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The Apache Wars · Stuff You Should Know

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of I
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark,
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: and there's Charles W. Chuck Brian over there, and this
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: is Stuff you should know. Uh, celebrating Native American Heritage Month. Fantastic, um,
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: and we are talking about something we probably would have
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: talked about whether it was Native American Heritage Month or not,
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: but we selected it for this month in particular just
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: as a nod shout out. But we're talking about one
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: of those um moments in history that probably most people
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: are walking around and are like, oh, yeah, the Apache Wars,
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: I've I've heard of that, but no, almost nothing about
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: even though depending on how you look at it, it's
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: actually still to this day the longest ward that the
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: United States ever fought. Really Yeah, and it produced some
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: really famous, really interesting, really um amazing characters on both sides,
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: but in particular among the Apache who and we'll meet
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: a lot of them in this episode. Yeah, and these
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: are you know, a series of skirmishes over time that um,
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: it seems like there was there was often peace and
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: then there were these inciting incidents that would happen. There
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: were misunderstandings that happened. Uh, there were bungled um negotiations
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: that happened, and like it feels like it could have
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: gone a different way at so many points, and it
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: continually just went south. Yeah, And I mean speaking you know,
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: histories written by the victors, and so the idea of
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: the Apache basically being um, you know, bloodthirsty, cruel, merciless, um,
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: you know, people who mutilated victims and would kill women
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: and children. Um. You know, that's that's definitely painted. Uh,
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: it paints the whole the whole group with a much
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: larger brush than you should. But it also leaves out
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: the atrocities that were committed on the other side to
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: their people were slaughtered as well, exactly. So, Um, it's
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: just one of those things where it was war like.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: It was a genuine straight up war. But like you said,
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: there are plenty of places where it could have been avoided,
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: and we'll talk about those, but first talk, I think
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: we should talk about the Apache. And one of the
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: first things that I've learned when I started researching this
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: is that the Apache are not a nation or tribe.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: Their group of loosely affiliated tribes that all kind of
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: come from the same area and despite the fact that
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: we tend to think of the Apache as totally tied
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: to the southwestern United States, they actually arrived fairly recently
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: from western Canada, like BC, I take it, that's right, uh,
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: and they eventually found their way to the American uh southwest.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: They did not we call them Apache. They they do
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: not call themselves that. They called themselves I guess day,
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: which means that the people, which is pretty great and basic.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: And they think the name Apache may have been given
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: to them from the word Apache by the Zuni tribe
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: who battled with them many times, and that means Apache
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: means enemy in Zuni, so they think that's where Apache
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: came from. And uh, you know, you mentioned that they
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: were a loose collection. I mean there were never like
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of Apache. I'm not sure where the
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: numbers topped out, but they were spread over fifteen million
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: square miles, so that's called a very very thin uh distribution.
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: So they were uh, you know, not to skip head
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: too much, but they were rarely in groups, um more
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: than like twenty five or thirty at a time, right, right,
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: And so what you would call the Apache were actually
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: kind of spread out among the western Apache uh, there's
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: the Cherikawa Apache UM and then these larger groups were
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: split into smaller bands even and the Cherkawa are kind
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: of like the central group that UM fought the Apache wars,
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: although just about every apache Um tribe was involved, but
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: the Cherkaoa were kind of like the central figures. And
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: the Cherkao were broken into four different smaller bands, the
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: bed bed on kohe let's hear it, but donka hey,
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: thank you, Chuck, the chikon In Chehenni, and the Nedni
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah great, okay, so the so what was the first
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: one again? But donke hey, that's much better than mine.
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: But all of these groups, these four bands that formed
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: the ch Chirkawa apache Um total maybe people at their
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: at their largest um population size UM. And despite that
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: really small number, they produced some really famous people like
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: Geronimo CoA Cheese Victorio. All of them were Churakawa Apache
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: and again they were the central group that fought the
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: Apache Wars. They were also the central group that could
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: have stemmed off the Apache wars if UM some of
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: the Union soldiers that they had to deal with had
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: taken them a different way. That's right. Uh. And you
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: know I mentioned that there were a lot of misunderstandings
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: and mix ups along the way, and combine that with
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: the fact that, um, the settlers just thought they were
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: all Apache and that they all were the same. There
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: were misunderstandings like, uh, you know, a raid would happen
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: on a camp, and this was one of the the
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: ways that the Apache got by, as they would, you know,
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: not because they didn't like somebody, because they needed supplies
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: and stuff. They would raid a camp, take some stuff,
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: and the settlers would think, well, this is just this
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: is the Apache. It's all of you doing this, whereas
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: it might be one very small group and the other
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: groups will be like, I don't even know what you're
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: talking about, right, And that's why I was saying, you
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: can't really paint the the people we call the Apache
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: with this very large brush, because some of them worked
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: very closely and for the U. S. Military to go
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: find other Apache. UM. Even within the Cherikawa there were
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: totally different ideas on how to approach and deal with
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: the Americans. UM. There was a big division that developed
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: through the Apache wars in among the Apache of you know,
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: some of them were like, look, we cannot defeat this enemy.
