Latest / The Trauma Therapist / From the archives: Damon Wood, PhD. Healing Inside A Prison

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From the archives: Damon Wood, PhD. Healing Inside A Prison · The Trauma Therapist

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Speaker 1: Are today we even another episode from the archives with
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Speaker 1: one of my incredible guests. Enjoy Welcome to the Trauma
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Speaker 1: Devers's podcast, a show about the incredible people dedicated to
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Speaker 1: helping those of experienced trauma. My name is Got macpherson
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Speaker 1: and my mission is to raise awareness of trauma and
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Speaker 1: to inspire each of us to help those around us.
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Speaker 1: All right, guys, welcome back to the Trauma Depress podcast.
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Speaker 1: Very excited to have back today, Doctor Damon Wood.
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Speaker 2: Damon welcome, good morning, good to be back. All right. So,
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Speaker 2: Damon was my guest back on episode three hundred and
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Speaker 2: seventy of the Trauma Epists podcast in which we talked
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Speaker 2: about safety, creating safety within the context of working in
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Speaker 2: a prison. So forth today are we going to talk
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Speaker 2: about Well, I'll let Damon describe more about what we
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Speaker 2: talk about, but let me just give you some context here.
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Speaker 2: Damon has held an interest in trauma focused therapy since
0:59
Speaker 2: his graduate educing. He's completed trainings in censory motor psycotherapy,
1:03
Speaker 2: and internal family systems as well as DBT. Since two
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Speaker 2: thousand and nine, Dr Wood has worked for the State
1:09
Speaker 2: of California in forensic institutions including NAPA State Hospital and
1:13
Speaker 2: for California State Prisons, where he's provided treatment to the
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Speaker 2: severely mentally ill, the severely behavioral challenged, and the severely traumatized.
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Speaker 2: Twy fifteen, doctor Wood was promoted to the Mental Health
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Speaker 2: Leadership Team at Salinas Valley State Prison, where he's led
1:28
Speaker 2: teams as clinicians to provide treatment in one of the
1:30
Speaker 2: state's most violent maximum security prisons. In this role in setting,
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Speaker 2: Dr Wood is champion trauma formed organizational support with the
1:37
Speaker 2: clinical staff that work in such a stressful and difficult environment.
1:40
Speaker 2: All right, damon, welcome back.
1:43
Speaker 3: Good to be back.
1:44
Speaker 2: So we had you know, last time we talked, I mean,
1:47
Speaker 2: it was clear that there was not enough time. I
1:49
Speaker 2: mean there were so many avenues that we could have
1:52
Speaker 2: gone down, and a lot that I think we wanted to,
1:56
Speaker 2: and we decided that we talked today about you know
2:00
Speaker 2: what I mean, kind of the elephant in the room
2:03
Speaker 2: is what is it like to work in this type
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Speaker 2: of setting? So let's let's kind of dive in here.
2:09
Speaker 2: Where would you like to start?
2:11
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think.
2:13
Speaker 4: I think this podcast episode specifically, we wanted to kind
2:17
Speaker 4: of look at working within the prison setting more broadly.
2:22
Speaker 4: Last time I was with you. I was kind of
2:23
Speaker 4: talking about working in that context as a supervisor and
2:28
Speaker 4: providing support to the line staff. But I think this
2:33
Speaker 4: episode might be interesting to really just kind of focus
2:35
Speaker 4: on what's it like working in a prison, right right?
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Speaker 2: Okay, so let's if we can start. Let's kind of
2:44
Speaker 2: start with you. How the heck did you land there
2:48
Speaker 2: in the first place.
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Speaker 4: That's a great question. You know, it was not my
2:52
Speaker 4: ambition to work in the prison setting. I ended up
2:56
Speaker 4: working in the prison system because after I got graduated
3:00
Speaker 4: and got my PhD, you know, I needed a postdoc
3:04
Speaker 4: and I needed to get paid. It was two thousand
3:08
Speaker 4: and nine, and so it was right during the throes
3:11
Speaker 4: of the Great Recession. I had bills to pay, I
3:15
Speaker 4: had student loan debt, and I had been working at
3:19
Speaker 4: a predoctoral internship that provided no stipend at all. And
3:23
Speaker 4: so I was looking around, and at that time, the
3:28
Speaker 4: prison setting was by far the best employer financially for
3:33
Speaker 4: a postdoctoral intern. You know, it's still pretty competitive. I
3:40
Speaker 4: haven't actually done any research on that, so I don't know.
3:45
Speaker 4: You know, back then, the nearest I applied for a
3:49
Speaker 4: position and it was up in San Francisco, which and
3:54
Speaker 4: they were offering less than half of what the prison
3:57
Speaker 4: setting was offering with no benefits. So as a postdoctoral intern,
4:01
Speaker 4: it was a really great job and I think it
4:04
Speaker 4: still is because you get your hours, you get benefits,
4:09
Speaker 4: you get paid vacation, you get all of that. You
4:11
Speaker 4: get a At that time, the salary for a postdoc
4:16
Speaker 4: intern was equivalent to the salary for a licensed psychologist
4:20
Speaker 4: at Kaiser.
