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#250 Jason Flom with Rodney Lincoln · Wrongful Conviction

0:03
Speaker 1: In the early seventies, Rodney Lincoln served two years in
0:06
Speaker 1: prison for accidentally killing a man in a bar fight.
0:09
Speaker 1: About ten years later, he briefly dated a woman named
0:12
Speaker 1: Joanne Tate, and about a year after that, in the
0:15
Speaker 1: early morning hours of April twenty seventh, nineteen eighty two,
0:18
Speaker 1: Joanne was brutally stabbed to death and sexually assaulted in
0:21
Speaker 1: her Saint Louis apartment. Her two young daughters, seven year
0:25
Speaker 1: old Melissa and four year old Renee, miraculously survived the attack.
0:29
Speaker 1: Joanne's brother thought her ex boyfriend, Rodney Lincoln, resembled a
0:33
Speaker 1: composite sketch. Investigators presented the older girl, Melissa, with a
0:38
Speaker 1: very suggestive lineup, and it had the desired effect. Without
0:41
Speaker 1: DNA testing available, this misidentification, along with Rodney's past conviction,
0:47
Speaker 1: sealed his fate. The first trial ended in a hung jury. However,
0:51
Speaker 1: in the second, the state leaned heavily on dubious hair
0:55
Speaker 1: microscopy evidence and Melissa's testimony. Unfortunately for Rodney, pointing out
0:59
Speaker 1: the inconsistencies between Melissa's initial statements and trial testimony could
1:04
Speaker 1: not overcome the power of a then nine year old
1:06
Speaker 1: girl describing an unspeakable attack. Twenty seven years later, DNA
1:11
Speaker 1: testing excluded Rodney, but Melissa's testimony still looked Finally, when
1:16
Speaker 1: a serial killer named Tommy Lynn Sells had confessed the
1:19
Speaker 1: scores of eerly similar crimes, Melissa immediately recognized him for
1:24
Speaker 1: photos as the actual attacker. However, her recantation was still
1:28
Speaker 1: somehow not enough to immediately set Rodney free. This is
1:33
Speaker 1: wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction Today's episode. I mean,
1:50
Speaker 1: it's truly mind blowing, even for me and I've been
1:53
Speaker 1: doing this for a long time. This is a case
1:57
Speaker 1: of the wrongful conviction of a man named Rodney Lincoln
2:00
Speaker 1: who's here with us today. And first of all, before
2:03
Speaker 1: I go any further, Rodney, you know what can I say?
2:07
Speaker 1: I'm sorry you're here under these circumstances. You never should
2:10
Speaker 1: have to go through any of this in the first place.
2:12
Speaker 1: But I'm obviously very happy that you're here to share
2:14
Speaker 1: your story. So thanks for being here today.
2:17
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me dation.
2:19
Speaker 1: We also have with us today one of the most
2:22
Speaker 1: tenacious and persistent fighters for Rodney's innocence, and that's Rodney's
2:25
Speaker 1: own daughter, Kay Lincoln. Kay, thanks so much for being
2:28
Speaker 1: with us today, no problem. And Rodney what a guy.
2:32
Speaker 1: I mean, this is a man who served over thirty
2:34
Speaker 1: six years in prison and his case involves junk science,
2:39
Speaker 1: a mistaken eyewitness identification. There's a serial killer whose name
2:45
Speaker 1: you'll probably recognize because he was responsible for other wrongful
2:48
Speaker 1: convictions we've covered on this series. I mean, Rodney's case
2:52
Speaker 1: is a case that when you're at one of these
2:55
Speaker 1: innocent conferences and you start talking about this or that,
2:57
Speaker 1: people go, yeah, but have you heard about Rodney Lincoln?
3:00
Speaker 1: It's like whispered because this case is so bad, shit crazy. So,
3:05
Speaker 1: without further ado, let's go back in time. So where
3:09
Speaker 1: did you grow up?
3:10
Speaker 2: I grew up in South Saint Louis, Missouri. I was
3:15
Speaker 2: a happy kid. Were poured, but everybody was poured too,
3:20
Speaker 2: so we didn't know that we was boy.
3:23
Speaker 1: Right. There was no social media back then, so you
3:26
Speaker 1: had a happy childhood. And then it goes up to
3:28
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy three. You're still a very young man. Right.
3:31
Speaker 1: We got into a drunken bar fight and this is
3:34
Speaker 1: not the case we're here to talk about. This was
3:36
Speaker 1: something that actually happened, right, But do you want to
3:39
Speaker 1: talk about that just for a second.
3:41
Speaker 2: In nineteen tell me three, I was convicted of a
3:44
Speaker 2: second degree murtor. I was in a boy drinking one
3:48
Speaker 2: day and bring the mind from across the street came
3:52
Speaker 2: over and told me, Hey, some guy just told something
3:55
Speaker 2: out you were trucking. Well, I had enough drink to
3:59
Speaker 2: mean that I would ready to go after him. Unfortunate
4:02
Speaker 2: way I did. We got into confiscation and he threw
4:08
Speaker 2: a rock at me, and miss I threw a rack
4:12
Speaker 2: at him, and didn't I wound you up? Convicted a
4:16
Speaker 2: second degree MODI.
4:18
Speaker 1: Well, you served your time in prison for that crime,
4:22
Speaker 1: but little would you know at the time that was
4:25
Speaker 1: just the tip of the iceberg for your experience with
4:28
Speaker 1: the criminal legal system in this country. Right, and in
4:31
Speaker 1: this case you were actually guilty. And did you plead
4:34
Speaker 1: guilty in that case?
4:36
Speaker 2: Yes, I did. I compressed to the crime. I was
4:40
Speaker 2: rightfully convicted.
4:42
Speaker 1: All right. So now it's the late seventies getting into
4:44
Speaker 1: the early eighties and you're out of prison. What were
4:47
Speaker 1: you doing for work? And how did you first meet
4:50
Speaker 1: joe Anne Tate? Mighter says you dated at some point, right.
4:53
Speaker 2: Yes, we dated a few times. I was Kendy boy
4:58
Speaker 2: at a place called the Cottage Inn, and this couple
5:04
Speaker 2: comes in the boar and I find out that this
5:07
Speaker 2: is Joanne Tape and her brother. While there, I got
5:13
Speaker 2: talking to Joanne. When they got ready to leave, Joanne
5:18
Speaker 2: gave me a piece of paper with her phone number
5:21
Speaker 2: on it asked me to call it that night when
5:25
Speaker 2: I got off work. I called, she answered, And that
5:29
Speaker 2: was the first time we met outside of the boy
5:32
Speaker 2: And when I say we dated, it wasn't like a
5:36
Speaker 2: mad love affair. Our relationship was purely sexual, okay.
