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SEO Secrets No One Tells You · The Ecommerce Revolution Podcast

0:01
Welcome to today's episode of the e-commerce revolution podcast
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where we dive into
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the dynamic world of e-commerce and uncover the tools and
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tactics that empower
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SPEAKER_01: today's emerging entrepreneurs.
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SPEAKER_01: Our podcast is part of our community with the same name.
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The community is geared to providing emerging e-commerce
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entrepreneurs with courses,
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content and coaching to help you all launch and grow successful businesses.
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SPEAKER_01: Check us out at ecomrevolution.co.
0:28
SPEAKER_01: Let's get things started.
0:33
SPEAKER_01: Welcome back, everybody.
0:33
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to season two, episode number one.
0:38
SPEAKER_01: All right,
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SPEAKER_01: today's guest is not new to the podcast,
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SPEAKER_01: but what we're going to ask him today,
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SPEAKER_01: and hopefully what he's going to tell us today,
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SPEAKER_01: is going to be 100% new.
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SPEAKER_01: Our guest is a true SEO master.
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SPEAKER_01: He really, really knows his stuff.
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Trust me,
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I have asked him every question under the sun,
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and he has answered it with confidence.
1:00
Our guest superpower is that he regularly helps brands outrank competitors,
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SPEAKER_01: get this,
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SPEAKER_01: by 100X their size in search,
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helping these brands overtake their competitors with a fraction
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of the marketing budget.
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SPEAKER_01: Amazing, huh?
1:16
SPEAKER_01: That's pretty good.
1:17
SPEAKER_01: You gotta take note of that.
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He's also quoted as saying,
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investing in SEO and educational content isn't sexy,
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SPEAKER_01: but it drives long-term compounding ROI, which I 100% agree with.
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SPEAKER_01: And not to be overlooked,
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our guest once hiked a volcano in Guatemala while dealing with
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food poisoning and
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SPEAKER_01: made it back alive,
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SPEAKER_01: of course.
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So just with that said,
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that part alone,
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I mean,
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you really got to listen to him.
1:45
He's got what it takes to make it up a volcano with food
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poisoning and then back down again.
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SPEAKER_01: Pretty amazing if you ask me.
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SPEAKER_01: So
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Without any further ado,
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please welcome back Pat Ahern to the Ecommerce Revolution podcast.
2:00
SPEAKER_01: Pat, it is great to have you back here.
2:03
SPEAKER_02: Ramin, I am so excited to be back, especially for the season opener.
2:07
SPEAKER_02: I was joking before that I'm feeling the extra pressure to deliver.
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SPEAKER_02: So hopefully I can live up to expectations.
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SPEAKER_01: Well, you will.
2:14
SPEAKER_01: You will.
2:15
SPEAKER_01: And just before we get started,
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SPEAKER_01: I wanted to give a quick shout out to you for having me on your podcast,
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SPEAKER_01: Customer Growth Session.
2:21
SPEAKER_01: So for those of you out there, go take a look.
2:24
SPEAKER_01: We'll put the link to it in the show notes.
2:26
SPEAKER_01: I had a lot of fun.
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SPEAKER_01: You asked me some great questions, I felt.
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SPEAKER_01: And hopefully I delivered on your end.
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SPEAKER_01: And, you know, we're all here to help help others out there.
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SPEAKER_01: Right.
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SPEAKER_01: Help e-commerce entrepreneurs out there.
2:40
SPEAKER_02: Definitely.
2:40
SPEAKER_02: It was a pleasure having you on.
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I was so excited we could pull you in for half an hour,
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45 minutes to pick your brain.
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SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you.
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SPEAKER_01: So let's get into this topic of search engine optimization,
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SPEAKER_01: or as we like to quickly say it,
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SPEAKER_01: SEO,
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SPEAKER_01: right?
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SPEAKER_01: And I think, Pat, I want to get your opinion on this.
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SPEAKER_01: Most entrepreneurs,
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SPEAKER_01: somebody getting into the e-commerce space for the first time,
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SPEAKER_01: what I like to call emerging entrepreneurs,
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SPEAKER_01: find SEO to be confusing.
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SPEAKER_01: A lot of hard work.
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And in most cases,
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the rankings that they're trying to go after are hard to attain.
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SPEAKER_01: How would you respond to that?
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SPEAKER_02: Oh, I would totally agree.
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SPEAKER_02: SEO is,
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SPEAKER_02: in my opinion,
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it's oftentimes approached as a much more complex concept than
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I think it really
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SPEAKER_02: needs to be.
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SPEAKER_02: You know,
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SPEAKER_02: I'll be the first to say I've been doing SEO for,
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SPEAKER_02: at this point,
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SPEAKER_02: 12 years,
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SPEAKER_02: maybe 13 years.
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SPEAKER_02: There's a lot that goes into it.
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SPEAKER_02: There's,
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SPEAKER_02: I would argue,
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probably thousands of different levers you can pull on your
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website or off your
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SPEAKER_02: website that are going to impact the way that you rank in search.
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SPEAKER_02: But at the same time,
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I like to say that I find it most effective to start out with a
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baseline understanding,
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start out with what I'd call the foundational components of
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what really SEO
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SPEAKER_02: consists of.
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SPEAKER_02: And once you understand those baseline components,
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SPEAKER_02: once you understand at a high level how search engines work,
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SPEAKER_02: it can be way more straightforward.
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SPEAKER_02: So I'd love to,
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SPEAKER_02: if you find it helpful,
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SPEAKER_02: to dive into what are those core components that ultimately,
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SPEAKER_02: if you can learn what those master levers are,
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SPEAKER_02: you can figure out where to invest in SEO,
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what areas to focus on that are really going to have the
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greatest impact on your business.
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SPEAKER_01: Well, you stole the words right out of my mouth.
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SPEAKER_01: My next question to you literally was,
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if you were going to start an e-commerce business today and
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knowing what you know
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SPEAKER_01: about SEO,
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SPEAKER_01: what three strategies or four or five,
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SPEAKER_01: whichever one,
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SPEAKER_01: you go with the number that you feel is the best,
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would you put together and implement for your business knowing
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that you don't have
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a big budget to work with and maybe just you doing a lot of the
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work or maybe you
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SPEAKER_01: would be working with a virtual assistant?
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SPEAKER_01: I'd love to get your thoughts on that.
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SPEAKER_02: Oh, definitely.
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SPEAKER_02: Great question.
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SPEAKER_02: So one caveat I'll share before we get into tangible SEO strategies.
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SPEAKER_02: If you're an emerging e-commerce brand,
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SPEAKER_02: let's say you can spend whether it's $1,000,
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SPEAKER_02: whether it's $5,000 per month on,
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SPEAKER_02: let's say,
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SPEAKER_02: marketing as a whole.
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One of the one of the very common mistakes I'll see a lot of
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emerging e-commerce
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brands making is investing many cases a little bit too heavily
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in SEO from the onset.
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SPEAKER_02: Reason that can be a mistake.
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SPEAKER_02: SEO is a long term investment.
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SPEAKER_02: So long term SEO is going to drive phenomenal results for your business.
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SPEAKER_02: That being said,
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SPEAKER_02: if you're at the early stages where marketing dollars are really tight,
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where maybe you really are trying to reach cash flow positive
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and all you have is a
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certain amount of savings that you're living off of and trying
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to start your
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SPEAKER_02: business off of.
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SPEAKER_02: One of the big things I'll recommend to these brands is,
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SPEAKER_02: hey,
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SPEAKER_02: right out of the gate,
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SPEAKER_02: take 60,
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maybe 80 percent of your marketing budget and put it into short
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term customer
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SPEAKER_02: acquisition channels.
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SPEAKER_02: Specifically,
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that's going to be things like partnering with publisher sites
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who might collect
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SPEAKER_02: commission for referring your product to their readers.
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SPEAKER_02: Could be deciding,
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SPEAKER_02: hey,
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SPEAKER_02: I'm going to put a bunch of money into Facebook ads or LinkedIn ads,
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SPEAKER_02: Twitter ads,
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SPEAKER_02: you name it.
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SPEAKER_02: But I really encourage in the short term,
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SPEAKER_02: until you can start getting to that profitability point,
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SPEAKER_02: only put a fraction of your budget into SEO.
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Long term,
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SEO is going to be where you're going to get most of your
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customers from.
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But in the short term,
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it can be a little precarious if you invest too aggressively in it.
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SPEAKER_02: So with that being said,
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SPEAKER_02: let's say you're putting $1,000 a month into Facebook ads,
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SPEAKER_02: you're getting some good customers from it,
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SPEAKER_02: and you're really trying to figure out,
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SPEAKER_02: okay,
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maybe I have 10 hours a week that I can put into SEO efforts
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for that long-term
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SPEAKER_02: exponential customer growth.
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SPEAKER_02: What should I be doing?
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SPEAKER_02: If you are a brand new brand,
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SPEAKER_02: a really good way to think of it is that SEO,
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SPEAKER_02: I like to say,
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SPEAKER_02: can be broken down into three core components.
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SPEAKER_02: Component one is what I refer to as relevancy,
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SPEAKER_02: without getting too deep into the weeds on each of these components.
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Relevancy is really all about making it easy for Google and
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other search engines to
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SPEAKER_02: understand what your business is about,
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to understand what sort of key phrases someone types into
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Google that are directly
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SPEAKER_02: related to your business that you should actually show up for.
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SPEAKER_02: Grouping two,
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SPEAKER_02: authority,
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is all about telling Google and other search engines that
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you're a reputable source
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SPEAKER_02: for information,
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showing that you're a trustworthy brand that should be showing
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up for these types
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SPEAKER_02: of queries as opposed to your competitor.
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SPEAKER_02: In grouping three, I refer to that as crawlability.
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SPEAKER_02: You'll hear the term technical SEO thrown around for that quite a bit.
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I describe that as almost like the equivalent of like doing
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engine maintenance on your car.
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It's the types of things you're going to do to fine tune your
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website to make sure
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SPEAKER_02: that it is more straightforward for users to use,
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provides a better user experience and operates more smoothly
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and is really just
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more straightforward for search engines to navigate their way
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through it and
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SPEAKER_02: understand the different types of pages that are out there.
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SPEAKER_02: For most emerging brands,
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SPEAKER_02: that third grouping,
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SPEAKER_02: crawlability,
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isn't going to be the lever that's going to move the needle the
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most for you.
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SPEAKER_02: Oftentimes,
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brands can get away with just doing a couple of baseline items
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and then just
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SPEAKER_02: coasting off of that until they reach a much higher level of growth.
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SPEAKER_02: So assuming you're that early stage brand,
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the two levers that are gonna drive the best results for you
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are focusing on making
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it really easy for Google to understand what your business is
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about and making it
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SPEAKER_02: really clear to Google that you're an expert in your subject matter.
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SPEAKER_02: So, you know, let's take a tangible example.
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SPEAKER_02: Let's say that you're launching a new razor blade company.
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SPEAKER_02: You're trying to compete with Dollar Shave Club,
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SPEAKER_02: Harry's and all the other big razor blade brands out there.
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SPEAKER_02: No easy feat,
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SPEAKER_02: but you have 10 hours a week and,
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SPEAKER_02: you know,
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SPEAKER_02: you have the strategy behind you that's going to help you to get there.
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SPEAKER_02: If you're launching this brand new razor blade brand,
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one of the best things you can do is start out by defining what
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niche positioning
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SPEAKER_02: could you go after that maybe is underserved in the market.
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SPEAKER_02: And this is going to be a little bit of a mix of customer interviews.
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Customer development is oftentimes like a jargony term thrown
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around there to try
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and understand what's missing from these really big brands and
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then incorporating
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SPEAKER_02: the SEO insights to say,
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SPEAKER_02: OK,
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We think that there's this big opportunity to narrow down to
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this particular niche
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SPEAKER_02: of razor blades.
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SPEAKER_02: From there,
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we can lean on SEO to research what businesses are currently
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ranking for that theme today.
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SPEAKER_02: We can look to understand how trustworthy are those brands?
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SPEAKER_02: How many sites do they have linking back to them?
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What's the depth of blog articles that they've published on
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their site that show
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SPEAKER_02: search engines like Google that they're an expert on this space?
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And we can really look to say how feasible would it be for us
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to overtake them in these areas?
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SPEAKER_02: So once you've started coming up with or,
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SPEAKER_02: you know,
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whether it's defining your niche fully or just have theories
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about what your niche
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SPEAKER_02: is going to be,
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the really big thing that's going to move the needle for you in
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the early stages is
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giving Google every sign in the world that you are an expert on
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all things related
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SPEAKER_02: to this particular niche.
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SPEAKER_02: So if you're launching razor blades and you're trying to,
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SPEAKER_02: let's say,
10:01
SPEAKER_02: do women's razor blades,
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the best thing you could do is identify what sort of themes are
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your potential
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SPEAKER_02: customers looking for online today?
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Either what are they going to Reddit for and asking about in
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Reddit communities?
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You can lean on all sorts of keyword research tools,
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whether it be a refs,
10:19
SEM rush.
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SPEAKER_02: There's dozens out there.
10:21
SPEAKER_02: To ultimately uncover what are people searching for,
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SPEAKER_02: from there we can start saying,
10:26
SPEAKER_02: okay,
10:26
let's write the best resource on the internet about each of
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these topics that we
10:30
SPEAKER_02: can prove based on data our customers are curious to learn more about.
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And let's focus on creating the best resource on the internet
10:37
about this that
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SPEAKER_02: injects our expertise on the subject matter,
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that injects the way that our product is different than all of
10:44
our competitors out there,
10:45
and ultimately positioning ourselves as uniquely better for
10:48
this subset of
10:49
SPEAKER_02: customers that we really want to target.
10:53
SPEAKER_02: So long and short of it,
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SPEAKER_02: if I had to,
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SPEAKER_02: say,
10:55
SPEAKER_02: choose two levers or three levers to focus on,
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start by identifying what is that niche positioning that you
11:01
can win in against
11:03
SPEAKER_02: your competitors in the long term.
11:05
Start writing the best resources on the Internet and injecting
11:08
your own expertise
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SPEAKER_02: in the industry into these individual articles that you are writing.
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SPEAKER_02: And then from there,
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SPEAKER_02: look to build relationships with other people in the space,
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SPEAKER_02: whether it be other e-commerce businesses,
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SPEAKER_02: maybe other local businesses that you have partnerships with,
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SPEAKER_02: whether it just be other,
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SPEAKER_02: let's say in this case,
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SPEAKER_02: razor blade publications,
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SPEAKER_02: get them to link back to your website,
11:29
which is going to further show Google that you're an expert in
11:32
your space.
11:33
It is ultimately going to help you to start ranking and help
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you to start winning
11:36
SPEAKER_02: those customers on autopilot when,
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SPEAKER_02: let's say,
11:39
10,000 people every month go to Google and search for women's
11:42
razor blades looking
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SPEAKER_02: to pull out their credit card and make a purchase today.
11:45
SPEAKER_01: Okay, that's good.
11:47
SPEAKER_01: And I mean, listen, that's a very, you know, very comprehensive strategy.
11:51
SPEAKER_01: But I think, you know, you sum it up and, you know,
11:54
SPEAKER_01: two or three things that you need to do out of the gate.
11:57
And we'll dive into each of those because I'm very curious to
12:00
know what the going,
12:01
SPEAKER_01: you know,
12:02
SPEAKER_01: like content,
12:03
SPEAKER_01: for example,
12:04
SPEAKER_01: you know,
12:04
SPEAKER_01: that always comes up,
12:05
SPEAKER_01: how much content.
