Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Si Hart about his choice of The Ark in Space (4/4)

Transcript

Talks to Si Hart about his choice of The Ark in Space (4/4) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:33
  Hamster with a blunt. Pen Knife for doing quicker.
• 0:37
  The end result is one of Rusty Davis's favourites.
• 0:41
  In fact, the second episode would go on to win 13.6 million
• 0:44
  viewers in February 1975, a record audience for the
• 0:48
  programme. I can see why you'd enjoy it.
• 0:51
  The sets by Roger Murray Leach were out of this world,
• 0:54
  literally. Holmes's script was almost
• 0:57
  hypnotic in its rhythms. As expected, the costumes for
• 1:01
  the wear and were terrifically convincing as well.
• 1:04
  In fact, the whole thing was beautifully done.
• 1:07
  But I felt invisible. I blame Rodney for that.
• 1:12
  He got such a kick out of working with Tom that the rest
• 1:15
  of us struggled for any recognition whatsoever.
• 1:18
  I don't think anybody else was in the frame.
• 1:20
  Subsequently, I found myself in a really uncomfortable costume
• 1:23
  on a set where there were so many possibilities to run and
• 1:26
  crawl and bend and really express myself physically.
• 1:30
  If Philip had been impressed by my bondage scene, he would
• 1:34
  really like what I could do in this vast spaceship.
• 1:37
  As a result of feeling Hanford by the costume and overlooked by
• 1:40
  the director, I just found myself standing around a lot.
• 1:43
  I wasn't happy with myself in that one at all.
• 1:45
  So much potential untapped. Welcome back to a hamster with a
• 1:51
  blood pen knife, The Doctor Who commentary podcast.
• 1:55
  Sigh. That is an excerpt from
• 1:57
  Elizabeth Slayden's autobiography.
• 2:00
  And the interesting thing about that is I can't tell at all that
• 2:06
  she is uncomfortable in this story.
• 2:09
  No, it doesn't show on screen, does it?
• 2:11
  But it's absolutely true. We said this in in the Part 3
• 2:15
  commentary, but she doesn't have anything to do particularly in
• 2:18
  that episode. And she does stand around
• 2:21
  looking pretty a lot of the time.
• 2:24
  And it's a bit of a problem. We we've got a question about
• 2:27
  this from from my old friend Andrew Kerno, who says given
• 2:33
  that Tom was quite Harry's been created in case the new Doctor
• 2:37
  was old and hence less able to handle the rough stuff.
• 2:39
  But given that Tom is quite capable of this, would this
• 2:42
  story have been even better without Harry with just a Tom
• 2:47
  Liz opening episode? I mean, she'd have, she
• 2:53
  wouldn't. No, because he'd have no one to
• 2:56
  talk to, would he? She's got to go into the
• 2:58
  cryogenic thing. Yeah, we need that bit of
• 3:00
  jeopardy, don't we? Or I mean, it could have been
• 3:03
  Harry that went in there rather than Sep, but because we have so
• 3:09
  much Doctor Sarah to come, it's so nice that we get some time
• 3:15
  with just the Doctor and Harry. Yeah, I don't think I would
• 3:18
  trade that. Even though Sarah doesn't get a
• 3:20
  lot to do in this one, she does get a lot to do in the rest of
• 3:24
  the season. So I think it's a bit of an
• 3:27
  anomaly that she's sidelined. It doesn't happen to Sarah very
• 3:31
  often that she's sidelined in Doctor Who.
• 3:33
  So it is a bit of a change from season 11, which we've also
• 3:37
  discussed where she was really driving the stories.
• 3:41
  And it might be a fault that this story is written in a hurry
• 3:47
  that that's, that this is sort of why.
• 3:49
  And you've got 2, you've got a a main cast of three who all need
• 3:54
  things to do. And Harry and the early 4th
• 3:59
  Doctor work so well together that actually it's lovely to see
• 4:04
  them. So yeah, it's it's a bit of a
• 4:07
  problem. Maybe at this point, Holmes
• 4:09
  doesn't quite know what he wants to do with Sarah.
• 4:11
  Come pyramids and Mars. He's given her one zinger after
• 4:15
  another. He's got a handle on, yeah, he's
• 4:18
  got a handle on their relationship.
• 4:20
  And two actors who can really make those scenes Zing.
• 4:25
  They've got such chemistry when they get to work together.
• 4:29
  What was that? You thought I was dead, didn't
• 4:30
  you? Yeah.
• 4:31
  You're always, you're always thinking that and all those
• 4:36
  things. I love the fact that Sarah
• 4:38
  always thinks he's dead. Well, any more questions before
• 4:42
  we go into 4? Hang on, how lucky were we to
• 4:52
  have Roger Murray? Leach asks Andy Parkinson.
• 4:56
  Andy, we were very lucky indeed. Yeah, it was a chance move to
• 5:03
  bring him onto the show that didn't.
• 5:06
  He worked in light entertainment essentially before this, so he
• 5:10
  was doing sort of the big, big productions and sort of the
• 5:14
  Shirley Bassey show and things like that I believe.
• 5:17
  So there is no guarantee that he was going to to get Doctor Who
• 5:23
  and do this marvellous stuff. Imagine only two critical but
• 5:28
  like think about those spaceship sets in invasion of the
• 5:32
  dinosaurs which are OK. Unless they're doing a similar
• 5:36
  thing with with sort of a cryogenic chamber full of people
• 5:40
  sleeping. Not as impressive though, is it?
• 5:43
  No, not at all. You had.
• 5:43
  Somebody that was competent rather than exceptional.
• 5:47
  I think the whole sort of tone of this piece would be
• 5:50
  different. Oh, absolutely.
• 5:54
  And one final one, there's a very good question.