5:42
Speaker 1: And then how long after that does this horrible crime happen?
5:46
Speaker 2: It was just about a year. I think, maybe a
5:48
Speaker 2: little over it because I had been dating my girlfriend
5:52
Speaker 2: at the time for about eight months.
5:55
Speaker 1: Now we fast forward to the early morning hours of
5:59
Speaker 1: April two, twenty seventh, ninety eighty two. This is going
6:02
Speaker 1: to be hard to hear. I'm just going to warn
6:04
Speaker 1: the audience. This crime is so grotesque that it's hard
6:08
Speaker 1: for me to even say it or read it, because
6:11
Speaker 1: this was the mark of a serial killer who was
6:15
Speaker 1: reaching the depths of his depraved crime spree. So in
6:19
Speaker 1: the early morning hours of April twenty seventh, ninety eighty two,
6:23
Speaker 1: joe Ane Tate was thirty five years old. She was
6:26
Speaker 1: stabbed in the chest and sexually assaulted with a broomstick
6:31
Speaker 1: in her apartment at Saint Louis, Missouri. Now her seven
6:33
Speaker 1: year old daughter, Melissa, also was stabbed several times at
6:37
Speaker 1: her four year old daughter, Renee, had her throat cut.
6:40
Speaker 1: The girls survived the attack, but their mother tragically did not.
6:45
Speaker 1: Her body was discovered at ten am when her brother
6:49
Speaker 1: and boyfriend at the apartment and found her lying face
6:52
Speaker 1: down in a pool of blood, and her daughter's lying
6:55
Speaker 1: there as well, covered in blood with multiple stab wounds.
6:59
Speaker 1: The uptack neighbor had heard a loud noise from missus
7:02
Speaker 1: Tate's apartment at approximately four am that morning, and then
7:05
Speaker 1: when police arrived at the scene, they noticed the two
7:08
Speaker 1: girls were still alive, but they saw that there were
7:12
Speaker 1: and again brace yourself, bristles of a broom were protruding
7:16
Speaker 1: from the anus of missiou Ane Tate now Renee. The
7:20
Speaker 1: four year old never offered any identification of the attacker,
7:23
Speaker 1: but Melissa, the seven year old, gave the police various
7:27
Speaker 1: different statements. Now for a while, she stuck to a
7:30
Speaker 1: story that a man named Bill was the attacker, right,
7:34
Speaker 1: not Rodnie Bill, and she gave the police some details
7:36
Speaker 1: about his car at his house. I believe they also
7:40
Speaker 1: made a sketch. But do you know how your name
7:44
Speaker 1: first came up to the police.
7:46
Speaker 2: The way my name came up is they found my
7:49
Speaker 2: name in Joanne's diary and Buddy said that the guy,
7:57
Speaker 2: thank you of that, that's the guy just gets looks.
8:02
Speaker 1: And police eventually showed a picture of you, a photo
8:05
Speaker 1: of you, Roddy to the young girl Melissa, and they
8:08
Speaker 1: had the fact that you had a murder conviction on
8:10
Speaker 1: your record from the drunken fight ten years earlier, completely
8:14
Speaker 1: unrelated by the way, which was a very different situation obviously.
8:17
Speaker 1: But after the show Melissa your photo, this poor little
8:20
Speaker 1: girl was shown a four person live lineup with you
8:22
Speaker 1: in it. And here's the thing. You had short hair
8:25
Speaker 1: and a slight build, but the other three men didn't
8:28
Speaker 1: resemble you at all.
8:29
Speaker 2: Right, one was about six inches taller than I was,
8:36
Speaker 2: and all of them had stremeway long hair and were
8:43
Speaker 2: built a lot bigger than I was. I've always been
8:47
Speaker 2: a small person. I was smaller than that lineup. Not
8:51
Speaker 2: to mention that they were all younger than I.
8:54
Speaker 1: Was Yeah, So this is suggestive. Isn't even a strong
8:58
Speaker 1: enough word. And this is why I believe that these
9:00
Speaker 1: things should all be recorded. I wouldness identification, not just
9:03
Speaker 1: interrogations of suspects, because I mean, how much more traumatized
9:07
Speaker 1: could a child be. She's witnessed her own mother's brutal
9:10
Speaker 1: murder and also was stabbed several times by this monster.
9:15
Speaker 1: And now imagine her, this little child, with these police officers,
9:20
Speaker 1: you know, steering her. Maybe they were doing it consciously, subconsciously,
9:24
Speaker 1: I don't know, towards the one guy in the lineup
9:28
Speaker 1: who looked anything like what she had said she remembered
9:31
Speaker 1: from this attack. Also, during the investigation, there was hair
9:34
Speaker 1: found and Puba CA hair that apparently did not belong
9:37
Speaker 1: to Joe an tape. So the state brings in a
9:39
Speaker 1: few quote unquote experts and we'll get to that insanity
9:45
Speaker 1: in just a bit. Okay, So you're arrested, Rodney on
9:49
Speaker 1: May twenty third of nineteen eighty two, So this is
9:52
Speaker 1: just a few weeks after the attack. You're arrested and
9:57
Speaker 1: charged based on this let me say this sort of
10:00
Speaker 1: just the identification procedure, this junk science of the hair
10:06
Speaker 1: and the basic idea that they had tunnel vision because
10:09
Speaker 1: they said, well, here's a guy who had been convicted
10:12
Speaker 1: of murder, nothing like this one, nothing in common at all,
10:15
Speaker 1: and who dated her just briefly, so it must be him.
10:18
Speaker 1: So you're in jail awaiting trial from May nineteen eighty
10:21
Speaker 1: two until August of nineteen eighty three.
10:24
Speaker 2: I would be in jail for five hundred and thirty
10:27
Speaker 2: five days.
10:29
Speaker 1: Five hundred and thirty five days, that's about a year
10:31
Speaker 1: and a half awaiting the trial. But now you had kids.
10:34
Speaker 1: You had with four kids by this.
10:35
Speaker 2: Point, ah, yes, two downs and two daughters.
10:40
Speaker 1: And your daughter Cave's here with us now. So kay,
10:43
Speaker 1: what was all of this like for you? What do
10:46
Speaker 1: you remember feeling at that time?
10:48
Speaker 3: Confusion, why was this happening? Just was so lost as
10:56
Speaker 3: to why how could this even be a thought that
10:59
Speaker 3: he could do something like this. And I remember the
11:03
Speaker 3: first time we went to visit him when he was
11:05
Speaker 3: being held at the city jail, shortly after he was arrested,
11:09
Speaker 3: and he just looked us in the eyes and said,
11:11
Speaker 3: I need you to know I didn't do this. I
11:13
Speaker 3: had nothing to do with this, And that was really
11:17
Speaker 3: all I needed to hear and I really believed that. Okay,
11:20
Speaker 3: so he didn't do it. These guys are trying to
11:23
Speaker 3: just do their job. They'll figure out that it wasn't
11:26
Speaker 3: him and he'll come home. And of course that didn't happen.