12:06
SPEAKER_01: And when you say articles,
12:07
I just wanna make sure we're also interchangeably using the
12:09
word blog here,
12:10
SPEAKER_01: right?
12:11
That is something out there that people always ask me to like,
12:14
well,
12:14
you say article.
12:15
SPEAKER_01: Do you mean blog?
12:16
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
12:17
SPEAKER_01: Same thing.
12:17
SPEAKER_01: And I assume you're referring to the same thing as well, right?
12:20
SPEAKER_02: That's a great question.
12:21
And you bring up and I won't go too deep into this because this
12:24
could be a whole
12:24
SPEAKER_02: topic in of itself as well.
12:26
SPEAKER_02: But you bring up a phenomenal point.
12:28
SPEAKER_02: If I use the term articles,
12:30
I'm typically referring to like a written blog page that's
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going to be published on
12:34
SPEAKER_02: your website.
12:35
SPEAKER_02: That being said,
12:36
and I'm guilty of doing this because this is what our team
12:38
really specializes in,
12:39
SPEAKER_02: is writing this long form educational content.
12:43
One of the other opportunities that's out there is if you are
12:47
researching these
12:47
SPEAKER_02: opportunities and you're seeing,
12:49
SPEAKER_02: hey,
12:49
SPEAKER_02: huge search demand,
12:50
huge number of potential customers that are looking for this
12:53
theme every month,
12:54
I'd really challenge you to think about it and ask yourself the
12:57
question of,
12:57
SPEAKER_02: hey,
12:58
SPEAKER_02: is writing a blog article,
12:59
SPEAKER_02: is that the best way to serve up that result to my customers?
13:03
SPEAKER_02: Some people listening may say, hey, you know what?
13:05
SPEAKER_02: I'm way better off creating a short TikTok video.
13:07
Some people may say,
13:08
hey,
13:08
I'm way better off making a 30-minute long YouTube spiel.
13:12
SPEAKER_02: Some people may say,
13:13
SPEAKER_02: hey,
13:13
I'm way better off posting Twitter threads or posting these
13:17
longer LinkedIn posts
13:18
SPEAKER_02: about this on a regular basis.
13:21
SPEAKER_02: Term content can be...
13:23
SPEAKER_02: Super broad.
13:25
SPEAKER_02: I like to think of it in terms of writing blog articles for your website.
13:28
SPEAKER_02: But as we're going through this, I'd really challenge listeners.
13:32
SPEAKER_02: Ask yourselves,
13:32
SPEAKER_02: you know,
13:33
what's what type of content medium do you think is going to be
13:35
best for your
13:36
SPEAKER_02: readers and focus on that specific medium,
13:39
SPEAKER_02: applying all these other insights from there?
13:42
SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm glad you said that.
13:43
SPEAKER_01: And,
13:43
SPEAKER_01: you know,
13:43
SPEAKER_01: I like to think that these days,
13:46
SPEAKER_01: you know,
13:46
SPEAKER_01: if you're an e-commerce entrepreneur,
13:48
SPEAKER_01: you also need to be a content creator at the same time.
13:51
SPEAKER_01: Right.
13:51
So good point to whatever that content is,
13:54
you know,
13:54
getting that out there.
13:55
And you mentioned,
13:56
you know,
13:56
understanding your niche,
13:57
really getting the understanding.
13:59
SPEAKER_01: I like to reference buyer persona, writing a buyer persona.
14:04
SPEAKER_01: And that, I think, comes in very handy.
14:07
SPEAKER_01: Once you know your buyer persona,
14:09
SPEAKER_01: a fictitional representation of your ideal customer,
14:12
SPEAKER_01: creating that content.
14:14
I think back to some of the content that you created for some
14:17
of our clients back in the day.
14:20
SPEAKER_01: What are they looking for?
14:21
SPEAKER_01: They're not just always looking for the product that you're selling.
14:24
SPEAKER_01: They're looking for information
14:27
that relates to the product that can be used how your product
14:30
can be used maybe
14:31
with other things and i think that you know you used the word
14:34
education i think
14:34
that's a great term and something that uh e-commerce
14:38
entrepreneurs should hold on
14:39
to as they create content whatever that content is but in the
14:42
case of what we're
14:43
talking about today you know written content blog in blog
14:47
format uh still matters a
14:49
SPEAKER_01: lot right oh definitely a lot
14:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:52
SPEAKER_01: Well, let me just ask you a question.
14:55
SPEAKER_01: I'm thinking,
14:56
SPEAKER_01: taking myself back to 2013,
14:58
SPEAKER_01: and I had an e-commerce business at the time,
15:02
SPEAKER_01: and we got Panda.
15:06
SPEAKER_01: You remember Panda?
15:09
I think the beginning of Google's many algorithm updates that
15:14
came fast and hard.
15:17
SPEAKER_01: And our business was affected.
15:20
A lot of e-commerce businesses at that time were affected by
15:23
this algorithm rollout.
15:25
SPEAKER_01: They're still doing this.
15:26
They're maybe not doing it at that pace that they were doing it
15:30
back then.
15:30
SPEAKER_01: But...
15:33
SPEAKER_01: how are e-commerce entrepreneurs supposed to deal with this?
15:36
SPEAKER_01: All the work that they put in could literally,
15:40
something could change tomorrow in Google's policy and their
15:45
algorithm and maybe
15:47
SPEAKER_01: wipe out all their work.
15:48
SPEAKER_01: How do you protect yourself from that?
15:50
SPEAKER_01: How do you future-proof your SEO strategy?
15:52
SPEAKER_02: Oh, definitely.
15:53
SPEAKER_02: That's such a great question.
15:54
And to your point,
15:56
I mean,
15:56
Google has,
15:57
I think the first update they rolled out
16:00
SPEAKER_02: And I'd say fact check this one, listeners.
16:02
SPEAKER_02: I think it was like 20 or 2003, maybe or 2004 that they rolled out.
16:07
SPEAKER_02: It was their Florida update was was the nickname for it,
16:10
SPEAKER_00: which was like they're using states back.
16:12
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
16:13
SPEAKER_00: To animals.
16:14
SPEAKER_02: Oh, man.
16:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
16:15
SPEAKER_02: They're all over the place with the names for these.
16:17
SPEAKER_02: They've come up with some really wonky names.
16:19
SPEAKER_02: They definitely have a lot of fun with those.
16:21
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
16:21
SPEAKER_02: But.
16:23
SPEAKER_02: Google's had this trend over time of ultimately trying to figure out,
16:29
SPEAKER_02: in their eyes,
16:29
SPEAKER_02: how can we build the best search experience possible?
16:31
SPEAKER_02: Because ultimately,
16:32
SPEAKER_02: their theory is,
16:33
SPEAKER_02: hey,
16:33
SPEAKER_02: if we provide a great search experience,
16:35
SPEAKER_02: we're going to get a ton of people going to our search engine,
16:37
SPEAKER_02: which means we can sell ads and take it from there,
16:40
SPEAKER_02: generate a ton of revenue,
16:41
SPEAKER_02: a ton of profit.
16:44
SPEAKER_02: There's this joke that a lot of SEOs will look at things and say,
16:49
SPEAKER_02: OK,
16:50
SPEAKER_02: here's the way that Google's algorithm is designed today.
16:53
Here's some things we think we can do today that are going to
16:56
help us to rank really,
16:58
SPEAKER_02: really effectively in the short term.
17:00
SPEAKER_02: Google will see this trend coming on.
17:02
SPEAKER_02: Google will roll out this large series of updates.
17:05
Now a lot of their updates are actually machine learning driven
17:08
and kind of just
17:09
SPEAKER_02: out of their hands at this point.
17:12
SPEAKER_02: But Google will ultimately try and crack down on,
17:14
SPEAKER_02: you know,
17:14
what I'd call like trying to bend the rules a little bit that
17:17
Google is trying to
17:18
SPEAKER_02: get everyone to play by.
17:19
SPEAKER_02: They'll penalize some of the sites that are going against the rules,
17:24
SPEAKER_02: you know,
17:24
SPEAKER_02: and those practices just aren't rewarded in the long term.
17:29
Now it is like we're even seeing this to a really large degree
17:32
with what Google has
17:34
SPEAKER_02: referred to as like their helpful content updates.
17:36
SPEAKER_02: We saw this really,
17:38
really big time back in the very beginning of March where
17:40
Google started rolling
17:41
SPEAKER_02: out this massive core algorithm update.
17:44
that started really going after sites that were doing a lot of
17:48
these what are
17:48
SPEAKER_02: becoming like now very common practices,
17:50
SPEAKER_02: especially with large scale AI generated content.
17:54
And in particular,
17:55
we're seeing a lot of like what I'd refer to as publisher sites.
17:58
SPEAKER_02: So I think sites that are like very information driven,
18:01
really focused on referring readers to buy a product and
18:04
collecting affiliate
18:05
SPEAKER_02: commission from it.
18:06
SPEAKER_02: We're seeing a lot of those sites really take a beating right now.
18:10
SPEAKER_02: The couple of takeaways I would say for e-commerce,
18:13
because I personally haven't seen e-commerce businesses get
18:17
affected nearly as
18:18
SPEAKER_02: heavily based on what others in the community have shared.
18:21
But I think there's a couple of really good lessons we can
18:23
learn from some of the
18:23
SPEAKER_02: sites that have gotten impacted,
18:25
SPEAKER_02: even with these most recent algorithm updates.
18:27
SPEAKER_02: But also, as you said, going back to 2012, 2013.
18:29
SPEAKER_02: First thing.
18:33
very high level if uh if you're looking to figure out how can
18:38
you almost how can
18:39
you get one step ahead of google and kind of win out against
18:43
their algorithm you
18:45
might be able to get away with it in the short term and there
18:47
are a lot of
18:47
businesses that do really well saying hey we're just gonna try
18:50
and stay one step
18:51
ahead of google we're gonna build a new brand we're gonna you
18:55
know do all these
18:55
SPEAKER_02: tactics that maybe don't fall in line with what google has in mind
18:59
But our plan is we're going to generate enough short term
19:01
revenue that by the time
19:02
SPEAKER_02: we get penalized,
19:03
SPEAKER_02: it's fine.
19:05
SPEAKER_02: If you're looking to build a business for the long term,
19:08
what I would really advocate for doing is looking at it in
19:11
terms of what I refer to
19:12
SPEAKER_02: as Google's long term mission.
19:14
Google wants to provide the best search experience possible for
19:18
people that are
19:18
using their search engine so that people will keep on coming
19:21
back to their search engine.
19:22
SPEAKER_02: A portion of those people will click on ads.
19:24
And that is how Google generates,
19:26
I believe,
19:27
70 to 80 percent of its revenue today.
19:31
if you are focusing on doing things that are in the best
19:34
interest of that reader
19:35
that you're trying to get to your site in the long term i'd
19:39
argue that taking that
19:40
general methodology is going to get you 90 of the way there
19:45
certainly there are
19:45
going to be some things that change in google's algorithm i'd
19:48
encourage any
19:49
e-commerce owners to pay attention to how much traffic you're
19:51
getting from search
19:52
SPEAKER_02: engines every month
19:54
to monitor key themes that you're ranking for and seeing how
19:57
that changes over time.
19:58
SPEAKER_02: But if you're really thinking hyper long term and saying,
20:01
SPEAKER_02: what can I do that's going to make life even better for readers?
20:03
What can I do that's going to make it easy for Google to
20:06
understand my website?
20:07
SPEAKER_02: You're getting yourself 90% of the way there.
20:11
SPEAKER_02: Within that,
20:12
SPEAKER_02: and this gets into like a subfacet of that,
20:15
SPEAKER_02: one of the trends we've really started to see maybe in the past,
20:19
SPEAKER_02: I'd say 12 months,
20:20
SPEAKER_02: you know,
20:20
SPEAKER_02: I guess maybe let's say 18 months ago,
20:24
SPEAKER_02: OpenAI rolled out like their chat GPT 3 or GPT 3,
20:29
SPEAKER_02: I guess it was in the form of chat GPT.
20:33
SPEAKER_02: I think it was like November 2022, if I remember correctly.
20:38
SPEAKER_02: From that time,
20:39
SPEAKER_02: a lot of people started saying,
20:40
SPEAKER_02: hey,
20:41
SPEAKER_02: let's start using AI to generate a ton of content for our site.
20:45
SPEAKER_02: You know,
20:45
SPEAKER_02: mindset being,
20:46
SPEAKER_02: hey,
20:46
we can basically get this machine that's going to pump out a
20:49
2000 word blog article
20:50
SPEAKER_02: for us.
20:52
SPEAKER_02: You know, it's going to cost us a couple pennies per article.
20:55
It'll be ready in five minutes and we can just slap it up on
20:57
our blog and be good to go.
21:00
SPEAKER_02: A lot of sites that did it,
21:02
SPEAKER_02: similar to that idea of staying one step ahead of Google,
21:04
a lot of sites were able to get some really serious traffic
21:06
from it in the short term.
21:07
A lot of those sites have seen their traffic go down to zero,
21:11
though,
21:11
since that time.
21:12
SPEAKER_02: So for those that are thinking about some of those shorter term tactics,
21:17
SPEAKER_02: trying to figure out how you can cut corners,
21:20
SPEAKER_02: stay one step ahead,
21:22
SPEAKER_02: I would just really encourage you to think about it and ask,
21:24
SPEAKER_02: you know,
21:25
SPEAKER_02: hey,
21:25
SPEAKER_02: do we want to build a business for the long term?
21:27
SPEAKER_02: Are we just trying to get some short term revenue?
21:29
SPEAKER_02: Something like AI generated content.
21:31
SPEAKER_02: In my eyes, AI is not very good at producing content right now.
21:35
SPEAKER_02: I've run a lot of tests.
21:37
SPEAKER_02: I think it's going to get significantly better over time.
21:39
But I also think that Google is going to get much savvier and
21:42
much better at
21:43
SPEAKER_02: cracking down on AI generated content.
21:46
Most brands that we work with,
21:48
I advocate for not using AI in their content generation process.
21:53
SPEAKER_02: There are certainly some things you can do with AI,
21:55
SPEAKER_02: but without getting too deep into the weeds,
21:58
I would say think about what's going to be best for users in
22:01
the long term.
22:03
Assume that any tactic you can do that you think is going to
22:06
put you one step ahead
22:07
SPEAKER_02: of Google,
22:07
that it's really just a waiting game until Google catches up
22:10
and slaps you for
22:12
SPEAKER_02: doing it.
22:13
I find it very interesting that these policies come out against
22:17
AI when they are
22:19
SPEAKER_01: heavily pushing Gemini and even mentioning in there,
22:24
SPEAKER_01: this is a great content creator.
22:26
SPEAKER_01: You can use this for content creation.
22:28
SPEAKER_01: Yet,
22:29
SPEAKER_01: you know,
22:29
SPEAKER_01: they don't like it when – and I understand the I don't like part because,
22:34
SPEAKER_01: you know,
22:34
SPEAKER_01: the content that gets put up there that is AI generated,
22:37
SPEAKER_01: to your point,
22:39
SPEAKER_01: it's not,
22:39
SPEAKER_01: you know,
22:40
SPEAKER_01: it's not spot on.
22:41
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I always say maybe it gets you 60% or 70% of the way there.