4:22
Speaker 3: So that sense changed.
4:24
Speaker 4: I know Kaiser has dramatically increased their compensation for psychologists,
4:29
Speaker 4: but I believe it is still very competitive for post docs.
4:34
Speaker 2: Okay, right, right, okay, I remember that, all right.
4:37
Speaker 4: Yeah, So it was really just it was just purely
4:41
Speaker 4: economics for me at that point. But then once I
4:44
Speaker 4: got in there, I actually found it to be really
4:46
Speaker 4: quite fascinating. And you know, ten years later here I
4:48
Speaker 4: am so right.
4:49
Speaker 2: Right, Well, what just briefly, what about was was fascinating
4:55
Speaker 2: for you.
4:55
Speaker 4: It's, you know, it's a completely different world, and it's
5:00
Speaker 4: you have access to a population of patients that you
5:04
Speaker 4: would never otherwise have access to, and so sometimes that
5:11
Speaker 4: can be really fascinating. It's also, you know, one of
5:15
Speaker 4: the things that I think can be really rewarding working
5:18
Speaker 4: in the prison setting is it's kind of like, you know,
5:22
Speaker 4: you're in the desert and you're bringing water to the
5:26
Speaker 4: desert almost because there's so much need there. There's you know,
5:31
Speaker 4: there's these people who really have never had much, if
5:36
Speaker 4: any mental health treatment. And it's also a bit I
5:42
Speaker 4: think it can be a little bit challenging just internally
5:46
Speaker 4: for a person because you're working with people who have
5:50
Speaker 4: not only very often suffered from trauma, but have also
5:55
Speaker 4: been perpetrators of trauma. And so that's that's kind of
5:59
Speaker 4: a that can be challenging sometimes, but many times, you know,
6:05
Speaker 4: it's kind of like the there's the same like the
6:09
Speaker 4: the catcher eventually becomes the pitcher, and basically, you know,
6:14
Speaker 4: it's like people who some people who are victims of
6:18
Speaker 4: trauma go on to perpetrate trauma. And so it's kind
6:23
Speaker 4: of like that cycle of violence that or that almost
6:26
Speaker 4: like intergenerational violence that you see.
6:29
Speaker 2: So I would imagine that, you know, having said that,
6:34
Speaker 2: there's a lot that goes on for a clinician. You know,
6:38
Speaker 2: I'm helping, great, I'm helping bringing water to the desert,
6:41
Speaker 2: but who am I bringing water to? You know, this
6:44
Speaker 2: person has done all this stuff, and so how do
6:48
Speaker 2: you negotiate and navigate those seemingly conflicting thoughts and feelings.
6:58
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a that's a big question.
7:02
Speaker 4: I think it's important to kind of have a sense
7:05
Speaker 4: of really what type of crimes are really going to
7:10
Speaker 4: push your buttons. So, for example, you know, clinicians who
7:15
Speaker 4: go in there and who are parents may find that
7:18
Speaker 4: when they're working with inmates who have been convicted of
7:25
Speaker 4: violence against children.
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Speaker 3: You know, that can be.
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Speaker 4: A real a real button that can be really challenging
7:33
Speaker 4: or you know, or whatever the case, you know, your particular.
7:38
Speaker 3: Challenge might be.
7:39
Speaker 4: And so it's it's important to have an awareness so
7:41
Speaker 4: that you can do whatever self care is necessary it
7:46
Speaker 4: can you know, your counter transference can be a very
7:50
Speaker 4: legitimate issue, particularly in that setting. You know, I struggle
7:55
Speaker 4: sometimes because there are times when I really wish that
8:00
Speaker 4: the resources that were being utilized for this population was
8:04
Speaker 4: available to the victims, right, And so that's a whole
8:10
Speaker 4: larger topic around social policy, and so you know, I
8:16
Speaker 4: would love to be able to provide these kind of
8:20
Speaker 4: services to the victims of the people I'm currently treating
8:23
Speaker 4: as well, and maybe someday that might be the case,
8:27
Speaker 4: but but yeah, it's it's something to be mindful of of,
8:31
Speaker 4: just kind of internally of how are you responding to
8:34
Speaker 4: to someone who has committed some pretty horrific crimes.
8:40
Speaker 2: You know, on this podcast we talk a lot about
8:46
Speaker 2: goals and like what what what is the goal of
8:49
Speaker 2: the therapist? And granted different therapists have different uh responses
8:55
Speaker 2: to that, but really one of the themes that comes
8:58
Speaker 2: up is, know, a lot of seasoned therapists have talked
9:02
Speaker 2: about the goal is to to you know, be there,
9:05
Speaker 2: be present, be authentic, and allow the clients healing to
9:10
Speaker 2: unfold and not to you know, push and not to
9:15
Speaker 2: be the person who's uh has all the answers and
9:19
Speaker 2: so forth. And I'm curious about, you know, what is
9:23
Speaker 2: the goal of the clinician in that setting? You know,
9:28
Speaker 2: you said, in a sense you're bringing water, But beyond that,
9:33
Speaker 2: what is is the goal to provide what kind of treatment?