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: The best thing we can do and to hope to
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: live peacefully is to just settle down and start farming
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: and live on these reservations that they're they're making us
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: live on. And the other groups said, no where. We
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: need to fight to the death for our ancestral lands
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: and our old ways of life. And so there's a
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: lot of nuance, there's a lot of difference. There's a
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: lot of disagreement among these people who are living and
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: fighting during the Apache Wars, and even some of the
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: ones that wanted to live peacefully were frequently worst into
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: fighting like that was their only choice. Um. And so
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: it's it's just really important to keep in mind that
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: you you can't just just like you can't say Apache
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: and that's just one nation because it's not. UM. You
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: also can't just say, well, all the Apache thought this way,
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: or even all the Cherikawa thought this way. There was
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: just a lot of a lot of difference, and there
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: was also a lot of room four different opinions, because,
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: like you said, the groups that they lived in really
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: were usually no more than twenty five or thirty and
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: a family or a couple of families exactly, and they
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: were often related by blood and marriage, and it was
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: a matrilineal society too. So if you were a man
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: and you married a woman, you joined your your wife's
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: family from that point on. And so these bands, these
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: four bands of the Cherikawa were um were very much
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: related to one another because they would often swap you know,
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: UM members through marriage and alliances. That's right. So uh
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: I mentioned the raids as a way of life for them. UM.
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: That is different than like there was no malice involved.
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: That was different from like an actual skirmish or a
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: battle when the warriors would would take center stage and
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: that was serious stuff. They were um. They were people
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: that very much uh wanted revenge when they were wronged,
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: and that's when those sort of really bloody skirmishes would
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: take place, as opposed to the raids, which was uh
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: them you know, getting food and supplies and ammunition and
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: stuff like that. Yeah. There was an author of a
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: book called the Apache Wars, a guy named Paul Andrew
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: Hutton said that they likened them to the Vikings, that
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: they just like rating was out of economic necessity. The
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: thing is that they were also again camp paying them
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: all with one brush. There are plenty of them that
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: were raiders UM, and all of them apparently engaged in raiding,
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: but some much more than others. And then the ones
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: that didn't raid so much, they might farm a little more,
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: or they might engage in peaceful trade with their neighbors.
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: But the the one commonality that basically all groups labeled
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: as APACHE seemed to have had was a a UM
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: like an enemy in Mexico, first the Spanish and then
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: later Mexico, where like if you were caught by Mexican
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  Speaker 1: and you were an Apache, or you were a Mexican
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: and you were caught by Apache, you were going to
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: face the very brutal, unhappy and UM almost immediately like
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: there they were. They weren't gonna like release you as
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: a hostage or negotiate for your release. You were going
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: to be killed horribly. Yeah. And they were united, uh
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: sometimes with the settlers against Mexico, so much so that
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: I believe one of the chiefs told Kit Carson, who
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: was an American scout in six like, hey, we'll team
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: up with you to fight Mexico. That's how much we
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: hate Mexico. Yeah. That chief was Mangus Colorados, and he
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: was actually one of the UM, one of the first
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: rate leaders at this time, at this moment in history
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: when the Americans first started showing up, and he was
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: very much interested in peace with the Americans. Um, not
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: even necessarily out of necessity, but like you said, like
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: the common enemy was Mexico, and he thought Americans were
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: great because they hated Mexico as much as as the
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: Apache did. That's right. The one problem with the Chiricawa
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: is that they had a nice place where they lived.
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: I mean, they were seasonal um migrators, and so they
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: would kind of move around. But um one of the
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: main places that they hung out was south south of
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: the Gila River in Arizona, and it was a really
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: really good place to be. So that means, of course,
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: as westward expansion happens, or as we'll see later, as
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: the Civil War happens and then Union troops head west
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: to try and keep it from falling into the hands
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: of the Southerners, that's gonna be a place where they're
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: gonna go. They're gonna be wagon trains going through there.
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: Eventually there's gonna be railroads going through there. And so
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: there was bay Slean. No chance that the Chiricawa were
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: just gonna be left alone to do their thing. No,
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: but this was their ancestral land, and they weren't exactly
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: you know, ones to leave other people alone through their
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: rating um and wars for revenge. So like again, like,
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: the stage was definitely set for Apache wars, but it's
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: wrong to say that they were inevitable. And the reason
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: why I was wrong to say that they were inevitables
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: because there was some early stuff that happened that didn't
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: have to happen that really kind of kicked this off.
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: But I propose we take a break before we start
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: talking about those things. Let's do it. Okay, We'll be
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: right back, Okay, Chuck so Um. One of the first
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: things that was um that that a lot of people
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: point to is the thing that kicked off the Apache war,
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: uh or wars I should say, took place in eighteen
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: sixty one, and it came to be known as the
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: Bascomb affair. And from what I saw, almost every site
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: that writes about Lieutenant George Bascombe wrote that he was young, inexperienced,
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: over enthusiastic, over zealous even, and pretty much incompetent when
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: it came to something as tense and unsure as negotiating
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: for the release of hostages. Yeah, and that's exactly what
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: happened in eighteen sixty one. The uh this is when
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: I didn't look up the Arab vapor um I'm going
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: with are of IPA. Okay. They were yet another band
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: of Apache that rated a farm of a settler named
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: John Ward. Went off to the Chiricawa Mountains, which is
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: where Coach Hee was. And you know, they did the
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: usual stuff. They took livestock, but they also made the
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: mistake of kidnapping UH John Ward's stepson, Felix Ward, which
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: is when UH Lieutenant Bascombe was sent in to bring
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: them to justice to negotiate something. He invites Coach Hee
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: to a meeting and again they went to Coaches's territory.