• 5:57
  This is from Cheney, Vision asks.
• 5:59
  Why did no one else have the sense to do link stories like
• 6:02
  this so that sets could be reuse?
• 6:05
  Reused and no trial doesn't count, he says.
• 6:09
  It is baffling, isn't it? Because.
• 6:11
  It is because it works really well and you could just redress
• 6:15
  the set slightly to make it a different spaceship or even.
• 6:19
  Something like DS9 did this, didn't they?
• 6:21
  Do you remember when they got to NPOC nor?
• 6:23
  Yeah. But they just brought the lights
• 6:25
  down and got rid of all the extras.
• 6:27
  Yeah, and put a bit of Kardashian stuff.
• 6:29
  Yeah, yeah. But just around the place.
• 6:31
  But it's, it's economic. It's it's a good way of sort of
• 6:35
  spreading the budget. Yeah.
• 6:37
  Yeah. I've no, I can't think of a good
• 6:39
  reason why not. And given it works so well here,
• 6:43
  Doctor Who producers have short memories, I think.
• 6:47
  Yes, they really do. They forget what works.
• 6:52
  Yeah, I I know there's another comment about this where someone
• 6:55
  says do you think NERVA is cheapened by Big Finish coming
• 7:01
  back to it later on as well? I don't think I should talk
• 7:06
  about destination NERVA. No, I'm not going to talk about
• 7:11
  it either because. My savage roasting of that story
• 7:16
  led to some pretty dramatic consequences, so.
• 7:19
  Oh yes, I remember I. Remain on lips on my opinion on
• 7:23
  Destination Nerva. Make of that what you will.
• 7:28
  I It's a shorthand for a setting, and I can see why they
• 7:34
  did it, but I don't think it was a good move because they're so
• 7:38
  ingrained in these two stories. I don't think you needed to see
• 7:41
  it again. I'll just say we're not seeing
• 7:44
  NERVA Beacon at its best. No.
• 7:49
  Without mentioning who might be responsible for that.
• 7:53
  No, I have no clue what you're talking about.
• 7:57
  Well, should we go into NERVA Beacon at its height?
• 8:01
  Yes, I think we should in episode 4, which will we will
• 8:06
  start in 5432 one. Here we go.
• 8:15
  I wonder where the hell you were going without.
• 8:17
  I was like, we just need a countdown, come on.
• 8:23
  So I love doing this for you. Terry Bollier of the Zygons
• 8:28
  asked what the bloody hell did Harry Sullivan?
• 8:31
  How the bloody hell did Harry Sullivan manage to shut his
• 8:34
  hooter in the sliding doors in Portsmouth Barracks?
• 8:37
  I don't know. You should have asked that in
• 8:39
  Part 1. I want to see it.
• 8:44
  Well, no, my ass got stuck in an underground door once, so I'll
• 8:47
  tell you about that. No.
• 8:49
  Oh. So.
• 8:50
  Embarrassing and like three people have pulled me in because
• 8:53
  the door wouldn't. Shut.
• 8:54
  My fat ass was sticking out on the platform, so if it can
• 9:02
  happen to my ass, it can happen to Harry's nose.
• 9:06
  Joe Short says. I think that hooter is naval
• 9:09
  slang for something else. Aubergine emoticon.
• 9:13
  Winky emoticon. She.
• 9:15
  Tries to make me say rude things, doesn't she?
• 9:17
  I'm going to resist the temptation.
• 9:18
  And then at the end, she says, and don't encourage Joe.
• 9:21
  Oh. I'd love to see Harry's hooter,
• 9:29
  actually. OK, so now Noah Wiran is going
• 9:37
  to tell us the sort of the big plan, isn't it?
• 9:39
  You know, we're going to take over.
• 9:40
  We've got. Exposition Wiran here that's.
• 9:43
  Right Exposition. Wiran.
• 9:46
  And I'm sure have big finished on a story with Wiran where they
• 9:51
  explore the Wiran wars and and things like that.
• 9:54
  Was that a Paul McGowan? That question, you know the
• 9:57
  answer to that question, it's called Wiran Dawn.
• 10:01
  Oh yes, I've heard that one. It's actually not terrible.
• 10:05
  No, it was all right, wasn't it? It's got Daniel Anthony in it.
• 10:10
  Yes. As a hardened space fuck, not
• 10:14
  lovely Clyde Langer, but it does feel like that is the sort of
• 10:18
  thing that is sort of ripe for some stories if you're going to
• 10:22
  do spin off stories. Yeah, that again.
• 10:25
  It's Bob Holmes sketching in the history in a few, in a few
• 10:30
  lines. He'd go they they used cattle As
• 10:34
  for originally, and then would go into space, come to a planet,
• 10:39
  use a cattle, eat them, eat them inside out and keep going and
• 10:45
  keep the race going. Is there an insect's analogy
• 10:51
  here? Is there an insect that does
• 10:54
  this that? Yeah, yeah, They talk about that
• 10:56
  in in episode 2, The Human Ease. So as the doc says, it's a type
• 11:02
  of wasp that that does that. I hate what it's parasitic.
• 11:08
  So what they and they plant their eggs inside cattle and.
• 11:11
  Or yeah, or some kind of animal and eat the flesh and.
• 11:16
  I get lots of Wasps in my garden, you know.
• 11:19
  Yeah. My God.
• 11:22
  Well, that was good. I do like, even though it is,
• 11:24
  you know, the tentacles coming out of paper sort of tearing
• 11:27
  through paper, but it, it does add a bit of urgency that
• 11:30
  they're starting to sort of tear out.
• 11:34
  Yes, James H, Victoria Geek asks us.
• 11:37
  Are the Wiran the only aliens that actually look good in close
• 11:40
  up Aie falling from the cupboard but look dodgy in long shot
• 11:45
  going across the outside of the Ark?
