Latest / How to Faith a Life Podcast with Faith Womack / Why Aren't More Women Going to Seminary: The Theology Gap Robbing the Church

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Why Aren't More Women Going to Seminary: The Theology Gap Robbing the Church · How to Faith a Life Podcast with Faith Womack

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: If you're listening to the How to Faith a Life Podcast, where we wrestle with questions on how to live a life of faith, from everything from books to Bible studies, even Bible study tips.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: This is your place to wrestle with the hard questions and dive deep into what scripture really says for the Christian walk.
• 0:12
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• 0:16
  SPEAKER_02: Review this podcast so other people can find it and share with other believers who want to ask the hard questions.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: Now, with all that said, let's begin.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_02: Hi friends, welcome back to the How to Faith a Life Podcast, the Ministry of Bible Neurum Ministries.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: Today I have a new friend with me that I'm so excited to have a conversation with.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: Sharon Hottie Miller is a mom.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: She's an author.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: She does ministry in the Durham area at Bright City Church.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: We bumped into each other at a TV like show recording and started talking, could not stop talking.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_02: She is just so down to earth, loves Jesus so big, and loves people like Jesus.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: And so I immediately was like, she is somebody that I want to have a conversation with because I think you Bible nerds are going to love her just as much as me.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: Sharon, welcome to the podcast.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's so fun to be with you, especially selfishly.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm excited just to have more time talking to you.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: Can you share a little bit what you've written on?
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I did my PhD at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School in the Chicago area.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: And the topic of my doctoral research was why evangelical women go to seminary.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason I was curious about this topic is first of all, I did my Master of Divinity at Duke Divinity School.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: And there was probably like an equal number of men and women there.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: But when I got to Trinity, I started to notice that there were a lot fewer women there.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: And then when I started looking into it, I realized that nationwide at the time, and this was close to 10 years or over 10 years ago now, at the time, nationwide in seminaries, women made up only about 30% of MDiv students.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: But at evangelical seminaries, it was even less.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so at first I was kind of curious about why that was, like why so few women who were called to ministry got formal training for it.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: But then I thought, you know, I don't want to do a whole project focusing on the negative.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: I would really like to focus on the positive, like among the women who make that choice to steward their calling by getting formal training.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: What worked?
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like what were the factors in place that encouraged them to take that step when so few of their peers make the same decision?
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: For doctoral research, you have to narrow your focus pretty significantly.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so I focused on evangelical women.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: And then I actually did my research at complementarian seminaries.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so for people listening, that means these were seminaries where women were not necessarily training to become pastors.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: They just wanted to steward their calling.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: And that was really important for me as well because I I wanted to really like the question underneath the question was how do we steward the full body of Christ?
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how do we steward the gifts of women in the church so that we are living into that vision in 1 Corinthians 12 of being this body of many parts?
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I wanted my findings to be applicable regardless of your convictions about women in ministry.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: So, so even if you're complimentarian, that like how does this still, how do we still steward that half of the body?
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so I went to these different seminaries and I interviewed women and I just looked for common denominators.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like what are the factors that I kept hearing over and over again because I knew those are the things that we can replicate to encourage more women to steward their calling.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the in a nutshell version of my research.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_02: I find that when I share that I went to seminary, um, a lot of people have like two responses.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: They either say, Wow, like I didn't know you were pastor, I don't really want to watch you anymore, like that that makes me uncomfortable, all those kinds of things, or they say, How did you do it?
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_02: You had a baby at home, you were waking up at 4 a.m.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how, how, why would you make those kind of sacrifices?
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, when I was just an undergrad getting a Bible degree, my roommate was like, Why are you doing this?
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_02: What practically you're just going into debt for no good reason.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like you can't get a job from this, right?
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_02: So, what did you find?
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: What were some of those common threads?
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the first reason that I heard again and again and again, and this is the one factor that cannot be replicated because it only comes from the Holy Spirit.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: And the thing that I heard over and over again from all of these women was this deep sense of calling.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: Now, they their stories were never the same.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: Just in the same way in scripture, we have so many different stories of calling.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: They're they're never the same.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: But you had these Abraham stories of women who knew they were called, but they didn't really know where they were going.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: You had these Jonah stories of women who ran from their calling for years and years.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: There was no one who just woke up one morning and it was as if they thought, you know what I would like to do?