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: He was not behind this. And when he got in
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: a tent with Coach Yese and said, this is what
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: you did. This is one of those was those things
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: Coach he was like, I don't know what you're talking about. Man,
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: We had nothing to do with this. But here's what
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: I'll do. I'll try and find out I'll try and
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: find out who was behind this, and I'll track him
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: down and I'll bring him to you. And Bascomb said,
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: and which was a pretty good deal. Considering he didn't
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: have anything to do with it, and Bascomb said, no,
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: and you know what, You're gonna stay here as our
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: hostage along with your family members and coach he said,
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: I don't think so. I'm gonna cut a hole on
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: this tent in the middle of the night and leave.
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: They're like, how did he cut a hole in the tent?
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: It doesn't make any sense. He disappeared, but he he
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: had to leave his family behind to make his escape,
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: and UM Bascombe now had his family as hostages. So
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: Coachiefs went out UM and got his own hostages. They
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: raided a wagon train and a stage coach and got
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: both Mexican and American hostages. And the Mexicans they dispatched
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: immediately in some really terrible way. They tied them to
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: a wagon and then lit the wagon on fire. UM.
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: So the Mexican hostages had zero chance, but the Americans,
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: UM coach he's kept alive UH to to use as
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: UM pawns. And in negotiating the release of his own
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: family UM, and apparently Bascombe was unmoved. He said, no,
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: we're not releasing your family until we get that livestock
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: and that UM that kid that was initially kidnapped back
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: that's that's how your family's gonna get released. And so
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: after a few days of trying to negotiate U an
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: exchange of hostages, UM Coachife ordered the American hostages killed,
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: and then Bascomb ordered Coaches's family killed, which is really
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: something for a US Army officer to do, but that's
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: what happened. They were executed. Um. The women were let go,
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: but Um Coaches's favorite brother was among the ones that
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: were killed, and that did not sit very well with
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: Coach Cheese. That a lot of people say the baskemb
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: affairs what kicked off the the the Apache wars. Not
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: everyone agrees. Actually, there's there's other stuff that came later,
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: just real quick. The death of of Um Mangus Colorados,
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: that really important early chief who wanted to allie with
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: the Americans. In eighteen sixty three, he was invited for
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: peace talks and Um was held and executed. Um. The
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: peace talks were just a ruse, and he was grossly mutilated.
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: After he was murdered, they cut his head off, boiled
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: the skin from his goals, and its goal off to
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: a phrenologist in New York. Um and a lot of
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: people say that's probably what what started the Apache wars,
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: because not only was that a brutal way to treat
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: Mangus Colorados is very respected chief, but it also showed that, like,
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: you couldn't trust the Union Army to engage in actual
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: peach peace talks. They might just kill you. They might
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: just as soon kill you. And also they killed a
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: really big ally and studying hand among the Cherikawa. Alright,
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: so I mentioned earlier the Civil War getting cranked up
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: back east and Union soldiers coming out to kind of
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: you know, safeguard or at least protect Southerners from coming
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: into the American Southwest, and all of a sudden that
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: Cherikawa there, like, hey, if we want to do some rating,
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: this is pretty great because they've got all kinds of supplies,
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: all kinds of munitions, and it's a pretty pretty good
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: group of people to try and raid. And how some
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: of these raids went down as far as the military
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: is concerned, Uh, they're a battle in eighteen sixty two
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: that was pretty typical is that they would raid the military,
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: but the military it was far more outguns them. And
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: so the Apache retreat, but a retreat to the Apache
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: was not some bad thing. It was actually a tactic
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: because they could just sort of They're like, why just
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: get slaughtered because of pride when we can retreat and
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: really disappear into the desert and like they will not
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: find us. We know this land so well, we can
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: really hide out here because we're few in number and
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: we know this territory. And there are historians that basically
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: agreed that say, you know, if it wasn't for Apache
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: that ended up working with the military to turn on
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: their own people, like they could have never been found
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: if they didn't want to be. Yeah, and it wasn't
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: even necessarily turning on their own people. Again, that's looking
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: at it through the idea that all Apache were the same.
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: But we're talking about like the White Mountain Apache um
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: or the Dark Rocks people Apache like people that that
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: were might as well have been enemies to the Cherikawa.
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: So like the idea of them working with the army
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: as scouts to find these other Apache wasn't you know,
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: quite as much as as being like a Benedict Arnold
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: kind of thing. Yeah, not not turning on their own tribe,
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: right right, So um I found Chuck, there's actually a
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: confederate UM like officer that's buried in Arizona, because the
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: Confederacy actually made its way managed to get to Arizona
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: and occupied it for a brief time, and they themselves
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: also got into skirmishes with the Apache there and one
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: of them got killed. So there's a guy that's buried
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: who is a Confederate soldier in Arizona. Wow. So, um,
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: we should probably talk about the Camp Grant massacre because
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: this is a big turning point. We have lots of
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: raids and skirmishes and battles and atrocities that have been
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: going on during the first Um Apache Wars generally how
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: it's kind of loosely gathered together. But the Camp Grant
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: massacre in eighteen seventy one, it was a big turning
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: point because there of Apa chief Eska Mansen's Um people
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: were camped out near um Tucson at an army encampment,
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: like peacefully settling there. They were not like scouting or
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: doing anything like that. But the people of Tucson were
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: worried that there were raiders among them, and so they
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: pre emptively massacred the Um the Apache that were there,
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: and I think all but eight of the hundred and
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: forty four people that were killed in that massacre of
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: the Apache um were women and children. UM. And that
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: I think something like twenty seven kids were kidnapped and
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: sold into slavery and very soon came to work in
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: some of the homes of two sons, most affluent families.