22:45
SPEAKER_01: You need to be involved as a human being because you have the,
22:47
SPEAKER_01: you know,
22:48
SPEAKER_01: you have the knowledge –
22:50
You have the emotion that you can put into the content and put
22:55
interesting stories behind it.
22:56
SPEAKER_01: But I do find it interesting that they are penalizing,
23:00
SPEAKER_01: yet also promoting and heavily use our system,
23:04
SPEAKER_01: use our platform for AI.
23:07
SPEAKER_01: It's interesting.
23:10
SPEAKER_01: Working with a lot of e-commerce,
23:12
and we have a section devoted to AI and automation in our
23:16
community because a team
23:18
SPEAKER_01: of one,
23:21
SPEAKER_01: looks to AI as, wow, look what I created.
23:27
SPEAKER_01: What I try to also say is,
23:28
SPEAKER_01: and maybe get your thought on this,
23:30
SPEAKER_01: is the AI can be maybe a writing partner with you.
23:34
SPEAKER_01: And there's got to be back and forth.
23:37
And yes,
23:38
it may be well-versed or quick to find information that you
23:41
can't find.
23:43
SPEAKER_01: But,
23:43
SPEAKER_01: you know,
23:43
SPEAKER_01: that's a good writing partner helps you if you're writing a book,
23:47
SPEAKER_01: you know,
23:47
SPEAKER_01: or whatever you're doing,
23:48
SPEAKER_01: you would love to have a writing partner.
23:50
What are your thoughts on using AI from a writing partner
23:53
standpoint while still
23:54
SPEAKER_01: staying very involved in the process?
23:57
SPEAKER_02: I love that.
23:57
SPEAKER_02: And I was going to say,
23:58
SPEAKER_02: just to build upon what you were saying about Google before that,
24:03
it's definitely a little bit hypocritical the way that Google's
24:05
approaching it,
24:06
SPEAKER_02: saying like,
24:06
SPEAKER_02: hey,
24:06
SPEAKER_02: we really,
24:07
SPEAKER_02: they've shifted their exact wording on their policies for it.
24:11
SPEAKER_02: I would argue based on what they've done to penalize sites,
24:14
SPEAKER_02: they're pretty opposed to AI-generated content.
24:17
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
24:18
But to your point,
24:19
yeah,
24:19
you have search generative experience that they're rolling out.
24:22
SPEAKER_02: You know,
24:22
SPEAKER_02: they were rolling it out in beta,
24:23
SPEAKER_02: starting to roll it out like,
24:25
SPEAKER_02: you know,
24:25
SPEAKER_02: to the public nowadays.
24:26
SPEAKER_02: But, you know, it's ultimately it's an AI generated response to queries.
24:31
SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, it's.
24:33
You know,
24:34
a little bit of hypocrisy there,
24:35
but don't tell the Google gods I said that.
24:39
SPEAKER_02: I don't want to get penalized for it.
24:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we said nothing here.
24:44
SPEAKER_01: Wonderful, wonderful tools you have.
24:45
SPEAKER_01: Amazing, amazing platform.
24:47
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, to your point about AI.
24:49
SPEAKER_02: So I wholeheartedly agree with you.
24:51
SPEAKER_02: You know, the...
24:53
The way that I personally look at it and the way that I really
24:56
advocate for our
24:57
SPEAKER_02: team to look at it is assume that using AI for any sort of task,
25:04
SPEAKER_02: writing,
25:04
SPEAKER_02: you name it,
25:05
assume that it's a virtual assistant that has access to all the
25:10
information in the world.
25:12
SPEAKER_02: But also, play it safe.
25:14
Assume it's a virtual assistant that is going to stab you in
25:17
the back as soon as
25:18
SPEAKER_02: you put your guard down.
25:21
SPEAKER_02: Reason I say that in particular, AI still has a lot of hallucinations.
25:25
SPEAKER_02: It still makes up a lot of facts.
25:28
And a lot of the AI tools out there are getting way better at
25:30
citing their sources.
25:32
But it's better to assume that anything that comes out of AI
25:36
needs to be fact
25:37
SPEAKER_02: checked to not just take it as,
25:38
SPEAKER_02: you know,
25:38
SPEAKER_02: the the college is the objective truth.
25:42
Assume that there's some subjectivity because it's built off of
25:46
all these different
25:47
data points of information created from subjective human beings
25:51
across the Internet.
25:54
SPEAKER_02: For me,
25:54
SPEAKER_02: what I find really helpful for AI,
25:56
SPEAKER_02: so our team,
25:57
SPEAKER_02: when it comes to creating content both for our own website,
26:00
SPEAKER_02: for client websites,
26:01
SPEAKER_02: we don't use AI to generate any of that content.
26:05
SPEAKER_02: That being said,
26:06
what I really encourage our team to do is to use AI as your
26:10
sounding board and use
26:11
SPEAKER_02: it as an ideation tool.
26:13
SPEAKER_02: So some of the things that I personally find it really helpful for are,
26:17
SPEAKER_02: let's say I have the first draft of an article.
26:20
I am writing a blog article for e-commerce founders that are
26:24
considering investing
26:25
SPEAKER_02: in SEO,
26:25
SPEAKER_02: talking about why they should be investing in SEO.
26:29
I may go to ChatGPT and I may tell ChatGPT,
26:33
hey,
26:33
I'm writing an article with this user in mind.
26:36
SPEAKER_02: Assume they have this much revenue per year.
26:39
SPEAKER_02: Assume they have X number of employees.
26:42
SPEAKER_02: Here's the first draft of my blog article.
26:44
SPEAKER_02: Put yourself in the shoes of that owner.
26:47
SPEAKER_02: A, poke holes in my argument.
26:49
SPEAKER_02: B, what follow up questions come to mind for you?
26:52
SPEAKER_02: From there,
26:53
SPEAKER_02: you know,
26:53
SPEAKER_02: ChatGPT is phenomenal at saying,
26:55
SPEAKER_02: hey,
26:56
SPEAKER_02: here's some things that maybe you didn't think about.
26:58
And let's say it gives you 10 different recommendations or 10
27:01
different follow up questions.
27:03
Oftentimes you may find that six to eight of those follow up
27:06
questions are really
27:07
valid points and are going to be really great additions for you
27:10
to add into your article.
27:11
SPEAKER_02: And from there,
27:12
SPEAKER_02: you've leveraged the best that the internet has to offer,
27:15
SPEAKER_02: but you've also not just trusted it as the objective truth and said,
27:19
SPEAKER_02: hey,
27:19
SPEAKER_02: let me treat it as an opinion.
27:21
SPEAKER_02: Let me see what are these data points I agree with,
27:23
SPEAKER_02: but let me use this to just get some other ideas out there.
27:27
SPEAKER_02: Another example might be,
27:29
let's say I'm writing that article for e-commerce founders who
27:33
are considering
27:34
SPEAKER_02: whether they should invest in SEO.
27:36
SPEAKER_02: I may tell ChatGPT, like, hey, here's this article that I'm writing.
27:39
SPEAKER_02: Here's the audience I'm writing it for.
27:41
Generate 10 unique sounding title ideas that I might use as my
27:46
title for my blog article.
27:48
SPEAKER_02: And,
27:48
SPEAKER_02: you know,
27:49
SPEAKER_02: maybe half the ideas are garbage,
27:50
but maybe one or two of the titles ends up being far better
27:53
than something that I
27:54
SPEAKER_02: could come up with.
27:55
SPEAKER_02: Or at the very least,
27:56
maybe it gives me some great thoughts based on the trends I'm
27:58
seeing to say,
27:59
SPEAKER_02: hey,
28:00
SPEAKER_02: I don't love any of these exactly as they are,
28:02
but I'm going to take most of this title and then I'm going to
28:05
tweak it a little
28:05
SPEAKER_02: bit so it comes in my own words.
28:07
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
28:08
Another thing you can do is AI in particular is phenomenal in
28:12
terms of summarizing
28:13
SPEAKER_02: core concepts into layman's terms.
28:17
SPEAKER_02: So, you know, great example of this.
28:19
Probably a year ago,
28:21
we were talking to a business that is like a server management business.
28:25
SPEAKER_02: It's a little bit outside.
28:27
SPEAKER_02: It's a lot outside our realm of expertise.
28:30
SPEAKER_02: But we.
28:31
SPEAKER_02: I was looking for more information about it.
28:32
I didn't want to sound like an idiot when I was going into this
28:35
first call with
28:36
SPEAKER_02: their team after they scheduled a consultation with us.
28:38
SPEAKER_02: So I just asked ChatGPT, I said, hey, explain Kubernetes to me.
28:42
SPEAKER_02: Like I'm five years old.
28:44
SPEAKER_02: And it gave me this incredible example about like managing,
28:47
like being an event host that's pushing people into one room
28:51
based on when one room
28:52
SPEAKER_02: gets filled up and the other room has availability.
28:55
SPEAKER_02: And still to this day,
28:56
like that is the example I think of when I'm trying to explain
28:59
Kubernetes to someone.
29:02
SPEAKER_02: So synthesizing really complex concepts,
29:05
SPEAKER_02: finding other ways to explain ideas to people,
29:07
SPEAKER_02: using it as a sounding board for the first draft of your article,
29:10
using it for blog topic ideation that you might want to look
29:13
deeper into on your own.
29:15
SPEAKER_02: They're all phenomenal use cases for AI.
29:17
A lot of rambling aside,
29:19
but I would really just say don't trust it as the objective truth.
29:21
Treat it as a really good idea tool that can really help you if
29:26
used correctly.
29:28
SPEAKER_01: Those are great.
29:28
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
29:29
phenomenal explanation and ways to use it where you're not
29:34
fully dependent on it,
29:35
SPEAKER_01: but you're trying to elevate your game.
29:37
And I love that example of taking that first call with a client
29:41
that in an industry
29:42
SPEAKER_01: that you didn't have a lot of knowledge in and all of a sudden you did.
29:47
SPEAKER_01: And wow, look at that.
29:48
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you used it in a way to make yourself better, right?
29:52
SPEAKER_01: improve your own business skills.
29:56
SPEAKER_01: And that's what you want to do.
29:57
SPEAKER_01: And I love all those examples.
30:00
SPEAKER_01: Let's talk some specifics.
30:02
Let's go back to when you kind of laid out a three-part
30:06
strategy that you would use.
30:07
Let me ask you some very pinpointed questions here about things
30:10
that are important.
30:12
SPEAKER_01: Title tags and meta descriptions.
30:14
SPEAKER_01: Should I spend time as I'm getting my store ready to launch?
30:17
Should I get in there and write title tags and meta
30:19
descriptions for my homepage,
30:21
SPEAKER_01: for my category pages,
30:22
SPEAKER_01: for all my products?
30:25
Where's the thought process these days on that and how much
30:29
effort I need to put into that?
30:30
SPEAKER_02: Oh, great question.
30:35
SPEAKER_02: My simplified answer would be I personally look at title tags as one of,
30:39
if not the most important thing you can do in terms of sending
30:43
a clear signal to
30:44
SPEAKER_02: Google about what your website is about.
30:46
I'd highly encourage putting together customized title tags for
30:50
what I'd refer to
30:50
SPEAKER_02: as like the core pages of your website.
30:53
Privacy policy page,
30:55
no one's going to be clicking on that from search results.
30:57
SPEAKER_02: You can probably skip over that one.
30:59
SPEAKER_02: Terms and conditions, same thing.
31:00
SPEAKER_02: Checkout, you're probably going to have hidden from Google anyways.
31:03
SPEAKER_02: You can ignore that one.
31:05
SPEAKER_02: But your homepage,
31:06
SPEAKER_02: to your point,
31:06
SPEAKER_02: Ramin,
31:07
SPEAKER_02: any of the product category pages that you're putting together,
31:10
SPEAKER_02: product category pages are actually a huge,
31:13
SPEAKER_02: huge SEO opportunity for e-commerce.
31:15
SPEAKER_02: You know, let's go back to the razor blades example.
31:18
SPEAKER_02: We'll switch to men's razor blades.
31:20
SPEAKER_02: If you offer five different men's razor blades,
31:24
SPEAKER_02: being able to have like a category page,
31:26
maybe one of them is like men's razor blades for sensitive skin
31:29
and three of your
31:30
SPEAKER_02: razor blades fit into that category.
31:32
You've now created like a very specific intent driven page on
31:36
your site that has
31:37
the potential to rank for some really high value keywords that
31:40
very qualified
31:41
SPEAKER_02: customers are going to be looking for.
31:43
SPEAKER_02: But high level, yes, title tags, meta descriptions, absolutely.
31:46
SPEAKER_02: Meta descriptions don't directly play into rankings anymore,
31:49
SPEAKER_02: but they play a really large role in the click through rate.
31:53
SPEAKER_02: Or in other words,
31:54
SPEAKER_02: when you do actually show up in Google,
31:56
how many of the call it 100 people searching for a particular
32:00
query are going to
32:00
click on your listing versus the listing above you versus the
32:03
listing below you.
32:04
SPEAKER_02: So high level, definitely recommend it.
32:07
SPEAKER_01: It's your call to action on Google, right?
32:08
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
32:09
SPEAKER_01: It is, you know, when you show up.
32:11
SPEAKER_01: Tell me about alt text.
32:12
SPEAKER_01: And,
32:12
SPEAKER_01: you know,
32:13
SPEAKER_01: we know that alt text has many uses,
32:15
SPEAKER_01: including accessibility,
32:16
SPEAKER_01: you know,
32:17
SPEAKER_01: for those who have,
32:18
SPEAKER_01: you know,
32:19
SPEAKER_01: reading or seeing disabilities,
32:22
SPEAKER_01: using readers.
32:23
SPEAKER_01: But, you know, talk to me from an SEO standpoint.
32:26
SPEAKER_01: Important.
32:27
SPEAKER_01: Do I need to focus on it from my SEO standpoint?
32:30
SPEAKER_01: Or should I just do it for accessibility?
32:31
SPEAKER_02: Great question.
32:32
SPEAKER_02: So...
32:34
i'm torn with alt text i the recommendation i typically give to
32:37
clients is if
32:39
you're looking for levers to pull in terms of seo that should
32:42
probably be the last
32:44
lever that you pull on that relevancy side of things in my eyes
32:48
the impact that you
32:49
get from choosing you know let's say like keyword rich alt text
32:53
that's going to
32:54
SPEAKER_02: have keywords related to your business the benefit is
32:57
really,
32:58
really marginal compared to some of the other things you could
33:00
put your time into.
33:01
To your point,
33:02
though,
33:02
alt text plays a really big role in terms of user experience.
33:06
SPEAKER_02: It is definitely a compliance issue,
33:08
and that is actually a very real thing that businesses can get
33:11
sued for not
33:13
SPEAKER_02: including alt text on images on their site.
33:16
what i would generally recommend is talk to your developer see
33:21
if there is a
33:22
straightforward process that you can build out from the get-go
33:25
that's going to auto
33:26
populate alt text especially if you have a lot of different
33:29
skews that you're
33:30
currently offering because if you have 500 different skews and
33:33
you're adding or
33:34
removing skews all the time adding in alt text for let's say
33:37
five different image
33:38
variants for each product is going to become a really big time
33:41
suck really quickly
33:42
SPEAKER_02: if you can find a way to automate some of that that's going to be huge
33:46
SPEAKER_02: If you just,
33:46
SPEAKER_02: let's say,
33:47
SPEAKER_02: have five SKUs right now,
33:48
SPEAKER_02: I'd say take a couple hours,
33:49
SPEAKER_02: do it manually on your own right now.
