Latest / Sword&Spade / Your Catholic Culture Is Just a Sticker on the Same Old Life w/ Joel Trumbo
Transcript
- Jason M Craig (01:19.64) Welcome brothers, friends, listeners, to the Sword and Spade Podcast. My name is Jason Craig. I'm the founding editor of Sword and Spade magazine, the publication that this port podcast was born out of. And we have a rule in the magazine that we only deal with men that are really doing things that we we say that are building culture. And for a lot of people, that that might seem too vague. And it's definitely to me sounds too vague, but there's men typically if you're building culture, you're actually making stuff. so today we have a guy who makes stuff. My guest today is Joel Trumbo, founder of Tamburn Manor. He's a craftsman, homesteader, Catholic convert whose life has taken him from army ranger to traditional bookbinder and builder of Catholic culture. Joel explores how beauty, craftsmanship, hospitality, and tradition can help restore what modern life often neglects. So today we're going to discuss masculinity, culture building, and the things worth preserving. but but but very opening, I I need to hear more about this because when I hear army ranger, I'm not expecting the next sentence to be conversion through beauty. so maybe we could just j maybe we could just jump right there. how how d how does an army guy get converted by beauty? What happened? Joel Trumbo Tamburn (02:42.365) Yeah. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (02:52.093) Well, I was converted by beauty from a young age, really. I was I was home schooled. My parents are both teachers and classicists. So I was was brought up Christian, not Catholic, but I had a a very a classical education and really very very platonic in a lot of ways. And so I've always I I developed sort of a romantic outlook from a young age. And that's actually what drew me to the military service because I I j I had a very strong connection to old stories and things like that. And so traditional valor and you know the the pursuit of martial excellence when I was a young man seemed to me to be one of one of the highest vocations or directions to move in. So I I wanted to become a soldier, but I I wanted to pursue that at the most extreme or elite level that I could. And so I I started from a young age. I was kinda geared towards special operations. That was my goal. But I've always been I've always been a nerd as well. I love books, I love art, music. I've always sort of been steeped in these things. And so while I was professionally I was going into warfare and and very unbeautiful places. But interiorly I've always been that that's kind of a part of it in in my interior disposition towards the romantic and towards towards the beautiful. And the draw to the to the beautiful has always been very strong to me and in my spiritual life that eventually the the order and coherence and the profundity of the Catholic faith and I'm not sure what the correct term would be to use for this, but the Joel Trumbo Tamburn (04:49.383) the the layers to it. There's a there's a depth to it in all kinds of spheres of of beauty of I I read a lot of the the church fathers and the mystics and that there's just so much to kind of always draw you deeper and deeper. It's very much a romantic view of of reality. And so that's that's why I say that that beauty converted me because I was I was mo I the movement started because of truth, because some of the things in my theological upbringing didn't quite click anymore and I was looking for a little bit more coherent truth content, I suppose, but I kinda stayed for the beauty. You know, once I got in, I that's that's what hit me the hardest. When you when you go into a church that is just full of beauty, you're Jason M Craig (05:34.979) Yeah. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (05:44.648) you're you're experiencing a liturgy that's ancient and profound and every aspect of it is carefully carefully crafted, you know, and full of truth and beauty. F families, the music, everything about it, you know, it's it's a whole the the aesthetic is is very important. It's not it's not an extra bonus, but, you know, that's one of the traditional truth, good goodness and beauty are kind of three traditional qualities of that that draw you to God and that one has drawn me in particular. Jason M Craig (06:19.192) So you were sort of, I guess, prepped at a young age to appreciate beauty. You were you say you were drawn to it, but so that when you encountered I guess the expression of it in and sort of the fullness of the church, that you like there was something that just I don't know, it echoed, it rhymed, sounded right, felt right. But you also had so you're that's great, 'cause it's it's that's sort of the best of both worlds, that there is the Joel Trumbo Tamburn (06:24.883) Yes. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (06:36.647) Yes. Jason M Craig (06:45.952) I I I know I'm I'm a convert, so I know the moments where your sort of intellectual foundations that you were really firm in get really shaky and then this big, beautiful church comes marching in, this thing that I you know, you never thought you'd be a part of. just saying, Yeah, let me tell you why that's shaky And so I had I had a I had different conditionings. I wish I was more conditioned by beauty, but I think I was Joel Trumbo Tamburn (06:54.332) Mm-hmm. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (07:06.129) Mm-hmm. Jason M Craig (07:13.102) predisposed to God by just spending a lot of time in the woods, which has its own form of beauty, which which I know that you know. I want to get to talking about your actual place in your homesteading and stuff, because that is just so you know I was almost late for this because we right right outside the door on the other side of the this camera, there's a door and I had to send everybody away because we were killing pigs all morning. And we do it. It was like right there. So I want to talk about that. That sounds fun. But so Joel Trumbo Tamburn (07:22.931) Mm-hmm. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (07:36.051) Excellent. Jason M Craig (07:41.824) As far as the the that now I I'm just really impressed with some of the stuff that you're like the way you're start starting to understand and present craftsmanship, especially and the need for beauty, for culture. Is this is just it looks like just really amazing. Now I know things can look really great on the internet. I always tell people if you wanna have the veil lifted, just come visit my mess and it's you know. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (08:05.405) Yeah. If you have a lot of kids, that's always you know, that's always in the background. Or farm or both. Jason M Craig (08:09.196) That's or or a farm. My yeah, my my farming yeah, we're both my farming mentor told me, you know, farming is basically just moving piles around. That's just what you you just move piles around like that that seems to be true. But so you've also got though, you're you're you're big into traditional craftsmanship proposing that So is there is there some sort of connection between soldiering and craftsmanship that some people are missing, or was that also a conversion or was that a an awakening or was that just just in you as the same time? Like when when did that happen? When did that become important part of your life? 