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: It was a huge atrocity that was carried out by
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: the white settlers of Tucson UM and it had a
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: huge effect on not just the Um, the arab Apa Apache,
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: but also the Chirakawa as well. And it also had
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: a big effect on President Grant Ulysses As Grant who
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: was furious when he heard about this, and he actually
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: threatened to put Arizona under martial law unless this whole
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: thing got sorted out. And he sent a peace delegation
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: to speak with Coach Cheese to see if they could
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: keep this war from continuing on or breaking out further.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: That's right. Uh. So they offered a truce. Uh. They said,
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: here's what we'll do. If you agree to move to
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: this reservation in San Carlos, then we can have a
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: peace treaty and a truce in line. Uh. San Carlos
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: was not a good place to be UM. It was terrible.
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: The settlers knew this, Uh, the Apache knew this. They
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: all called it Hell's forty Acres and so it was
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: not a place that they wanted to go. But Coach
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: Chiefs negotiated and said, you know what, we're not going there,
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: but if we can create our new reservation that's just
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: for us and we can come and go as we please, uh,
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: then we'll we'll get on board with his truce. And
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: Grant said okay, and they had a piece and it
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: lasted about four years. Eventually Coach Hes died of stomach cancer, though,
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: and that was, you know, one thing that kind of
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: weakened the piece. Accord. There was also an incident where, uh,
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: there were a couple of Chiricawa Apache who killed two
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: white men who didn't give them whiskey fair enough. And
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: both of these incidents is basically just sort of chipped away,
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: and all of a sudden there was no more truce. No,
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: because the people who lived in the area were like,
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: we don't like this idea that the Cherkawa gets to
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: like come and go off of their reservation as they please.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: And in fact, they were staging raids in Mexico, which
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: was not part of the treaty, but it was an
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: oversight UM. And so like all those things combined, like
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: especially with the death of coaches like that, that treaty ended,
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: UM and so that like this the I think it
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: was a four year UM four year peace and when
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: that ended, the second Apache Wars began. That's right, Uh,
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: and coach he's his son took his place. UM. They said,
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: you know basically that UM, that reservation was abolished that
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: they were happy with. And they said, well, great, that
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: means we can just go back and live on you know,
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: wherever you want and and migrate around. And they said, no,
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: not really, UM, we'd like you to go back to
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: the San Carlos reservation that we know you hate. And
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: so they started negotiating. Uh Tazza had another uh Chiricawa
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: chief name who chief who j you h who He
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: was with Bdonka Hayes And he had a stutter though,
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: so he said, I don't like to negotiate in person
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: with my stutter. I'm going to have a proxy. My
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: brother in law, uh Goyakla is going to speak for me.
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: He's a medicine man, but you might know him by
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: his other name Geronimo And everyone went, WHOA, right, we've
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: heard of him, Uh, Geronimo. By this time, he was
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: already nicknamed as Geronimo, because it was the Mexicans who
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: gave Geronimo his nickname, and still to this day, no
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: one knows what the heck they meant by that. It
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: turns out that Geronimo is a really rare Italian version
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: of the name Jerome. And we're talking about Mexican and
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: Spanish people, not Italian, so it would be weird for
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: them to give him the name Jerome. And even if
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: they had given him the name Jerome, it wouldn't make
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: any sense because that means sacred name. And by the way,
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: you know Hieronymous, that's a version of Geronimo. Yeah, but
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: it doesn't make any sense. So regardless, it's lost to
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: history why they call him Geronimo, but they would shout
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: Geronimo during um some raids that he staged in New Mexico,
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: and Geronimo went into Mexico because if there was anybody
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: who hated among the Apache, who hated Mexican UH people,
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: it was Geronimo. He had watched them slaughter his UH
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: fame emily, including his mother and his wife, and some
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: children um, and he never he never forgot it, He
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: never forgave him. In every chance he had to kill
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: a Mexican, he he would take it gladly. That's right.
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: I mean he was genuinely scarred as a young man.
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: So it wasn't just like man hell bent on revenge.
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: It was man who suffered like deep deep draumas uh,
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: losing his family like this, so you know, that's where
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: all that came from. But he was a complicated guy.
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: He was you know, if you talked to Americans, he
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: was known as quote the worst Indian that ever lived
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: end quote. He had a bad temper, he was paranoid.
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: He was a fierce fighter who would not hang back,
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: you know, and like shoot arrows from long distances. He
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: would charge the enemy and running his zigzag so he
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: wouldn't get hit with a bullet, although apparently he did
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: get hit with a bullet quite a bit, as we'll
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: find out later. And then he would knife people and
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: take their guns and he didn't even know how to use.
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: Once he would take guns back to the other apache
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: so he got this nickname. Uh. They as like Mexicans
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: would shout it to warn each other, and then it
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: became something that the Apache latched onto as like a
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: chant of enthusiasm. Right. And so Geronimo was never a chief.
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: He became a leader, but he was never a chief.