33:51
But absolutely essential to do for user experience for those
33:55
individuals that are
33:56
SPEAKER_02: vision impaired and also,
33:58
SPEAKER_02: frankly,
33:58
SPEAKER_02: to avoid a lawsuit.
34:01
SPEAKER_02: SEO, I'd say it's a pretty minimal impact.
34:04
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
34:04
if you can squeeze a keyword or two in there that doesn't seem
34:07
blatantly out of place,
34:09
SPEAKER_02: I'd say do it.
34:10
SPEAKER_02: But you'll see a pretty minimal gain from doing that from an SEO side.
34:14
SPEAKER_01: Nice,
34:14
SPEAKER_01: and we'll link to,
34:16
SPEAKER_01: I created a GPT that goes in,
34:18
SPEAKER_01: we had a client that had 800 products without alt text on there,
34:23
SPEAKER_01: and was worried about the accessibility side of things,
34:25
SPEAKER_01: but also felt maybe there's some SEO value,
34:28
SPEAKER_01: but I'm glad you clarified that,
34:29
SPEAKER_01: but to,
34:31
have ChatGPT went in there and took care of the alt text and
34:35
then regenerated the
34:36
SPEAKER_01: product file back.
34:38
SPEAKER_01: So I was blown away.
34:40
SPEAKER_01: Yes, I was blown away.
34:41
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
34:41
SPEAKER_01: it took a lot of prompts to get there,
34:43
SPEAKER_01: but ultimately gave a framework for an actual creating a GPT around it.
34:48
SPEAKER_01: So we're working on that.
34:49
SPEAKER_01: We'll post to that because I think that could help.
34:51
SPEAKER_01: And I agree to your point.
34:52
SPEAKER_01: Accessibility is a big thing.
34:54
SPEAKER_01: It's a big issue out there.
34:56
SPEAKER_01: Again, thank you for clarifying on the SEO side of things.
34:59
SPEAKER_01: Let's talk content real quickly.
35:03
If I can cut you off just for a minute,
35:04
please send me that link to that GPT when it is ready.
35:08
SPEAKER_02: I would love to roll that out for our clients.
35:11
SPEAKER_02: But anyway, sorry to interrupt you.
35:13
SPEAKER_02: Just wanted to mention that.
35:13
SPEAKER_02: I would love to see it.
35:15
SPEAKER_01: Great.
35:15
SPEAKER_01: Love to share it.
35:16
SPEAKER_01: That's kind of what it's out there for.
35:18
SPEAKER_01: Let's talk content really quickly again.
35:22
SPEAKER_01: How many words?
35:22
SPEAKER_01: What's the going rate these days on a blog?
35:25
SPEAKER_01: Do I need to go 1,500, 2,000?
35:25
SPEAKER_01: Are we up to 3,000?
35:26
SPEAKER_01: I remember back in the day we could do 750.
35:28
SPEAKER_01: We could be okay.
35:29
SPEAKER_01: But that's clearly not the case anymore.
35:35
SPEAKER_02: I miss those days.
35:36
SPEAKER_02: I remember when I first started out in SEO, I was doing blog content.
35:39
SPEAKER_02: I was writing like a couple articles a week.
35:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and it was great.
35:43
SPEAKER_02: You could write, you know, these 500, 700 word articles.
35:45
SPEAKER_02: You could rank pretty quickly.
35:47
And I would say it's constantly this ongoing battle where the
35:51
word count is going
35:52
SPEAKER_02: up and up and up.
35:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
35:54
SPEAKER_02: So I'll answer that in a couple different parts.
35:57
SPEAKER_02: One,
35:58
my general guidance is aim for like 1500 to 2500 words for a
36:04
long form SEO driven article,
36:07
really an article that you're hoping to get results by ranking
36:10
in a search engine.
36:12
SPEAKER_02: I'd encourage if you're trying to rank for a particular theme,
36:15
SPEAKER_02: go to Google,
36:16
SPEAKER_02: pull up the top 10 results that come up on Google.
36:18
And,
36:19
you know,
36:19
there are all sorts of tools that can automate this process.
36:22
But you can even be as straightforward as just doing like a
36:25
basic word count or
36:26
SPEAKER_02: copy and paste the article into Google Docs.
36:29
There's all sorts of different like Chrome or Firefox
36:31
extensions that will do a
36:32
SPEAKER_02: word count for you.
36:33
But get a rough word count and go off of the data that you
36:36
specifically see there.
36:38
SPEAKER_02: If you look at search results and you see, hey,
36:40
Average result for this type of query that I want to rank for
36:43
is a thousand words.
36:45
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you can get away with a shorter form article.
36:46
SPEAKER_02: If it's 4000 words, you might need to go way more in depth.
36:51
SPEAKER_02: One of my theories,
36:52
SPEAKER_02: though,
36:52
SPEAKER_02: is that we're going to at the moment,
36:54
SPEAKER_02: that is where things currently work.
36:56
SPEAKER_02: You know, April 2024.
36:57
SPEAKER_02: One of my theories is that we're going to see that change in 2020.
37:03
SPEAKER_02: Whether it's this year,
37:03
SPEAKER_02: whether it's next year,
37:04
I feel pretty confident that we'll start to see this change a
37:07
little bit more in
37:07
SPEAKER_02: the near future.
37:09
SPEAKER_02: Right now,
37:10
it's really straightforward to go to ChatGPT or any of these
37:13
other tools that are
37:14
oftentimes layered on ChatGPT as their base and get a 2000 word
37:19
article about a
37:19
SPEAKER_02: particular topic.
37:21
SPEAKER_02: Yes, it's going to be AI generated.
37:23
SPEAKER_02: It's not going to sound very human.
37:24
SPEAKER_02: It's not going to be pleasant to read,
37:26
SPEAKER_02: but it's really straightforward to get a long form blog article.
37:31
One of my theories is that we are going to gradually start
37:35
seeing a shift where
37:36
we're going to have content that is not just necessarily the
37:40
longest content that's
37:42
SPEAKER_02: ranking best in Google,
37:43
SPEAKER_02: which oftentimes is the trend today.
37:45
SPEAKER_02: But instead,
37:45
we're going to start to see the shift that articles that are
37:48
quicker to get to the
37:49
point that provide that better user experience that inject more
37:53
of like a nuanced
37:54
opinion on a particular subject matter are going to be the
37:57
content pieces that
37:58
SPEAKER_02: drive the best results.
37:59
So one of the things that our team is actually starting to do
38:02
that we're I'm really
38:04
liking the early data that we're seeing from it is we're trying
38:07
to radically shift
38:08
SPEAKER_02: the way that we approach blog content.
38:10
SPEAKER_02: We're still writing longer form articles,
38:13
SPEAKER_02: but if we're writing,
38:14
let's say that same article about why e-commerce business
38:18
owners should invest in SEO.
38:21
SPEAKER_02: Chances are,
38:21
SPEAKER_02: if you go to Google today,
38:22
SPEAKER_02: you're going to see a pretty similar format for those articles.
38:25
SPEAKER_02: Section one is going to be why SEO matters.
38:29
SPEAKER_02: Section two is going to be what is SEO.
38:31
Section three is going to be a thousand words that's going to
38:33
explain everything
38:34
SPEAKER_02: you can do to rank an SEO.
38:36
SPEAKER_02: And then that section at the very bottom,
38:38
SPEAKER_02: the last 200 words,
38:39
is going to say why e-commerce business owners should be
38:42
investing in SEO specifically.
38:44
So if that's a 2000 word article,
38:46
the first 1800 words of that are really just filler.
38:49
It's kind of just getting in the way of the experience people
38:51
want to have.
38:53
SPEAKER_02: We've been starting to take a different approach now where we say,
38:55
SPEAKER_02: hey,
38:55
SPEAKER_02: what is like the singular thing that people want to read?
38:59
SPEAKER_02: And we're starting to actually put that at the top of the article.
39:02
So it's not necessarily the most intuitive for user experience
39:05
because oftentimes
39:05
it's a really short introduction followed by like the direct
39:08
answer that someone's
39:09
SPEAKER_02: looking for.
39:10
And then we'll take all that other stuff that maybe at the
39:13
exact moment is still
39:14
really important to have in the article to rank in modern day
39:17
search engines.
39:18
SPEAKER_02: We're putting that at the bottom.
39:20
SPEAKER_02: And it creates this really wonky like article layout.
39:23
The reality is most of your readers aren't reading the full
39:26
blog article,
39:26
though.
39:27
SPEAKER_02: Most of them are pulling it up.
39:28
SPEAKER_02: They're skimming to the section that's most relevant to them.
39:30
They're reading that and then they're taking action or not
39:32
taking action based on
39:34
SPEAKER_02: that small segment.
39:35
SPEAKER_02: So I'd encourage anyone who is writing content right now for their blog.
39:41
SPEAKER_02: As I mentioned at the top,
39:43
look at the individual search results today and let that be
39:46
your judge for any
39:47
SPEAKER_02: particular theme you want to rank for.
39:49
SPEAKER_02: From there,
39:50
SPEAKER_02: maybe start out with a really brief introduction,
39:52
SPEAKER_02: but then jump right into the meat of the article.
39:55
Have that 500-word answer be really the first thing that your
39:59
reader sees.
40:00
SPEAKER_02: And then from there,
40:00
SPEAKER_02: if there are other details that you think are important to incorporate,
40:04
SPEAKER_02: the who,
40:05
SPEAKER_02: what,
40:05
SPEAKER_02: when,
40:05
SPEAKER_02: where,
40:06
SPEAKER_02: why type questions,
40:08
SPEAKER_02: incorporate those below that core point so that those who want that extra
40:12
SPEAKER_02: information are able to access it,
40:14
but you don't necessarily have 90% of your readers needing to
40:18
skim through all of
40:18
SPEAKER_02: that in order to get there.
40:21
SPEAKER_02: If any non-e-commerce businesses,
40:23
SPEAKER_02: particularly recipe site owners,
40:25
SPEAKER_02: are looking at this,
40:27
SPEAKER_02: please stop making us scroll through your 2000-word life story.
40:31
Give us the recipe at the top of the article and then put your
40:33
life story in if you
40:34
SPEAKER_02: think it's going to help us to rank.
40:35
SPEAKER_02: You'll save us all so much time.
40:38
SPEAKER_01: Well,
40:39
SPEAKER_01: first of all,
40:39
SPEAKER_01: thank you for for,
40:41
SPEAKER_01: you know,
40:42
SPEAKER_01: going in this new direction,
40:44
because I feel like a lot of blogs out there are very much like
40:47
YouTube ads,
40:49
SPEAKER_01: right,
40:49
where we're just going to keep telling you that we're going to
40:51
tell you something.
40:52
SPEAKER_01: And we're just going to say it, say it 100 times.
40:54
SPEAKER_01: And then maybe at the end,
40:56
we might give you a link that that's going to tell you that
40:57
we're going to tell you
40:58
SPEAKER_01: about it again.
40:59
SPEAKER_01: And,
41:00
SPEAKER_01: you know,
41:01
SPEAKER_01: I,
41:01
SPEAKER_01: you're right,
41:02
SPEAKER_01: people don't,
41:03
SPEAKER_01: you know,
41:03
SPEAKER_01: this is also a question that comes up a lot.
41:05
SPEAKER_01: Do people do people
41:07
SPEAKER_01: actually read my blog or am I writing for search engines?
41:11
SPEAKER_01: And I think what you're,
41:12
SPEAKER_01: you know,
41:12
SPEAKER_01: coming with this approach,
41:14
SPEAKER_01: you're helping answer a question that's out there.
41:17
SPEAKER_01: You're kind of setting this up and for those out there,
41:19
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
41:19
SPEAKER_01: you see questions on Google,
41:21
SPEAKER_01: right?
41:21
SPEAKER_01: When you do a Google search, you see those batch of questions.
41:24
SPEAKER_01: Does this help,
41:25
SPEAKER_01: this process that you're talking about,
41:27
does this help maybe get you inserted into an answer for one of
41:31
those questions on Google?
41:32
SPEAKER_02: Oh, great question.
41:33
SPEAKER_02: So
41:34
SPEAKER_02: Short answer, it can definitely play a role in it.
41:37
SPEAKER_02: So if you go to Google today and you are,
41:42
SPEAKER_02: let's say you search for,
41:44
SPEAKER_02: we'll go back to the razor blades example,
41:45
SPEAKER_02: you search for best men's razor blades,
41:47
chances are you'll see that little snippet on Google referred
41:50
to as PAA or people
41:52
SPEAKER_02: also ask,
41:53
SPEAKER_02: that's going to have a whole bunch of follow-up questions.
41:55
SPEAKER_02: You can click on any of those.
41:57
Google will typically give you a short little snippet answer
41:59
that they're pulling
42:00
SPEAKER_02: directly from one of the other web pages on the internet.
42:03
SPEAKER_02: So if you're the business that's providing those answers,
42:06
SPEAKER_02: in many cases,
42:06
SPEAKER_02: you may be able to show up,
42:08
SPEAKER_02: you know,
42:08
SPEAKER_02: on position one on Google,
42:10
but you may also be able to show up in a couple of those little
42:12
snippets as well.
42:13
So those readers who have like more fine tuned questions are
42:17
going to be able to go
42:17
SPEAKER_02: directly to that specific section of your page that answers it.
42:21
SPEAKER_02: And I'd actually say when you're writing a blog article,
42:24
one of the tactics I find really effective when you're trying
42:27
to figure out what's
42:28
SPEAKER_02: going to be essential to include,
42:29
SPEAKER_02: go to Google,
42:30
SPEAKER_02: type in that phrase,
42:31
see what search results currently pop up for you and see what
42:34
questions Google auto
42:35
SPEAKER_02: generates and that people also ask section.
42:38
SPEAKER_02: That's a gold nugget that Google is saying,
42:40
SPEAKER_02: hey,
42:41
SPEAKER_02: we're seeing that you're searching for this core theme right here.
42:43
SPEAKER_02: We suspect that all of these questions are front of mind for you as well.
42:48
SPEAKER_02: Google's sending you a pretty strong signal that, hey,
42:51
If you're talking about these things as well in your article
42:54
that's trying to rank
42:54
SPEAKER_02: for this theme,
42:55
SPEAKER_02: you might be on to something big here.
42:58
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
42:58
So literally using Google as your tool,
43:01
in this case,
43:02
as your SEO tool,
43:03
what a novel idea.
43:05
SPEAKER_01: What a novel idea.
43:06
SPEAKER_01: I love it.
43:06
SPEAKER_01: I love it.
43:07
SPEAKER_01: And speaking of tools,
43:09
and I just want to speak around and get into the topic of
43:13
keyword research.
43:15
SPEAKER_01: because a lot of the SEO tools out there are predominantly,
43:18
SPEAKER_01: that's what people are using them for.
43:20
And I personally feel like SEO keyword research can be like a
43:25
rabbit hole,
43:25
right?
43:25
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
43:26
SPEAKER_01: you'll start one place and next thing you know,
43:28
SPEAKER_01: you're looking 20 steps in and you're like,
43:31
SPEAKER_01: wait,
43:31
SPEAKER_01: where was I?
43:32
SPEAKER_01: What started this process?
43:35
SPEAKER_01: One,
43:37
SPEAKER_01: What tools do you recommend using for keyword research?
43:40
SPEAKER_01: And two, what process do you utilize?
43:44
Would you recommend so it doesn't have to be such a rabbit hole
43:46
or maybe it is and
43:47
SPEAKER_01: that's just the way it is and deal with it type of situation?