9:37
Speaker 2: And granted that probably differs, but.
9:40
Speaker 4: Yeah, so it really depends on within. So I can
9:43
Speaker 4: speak specifically to the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation
9:47
Speaker 4: right cdc R. There are many other correctional systems, both
9:54
Speaker 4: at the county level different states, and then of course
9:56
Speaker 4: they're the federal correctional systems, and so each system have
10:00
Speaker 4: a kind of a different perspective on mental health care.
10:05
Speaker 4: CDCR specifically has been kind of forced to provide mental
10:12
Speaker 4: health care due to a lawsuit what's referred to as
10:15
Speaker 4: Coleman and the Coleman lawsuit has been around for over
10:19
Speaker 4: twenty years and has had a really profound influence on
10:24
Speaker 4: how mental health care is delivered and the type of
10:26
Speaker 4: mental health care that's delivered within the correctional system. So
10:31
Speaker 4: within CDCR, there are different levels of care for mental
10:36
Speaker 4: health and so it kind of depends your goal of
10:38
Speaker 4: treatment is really kind of dependent upon where what level.
10:41
Speaker 3: Of care you're at.
10:42
Speaker 4: So for example, if you're at say the crisis bed,
10:47
Speaker 4: you know that the goal there is really short term stabilization.
10:50
Speaker 4: So someone is psychiatrically really decompensated and you're trying to
10:55
Speaker 4: stabilize them or they might be you know, eminently suicidal,
10:59
Speaker 4: and so you're trying to address that, and typically the
11:02
Speaker 4: turnaround time is within ten days, right, So it's a
11:05
Speaker 4: really kind of short in patient setting. But aside from that,
11:11
Speaker 4: if you're at say like an enhanced outpatient or or
11:15
Speaker 4: the lower, the lowest level of mental health care what's
11:18
Speaker 4: called clinical correctional case management system or correctional clinical case MATAG,
11:27
Speaker 4: which just referred to as triple CMS. But anyways, you know,
11:30
Speaker 4: that's kind of like an outpatient setting where you go
11:32
Speaker 4: and you see your clinician once every few weeks or
11:35
Speaker 4: every couple of months or something like that. So the
11:38
Speaker 4: goals are going to be different depending on the acuity level.
11:42
Speaker 4: But broadly speaking, you know, for me, in addition to
11:47
Speaker 4: like symptom management, the goal for me has always been
11:51
Speaker 4: to kind of help people get in touch with their
11:54
Speaker 4: own humanity. And you know, that's that's kind of what
12:02
Speaker 4: informs my work in many respects. So I would guess
12:05
Speaker 4: I would say, to answer your questions distinctly sent to
12:08
Speaker 4: management and then kind of this larger goal of you know,
12:13
Speaker 4: finding your own humanity, finding helping someone find their humanity,
12:16
Speaker 4: and and then survive prison because prison is not a
12:20
Speaker 4: nurturing and environment.
12:23
Speaker 2: So that sounds I mean that those latter two examples
12:26
Speaker 2: of finding your own humanity and smriting prisons sound pretty involved,
12:31
Speaker 2: pretty intense, and do do quote unquote sessions take place
12:38
Speaker 2: where in a what does the actual setting look like.
12:41
Speaker 3: For those uh wally, it's in your office.
12:45
Speaker 4: Okay, yeah, so you know most we're limited by many
12:51
Speaker 4: times by space. So but typically you know, you might
12:55
Speaker 4: have an office on what's called a yard within and
12:59
Speaker 4: you know your office will be set up so that
13:01
Speaker 4: it's as safe as it can be for the clinician
13:04
Speaker 4: for you. So that means like you know, your seats
13:10
Speaker 4: sitting next to the door, so if you have to
13:11
Speaker 4: make a quick escape, you can. But yeah, typically it'll
13:16
Speaker 4: take place in an office. Now, if it's in the
13:18
Speaker 4: crisis bed, that's a different setup, or if it's in
13:21
Speaker 4: an impatient facility like an impatient hospital within the prison setting,
13:26
Speaker 4: that'll be a different setup. But for the outpatient setting,
13:31
Speaker 4: typically an office.
13:33
Speaker 2: I mean for me, you know, full disclosure here, when
13:36
Speaker 2: I was actually considering doing getting doing prison work, but
13:43
Speaker 2: I was I was too scared to be locked up
13:46
Speaker 2: just see going into a prison and that just freaked
13:51
Speaker 2: me the heck out, it really did. But behind that,
13:57
Speaker 2: how do you personally, you know you're working with like
14:02
Speaker 2: you said, severely uh mentally ill, behaviorally child, how do
14:08
Speaker 2: you how do you how does that affect you impact you?