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: And apparently he really didn't like people who um accidentally
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: confused him as a chief. Um. But he he had
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: like a lot of say, being a medicine man for
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: the badonky he right, m um, and but be being
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: that proxy of the actual chief who. So he was
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: part of these talks and the the the idea was
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: or the the decision was between who and Tazza and
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: Geronimo that um. The the Apache could either move to
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: the San Carlos Resignation Reservation, which had been designated for Apache,
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: or they could live life on the run um and
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: basically be died and exterminated by the U S Army.
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: That was their choice. And so Tazza, who was the
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: son of coaches and it was his designated air, said,
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: I we should we should, Like my father knew, like
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: there's no way to defeat these people. We need to
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: just you know, live in peace with them. And I
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: guess it means we have to move to the San
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: Carlos Reservation. Something like a third of the Apache followed him,
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: but two thirds said, now we're going to go the
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: way of Geronimo and who, and that is to just
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: basically escape and start staging raids and fighting and living
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: life on the run. Yeah, and Geronimo, this is really
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: the point in time where his legend really began to
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: grow as far as the Americans are concerned. And he was, uh,
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: like I said, he was a complicated guy. He would um,
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: he would get criticized by his own people for for
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: for you know, not giving up when he should, for
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: being reckless in their eyes with some of these young
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: soldiers who weren't as prepared as they need to be,
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: And was basically always just sort of like, at this point,
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: at least go full bore and try and win these
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: battles as like brutally as possible. So this was happening.
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: He was getting a reputation among his own people at
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: some points. Uh. There was a point in eighteen eighty
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: three where he staged a raid on that San Carlos reservation,
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: captured another Chira Cowen leader named Chief Loco and two
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: hundred of his followers and basically at gunpoint said you're
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: with me now, and you got to help us fight.
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: So he was uh, he wasn't always looked upon the
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: best by his own people, even because of stuff like this. Yeah,
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: I mean Chief Loco and his followers were like, no,
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: we're just trying to um, We're just trying to live peacefully.
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: Leave us alone, and and Gerano was said now, so
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: they were kind of pressed into service other groups. He
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: he in his band attracted just because they wanted to
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: fight too. It was that division of no, we need
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: to protect our ancestral lands and our old ways of living, um.
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: And so he attracted like Chief Chihuahua, Chief Nana, who
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: was also a Chehenney like Chief Loco. And that actually, um,
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: that that that kind of shows that division of opinions
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: and thoughts where Chief Loco is like, no, we need
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: to live, we need to live peacefully, and he was
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: a Cheheney. Um. Chief Nana was also a Cheheney, and
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: he was like, no, I'm he was at Geronimo side
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: throughout this entire fight. There's a lot of people say
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: that Chief Nana he was very old even during this time. Um,
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: and he lived to be a very old man. But
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: he also died fighting. They think that he probably killed
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: more Americans than any apache in history, just because he
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: was um, he fought so much and he lived for
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: so long. He's apparently also a really brilliant strategist as well. Alright,
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: so should we take a break or should we wait?
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: We could take a break. Is this our second one?
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: I've lost track because this is a thrilling story. Al Right,
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: let's take our second break and we'll pick back up
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: right after this. Okay. Alright, So at this same time,
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: kind of concurrently to Geronimo and all all his battle
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: and going on the Chaheney started to fight uh the
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: Americans at the same time. And they did this because
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: of another kind of a weird incident um caused by Geronimo,
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: almost an accident. Uh. He escaped. He had a knack
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: for escaping. He was really good at that. We'll see
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: time and time again. If you had Geronimo, you didn't
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: have him for very long. So he escaped and snuck
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: onto a reservation at uh Oho Caliente. And this was
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: this was kind of a big deal. Like they weren't
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: supposed to be there. They were supposed to Chihaney were uh,
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: they were supposed to be at San Carlos. They had
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: set up this other reservation, and again it was you know,
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: no one knew they were there because things were so
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: spread out. They were living peacefully. But this Geronimo escaping
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: and going to their encampment, they were like, hey man,
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: thanks a lot, Like now everybody knows we're here. He
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: brought the head. Yeah, put the serious heat on them
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: to the point where they said, you know, if you're
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: off of this reservation, you're gonna be shot on site.
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: And this kind of launches another one of the Apache
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: Wars or another part. Yeah. The Warm Springs band of
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: the chiheny Um were led by Chief Victorio, and they
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: were forced now that they now that they were found
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: out that they were living on Oho Caliente, which I
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: guess was, you know, a nicer reservation as far as
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: reservations went, that they were supposed to be in San Carlos.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: They were faced with the same decision, go live in
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: this hell of San Carlos or live on the run.
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: And so Chief Victorio said, all right, we've been living peacefully.
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: We gave it a shot. The jig is up. Now
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: we are going to go back to living on the run.
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: And for two years Chief Victoria and his band was
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: were staging their own Apache war uh, concurrent with Geronimo
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: and his band staging a different Apache war, and Chief
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: Victoria's war in the band that that followed him were
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: so effective that Mexico and America, which hated each other,
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: still had been engaged in the Mexican American War less
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: than a decade before. UM, and we're just not fast
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: friends by any measure. Um, Mexico allowed the US to
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: UH have its army into Mexico and chase Chief Victorio
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: and his band. That's how much they were hated by
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: both the Mexicans and the Americans. And and um, that's
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: the links that they went to. And apparently they were
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: actually eventually found by a Mexican American joint expedition. The
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: Mexican contingent said to Mary Ricans, you should probably leave,
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: and that deep, deep, centuries old hatred between the Mexicans
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: and the Apache was really kind of brought to the foe,
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: and the Mexican slaughtered Victoria. Right up until this point, though,
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: Victoria had a lot of success with only about a
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: hundred and fifty warriors to fight with, and one of
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: the big reasons was this woman named losen Uh lowsin
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: was was pretty incredible and someone who I mean not
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: certainly not lost to history, but someone that you probably
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: never learned about in in like high school history. So
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: she was Victoria's sister, known as the apache Joan of arc. Uh.