11:30
Speaker 3: And it was a year and a half before he
11:32
Speaker 3: went to trial, and we thought, well, okay, he's going
11:35
Speaker 3: to trial, they'll figure it out, the judge'll sent him home.
11:38
Speaker 1: And in the first trial that almost panned out. And
11:42
Speaker 1: who represented you, Rodney.
11:44
Speaker 2: I'll eject the ganet by an attorney by the name
11:47
Speaker 2: of Robert Hampey.
11:49
Speaker 1: And how long did the trial take?
11:51
Speaker 2: The big trout took fifteen days.
11:55
Speaker 1: And it ended in the seven to five split verdict
11:58
Speaker 1: which hung the jerry. Of course, so now back to
12:01
Speaker 1: jail to await another trial, which took place in October
12:05
Speaker 1: of nineteen eighty three. And was it the same attorney
12:09
Speaker 1: that represented you in the second trial?
12:10
Speaker 2: Yes.
12:12
Speaker 1: So at the second trial, the state presented two criminalists
12:16
Speaker 1: who were employed by the City of Saint Louis Police department,
12:19
Speaker 1: Joseph Crowe and Harold Mesler, who testified about hair that
12:22
Speaker 1: was found at the crime scene. Now, Crow said that
12:24
Speaker 1: he examined a blanket found in the bedroom, found hair,
12:28
Speaker 1: and found one sample of a pubic hair that did
12:30
Speaker 1: not belong to the victim. On cross examination, mister Crowe
12:35
Speaker 1: stated that the information that can be gathered from a
12:37
Speaker 1: hair is limited and that he didn't think it was
12:39
Speaker 1: possible to determine the age of the person. That one
12:41
Speaker 1: could not identify the ethnicity of a hair from a
12:44
Speaker 1: Caucasian quote with a great deal of certainty. This doesn't
12:49
Speaker 1: sound like very strong testimony. So the hair evidence was
12:52
Speaker 1: then passed to Mesler, the other guy, to examine, and
12:55
Speaker 1: he testified that compared to a sample from you dy,
12:59
Speaker 1: along with samp from thirty seven other Caucasians, the thirty
13:02
Speaker 1: seven others were not comparable to the hair found at
13:04
Speaker 1: the scene. Okay, so I'm no scientists, but so these
13:08
Speaker 1: thirty seven other samples, thirty seven other people, that's what
13:13
Speaker 1: passed for the exclusion of anyone else on the planet. Right,
13:21
Speaker 1: It's unbelievable that this is allowed to go on in
13:25
Speaker 1: a court of law. But okay, Later, the same guy,
13:27
Speaker 1: Mesa testify that when examining the thirty seven other individuals's
13:31
Speaker 1: hair along with Tate's hair and Lincoln's hair, only yours
13:35
Speaker 1: Rodney matched, and that in two hundred cases that he
13:38
Speaker 1: had handled, he had never found one where hair recovered
13:42
Speaker 1: from the crime scene matched to more than one person. Again,
13:45
Speaker 1: what does that even mean or prove? I mean, if
13:48
Speaker 1: the process is getting thirty seven samples, who cares? If
13:52
Speaker 1: you did the same shoddy testing two hundred times or
13:55
Speaker 1: two million times, does that disproved that your suspect's hair
13:59
Speaker 1: is just similar to the actual killers hair? How do
14:03
Speaker 1: you know that from this method? Well, the answer is
14:06
Speaker 1: you don't. Hair microscopy possesses little to no forensic value.
14:12
Speaker 1: You know. I'm reading this fantastic book now, and fact
14:15
Speaker 1: I just finished it last night by m. Chris Fabricant,
14:18
Speaker 1: and it's called Junk Science and the American Criminal Justice System.
14:22
Speaker 1: One of the things it highlights is how the National
14:26
Speaker 1: Category of Sciences did a study not that long ago
14:30
Speaker 1: where the FBI was forced to admit that they had
14:32
Speaker 1: been lying in case after case for decades about this evidence.
14:36
Speaker 1: A sampling of the first five hundred transcripts revealed that
14:39
Speaker 1: special agents had given bogus testimony in about ninety six
14:44
Speaker 1: percent of the cases, thirty five had been death penalty convictions,
14:48
Speaker 1: and all but two of those had been marred by
14:50
Speaker 1: false testimony. Now nine men had already been put to death,
14:55
Speaker 1: and five more had died of other causes while waiting
14:58
Speaker 1: to be executed on death row due to this junk science.
15:02
Speaker 1: It's nothing short of a forensic testimony disaster. So you've
15:08
Speaker 1: got this junk science presented at your trial, Rodney, but
15:11
Speaker 1: it's really there to support Melissa, whose testimony, despite the inconsistencies,
15:16
Speaker 1: was still very powerful. We're talking about what was she
15:20
Speaker 1: by the time of the trial, just nine years old?
15:22
Speaker 2: I believe Jella, yes.
15:24
Speaker 1: So she described with the little nine year old Melissa
15:26
Speaker 1: describe waking up to screams and seeing her mother laying
15:29
Speaker 1: down on her stomach in a little blood. Near the
15:31
Speaker 1: door to her bedroom. She said, she saw a naked
15:34
Speaker 1: man and again I'm sorry you have to hear this,
15:36
Speaker 1: who came over to her bed, picked her up and
15:38
Speaker 1: carried her up to tape the bedroom, put her on
15:41
Speaker 1: the bed, and removed her clothes. She said he tried
15:44
Speaker 1: to get her to quote do a few things. He
15:46
Speaker 1: stand her repeatedly, and she attempted to play dead until
15:50
Speaker 1: he stopped again. This is her testimony, she said. The
15:52
Speaker 1: attacker then washed off the knife and she hid under
15:54
Speaker 1: her sister's bed, and she then heard the attacker hurt
15:57
Speaker 1: her sister. Oh man, this is just kidding worse and worse.
16:01
Speaker 1: When she was in her mother's bedroom, she said she
16:03
Speaker 1: got a good look at the killer. She said she
16:05
Speaker 1: did not remember his name at the time, but she
16:07
Speaker 1: remembered seeing him before that night, a long time ago,
16:09
Speaker 1: when she Renee and her mom spent the night at
16:13
Speaker 1: your house, Rodney. And she said the house was across
16:16
Speaker 1: from a park with a playground, and that your mother
16:19
Speaker 1: and some pets lived there, and she identified the playground
16:22
Speaker 1: at the park from photos. She then identified a photo
16:25
Speaker 1: of Hugh Rodney as her attacker, as attacker of the
16:28
Speaker 1: whole family, and she identified you in the courtroom as well.