14:13
Speaker 4: Well, it can be exhausting sometimes, and so I think
14:17
Speaker 4: it's really important to have some some basic self care
14:22
Speaker 4: strategies in place, and so that includes, you know, just
14:27
Speaker 4: just the basics that we talk about. I think with clients,
14:29
Speaker 4: you know, good nutrition, exercise, you know, good sleep habits.
14:37
Speaker 4: You know, a social life where you're that are meaningful relationships.
14:41
Speaker 4: So you're getting fed by your life, and so you
14:47
Speaker 4: have something to recharge your batteries. But you know, after
14:51
Speaker 4: after the end of the week, you know, you're pretty drained.
14:54
Speaker 4: To be honest with you, it's it's can be an
14:57
Speaker 4: intent setting, and it's not forever everyone, right, Some people
15:01
Speaker 4: just they just find they don't like it. I think,
15:06
Speaker 4: you know, the setting needs to be kind of clarified
15:09
Speaker 4: as well to some degree if we can, because it
15:12
Speaker 4: is very different than any other place you might consider working.
15:18
Speaker 4: It's it's it is its own world, and it has
15:20
Speaker 4: its own culture, and it even has to some degree
15:23
Speaker 4: its own language because they use so many acronyms. It's
15:26
Speaker 4: kind of almost like the military in that regard, and
15:29
Speaker 4: it is actually kind of a paramilitary sort of a structure.
15:33
Speaker 4: When you look at custody and you know they have
15:35
Speaker 4: the different you know, sergeant with tenants, captains and that
15:38
Speaker 4: sort of thing, and so, and they're operating kind of
15:41
Speaker 4: in a paramilitary fashion. So so that when you enter
15:47
Speaker 4: a prison system, you know, just learning how of the
15:54
Speaker 4: culture itself takes I was months, you know, I really,
15:59
Speaker 4: I mean I've and doing it now for ten years
16:01
Speaker 4: and I still learn I'm still learning things, but in
16:04
Speaker 4: order to really kind of get a sense of it
16:07
Speaker 4: is it takes a few months to really kind of
16:11
Speaker 4: start to get a feel.
16:12
Speaker 3: For how things work.
16:14
Speaker 4: And the other thing that I think you need to
16:16
Speaker 4: be aware of is that because you're working within a
16:22
Speaker 4: forensic environment with basically convicted felons, right that you have,
16:29
Speaker 4: there's a whole another element at play where there's the
16:35
Speaker 4: potential for gaming. And we're kind of getting off the
16:39
Speaker 4: topic of your question into another topic here, but and
16:45
Speaker 4: what I mean by gaming is that you know, the
16:48
Speaker 4: the inmates sometimes I will try to entrap you into
16:55
Speaker 4: breaking a rule so that they can then have leverage
16:59
Speaker 4: over you, so that they can get you to break
17:03
Speaker 4: an even more significant rule, specifically to bring in contraband.
17:09
Speaker 2: So how might this play out?
17:13
Speaker 4: Well, you know, they can be really sophisticated. It depends,
17:19
Speaker 4: and so you know, the objective ultimately is one of
17:26
Speaker 4: basically two things. It's either contraband or sex. That's what
17:30
Speaker 4: they're looking for, and so they might get try to
17:34
Speaker 4: get you to It has to do with boundary violations,
17:38
Speaker 4: is how it starts. And it starts with minor about
17:41
Speaker 4: boundary violations. And so I think as clinicians, you know,
17:46
Speaker 4: we've been trained in clinical boundaries, and if we can
17:49
Speaker 4: really be aware of that and maintain that, we're pretty
17:53
Speaker 4: we've got a good start on how to protect ourselves
17:57
Speaker 4: from these types of games. But you just need to
18:00
Speaker 4: be aware of like what the lines are that you
18:03
Speaker 4: can't cross. So for example, you know, you would never
18:07
Speaker 4: mail an envelope from an for an inmate. You know,
18:11
Speaker 4: if you were to give you a piece of mail
18:13
Speaker 4: to say, hey, could you mail this for me? You
18:15
Speaker 4: would never do that, right because you have no idea
18:18
Speaker 4: what's in the envelope. There could be, you know, instructions
18:21
Speaker 4: for someone outside to assault or kill someone, right, and
18:26
Speaker 4: so then you mail it.
18:28
Speaker 3: You've now you're involved in a in a crime.
18:33
Speaker 4: So there there they might it might It could start
18:36
Speaker 4: off really simply like just a compliment, particularly for our
18:40
Speaker 4: female staff, a compliment about how how she looks right.
18:46
Speaker 4: And you know, if it may seem somewhat innocuous in
18:51
Speaker 4: the beginning, but if it's not nipped in the bud,
18:55
Speaker 4: then it can escalate. And and unfortunately, some people do
19:02
Speaker 4: get entrapped by these types of things.