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: She was a Chiheney Chiricawa medicine woman. She was a
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: great fighter, she was a great strategist. She uh, she
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: was wise beyond her years. She would she would kind
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: of do anything. I mean, there were great legends of
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: her like, uh, like helping to give birth on the
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: battlefield in the desert. Uh, and then like you know,
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: going right back to fighting and did a little Stevie
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: Nicks kind of deal where apparently she would hold her
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: hands out to the side and pray and lift her
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: palms up and turn in a circle. And uh, she said.
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: And then of course this is this is lore. But
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: she said that she could she would know the direction
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: where the enemy was coming from from these tingles that
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: she would get and depending on how intense the tingles were,
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: she could even tell how far they're away they were
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: from them. Yeah, it's still cheer a cow a legend
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: today that it was Losen who allowed Victoria in a
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: small band of a hundred and fifty people to survive
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: for two years, um, as long as they did from
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: this this weird special talent she had of knowing where
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: the enemy was coming from and how far away they were,
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: and sometimes how how strong their troop numbers were. Um,
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: and then they would move and dictate like their raids
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: based on her basically her visions, um and it was.
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: The idea is kind of supported by the fact that
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: Lowsen wasn't there when Victorio and the last of his
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: band met their end at the hand of the Mexicans.
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: She was um off smuggling a woman, a new mother,
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: and her newborn infant um back to the reservation so
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: that the mom and the baby could live safely. And
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: when she got to the reservation, she got news that
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: that her brother, Victorio and the rest of the band
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: that was fighting with him had all been slaughtered. And
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: there's a there's a discrepancy historically about how Victorio died, right, Yeah,
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: he either died, you know, fighting until his last breath,
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: or he took his own life at the last minute. Yeah,
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: so um. Either way, all of the band fought, fought
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: to their death, and Lowsen wasn't ready to give up
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: fighting either she was actually on the reservation and could
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: have stayed there. Instead, she immediately made her way to
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: go find Geronimo and his band and she joined up
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: with them. What if Lowsen had just been stealing uh
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: maps and plans from the other side, and she was like,
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: watch this. They love this stuff, right, She like does
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: the Stevie Nicks, the spin with the palms out kind
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: of things. She's like, yeah, they eat this up. I'm
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: gonna be a legend. What's this pretty good stuff? Um?
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: So now we find ourselves kind of coming towards the
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: end of the Apache Wars where things get really interesting.
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: When a man named General George Crook arrived on the scene.
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: They called him the Tan Wolf because he were Khaki.
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: A lot had a knack for Khaki. They had a
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: lot of respect for him, he had respect for them.
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: He earned his name fighting against the Sioux with Custer
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: years ago, but now he was back. I guess he
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: was a really good tracker too, because time and time again,
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: as we'll see, he tracked down Geronimo. Uh. They were
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: holding out in Mexico at this point, and he wanted
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: to negotiate, but things were pretty tense at the time,
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: So there were still a couple of skirmishes, and I
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: think Geronimo Uh and some of his guys were up
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: on a cliff above Crook's company and they were kind
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: of taunting Uh Crook's Apache scouts. Things were not going well,
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: but it ended up in a very strange turn of
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: events working out because Krook was a hunter and was
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: going off hunting the next day by himself and was
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: tracking an animal and ended up tracking this animal or
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: I don't know if he found the animal in the camp,
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: but eventually made his way right up to Geronimo and
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: where Geronimo was camped out and was like, oh, hi there,
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: and Geronimo says, you know what I'm gonna do. I'm
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: not gonna kill you, which he totally could have. I mean,
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: Krook was there with a single gun by himself, with
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: no cover and he just accidentally stumbled upon Geronimo and
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: some of his his warriors. That's I can imagine how
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: tense that situation was, even Crook knowing that they respected
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: him and he respected them. It's still Geronimo like, again,
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: what what the the Americans considered the worst Indian that
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: ever lived? That's right, so the writing was kind of
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: on the wall at this point with American encroachment. Geronimo
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: was like, there are endless numbers of you guys. You
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: have way more weapons, way more ammunition, way more supplies
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: than we could could ever get, and we've been on
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: the run and I don't think, uh, it's gonna work
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: out for us in the end. So maybe it's finally
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: time to not fight and to sit down at the
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: negotiating table, since you seem like someone who was at
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: least honorable enough to negotiate something honest. And Geronimo is
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: the last holdout to come to this conclusion by this time,
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: like it was just he and his band. The rest
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: of the APACHE or the rest of the um Chirrakawa
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: UM had either concluded that it was best to just
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: settle down and and um adapt to reservation life, or
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: they had been killed fighting. So for Geronimo to finally
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: come to this conclusion, he had been worn out because
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: he was the kind of just keep going and keep
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: going and keep going and inspire others to keep going.