16:33
Speaker 1: She then explained that she initially said because you remember
16:36
Speaker 1: she had said Bill, did it right? Because she was
16:39
Speaker 1: sick and hurt and everyone kept bothering her for a name,
16:41
Speaker 1: she just said Bill. She stated several times that Bill
16:46
Speaker 1: and Lincoln were the same person, and at the time
16:49
Speaker 1: of the attacks, she did not really know your name.
16:52
Speaker 2: And I sit there in a second trial, I'm beginning
16:57
Speaker 2: to see I am, and some bisure your trouble.
17:02
Speaker 1: Let's talk about your defense. Your attorney, Ridy Robert Hampy,
17:06
Speaker 1: who had been with you now for quite some time
17:07
Speaker 1: through the first trial and the second trial. Yes, he
17:10
Speaker 1: had an almost impossible task because how do you cross
17:13
Speaker 1: examine a traumatized, terrified little girl who's lost her mother
17:19
Speaker 1: and almost lost her own life as well as seeing
17:21
Speaker 1: her sister savagely attacked. I don't know how you go
17:24
Speaker 1: about doing that, but how did he attempt to because
17:27
Speaker 1: she was really the whole case, right.
17:30
Speaker 2: Right, I think as I look back on it now,
17:35
Speaker 2: his whole line of attack. He hought mostly on the
17:41
Speaker 2: inconsistencies of his statements, trying to get it to repeat
17:47
Speaker 2: the different things that she had said in the past
17:51
Speaker 2: that was not exactly it's supposed to be. Now, as
17:56
Speaker 2: I look back on it now, I almost feel like
17:59
Speaker 2: he founding her.
18:02
Speaker 1: Well, that could backfire as well, because I mean, he
18:05
Speaker 1: had to walk a tightrope, and it sounds like he
18:06
Speaker 1: didn't do it very well. But he literally was in
18:09
Speaker 1: between a rock and a hard place, because the jury's
18:12
Speaker 1: not going to want to see him being anything other
18:14
Speaker 1: than gentle so to speak to this child. But he
18:18
Speaker 1: had your life on the line, and the only way
18:21
Speaker 1: to get you out of this at this point was
18:23
Speaker 1: to undermine her testimony, which, as of course, turns out
18:25
Speaker 1: all those years later to have been false. Okay, So
18:28
Speaker 1: then we get to the closing argument, and in the
18:30
Speaker 1: state's closing argument, they didn't really focus on the hair sample. Rather,
18:35
Speaker 1: they kept harping on little Melissa's testimony, noting that Renee
18:40
Speaker 1: was too young to testify and stating that Melissa quote
18:43
Speaker 1: bore the responsibility for the three of them to tell
18:46
Speaker 1: you what happened that night. Whoa. And then they recapped
18:51
Speaker 1: Melissa's identification of you, Rodney, And I'd say at that
18:54
Speaker 1: point your fate was probably more or less sealed. I mean,
18:57
Speaker 1: these are people on the jury, these are normal people, well,
19:00
Speaker 1: who are listening to this testimony, this child, and who
19:04
Speaker 1: want to get justice for her and her mom and
19:06
Speaker 1: her sister and the family. And so I think that
19:09
Speaker 1: that's going to cloud their judgment. And while they may
19:12
Speaker 1: have had real doubts as to your guilt, at this point,
19:15
Speaker 1: the human instinct is depended on somebody, right. So how
19:19
Speaker 1: long did they deliberate for the second trial?
19:22
Speaker 2: They was out I think about two a half hours well.
19:27
Speaker 1: It's not very long at all. And when they came
19:30
Speaker 1: back in, did you still hold out hope or did you,
19:33
Speaker 1: as you said before, you knew you were in serious
19:35
Speaker 1: trouble and you basically resigned yourself to the idea that
19:38
Speaker 1: these people were going to come back and render a
19:40
Speaker 1: Guilly verdict.
19:41
Speaker 2: No, no, I fell felt that they're going to get
19:45
Speaker 2: it right. They come back and say, look, we can't
19:50
Speaker 2: find enough everything.
19:51
Speaker 1: Convict this guy, and you would go home and try
19:55
Speaker 1: to piece your life back together again. But unfortunately that
19:59
Speaker 1: was not to be so Rodney. When the jury came
20:02
Speaker 1: back in, what was that moment like when they convicted
20:05
Speaker 1: you and sentenced you to life in prison plus fifteen
20:09
Speaker 1: years for a crime you had nothing to do with.
20:13
Speaker 2: I find it very hard to describe that feeling. It
20:16
Speaker 2: was just like everything inside of me was yanked out.
20:22
Speaker 2: Nothing there but the shell. At that time. I was
20:40
Speaker 2: taken to the Madrid State Penitentiary in Jefferson City. When
20:46
Speaker 2: I arrived, I was taken to a large room with
20:52
Speaker 2: a bunch of other people. We were stripped down, got
20:57
Speaker 2: into a shire where we were strayed like cattle. I
21:04
Speaker 2: was designed to two house at the Jafferton City Penitentiary.
21:10
Speaker 2: Once I got there, it was a living nightmare. I
21:16
Speaker 2: was always looking over my shoulder do anything or going anywhere,
21:23
Speaker 2: and remained that way for just about for ten years.
21:29
Speaker 1: And meanwhile, you're enduring these archaic and barbaric prison conditions
21:36
Speaker 1: while being handed one devastating disappointment after another from the courts.
21:42
Speaker 1: And by that I mean that in nineteen eighty six,
21:45
Speaker 1: your wrongful conviction was upheld on direct appeal, and then
21:49
Speaker 1: the motion for post conviction relief was denied two years
21:52
Speaker 1: later in nineteen eighty eight. But a crucial breakthrough came
21:56
Speaker 1: in two thousand and three when the Saint Louis, Missouri
21:58
Speaker 1: Circuit Attorney's Office or a Justice Project to review old
22:01
Speaker 1: convictions and chose your case to review out of fourteen
22:04
Speaker 1: hundred old cases. And here I'd like to turn back
22:07
Speaker 1: to your daughter, k because she plays an absolutely crucial
22:11
Speaker 1: role in what happens next. It's okay, can you take
22:14
Speaker 1: us through this.
