Latest / Authentic Living / Gender Parity and the ROR: Return On Relationships with Emily Nichols

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Gender Parity and the ROR: Return On Relationships with Emily Nichols · Authentic Living

• 0:01
  Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, a place where we have as conversations about
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  things that really matter in our lives.
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  And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
• 0:36
  Hi, everyone.
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  It's Roxanne Derhodge.
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  Thanks for tuning in again this week.
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  Today, I have a colleague, Emily Nichols, and Emily and I are privileged to be able to the
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  members of the Canadian associates, you know, professional speakers.
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  Emily, welcome, to authentic living with Roxanne.
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  Thanks.
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  I'm so happy to be here.
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  I was actually able to spend some in person time with Emily.
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  This, last weekend where, the we had our social for, caps, like we call it in my backyard,
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  which was amazing just to catch up with everyone.
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  So Emily brings an amazing background and, I often say that It's amazing that we have the
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  younger generation coming up, and some of the things that she may have potentially or we'll
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  be touching on in her career.
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  I've probably lived with, for a lot longer being just a wee bit older than Emily.
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  And today Emily is a professional, a keynote speaker and special engineer.
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  So one of the the fields that impacts what she does with her speaking today and she's the
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  owner of a company called technical skills for professional people.
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  Am I getting that wrong, Emily?
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  Human skills for technical people.
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  Oh my goodness.
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  I I just said to her, make sure to keep me on track.
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  And, of course, I went off track.
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  So Emily, welcome, welcome, welcome, and I I'm I'm excited because Emily did something which
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  most of us as speakers are gonna do or are scared to do or will be doing hopefully soon.
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  She did a TED Talk, which was amazing.
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  And we will put the, the link in the show notes, but Emily Let's talk let's start there
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  because I think let's just dive in on the deep end of the pool as and and talked a little bit
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  about What made you think that you needed to share the message, that you shared with your
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  TED Talk?
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  Maybe start maybe tell people a little bit about it and then we'll dive right in.
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  Sure.
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  So the title of the TED Talk is what if we didn't have to be one of the guys.
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  And that talk, I I've been telling people it's been on my mind for months before the TEDx
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  actually happened, but on my heart for years, and it was a slow realization that I came to in
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  my career because, you know, I was quite comfortable being one of the guys in the early
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  years.
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  I was quite happy to, you know, do what I needed to to fit in and blend in, and it didn't
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  even really seem like that much of an inconvenience.
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  But, and and I expected equal treatment.
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  And I would say that in the early years, I mostly got it.
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  But over time, these small ways that, you know, you don't quite feel part of the group, you get
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  a little bit left out.
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  It kinda adds up.
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  And, There was a turning point, you know, in 2015, I was interviewed for National
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  Engineering Month, and I mentioned this in my TED Talk they asked me, Emily, what is your
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  dream for women in engineering in the next 25 years?
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  And I thought, like, holy cow, why should there have to be a dream for women in engineering at
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  all?
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  I didn't ask to be a woman in engineering.
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  I just wanted to be an engineer.
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  And, you know, I don't even wanna think about needing to needing a 25 year time frame to to
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  get to gender parity.
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  I mean, it's just something that we should have now.
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  And and we should have equal treatment now.
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  And, we should be able to be ourselves at work without having to be one of the guys now.
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  So, you know, being interviewed in 2015 kinda got my mind a little bit on this thinking and
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  then Yeah.
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  Things evolved.
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  And actually, the the catalyst was that TEDx McMaster You decided that their theme for TEDx
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  this year was going to be legacy.
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  And, you know, when we think about legacy, we often think that it needs to be something big.
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  We need to have a lot of money.
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  We need to do a lot of philanthropy.
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  But I knew that with this topic, I had something that would allow people to create a
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  legacy one conversation at a time simply by changing their words.
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  Let's talk a little bit about your background.
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  You talk a little bit about it, and I loved your story about your mom and, obviously, you
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  were seeing, females and in a very powerful way from a very, very young age.
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  So tell us a little bit about kind of your inspiration, and I can picture your mom and her
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  muckle ups, like, you know, you know, driving the tractor with 33 little girls kind of and
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  you were being like the little ducklings that were kind of imprinting kind of the some of the
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  things that you would have seen with her.