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: So he um he decides to surrender to Crook, and
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: apparently the surrender lasted a very short time, but one
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: of the reasons why he did surrender was Crooks said
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: that um, that they would create a new reservation near
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: Turkey Creek, which is where Geronimo was born. Um, And
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: so they weren't going to move them to San Carlos.
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you've noticed a pattern or not everybody,
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: but when the only option was moved to San Carlos
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: or die, very frequently the Apache chose die or fight
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: to the death, um, because that's how bad San Carlos was.
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: Whenever there was another reservation put on the table, the
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: APACHE tended to say, okay, we'll we'll go give that
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: a shot. So it was really kind of points out
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: like how much of this could have been avoided, not
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: just from George Bascombe never being involved, or not just
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: for them torturing and killing mangus uh Colorado, but if
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: they had just proved the way of living at San
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: Carlos or gotten rid of San Carlos and just created
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: these other better reservations, the Apache wars might never have
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: taken the effect that they had either. You know, It's
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: like when Clarice Starling offered Hannibal Lecterer stay on Anthrax Island,
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: Plumb Island, Plumb Island. If it had gone a different way,
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: if they had offered him a real, like nice place,
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: maybe no one else would have died. Maybe they would
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: have caught Buffalo Bill before well wait a minute, they did.
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: It all worked out just fine thanks to Plumb Island.
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: You know, someone a fan of the movie bought the
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: Buffalo Bill House and has h has made it a
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: basically a silence of the Lamb's Museum. And I think
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: he's building out the basement to where you can airbnb
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: it and stay there. Oh boy, that sounds awful. It's
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: pretty great, and it's and that's just like the story
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: of Germontimo. Is it in um Ohio for real? I don't,
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: I don't remember where they're real And because you know,
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: very frequently they'll just be like this househol work. No
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: one will ever know it's you know, hig oh, no
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: one will ever buy this house and turn into Airbnb
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: and publicized that it's actually in Colorado. You know, hope
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: he makes money off of it. So um So Geronimo
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: surrenders a total chuck of four different times surrenders, escape, surrenders, escapes,
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: um And the reason he keeps escaping is because he
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: was about as hated as anyone ever was in this
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: stage of American history, not just out West, but even
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: back east. He was hated, mistrusted, um And there were
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: editorials that he would read written in the local paper
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: of wherever, whatever reservation he was having, he was being
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: held at um that we're calling for his immediate execution
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: and murder, sometimes by mobs and vigilante So apparently he
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: had a very large weakness for alcohol, and when he
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: got drunk, you could really convince him that they were
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: going to kill him if he didn't escape. So he
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: surrendered and escaped four different times games and on the
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: last time, uh, Krook was sent in with different marching orders,
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: this time by President Grover Cleveland, who said, there's no
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: terms of surrender anymore. Geronimo surrenders unconditionally or he dies.
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: And Krook said, that doesn't really sit well with me. Yeah,
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: he resigned, and uh, I think ever since then, you know,
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: or at least back then, of course, he was really
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: looked down upon for doing that by his fellow American soldiers.
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: So there's a bounty having integrity. Just want to be
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: clear about, uh, there's a bounty on Geronimo's head. At
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: this point for Grand a lot of money and a
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: new general takes over named General Nelson Miles. He was
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: sort of the opposite of Krook and that he had
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: no respect for the Apache. They had no respect for him. Uh.
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: He would do his leading from Fort's many many miles
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: away from the real action, and he was he kind
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: of ruined things in the end. Uh that that we'll
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: get to here in a second. But this last summer
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: of freedom here in eighty six for the Chericawa, um
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: I think it was Natchie was the chief at this point. Yeah,
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: and he was Tazza's brother, um who was not bred
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: to be chief. But Tazza died on a trip to Washington,
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: d C. So now you had a chief that was
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: easily manipulated through Geronimo, which just f y I. So
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: there was there were only like thirty seven uh free
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: Chiricawa at this point that were still down to battle.
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: Eighteen of them were the warrior types. There were thirteen
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: women and six kids, including a couple of infants. And
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: these thirty seven people were on the lamb for five
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: full months with a total of about you know, eight
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: to ten thousand either Army U S army or Mexican
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: soldiers or volunteers trying to find them. It's crazy, like
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: they could really blend into their territory. Yeah, they did
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: so well at that Chuck. There was only one death
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: that entire summer of that band of thirty seven, and
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: Geronimo was loving it. He was like in retrospect, he
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: was like, this was these were the salad days. I
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: did some of my best fighting. He's you know, there
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: were a few of us. Uh, you know, I I could.
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: I knew when they were coming. I didn't do the
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: Stevie Knicks, but I knew. I knew what was going
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: to happen before it happened. I was so on my game.
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: So that General Miles guy, he came up with a plan,
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: like he knew that the UM, the the Apache, the
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: Cherikawa that we're on San Carlos Reservation were still very
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: closely tied to this band of thirty seven that were
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: following Geronimo UM, and so he sent word through two
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: Apache scouts that the family members for the four and
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: thirty four Churikawa on the reservation had been shipped to
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: a prison in Florida, and that if they ever wanted
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: to see their family again. They needed to give up
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: and surrender, and this proved to be the last draw
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: for Geronimo. He said, okay, fine, I'm gonna surrender, and
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: he negotiated. He managed to negotiate terms. He agreed to
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: be uh to live in exile for two years as
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: a prisoner of war. But it turned out that the
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: the those terms were not honored and he never was
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: able to to make his way back to his his homeland,
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: his ancestral land in South Arizona, New Mexico again after
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: he left. That's right, I believe that they were. He
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: was reunited with his family eventually in Alabama, UH and
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: then moved out to Oklahoma. Yes, neither of which were
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: his original You know, I think to the Americans back then,
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: they're like, oh, look, we're sending you to Oklahoma, where
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: you're where your your people are from. So that's probably great, right. Yeah.