• 11:47
  No, I can think of another one. OK, people.
• 11:51
  Oh yeah. Pretty good when you're just on
• 11:55
  the face and then when you look at him in Long Shot, it's Puss
• 11:58
  in Boots. We're getting through these now.
• 12:03
  We are. I'm sure there's another
• 12:07
  question about the wirren from Johnny Morris.
• 12:12
  Look, all the dangers hit him. It's tense.
• 12:15
  The wirren are breaking out and the doctor goes.
• 12:17
  Anyone for a Jelly baby? Did you see that where he says
• 12:24
  Vara's got no intention of leaving, so neither do we.
• 12:28
  So he's setting his stall that we're here to help.
• 12:32
  Vamoose or stick around to get killed.
• 12:37
  Let them be turned into surrogate humans.
• 12:40
  Johnny Morris says would it have been even better if the lights
• 12:43
  had failed just before we saw the Wiram props shambling about?
• 12:47
  I. Mean I can think of many Doctor
• 12:50
  Who monsters where they should shoot them.
• 12:53
  Just at 9:59, as the BBC lights are about to go off, you need to
• 13:02
  clear the. Studio quick Keep rolling for 5
• 13:04
  minutes, yeah. That'll just do.
• 13:05
  That'll do. Oh I love.
• 13:11
  This where Sarah says she's trying to say to him I can take,
• 13:16
  I can take the bloody. Cable.
• 13:18
  Food. I'm about this wide.
• 13:20
  But no one's. Listening to her, are they?
• 13:22
  And again, she's standing in the background looking sulky.
• 13:26
  What? Were you trying to say Sarah?
• 13:29
  Then he gives her a massive smile.
• 13:32
  Yeah, I. Feel like the endorsement of Tom
• 13:34
  Baker's doctor? It's just the best thing in the
• 13:36
  world. Yeah, getting a grin off Tom is
• 13:39
  a quite special. I'm sure you and I both.
• 13:42
  Had a grin from Tom. You know.
• 13:44
  Yeah, I I did. And it was just OK.
• 13:49
  There are only two people from Doctor Who that I've had a
• 13:53
  moment of I can't go and meet them.
• 13:55
  And Tom was one of them. Because just seeing him sat at
• 14:00
  the end of the room and thinking, I'm going to talk to
• 14:03
  my childhood hero was Oh my God, can I, can I do this?
• 14:08
  And of course I could. But it was just that moment of
• 14:11
  what if he, what if he, what if he just disappoints?
• 14:15
  I'd be distraught. And he'd of course he didn't.
• 14:17
  He was magnificent the day I met him.
• 14:20
  I allegedly I was, I was in a long queue and it was a sit down
• 14:23
  picture. I don't know about 30 I was at
• 14:26
  the time and he just said one. Thing to me and it was enough he
• 14:30
  went. Why?
• 14:32
  What a handsome boy. Yeah, beside me.
• 14:37
  Me and my friend Si met him at the Stamp Centre on the Strand,
• 14:40
  who used to do lots of Doctor Who things and it was a weekday
• 14:44
  morning so it wasn't odd time for a signing.
• 14:47
  So there weren't many people there and they've got Sylvester
• 14:49
  McCoy and Louise Jameson as well as as Tom.
• 14:54
  So it was and there was no one there.
• 14:57
  And so we walked in and we had about 5 minutes with Tom where
• 15:00
  he was just chatting and he was leafing through the magazine, my
• 15:02
  friend Sidewalk and he was just telling us stories.
• 15:06
  And that's where he said, oh, as he said, oh, Graham had a thing
• 15:10
  about painting women's. Silver said, I think it was some
• 15:13
  kind of fetish he had, but didn't want to vent them look
• 15:17
  gorgeous and things like that. That he, he and so and he did
• 15:23
  the gag where his phone went off in the middle of the
• 15:26
  conversation and he just it's my it's my first wife.
• 15:30
  Why is she phoning me? He's been peddling that line for
• 15:34
  years, isn't it? But it was brilliant because it
• 15:37
  was Tom and, you know, and. You remember him watching this
• 15:42
  season on the Behind the Soda and how he watches it.
• 15:46
  Elizabeth Sladen. And he's going.
• 15:48
  Oh, Elizabeth, I'll save you. He's going.
• 15:52
  At one point someone threatens her.
• 15:53
  He goes. Get away from her, you wine.
• 15:58
  Yeah. It's really weird because later
• 16:00
  seasons when he doesn't, it's almost like they encourage him
• 16:04
  to be a bit more rambunctious and but he's actually sitting 13
• 16:08
  in quite a wistful way. Yeah, he yeah, he's quite
• 16:11
  subdued and serious. But just a look on his face when
• 16:16
  he's seeing Ian and Elizabeth, you know?
• 16:18
  And he's just so happy to see them and remember and that that
• 16:21
  remembrance, because we don't often see the real Tom Baker
• 16:27
  because it's all a show, because that's what he's like.
• 16:30
  And so those glimpses we get, like when he's talking about Liz
• 16:33
  Sladen in the in the tribute that they did on on the season
• 16:37
  team boxer, it's heartbreaking because you don't see Tom crying
• 16:42
  and you don't see him being emotional like that very often.
• 16:46
  They say what? Weren't we lucky, eh?
• 16:50
  You know, and it's, it's something about really old Tom
• 16:56
  that is like, he can do that now because he doesn't, he hasn't
• 17:01
  got anything to prove. And As for really young Tom,
• 17:05
  well, he's just magnificent. Yeah, he's got everything to
• 17:08
  prove at this point. And he's magnificent here in his
• 17:10
  second story. I mean, yeah.