22:15
Speaker 3: It was June fifth, two thousand and three. I got
22:18
Speaker 3: off work that evening and I stopped by my mom's
22:21
Speaker 3: house and I walked in the door and she was
22:24
Speaker 3: just finishing watching the news, and she said, your dad
22:27
Speaker 3: maybe out in a couple weeks. And I said, you're crazy,
22:31
Speaker 3: what are you talking about. She said, they just showed
22:34
Speaker 3: his picture on the news and they said they're reviewing
22:36
Speaker 3: his case. So the next morning I called down to
22:40
Speaker 3: the Circuit Attorney's office and I asked them is this true?
22:43
Speaker 3: Is he one of the cases? And they verified that yes,
22:46
Speaker 3: this was one of the cases that they were looking at.
22:49
Speaker 3: And so I started a communication with the man who
22:52
Speaker 3: was in charge of doing this review, and through the
22:55
Speaker 3: course of our communication, they said, well, we can't find
22:58
Speaker 3: the transcripts. We can't get a hold of the trains.
23:01
Speaker 3: So I tracked them down. I went to the Court
23:04
Speaker 3: of Appeals and I purchased the transcripts from them. It
23:07
Speaker 3: was like twelve hundred dollars to get these transcripts. I
23:10
Speaker 3: made copies and took them down to the Circuit Attorney's
23:13
Speaker 3: office and said here you go, get busy, you know.
23:17
Speaker 3: So as they're doing their review, I'm rereading these transcripts myself,
23:23
Speaker 3: and I'm just getting blown away by the things that
23:25
Speaker 3: I'm seeing. Because my aunt had an original copy of
23:30
Speaker 3: Melissa's deposition from back in nineteen eighty two, so I'm
23:33
Speaker 3: comparing Melissa's deposition to things that were said in trial,
23:38
Speaker 3: and I'm like, well, this isn't even jiving. It's not
23:41
Speaker 3: making sense. So then I thought, well, I need to
23:44
Speaker 3: see these police reports. So I requested the police reports,
23:48
Speaker 3: and it took forever to get them. The police department
23:52
Speaker 3: did not want to give them to me. Now I'm
23:55
Speaker 3: reading them and I'm freaking out because there's so much
23:59
Speaker 3: information here. The more I read, the more I need
24:01
Speaker 3: to find more, you know. So I'm like, I need
24:04
Speaker 3: this lineup photo. And I had to fight and fight
24:08
Speaker 3: to get the lineup photo. I finally got that and
24:10
Speaker 3: I was just blown away. I don't know if you've
24:14
Speaker 3: seen it, but it's incredible.
24:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, it really is. I mean, the suggested nature,
24:19
Speaker 1: the whole thing. You know, there's these huge dudes with
24:22
Speaker 1: long hair and your dad's got short hair and a
24:26
Speaker 1: lighter build.
24:27
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's almost like a joke. So I got the
24:31
Speaker 3: lineup photo. I'm reading trial transcripts and police reports and
24:35
Speaker 3: I'm like, oh, well, there's more depositions somewhere. So I
24:38
Speaker 3: go back down to the courts and I request all
24:40
Speaker 3: the depositions and I'm reading through them and one really
24:45
Speaker 3: got my attention. There was a criminologist I guess by
24:47
Speaker 3: the name of John Salmone, and in his deposition he
24:51
Speaker 3: states that he identified a fingerprint on the knife as
24:56
Speaker 3: my dad's and I'm like, wait a minute, that never
24:59
Speaker 3: came up in I guess. It was my dad's attorney
25:02
Speaker 3: who was doing the deposition, and he said, are you
25:05
Speaker 3: aware of a man named George bone Break? And Detective
25:09
Speaker 3: Salmone said yes, he was a fingerprint analysis expert at
25:13
Speaker 3: the FBI, And so the attorney asks him, are you
25:17
Speaker 3: aware that this print was sent to George bone Break
25:20
Speaker 3: for evaluation. They go off the record, come back on
25:24
Speaker 3: the record, and he states that he is no longer
25:28
Speaker 3: willing to testify that that is Rodney Lincoln's fingerprint unless
25:32
Speaker 3: George bone Break testifies that it's Rodney Lincoln's fingerprint. Well,
25:37
Speaker 3: what happened was the police department had sent that print
25:40
Speaker 3: to bone Break to try to get confirmation of it
25:43
Speaker 3: being his. Bone Break gave them back a report saying no,
25:46
Speaker 3: it's not his fingerprint, and he actually offered to testify
25:50
Speaker 3: for the defense, but wanted like one thousand dollars or
25:54
Speaker 3: something that they didn't have to pay him. So you
25:58
Speaker 3: had a detective who says this is his fingerprint and
26:01
Speaker 3: absolutely knows it's not, and that was never brought up
26:05
Speaker 3: at trial. Dad's attorney and the prosecutor agreed to a
26:09
Speaker 3: stipulation that neither one of them would bring that print
26:12
Speaker 3: up at trial. And I was like, why in the
26:14
Speaker 3: hell would his attorney not bring that up.
26:17
Speaker 1: So this investigation into your dad's conviction by this circuit attorney, well,
26:21
Speaker 1: in April two thousand and four, they decided to close
26:24
Speaker 1: it down right. They said they couldn't locate the fingernail
26:28
Speaker 1: scrapings from Joanne from the attacker and couldn't provide any
26:32
Speaker 1: conclusive proof with the hair, so they wouldn't be doing
26:34
Speaker 1: any further investigation or testing. I mean, I can't imagine
26:39
Speaker 1: how that would have felt. What did you do? What
26:42
Speaker 1: were you thinking? Then?
26:44
Speaker 3: I'm like, wait a minute, I've got way too much
26:47
Speaker 3: information now in the past ten months, somebody's going to
26:51
Speaker 3: do something. You might be finished, but I'm not, and.
26:54
Speaker 1: You weren't, and we're about to get into that. I mean, Rodney,
26:58
Speaker 1: you have to be so proud of cam Damn. I'm
27:00
Speaker 1: proud of k and without her we probably wouldn't even
27:04
Speaker 1: be having this conversation right now.
27:07
Speaker 2: Absolutely, it would be a hold up. Was straight than
27:11
Speaker 2: what I am today, It's not. For she gathered all
27:14
Speaker 2: the information and did all the legwork and did a
27:19
Speaker 2: lot of the investigation. Contacted a guy by the name
27:23
Speaker 2: of Steve Weinberg who was a journalist at the Columbia
27:29
Speaker 2: School of Journalists. He was also the founder of the
27:33
Speaker 2: Midwest Entrance. CAE made contact with him and he used
27:40
Speaker 2: my case with his journalists students and allowed them to
27:45
Speaker 2: investigate my case and they came up with a lot
27:49
Speaker 2: of the information that we have today.