'Cause you're telling me about being a child being oriented towards you know, being drawn by beauty and oriented towards this the spirit of the warrior. so where does the craft where does the Saint Joseph come in here, you know, a little more in the workshop kind of guy? Joel Trumbo Tamburn (08:48.883) Mm-hmm. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (08:57.955) that might be a little bit more obscure. There definitely is a connection, I think, but it I think it would be at the level of participation. so what what drew me what drew me into the military was a desire to a desire to participate or do something myself in in in that regard. So I didn't want to just read about great warriors. I wanted to be one. And I wasn't wasn't even a particular w I didn't want to go fight in a war necessarily or this war in particular. It's just it was more like I I wanted to push myself into participation in that life. Very arduous kind of life. I wanted to test myself and be part of a brotherhood that's doing that. That's that's part of the community the brotherhood that I wanted to belong to of men who are like that. Who they're not y are you familiar with the the man in the arena by Teddy Roosevelt? Jason M Craig (10:01.399) yeah. Yes. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (10:04.887) yeah. So that that kind of idea. I wanted to be in a community of men where that that's their outlook. They're gonna step into the arena and do the arduous things. When it comes to craft though, because I'm drawn to beauty, I love beauty, but I also I don't want to just look at it. or or or appreciate it when I see something beautiful, sp or something very clever if it's really cool. I I love DIY projects too. When you can make something really I'm always thinking, I I wanna I wanna try that or I wanna see if I can do that. I wanna participate in it. it's very participatory for me, the draw. And so I think it is connected kind of obliquely to craftsmanship, but Craftsmanship is is just stepping into the arena, you know. You can anybody can well, nowadays not anyone can appreciate beauty, but in our human nature, ideally, you know, everyone can appreciate beauty or observe beauty, but to be able to to see it as a invitation to participation, I that's that's part of my personality, but I think that's also a part of like cultural masculinity. that is very important and something that's that would be good to recover. We're very c accustomed to being consumers, meaning a lot of things are presented to us and we are expected to just sort of observe them without participating. And I always wanna I I would much rather want to do it. I would rather be in the mix and try it myself or see what I can make, you know. Jason M Craig (11:42.124) Yeah. No, I think I think you're on to something 'cause I think when we did the swordsbait issue on competency, we did one on that and it was really stirring to me thinking about my own father who worked in construction and how how different it is when I guess wherever we w you know, learning those things in the in the world of construction, wherever you are, you sort of are in a in an active role, not passive, you know, because you know how the thing works, you know how to fix it when it's broken. So in a certain way you have like this sort of d you know, that dominion of man is actually there. Whereas if you're just purchasing the thing or the service to like get what you need, it's by definition, it's more passive, right? Consumerism is more passive. And I do think at a certain point it just becomes emasculating to not be able to inhabit your domain actively. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (12:18.931) Mm-hmm. Jason M Craig (12:38.424) To not be able to do anything. And we and that's that might sound, you know, that's romantic. That's cool. But actually, I think there's a fundamental problem that we might not recognize till like a century from now, that we actually can't be men that are not continuing to create as you know, God places Adam in the garden and says, Hey, keep doing what I've been doing. You know, we can't stop doing that and continue to be men. I just I I'm with you. I don't I don't think it's just for a select few. I think it's a fundamental part. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (12:39.016) Right. Jason M Craig (13:07.646) Of the formation of a young man to be able to learn how to be, have an active dominion in his in his physical and actual place, just so that when he looks around, when he experiences it, he's not it's not daunting, it's not fearsome. He sort of has a know and he and it's not as if he's dominating, he knows it. I just knows how it works. It's just like, you know, it's just a simple knowledge. So that's awesome. So how did that how did you transition from and and I want to and then Joel Trumbo Tamburn (13:16.912) Absolutely. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (13:29.32) Right. Yeah. Jason M Craig (13:36.93) Yeah, I I wanna ask how did you transition to the crafts that you're making? And then also the things that you're making are beautiful. Were those hand in hand? Did you start making these on the side and go, hey, we should make this a thing? Or or did you just well like what was the sequence of events that went from, you know, w w when you weren't, you know, settled on your homestead to now you're sort of operating from what I can tell, operating completely out of and around this this this place? Joel Trumbo Tamburn (13:50.183) Ha ha ha. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (14:06.417) Yes. the sequence of events was pretty chaotic. I've for all of my military training I'm I've never been great at planning stuff ahead very well and anticipating things accurately. So I do a lot of shooting from the hip and the trajectory has kind of gone that way as well. so I got out of the military and I I had a hard time finding work and it was I I didn't plan I didn't do the setup very well when I got out. And so I actually built a tiny house the last like nine months I was in the army on a trailer. And when I got out we sold our house and we lived nomadically in the tiny house. which I w wasn't intending to do that long term. I just wanted to kind of do it as an experiment. The the concept fascinated me of sort of the the small living and and nomadic lifestyle. So I just wanted to try it as an experiment. We had five kids at the time. So we did that. I I don't think it was. It was challenging, but we all enjoyed it. It was we learned a lot from it. we had to we had to set things up in a certain way, you know. And so it I definitely don't think it's it's the way we did it at any rate would not be sustainable long term. But it was a fun experiment. We learned a lot from it. But I had a hard time finding work at that I had a number of places that Jason M Craig (15:07.256) Sounds like a mistake. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (15:34.278) Where it basically told me like, you're overqualified. And I was like, Yeah, but you don't understand. Like I need a I need work. I have to support my family. That's fine. so I eventually ended up going back overseas. I started I started working for a contracting company. I was doing mobile security for Department of State, primarily. So I was working at embassies kinda doing close protection for ambassadors and other and congresspeople and stuff like that when they were in in the Middle East or East Africa. I helped set up the the embassy security program in South Sudan during the Civil War down there. so I was I mean that's w kind of where my skill set was and that's where I could get a job. and that was a well paying job. I I was making decent money doing that, but I was also gone like nine or ten months out of the year overseas. So I didn't want to do that for the long run and I was trying to figure out how to kind of make a break from that. And I had been I had been doing book art stuff, like I said, since I was a kid just for fun, you know, like making notebooks and things like that or even illuminating small small text. So I had been doing that kind of style of art and getting into the book binding for years and years. Had no no thought to do it for anything related to business, even like a side business. But when I was trying to make the break from contracting, there was an opportunity We we moved out to the homestead eight years ago. We got this place. And my kids were going to a small Catholic private school in town at that point, which I could afford back then. and like a year after that, they had a their their middle school teacher was leaving and they had an opening for a teacher. And they said, you know, we need somebody to to come and teach. And I'd actually wanted to teach Joel Trumbo Tamburn (17:35.454) For a long time we'd home schooled I and even when I was deployed, I would still I would still like make lessons and things for my kids and do stuff with them over Skype. I was always very interested in being significantly involved in their education, but was rarely really ever able to do it because of how much I was gone. Or I wasn't able to do it as much as I would like. So that opportunity came up and I was like, That would be awesome. I would love to do that. I could be I could teach at a school, I could be home, and I would be with my kids all day. They would be in my class, I could do the teaching, it would it would check a lot of boxes there. The problem was it's a very small Catholic private school and the pay was, you know, was for like a basically a college student or a recent college graduate. it was it was a humongous pay cut from what I was making contracting to the point where it basically would jud like barely cover my mortgage payment. My my salary would barely cover my mortgage payment and that was it. And so I wasn't I thought about it and prayed about it for a while and and I basically said like I I think this would be a great thing to do, you know, Lord, and I'm gonna give it a try and I'm I'm gonna try to make it work, but I'll I'll need some help to kind of square things away, but I'm gonna trust that if if I'm supposed to do it, you'll let that happen. And so when I pulled the trigger there and and jumped over to start teaching, I decided to try out basically make a a side business of some of the books I made and see if I could sell any of them and and maybe kinda make ends meet. And so that's how I started getting into the craftsmanship side from the from it was from necessity and poor planning more or less that I got into it in in a business way and it's kind of just grown from there. Jason M Craig (19:22.85) So you're doing that full time now? Joel Trumbo Tamburn (19:24.987) I'm doing it full time now. Yes. Jason M Craig (19:26.764) Wow, that's exciting. So yeah, just back to your tiny house comment. It's amazing. I I have a number of homesteading dads that I know that started with like tiny houses and they would say, Yeah, maybe like you. Not maybe not not at a mistake. We had to learn a lot, but that became it it almost fits more romantically with someone without a growing kids because all of a sudden that's you know, we were in for a while thirteen hundred square feet. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (19:40.562) Mm-hmm. Jason M Craig (19:56.62) And we got to like nine people and it's like this is this is this is very difficult. to your to the Joel Trumbo Tamburn (19:56.659) Mm-hmm. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (20:02.259) Yeah. You gotta you have to do a lot of stuff outside. Jason M Craig (20:06.082) That's right. Well, I've got five boys. I'm like, hey boys, you what you have to do outside? You know, you need to leave the toilets free. Okay. For the civ for the civilized people. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (20:12.593) Yeah. Well, ev we did most of our cooking outside, you know, or kind of daily activities, which was partly why we wanted to do it. Like I think that's actually a good thing. If you can kinda Jason M Craig (20:23.35) Yeah, that's great. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (20:25.073) almost constrict it to force we want it to be more outside and do more of our sort of daily activities outside. So it's actually kind of good to to make that happen. But just logistically it yeah, it's not feasible with a lot of people unless it's like very perfectly crafted, which mine was not. Mine was, like I said, a little bit more fired from the hip. So I it was a concession actually because I Jason M Craig (20:40.707) Yeah. Jason M Craig (20:44.942) I think Joel Trumbo Tamburn (20:48.717) I was trying to convince my wife for like two years that I wanted to move into a teepee when we got out of the army and try that. And she she wasn't a big fan of that idea. I'm not sure why. she said something like, That's not a real house, like you can't live in that. I was like, What are you talking about? Families have lived in teepees for centuries, it's fine. so after like two years of unsuccessful negotiations, she said, all right, we could do something small, but it it does need to be at least a hard structure. Jason M Craig (21:00.268) Yeah. What's wrong with her? Jason M Craig (21:18.049) At least Joel Trumbo Tamburn (21:18.245) And so so that's why I did the tiny house on the trailer to kinda square that circle. Jason M Craig (21:22.466) Wait, how yeah, on a scale of one to ten though, how close were you on getting her to the T P? I mean that Joel Trumbo Tamburn (21:28.235) realistically I don't think I was close at all. yeah, I don't think she was interested in Jason M Craig (21:30.582) Okay. man. I that's a man after my my son yeah, I have this opinion that there comes a point where a young man when he well when a boy is becoming a young man, he doesn't need to be basically surrounded with the same walls as a as he was when he was a boy. Like something needs change about his atmosphere. And so I think I'm putting one of my I think they're all gonna start just like living in a tent out back. And I thought maybe. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (21:52.476) Mm-hmm. Jason M Craig (21:59.042) Maybe we should do a T P like kinda out in the woods. Yeah, yes. That's I've I've been calling them Joel Trumbo Tamburn (22:01.319) Yeah. Make a little make a little village out there. You know. That's what we're we're working on. Go ahead. Jason M Craig (22:09.282) I've been calling them savages for all these years anyway. So I know that's very, you know, not PC, but they could just all right guys, if you're gonna be sa just go out there. Just go live and cook. I think they would love it for a while. We're gonna we'll try we'll try to make it more monastic. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (22:21.105) I think they would. That that's kind of what Yeah. We're we're working on something similar. We're actually building little tiny cabins for all the the high schoolers. so I have three of the high school boys right now that live in one excuse me, one cabin. Out in the yard, but eventually we're gonna we're gonna kinda add add them in there as like a cluster and make a little village so that once once you're at a certain age you can kinda move out of the house and it's I mean there there's no utilities or anything in there. They're just like literally little rustic cabins were built. They're so small, you know, they're basically outbuildings, but yeah. Jason M Craig (22:57.516) Wait, you've already got these things built. They're out there now? Joel Trumbo Tamburn (23:01.477) We we have one. I I have some more I've been meaning to do more and have had too much on my plate to get around to them. But eventually yes, we'll have a little village of Jason M Craig (23:12.714) Okay. All right. So we're in the we're in the club of fathers that are building shanty towns for their children in the back that I'm in a I I have a friend, he was a Marine, he had his son out, just got a simple canopy tent, like real, real good thick canvas. He just stretched it and he lived lived under that for a month. But I like the little cabin a little more long term. That's just sounds like more infrastructure than I can afford right now. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (23:18.727) Yes. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (23:30.066) Mm-hmm. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (23:35.528) Mm-hmm. Jason M Craig (23:39.854) Okay, s so our tell me then, sorry to be jumping around, but this is fascinating. the you said you were making books and you wanted to see if you could sell these books. Describe what what you know, some pe 'cause I I'm an author, so I say I wrote a book, but you're not writing books. You're you said I'm making books. So wh what do you mean by that? Joel Trumbo Tamburn (23:39.953) Yeah. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (23:50.653) Mm-hmm. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (23:58.94) Yes. primarily illustrating them, I suppose you could say. that goes back to the childhood thing. I I was always really captivated and kind of obsessed with medieval illuminated manuscripts. And so some of the books I was reading when I was young, actually Beowulf was the first one I remembered this with. I think I was about ten. My dad was doing a class in old English for the school he taught at and it was a high school class, but he let me sit in on it 'cause he knew I'd be interested. and so we were reading Beowulf and and he was teaching some of the old English and that was I think my first exposure to it. And I remember being being ten. At the same time in our home school we were learning about the the medieval period and illuminated manuscripts and I've been looking at a lot of examples of that and while I was in the Beowulf class I remember thinking, like, this is such a awesome story. This is so cool. And wouldn't it be great if there if there was a book like this but done in that style? And so Jason M Craig (25:00.758) Mm. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (25:01.765) I think I was I was that old when I decided I wanted to do that. I wanted to make an illuminated version of Beowulf. And so I actually like fiddled with that and did different kind of ideas and sketches and styles and stuff over the years. It's just like an ongoing running little doodle project I had in my head. But I actually Actually finished it a couple a couple of years ago and so I I published that as a book. It's it has the original old English and it has the modern English translation and it's it's illuminated in the style of the Anglo Saxon period like the Book of Kells or Lindisfarne Gospels, that kind of that Celtic Saxon style to go along with the with the setting. yeah, so it's it's go ahead. Jason M Craig (25:43.18) That's so cool. Jason M Craig (25:47.394) Was that Keep going, keep going. No, keep going. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (25:52.466) Yeah, so the style is more right now it's mostly medieval medieval texts. I'm working on some King Arthur some of the King Arthur stories right now. I'm doing Gowan and the Green Knight later on this year. I just finished up a a little illuminated prayer book in the in the style of the Book of Kells. It's one of my favorite styles. It's such a good one. but yeah, so when I'm making books, it's it is More on the artistic side. Some of them I do by hand. Like I'm actually hand painting and handwriting the books and hand binding them. but I'm also I'm also publishing them, you know, as like commercially manufactured ones as well once I've once I finish them. So that's what I mean by making the books. Jason M Craig (26:37.068) Yeah. Well was that was there one like was there one that you know when you made the leap from teaching and doing this sideline that it just took off and you're like, All right, I c I can do this. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (26:48.851) not really. I started more with doing hand binding. So I was doing rebindings for people or just like binding up blank stuff, like journals and diaries. I got into medieval binding. I did a lot of books for myself for my library because I was finding a lot of cool you can find Old PDFs and scans of medieval and renaissance texts, you know, on like archive.org. There's so many awesome books out there. And I found a bunch of of really good ones. And I just had the thought, like, man, I would love to have this in my library. Obviously, I'm not gonna go spend like eighty thousand dollars on an auction website to get an original, but I can just have this the scans printed off and then I can bind it up and make it myself. So I started doing that. the first one I actually Like publish published was the Illuminated Gospels. I did four the four Gospels in Latin and English in the Celtic style. That was I think three or four years ago. and that was the first one that I used I use I wanted to actually print a bunch of those. And so I used crowdfunding. That was the first time I used crowdfunding to do that. I was like, okay, I'm gonna need like twenty-five, thirty thousand dollars to actually get a whole bunch of these printed. And so so I used Kickstarter for the first one and was able to fund that and and get them printed and published. And I've done that subsequently with a couple other ones. Jason M Craig (28:17.592) Man, that's so are you are most of these being just they're just sold online, people are finding you organically? That's Joel Trumbo Tamburn (28:23.655) Yep. Yeah, it's mostly mostly people who have found or supported one of the Kickstarter or or crowdfunding pro in the past. It's mostly that audience or or people who kinda come into it and jump on, you know, a new one. I'm doing I'm doing a couple of books every year, like this is this is my next project. And I've been doing it the same way of trying to do like a crowdfunding fundraiser to get the funds to have them printed ahead of time. And then while I'm while I'm working on the hand done original, so that when that's finished I can I I can publish them and send it out to the backers. Jason M Craig (28:50.734) Mm-hmm. Jason M Craig (29:00.77) Gosh, I'm so that I have so many questions. I mean, are you you're you're kind of looking through these archives? I mean, are you when you're doing this now, y you were interested at a very young age, but now you have children. Like it's almost as if you're probably just hunting them out, like, I really would like this for my son, 'cause there's probably I mean, I that 'cause that's what occurred to me when you were describing the gospels, you know, like I want my kids to treasure the gospels. And so what if they looked like a treasure? Joel Trumbo Tamburn (29:29.127) Yes. Jason M Craig (29:29.139) instead of something. So is that Yeah. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (29:31.793) Which is how they made them historically. Like that's the h the whole reason, you know, in the late so called dark ages or early medieval period, the the illuminated books were pretty much exclusively the gospels and the psalms. You know, later on they started doing they started illuminating other ones, but originally it was it was mostly liturgical texts. Jason M Craig (29:56.278) Hm. So is this so you're how how long have you been in the church? you're going back to your conversion? Joel Trumbo Tamburn (30:06.311) Nineteen y twenty years. Twenty years. Jason M Craig (30:08.748) Okay, so it's been a while. Has this has learn learning this art and skill, is this kind of giving you a vision? Because, you know, every we talk a lot about this. a lot of people say this. You know, we want to build Catholic culture, you know. and a lot of times, in my estimation, that actually sounds a lot like we just want to like brand our lives as Catholic culture. Like we'll just keep living the same, but we'll have a saint picture on the mug, right? Instead of Joel Trumbo Tamburn (30:21.619) Mm-hmm. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (30:34.737) Yeah. Yeah. Jason M Craig (30:34.777) Denny's or something, you know. So has this shaped how you view, you know, your like the actual building of culture? Joel Trumbo Tamburn (30:44.507) Yes. especially because of the the time periods at play in the the type of styles that I'm particularly drawn to. a lot of I'm trying to figure out how to say this without sounding critical or disparaging. What what you're describing with sort of like putting a you know, a picture of Blessed Virgin on something and like, okay, now that's a Catholic product or whatever. there there's a kind of there's a kind of like I see a lot of this in in kind of more of the traditional side. There's like a Baroque a fixture on on sort of a a Baroque Catholicism aesthetic and and ti it's very reactionary essentially is is what I'm trying to get at, where it's it's sort of defining itself against Protestantism on the one hand. And then as it as time progresses now it's it's defining itself more and more against against these these modern these elements of modernity. And but it's almost like a little it's like a snapshot or a little slice, you know, and so it very difficult for me to kind of exp articulate what I'm thinking here. an example of what I mean would be what I find going into, say, for example, medieval Catholicism. We want to talk about traditional stuff and and some sort of modern sensibilities, for example, against Islam, because radical Islam becomes, you know, at a certain point it becomes a very significant opposing force. And so very distrustful. And then you're reading St. Thomas and he's quoting Islamic philosophers frequently in the Summa. You know, th this idea of like he's he he's not and that's at a time Jason M Craig (32:45.1) He's in he's engaged with it. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (32:47.271) He's very engaged with it. And he's engaged with it realistically. And not that's he's not it's not syncretic at all. I mean, this is right after the crusade. So it's not like someone's they're trying to syncretize European Christianity and Islam at all. That's not what's going on. But it it is it's almost approaching reality and other communities, other faiths, other things like this from a position of of power and authority in in their own sphere, you know. He's addressing these Muslim philosophers, addressing the qualities of their their arguments and things like that on their own terms, not not having to defend everything's not defensive, you know. Jason M Craig (33:21.528) Mm-hmm. Jason M Craig (33:34.732) Yeah. But he's engaged. I think I yeah, I would Joel Trumbo Tamburn (33:35.372) and yet in in the early medieval period that that position of power Yeah, there there's a there's a strength and Jason M Craig (33:44.472) Sorry, my internet messed up there. Sorry, Joe. This bad spot there. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (33:51.527) Yeah. So I I think there's a strength and a vigor to Jason M Craig (33:51.832) Go ahead, Joe. My i my internet was messing up. Go ahead. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (33:56.691) Can you hear me okay? Jason M Craig (33:58.103) I got you now. Go ahead. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (34:00.902) Okay. No, I just think that there's a strength and vigor to the culture that it it does have a defensive or a protective element to it. You see that in a lot of like medieval monasteries being fortified. Like there's they did that for a reason, you know. It was not a safe time, especially the early medieval period or the so called Dark Ages. I love the Dark Ages because they were actually making incredible stuff then. Some of the most beautiful art and architecture. there's so many things from there. That's the age of heroes, you know. Any any kind of early medieval hero you can think of, whether historical or otherwise, that's that's the period they hailed from. That's Alfred the Great, you know, that's Charlemagne, that's all these characters, Charles Martel. it was a heroic age and that was cultural, that was Christian, and it was it it wasn't defensive in a in a sense of it wasn't fear based, it was very bold. And so it was protective because they're in a high thread environment, you know, and so they're they're making but they're they're designing things to be durable and to be able to survive these kinds of this kind of environment they're in. And so I see the modern age that we're in, which is sort of characterized by disposability, artificiality in conjunction with a very anti Christian worldview for the most part in all kinds of different ways. but a lot of the core elements of Christianity are despised by people who you know, they they sort of they long to inhabit a very artificial and ugly world. And so I think one of the best things that we can do that will simultaneously sort of preserve the culture, the patrimony, everything that's been handed to us. and also to put it forward more strongly and w into the world because it is appealing to the human soul, i is to step into craftsmanship, step into kind of look at the template of what they did in these other periods of decline, like the Dark Ages, and and try to inhabit that kind of life now as best we can. so I Joel Trumbo Tamburn (36:24.261) In that way I am kind of a a medievalist or or a proponent of the dark age mindset. I would love I would love a culture of people like Alfred the Great or Roland, you know, these I would love heroic people who are not just warriors though, people who are defenders, people who are creators, people who are craftsmen, who are building things like Bishop Shu Sugar, you know, building in France, kind of creating the Gothic style. that was built into like an originally a very fortified style. It was meant to last. It was meant to even be able to withstand siege. So we have to kind of look at the cultural landscape in a similar way, I think. but it doesn't have to be it doesn't have to be like Atlantic wall, brutalist or grim. It's not a you know, it can be it can be beautiful and good. And I think if we do it well, it will be, and that's actually going to preserve it and make it better. Jason M Craig (37:19.724) Yeah. I think if I would describe the maybe the difference between the mindsets that you're I don't know, you're tr you're trying to articulate is and you know, what what really was the character of these medieval men, the dark these men of the dark ages? Like what were they doing that we can do? And the answer is they were building stuff. I mean, I think that in one, and they were building stuff particularly it was particular to their time, but it was both it was beautiful, it was practical, it was Catholic. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (37:36.22) Mm-hmm. Yes. Jason M Craig (37:48.514) And they were building it. It was their place. It was their ownership. Which I think that's actually related to what we were talking about earlier. That Catholicism can't just be a sort of lifestyle brand or lifestyle ideal ideology against others. The place where Catholicism shines, right, is when we d this came up in your conversion. The place where Catholicism shines is the stuff it builds. And that's why it's so it's a great time to be a layman, is that we have an opportunity to really to build things and to make things. Because I know everyone's, you know, it's freaking out. There's lots of you know, whatever. The AI and everything. I'm loving watching AI just gobble up the internet and make it completely ridiculous. I think it's just gonna make real things I'm loving it. I think it's just gonna make real things more obvious. And I I'm actually fine with the the trajectory of the entire online world becoming something that you're never quite sure if it's real because it never was real. Right. So just let it become ridiculous so that and and if if it's anything, it's a place for us, you know, we're to use the matrix to escape the matrix so that we can en enjoy real things in a real place. and I think that that necess you know, your example points this home that the necessity of being rooted in a place and building what's necessary in that place. Instead of reaction, you know, they're not reacting to something far away. It's like, no, these are the actual These are our real threats. These are our real needs. This is because we know each other, we know our place. So in that philosophy you've developed, is that related to the whole Tamburn Manor thing? Like tell me how it that yeah, where where that was born from? Is that just, you know, the the name of this where you're gonna build these things out of, or or what what was your dream when you sort of thought that up or, you know, shot it from the hip, as you tend to do? Joel Trumbo Tamburn (39:14.259) Mm-hmm. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (39:37.416) Yeah, that was very much in in the vein there because I think you're right. I think the one of the things that Catholicism offers and one of the most important things, especially in our time, in any time, but now in particular, is is learning and stepping into sovereignty as human beings, as bearers of the divine image. You know, you mentioned the gardener as kind of the archetype. So there there's two adamic archetypes. You know, you have the first Adam and the second Adam. And the first one was placed into the garden. He's given dominion over heaven and earth and the sea. You know, all the realms. He's given dominion over it and he's told to tend the garden. be fruitful and multiply and attend the gardener. So you have the gardener archetype. and then you also have the second Adam, who's Christ, who is, you know, everyone he's a carpenter, but the Greek is tecton. He's a craftsman. He's a t it could be a builder as well. You know, tecton just kind of meant a a maker of things. So you are the I I view the Adamic archetype there in Adam and Christ. a as the the picture for humanity, for mankind, is you're you're doing two things. One, you are we're given this realm, this material realm, and we're told to manage it and stu it, we're given the authority to do that. And so that's where the Gardner archetype is, 'cause The the gardener, Christ talks about in the parables all the time. The gardener doesn't grow anything. He just he just manages the conditions for everything. That's it. He has the seeds, he knows where to put them. You know, he makes sure they get water in there. But it's it's the Spirit of God that does all these things. That's what makes the seed grow. The man just is there to tend it and to set the conditions. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (41:26.183) But there's also the tecton archetype as well, because you can also take that material things and you can create new things out of them by yourself. You can put your own intellect and will into giving form to these things. And that's what it that's what the craftsman does. So both of those are exercises of that that human dominion that is our birthright, you know, as human beings and as followers of Christ. We are and so to step into that. Is that's actually what's going to empower men in the way that they should be empowered, which is to be a full, a complete man in the image of God and to follow him. And that's going to, as a second order effect, that's going to build a strong and and virtuous society. That's going to build good families. That's all these other things are going to be a result of that if we are stepping into that. So Trying to do that in in your own sphere at whatever scale it is, that is that is the exercise of power that we are all called to, you know. we we like to kind of isolate power into the political realm, but that's that that's really well, I won't get into that too much 'cause I'll go off on a rabbit trail, but Let's just say I I don't think that is actually really where significant amount of power actually resides. I think it resides at a much lower level and it resides very intensely in the sphere that you are in. So if you have a household, your home in your household, that is your actual sphere of power. And you actually do have a lot of power there. You have the power to harm tremendously or to bring great good, you know, depending on how you're living your vocation. So that's We need to not be as focused out there and at at people who have fake power, you know, or want to make it seem like they have all the power and actually focus on the power and the vocation that has been placed in front of us, which we all have to some degree or the other, and and really try to land that and do that well. So Tamburn Manor is just that's me trying to do that with my place, with my education for my kids and my home. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (43:44.392) That that's it. Like that's what I'm doing. But it's a manor. You know, I called it that. Not it's not grand. Like I talked about earlier with the kids. If you come here, there's there's gonna be bikes down there. There's, you know, there's like scraps of wood in the driveway and stuff like that. It's not I'm not implying grand or anything like that, but this is my realm. This is my manor, you know, because it's my homestead. And so Jason M Craig (43:47.683) Yeah. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (44:08.549) I'm going to try to be the adamic gardener and craftsman of my manor. Jason M Craig (44:14.572) Yeah. I well I I can't agree more with the the thought of Again, I think this is where you know, the the brandings, the distractions, like the the so-called power that we're observing someone else having can make people be especially if you're living in this on the internet, it makes you feel powerless, right? 