• 17:13
  Yeah, I mean. There's something wonderfully
• 17:16
  physical about how they're trying to solve this.
• 17:20
  So her going through with the cables, them going off to the
• 17:22
  shuttle craft, It's using the geography of the place, yes.
• 17:26
  Really. I don't often get that.
• 17:28
  No, I don't think so. I just think he's thought
• 17:31
  through his setting really cleverly and.
• 17:35
  Just I love this bit where Sarah gets a because the Mirren are
• 17:39
  right outside the grill as she's going past.
• 17:43
  I like it when she said. I can't move the forward.
• 17:46
  Or not back. Oh doctor.
• 17:53
  Oh, Doctor. Oh my God, can we?
• 17:55
  Do that line for line you and me.
• 17:58
  I think so. Doctor or Sarah OH.
• 18:00
  I'll be Sarah. OK, I'll be the doctor.
• 18:02
  Let's go for it. Hang on.
• 18:04
  Oh, no, it's not quite yet. It's coming.
• 18:05
  No. We'll be bloody coming if we
• 18:09
  quote a whole scene. Listeners one apparently you.
• 18:17
  And me ejaculating, I mean. The second you suggested doing
• 18:23
  arc in space, I was close. Got a storm?
• 18:28
  And that and that was that was just on a whim.
• 18:31
  That's the trouble. I keep getting stuck.
• 18:35
  Hold on, Sarah. Sarah, it's just that.
• 18:42
  Oh, here we go, right? Come on, Sarah.
• 18:45
  Hurry. We're on you straight ahead.
• 18:50
  Look, I'll shine a light. Can you see?
• 18:54
  Yes, Doctor, I can't move of. Course you can.
• 19:00
  You've got this far. No, I'm stuck.
• 19:04
  Don't panic, Sarah. Don't panic.
• 19:07
  He's round and try. Again.
• 19:09
  I can't move at all. Stop whining girl, you're
• 19:14
  useless. Oh.
• 19:16
  Doctor. Oh, Doctor, is that all you can
• 19:20
  say for yourself? Stupid, foolish girl.
• 19:24
  We should never have relied on you.
• 19:25
  I knew you'd let us down. That's the trouble.
• 19:28
  With girls like you, you think you're tough.
• 19:31
  But when you can't reel up against it, you've got no guts
• 19:33
  at all. Many hundreds of lives at stake,
• 19:37
  and you lie there bluffing. You wait till I get out.
• 19:41
  I can manage. I don't need your help.
• 19:44
  Thank you very much. Yes.
• 19:45
  You do. Yes you do.
• 19:46
  Yes you do. Oh, you do.
• 19:50
  The line that my mum hated. Hang on, go.
• 19:54
  Away. You've done.
• 19:56
  Marvellously, Sarah, I'm very proud of you.
• 19:58
  I really am. What?
• 20:01
  Oh. Conda again, you're a brute.
• 20:10
  Honestly, it's better than sexist.
• 20:14
  No, he might listen. It's as good as oh.
• 20:19
  My God. Oh, that was fun.
• 20:25
  Look at. Sarah's fear and panic.
• 20:27
  Yeah, no one does it like her. No.
• 20:32
  It's sort of the look on your face when you realise you might
• 20:36
  unexpectedly have a big poo. Sorry sorry but we are in full
• 20:46
  on base under siege now aren't? We, we are now, yes.
• 20:49
  And, and again, there's a chance now for the doctor to sell the
• 20:52
  stakes of what we're doing and why we're doing this.
• 20:56
  Was there any base under siege in Perth?
• 20:58
  We. I'm not sure there was.
• 21:01
  I can't think of any. I suppose it's Earth under siege
• 21:06
  and Inferno. But I usually unit would get
• 21:09
  them out so. So it's weird that Earth is out
• 21:15
  and we're doing this straight away.
• 21:17
  Yeah, it's a real sea change. I think it's something that
• 21:21
  comes with doing these sort of futuristic stories, isn't it?
• 21:25
  Yeah, the again, it's something we said in the under the lake
• 21:30
  before the flood, that this is one of Doctor Who's defaults
• 21:33
  that it will come back to to doing a base under siege every
• 21:37
  so often because it's a natural way of telling a Doctor Who
• 21:40
  story and it's naturally tense and naturally scary.
• 21:45
  An instant that got it really wrong.
• 21:47
  But we said under the lake was competent.
• 21:49
  I don't think he got that part of it wrong.
• 21:52
  And I don't think any of the Season 5 big bases under siege
• 21:55
  really get it wrong. They're quite drawn out in a lot
• 21:59
  of places, but they're never wrong it feels.
• 22:03
  But a real. This is totally subjective.
• 22:05
  My I think the best example of based under siege is Midnight.
• 22:09
  Well, absolutely. And that's a really enclosed
• 22:12
  space that they're in. And and that just the twist that
• 22:16
  the monster isn't, it's not the monster, it's the people that.
• 22:22
  It's a. It's a.
• 22:27
  Yeah. It's not one that I watch very
• 22:29
  often because it's it's one that you need to say, but I think.
• 22:36
  It's Lindsay Causan's character. She's nasty.
• 22:39
  She's a nasty piece of work. It'll be you next.
• 22:43
  Oh, she's horrible. Oh, look, we're talking about
• 22:45
  midnight over this fabulous. We're in prop.
• 22:49
  We're in prop. I can't talk.
• 22:52
  It's too many hours. Look at this fabulous lash up
• 22:55
  he's got here in the cryogenic chamber.
• 22:57
  Yeah, and again, it's what all doctors do, isn't it, that
• 23:01
  they're all very good at that kind of thing, and it's just
• 23:04
  great watching them at work. But it's not often that we just
• 23:07
  sort of sit around like this. I like this.