27:52
Speaker 1: So it's now twenty ten, so this ordeal has now
27:56
Speaker 1: been going on for more than a quarter century. In ten,
28:00
Speaker 1: DNA testing that the Midwest intern Project had fought for
28:04
Speaker 1: was approved and samples from the crime scene were tested,
28:07
Speaker 1: and of course the results did not match you, Rodney.
28:10
Speaker 1: And then MIP filed to have you released, but the
28:13
Speaker 1: motion was supposed and Circuit Court Judge Robin Vanoy ruled
28:18
Speaker 1: that the DNA results were not enough to exonerate you, Rodney.
28:22
Speaker 1: I mean, how did it feel to you when you
28:24
Speaker 1: were aware that the DNA had exculpated you?
28:26
Speaker 2: Right?
28:26
Speaker 1: And yet the courts are saying, and we're not buying
28:30
Speaker 1: that DNA stuff.
28:31
Speaker 2: Well, what we were told that DNA on the hair
28:38
Speaker 2: was not enough to release me because they still had
28:43
Speaker 2: the eye witnestemony.
28:45
Speaker 1: Right. So in twenty fourteen, we come to a crucial
28:48
Speaker 1: turning point in this case, and that brings us to
28:50
Speaker 1: this awful character in this story today. And we've heard
28:54
Speaker 1: his name on the show before. I'm talking about serial
28:57
Speaker 1: killer Tommy lynz Sells, And so I reached out out
29:00
Speaker 1: to a fascinating person whose investigative work into just how
29:03
Speaker 1: many innocent people were in prison for murders that were
29:06
Speaker 1: actually committed by Tommy Lindzels led him to start several
29:09
Speaker 1: organizations in different states, including the Illinois Innosons Project. By
29:13
Speaker 1: the way, just to give you an idea of how
29:14
Speaker 1: many murders and wrawful convictions for which cells is responsible.
29:18
Speaker 1: Julie Ray, who's been on the show herb whitlock you Rodney,
29:22
Speaker 1: of course, And we're not even scratching the surface. So
29:25
Speaker 1: in speaking with this investigator, he gives us a look
29:28
Speaker 1: inside his journey into the murderous career of Tommy lin Sells,
29:32
Speaker 1: starting with the wrawful conviction of Randy's Steidle and how
29:35
Speaker 1: that unfolds into Rodney's case.
29:39
Speaker 4: My name is Bill Clutter. I'm a private investigator. Twenty
29:42
Speaker 4: years ago, I started the Illinois Innocence Project in Springfield, Illinois.
29:46
Speaker 4: I was involved in the case of Rady' Stidel, who
29:49
Speaker 4: spent most of his seventeen years on death row. You know,
29:52
Speaker 4: in twenty fourteen, although Stidl Whitlock were free, they still
29:56
Speaker 4: hadn't had their names cleared, and so I filed a
30:00
Speaker 4: affidavit detailing all the crimes of Tommy lyn Cells. So
30:04
Speaker 4: part of those details included his modus apperende were in
30:08
Speaker 4: many of his cases. He would strike at four am,
30:11
Speaker 4: take knives from the kitchen where he would stab his
30:15
Speaker 4: victims to death. But it was the details of the
30:18
Speaker 4: Dardine case that was in my affidavit that caught the
30:21
Speaker 4: attention of an attorney in Rhode Island, Jen Fitzgerald. She
30:26
Speaker 4: reached out to me and asked if I was aware
30:28
Speaker 4: of the Rodney Lincoln case. When she started telling me
30:30
Speaker 4: the details, that the murder happened at four am, a
30:34
Speaker 4: knife from the kitchen was used, that it happened in
30:38
Speaker 4: Saint Louis, where I knew that Tommy Lynzell's family moved
30:42
Speaker 4: around February of nineteen eighty two. That was significant because
30:45
Speaker 4: it gives Cell's opportunity to have committed the murder of
30:50
Speaker 4: Joanne Tate. And here he was only seventeen at the time,
30:53
Speaker 4: and this would have been one of his very early
30:56
Speaker 4: murders that he committed, and all of the factors of
31:00
Speaker 4: that case are identical to many of his other cases.
31:04
Speaker 4: Four Am Knife from the Kitchen, And it so happened
31:07
Speaker 4: that crime watched daily it was a new syndicated crime show,
31:12
Speaker 4: reached out and was interested in doing a story about
31:14
Speaker 4: my investigation linking Cells to the murder of Joanne Tate.
31:20
Speaker 4: It was that show when it aired in November of
31:22
Speaker 4: twenty fifteen that triggered the recantation of Melissa Debore. When
31:28
Speaker 4: she saw the images of Tommy Lynn Cells, she had
31:32
Speaker 4: a flashback and this visceral reaction and she reached out
31:39
Speaker 4: to Kay Lincoln on social media that your dad is innocent,
31:43
Speaker 4: Tommy lynz Cells killed my mother.
31:47
Speaker 1: Well, it sure checks out because when you look at
31:50
Speaker 1: the grotesque details of Missus Ruby Dardine's murder, and again,
31:55
Speaker 1: brace yourself because this is grotesque, but Missus Dardean's body
32:01
Speaker 1: was found next to her three year old son and
32:04
Speaker 1: newborn baby. Now, Tommy lind Sells was a hitman for
32:08
Speaker 1: hire as well as just seemed like he just enjoyed violence,
32:12
Speaker 1: like it was his sort of weird kick, and this
32:15
Speaker 1: case appears to be one of the hired variety because
32:19
Speaker 1: it's believed that the mafia actually hired him to brutalize
32:23
Speaker 1: the Dardines. The husband, Keith, in particular, was made to
32:26
Speaker 1: watch his family be physically destroyed. Tommy lind Sells had
32:30
Speaker 1: waited for Ruby's husband Keith to come home, and during
32:33
Speaker 1: this time, Ruby gave birth to her baby. Oh my god,
32:37
Speaker 1: I'm gonna cry. And Keith was found a while away,
32:40
Speaker 1: shot execution style with his penis severed and stuffed into
32:45
Speaker 1: his mouth. I mean, and his wife Ruby was found
32:50
Speaker 1: And this is important. Again, cover your ears if you're squeamish,
32:54
Speaker 1: But this is important because it relates back to the
32:57
Speaker 1: circumstances surrounding the tape murder. Missus Dardine was found with
33:02
Speaker 1: a baseball bat protruding from her vagina, so this was
33:06
Speaker 1: this sick bastard's mo After Melissa reached out to Kay
33:11
Speaker 1: on Facebook, and Midwest Insis Project shifted their attention to
33:15
Speaker 1: Tommy but in cells. At some point, Melissa learned that you, Rodney,
33:18
Speaker 1: were left handed, unlike the man who killed her mom
33:21
Speaker 1: and attacked her. So on November twenty eight, twenty fifteen, Melissa,
33:28
Speaker 1: now a grown woman, well into her I guess forties
33:31
Speaker 1: now from that nine year old girl who testified a
33:34
Speaker 1: seven year old girl that had been attacked. She recanted
33:37
Speaker 1: her testimony against Rodney Lincoln. She said, and this is
33:41
Speaker 1: a direct quote, Rodney Lincoln did not kill my mom.