'Cause you don't actually have influence. And I think this is why so many men are tempted towards conspiracy theories. And I know that's a big topic 'cause, you know, some of them turn out to be true, but Joel Trumbo Tamburn (44:46.067) Yeah. Jason M Craig (44:46.37) To to sort of study and obsess about them, I think it's it's obviously like a form of I gotta re w once I sort of really know what's going on, then I've got power again. You know, but if you scratch the surface for a lot of people in in that realm, it's actually you're probably I mean, if you're really into that, you probably feel a little bit powerless about a lot of things. And the way to th like the obvious way to be human is to Joel Trumbo Tamburn (44:56.104) Yes. Jason M Craig (45:11.23) exercise dominion over your domain, right? To be Lord of the manor, so to speak. And say, Well, what does that mean? It doesn't mean at all. But then men can just, well, I'm just gonna take charge, take charge and be a jerk. You know, it no, it actually means you're probably just gonna build stuff and bring order to things that need order and be a loving presence and a father that's, you know, making stuff with his kids. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (45:17.447) Yes. Yeah. No, I I agree with you, especi Joel Trumbo Tamburn (45:36.446) Yeah. Well that that's one of the things I really v value about my time in the military in a special operations unit. You have the one of the things that you have the great opportunity for is being around really good leaders. very strong men who are v very good leaders. And you see what that looks like. And you'll probably also see what bad leaders look like. And so you know, a lot of those lessons are very applicable in the family realm too. The the you know, the sergeant major or the platoon sergeant in a in a company or a platoon is he's not trying to he has to his job is to set the conditions so that his unit can be as effective as possible, that everyone can have what they need to do what they need as effectively as possible. And That's it's not really any different than headship in any other field. Like that's that's what you're supposed to do. If you're the guy, you know, it's not about exercising your will. It's about making sure everything is optimized. And sometimes that's that's directing people because as the leader your job is to is to kind of shepherd people who maybe are not going there themselves or don't know that's where they need to go and that is your responsibility to to shepherd them that way. But yeah, that is that is what it is. You're not it's not about making your way the only way or making you feel good about things. It's about whether this is actually serving its ends well and needs are being met or not. And if not, you need to reevaluate it. Do it better. Jason M Craig (47:14.222) So I don't know the age of your kids. Are you seeing them as, you know, do because a lot of people they might be homesteading because it's a good environment until their kids launch. but for others, I don't know if this is you, I'm interested, is is this a place that you would like them to continue to inhabit and build with you into generations? Joel Trumbo Tamburn (47:26.227) Mm-hmm. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (47:37.2) I would I would like that a great deal. I I'm not going to I don't expect that of them. I'm not gonna hold them to that. but i it would it's always gonna be on the table. It's gonna be something that I'm I'm gonna hold out to them, you know. and we have we have a good enough size area here that we can do that pretty effectively, I think. You know. I've also thought about Jason M Craig (48:00.694) Yeah, that's Joel Trumbo Tamburn (48:03.227) with regard to the idea we talked about earlier with kind of building the little village out there. we have not pulled this off yet, but I had the thought a while ago that I would like to do a senior project for all the boys their senior year is have them buy them like a half an acre, you know, not necessarily here but proximate to here. And their senior year they're building their own cabin on it and kind of starting a homestead. And that will be their senior project. And so when they're done, they actually have their own place. Whether they want to keep living there or they want to do that, you know, or if it's just, you know, like a vacation a camping type place or whatever they want to use it for, it's it will be in their hands. But to have had the experience under their belt of what it takes to do that and to actually have something that they built that they can utilize in the future, even as a launching point, you know, even if they're just a young single guy Jason M Craig (48:30.115) Hm. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (48:57.927) living in the cabin, you know, and just starting out looking for a job or whatever, that's fine. So yeah, I'm open to that. I would love it if they were if some of them at least would would stick around and and help it help it continue to grow. Jason M Craig (49:02.338) Wow. Yeah, that's cool. Jason M Craig (49:11.308) Yes, as as we've been rooted here, there's you know, there's a number of other families that have I mean not a I mean, it's not huge. I don't wanna e exaggerate. It's not ev people visit I think they want to see like a you know, a little village and a random procession going by to the church. It's it's not there, but there are people that are here. and the more we are here, the more we've we've really flipped the script a little bit to say, actually we are presuming that you're going to stay here because that's natural. and that actually has given them the freedom to say, Of course I would the thing I'm building that I'm told is important, worth preserving, family, place, neighbor, well of course that's the very thing that I would continue to treasure by being faithful to it, you know. So we've th they have the the opportunity if but basically it's natural Joel Trumbo Tamburn (49:40.423) Right. Jason M Craig (50:03.276) to continue to build what you've been building with your father. And it's perhaps supernatural, the calling, or extraordinary would say the least, to to be called out of that. and it's a it's almost a certain there's a certain kind of freedom that kids can also have 'cause we think of freedom as well, I'm not going to tell you what to do when you get older. there's actually a freedom to say, well, of course you're going to inhabit the thing you're building for the long run. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (50:03.389) Mm-hmm. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (50:27.612) Mm-hmm. Jason M Craig (50:27.768) 'cause that just makes sense unless there is an obvious and extraordinary and perhaps God ordained an obvious reason. so that I I really like your idea of your senior project, you you're gonna build this thing, you're gonna inhabit it, and the the natural outcome is that you just then you live in it. That because that makes that's actually really normal and natural. I think we need to continue to tell our ourselves, our culture, our neighbor, our children's that it is Joel Trumbo Tamburn (50:44.732) Mm-hmm. Jason M Craig (50:55.018) normal for the faith to continue and s and a culture to continue generation to generation in a singular place, right? And that it's not a not a restriction of human freedom to just like say that out loud. okay, so then the long view of that, you you've got grandkids, what what what kind of story do you want them telling about Tamburn Manor? Joel Trumbo Tamburn (51:01.853) Right. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (51:06.568) Yes. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (51:17.123) I don't know. I I I think I I suspect that when they're little at any rate, I think that y grandpa is gonna s maybe seem like a little bit of a pirate to them or something. Jason M Craig (51:20.43) Ha. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (51:36.636) like that. So my my great grandfather, I remember him when I was like four. I think he passed away when I was four or five. but he was a he was a moonshiner and a bootlegger during Prohibition. And just just like a sweet old man. You know, I knew him in his late nineties when I was little, but it in my mind he he's he was kind of a pirate. You know, he's up there in the mountains doing his thing. so I think I don't it's difficult to kind of anticipate what society's gonna look like in twenty years or what their experience growing up is gonna be like, but whatever it is, I'm pretty sure we will be well out of the mainstream so that their their memories are gonna be that like my parents grew up, you know, in this place and grandpa's grandpa's out there, he's a weirdo doing his thing. Jason M Craig (52:28.461) Huh. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (52:29.863) Something like that. But I I think it'll be a lot of fun. We have we have kids who come out every week. We do a little forest school here on our property. And we've had we have other families who bring their kids out once a week and being able to see the change in these young kids you know, getting regular time out in the woods every week over a season. physical their their like physical dexterity improves, their their character, they're developing intrepidity and and and attention, all kinds of things. And you can just see that happening by itself. We're really not doing anything. We're just putting them in the woods and letting them run around and play. but it it happens so well in in the woods, in nature and more and more the parents have have noted the changes that their kids have had just coming out here and being on our place once a week. So I think I think that will be significant and compounding in the long run with my children and other children who are coming here. And then when my kids have kids, you know, I'm I expect they're gonna be out here a lot. But I think it's gonna be it's gonna be a very valuable and important place to them, not just because of memories, but just like structurally. It's it's gonna be it's actually designed to kind of help them optimize their development as young people. That's my hope at any rate. Jason M Craig (53:50.014) That's well that's beautiful. Okay, so there may be a a parting question here. 'cause you've given me a lot of time and this is we're we're really grateful. But the you're that forest school you're trying to describe sounds a lot like the the first atom, right? That's you're just putting putting them in the context where, you know, formation it just happens and I can I can relate to that. I think I I think just time in the woods saved my soul when I was a boy. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (54:11.496) Yes. Jason M Craig (54:19.51) So but what's the Joel Trumbo Tamburn (54:19.731) It's a lot of little kids in this generation that don't get that. You know. It's it's not something you can assume or take for granted anymore. Like it was when I was growing up, you know. Jason M Craig (54:23.522) Yeah, no, it's and I and I know that you Well, you are Yeah, well this this this'll get to my question because that's that's the thing that's the one thing that I I I think to myself, you don't want to make yourself the this everyone else's story. Well, this is how it worked for me, but I'm thinking, no, actually you really do have to have your time in the woods to be fully human. But then my question would be if that's kind of the first Adam, you know, the thing that you're doing with children, 'cause I asked about generations and that's what came to your mind, this forest school thing. but what's the one like craft, what's the one thing that every man should learn or at least try, in your experience as a craftsman? Joel Trumbo Tamburn (55:08.701) Hmm. I I would I would probably go with I'm shooting from the hip again here a little bit. I would probably go with something relating to woodworking. something building or construction or even even joinery and like furniture type stuff. I I think that's it's kinda one of the lowest barrier to entry. kind of forms of craftsmanship you can get into. It's also one of the most variated. I mean, there's there's like endless varieties. There's even even specific cultural spheres of that. I I am a little bit addicted to like Japanese carpentry videos if I'm on X or something like that. The algorithm fi figured me out 'cause I I can't if I see the you know they're cutting very precise joints and the crazy joints that I don't know how to cut. I w I don't I do mortis intendon type stuff. I've never done that. And so I have to watch. I have to see how it goes together, you know? so there's so much variety you could do with that. Everything from building like massive timber frame barns and castles, you know, down to making little cabinets. So I would say that that would probably be a most useful and and ideal for a young man to get into. Jason M Craig (56:31.758) Sorry, Joe, I lost you for a minute, but I think it probably got recorded. So can you hear me now? Okay. Well, I think that's I think that's good advice. You're b the if we're gonna hit the two atoms, if those are the two archetypes, which I I'm in agreement with. I think there's something you only learn from nature, from the soil, from stuff that you have this the stuff you have power. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (56:37.649) Yep, I hear ya. Jason M Craig (56:56.478) over, but then as you work with it, you realize how little power you have because you're really just tending to the thing versus also the what happens when you go from nothing to something working with wood. I think that's why every b every boy, I mean come on, you give him a stick and a pocket knife and he's going to make a spear. You know, you're gonna start somewhere and eventually you can beat that spear into so to speak, into a a a craft, into a home even one day. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (57:11.699) Mm-hmm. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (57:19.218) Yeah. Jason M Craig (57:26.822) Joe, thank you so much for being on the Swords Bade podcast. I can't tell you how how much I appreciate what you're doing in the culture that you're building where you are. Joel Trumbo Tamburn (57:36.497) I appreciate it. You having me on. I enjoyed it. Thank you so much. Jason M Craig (57:40.418) And if you guys that are listening appreciate the Sword and Spade podcast, make sure you go ahead and become a member of Fraternist. You can hear about all kinds of stuff like this through the magazines, the publications, and even the daily Sword and Spade, where you can grow in virtue with your brothers. Maybe we'll get Joel on board and he'll join us and we'll we'll do that together and build something together. Thank you for listening. God bless, pray for me a sinner.