• 23:09
  No. And they've got the time to do
• 23:11
  this because they're going to to they, they're safe in there.
• 23:16
  And he's just saying too no an hour, isn't he?
• 23:18
  We can try the cryogenic chamber.
• 23:19
  That's what you want. You.
• 23:20
  Can't get in? Yeah.
• 23:25
  And the consequences if they fail, I mean, it's one, yeah.
• 23:31
  It's one of the sort of the the most dramatic.
• 23:34
  It's the future of the human race.
• 23:38
  Do we have to do that again? I'll suppose frontiers.
• 23:42
  Yeah, and Utopia. Oh God, yeah.
• 23:49
  But terrible things happen when they when they went off.
• 23:51
  Well, well, exactly, yes. Not a word to the time, Not
• 23:55
  sigh. All right, No.
• 23:59
  And I think Bennett is sensible enough to not too often shoot
• 24:04
  the wieron in profile. So.
• 24:06
  No. So what was it?
• 24:08
  Could you see the actor's legs? Sort of.
• 24:10
  Yeah, I think there are photos where you can see Stuart Bell's
• 24:13
  leg, little feet underneath the Wieron costume, because the full
• 24:16
  Wieron prop that falls out of the cupboard has got the little
• 24:20
  sting on the bottom and the little sort of claws.
• 24:24
  And yet the little ones that you have that.
• 24:26
  Crawl over the model. Obviously they're on sort of
• 24:29
  wires or something. Yeah.
• 24:30
  I. Think it it does silly.
• 24:34
  I think just about because because you see that, you feel
• 24:36
  like you've seen it hip. I feel like the face is very
• 24:41
  good. Yep, and and we've got a bit of
• 24:45
  a thoughtful wearing here through the body language, but.
• 24:49
  So sorry to. Do this but.
• 24:51
  You think the body looks like a big turd?
• 24:53
  Yes, it's a shame because I've I think the eyes are brilliant.
• 24:58
  The eyes are really shiny and and you.
• 25:01
  Think they'd be reflecting the camera, but you can't.
• 25:03
  Yeah, but they're not. I think the face is really good,
• 25:07
  but I think the bodies are a bit, yeah.
• 25:10
  Look at the lighting inside this rocket.
• 25:14
  Yes, it's nicely done. It's like you said, it's the
• 25:18
  contrast and in the stacks, in the rocket, in the cryogenics,
• 25:22
  although they have brought the lights down now because the
• 25:24
  power's off. Yeah, I like the blue lighting
• 25:27
  in the shuttle. I think that's that's quite good
• 25:29
  and quite different to the rest of the rest of the sets.
• 25:32
  So it sells. It's a different place.
• 25:35
  We said about the lighting in Genesis of the Dice, didn't we?
• 25:38
  How Moody that was. I think some of the best sort of
• 25:42
  lighting technicians were doing the rounds in the BBC at this.
• 25:45
  Point Absolutely. These are people who who have
• 25:48
  worked for a few years and now really know how to light for
• 25:50
  colour TV. I know where they all went
• 25:53
  during the 80s but. No.
• 25:54
  Well they all went to prestigious productions and ITV
• 25:59
  and films so. You see that how they use the
• 26:02
  Rockets exhaust. Yes, the.
• 26:04
  Mirror way. Yeah, and we missed one of my
• 26:07
  favorite lines where Rogan turns around and says 4 Granervox
• 26:11
  turbines. There was something I remember
• 26:16
  where they did did a spoof Doctor Who addressed that
• 26:19
  started with four Granervox turbines somewhere marmoset.
• 26:27
  Oh my God, I love say, techno Babble.
• 26:34
  Oh, here they come. Oh yeah, I like those shots, I
• 26:37
  think. That's bad.
• 26:39
  And the music's going. Crazy.
• 26:41
  I think Dudley Simpson is selling it.
• 26:43
  I mean, they're obviously being dragged along and you'll
• 26:45
  probably see that last one for a bit too long, but the first shot
• 26:49
  of them appearing up. It's being shot on film cameras,
• 26:54
  isn't it? Yeah.
• 26:55
  So it's got that sort of fuzzy you can't see.
• 26:58
  The wire too much. Oh, now it works for me.
• 27:02
  Yeah, and it's only on the screen for a for a few seconds,
• 27:06
  so that's fine you. Know what I can say is how I
• 27:09
  felt about this when I first watched it when I was young.
• 27:11
  I was just gripped. Yeah, and me too.
• 27:14
  I loved this story from I only saw parts three and four It it
• 27:20
  wasn't until the BBC video came out, which fortunately came out
• 27:23
  that summer. So that summer, yeah, it was so
• 27:27
  that I saw parts 1 and 2. So it was that that was fine,
• 27:31
  but it was AI didn't need just those.
• 27:36
  Those two episodes I really liked straight away.
• 27:39
  Just to say again, because we we can't really stroke Roger Murray
• 27:43
  Leach for too much longer, so I'm going to do it now.
• 27:45
  We had four successive scenes there.
• 27:47
  We had one in the cryogenics chamber, one on the exterior of
• 27:50
  the arc. The model one on the corridor.
• 27:52
  One in the corridor and then one on the rocket.
• 27:54
  Just the sense of space in this place, yeah.
• 27:58
  And so you, you feel like you're moving because it's a big space.
• 28:02
  There's lots. What happened to this sort of
• 28:05
  visual imagination when we hit car fail?
• 28:08
  Well, yeah, well, everything went wrong.
• 28:10
  Car failed. Oh, the.
• 28:12
  Doctor's going to sacrifice his life.
• 28:14
  Yeah, with a sinistic lock. Useless words that are in your
• 28:21
  head. I know you don't want trouble
• 28:24
  with the space technicians, Union Doctor.