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  But tell tell us a little bit about your mom and the impact or potential kind of
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  coordination between what you do today and kind of the role that you saw your mom play.
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  Sure.
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  So, I come from a farming family and, I grew up on the same farm where my mom grew up,
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  actually.
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  We moved back to the home farm when I was about eight years old.
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  And we farmed as a family.
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  So there really weren't too many gender roles to observe, really.
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  When it came to the farm work, my mom and dad were both out there doing what needed to be
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  done and you know, you talk about my mom driving the tractor of the the visual that
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  comes to my mind is when it was harvest time.
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  And, you know, back when we used to take the grain to town in in wagons.
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  My mom would drive wagons to town to take the grain of the elevator.
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  And the only other people in the line out there at the elevator were men.
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  You know, and I just, I I always felt a sense of pride that, you know, my mom could do
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  anything And she had grown up also with only sisters.
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  So you see, this was a this was the 2nd generation where there actually weren't any
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  boys around.
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  So So as a young kid, I didn't really begin to understand that there were expected differences
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  in terms of gender roles at work, until, gosh, I don't know, later on in elementary school, I
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  suppose,
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  Wow.
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  Amazing.
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  And likewise, you know, my background is I'm, I'm from Trinidad and Tobago.
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  Very, you know, very traditional kind of situation.
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  My mom stayed at home with, us and my dad was, you know, a high level executive most of my
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  life.
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  But I was always told, you know, there's 5 there was five girls in one boy that anything
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  that I wanted to do was possible.
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  So for me, you know, like you, I grew up with all my male cousins, you know, climbing trees
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  and, you know, making experiments with things in the backyard and captions and stuff like
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  that.
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  But but also in my formative year, I went to a a school, which was an old school school.
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  And it was academically driven.
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  It was based on your marks that you went to this high school.
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  And they made us believe that anything was possible.
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  And in the British system was a concern about it, you know, was, under the British system, we
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  had houses that we all belong to, and these were all rooted to your sports days.
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  And, and they were all named after female women.
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  So, you know, at at 11, here you are, you know, kind of learning the possibilities, that and of
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  course, my, you know, cribbing oftentimes, I was a very, very, traditional, right, in their
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  roles, but I was being exposed like you to some things, even though my mom stayed home, with
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  us, our brother, you know, oftentimes had to compete with us because it was five of five
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  girls and one boy.
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  Right?
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  So we would make him do the things we wanted to do.
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  So it's interesting how some of those formats have little visions in your brain or even
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  exposures what it does and and then ultimately some of the career that you picked, which was
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  in engineering.
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  So let's let's dive into language because I love this.
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  I'm you know, I'm not just saying this, but I, you know, because we are professional speakers,
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  we have to look at people speak.
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  So I sat down the other day and got quiet and spent the time looking at this TED Talk.
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  And the message that bore through was the impact of language.
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  So I want you to share a little bit about how language impacts the capacity for us to move
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  forward in reference to the arena of parody.
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  Sure.
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  So the premise is that language is a signal to everyone around about what we're thinking, and
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  it's also a reflection of the expectations we have in our minds.
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  So, you know, my TED Talk is about gendered language.
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  So let's talk about the word guys.
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  That is kind of one of the focal points of my talk.
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  That word gets thrown around a lot in our society.
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  And not even just in in fields like engineering and manufacturing, but I mean everywhere
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  because probably Roxanne the last time you went to a restaurant servers are notorious for this.
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  Hey, guys.
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  How are we doing tonight, guys?
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  Like, you know, and it's, so you do hear it everywhere.
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  And it can seem like, oh, well, it's harmless.
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  Like, maybe some of your listeners are even thinking that, like, okay.
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  So so what does that matter?
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  A server reads you as, hey, guys, at the restaurant.
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  I think there are lots of scenarios where we accept it as being a gender neutral word and,
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  you know, that fine.
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  Fair enough.
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  But when you're working in a factory as I have, for many years and you are the only or one of
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  the few women, This word starts to be an emblem of of the the ways that you get, kind of
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  ignored a little bit or or left out.
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  Know, you hear about manpower meetings and man hours, and there are lots of, there are lots of
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  assumptions made there.
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  One of the places I worked, we were always trying to fill each role or all the shifts, you
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  know, with guys.