33:45
Speaker 1: He did not attempt to kill my sister and I
33:48
Speaker 1: it was Tommy Lynn Sells. When the veil fell from
33:51
Speaker 1: my eyes, I was horrified. I have kept an innocent
33:54
Speaker 1: man in prison for thirty four years. I did not
33:58
Speaker 1: know I was wrong, but I was and realizing it
34:01
Speaker 1: is so painful. When I saw a picture of Tommy
34:04
Speaker 1: wind says, I had a horrible, horrible feeling. And when
34:08
Speaker 1: I think about that terrible night, I now see how
34:11
Speaker 1: I could have gotten mixed up. This is all I
34:14
Speaker 1: can really say right now. End quote.
34:18
Speaker 2: I learned about that again through my daughter. She came
34:22
Speaker 2: up to visit me and when she told me that
34:27
Speaker 2: she talked to Melissa and Milita was going to recant
34:32
Speaker 2: whose statement, we laughed. Replied, I felt, at last, it's
34:39
Speaker 2: finally ending. Then, after Melissa actually went through the prosecutor's office,
34:47
Speaker 2: I was told how Melissa was treated like she couldn't
34:53
Speaker 2: possibly be right after thirty years, saying that she yet
35:02
Speaker 2: they don't have any trouble believing her when she was seving.
35:07
Speaker 2: That amazed me.
35:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems backwards and upside down and inside out
35:13
Speaker 1: and everything right. And it's amazing how they can just
35:16
Speaker 1: believe what they want to believe when they want to
35:17
Speaker 1: believe it, and then discount it when it doesn't match
35:20
Speaker 1: exactly what they want the narrative to be. I can't
35:23
Speaker 1: leave out that this poor poor woman, Melissa, is now
35:28
Speaker 1: being re traumatized as she learns that she had been
35:32
Speaker 1: lied to by the people who were sworn to protect
35:36
Speaker 1: and serve her, and who, as a child who had
35:39
Speaker 1: just lost her mother, must have been just imagine clinging
35:42
Speaker 1: onto anyone, any grown up that you think might be
35:45
Speaker 1: able to help you, and to have been betrayed, and
35:48
Speaker 1: then to as she said so eloquently in such a
35:52
Speaker 1: heartfelt manner to now have to live with this awful
35:56
Speaker 1: feeling that she was responsible for putting a man who
35:59
Speaker 1: had nothing to do with it in prison for I mean, Jesus,
36:03
Speaker 1: you served almost four decades in prison, and now the
36:06
Speaker 1: state is refusing to listen to her. But she wasn't
36:09
Speaker 1: done yet. December twenty fifteen, Melissa went and met with
36:13
Speaker 1: the Saint Louis Prosecuting Attorney's officers declare her recantation. And
36:17
Speaker 1: she even came to meet you in prison to ask
36:19
Speaker 1: for your forgiveness.
36:20
Speaker 2: I mean, I told her that there was nothing to
36:24
Speaker 2: forgive her far if she didn't do anything. She was manipulated, collers,
36:31
Speaker 2: guided and tricked. I couldn't forgive there was anything to
36:38
Speaker 2: forgive her for if she was in it. We did
36:43
Speaker 2: the hug, We tried, we laughed. When she first walked
36:50
Speaker 2: up to me, she just kept saying I'm sorry, I'm sorry,
36:55
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, and I kept down there's nothing to be charged, boy,
37:02
Speaker 2: you didn't do anything. It was a moment. I can't
37:09
Speaker 2: really describe how I felt. It was a moment that
37:14
Speaker 2: I would cherish the rest of my life.
37:33
Speaker 1: I'm always at a loss for words when I hear
37:36
Speaker 1: these stories. What I read is that what you said
37:39
Speaker 1: to her when she begged for your forgiveness was I
37:42
Speaker 1: have nothing to forgive you for you are completely blame nous.
37:47
Speaker 1: I thank you for your courage, but you only have
37:49
Speaker 1: my love, not any anger from me. I'm so sorry
37:53
Speaker 1: for you and for losing your mom. Well, that's probably
37:58
Speaker 1: exactly what she needed to here and probably exactly what
38:01
Speaker 1: you need to get off your chest. And then things
38:04
Speaker 1: started to roll. Even though there was still one more
38:07
Speaker 1: major speed bump ahead right, which is out of twenty seventeen.
38:12
Speaker 1: Despite the DNA evidence and the sole eyewitness both on
38:16
Speaker 1: your side, your case was still denied a review by
38:20
Speaker 1: the Missouri Supreme Court. I mean, like, like what I mean,
38:25
Speaker 1: what was your reaction to that?
38:28
Speaker 2: Well, by the time I'm being getting to understand they
38:34
Speaker 2: are perfect, court system isn't so perfect. The decision of
38:39
Speaker 2: the appeals court that innocence isn't enough to free a
38:46
Speaker 2: person unless they have the death penalty that flowed me,
38:53
Speaker 2: and then the Supreme Court wouldn't even hear the case.
38:58
Speaker 2: He separately den I to hear it.
39:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't make any sense, Like what deny it
39:05
Speaker 1: on what basis? But you're here today. And that's because
39:09
Speaker 1: remarkably Governor Briton's certainly not a criminal justice reformer, stepped
39:15
Speaker 1: in and commuted your sentence into the twenty eighteen and
39:19
Speaker 1: you were immediately released, not pardon, by the way, and
39:22
Speaker 1: so you're still living as a convicted murderer, which is insane.
39:26
Speaker 2: You know, I wonder about that today. I didn't find
39:32
Speaker 2: out about this until around ten thirty the morning of
39:37
Speaker 2: the day that I left. They came and got me
39:40
Speaker 2: and told me I had to go up front and
39:44
Speaker 2: wait for a call from the governor. The phone rang,
39:49
Speaker 2: and I was sitting in the office at time. Manager
39:53
Speaker 2: Aim through the phone and he and the phone to me.
39:57
Speaker 2: I say, hello, boy, says is this Ridney Lincoln. I said, yes,
40:03
Speaker 2: it is. He said, someone here wants to speak to you.
40:07
Speaker 2: He is the governor of the state of Missouri. And
40:10
Speaker 2: then governor comes on, he says Rodney, I said, yes, sir.