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: I would like to go to seminary.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: But there, but there were there was a usually a wrestling, but a very deep sense of calling from God.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: And that is why so many of them went to seminary, even though it very often did not make sense.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like financially, it was very challenging, or if they had children.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so that was the first factor that I heard again and again was just the sense of calling.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: But in terms of the factors that we can can replicate, this was my favorite, I would say, was how many of them, every single person I talked to could name one person, and usually it was multiple people who had identified her gifts or her calling, who had said, you know, have you thought about seminary?
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: I see this in you.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: Have you thought about seminary?
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're very gifted at understanding the Bible.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like one example that feels very relevant for our conversation.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I can't remember if I told you this story or not when we talked, but I love it so much.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: There was this one young woman, she was in Bible college.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: She was taking a New Testament class, and she said that her New Testament professor had asked her to stay after school or stay after class one day.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so she stays back and he said to her, Have you thought about going to seminary?
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: Because I've noticed you you're just very gifted at understanding and explaining scripture.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: And she had never thought about it before, and it probably took five minutes of this professor's time, but it changed the course of her life.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so just hearing story after story of youth pastors or grandparents, I mean, it didn't really matter.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: But what I realized is that this is actually how, and in seminary aside, this is one of the primary ways that the Holy Spirit directs people to the place that God has appointed for them in the church is through his church.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's really important for women to hear because whenever someone gives us positive feedback, either you're really good at teaching or you're very wise, or you have a gift of encouragement, or a gift of administration, or whatever it is.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have to be this like church leadership gift, whatever it is.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think that women, too often, what we do is we sort of brush it off as, oh, they're just being really nice.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like it's flattery.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: And we just walk away, like we don't do anything with that information.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to say to you, to anyone who's listening, if there's some feedback that you have gotten over and over again from different people in your life, especially believers, they aren't just being nice.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like that is the Holy Spirit speaking to you and guiding you almost like little breadcrumbs to calling.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so that was a big factor and it has changed me now.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: Whenever I see a gift in someone, you know, whether it's they have a gift of hospitality, a gift of mercy, any gift, if I can see that gift, I'm going to name that gift because I know that is how the Holy Spirit guides people to their calling.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: So that was a big factor.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: Another one was role models, just seeing like the number of people, I think I told you this, but the number of women who said that they went to seminary because they'd seen Beth Moore teach.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, it that was for me too.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like I saw the first time I saw her teach the Bible, it was like something inside of me unlocked.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I realized, wait, this, I think I was actually made to do this as well.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's again, like a very good reminder that you using your gifts is an act of stewardship, not just in the way that you are serving and building the church, but it's also an act of stewardship of modeling for other people that they might have the same gift.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's not just about you.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: So sorting your gifts, using your gifts is not just about you, but all the people who are watching you as well.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so those are just two examples that have really impacted me personally ever since.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_02: Quick pause.
• 9:22
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• 9:25
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• 9:27
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• 9:31
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• 9:34
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• 9:41
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• 9:49
  SPEAKER_02: All right, let's get back to the conversation.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_02: So, what are some of like the conclusions or your takeaways?
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like now that you serve the church, how do you apply what you learned and what you studied and what you wrote about or observed even to the church?
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_02: And what do you think the church is missing today as we disciple women?
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think, again, so many people think about it as like, I have to go get a job or make money from this degree.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_02: I can't just like serve the church on YouTube or whatever it is, you know.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like uh, we think about it as just a pastor's thing.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: So, in terms of takeaways, there's a number of different levels of this.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: One level of the takeaways was what does this mean for church leaders who are wanting to cultivate the gifts of people in the church?
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I've already named one of them, which is that you need to have a culture, and this does not just apply to women, like you need to have a culture where you are encouraging your entire church to name one another's gifts.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you see a gift in someone else to speak that.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: And and we know from from Genesis 1 that this is how God creates, you know, his words have power, and as being created in his image, our words have power.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so when you speak, what you see that God has put in another person, you're you're sort of speaking their calling into reality in a sense.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's really, really powerful.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to be on stage to have that kind of power.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: You already have it, being made in the image of God.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's a big takeaway for both church leaders and just members of the church.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: Another takeaway I gave to church leaders is that, and this was another finding that I didn't mention, but a lot of women, they discern their calling through experience.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: So whether they were serving, like leading a Bible study or going on a mission trip or taking a Bible class or whatever it is, they had some experience where they realized, oh, I was actually, I think I might have been made for this.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so making sure that you are, regardless of your convictions about women, you know, making sure that you are creating spaces where women can use their gifts in in different ways.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, a huge one was mentoring.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that can be tricky when you have a male pastor and a female who's learning.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so one person who really impacted me a lot is a guy named Ed Stetzer.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: He used to work at Lifeway and now I think he's at Talbot Seminary.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: But he would create these mentoring groups.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: So he would meet with like a group of women so that he could still, you know, impart his wisdom to them.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: So he didn't feel like he was in this compromising situation, but he still was giving them access to his knowledge.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: But big picture for everyone listening kind of goes back to that vision of 1 Corinthians 12 and the body of Christ and whether or not we take that vision seriously.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like, do we really believe what Paul is saying there?