19:06
Speaker 3: I've seen.
19:07
Speaker 4: I've known clinicians and other staff who have gotten involved
19:10
Speaker 4: the extent that they were bringing in drugs or cell
19:13
Speaker 4: phones or you know, or even engaging in some type
19:18
Speaker 4: of sexual activity with the inmates, all of which is illegal.
19:22
Speaker 2: So so damon just as you're talking. And this might
19:28
Speaker 2: sound crazy, but it almost seems to me like that
19:33
Speaker 2: setting could almost be more of an intimate setting then
19:38
Speaker 2: setting on the outside. I mean, I could see where,
19:40
Speaker 2: you know, an inmate who maybe doesn't have people visiting,
19:44
Speaker 2: or they think they've been wrongly convicted, and how they
19:47
Speaker 2: can you know, talk about that with their clinician and
19:50
Speaker 2: try to gain some kind of uh, you know, emotional
19:53
Speaker 2: support from that. I mean, I can see how this
19:55
Speaker 2: could really play out.
19:57
Speaker 4: Yeah, And so that's that kind of is one of
20:00
Speaker 4: the benefits of working there too, is that, like I
20:02
Speaker 4: said earlier, you know, you you're working with a population
20:06
Speaker 4: that has such a thirst for what you offer, and
20:10
Speaker 4: prison has a way of really stripping kind of the
20:14
Speaker 4: fluff from life. You're left with really a lot of
20:17
Speaker 4: the bare boned essentials. And so a lot of times,
20:21
Speaker 4: you know, people are are really ripe for the treatment.
20:26
Speaker 4: Now that's it gets a little more complicated because you know,
20:30
Speaker 4: there may be a part of let's let's I like
20:33
Speaker 4: to look at things from like an internal family systems perspective.
20:36
Speaker 4: So you know, one part of the client or the
20:38
Speaker 4: patient might be really engaged and really sincere and wanting
20:43
Speaker 4: to participate in the therapy, but another part of the
20:45
Speaker 4: patient may be have ulter your motives, right, and so
20:50
Speaker 4: maybe trying to you know, get some need met by
20:56
Speaker 4: working with you. That they're not disclosing and that they're
21:00
Speaker 4: that you're not aware of, and so you know they
21:06
Speaker 4: Oftentimes one of the challenges is it's like, okay, so
21:10
Speaker 4: what is the mission?
21:12
Speaker 3: Right?
21:12
Speaker 4: I mean, because when you think about it, part of
21:16
Speaker 4: the purpose of prison is retribution, right. I Mean prison
21:24
Speaker 4: serves several different functions, but retribution is one of them.
21:28
Speaker 4: You know, if someone murders your family member, you know
21:32
Speaker 4: you want them to be punished, right, And so prison
21:38
Speaker 4: is not designed to be comfortable. It's to some extent
21:44
Speaker 4: designed to punish the people for really bad behavior. Now
21:47
Speaker 4: there's also the purpose of rehabilitation as well, and so
21:55
Speaker 4: you know, I think sometimes clinicians struggle with.
22:00
Speaker 3: What am I What am I doing here? Like, what's
22:02
Speaker 3: what's the goal?
22:03
Speaker 4: Getting back to that earlier question, right, I mean, you know,
22:07
Speaker 4: so helping individuals guys kind of uh, you know, treating
22:12
Speaker 4: their mental illness, treating their symptoms, helping them develop better
22:16
Speaker 4: coping skills, all of that is certainly part of what
22:19
Speaker 4: we do. But at the same time, they're suffering, and
22:24
Speaker 4: we can't alleviate all of that suffering because of the
22:27
Speaker 4: environment they work at, and we probably shouldn't try to
22:31
Speaker 4: write and so sometimes I have to as a supervisor
22:36
Speaker 4: sometimes I remind staff, like, look, this is this is
22:38
Speaker 4: a prison. We can't fix everything for them. They're going
22:42
Speaker 4: to come to you, you know, kind of complaining or
22:47
Speaker 4: upset about something, how it's not working in their life.
22:51
Speaker 4: And that's just prison, right, that's a little bit outside
22:56
Speaker 4: of our scope. So let me give you a concrete example.
23:01
Speaker 4: You know, in most like at the higher security levels,
23:06
Speaker 4: inmates are put in cells with two people, right, two
23:11
Speaker 4: men to a cell. And you know a number of
23:16
Speaker 4: guys would like to be in a cell by themselves, right,
23:20
Speaker 4: and to get what's called a single cell status. And
23:25
Speaker 4: so they ask their clinicians, hey, I you know, they
23:28
Speaker 4: may say, hey, I'm I'm really suffering with these PTSD symptoms.
23:32
Speaker 4: I really need a single cell, And so they're trying
23:36
Speaker 4: to convince their clinician to do the paperwork necessary to
23:41
Speaker 4: kind of to recommend single cell status for them, right.