43:50
SPEAKER_02: Oh, definitely.
43:52
so there are a lot of different strategies that you can take um
43:56
i'll start out with
43:56
the tools let's say um what i personally enjoy using the most
44:01
in terms of keyword
44:02
research is a tool called i still to this day don't know what
44:05
the official
44:06
pronunciation is for it uh whether it's ah refs or a refs i've
44:10
heard people in the
44:10
industry call it by a million different names but they have two
44:14
brand names it's
44:16
SPEAKER_01: crazy
44:17
SPEAKER_02: I give them credit.
44:18
SPEAKER_02: They actually did a really fun April Fool's Day thing a couple weeks ago,
44:22
SPEAKER_02: I guess it was,
44:23
SPEAKER_02: where they had certain pages of their tool.
44:25
SPEAKER_02: You would load it.
44:26
SPEAKER_02: You see their logo in the top left corner.
44:28
SPEAKER_02: Certain pages would have one spelling of their brand name.
44:32
SPEAKER_02: Other pages would have a different spelling.
44:33
SPEAKER_02: So I give them the little, I'll tip my cap to them for that.
44:37
SPEAKER_02: I love Arefs for that.
44:39
SPEAKER_02: SEMrush is another really great tool.
44:41
SPEAKER_02: I got started 12 years ago using SEMrush.
44:44
SPEAKER_02: I've shifted personally a little bit more to Arefs,
44:46
SPEAKER_02: but we still use both tools on a daily basis.
44:50
SPEAKER_02: There are so many different tools that are out there.
44:52
The caveat that I always like to say about it is these tools
44:57
are built based on...
45:00
SPEAKER_02: in many cases are built on projections of data,
45:03
SPEAKER_02: but always are based on data that comes from the past.
45:07
SPEAKER_02: So if you're searching,
45:08
SPEAKER_02: you know,
45:09
SPEAKER_02: if you go to Google today and you search or you go to a refs,
45:12
SPEAKER_02: let's say,
45:13
SPEAKER_02: and you search for like 2024 related keywords,
45:17
SPEAKER_02: you know,
45:17
SPEAKER_02: a keyword like best razor blades of 2024,
45:20
You're going to get skewed data based on the fact that in the
45:24
past 12 months that a
45:25
SPEAKER_02: lot of that data was compiled in,
45:27
SPEAKER_02: people weren't necessarily searching for 2024,
45:30
SPEAKER_02: let's say,
45:31
SPEAKER_02: in that keyword search originally.
45:32
They might have been searching for 2023 or razor blades without
45:36
the date associated.
45:39
So it tends to be like a backwards looking mechanism for
45:42
analyzing opportunities.
45:44
SPEAKER_02: If you're working in an industry where it's an established industry,
45:48
SPEAKER_02: it's been around for 10 years or even for five years,
45:51
keyword research is phenomenal in terms of telling you what
45:54
have people looked for
45:55
in the past and what can we safely say they're going to be
45:57
looking for in the future.
45:58
SPEAKER_02: If you're operating in a brand new industry,
46:00
SPEAKER_02: there's going to be a little bit of lag time in that data.
46:03
SPEAKER_02: So certainly rely on these tools.
46:05
SPEAKER_02: They are phenomenal.
46:06
SPEAKER_02: They're going to be one of your best resources.
46:08
SPEAKER_02: But take the data with a grain of salt.
46:10
SPEAKER_02: Just because AREF says,
46:11
SPEAKER_02: hey,
46:11
there's no one searching for this theme today or there's only
46:14
10 people searching
46:15
SPEAKER_02: for it today,
46:16
SPEAKER_02: those numbers aren't always 100% accurate.
46:18
SPEAKER_02: Oftentimes, they're a good starting point for your analysis.
46:22
But within that,
46:23
a couple of things you can do in terms of finding opportunities.
46:27
SPEAKER_02: One of the first things that I recommend is,
46:29
SPEAKER_02: first of all,
46:30
SPEAKER_02: pull together a list of all your competitors.
46:33
SPEAKER_02: Second of all,
46:34
SPEAKER_02: go to Google and I'll use this like same search string on,
46:37
SPEAKER_02: you know,
46:37
SPEAKER_02: nearly like a maybe like a weekly basis.
46:40
Let's say when we're doing analysis for clients of search for
46:44
the theme best insert
46:45
SPEAKER_02: industry blogs.
46:47
SPEAKER_02: So in the case of razor blades, it might be best razor blade blogs.
46:51
What you're typically going to get is all these different
46:53
results showing up on
46:54
Google that are going to be either like Feedspot or these
46:57
individual blog articles
46:59
SPEAKER_02: that say,
46:59
SPEAKER_02: here are the X best razor blade blogs of 2024 or 2023.
47:06
SPEAKER_02: Go there, pull up all of those blogs in a separate tab as well.
47:09
SPEAKER_02: Now take all of these URLs,
47:11
SPEAKER_02: the blogs that were recommended in these sites,
47:14
SPEAKER_02: the competitor blogs that you're finding,
47:16
SPEAKER_02: plug them into any of these keyword research tools,
47:19
SPEAKER_02: SEMrush,
47:19
SPEAKER_02: A-Refs,
47:20
SPEAKER_02: you name it.
47:21
And what you're gonna find is a rough estimate of how many
47:24
people each of these sites,
47:26
how many readers each of these sites are getting on a monthly
47:29
basis from search
47:30
SPEAKER_02: engines like Google.
47:32
SPEAKER_02: From there, you can start to reverse engineer.
47:34
SPEAKER_02: You can maybe say, hey, we have 20 blogs right here.
47:36
Out of these 20,
47:39
maybe 10 of them are getting less than 1,000 visitors per month.
47:42
SPEAKER_02: Let's remove them from our analysis.
47:44
SPEAKER_02: Now, five of these blogs get 100,000 readers per month.
47:48
SPEAKER_02: One of these blogs gets a million readers a month.
47:50
SPEAKER_02: Let's just look at these.
47:52
So you now have like five to six really good blogs that you can
47:55
look at and you can
47:56
SPEAKER_02: using these tools actually look to see how many people,
48:00
how many readers are they getting every single month for search
48:03
engines for each
48:04
SPEAKER_02: page on their website?
48:06
SPEAKER_02: Now,
48:07
SPEAKER_02: Granted, this is third-party estimates.
48:09
If you have access to Google Analytics,
48:12
you'll see slightly different data popping up in there.
48:15
But given that you're probably not going to get your competitor
48:17
to sign off on
48:18
SPEAKER_02: giving you Google Analytics access,
48:20
SPEAKER_02: these are a really good starting point for your analysis.
48:24
So one of my favorite things to do is take a look at these
48:26
competitor sites and
48:28
SPEAKER_02: look to understand,
48:29
SPEAKER_02: first of all,
48:29
SPEAKER_02: what individual articles are driving the most visibility for them?
48:34
Second of all,
48:34
which of these articles that are driving visibility for them
48:37
have a
48:39
SPEAKER_02: higher likelihood of actually driving a purchase decision.
48:42
SPEAKER_02: And here I would say oftentimes just go off of your gut instinct.
48:46
If it's a,
48:47
you know,
48:48
what I'd call like a definition page,
48:49
like what is a razor blade?
48:51
SPEAKER_02: It's great if someone's getting 10,000 readers a month,
48:53
SPEAKER_02: but you're probably not getting customers from that.
48:55
SPEAKER_02: On the other hand,
48:56
SPEAKER_02: if your competitor ranks for best razor blades for sensitive skin,
49:03
there's a really good chance they're getting some serious
49:04
customers from that
49:06
SPEAKER_02: particular page right there.
49:08
So start building up a list of all those core themes that would
49:10
be really essential
49:11
for you to include on your blog as well to at least match what
49:15
your competitors are doing.
49:17
SPEAKER_02: Outside of that,
49:19
what I oftentimes find is really effective is if you're working
49:22
in the industry,
49:24
SPEAKER_02: pay attention to industry trends,
49:25
SPEAKER_02: pay attention to things that people are talking about on Reddit,
49:28
SPEAKER_02: Slack communities,
49:29
SPEAKER_02: LinkedIn,
49:30
SPEAKER_02: you name it,
49:31
SPEAKER_02: and jot down those ideas on a regular basis.
49:34
SPEAKER_02: What I find really effective is set aside time,
49:37
SPEAKER_02: whether it's once a week,
49:38
SPEAKER_02: once a month,
49:38
SPEAKER_02: once a quarter,
49:40
SPEAKER_02: that you actually go to Google,
49:41
SPEAKER_02: take those concepts,
49:42
SPEAKER_02: plug them into Google,
49:44
and what you can see is who are the brands that currently rank
49:46
on Google for those
49:47
SPEAKER_02: themes today.
49:48
Using those same keyword research tools,
49:51
A-Refs,
49:51
SEMrush,
49:53
you can actually see how much traffic
49:55
are each of these individual pages that currently rank for the
49:58
same getting today.
49:58
SPEAKER_02: I call this reverse engineered keyword research.
50:01
SPEAKER_02: From there,
50:02
SPEAKER_02: you can start looking at it and saying,
50:03
SPEAKER_02: okay,
50:04
SPEAKER_02: there's this new trend I'm hearing a lot of people talking about.
50:08
SPEAKER_02: Let's see who's currently ranking for it.
50:10
SPEAKER_02: You see one of your competitors pops up,
50:12
SPEAKER_02: You can then look and see,
50:13
SPEAKER_02: hey,
50:13
what keywords are they actually ranking for with this blog
50:16
article they wrote?
50:17
And you can make an assessment based on how much estimated
50:20
value they're getting
50:21
SPEAKER_02: from that theme to say,
50:22
SPEAKER_02: should I be writing this as well?
50:24
SPEAKER_02: Or is this a really small opportunity?
50:25
SPEAKER_02: Why don't I circle back on this in six months?
50:29
so those are two of the big strategies i like to use to your
50:32
point you can also
50:33
just go really deep down the rabbit hole of going into any of
50:36
these keyword
50:37
research tools you may start out searching for like a thousand
50:40
different keyword
50:41
variants you may plug in a head term like razor blades and
50:45
click to see all these
50:45
follow-up questions that are coming out of it answer the public
50:49
is another tool
50:50
i'll give a shout out for that is really good if you plug in a
50:53
head term at saying
50:54
SPEAKER_02: hey here's a bunch of questions
50:56
that we assume your readers are probably asking related to this
51:00
core theme.
51:01
SPEAKER_02: You can take all those ideas,
51:02
plug them into a keyword research tool and see if there's any
51:05
search volume behind
51:06
SPEAKER_02: them as well.
51:07
So it's it's a really interesting mix of like analytics and
51:11
also creativity coming
51:12
SPEAKER_02: together in an ideal world.
51:14
You're coming you're starting out from a creative standpoint
51:17
and then you're
51:18
SPEAKER_02: looking at the data to back up your decisions.
51:21
But you can also just do a deep dive data plunge and see what
51:24
you come up with and
51:25
SPEAKER_02: take it from there.
51:27
SPEAKER_01: Okay, that's good.
51:28
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
51:28
and am I taking the same approach if I'm trying to find
51:30
keywords for the site as
51:32
SPEAKER_01: opposed to my blog?
51:34
SPEAKER_01: You know,
51:35
am I paying attention to different search volume numbers and
51:38
different keyword
51:39
SPEAKER_01: difficulty numbers?
51:41
SPEAKER_01: Or am I taking the same approach,
51:42
SPEAKER_01: you know,
51:42
SPEAKER_01: both for,
51:43
SPEAKER_01: you know,
51:44
SPEAKER_01: I feel like I always,
51:45
SPEAKER_01: I personally want to split out my content work.
51:48
You know,
51:48
each time I do a blog,
51:49
I want to do keyword research around it as opposed to the site.
51:54
SPEAKER_01: you know, in and of itself?
51:56
SPEAKER_01: How do you approach those?
51:57
SPEAKER_01: How do you separate those or do you not separate?
51:59
SPEAKER_02: Oh, great question.
52:00
So what we'll do when we kick off a new relationship with a
52:04
business that we're
52:04
SPEAKER_02: partnering with is we'll look to see,
52:07
SPEAKER_02: you know,
52:07
SPEAKER_02: what are the current pages on your site?
52:08
SPEAKER_02: You know,
52:09
I would refer to this as like a keyword gap assessment or a lot
52:13
of different
52:13
SPEAKER_02: jargony terms you can use for it.
52:15
SPEAKER_02: But we'll look to see,
52:16
SPEAKER_02: you know,
52:16
SPEAKER_02: what what pages currently exist on the site,
52:19
SPEAKER_02: whether they be like product pages,
52:21
SPEAKER_02: product category pages,
52:23
SPEAKER_02: you name it.
52:24
And we'll look to see what are the core themes that we need to
52:28
incorporate on our
52:29
entire website for us really to be the brand that dominates in
52:34
that narrow
52:34
SPEAKER_02: positioning that we defined from the onset.
52:38
SPEAKER_02: We'll look to say, what are all those core themes?
52:40
And then we'll look to map each of those core themes either to
52:43
an existing page on
52:44
SPEAKER_02: the site,
52:45
SPEAKER_02: or we'll look at it and say,
52:46
SPEAKER_02: hey,
52:48
we don't really have a page on the site today that matches this
52:52
particular type of
52:53
SPEAKER_02: search query.
52:54
SPEAKER_02: Let's either A,
52:55
SPEAKER_02: create a new product page,
52:56
SPEAKER_02: B,
52:57
SPEAKER_02: create a new product category page,
52:58
SPEAKER_02: or C,
52:59
create an educational blog article that is really focused on
53:03
ranking for this core theme.
53:06
SPEAKER_02: So that is the tactic I find most effective is start out by saying,
53:10
SPEAKER_02: what is that core theme I want to rank for?
53:12
SPEAKER_02: And then from there,
53:13
SPEAKER_02: ask yourself,
53:14
SPEAKER_02: what are the core sub themes that fall under this umbrella term?
53:18
And what is the best page either on my site today or what's the
53:22
best page I need to
53:22
create in the next 12 months that is going to match that
53:26
subtopic theme so that I
53:27
SPEAKER_02: can A,
53:28
rank just directly for that theme that is going to drive good
53:31
search volume,
53:33
SPEAKER_02: but B,
53:33
so I can show Google that I am the authority on this and I have
53:36
an understanding of
53:37
all these subtopics related to this broad umbrella topic that
53:41
I'm looking to rank for.
53:43
So a couple things that I'll share that can really help with
53:47
that analysis because saying,
53:49
SPEAKER_02: you know,
53:49
SPEAKER_02: hey,
53:50
SPEAKER_02: find every subtopic related to your main topic,
53:55
SPEAKER_02: it could be more actionable,
53:56
SPEAKER_02: I'll say.
53:56
SPEAKER_02: A couple of the things that I find really effective for this,
54:00
one of my favorite SEO tools to work with today is a tool
54:03
called ClearScope.
54:05
SPEAKER_02: Without getting too deep into the weeds,
54:07
they use a statistical analysis method called term frequency
54:11
inverse document frequency.
54:13
term itself isn't super important but it's a tool that is used
54:18
in order to predict
54:19
what sort of themes are going to be perceived as closely
54:23
related to a core theme
54:25
that you're looking to rank for based on themes that are
54:28
currently ranking for that
54:30
particular search query today so i like to use the example of
54:33
like super mario
54:34
world if you're trying to rank first on google by writing an
54:38
educational blog
54:38
SPEAKER_02: article about super mario world
54:41
SPEAKER_02: Really,
54:42
SPEAKER_02: term frequency,
54:42
inverse document frequency analysis is almost definitely going
54:46
to tell you that,
54:47
SPEAKER_02: hey,
54:47
SPEAKER_02: in order to rank for this theme,
54:49
you need to show Google that you're also talking about the
54:52
character Mario,
54:53
SPEAKER_02: first of all.