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because what Paul is saying is that every single member of the body matters.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: And if any member is wounded or sidelined or not participating, that the whole body suffers as a result.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: And that vision lays claim to all of us.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I think too often women have believed that it's the people with the upfront leadership gifts, specifically men, that they're the only ones who like really matter.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: And if I like to study the Bible or, you know, I like theology, that for me it's just for funsies.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's kind of like it doesn't, there's there's no weight to it.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: But one of my favorite interactions I had with another young woman is she was telling me about how much she loved to study Greek.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I told you the story.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: She loves to study Greek, and she thought that going to seminary was selfish because she enjoys studying Greek for fun.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, what what could be the benefit of just spending that much money to go to seminary to do something that she enjoys?
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I looked at her and I said, girl, nobody loves to study Greek.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so if you love to study Greek, it's because God made you that way.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: God put that in you, and He did not put that in you for you, He put that in you for the upbuilding of the church.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so now your responsibility is to be a good steward of what God has put in you because it is not about you.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's kind of the funny mental gymnastics that women often often do is we we think, oh, I'm I'm I'm going to seminary for myself.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's like, no, it's the least selfish thing that you're you're doing.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: The the body will be stronger and better if you steward what God has put inside of you.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, I think in particular for us women, because you know, we are talking a lot about women here, um, we're the ones that are packing the lunches, writing the little note that goes in their lunch.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like we're the ones oftentimes having the conversation on the way home from school.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, in my marriage, my husband's always picking up the boys from school, but you get the idea.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like, we are often having those motherly conversations, those nurturing conversations with our kids.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: And we, more than anybody, need to be theologically educated and have that theological discernment on how to raise men of God, women of God, who actually love the Lord and His Word.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think it's one of the biggest fallacies that the enemy throws at us to think that, oh, it's not as important.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_02: We don't need that education.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: Who who are we to think like, no, I I think we need it the most at times, you know?
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, absolutely.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: Because I kids ask two really hard questions.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I I was I was just thinking about this on when I was driving to work this morning.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: I was just thinking about how I I do think families are the strongest vehicle for discipleship.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like most of the people that I know that were discipled really, really well, they were discipled well, like in their family.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so to have that kind of urgency so that you are equipped that when your kid asks you to explain the trinity and you're sitting there like, How do I explain the trinity to a seven-year-old?
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: Which is so I have an MDIB and a PhD that's still really hard.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, totally.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: Second Timothy uh one, five.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_02: I I think of the faith of your mother, Eunice, and your grandmother, whatever the other name was.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_02: Like, he's like, they raised you in the faith, and it's because of their faith that I'm writing to you today, and because of their faith that has impacted you and made you the man of God that you are today, and the huge impact that you have on the church.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: I that's so telling for the roles of women just at the home, never mind in the church, in the Sunday school classes, in the nurseries, in the teaching in a classroom, in all the things.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: So I think this is one of those things that not enough women um are told that they should wrestle through, that not enough women are given opportunities to go, hey, should I pursue seminary?
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: And let's be real, financial things or time things really that's one of those things that the enemy uses as big discouragements.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_02: But we are the most equipped generation than ever before to be able to go to seminary.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, fully online, um, books cheaper than they've ever been before.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like, there are so many great opportunities to just take um any kind of biblical education to the next level.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: What would you say your prayer is for the next gen of women in the church and like for how the church would really look based on your findings?
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: As I mentioned to you, I did my research just over 10 years ago.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: I was seven months pregnant with my son when I defended my dissertation.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: He is about to turn 11, actually.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that is when I did my research.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: And in that decade, a lot has changed.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like one thing that has changed that you just mentioned is that seminaries are thinking outside the box.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: And some of them have almost had to, just for financial reasons, think about how can we resource people who are working full-time or who are stay-at-home parents who can't set aside three years of their life to move somewhere to go to seminary.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so, how can we make ourselves available to to moms?