• 28:27
  That's my job. Which is a topical joke in 1974
• 28:32
  when they were filming this so. Well, it wasn't.
• 28:35
  About doing that, Holmes, was he?
• 28:37
  No, that's nice. And I Rogan who we do like, I
• 28:41
  think. Sacrifices himself.
• 28:45
  It's certainly better than Coach Almos doing it.
• 28:47
  I. Always use him as a.
• 28:48
  As a comparison. Look at that lovely shot, the
• 28:51
  rocket. Yeah.
• 28:52
  So, yeah. So it's a very odd choice to not
• 28:55
  have the other shots of the Ark on film because they could
• 28:58
  easily have just film those and maybe it was sort of about the
• 29:02
  transitions in the studio and and things like that, that.
• 29:06
  Who knows what you're saying earlier Sigh about Sarah
• 29:08
  thinking the doctors did. Yep, here we go.
• 29:12
  Hasn't done this since Monster of Pelodon.
• 29:14
  He's like fuck it, I was stuck in the 30th century.
• 29:18
  Yeah, in this really uncomfortable costume.
• 29:22
  But don't worry, that woman from A Christmas Carol is going to
• 29:24
  get some use out of it. Oh, Doctor, you're alive.
• 29:30
  All that small she gives her. We're all alive now.
• 29:34
  Sarah Rogan's bravery. So virus now is entirely is down
• 29:41
  to her. To.
• 29:43
  Wake up the entire human race. Take them down to the earth,
• 29:47
  repopulate it, set up a culture and a society.
• 29:52
  That's quite a responsibility. I quite like Noah's.
• 29:55
  Goodbye, Vira. What does he say?
• 29:59
  Some last semblance of humanity? Yeah, well, and and he says
• 30:05
  today, doesn't he? Yeah, by by blowing up all the
• 30:08
  wirren. So the plot uses the
• 30:10
  transformation and that psychological.
• 30:13
  And he and his human side wins human spirit.
• 30:17
  It's very clever. Yeah.
• 30:21
  Very clever. I mean, it's a hard 1 to
• 30:26
  criticize this isn't it? It is and the only thing we've
• 30:30
  really got is Sarah Jane being a bit sidelined.
• 30:35
  I don't think there is anything else.
• 30:37
  No, the like, the only thing I would say is like what Mestor
• 30:40
  said is I can understand if you like your Doctor Who to be more
• 30:45
  fun than this, that this would be a bit boring for you.
• 30:48
  Yeah, but I'd like my Doctor Who to be more fun than this.
• 30:51
  But I love this one. I'm starting to learn, you know,
• 30:55
  you've got a bit of a dark side. Only a bit.
• 30:58
  We all thought you was fluffy and cuddling.
• 31:06
  I think we are. We're coming into the next story
• 31:09
  without going. We are.
• 31:13
  So I guess we figured that we'd go down to the planet and then
• 31:17
  we cut. No, actually, I think people
• 31:19
  probably thought that, you know, oh, it's fun.
• 31:21
  We're going to go down to the Earth.
• 31:23
  But actually, we'll just go to the next story and we'll start
• 31:25
  at the time. And we won't see this, but
• 31:27
  actually following it on is a really smart move.
• 31:30
  And again into Genesis, and again to revenge, and then that
• 31:33
  into Terra The. Zygomes.
• 31:36
  Doesn't she look adorable in her hat and her her yellow?
• 31:40
  I love the bit where she's in in the hill with her legs sticking
• 31:44
  up. Going oh.
• 31:46
  And here, look, Fire is going to smile now.
• 31:50
  Life is. Holding.
• 31:51
  The arc and soon the world. Sigh, I maybe would have gone
• 32:00
  out on the laugh. Yeah.
• 32:02
  Oh, I quite like her sort of turning around and striding off
• 32:05
  to work. It's a sort of walk that a
• 32:10
  fabulous bitch gives on the first day of her job when she
• 32:13
  knows she's the. Person in the.
• 32:14
  Room, you know, wow. So.
• 32:17
  Lucy McCall asks us, does linking the three stories make
• 32:21
  sense? Revenge of the Cybermen Sultan
• 32:23
  experiment arc in space? Or would they work better
• 32:26
  standing alone? It's unique, and I think that's
• 32:30
  extremely well in this season. Yeah.
• 32:34
  And fortunately they're so interlinked.
• 32:37
  We can't shove any Big Finished stories or BBC Past Doctor
• 32:41
  Adventures in there. No.
• 32:43
  So that's a very good thing indeed.
• 32:48
  Can't go for a commentary, you know, without a fabulous
• 32:51
  question from Lucy. No, absolutely not.
• 32:55
  And another snog marry blast into space or on an exploding
• 33:00
  spaceship, says Fraser Noah's bubble wrap hand.
• 33:05
  Davros clams the Andrazani Magma beast.
• 33:09
  Oh Christ, go on. You do it, you do it.
• 33:11
  It's all yours. Well, mine.
• 33:18
  He's got a diseased mind, I swear.
• 33:21
  He has, hasn't he? OK, right, Snog the clams
• 33:26
  because at least you get something to eat out of them.
• 33:30
  Marry Noah's bubble wrap hand and avoid the Andrazani magma
• 33:34
  beast. I don't know, is that an answer?
• 33:36
  It's an answer. He started off.
• 33:38
  Just doing three people now, it's getting more weird and
• 33:41
  macabre with each one. Isn't it just?
• 33:45
  Well, any more questions before we go into our free?
• 33:47
  Yeah, and there's another snug. Here we go.
• 33:49
  You can have another snug marry in a void from the lovely Joe
• 33:52
  Short, Who says snug marry cover in bubble wrap, painted green.