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  I need 6 guys for this.
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  I need 4 guys over there, you know, and and so when I say that our words are a reflection of
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  our thinking, most of us when we use guys in that context where the roles have been
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  traditionally filled by men, then that word allows our brains to continue to expect those
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  roles to be filled by men.
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  Right?
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  And, and so it it reflects the way that we're thinking.
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  It it doesn't open our minds to, I say, in my TED Talk, the full spectrum of people that
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  could do the job.
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  And so I started to notice how that word guys got thrown around in terms of filling
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  positions, in terms of you know, who can finish a special project?
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  Who has the special skills for something?
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  I need a guy.
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  Do you know a guy?
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  You know, these kind of things come up a lot.
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  And so in my talk, I'm trying to show people, first of all, what is the feeling when you're
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  hearing that word and it doesn't really include you.
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  2nd of all, what is the, what's the bigger implication?
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  And then, 3rd, what can we do instead?
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  Right?
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  So the bigger implication I like to remind people that that are words well, again, another
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  of the lines from my TED Talk, words shape our world.
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  Right?
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  So it's really this connection between language and actual concrete concerns, like do we have
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  personal protective equipment that fits?
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  Now for some of your listeners that might seem like a pretty big leap.
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  But think about a woman in construction and manufacturing where, really, they are one of
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  the only or one of the few on the site or in the plant, personal protective equipment tends
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  not to fit women very well.
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  I'm talking about things like safety glasses and respirators and coveralls and boots, all
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  the all the things.
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  And if safety equipment doesn't fit well, it's not safe.
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  Right?
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  And so I'm just trying to make this connection between when we say guys all the time, when we
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  throw that word around all the time, what do we end up ordering and keeping in stores?
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  The personal protective equipment that fits men.
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  And what kind of a building do we end up building?
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  The one that has the washrooms and change rooms and facilities for men.
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  You know, in our public buildings these days, we actually have regulations, telling us how
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  many washrooms we need for Well, in the past, we would have said for both genders, but, you
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  know, we're we're managing that in different ways these days, but there are actually no
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  regulations that say in private buildings, whether we have to build a washroom or a change
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  room for women.
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  And I've worked in several that didn't have equal facilities, for women.
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  So it's not it's the it starts with our words, and certainly that gives us that feeling of
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  inclusion, but our words are then connected to these other concrete concerns that we can fleet
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  point to in the world?
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  You know, it's interesting.
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  Right?
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  So I was in, an executive in health and wellness for, 20 years.
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  And I I'll give you a scenario, Emily.
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  And then, of course, I'm an executive.
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  I'm on bid teams.
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  I was in business and account management.
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  And, went into bid for, let's say, the municipality, for their business.
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  And I was the main person that was presenting.
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  So I go in and, you know, you do set up.
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  Everybody meets everybody.
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  And I am the only woman on the bid team.
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  And there's a board or or presenting to that's a 100% met.
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  So as we're we're coming in and I'm, you know, presenting and starting to present 2 of the men
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  on, that's on the board start to talk to 2 of the men that are on the bid team.
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  And the crossover was something related to a sport.
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  And that derail the entire presentation.
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  Oh.
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  And what happened was and we're talking psych we were talking psychological services that
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  we're talking for in municipality.
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  But it's interesting how you could see the shift sometimes, in just a context of that and,
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  you know, it was it's not a predominantly male dominated environment.
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  It just happened to me that I was in a on a on a a pitch team that week that was predominantly
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  male.
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  And how, you know, and then I had to basically corral the crowd back even though I was the
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  main focal point with all the information about the actual business.
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  So it's interesting.
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  It does play out to your point around presence, And then in turn, how things can just get
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  shifted because of commonality.
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  Mhmm.
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  Of course, what was a sport?
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  Let's guess.
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  It was hockey because it's a Canadian company.
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  And, so that happens so much in in other arenas, but in a mostly male predominantly,
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  industry, I could I can I've been in those environments, but to work in it, I can see how
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  language can create such a shift if we all start to think about what incremental role we
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  can each and every one of us can make in reference to language.
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  So let's talk a little bit.
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  You talked a little bit about the call to action for men in our lives.