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so I know now a number, I have a lot of different friends who have done these online cohorts with other women, like Denver Seminary does one.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure there's there's others.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think Wheaton had one.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I so I love, first of all, that this is already changing.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like this is already happening where seminary is now more accessible than ever.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to turn your life upside down to do it.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: That said, I will say the last time I was in an environment where I was speaking to young people, and this was not just to women, it was women and men, but they were all at college age and early 20s.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: And the thing that I said to them, and this is for women and men, is that we do in fact still need people who are seeking theological education.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: And that is not, it is not for everyone, but we do still need to have leaders who are are doing the work of not just learning how to study scripture, but but one reason it's actually really important to go to seminary that I think a lot of people don't understand is that through learning church history, through learning theology, but also through learning heresy, is you learn the mistakes that the church has already made so that we don't make them again.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's one of the things, like like a pesky heresy that keeps popping up again and again and again is Gnosticism.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: This this heresy will not die.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: And it takes so many different forms, but it's really important to learn like what are the things that the church discovered that we need to know, but also what are the things that the church tried that actually led to great peril and failed catastrophically so that we don't do those things again.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so very often I I think that we sort of take for granted the doctrines, the the inheritance that we have in in church history.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so I would just say it really matters that the next generation, both men and women, continue to educate themselves and to learn and to carry on the tradition that has been handed to us.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_02: I think a lot of people think only pastoral role roles.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_02: They don't think about Bible translators, they don't think about Bible publishers, you they don't think about there's so many needs.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_02: Some of my favorite like commentators have been heavily influenced by, you know, X, Y, and Z.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_02: Like there's so much need in the church, and there's a place for everyone, depending on like whether someone you're listening into this and you're egalitarian or complementarian, like whether in your local church there's a role for you in a vocational way or not.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_02: There are countless ways to serve the church if you have interest and you want to pursue a seminary education.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: Like there is such a need.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I love that.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I love how you took it to Gnosticism because um I've shared a lot online about how I grew up in a household where my dad misused scripture and took it heavily out of context.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I've talked about how it is very reflective, and I would argue it is Gnosticism.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: He he very much like, God's called me not to work, God's called me not to pay on my mortgage, God, but God's called me to stay in this house, and God's called me to not have electricity and just to pull away.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not even kidding, to pull away from the world and shut down, but I'm holier than you, and I have a high understanding of scripture.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I heard directly from God, this is what he means to me from this random proverb to get out of context.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of people will push back and they're like, Faith, that doesn't really.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: On still today.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like we don't really actually see some of the same heresies.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: We're not going to fall into the same kind of patterns that we fell into.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: What would you say in response to that?
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: To quote scripture, there's nothing new under the sun.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: And it just takes different forms.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we are conspiracy theories are a branch of this because what Gnosticism, and I'm sure you've explained this before, but it has to do with this like secret knowledge.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, gnosis means like knowledge.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: And this this belief that you have this secret knowledge.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: And anytime you have this movement of people saying, I know something that everyone else has been deceived.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone else, everyone's had the wool pulled over their eyes.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: I and this collection of people over here, or, you know, in your dad's case, maybe like I alone have, you know, this secret knowledge, essentially, this insight that no one else has.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: That is a form of Gnosticism.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: And what what we believe it is irreconcilable with Scripture because of the Holy Spirit, our access, this priesthood of all believers.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: We all have access to the same Holy Spirit as anyone else.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it's irreconcilable going again back to this vision of the church where we are this interdependent body that relies on one another.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: And what that means is you are going to hear things from the Lord.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: You're going to have insights from scripture.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: Well, first of all, you're also not going to hear anything from the Lord that is not affirmed in scripture.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: I want to be like very clear about that as well.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: But if you have insights into scripture that somebody else in the church, like maybe they need to hear.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: And most of the time we are fine with that.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: We're like, these people over here, they need to listen to me.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like they need to do their research and they need to listen to me.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: But what we don't like is when God turns the tables and says, Well, what do they say that you need to hear?
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like what blind spots can they see that you need revealed to you?
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: And again, I go back and just ask, like, do we take First Corinthians 12 seriously?
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like, do we really believe that the body of Christ is diverse?