• 33:57
  Harry, Sarah or a Wiran? I'd snug Sarah because Elizabeth
• 34:03
  Snegman is beautiful. I'd marry Harry and I would do
• 34:08
  the third thing to the Wiran. Was it?
• 34:10
  Yes, yeah. I'd do do the nasty thing to the
• 34:13
  Wiran. Ian Winterton asks with all
• 34:17
  these link stories, how long does it mean the Doctor, Sarah
• 34:19
  and Harry go without taking a dump?
• 34:24
  Earlier, wouldn't I? Sometime, actually, you know.
• 34:32
  John Cook says this is the only story in all of Doctor Who that
• 34:35
  has ever scared me. The first episode is perfection
• 34:38
  and the whole thing really eerie.
• 34:41
  Terrified me when I first saw it on VHS at age 11 and still makes
• 34:45
  me uneasy now. Yeah, we can see why.
• 34:48
  Good points all. Just checking to make sure we
• 34:55
  have done everything, Gary Dexter says.
• 34:57
  That transformation traumatized me as a kid.
• 35:00
  Traumatized. Wow.
• 35:02
  Yeah, is the Earth society on the arc colours?
• 35:06
  Creeds have forgotten? No capitalism, regimented,
• 35:09
  scientific, collectivised and aspirational.
• 35:12
  The sort of society we would like to become?
• 35:14
  Asks Joseph Cooper. Oh, good question, Joseph.
• 35:18
  I don't think so. Actually, no, I'm I'm feeling
• 35:21
  there's going to it's going to be a bit exclusive, he says.
• 35:26
  It's all been cross evaluated. The genetics, you know, are
• 35:29
  perfectly matched. No differences, isn't it?
• 35:33
  There's there's nothing in the pot that's eccentric and a bit
• 35:37
  offbeat. And so no, I don't think so.
• 35:40
  I feel like it's our flaws that define us, so if everybody is
• 35:43
  perfect, it'll be very boring. Derek Matheson just says we
• 35:47
  shall absorb the humans. Yeah, he's been living a life.
• 35:52
  He's been living a life like me, ain't he?
• 35:53
  Yeah, Freelance liar says. Why is it so fucking good?
• 35:59
  We've just spent three hours explaining why.
• 36:04
  And finally, Matt Beans, who's Matt Sawyer asks, was Robert
• 36:11
  Holmes right to rewrite it, especially now we've heard the
• 36:15
  original version via Big Finish? I've not heard that, so I can't.
• 36:20
  No, nor me. I've heard the trailer and it is
• 36:23
  definitely Tom doing Tom rather than the Doctor.
• 36:31
  We can only speak for what we've just watched.
• 36:33
  Yes, every writer we write it. Maybe the other version would
• 36:38
  have been better than that. I doubt it.
• 36:42
  No, I yeah, I I'm inclined to go with Bob Holmes and Philip
• 36:48
  Hinchcliffe's instincts because they rarely got it wrong.
• 36:53
  Yeah, I mean, I do feel they made some mistakes.
• 36:56
  Yeah, but. We talked about the ladies, but
• 37:00
  I think they produced 3 extremely solid seasons of
• 37:04
  Doctor Who, Yeah. Absolutely.
• 37:07
  So I think probably rewriting was the way to go.
• 37:12
  Thank you to everybody though that said.
• 37:14
  I'm overwhelmed by that. I I'm never asking for questions
• 37:18
  again because that was just too much it.
• 37:21
  Was it was nice though, because we got to have it was voices
• 37:24
  throughout the whole thing. Yeah.
• 37:25
  And there were there were some questions that really made us
• 37:27
  think. Yeah, and were beautifully
• 37:30
  written as well. Yes.
• 37:32
  So thank you everyone. I'll tell you something that
• 37:34
  won't be beautifully eloquent, and that is me giving my reasons
• 37:37
  as to why dark in space, but I'd like to start with you.
• 37:42
  OK, I mean, where do you start? OK, I'm going to go for an
• 37:46
  unexpected one. I'm going to go for Dudley
• 37:48
  Simpson, who I think finds his mojo because you compare this
• 37:53
  with the score to Robot, which is quite a conventional Pertwee
• 37:57
  style action romp. Then here suddenly he is turning
• 38:02
  on the atmosphere for the first time and it's creepy and it
• 38:06
  really adds to the story. And I think this would be a
• 38:08
  lesser story without that score. And I think it works really,
• 38:12
  really well. I want to screw that at all.
• 38:15
  It's one of his best, I think. This I.
• 38:17
  Think so. I think it stands right up.
• 38:19
  And like I think some of his scores are similar sounding, I
• 38:24
  don't think there's another one like this.
• 38:26
  There's not another one that sounds like the arc in space.
• 38:29
  I am going to say Tom Baker, which is obvious, but I want to
• 38:34
  say it because I've been a little bit unkind about Tom
• 38:36
  Baker in Season 12, because I do think in Robot Sontaran
• 38:40
  Experiment and Revenge of the Assignment, I can see nerves and
• 38:44
  he's not quite fully formed and it's quite exciting to watch,
• 38:47
  but I'm so used to him only there.
• 38:50
  But in this story, with this script that gives him these
• 38:54
  opportunities, he is magnificent.
• 38:59
  I'm going to go for Wendy Williams as Vira because I think
• 39:02
  she is wonderful. I think she plays it
• 39:04
  beautifully. She gives a stellar performance
• 39:08
  that rarely gets talked about. She's one of the few strong
• 39:11
  women of the Hinchcliffe years and that's something to
• 39:14
  celebrate. And that's the first story.
• 39:17
  And I think, yeah, she gives a faultless performance.