23:46
Speaker 4: And you know, as a supervisor, I have to remind
23:51
Speaker 4: clinicians like, that's really not our job. I mean, it's
23:57
Speaker 4: there has to be some really overwhelming evidence that someone
24:01
Speaker 4: is so impaired that they can't sell up with another inmate.
24:05
Speaker 4: And if they're that impaired, they probably need to be
24:07
Speaker 4: in a hospital.
24:09
Speaker 3: Right. Okay, So you know, but.
24:14
Speaker 4: The population, you know, certain certain members of the population
24:18
Speaker 4: that are that you're treating, will try to kind of
24:21
Speaker 4: play on your innate compassion to try to get something,
24:29
Speaker 4: whether that's something concrete like a single cell, or just
24:32
Speaker 4: something more, you know, in the form of greater pity
24:37
Speaker 4: or compassion or empathy.
24:42
Speaker 3: Right.
24:43
Speaker 2: I could see how that could be really challenging because
24:46
Speaker 2: the stakes can be potentially pretty high. So here you are,
24:49
Speaker 2: you know, as a therapist going in there, you know,
24:52
Speaker 2: wanting to introduce someone, help them discover rediscover their own humanity.
24:57
Speaker 2: And yet these uh I have to be I don't know,
25:04
Speaker 2: it just feels like you have to have your guard
25:06
Speaker 2: up almost all the time.
25:11
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean you have to have Yeah, you develop
25:13
Speaker 4: what's called correctional awareness, right, and that takes some time
25:17
Speaker 4: and you just kind of, you know, you learn to
25:26
Speaker 4: to kind of call a spade a spade, you know,
25:28
Speaker 4: you call it as you see it. And if you
25:30
Speaker 4: get the impression that someone's bullshitting you, you know, see
25:34
Speaker 4: them at French. But then in my opinion, you just
25:37
Speaker 4: call it and and then that can potentially become sort
25:41
Speaker 4: of the grist of the therapy. Right, But if you
25:46
Speaker 4: because if you don't call it out, then then it's
25:51
Speaker 4: it's in the room. It's sort of the elephant in
25:53
Speaker 4: the room, but no one's talking about it.
25:55
Speaker 2: So in a way, it almost seems like the setting
25:57
Speaker 2: demands a certain what uh, authenticity that's got to be
26:03
Speaker 2: right right there, a directness and immediacy, right.
26:07
Speaker 4: I think so, I think so, I mean I think
26:09
Speaker 4: sometimes I mean I guess that depends also on kind
26:11
Speaker 4: of your perspective.
26:13
Speaker 3: And but I I really believe.
26:15
Speaker 4: So, and I've I find that the population, you know,
26:19
Speaker 4: the guys seem to respect me more when you know,
26:24
Speaker 4: I speak their language. And so when I'm sitting with them,
26:26
Speaker 4: I may I may swear in session. I'm not swearing
26:31
Speaker 4: at them, right, but I may just swear because you know,
26:35
Speaker 4: and then they suddenly I'm more relatable to them, right right,
26:38
Speaker 4: I'm not some you know doctor that you know. So
26:41
Speaker 4: it's I'm leveling kind of that field with regards to
26:45
Speaker 4: the power balance. So but yeah, I think if you're authentic,
26:50
Speaker 4: because and they are experts at sniffing out in authenticity, right,
26:56
Speaker 4: if they get a sense that you're bullshitting them, I'll
27:00
Speaker 4: pick it up really quick, and and that'll have profound
27:04
Speaker 4: implications for the treatment because they'll shut they'll shut down.
27:08
Speaker 2: You talked a little bit before about you know who
27:13
Speaker 2: this setting might be quote unquote for and not for
27:16
Speaker 2: who do you think you know? We have a lot
27:17
Speaker 2: of people who are listening out there who are a
27:20
Speaker 2: therapists of varying types and so forth and levels of experience.
27:24
Speaker 2: But who do you if you could say, who do
27:26
Speaker 2: you think would would the setting would be good for.
27:31
Speaker 3: It's a great question.
27:32
Speaker 4: And you know, we have people who are just starting
27:36
Speaker 4: after graduate school, and we have people who after thirty
27:39
Speaker 4: years of working in private practice or in other settings,
27:43
Speaker 4: are now here. So, for example, I have a guy
27:47
Speaker 4: that works in one of my programs and he's retired.
27:49
Speaker 4: He's seventy years old. He's spent forty years working as
27:52
Speaker 4: a psychologist, both as a you know, providing direct patient
27:55
Speaker 4: care and also as an administrator.
27:59
Speaker 3: And he he's.
28:00
Speaker 4: Working in the prison system to kind of because he
28:03
Speaker 4: give him originally to give himself something to do in
28:05
Speaker 4: his retirement, but now he's really enjoying it.
28:07
Speaker 3: Right.