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: Because too often it's like we all want everyone to be an arm.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like whatever I am, I want everyone else to be that thing.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: And we don't take seriously the diversity of the body.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's funny how oftentimes a lot of the heresy, a lot of the false teaching comes from the victimizing of one party and the like making the other party an enemy.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: There, it's debating uh first over setting, over conviction, over truth.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's just you have to be in my same party.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: You are the enemy.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: I am the right person.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_02: You have to agree with me.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_02: And it's just shutting down instead of a humbleness, a willing to return to the word, have that be an authority over our lives.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_02: Kind of like a telltale sign of Gnosticism and things like that is it will either have you reject the very human and only embrace like super holy, whatever you think is the holy stuff, or the inverse of that, so that it has a reflection on the deity and the humanity of Christ.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_02: And we see that just the same in our theological um discussions today is we make things out to be, oh, well, they have a small view of Christ, or they they need a bigger view of Christ, or they need a bigger understanding of the cross.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_02: And nobody's actually ever like looking at scripture, nobody's actually ever going back to the word.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's just, oh, they're a false teacher.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_02: You know, they're they're in the wrong.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_02: The call calling names essentially, putting people in camps and not actually going back to scripture, going back to truth, you know, what is our hermeneutic?
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: How is that impacting the way that we can be gracious or compassionate with somebody?
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: Whenever I hear people like lacking that humility, because God is the only one who like stands over everything that's happening in the world and can see it clearly, He's the only one.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so that demands humility for all of us.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: That if we have to admit I am not God, I am not an omniscient.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so that means there are things I cannot see, there are things that I don't understand.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: And because I'm a sinner, it means I will be wrong about certain things.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so whenever I see someone holding a conviction without any conception of everything I just said, with without that humility, it just it reminds me there is nothing new under the sun.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: And this is why we need to know about church history and heresies.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: Where would you encourage somebody to start?
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm sure that there's somebody listening to this right now and they're like, okay, yes, I want to know church history, I want to know heresies, but I don't even know where to start.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: I'm overwhelmed.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like, where would you encourage them to just start?
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: One really sweet thing about this time that we are living in is that there are more and more theological resources for people that are written to be accessible for people who aren't necessarily wanting to become pastors, but still want to equip themselves with theology 101.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: You probably have some suggestions as as well of like books that you Yeah.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: Even just Googling, like what are the seven ecumenical councils?
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like, like what are some of like the big heresies and debates that we had early, early on in the church?
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_02: You know, Googling.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of people are like fear-ridden about the missing books of the Bible, the missing Bible versus just Google, hey, why did we remove them?
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, because they're like definitely added later.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: So like, oh, okay, that like solves my fear right away.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's just so much misinformation that people then don't even like look up the truth.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: They're just like ridden with misinformation, but they're afraid to like look up I don't know.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: I think we need to be less fearful and more confident in the truth that God has spoken in his word and that he is working in through and despite us.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_02: And therefore we can live, we can act, we can ask questions, we can follow the Lord in faith and stay humble.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's that's such a great perspective in this whole conversation because on the one hand, it is important to equip ourselves, it is important to study, it is important to learn, but to not do that out of fear that you are going to screw up your kids or that you are accidentally going to commit some heresy, to know that if your heart before the Lord is humble and sincere, that He will honor that, and that actually you are only ever going to be an imperfect vessel, that there is no amount of study that is going to protect you from yourself.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: Say that louder for me.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: But just thank thankfully the Holy Spirit works just as you said, like in through, and did you say like in spite of us, essentially?
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: And that grace empowers us and and equips us to hold together both both confidence in him and humility in ourselves.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_02: Quick pause before we get further into the conversation.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_02: Last year I flew to Kaungwari, Kenya, and saw firsthand one of the most thoughtful mission models I have ever encountered.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: Us Bible nerds are working together to fund 2,000 water filters through the Bucket Ministry.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_02: They don't just bring clean water, they come back three times for discipleship, sharing the gospel and helping new believers get connected to the local church.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: And they do it by hiring local missionaries, discipling neighbor to neighbor in the local language.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_02: If you want to be part of that work and join us Bible nerds, we'd love for you to join us in support of the Bucket Ministry.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_02: All the information and all the links are in the show notes.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_02: Alright, now let's get back to the conversation.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_02: People listening in, they can probably definitely tell you're a very wise woman.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_02: You have a lot of good wisdom and convicting one-liners that just cut deep to the soul.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_02: You've written some really good books as well.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: Gazing at God, Free of Me, Nice.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_02: Can you share a little bit about the books you've written, your heart behind them?