• 39:21
  I think the way she goes from being an ice queen to warm and
• 39:25
  lovely by the end show is a real nice progression that is well
• 39:30
  played. I'm going to say the setting,
• 39:33
  but it's not just Roger Murray Leach's sets which are
• 39:37
  incredible, but how Holmes utilises the setting so
• 39:43
  skilfully to tell his story. We've talked about it in episode
• 39:46
  4, but basically getting from A to B is tough and depending.
• 39:51
  On where the we're in. Are the story takes sort of
• 39:54
  diversions, the setting determines the entire story and
• 39:59
  right at the heart of it is the cryogenic chamber, which is the
• 40:02
  stakes. Yes, it's it's like the house in
• 40:06
  Tooth and Claw. It's you could not tell that
• 40:09
  story without that house, without a telescope, without
• 40:12
  those levels for the werewolf to run up.
• 40:15
  It's like Smith and Jones in the hospital, exactly the same
• 40:18
  Voyage of the Damned and the ship.
• 40:20
  Every now and again, a doctor's story comes with a location that
• 40:23
  isn't interchangeable. It couldn't just be another
• 40:25
  house or whatever. And this is so perfectly,
• 40:30
  perfectly utilised. So yeah, Robert Holmes script
• 40:33
  using the setting and the excellent realisation.
• 40:38
  I'm going to go for the cliffhangers because I think
• 40:42
  there are three strong cliffhangers to this story.
• 40:44
  The where I'm falling out of the cupboards is great.
• 40:47
  It's a nice jump scare that you're not expecting the hand
• 40:50
  coming up, which looks a bit hokey, but it's played
• 40:54
  beautifully. I think it's really creepy and
• 40:57
  strange. And then the transformation of
• 41:00
  Noah into a full Warren at the end of Part 3 is really good
• 41:05
  too. So I think get their memorable
• 41:08
  images that bring the audience back.
• 41:10
  And Part 4 leading into another story.
• 41:13
  Yeah, Well, exactly. Yeah.
• 41:14
  So you've got another cliffhanger on the top.
• 41:17
  And my last thing is going to be, I mean, I can say Emra
• 41:22
  stroke, Harry Fraser Ross. What does he bring to this?
• 41:26
  Just so much colour, so much humour, so much personality in
• 41:29
  this very sterile environment. We didn't get a lot of him.
• 41:34
  I think this is one of his best scripts to do.
• 41:40
  I would have liked to have seen more of Harry if he was written
• 41:45
  for this strong. I'm thinking like Genesis and
• 41:48
  Revenge and that he is sort of just pushed to the side and it's
• 41:51
  a shame. Maybe it is one person too many.
• 41:55
  Maybe we needed a couple of stories with Harry and then
• 41:57
  bring Sarah back in. I don't know, something like
• 42:00
  that. But no, because.
• 42:01
  Him and Tom work so well together and.
• 42:05
  Also because Ian Marter was a handsome, charismatic man.
• 42:11
  Apparently a huge intellect as well.
• 42:13
  It was a really small. Oak.
• 42:15
  Just charming with the people around him and bisexual so I
• 42:19
  would have been in with a chance.
• 42:23
  There we go. Well, I think we've.
• 42:26
  Covered that in some depth. I think we have I, I really
• 42:29
  enjoyed that and it's just not a story I I think to watch often,
• 42:33
  but whenever I do, I'm really pleased to have and there aren't
• 42:38
  that many stories that you think every time you watch it, you
• 42:41
  just love it. Yeah, I I've never shifted on
• 42:44
  this one. I have with a lot of classic who
• 42:46
  stories in both. This one is still damn good,
• 42:49
  isn't it? It is brilliant and it inspired
• 42:54
  Rusty Davis and Steven Moffett. So yes.
• 42:56
  And what's? Better than that.
• 42:57
  Well, in one of those cases, that's a great thing.
• 42:59
  In the other. Well, I know opinions differ on
• 43:03
  this apparently. Oh, in your usual fashion of
• 43:07
  explaining the setting of where we're going next, Where, where,
• 43:12
  where's Hamster taking us? Oh my God, where are we going
• 43:15
  next? Well, I suppose we're going to
• 43:18
  have to to do it. I've been mentioning it since we
• 43:21
  did snake dance. It's the 60th anniversary.
• 43:27
  We're going to have to go to Elizabethan England, the present
• 43:33
  day, to the Black Archives, going to have to go to Gallifrey
• 43:37
  on its last day. The last day of the time.
• 43:41
  What? It's the Day of the Doctor,
• 43:42
  isn't it? Would you be annoyed if I said
• 43:46
  that I actually have some reservations about Day of the
• 43:50
  Doctor now? No, they'd be fascinated to talk
• 43:54
  about it. Yeah, I know.
• 43:56
  I think it's, I think it is an incredible episode and I think
• 44:00
  the fact that it went out and disappointed relatively few
• 44:03
  people against all expectations was astonishing.
• 44:09
  I just have some personal criticisms of it.
• 44:12
  What I'm thinking. It is great.
• 44:14
  So, you know, it'll be a loving, I think sometimes just a few.
• 44:22
  Yeah, would that be fascinating? Gives it a bit of edge anyway.
• 44:26
  Yeah. And I know we had a request from
• 44:31
  Mr. Daniel Knight to come and join us to do that one.
• 44:34
  Well, Daniel Knight. Can we turn that down?
• 44:37
  This podcast so the three of us will convene for.
• 44:42
  The day of the Doctor. What does he do?
• 44:45
  You froze this Sonic? Yeah.
• 44:47
  Doctor, I've been running all. That Oh my Oh my God that was
• 44:52
  the best trailer ever. That was.
• 44:55
  Well, we'll put that on before then, should we?
• 44:59
  Including that really terrible fake John Perry.
• 45:05
  I'll cut it there.