54:54
SPEAKER_02: You need to mention Luigi.
54:55
SPEAKER_02: You need to make sure you're talking about the main villain, Bowser.
54:58
SPEAKER_02: Make sure you talk about Mushroom Kingdom,
55:00
SPEAKER_02: Princess Peach,
55:01
SPEAKER_02: and all these other core elements,
55:03
SPEAKER_02: Koopa Troopas,
55:05
everything like that that is perceived as being really closely
55:08
related to this
55:09
SPEAKER_02: umbrella theme of Super Mario World.
55:12
SPEAKER_02: So that same thing can be applied to your website.
55:14
SPEAKER_02: ClearScope, it's an expensive tool, but it is a phenomenal tool.
55:18
And there are a lot of other more affordable alternatives that
55:21
I've found aren't
55:23
SPEAKER_02: quite as effective.
55:24
SPEAKER_02: As of today, we've done a lot of tests
55:26
SPEAKER_02: But if you find any tool that does term frequency,
55:29
SPEAKER_02: inverse document frequency analysis,
55:31
SPEAKER_02: that can be a really powerful way to find some of those sub themes.
55:35
Another really great approach you can take is look at your
55:36
competitor's site.
55:38
SPEAKER_02: Specifically,
55:39
what you can actually do is if you take your competitor's
55:41
domain and you type the
55:43
SPEAKER_02: following into Google,
55:44
SPEAKER_02: site colon competitor domain with no spaces in between.
55:49
What you're going to pull is quite a bit of data about indexed
55:52
pages on your
55:53
SPEAKER_02: competitor's site,
55:54
and you're specifically going to see the title tags that Google
55:58
is rendering for
55:59
SPEAKER_02: those pages.
56:00
SPEAKER_02: So from there,
56:01
you can start looking at it and based on the core themes that
56:04
are incorporated in
56:05
SPEAKER_02: the title tags for those sub pages,
56:07
SPEAKER_02: you can make some really safe.
56:10
You can make some let's say some really safe assumptions about
56:14
what are the core
56:14
SPEAKER_02: themes that they're targeting for each page on their site.
56:17
You can start to target a lot of those sub themes as well in
56:20
your pages so that
56:21
SPEAKER_02: you're making sure you do have sub pages related to each of those.
56:25
wow wow first of all your knowledge of super mario brothers
56:28
impressive too that's
56:30
amazing you you know a lot about that but those tools uh you
56:34
know i feel again you
56:35
know if i'm a e-commerce entrepreneur and i maybe can't afford
56:38
to hire an agency
56:40
yet to help me or you know a a professional in in this area i
56:44
might need to be
56:45
looking at tools and understand how to use those tools and you
56:48
know yes these tools
56:49
SPEAKER_01: have a cost to them but
56:51
if they can get you there faster with more knowledge and more information,
56:55
SPEAKER_01: that is valuable,
56:56
SPEAKER_01: valuable.
56:56
Because as we could see,
56:58
everybody who's listening today,
57:00
this is complex.
57:01
SPEAKER_01: There's a lot to go.
57:02
SPEAKER_01: There's a lot to go.
57:03
SPEAKER_01: SEO is a mature industry.
57:05
SPEAKER_01: It's been around, right?
57:06
SPEAKER_01: It's a mature strategy that's been around for quite a long time.
57:10
and with it there are layers now that you have to you know
57:12
really you know take
57:13
into consideration and the last one i want to just touch on is
57:17
link building uh you
57:18
know i i like maybe when i call it you know the third pillar of
57:22
search engine
57:23
optimization um you know i find it sometimes to be the the one
57:27
that's the hardest
57:29
SPEAKER_01: to go after.
57:30
SPEAKER_01: Yes,
57:31
SPEAKER_01: you can write your own content and create blogs,
57:33
SPEAKER_01: perfect,
57:33
SPEAKER_01: good,
57:34
SPEAKER_01: learn the strategies,
57:35
SPEAKER_01: do it.
57:36
SPEAKER_01: You can do the onsite, right?
57:38
SPEAKER_01: You can do your keyword research, you can learn.
57:40
But how do you do link building and how important is link
57:43
building in the overall
57:45
SPEAKER_01: scope of a search engine optimization strategy?
57:48
SPEAKER_02: Oh, great question.
57:50
Link building is,
57:52
in my eyes,
57:53
it is the toughest thing for businesses to handle in-house.
57:57
We've worked with and we've spoken to a lot of businesses that
58:01
have said like,
58:01
SPEAKER_02: hey,
58:02
SPEAKER_02: you know,
58:02
SPEAKER_02: we're going to try and build out our own link building machine.
58:04
SPEAKER_02: And my guidance is generally like, good luck.
58:07
It's really tough and it's really expensive to build an
58:11
effective link building system.
58:14
What I think is important to note within that,
58:15
so Google has come out many times and it's
58:20
SPEAKER_02: I would say probably directly said,
58:22
but definitely indirectly said that they don't like sites doing
58:24
link building for them.
58:26
Oftentimes they see link building as like a way of manipulating
58:29
their their search
58:30
SPEAKER_02: engine ranking system.
58:32
There are a lot of exceptions,
58:33
but a good way to look at it is that most link building.
58:38
SPEAKER_02: is not kosher in Google's eyes.
58:42
SPEAKER_02: There are things that you can do that are 100% by the book.
58:45
But I personally look at link building as similar to like
58:49
speeding on a highway,
58:50
SPEAKER_02: where it's almost like if you,
58:53
SPEAKER_02: you know,
58:53
SPEAKER_02: certainly not legal advice here,
58:56
SPEAKER_02: but if you're going a little bit over the speed limit,
58:58
SPEAKER_02: you know,
58:58
SPEAKER_02: let's say the speed limit is 60 and you're going 70 miles per hour,
59:01
SPEAKER_02: a state trooper is probably not going to pull you over for it.
59:05
SPEAKER_02: If you're if the speed limit is 60 and you're going 120 miles per hour,
59:08
SPEAKER_02: that's really obvious to a state trooper.
59:11
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
59:11
they're probably going to pull you over and you're probably
59:13
going to be in some
59:14
SPEAKER_02: pretty serious trouble for that.
59:16
If you are going to do link building,
59:18
I'd really advocate for doing it conservatively.
59:21
Use it as a tool to help your content to start ranking in
59:25
Google so that other
59:27
SPEAKER_02: businesses can find you,
59:28
SPEAKER_02: other customers can find you,
59:30
and that they will naturally start linking to your content
59:32
because it is the best
59:33
SPEAKER_02: resource on the Internet.
59:35
Treat it as almost like a catalyst that's going to give you a
59:37
chance to compete
59:38
SPEAKER_02: with your big competitors.
59:40
But look at it as an approach that you really are just getting
59:45
yourself into the
59:45
SPEAKER_02: arena to begin with.
59:46
SPEAKER_02: And then your content itself needs to prove itself from there.
59:49
SPEAKER_02: So from there with link building.
59:52
I feel very confident saying that one of the approaches to link
59:56
building that is
59:56
absolutely by the book is if you're doing any sort of like PR
59:59
centric approaches,
1:00:01
SPEAKER_02: assuming it is ethical PR,
1:00:03
assuming you're not doing something illegal just to get your
1:00:05
name in the news.
1:00:08
SPEAKER_02: But there are a lot of different platforms you can work with for that.
1:00:11
SPEAKER_02: Formerly HARO,
1:00:12
SPEAKER_02: or Help a Reporter Out,
1:00:13
now Connectively is a really great platform that I would
1:00:17
encourage any listeners to
1:00:19
SPEAKER_02: sign up for as an expert in your space.
1:00:23
Now Connectively,
1:00:24
apologies if I say HARO,
1:00:25
I'm still trying to switch over to the new name.
1:00:29
But Connectively is a great platform that connects journalists
1:00:33
to subject matter experts.
1:00:35
SPEAKER_02: So journalists will sign up for it.
1:00:37
SPEAKER_02: They may put out a query request and say,
1:00:39
SPEAKER_02: hey,
1:00:39
we're looking for e-commerce business owners who can share
1:00:43
guidance on fulfillment
1:00:45
SPEAKER_02: trends that they are seeing for 2024.
1:00:48
SPEAKER_02: If you are an e-commerce, you know,
1:00:50
SPEAKER_02: business owner or an e-commerce marketer,
1:00:52
SPEAKER_02: let's say,
1:00:52
SPEAKER_02: and you can chime in on fulfillment trends.
1:00:55
SPEAKER_02: You can chime in on things that you're seeing,
1:00:57
SPEAKER_02: things that work well for you,
1:00:58
SPEAKER_02: things that don't work well for you.
1:01:00
You can submit a quote to these journalists and have a very
1:01:03
decent likelihood of
1:01:04
SPEAKER_02: actually being featured in these major publications.
1:01:07
SPEAKER_02: You know, we've helped clients to get featured in Forbes, USA Today.
1:01:11
SPEAKER_02: We've gotten Zapier, HubSpot, Facebook.
1:01:16
SPEAKER_02: We have a pretty big list.
1:01:17
SPEAKER_02: We've gotten featured in quite a few publications from that.
1:01:21
And that is a really great approach that business owners can
1:01:24
take on firsthand in
1:01:26
SPEAKER_02: order to get some really high quality links.
1:01:28
SPEAKER_02: In my experience,
1:01:29
SPEAKER_02: success rate may be like five to 20 percent,
1:01:31
depending on how much time you put into the query and how much
1:01:34
demand or how much
1:01:36
SPEAKER_02: interest the let's say the journalist gets for the quote.
1:01:39
But that is a phenomenal thing that I'd encourage all business
1:01:42
owners to sign up for.
1:01:44
Set aside an hour block or a couple hour long blocks every week
1:01:47
and just start
1:01:48
SPEAKER_02: responding to the queries that you are an expert in.
1:01:51
It's going to take some time to get those links,
1:01:52
but those will work wonders for your brand.
1:01:56
SPEAKER_02: Outside of that,
1:01:56
a lot of other things that you can do directly if you want to
1:01:59
get sites to link
1:02:00
SPEAKER_02: back to you.
1:02:01
SPEAKER_02: If local,
1:02:02
SPEAKER_02: call it if like your local area is really important to your business,
1:02:06
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:02:06
SPEAKER_02: if you're supporting like if you're in the local chamber of commerce,
1:02:09
SPEAKER_02: if you support any local charities,
1:02:12
look for relationships with other businesses in your area that
1:02:17
you can mutually support.
1:02:19
SPEAKER_02: So, for example, look for if you're like a wedding dress company.
1:02:24
Look for maybe DJs that are in your area or DJs that have been
1:02:30
hired by some of the
1:02:31
people that have gotten married that you've helped find the
1:02:33
wedding dress for.
1:02:35
SPEAKER_02: Look for caterers,
1:02:36
SPEAKER_02: everything like that,
1:02:37
and look to see if any of these individuals would include a
1:02:40
link on their website
1:02:42
SPEAKER_02: back to your website.
1:02:43
That sends a really strong signal to Google that you are a
1:02:46
trustworthy brand
1:02:47
because you're ultimately getting this endorsement from all of
1:02:49
these other websites now.
1:02:52
SPEAKER_02: So if you have a really strong local presence,
1:02:55
look for partnerships like that where you can get sites to link
1:02:58
back to you,
1:02:59
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:02:59
SPEAKER_02: call it on like their resource page.
1:03:01
SPEAKER_02: If you're outside of that realm,
1:03:03
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:03:03
SPEAKER_02: one of the things that our team does,
1:03:05
we do a lot of relationship building with other publishers out
1:03:08
there that can be
1:03:10
SPEAKER_02: really time intensive to set up.
1:03:12
But certainly there are opportunities where you could look to
1:03:14
build relationships
1:03:15
SPEAKER_02: with other bloggers in your space.
1:03:17
SPEAKER_02: You could look to collaborate on their blog articles.
1:03:21
SPEAKER_02: You know, Google will tell you guest blogging is against their policies.
1:03:25
What I like to say is if you do small scale guest blogging
1:03:28
where you're writing a
1:03:29
handful of articles for really high authority industry
1:03:32
publications and you're
1:03:33
SPEAKER_02: writing well thought out arguments,
1:03:36
SPEAKER_02: I'd argue that's in everyone's best interest in that
1:03:39
I would say in the long term is something that Google is going
1:03:42
to support.
1:03:43
If you're just guest blogging on a bunch of low quality publications,
1:03:46
probably not.
1:03:47
SPEAKER_02: That's not what Google wants to see.
1:03:50
SPEAKER_02: But link building is a really tricky nut to crack.
1:03:54
That is an area where I do generally recommend working with
1:03:57
agencies just because it's,
1:03:59
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:03:59
if you work with an agency like we've been doing our link
1:04:02
building process,
1:04:03
SPEAKER_02: I think,
1:04:03
SPEAKER_02: for the past five years.
1:04:05
It takes a long time to build up those industry relationships
1:04:08
that we can get links
1:04:09
SPEAKER_02: on a regular basis.
1:04:11
But short term,
1:04:11
you can find a lot of other things you can do to at least start
1:04:14
the process.
1:04:15
SPEAKER_02: You know,
1:04:15
SPEAKER_02: again,
1:04:15
focusing on Connectively or any of these other platforms that
1:04:18
allow you to share
1:04:19
SPEAKER_02: quotes with journalists.
1:04:20
SPEAKER_02: Look for local publications that you can work with.
1:04:24
SPEAKER_02: Those are really two of the best things you can do from the DIY approach.
1:04:28
SPEAKER_01: That's great.
1:04:28
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
1:04:29
SPEAKER_01: Amazing information.
1:04:30
SPEAKER_01: Now, just a quick little follow up on that.
1:04:32
Do I need to worry about like your example about being in the
1:04:36
wedding industry,
1:04:37
SPEAKER_01: maybe reaching out to a local another local company?
1:04:40
SPEAKER_01: Do I need to worry if that site is spammy?
1:04:42
Is there anything I can do to check that site before I request
1:04:46
or am I just good to
1:04:47
SPEAKER_01: go and just reach out because they are in the same industry?
1:04:50
SPEAKER_02: Oh, great question.
1:04:51
SPEAKER_02: So on the spammy side of things,
1:04:56
I think a really good way to approach it without getting into
1:04:59
any sophisticated tools,
1:05:01
SPEAKER_02: do the eyeball check.
1:05:02
SPEAKER_02: If you're considering reaching out to someone, check their site.
1:05:05
If it looks like it hasn't been updated since the 1990s,
1:05:10
maybe hold off on reaching out to them.
1:05:12
If you go to the site and there's some really questionable
1:05:15
content on there...
1:05:16
SPEAKER_02: yeah, maybe don't reach out to them, maybe skip over that site.
1:05:21
SPEAKER_02: There are more sophisticated tools that can go into that.
1:05:25
SPEAKER_02: My personal belief is that in Google,
1:05:27
SPEAKER_02: Google has said this directly,
1:05:29
SPEAKER_02: whether you choose to believe them or not,
1:05:30
SPEAKER_02: but Google has more or less said like,
1:05:32
SPEAKER_02: hey,
1:05:32
we're really good at uncovering sites that are spammy and we
1:05:36
just ignore them.