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  So what tell me a little bit about what you think would be helpful for men that can kind of
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  move, you know, the the needle around further along in in reference to language?
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  Well, you know, it's like this.
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  Roxanne, when people hear me or see me, a woman in engineering, speaking about being a woman in
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  engineering, they often jump to the assumption that my target audience is women in
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  Engineering.
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  And I'm so glad you asked this question because My target audience is is not primarily women in
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  Engineering.
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  Certainly, I'm hearing from some women that this is an empowering message that they that
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  it's it's helpful that they can relate, that they feel like they're not the only one, and
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  that's fantastic.
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  But but I really think that well, less than 15% of practicing engineers in Canada are women.
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  So if I was only speaking to the women, I can't move the needle that much.
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  Right?
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  So that's the first thing is that just by sheer numbers, we need we need men to pay attention.
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  We need men to participate in making more gender equal workplaces and making women more
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  welcome.
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  Their words shape our world simply because of numbers.
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  And it's, you know, it's a challenge for men.
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  They they're by and large are in workplaces that work just fine for them.
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  And sometimes I say that when business as usual works well for you, it's really hard to see how
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  business as usual is not working well other people.
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  So starting with languages is a great place to start, dropping that word guys stop lumping the
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  women in with the men, we don't necessarily want to, always just have to fit in and blend
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  in.
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  And let's not forget non binary folks as well.
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  Right?
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  And we're not talking about a gender binary anymore.
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  And I made that point in my in my TED Talk as well because sometimes when people hear my
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  message, they might be inclined to revert to the old ladies and gentlemen, as a greeting.
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  Right?
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  And so I wanted to remind people that that that's not very inclusive either.
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  And if for a for a demonstration of why, I guess the thing is that I'm advocating for less
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  gendered language because I would love to see a less gendered workplace.
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  You talk about being in this bid meeting and being the only woman in the room.
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  And You know, sometimes I find that if, you know, the only woman in the room at work, you
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  know, we have challenges with that.
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  Like you described, what but it's manageable.
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  We can navigate it.
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  Now when the work world intersects with social occasions, now it gets really confusing.
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  One sales trip that, I sometimes tell this story.
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  I went on a sales trip.
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  I was, senior leader in manufacturing, and I went with the salesperson to visit a client,
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  and we arrived there the evening before we were gonna have the meeting.
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  So we all went out for dinner.
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  Together.
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  So now I'm meeting the client for the first time, and it's dinner.
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  So I decided I was gonna wear a skirt that evening.
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  And the assumption of the people we were meeting was that I was a salesman's wife.
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  You know?
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  And that's just that I find that really frustrating that, You're expected to you know,
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  at work, you can get by.
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  You can dress kind of neutral or whatever, and you're not gonna be wearing skirts and a
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  factory.
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  So no big deal there.
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  But then in a social occasion, you know, the idea of being a woman, people kind of expect
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  you to dress in a certain way, or if you do, then they they decide that you're not part of
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  the business you see what I'm saying?
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  Like, if it's it's confusing to navigate, we just need we just need the men in our lives to
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  to use inclusive language and open their minds to the many ways there are to be a woman or
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  better yet, like, let's leave gender out of it.
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  There are lots of situations where we can leave gender out of it.
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  Not not that I'm saying we should leave gender behind because it's important when we talk
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  about fit for personal protective equipment and and things like that.
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  But, when we're thinking about a job and who can do the job or who we expect to be in the
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  job, it it doesn't need to be a gendered thing.
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  Well, I remember reading Malcolm Gladwell's book, and he talked about Maestro's.
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  I don't know if you've ever read that particular bokeh, I forget which one it was in.
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  And he talked about with Maestro's, right, promptly men, and what they did.
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  He did.
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  They did the social experiments where they actually started to, you know, put the
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  Maestroves behind a white screen.
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  And what happened was that a woman actually was the Maestro behind the screen that won.
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  And even after she won, what happened is every everybody was still referring to her as mister.
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  Even though clearly she had blown everybody out of the water and she was trying to obviously
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  put that point across that if you see me or you, Emily, we're gonna automatically, you
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  know, make assumptions based on, what we see Right?
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  And, you know, and it it and that and we all have, inbred biases that have come from our
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  socialization.
