked a question.
28:38
SPEAKER_00: But I am genuinely also saying we want those explanations.
28:43
SPEAKER_00: That's what helps us to trust, and yet faith is belief in the midst of not having those explanations.
28:50
SPEAKER_00: History has a long purview of darkness and of despair, and yet God has laid the foundation of the earth.
28:57
SPEAKER_00: And if you are walking through that, we do not simply entitly say, turn to him and he'll answer your questions and meet you with love.
29:05
SPEAKER_00: We know the character of who he is, and we pray that he will do that for you.
29:10
SPEAKER_00: Elizabeth, you said it earlier.
29:11
SPEAKER_00: He he will show up with compassion, and we pray that he does that for you.
29:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he he promises that he will be near to those that are brokenhearted and be close to those that are crushed in spirit.
29:22
SPEAKER_01: And Kimberly, you and I both in our own ways have experienced seasons of being crushed in spirit, and there is nothing more painful than those seasons.
29:31
SPEAKER_01: And it feels like he's lost your email address, forgotten your phone number, and he is nowhere to be found.
29:39
SPEAKER_01: And you have to just choose in those moments that I don't feel like you're with me, but I'm going to trust the character of God that you are.
29:47
SPEAKER_01: And you know, you're talking about the the purview of history being so long, thinking back to, you know, you mentioned Nero and others.
29:55
SPEAKER_01: Early Christians at that time were pretty sure that was the end of the world.
29:59
SPEAKER_01: This is it.
30:00
SPEAKER_01: You know, and it it was, it was awful.
30:02
SPEAKER_01: I mean, they were lighting people on fire for following Christ.
30:06
SPEAKER_01: But look how many more seasons of history have happened since then.
30:09
SPEAKER_01: And there may be some people that think, well, now, now surely, truly, we are close to the end here.
30:14
SPEAKER_01: Maybe maybe not.
30:17
SPEAKER_01: But what hasn't changed through all of those different seasons is God.
30:22
SPEAKER_01: He is the same God that he was for Joseph and Abraham and all the heroes of the faith in the Old Testament as Jesus was to those when he walked with them in the New Testament.
30:32
SPEAKER_01: As you walk through the history of the church and you watch him show up and be faithful, not always making it easy, not always saying there won't be suffering, but he shows up.
30:44
SPEAKER_01: For some of us today, that's what we're just gonna have to hold on to is God, I don't see you, God, I don't feel you, but I trust that you're in this too.
30:52
SPEAKER_01: And maybe down the road I'll understand, or maybe down the road, God will just say to me the same thing you said to Job.
30:57
SPEAKER_01: Where were you when I created the earth?
30:59
SPEAKER_01: And I don't think that was a harsh rebuke of Job at all.
31:03
SPEAKER_01: I think it was a reframing for Job's mind.
31:06
SPEAKER_01: Because when we're in pain and in suffering, or we're asking questions about why didn't God do things differently, our world can get very small and we lose perspective.
31:14
SPEAKER_01: And honestly, bringing your questions to him is the first step.
31:17
SPEAKER_01: We talk a lot about alignment around here, about having our spirit, soul, and body in a line with Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and bringing your emotions and your questions to God and asking, just like Job, like, excuse me, if you're God, why have I lost everybody except for my wife and all of my wealth and all of my children and all of my stuff?
31:35
SPEAKER_01: Like, what how is this good?
31:37
SPEAKER_01: And so the first step in alignment of bringing your heart to him to be healed is to come with your honest emotions and questions and then allow God to either say, Where were you when I created the earth or give you comfort or both, but allow him to reframe and lift your gaze back up to God is God and I am not, and I'm gonna trust even though I don't know.
32:03
SPEAKER_01: Which leads us back to our favorite phrase, Kimberly, the moon is round.
32:06
SPEAKER_01: We say that with tears in our eyes sometimes because it hurts so bad, but trust in the character of God.
32:13
SPEAKER_01: And so we hope that everyone who's listening today will be invited into that same invitation to just lean into who he is, get to know his character, so therefore you can trust in who he is rather than what he's doing.
32:26
SPEAKER_00: And you can join us for part two of this conversation because we have defined and discussed sovereignty and providence, but we were also still talking about God's provision.
32:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, another way to trust.
32:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:39
SPEAKER_00: So we will continue that conversation soon.
32:42
SPEAKER_00: So join us then too.
32:43
SPEAKER_01: This podcast is made possible through donations by people like you.
32:48
SPEAKER_01: To donate, go to www.thefathersbusiness.com.
32:52
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