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: So the problem was that the people who finally did
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: make it to Indian Territory in Oklahoma, and again this
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: is just a male ling hodgepodgs there, like, if you're
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: a Native American, this is where you live now Oklahoma.
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: It was twenty seven years before any Chirrakawa were allowed
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: to move back to their ancestral lands, and at the
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: time about a third of them said, no, this is
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: our home now. Um, you know, most of us were
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: born here. A lot of us were born here. So
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: there's a Fort Sill, Oklahoma, um contingent of of Churacawa,
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: and then there's also the Mescalero Reservation Cherracawa that live.
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: About two thirds of them moved to that south south
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: southern Arizona area where they live still today. And Geronimo,
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: if you've ever seen uh, I mean, there are quite
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: a few famous portraits and photographs of Geronimo, and that's
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: because Geronimo went on to be pretty famous. Uh. He
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: later on toured with Buffalo Bill and his side show.
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: He would uh, he would sell his little trinkets from
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: his coat uh to two people who would pay top dollar,
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: like buttons, and then he just replaced it with another
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: button way for the next person. That's right. And he
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: rode and Teddy Roosevelt's election parade, and as legend has it,
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: a lot of people came to see Geronimo more so
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: than Teddy Roosevelt. Even he asked personally Teddy Roosevelt permission
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: to go back to his ancestral lands, and Teddy Roosevelt refused,
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: even those long past the two years that he had
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: negotiated in the terms of his surrender. Teddy Roosevelt said, basically,
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: you don't want to go back there. There's too many
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: people that want to see you hanged still. And so
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: Geronimo actually died on the reservation at Fort Sill, Oklahoma. Um.
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: He had been drinking pretty heavily that day, fell off
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: his horse, Um and laid in a ditch all night
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: and apparently caught pneumonia. And as he was dying, he
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: regretted not having fought to the death, even though he
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: managed to live to be an old man. Um. And
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: in retrospect this the the Apache Wars were Um. Again,
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: that was, depending on how you look at it, the
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: longest lasting war in American history. And it was also
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: extraordinarily bloody, especially for the Americans. Remember the Cherikawa numbered
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: maybe hundred, and they managed to engage in a twenty
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: five year war with the American Army and the Mexican
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: Army simultaneously. And there's a famous quote from William to
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: Comps to Sherman, who said, we had one war with
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: Mexico to take Arizona and we should have another war
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: to make them take it back. That's how devastating the
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: Apache Wars were for the Americans. So that's the Apache Wars.
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: Oh one other thing, Chuck, So remember I said there
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: was a division among the Cherikawa um about ones who
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: were like, we just want to live in peace and
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: will adapt a reservation life, and the others they know,
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: we have to we have to fight to the death
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: for the old ways. Well, now, if you look back
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: and you go onto the Cherikawa tribe we site and
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: you look, they proclaimed themselves to be a peaceful tribe.
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: So it turns out that that faction ultimately one out
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: in the end. Very cool. Do you have anything else now? Okay, Well,
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: if you want to know more about the Cherikawa and
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: other Apache groups, there's plenty of really interesting history out
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: there for you on the Internet. And since I said
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: that it's time for listener mail, I'm gonna call this
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: reminder that we have a lot of episodes. Hello Josh
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: and Chuckers. I'm writing you today from Georgetown, Texas while
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: currently listening to How Kleptomaniacs Work from two thousand nine,
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: recently discovered your podcast and love it. So I decided
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: to start at the beginning. Do y'all know you'll have
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: eighteen and forty three episodes? I don't think that's right. Uh,
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: and Sarah says, Holy hell, it's taking a while to
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: get caught up. I really want to jump to new
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: But on the other hand, it's kind of fun and
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: interesting to listen to past episodes. For example, will the
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: world end in twelve? Dug a bullet on that one. Anyway,
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: I just want to send a quick hello, love the show,
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: Love how you smart guys. That's in quotes, by the way,
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: which means she doesn't really mean that, deliver info in
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: a funny way. I also love that I get your
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: random references to off the wall stuff Simpson's episode, old
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: school band names, et cetera. Keep up the great work.
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: You can't wait to hear what the future holds I
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: E episodes. That is from Sarah A yes, well, Chuck,
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: think about how red Sarah's face is going to be
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: when she finally gets to the episode where you suggest
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: sandwiching episodes. I know, well, I'm gonna tell Sarah. We'll
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: see what happens here. Okay, I'm gonna tell her I'm
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: reading this listener mail. We'll see if we can't tempt her.
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: I won't even tell her which episode it said. Okay,
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: so she'll hear this in like twenty seven years. No, no no, no,
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna let her know, and she may she may
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: start listening to your episodes. You know what I'm saying. Okay, Well,
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: I think we've reached the end of this episode. And
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: if you want to be like Sarah and get in
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: touch with us, you can send us an email to
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: Stuff podcast at iHeart radio dot com. Stuff you Should
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: Know is a production of I Heart Radio. For more
• 50:09
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• 50:13
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