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  And where there's so many things, you know, and that experiment was brilliant in that what
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  happened after that, the orchestras implemented that particular strategy so that then it was a
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  blind audition so nobody could make preconceived decisions prior to the Maestro
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  kinda going up there and, you know, doing his or her thing, they just was not able to see,
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  the gender pair, you know, the gender of the individual.
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  And now it's something that's done, globally with Maestro's.
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  So that's an example of of a oh, I'm gonna say a systemic shift that, you know, allow people
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  to recognize it's about, you know, who's the best person, with the skill to fit that
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  position versus all these kind of inherent next steps that we go through, before we kind of get
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  to the point where we get in front of that individual.
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  And I was I found that very, very powerful.
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  I believe it was, his for one of his first books that that particular experiment was in.
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  Yeah.
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  That's that's great.
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  And so let's tie that back to language.
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  Right?
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  It's it's it's an outcome.
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  And and so this is again, why I'm talking about languages because it's something that's
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  accessible to everybody.
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  That's a great experiment, but some people will say, well, I'm not a leader.
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  Or I don't have a budget or I don't make the policy.
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  You know?
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  And that's why language is such a powerful thing.
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  Again, going back to the call to action for the men in our lives, What if you start with your
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  words?
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  You know?
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  And by changing your words, you hopefully are changing your thoughts.
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  I mean, usually the thoughts come first and then the words.
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  And so if you're changing if you notice the words, then that it kinda works backwards to
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  change the thoughts and then forwards to change the words and then the actions.
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  Right?
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  So, if we if we change our words then that becomes a signal to other people as well.
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  And that's, you know, what you're talking about with the Maestro's.
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  We say the conductor, maybe instead of the Maestro.
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  Right?
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  It's a little bit more, gender neutral word perhaps.
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  And, you know, I think it's really fun to figure out what are the words we can use
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  instead.
• 24:24
  So, I said in my talk, you know, most of the time you can just drop the word guy.
• 24:28
  We we think we need a word to fill in there.
• 24:30
  Most times, you just don't need it.
• 24:33
  You don't need a word at all, but if you do need a word and I ran out of time, you know,
• 24:37
  it's I talk at be maximum 18 minutes.
• 24:39
  I have so much more to say about this, the kinds of words you could use instead, the ways
• 24:43
  you can be creative, in terms of referring to people as a group by where they're from or what
• 24:50
  job they're doing, you know, hey, podcasters or, you know, something like that.
• 24:55
  There are lots of lots of fun things we can do.
• 24:59
  But yeah, it's it's it's great to start with the words, and it's a signal to everybody
• 25:03
  around you that you really thinking about it.
• 25:06
  And this concept didn't come to me accidentally, you know, Roxanne.
• 25:09
  It's, my husband is an engineer as well, and, for gosh.
• 25:15
  We've been together 20 years anyway.
• 25:19
  And, I've been correcting him for a long time.
• 25:23
  Anytime there was a a generic, like, anytime he was referring to somebody who was not
• 25:30
  physically present, like, you know, the the delivery guy, the whatever, the landscape guy
• 25:37
  or something.
• 25:38
  You know?
• 25:39
  Well, are you sure?
• 25:41
  It's a guy?
• 25:42
  I would always ask him this.
• 25:43
  Like, anytime it happens, did you see the person?
• 25:46
  Do you know for sure?
• 25:48
  So this is a neat way to kind of disrupt people's thinking without being, you know, too
• 25:53
  critical because you don't want I like to do it as an invitation, right?
• 25:58
  And that's I don't wanna go around shutting on people.
• 26:00
  I like to do it as an invitation.
• 26:01
  So So, you know, adding little humor, asking people, well, aren't are you sure that was
• 26:06
  really a guy, then it kind of works.
• 26:08
  This was such a great interview that we decided to turn it into a 2 part series.
• 26:13
  Be sure to tune in next week for part 2 so you don't miss out on the amazing content.
• 26:19
  Thanks for tuning in to authentic living with Roxanne, creating the space for positive,
• 26:24
  healthy change.
• 26:26
  Roxanne is a keen speaker, psychotherapist, and coach to work with Roxanne, visit
• 26:32
  roxannedurhaj.com/blueprint.
• 26:36
  We'll see you next time.
• 26:38
  An authentic living with Roxanne.