28:09
Speaker 4: So to be successful in the prison setting, you have
28:13
Speaker 4: to be able to work within the system, and the
28:17
Speaker 4: system sometimes can be just as challenging, if not more so,
28:21
Speaker 4: than the population, right, And so that's something to just
28:26
Speaker 4: be aware of from the outset. In fact, my very
28:30
Speaker 4: first clinical supervision session as a postdoc, like week one,
28:41
Speaker 4: almost ten years ago, one of the first things my
28:43
Speaker 4: supervisor said to me it was, you know, it's not
28:46
Speaker 4: the inmates you have.
28:47
Speaker 3: To worry about.
28:49
Speaker 4: And that has been so true because inmates their inmates,
28:55
Speaker 4: and you know, once you kind of get a feel
28:57
Speaker 4: for how to work with the inmates, like it's it's
29:00
Speaker 4: they're going to do what they're going to do, and
29:01
Speaker 4: you just you know, you just you learn how to
29:06
Speaker 4: deal with that. But the system, that the whole prison
29:08
Speaker 4: system itself, because there's a lot of there's a lot
29:11
Speaker 4: of politics, there's a lot of you know, court cases,
29:14
Speaker 4: there's some pretty for in mental health, the documentation requirements
29:19
Speaker 4: are are pretty collacious, you know, and so you have
29:25
Speaker 4: to be able to work within a system that is
29:28
Speaker 4: at times somewhat inflexible. So you have to be flexible, right,
29:35
Speaker 4: You just have to kind of take things and stride
29:37
Speaker 4: and not take things personally and and flow because if
29:43
Speaker 4: you you know, you you want to be the read
29:45
Speaker 4: not the oak, right because when the storm hits, the
29:49
Speaker 4: reed will bend and the oak will break. And so
29:56
Speaker 4: as long as you can be flexible, then I think
29:58
Speaker 4: you'll be You'll do.
29:59
Speaker 2: Okay, awesome. Two things before we sign off here. Before
30:06
Speaker 2: we started recording, you mentioned a book. Yes, let's talk
30:10
Speaker 2: about that a little bit.
30:12
Speaker 4: The book is called Games Criminal play As by Bud
30:17
Speaker 4: Allen and Deanna Bosta.
30:20
Speaker 3: I don't know if it's in print.
30:21
Speaker 4: Still it may be within it, there's a there's an
30:26
Speaker 4: article that's from one of the chapters. There's an article
30:30
Speaker 4: called Anatomy of a Setup. And some institutions, some prisons
30:36
Speaker 4: actually hand this out to their new staff during the
30:39
Speaker 4: new employee orientation.
30:43
Speaker 3: But it's a really good primer.
30:46
Speaker 4: On being aware of kind of the the manipulations that
30:50
Speaker 4: can take place in the prison setting. And and then
30:56
Speaker 4: how to kind of I mean, awareness is the big
30:59
Speaker 4: the biggest protect the factor at all, but then how
31:01
Speaker 4: to protect yourself, how to deal with it when you
31:03
Speaker 4: start getting a sense that you know, someone's trying to
31:06
Speaker 4: set you up.
31:07
Speaker 2: Okay, I did just find it on Amazon. Actually, okay, great,
31:11
Speaker 2: I'll have that. I'll have that linked up at the
31:12
Speaker 2: show notes page. So and then secondly, finally, you know,
31:17
Speaker 2: we were talking about safety, uh and in the prison system,
31:22
Speaker 2: and I mean, I love that word that that phrase
31:27
Speaker 2: that you mentioned was was was a correctional awareness. It
31:31
Speaker 2: just reminded me of self awareness and so forth, how
31:36
Speaker 2: do you as a supervisor manage that type of safety
31:40
Speaker 2: for the individual clinicians and uh, you your team as
31:44
Speaker 2: a whole.
31:45
Speaker 4: So as a supervisor, I just tried to provide some
31:48
Speaker 4: pretty consistent messaging some basic safety for the bles. So
31:53
Speaker 4: for example, you know, I'm I'm kind of always looking around.
31:56
Speaker 4: Do you have your whistle?
31:57
Speaker 3: Right?
31:57
Speaker 4: Do you have your alarm? Is it on your person?
32:00
Speaker 4: And don't leave it in your desk, right, because when
32:03
Speaker 4: something kicks off, it can happen really fast, and so
32:08
Speaker 4: you know, so some of it is as a supervisor
32:11
Speaker 4: is just making that messaging consistent because you want to
32:16
Speaker 4: for example, you're I'm a believer that you want to
32:22
Speaker 4: have your whistle and your alarm in the same place
32:24
Speaker 4: at all times, so you don't have to think where
32:26
Speaker 4: is it, right, It's just an automatic muscle memory response, right.
32:34
Speaker 3: And then just you know, you getting to.