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_02: Because we haven't even touched on like your ministry and work.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: So one of my favorite things to do, I really enjoy thinking about how the culture is discipling us.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: And that was something that in the early church, and I don't know if you've talked about catechism.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: Have you talked about catechism at all?
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so this is essentially, you know, teaching people how to be formed into the likeness of Jesus and how to follow him.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so this was like necessary for baptism in the early church.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: But a lot of times what needed to happen prior to catechism was this kind of decatechism of realizing you were actually formed by something else.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: And until you can see what that is and the ways that it has formed you, it's gonna keep sort of driving the wheel of your life without you even seeing it.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so I have found one of the ways that God, I think, has gifted me is a lot of insight and ability to see the ways that the culture has catechized us and that we have to be decatechized.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so I spent a lot of time with you mentioned my book, Free of Me.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: That was my first book.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: The subtitle is Why Life is Better When It's Not About You.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then I just came out with a devotional, a follow-up called Gazing at God.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: Both of those are about something called self-forgetfulness.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not the same as self-neglect or self-abandonment, but it is basically living in a way where you are free from self-focus, self-preoccupation.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: And this message is necessary, A, because of sin.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's not new.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: Going all the way back to Augustine, he described the condition of the soul because of sin as continually bending in on itself.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: And it is grace that unbends the soul back towards God and others.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's a very old idea.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: But what is new is we belong to this self-esteem, self-help culture that really encourages that self-focus and actually presents it almost as a kind of alternative gospel.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: That if you just believe that you're special, that this is the thing that will set you free, you know, self-love, self-acceptance, that that is this alternative gospel.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so I really dug into in those books, unpacking why this movement, the self-help movement, failed, how we can refocus on God and others.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: So both of those books are about that.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: Another one that you didn't mention that I really enjoyed writing is called The Cost of Control.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that one is about not just our struggles with control.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: Again, very, very old struggle, going back to Genesis 3.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that that moment when Adam and Eve thought, I think my life would be better if I was in charge, if I was in the driver's seat, if I had Godlike power.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: That that is where the seed of control came from.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: But we are in this age where we are sort of promised predictability and certainty and control because of technology.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: And that is also shaping us.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so I do a lot of cultural analysis, but in a way that is very, you know, I work, I work in a church, and so I want everything, I don't want it to feel like culture analysis.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: I want it to feel like this is deeply practical and relevant to my life.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's kind of my my jam.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_02: I love following you on socials too because it's just like the practical day-to-day, like even just in life, like you're so down to earth, but you also can get deep so quickly.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I love that about you.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_02: I think you have great resources.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited to get more into those books.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: Well, what would you say is like if you were to leave the listening audience here with one last core truth?
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: We've touched on so many different things, and hopefully, I know that there's been lots of nuggets of encouragement.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_02: What would you say if you could leave them with one last core truth if they don't hear anything else?
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_02: What would you want to leave them with?
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think I'm gonna go back to just our original conversation that about stewardship and discerning your your calling, your your vocation.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: And when it comes to discerning our our gifts, I think that spiritual gift assessments can be a helpful tool.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: But very often what I tell people is if you want to know your spiritual gifts, ask the people who know you best and who are wise and love Jesus and listen to him.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: What do they say about you?
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: What do they see in you?
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then to take that seriously.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: And especially if you can look back on your life and you're hearing the same things over and over again, and then to receive that as a part of your calling, and then to take it seriously and to steward it with, you know, fear and trembling in a in a sense that that this is not for your glory.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: And and what I found with most women is they're not wanting to do this for their glory.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: That that's the sweet, sad irony of it is a lot of times women take themselves out of their calling because they are humble and and they don't want to promote themselves.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think that honors God so much.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that that is important work that we should all do is to check our motives, but at the same time, know that you should not bury that talent in the ground, that that God expects you to invest it and to grow it, not for your glory, but for his.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's the last kind of commissioning statement I would speak over everyone who's listening.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_02: So good.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_02: I just know everybody else is encouraged like me.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_02: You just deliver it so good, and I so needed to hear that.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you so much for coming on and blessing the Bible nerds.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: You are so welcome.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_02: You're listening to the How to Faith a Life Podcast, where we wrestle with questions on how to live a life of faith, from everything from books to Bible studies, even Bible study tips.
• 36:16
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• 36:21
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• 36:25
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