1:05:37
SPEAKER_02: Like, so if a really spammy site is linking back to you,
1:05:40
Unless it's someone who is negatively attacking your site,
1:05:45
you can just ignore it.
1:05:46
SPEAKER_02: Like we'll pick up on it.
1:05:47
SPEAKER_02: We'll just disregard them from the index.
1:05:51
If you do deal with a scenario where you think a competitor may
1:05:54
be getting a bunch
1:05:55
SPEAKER_02: of sites to link back to you,
1:05:56
you think that maybe someone paid someone on Fiverr to get a
1:05:59
thousand really low
1:06:00
SPEAKER_02: quality domains to link back to you.
1:06:03
SPEAKER_02: Reach out to me, pat at intergrowth.com.
1:06:05
SPEAKER_02: Happy to take a look.
1:06:07
There are cases where it can be really good to actively do
1:06:10
things to not have those
1:06:12
SPEAKER_02: sites associated with you.
1:06:14
SPEAKER_02: I come from the camp, though, where Google is pretty sophisticated.
1:06:18
SPEAKER_02: It's pretty good at just saying, hey, this is just a spammy site.
1:06:21
SPEAKER_02: We're just going to ignore it.
1:06:22
SPEAKER_02: It's not going to be a positive.
1:06:23
SPEAKER_02: It's not going to be a negative for your brand.
1:06:26
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
1:06:26
SPEAKER_01: All right.
1:06:27
SPEAKER_01: That's great.
1:06:27
SPEAKER_01: Very phenomenal.
1:06:29
SPEAKER_01: And listen,
1:06:29
SPEAKER_01: Pat,
1:06:30
SPEAKER_01: as I was scrolling through your LinkedIn profile yesterday,
1:06:34
SPEAKER_01: getting ready,
1:06:35
SPEAKER_01: prepping for our interview,
1:06:36
I came across your post about Google's search generative
1:06:41
experience and how it's
1:06:42
SPEAKER_01: going to revolutionize product software comparison queries.
1:06:46
SPEAKER_01: And that's quoting you on what you put out there.
1:06:50
SPEAKER_01: And I saw that you had a long,
1:06:51
SPEAKER_01: long form blog on your site,
1:06:53
SPEAKER_01: which you quickly answered as you talked about how you do your content.
1:06:58
SPEAKER_01: What is this?
1:06:59
And I feel like this is going to benefit e-commerce businesses
1:07:04
in the long run.
1:07:06
SPEAKER_01: What's happening here that we should know about?
1:07:08
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so search generative experience.
1:07:12
SPEAKER_02: It kills me that I can never say that correctly.
1:07:13
SPEAKER_01: That's a tough word.
1:07:16
SPEAKER_01: The branding on that's got to change.
1:07:18
SPEAKER_01: Or SGE, right?
1:07:20
SPEAKER_01: Oh, exactly.
1:07:22
SPEAKER_02: I was doing a recording with someone on my team.
1:07:25
SPEAKER_02: I think it was last week,
1:07:26
and we had to redo the recording like five times because I kept
1:07:29
on butchering the words.
1:07:30
SPEAKER_02: So now that I've said it one time, now it's SGE.
1:07:33
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:07:35
SPEAKER_02: SGE is fascinating.
1:07:36
SPEAKER_02: So really quick background to it.
1:07:39
SPEAKER_02: Google announced it at Google I.O.
1:07:42
SPEAKER_02: May of 2023.
1:07:44
SPEAKER_02: They have been doing beta testing with it for coming up on the past year.
1:07:49
SPEAKER_02: We'll round, we'll say the past year.
1:07:51
There is some speculation that they're going to officially
1:07:55
release it to the public
1:07:57
SPEAKER_02: at this year's Google I.O.
1:07:58
SPEAKER_02: in May of 2024.
1:07:59
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:08:02
SPEAKER_02: Regardless of the exact timeline,
1:08:04
SPEAKER_02: Google has very clearly said,
1:08:06
SPEAKER_02: hey,
1:08:06
SPEAKER_02: we plan on releasing this at some point in 2024.
1:08:08
SGE is ultimately Google using AI to come up with like these AI
1:08:14
summaries for a lot of queries.
1:08:16
SPEAKER_02: In many cases, they'll link out to other pages.
1:08:18
And maybe we can even share like my article in the show notes
1:08:23
for anyone who wants
1:08:23
SPEAKER_02: to read more about it.
1:08:24
SPEAKER_02: But the abridged version to it is this is going to,
1:08:29
SPEAKER_02: assuming it does get rolled out in a large capacity,
1:08:32
SPEAKER_02: This is going to have a monumental impact for businesses.
1:08:37
SPEAKER_02: The nice thing that comes into play for e-commerce business owners is...
1:08:43
SGE is going to drastically change the way that people are
1:08:46
going to find your
1:08:47
SPEAKER_02: business through search engines like Google.
1:08:50
That being said,
1:08:51
SGE isn't going to change the number of people who want to buy
1:08:54
a razor blade.
1:08:56
SPEAKER_02: I'm making up numbers.
1:08:58
If there's a million people who want to buy razor blades every
1:09:01
year in the U.S.,
1:09:03
There's not suddenly going to only be 500,000 people that want
1:09:06
to buy it just
1:09:07
SPEAKER_02: because SGE rolled out.
1:09:08
SPEAKER_02: You're still going to have those a million potential customers.
1:09:10
SPEAKER_02: You're just going to have a different funnel to get them to your website.
1:09:14
SPEAKER_02: So one of the biggest ways that we expect SGE to,
1:09:19
SPEAKER_02: I would say,
1:09:20
SPEAKER_02: indirectly impact a lot of e-commerce business owners is
1:09:25
I'm very confident in saying we're going to see a big rise in a
1:09:28
lot of queries that
1:09:29
SPEAKER_02: have historically gone to publisher sites.
1:09:32
SPEAKER_02: Think of Wirecutter,
1:09:35
SPEAKER_02: think of NerdWallet,
1:09:36
SPEAKER_02: think of Amazon's product pages or product category pages.
1:09:42
SPEAKER_02: We're going to see a lot of queries that these types of businesses have
1:09:45
SPEAKER_02: historically ranked really well for.
1:09:46
SPEAKER_02: Think,
1:09:47
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:09:47
SPEAKER_02: best razor blades of 2024,
1:09:50
SPEAKER_02: best pillow of 2024,
1:09:52
SPEAKER_02: brand A versus brand B,
1:09:55
SPEAKER_02: who has a better razor blade.
1:09:56
A lot of these queries that give a very high intent that
1:10:00
someone is looking to make
1:10:01
SPEAKER_02: a purchase,
1:10:01
but they're in many cases maybe looking for like that snap bit
1:10:04
of information
1:10:05
SPEAKER_02: before making a purchase.
1:10:07
SGE is going to allow searchers to skip over going to any of
1:10:10
these publisher sites.
1:10:12
SPEAKER_02: Get the answer directly in search results to see,
1:10:15
SPEAKER_02: OK,
1:10:16
Harry's razor blade is the best for this particular purpose as
1:10:19
like the two
1:10:20
SPEAKER_02: sentence abridged summary.
1:10:22
Dollar Shave Club is the best razor blade according to reviews
1:10:25
for this particular purchase.
1:10:26
SPEAKER_02: It's then going to free up a lot of potential customers to then say,
1:10:30
SPEAKER_02: hey,
1:10:30
SPEAKER_02: I'm going to skip over clicking on any of these publisher sites.
1:10:33
I'm just going to type in Harry's razor blades directly on
1:10:36
Google as my follow up search,
1:10:37
SPEAKER_02: and I'm going to click directly onto the Harry's razor blades website.
1:10:42
So my expectation is we're going to see a lot of businesses
1:10:44
that are going to see
1:10:46
SPEAKER_02: way less traffic coming to their site from search engines like Google.
1:10:50
SPEAKER_02: That being said, we shouldn't see any change in revenue.
1:10:53
What I expect is going to be the biggest impact for e-commerce
1:10:56
specifically is
1:10:57
you're going to start seeing less people getting to your site
1:11:00
doing product research.
1:11:01
But every individual who gets to your site is going to have,
1:11:05
A,
1:11:05
a way higher purchase intent.
1:11:07
B,
1:11:07
is going to be way more interested in learning the intricate
1:11:10
details about your product.
1:11:12
SPEAKER_02: So you may lose 20% of readers coming to your site,
1:11:15
but you may get 20% more revenue from each of the 80% of
1:11:20
readers that do actually
1:11:21
SPEAKER_02: remain coming to your site.
1:11:24
The thing I think that's going to be toughest to predict about
1:11:27
SGE that I'm really
1:11:28
SPEAKER_02: excited about is if we have this scenario where,
1:11:33
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:11:33
let's stick with the best razor blades example that I've been
1:11:36
beating to death
1:11:36
SPEAKER_02: throughout this whole podcast is,
1:11:39
SPEAKER_02: If we have this best razor blades example, we have making up a number.
1:11:44
We have 10,000 people going to Google every month searching for
1:11:46
best razor blades.
1:11:48
SPEAKER_02: Right now,
1:11:49
chances are most of those people are clicking on one of these
1:11:51
publisher sites that
1:11:52
then gets a little bit of a referral commission for referring
1:11:54
people to the top
1:11:56
SPEAKER_02: five brands that they recommend.
1:11:58
SPEAKER_02: If the razor blade sells for $10,
1:12:00
SPEAKER_02: maybe they get a dollar out of it,
1:12:01
SPEAKER_02: or maybe they get 50 cents for each sale.
1:12:04
SPEAKER_02: The market for these publisher sites writing about this content,
1:12:07
SPEAKER_02: I feel very confident saying is going to shrink pretty drastically,
1:12:11
given that a lot of people are not going to need to click onto
1:12:14
these sites to read
1:12:15
SPEAKER_02: these robust reviews.
1:12:16
They're going to get the quick answer from SGE saying,
1:12:20
hey,
1:12:20
here's some things to consider.
1:12:21
Here's some of the brands we recommend based on the data we
1:12:24
kind of just skimmed
1:12:25
SPEAKER_02: from these other publisher sites.
1:12:27
SPEAKER_02: And you're going to kind of cut out the middleman in that scenario.
1:12:31
SPEAKER_02: Over time,
1:12:31
SPEAKER_02: we're going to start seeing,
1:12:33
SPEAKER_02: I believe,
1:12:34
a pretty big drop off in the number of these publisher sites
1:12:36
that are writing these queries.
1:12:38
SPEAKER_02: So I would just say I'm really fascinated to see what happens here.
1:12:43
SPEAKER_02: But I think we're going to see this really weird trend where...
1:12:46
It's almost like we're going to get to like 2026 and no one is
1:12:49
going to be writing
1:12:50
SPEAKER_02: about the best razor blades of 2026.
1:12:53
SPEAKER_02: And then I'll be curious to see,
1:12:54
SPEAKER_02: like,
1:12:55
SPEAKER_02: what does SGE actually pull from in terms of their data set?
1:12:58
SPEAKER_02: Is it pulling Amazon reviews?
1:13:00
SPEAKER_02: Is it reading off of other product pages?
1:13:03
SPEAKER_02: So I think we're going to see a lot of volatility in the market.
1:13:05
SPEAKER_02: E-commerce businesses are in a really good place, though, given that
1:13:09
I feel pretty confident saying you're just going to likely have
1:13:12
to pay out a little
1:13:13
bit less commission to those publisher sites that maybe you're
1:13:16
giving affiliate
1:13:17
SPEAKER_02: commission to today.
1:13:17
SPEAKER_02: But keep on focusing on SEO.
1:13:20
SPEAKER_02: The other thing that's going to come into play with SGE,
1:13:23
SPEAKER_02: SGE oftentimes will recommend a couple brands in particular.
1:13:27
SPEAKER_02: I feel very confident saying that SGE is going to largely build those
1:13:31
recommendations based on the same things that Google looks at
1:13:34
when building out
1:13:35
SPEAKER_02: their ranking algorithms.
1:13:37
SPEAKER_02: What brands are most reputable?
1:13:38
SPEAKER_02: What brands are most relevant to this particular query?
1:13:42
And what brands are most straightforward for us to understand
1:13:45
the web contents of?
1:13:46
SPEAKER_02: So I actually am saying double down on SEO right now.
1:13:50
SPEAKER_02: We're still in a space where you can get a ton of ROI from it right now.
1:13:54
And I feel very confident saying that if Google is only picking
1:13:57
two or maybe three
1:13:58
products or two or three brands that they're going to recommend
1:14:02
as the featured
1:14:02
SPEAKER_02: brands in their SGE results,
1:14:05
you really want to push to be that number one brand for that
1:14:08
positioning that
1:14:09
SPEAKER_02: you're going after.
1:14:10
SPEAKER_02: So invest the resources today.
1:14:12
SPEAKER_02: Solidify that position for yourself.
1:14:14
And you may have a really powerful moat that you're able to
1:14:17
hold on to for the next
1:14:18
SPEAKER_02: couple of years with significantly less investment than it might cost,
1:14:23
SPEAKER_02: call it five years in the past.
1:14:25
SPEAKER_01: I feel like this is huge.
1:14:27
SPEAKER_01: This is, I mean, this is a game changer.
1:14:30
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, those sites are, they're funny.
1:14:32
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we all, we see them all the time, right?
1:14:34
SPEAKER_01: You know,
1:14:34
SPEAKER_01: the top 10 this and the top 10 that,
1:14:36
SPEAKER_01: and they're all,
1:14:37
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:14:37
SPEAKER_01: generally all affiliate links.
1:14:38
SPEAKER_01: And you start to not trust those, by the way, too.
1:14:40
SPEAKER_01: At some point you're like, well, this person's getting paid.
1:14:43
SPEAKER_01: You know, they're making a cut.
1:14:44
SPEAKER_01: Do they really believe that this is one of the best ones?
1:14:48
SPEAKER_01: So maybe that's,
1:14:49
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:14:50
SPEAKER_01: in Google's thinking as well is that,
1:14:52
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:14:53
those top 10 lists and things like that are not really
1:14:56
delivering the true value
1:14:59
SPEAKER_01: out there.
1:15:00
SPEAKER_01: The person selling the product,
1:15:02
SPEAKER_01: they're delivering the true value,
1:15:03
SPEAKER_01: which has always been the case.
1:15:05
And,
1:15:05
you know,
1:15:05
you're,
1:15:06
you know,
1:15:07
what you mentioned about the middleman,
1:15:08
right?
1:15:09
SPEAKER_01: You're cutting out the middleman in all of this.
1:15:12
SPEAKER_01: or the middle person and all of this.
1:15:14
SPEAKER_01: So I think this is a game changer.
1:15:16
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely huge, huge news that will slowly start to roll out.
1:15:21
SPEAKER_01: I'm fascinated to see what's going to happen with it.
1:15:23
SPEAKER_01: We'll put a link to the article.
1:15:26
SPEAKER_01: I found the article fascinating.
1:15:28
SPEAKER_01: I just think all of it is, you know, it's almost like
1:15:31
SPEAKER_01: They're giving love back to the e-commerce world.
1:15:33
They're like,
1:15:35
hey,
1:15:36
listen,
1:15:36
we've paid attention to publishers for a long time.
1:15:39
SPEAKER_01: We haven't forgotten about you.
1:15:40
SPEAKER_01: We're back.
1:15:41
SPEAKER_01: We're going to give you some love now.