40:15
Speaker 2: He said, I just wanted to call and tell you
40:17
Speaker 2: that I'm commuting your sentence to time served. The only
40:22
Speaker 2: thing I could think of at that moment would thank you.
40:27
Speaker 2: And then the governor told me, Ridney, I want you
40:31
Speaker 2: spend the rest of your time building a better community,
40:35
Speaker 2: making this a better country, and God blessed you. And
40:40
Speaker 2: you only I could say was God bless you.
40:43
Speaker 1: That's a short and sweet conversation if I ever heard one.
40:47
Speaker 2: Yes, shut, sweet and at least for me, very powerful.
40:54
Speaker 2: I never left the penitentiary until twenty minutes after six
41:00
Speaker 2: that evening, and I walked out. My two daughters and
41:05
Speaker 2: my grandson and two of my attorneys were there to
41:10
Speaker 2: meet me.
41:11
Speaker 1: Rodney, I got to ask, what was that like? Like you,
41:14
Speaker 1: I'm talking about your first steps out as a free
41:18
Speaker 1: man into free air after so many long years in prison.
41:23
Speaker 2: You know today everything's virtual, and it's kind of way
41:28
Speaker 2: I felt there. I didn't you know, happened virtually. This
41:33
Speaker 2: isn't real.
41:34
Speaker 1: So you felt like it was a dream.
41:37
Speaker 2: Absolutely very good, one better dream.
41:40
Speaker 1: And then what did you do? So a lot of
41:42
Speaker 1: hugs and tears, I'm sure, and laughing.
41:46
Speaker 2: We uh tried laugh. I have a very emotional family.
41:53
Speaker 2: One of the things that I remember so vividly is
41:56
Speaker 2: I remember telling my daughter how much better the sunshine
42:02
Speaker 2: felt outside of the prison from the way it did
42:06
Speaker 2: on the inside.
42:08
Speaker 1: What a day man. And meanwhile, that was back in
42:11
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen and it's now twenty twenty two, so this
42:16
Speaker 1: is a little more than three and a half years ago,
42:19
Speaker 1: and I understand that you have been traveling the country
42:23
Speaker 1: speaking about your experience courageously and advocating to try to
42:28
Speaker 1: help prevent others from going through the same nightmare that
42:31
Speaker 1: you went through. There's a wonderful quote that I read
42:34
Speaker 1: from you that said, just the fact that I could
42:36
Speaker 1: possibly help someone that was the same position that I
42:39
Speaker 1: was in, if I could do something today that makes
42:41
Speaker 1: me a better person or help someone else, It's been
42:44
Speaker 1: a good day. That's awesome. You're awesome, man. That's all
42:47
Speaker 1: I can say about that. So how's life been these
42:50
Speaker 1: three and a half years of freedom?
42:53
Speaker 2: Fantastically amazing would almost cover it. Since I've been out,
43:00
Speaker 2: I've been on several vacations, did some deep sea fati,
43:07
Speaker 2: did some pair of gliding, rode the pirate ship. I
43:12
Speaker 2: jumped out of a perfectly good airplane twice.
43:17
Speaker 1: Amazing.
43:18
Speaker 2: I'm using this time to learn more about myself as
43:25
Speaker 2: well as the people around me. I was away and
43:30
Speaker 2: a lot of things you just lose touch of, and
43:33
Speaker 2: I'm trying to regain that tightness and family bonds. I
43:41
Speaker 2: try and keep in touch with many of the guys
43:45
Speaker 2: back at the prisoners I can by email. Since it
43:50
Speaker 2: COVID hit, I've been able to do much speaking advocating.
43:58
Speaker 2: Tend to continue with that, Well.
44:01
Speaker 1: We need you out there, and we need you on here.
44:03
Speaker 1: And the good news. You know, one hundred thousand plus
44:05
Speaker 1: people will hear this podcast and hear your thoughts that
44:09
Speaker 1: you've shared with us so generously. It's been an honor
44:12
Speaker 1: for me to have the chance to interview you here today.
44:16
Speaker 1: You are an inspiration and for people who want to
44:20
Speaker 1: help Rodney as he hopefully lives another twenty thirty years
44:26
Speaker 1: and as he continues to do his good work. There's
44:28
Speaker 1: a GoFundMe. Just go to the link in our bio.
44:32
Speaker 1: We'll have it posted right there for you. One click,
44:35
Speaker 1: donate five dollars, five hundred thousand dollars, whatever you want,
44:39
Speaker 1: anything you can spare to help Rodney. You can also
44:43
Speaker 1: learn even more about this case on a podcast called
44:45
Speaker 1: The Real Killer. It's a twelve episode series and this
44:48
Speaker 1: case certainly has a lot of layers to it. And
44:50
Speaker 1: then Rodney, we now turn to the closing the show,
44:53
Speaker 1: which we call closing Arguments. It works like this I'm
44:57
Speaker 1: going to turn off my microphone, kick back in my chair,
45:01
Speaker 1: turn the volume up, and leave my headphones on, and
45:04
Speaker 1: just listen to any thoughts you want to share that
45:07
Speaker 1: we haven't already covered.
45:09
Speaker 2: As far as my case, I think recovered that the
45:15
Speaker 2: lay and I certainly appreciate you giving me this opportunity.
45:23
Speaker 2: One thing that I would like to share is Melissa
45:29
Speaker 2: is trying to get re established here in Saint Louis,
45:35
Speaker 2: and there's a go fund me for her to help
45:39
Speaker 2: her raise money for housing. If you would go to that,
45:45
Speaker 2: go from me and help Melussa out. She's having a
45:52
Speaker 2: pretty rough time right now if you need some help,
45:55
Speaker 2: and by helping her that would help me.
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Speaker 1: That's beautiful. We'll also have the go fund me for Melissa,
46:04
Speaker 1: who you've heard so much about in this episode. We'll
46:06
Speaker 1: have it posted in our bio as well, So go there,
46:10
Speaker 1: click on that. Rodney. What a generous and wonderful spirit
46:13
Speaker 1: you are. Thanks again for sharing your thoughts with us.
46:17
Speaker 2: Thank you again for having me.
46:25
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to
46:28
Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Justin Golden, Jeff Cliburn,
46:32
Speaker 1: and Kevin Wartis with research by Lyla Robinson. The music
46:36
Speaker 1: in this production was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated
46:39
Speaker 1: composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram
46:42
Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and
46:47
Speaker 1: on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava
46:50
Speaker 1: for Good. On all three platforms, you can also follow
46:53
Speaker 1: me on both TikTok and Instagram at it's Jason Flam.
46:57
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction is the production of Lava for Good podcas
47:00
Speaker 1: as an association with Signal Company Number one