32:36
Speaker 4: Know officers, they'll help you know, you know, give you
32:42
Speaker 4: some good advice and some good tips. You know, always
32:45
Speaker 4: know where your exits are kind of you know, knowing
32:49
Speaker 4: just being aware of what's happening around you is really.
32:52
Speaker 3: A big part of it.
32:54
Speaker 4: But the safety is actually it is actually pretty safe
32:58
Speaker 4: compared to say, for example, the state hospital system. When
33:02
Speaker 4: it comes to personal safety, I'd much rather work in
33:05
Speaker 4: a prison because you have correctional staff all around and
33:09
Speaker 4: then as soon as something happens that they're running towards
33:12
Speaker 4: the incident wherever it is. And so whereas in a
33:15
Speaker 4: hospital like NAPO State Hospital for example, you know, staff
33:20
Speaker 4: are the ones that have to be the first responders,
33:23
Speaker 4: and there's far more injuries on staff in the hospital setting.
33:30
Speaker 2: As you know, as we were preparing for this, and
33:33
Speaker 2: I was sending you some questions, you know, and I
33:36
Speaker 2: realized that I was I was really focusing on like
33:41
Speaker 2: a question like that, you know, what do they have
33:42
Speaker 2: to be We have to be concerned about our safety
33:45
Speaker 2: and you and you said, well, there are some benefits
33:47
Speaker 2: too to this. You know, there's some upside there's so
33:50
Speaker 2: let's talk a little bit about that before we go.
33:53
Speaker 2: I want I want people to hear that too.
33:57
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I kind of what I went back
33:59
Speaker 4: to before is you know, you're going to find some
34:03
Speaker 4: people who are really really ripe for what and really
34:07
Speaker 4: wanting what you have to offer in a very sincere way,
34:10
Speaker 4: and they may never have had anything like this in
34:13
Speaker 4: the past, and suddenly you come along and you know
34:18
Speaker 4: they're just they're just so ready and and at a
34:21
Speaker 4: very existential level, I mean, because you're dealing many times
34:24
Speaker 4: with issues that you know they're they're.
34:26
Speaker 3: Like, what the hell happened to me that I ended
34:29
Speaker 3: up here?
34:31
Speaker 2: Right?
34:31
Speaker 4: And so for many of these guys, when they're really ready,
34:36
Speaker 4: they're they're ready to kind of buckle down and go
34:40
Speaker 4: to work, and they're dealing with some very profound issues
34:45
Speaker 4: that you probably aren't going to see in the in
34:49
Speaker 4: the outside of the civilian setting.
34:52
Speaker 2: When you say, you know, they they're probably very ready
34:55
Speaker 2: and right for what you have to offer, meaning what
34:59
Speaker 2: relationship you're propore.
35:01
Speaker 4: Listening, doing some some self reflection, some really kind of
35:06
Speaker 4: I mean, the system is if you think of the
35:09
Speaker 4: prison system almost as a mirror, they've they've clearly done
35:14
Speaker 4: something that merited them being in a pretty horrific environment.
35:20
Speaker 4: And so when they're really ready to kind of look
35:23
Speaker 4: themselves to ask those questions of you know, what happened
35:28
Speaker 4: that led to what was the pathway that I was
35:32
Speaker 4: on that led me here?
35:34
Speaker 3: You know?
35:35
Speaker 4: Why am I here? What could I have done differently?
35:38
Speaker 4: Why did I do what I did to get here?
35:44
Speaker 4: You know, then it's there's a real opportunity to do
35:47
Speaker 4: some really deep work. Not everyone is going to go there, obviously,
35:51
Speaker 4: not everyone is capable of that, but you know, I
35:56
Speaker 4: know of one guy, for example, who was in my
35:58
Speaker 4: program that someone was treating and you know, he was
36:03
Speaker 4: basically a serial killer and uh, and he was really
36:09
Speaker 4: a monster for a long time and and now he's
36:13
Speaker 4: kind of an old man and he's really kind of
36:17
Speaker 4: excavating his life to figure out, you know, what the
36:22
Speaker 4: hell led me down that path?
36:24
Speaker 2: Right?
36:25
Speaker 3: Wow, So that can be pretty fascinating, right, Damien.
36:31
Speaker 2: I want to thank you so much for coming back
36:33
Speaker 2: here this this whole topic is fascinating and just continues
36:37
Speaker 2: to be. Uh. I think a great asset for for
36:41
Speaker 2: this podcast. So tell our listeners before we go how
36:45
Speaker 2: they can reach you.
36:47
Speaker 4: Yeah, my my email address is Damon Wood PhD at
36:53
Speaker 4: gmail dot com.
36:54
Speaker 2: Okay, I'll have that link up here at the show
36:56
Speaker 2: page at the Trauma taperspodcast dot com. All right, sir,
37:00
Speaker 2: thanks so much for for for spending this time with us.
37:03
Speaker 2: We'll talk again.
37:04
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a pleasure. Thank you.
37:08
Speaker 2: M M.