1:15:42
SPEAKER_01: We're going to help you sell, ultimately get you faster, right?
1:15:46
SPEAKER_01: You don't have to go two clicks in to get to your site.
1:15:49
SPEAKER_01: I hope so.
1:15:50
SPEAKER_02: I agree with you.
1:15:51
SPEAKER_02: I think this is going to be...
1:15:53
SPEAKER_02: A monumental shift in the way that search works,
1:15:56
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:15:56
assuming that Google rolls it out in a large capacity and
1:15:59
doesn't scrap it 12
1:16:00
SPEAKER_02: months in.
1:16:00
SPEAKER_02: But we've let the genie out of the bottle.
1:16:03
SPEAKER_02: AI is here.
1:16:05
SPEAKER_02: It's I would argue it's not great at doing a lot of things,
1:16:08
but there are certain things that AI is way better than human
1:16:11
beings at doing.
1:16:13
SPEAKER_02: I see this as the type of change that Google probably does.
1:16:15
SPEAKER_02: didn't want to roll out.
1:16:16
They'd probably prefer if we could keep AI back in the bottle,
1:16:19
not have released that.
1:16:21
SPEAKER_02: I think they're pretty happy with the way their business model works.
1:16:25
SPEAKER_02: I don't see this going away.
1:16:26
And I think if you're in e-commerce,
1:16:29
start looking into it now,
1:16:31
start testing out SGE.
1:16:32
SPEAKER_02: You can actually,
1:16:33
SPEAKER_02: you can enable it by going like log into your Google account,
1:16:36
SPEAKER_02: go over to search labs and you can actually set up SGE.
1:16:40
It's not going to pop up every single time for you,
1:16:43
but it is,
1:16:44
especially if you're US based.
1:16:46
I'm unfortunately in Stockholm,
1:16:48
Sweden right now,
1:16:49
and I don't get near,
1:16:50
I don't get
1:16:51
SPEAKER_02: SGE results while I'm over here.
1:16:53
So whenever I'm back in the US,
1:16:54
I search like crazy so I can get more exposure to it.
1:16:59
But assuming you're US-based or you're in one of the countries
1:17:01
where SGE is
1:17:02
SPEAKER_02: currently available,
1:17:04
do everything you can to enable it so you can start getting
1:17:06
more data points about
1:17:08
SPEAKER_02: how is Google rendering these SGE results?
1:17:11
SPEAKER_02: What types of pages are popping up?
1:17:13
SPEAKER_02: What types of queries are they popping up for?
1:17:17
And I would argue that if you are in e-commerce and if you
1:17:20
start thinking about
1:17:20
SPEAKER_02: this today,
1:17:21
SPEAKER_02: you are going to be leaps and bounds ahead of most of your competitors.
1:17:26
SPEAKER_02: So get ahead while you can start learning about it today.
1:17:29
SPEAKER_02: I think this is going to be huge.
1:17:32
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
1:17:32
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
1:17:33
SPEAKER_01: That's phenomenal.
1:17:34
I appreciate and thank you for providing the tip on how to
1:17:38
actually get access to
1:17:39
SPEAKER_01: it in its early days.
1:17:42
SPEAKER_01: All right.
1:17:43
SPEAKER_01: So we've got one last question for you.
1:17:44
SPEAKER_01: This is our wrap up question.
1:17:46
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
1:17:46
SPEAKER_01: A little fun here.
1:17:48
And I think the last time you were on the podcast,
1:17:51
AI really wasn't even a thing yet.
1:17:53
SPEAKER_01: It was, you know, generative AI was just, you know, starting to happen.
1:17:57
SPEAKER_01: We weren't really talking about it as much as we are today.
1:18:00
SPEAKER_01: And now it's a massive force, right?
1:18:02
SPEAKER_01: In our daily lives.
1:18:03
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
1:18:04
SPEAKER_01: And we talked a lot about it and...
1:18:06
the podcast today and tips and tricks on how to utilize it
1:18:09
properly in your,
1:18:11
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:18:11
SPEAKER_01: search engine optimization strategies.
1:18:14
SPEAKER_01: So with that said,
1:18:15
SPEAKER_01: you,
1:18:16
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:18:16
SPEAKER_01: you,
1:18:16
SPEAKER_01: I know you go on as I do,
1:18:18
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:18:18
SPEAKER_01: you check it out all the time.
1:18:20
SPEAKER_01: What, what is something that you have done on AI that has blown you away?
1:18:26
SPEAKER_01: And you were just,
1:18:26
SPEAKER_01: you had it,
1:18:27
SPEAKER_01: you walked away in that moment of like,
1:18:29
SPEAKER_01: wow,
1:18:29
SPEAKER_01: I cannot believe that does this.
1:18:31
SPEAKER_02: Ooh.
1:18:32
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:18:33
SPEAKER_02: Well, actually, this this is this is a funny one that I can reference.
1:18:37
So,
1:18:38
you know,
1:18:38
that LinkedIn post that you gave me a shout out for 90 percent.
1:18:45
SPEAKER_01: I love it.
1:18:46
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for it.
1:18:47
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I didn't know.
1:18:48
SPEAKER_01: I had no idea.
1:18:49
SPEAKER_01: It was so it was well written.
1:18:51
SPEAKER_01: It got my attention.
1:18:52
SPEAKER_01: I read it.
1:18:53
SPEAKER_01: You know, topic was interesting.
1:18:54
SPEAKER_02: So quick back context behind it.
1:18:57
So I was talking talking with like a friend in the industry,
1:19:01
I think a couple of days ago.
1:19:04
She had brought up the point of like,
1:19:05
hey,
1:19:05
you know,
1:19:06
test out AI for LinkedIn posts.
1:19:08
Like it's really good about taking concepts and figuring out
1:19:12
how to like put it in
1:19:13
SPEAKER_02: a manner that is going to resonate with a LinkedIn audience.
1:19:16
SPEAKER_02: So I was like, Melissa, I don't know.
1:19:17
SPEAKER_02: I'm a little skeptical of it, but sure, I'll give it a shot.
1:19:19
SPEAKER_02: So I sat down for, you know, I think it was an hour or two yesterday.
1:19:23
SPEAKER_02: Actually, I guess it was put together a couple ideas.
1:19:25
SPEAKER_02: And I told her I was like, I'm going to sneak these in here.
1:19:27
SPEAKER_02: Please call me out if you if you could tell their AI generated.
1:19:30
SPEAKER_02: So.
1:19:32
SPEAKER_02: I will say, you know, first draft was first draft was good.
1:19:37
SPEAKER_02: It was it was very cheesy.
1:19:39
SPEAKER_02: It wasn't my brand voice.
1:19:41
SPEAKER_02: So I took the overarching concept.
1:19:43
I took the flow of the post and I said,
1:19:45
let me let me rewrite some of the words.
1:19:47
SPEAKER_02: Let me add the human touch, add the human edits to it.
1:19:51
But yeah,
1:19:51
I joked with her and I was like,
1:19:52
all right,
1:19:52
I have like four of these.
1:19:53
SPEAKER_02: I'm going to test them out in the wild and see how they do.
1:19:56
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, so that we'll call it maybe 80 percent AI generated there.
1:20:03
SPEAKER_01: Nice, nice.
1:20:04
SPEAKER_01: I love it.
1:20:06
SPEAKER_01: I have wow moments every day.
1:20:09
SPEAKER_01: The example of the alt text, that was a wow moment for me.
1:20:14
SPEAKER_01: You would assume it can do these things,
1:20:15
SPEAKER_01: but how it does it and what it gives back to you,
1:20:21
SPEAKER_01: a moment of like,
1:20:22
SPEAKER_01: oh my gosh,
1:20:23
SPEAKER_01: how could I not live without you?
1:20:26
SPEAKER_01: This is absolutely amazing.
1:20:28
SPEAKER_01: But use it for good.
1:20:29
SPEAKER_01: Be involved in the process, for sure.
1:20:32
And I think what Pat is saying,
1:20:34
that he was very involved in the process of that.
1:20:37
SPEAKER_01: But it was a very good post.
1:20:41
SPEAKER_02: Building upon that, just for some additional context to your point,
1:20:45
SPEAKER_02: AI is phenomenal if it has a good training ground to start out with.
1:20:49
So in this particular LinkedIn post,
1:20:51
I took a full-length blog article I had written.
1:20:53
I took a couple paragraphs from it,
1:20:55
and I said,
1:20:55
hey,
1:20:56
this is 500 words of copyright here.
1:20:58
SPEAKER_02: Write me a LinkedIn post that's a fraction of this.
1:21:01
And from there,
1:21:02
it was able to say,
1:21:02
OK,
1:21:03
we can take the core insights that are in here.
1:21:05
SPEAKER_02: We can just compress it down into more LinkedIn-friendly words.
1:21:09
SPEAKER_02: If you were to go to ChatGPT today and say,
1:21:13
SPEAKER_02: hey,
1:21:13
put together a response for how e-commerce is going to be
1:21:16
impacted by SGE,
1:21:19
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you're probably not going to get that same quality of data.
1:21:22
SPEAKER_02: But if you can take an insight that you've already shared,
1:21:25
SPEAKER_02: it's phenomenal at saying,
1:21:26
SPEAKER_02: hey,
1:21:26
SPEAKER_02: I can rewrite this into another way.
1:21:28
SPEAKER_02: I can put it in a tone that's going to work for this particular audience.
1:21:34
SPEAKER_01: Brilliant.
1:21:34
SPEAKER_01: Brilliant.
1:21:35
SPEAKER_01: Love it.
1:21:35
SPEAKER_01: Well, Pat, thank you.
1:21:37
SPEAKER_01: I feel like this was a masterclass on search engine optimization.
1:21:40
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't just a podcast.
1:21:42
SPEAKER_01: This has been absolutely amazing.
1:21:44
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm a student just as much as I am an advisor in this world.
1:21:49
SPEAKER_01: I learned from you a lot and I know that our audience is going to,
1:21:52
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:21:53
take this information and hopefully run with it and help build
1:21:56
and then reach out
1:21:57
SPEAKER_01: to you.
1:21:57
SPEAKER_01: And I want to just thank you,
1:21:58
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:21:59
SPEAKER_01: personally for coming on our season two,
1:22:02
SPEAKER_01: episode one of the e-commerce revolution podcast.
1:22:05
SPEAKER_01: Your insights are fantastic.
1:22:07
SPEAKER_01: Maybe just take a moment.
1:22:08
SPEAKER_01: You know, you have a couple of businesses that you run on a daily basis.
1:22:13
Tell the audience about those and how they can get in touch
1:22:16
with you and where they
1:22:18
SPEAKER_01: can find you on social media.
1:22:19
SPEAKER_01: And it will be you answering, I know, not AI.
1:22:23
Yeah,
1:22:23
as long as it's within the next couple of months,
1:22:25
we'll say it'll be me.
1:22:26
We'll see if we can build a chatbot that answers on my behalf
1:22:29
beyond that.
1:22:29
SPEAKER_02: No, Ramin, thank you for having me on.
1:22:31
SPEAKER_02: It's so fun getting to talk to you.
1:22:32
SPEAKER_02: Great series of questions.
1:22:34
SPEAKER_02: I had a blast.
1:22:37
SPEAKER_02: For listeners, though, an apologies for me sitting forward.
1:22:39
SPEAKER_02: The sun is coming right into my eyes here,
1:22:41
SPEAKER_02: so I'm trying to find the right angle before we wrap up.
1:22:44
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, a couple of ways to get in touch with me.
1:22:46
SPEAKER_02: Feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn.
1:22:49
SPEAKER_02: My name is Pat Ahern.
1:22:51
SPEAKER_02: Let's see.
1:22:52
SPEAKER_02: Feel free to email me directly, pat at introgrowth.com.
1:22:55
SPEAKER_02: Happy to answer any questions, concerns.
1:22:57
SPEAKER_02: Hop on an SEO strategy call with you.
1:23:00
Either help point you in the right direction with DIY resources
1:23:03
or talk to you
1:23:03
SPEAKER_02: about working with our business.
1:23:06
For me,
1:23:07
really one business that has kind of what I'd call two sub components.
1:23:11
SPEAKER_02: Intergrowth is the main business I started.
1:23:14
SPEAKER_02: We do SEO centric content marketing.
1:23:17
Really fancy way of saying we write long form blog articles for
1:23:20
your site.
1:23:21
We get high quality sites to link back to you and we do SEO
1:23:24
consulting to help you
1:23:25
SPEAKER_02: every step of the way as you grow.
1:23:27
SPEAKER_02: One of the things we've learned over time,
1:23:29
SPEAKER_02: we've also worked with a lot of e-commerce businesses over the years.
1:23:33
And we've seen a lot of those businesses really want to get
1:23:35
started with SEO.
1:23:36
SPEAKER_02: They really want some guidance,
1:23:37
but they're just they're not ready to invest a couple thousand
1:23:40
dollars a month into SEO.
1:23:41
SPEAKER_02: So we've launched a new brand called Scalecart,
1:23:44
SPEAKER_02: which is entirely focused on setting up like hourly SEO services.
1:23:49
SPEAKER_02: So you can sign up for a half a day of SEO expertise.
1:23:52
SPEAKER_02: You can sign up for a full day as a one off.
1:23:54
SPEAKER_02: You can sign up for a day a month or a couple of days a month.
1:23:57
The idea is just make an SEO a little bit more easily
1:23:59
attainable for businesses.
1:24:01
SPEAKER_02: And really with that,
1:24:02
you get to talk to one of the strategists on our team who are
1:24:05
going to help point
1:24:05
SPEAKER_02: you in the right direction with strategy,
1:24:07
give you guidance on some of the things that you can do
1:24:09
in-house to keep costs lower,
1:24:11
and tell you what are the areas that really our team should be
1:24:14
handling for you so
1:24:15
SPEAKER_02: that within that limited scope of hours,
1:24:17
you can make some really serious progress as you start scaling
1:24:20
your business.
1:24:21
SPEAKER_01: Beautiful.
1:24:22
SPEAKER_01: Love it.
1:24:22
SPEAKER_01: I love scale card.
1:24:24
SPEAKER_01: I think it's a great idea.
1:24:26
SPEAKER_01: I think, as you said, it makes SEO attainable, right?
1:24:30
SPEAKER_01: Especially for emerging e-commerce businesses out there.
1:24:34
SPEAKER_01: And then at some point,
1:24:35
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:24:35
SPEAKER_01: their businesses get so big that they need,
1:24:38
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:24:38
SPEAKER_01: that regular ongoing help,
1:24:40
SPEAKER_01: which is so,
1:24:41
SPEAKER_01: so important.
1:24:42
SPEAKER_01: So thank you again, Pat, for coming on the podcast today.
1:24:45
SPEAKER_01: And that's all I've got.
1:24:46
SPEAKER_01: Thanks very much, everybody.
1:24:47
SPEAKER_01: See ya.
1:24:51
All right,
1:24:51
that brings us to the end of another episode of the e-commerce
1:24:54
revolution podcast.
1:24:56
SPEAKER_01: Don't forget to check out past episodes,
1:24:58
which are all available on demand on YouTube and wherever you
1:25:02
listen to your podcast.
1:25:04
SPEAKER_01: Ready to join the revolution?
1:25:06
SPEAKER_01: Become an exclusive part of our growing community of emerging e-commerce
1:25:09
SPEAKER_01: entrepreneurs at ecomrevolution.co.
1:25:13
SPEAKER_01: Until next time, see ya.