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When Enough is Enough: Redefining Success in the Fast-Paced Marketing World · Serious Lady Business

• LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (00:03) Hey there, I'm Leslie Youngblood and this is Serious Lady Business, the podcast where we get real about what it takes to build a business as a woman today. From late night Google searches and client curveballs to the wins that make it all worth it, I'm talking about the stuff no one puts in the highlight reel. Each week, I'm bringing you honest conversations, lessons learned and stories from women who are out here doing the work. Messy, meaningful and unapologetically bold. Whether you're just dreaming about starting a business or deep in the grind, this podcast is your space to feel seen, supported, and fired up. Because let's be honest, this journey is hard, hilarious, and absolutely worth it. So let's dive in. Leslie Youngblood (00:52) Welcome back to Serious Lady Business. I'm Leslie Youngblood. I am so excited to have Katherine or Kat Holt here with us today. And we are talking enough is enough, redefining leadership on our own terms, how women can stop playing by broken corporate rules and start creating businesses, cultures, and careers that actually work for us. Welcome, Kat. I cannot wait to dive into this topic with you. Catherine (Cat) Holt (01:18) Well, Leslie, I am so happy to be here ⁓ because as you know, this is a topic that's near and dear to my heart and we need more conversations about it. Leslie Youngblood (01:27) my goodness. I feel like we could have a whole day and more conversation about this, but we have this one episode. And I want to really dig into your story. You have such a profound experience, Kat, and you rose to VP before the age of 30 at one of the largest agencies in Boston. What did that early acceleration teach you about the game of corporate leadership? Catherine (Cat) Holt (01:50) ⁓ Well, it's a very interesting question. I think I benefited from being agency side as I had my formative years in leadership and management only because despite Mad Men, there's a ton of women. Leslie Youngblood (02:06) Mm-hmm. Catherine (Cat) Holt (02:08) that are in the advertising profession. I do still see that the ranks of executive leadership are a little bit threadbare when it comes to women in leadership, but my experience was at Hill Holiday. And I was surrounded by extraordinarily talented, very smart women. And Karen Kaplan was in executive leadership, and she had risen from being a receptionist all the way up to the top position. Leslie Youngblood (02:16) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Wow. Wow. Catherine (Cat) Holt (02:35) So I think I benefited from some business role models that were there, but that also didn't mean it was easy. ⁓ Leslie Youngblood (02:40) Mm-hmm. Sure. Catherine (Cat) Holt (02:45) you know i did also have incredible support from early managers ⁓ and think that the shot out because i think mail advocates deserve shout out so so scott raab schnock and justin holloway i appreciate the time you spent with me is a little twenty-year-old know-it-all and gave me a lot of opportunities and i think what i was trying to do was to understand how to advance what i could do Leslie Youngblood (02:53) Yay! million percent. Catherine (Cat) Holt (03:13) as as possible. That's sort of a common theme for my life and I go pretty fast. And I was fortunate to get that promotion with another woman. She and I were both leading the strategy and account management for Liberty Mutual at the time. So Beth Doherty and I both got promoted. We were the same age and we were both 29 when it happened. And it also helped to have a peer that was going through this at the same time. So yeah, women in leadership, peer that was going through Leslie Youngblood (03:16) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Catherine (Cat) Holt (03:40) it that was also female and then those advocates really helped me. It was actually my 30s and my early 40s where I had to get a little bit smarter about the game. Leslie Youngblood (03:47) Mm-hmm. Ooh, yeah, tell us more about that because in our previous conversations when we were, you know, forming what we were talking about today, there was a moment where you said like enough was enough when it came waiting for promised opportunities that never came. Tell us about how because it sounds idyllic that early professional life, right? You have, you know, male mentors, female mentors, other women that are justice driven. know, you're all working together and it's camaraderie and it's You're doing fun stuff, you know, because marketing advertising is so fun and so creative. But then as we move into your 30s, things shifted or you started to see different things about the game. So tell us about that. Catherine (Cat) Holt (04:23) it is. I think because I was young, I thought I could do anything. And that's a blessing and a curse because it turns out I did do a lot of things. But also because I was a female and I think because I was on the younger side of the executive leadership, some of the organizations I went into, folks wanted to benefit from my skills. But they also thought that they could control. Leslie Youngblood (04:34) Mmm. Mmm. Catherine (Cat) Holt (04:54) And what I found was that the better I got at my job and the more respect I got or earned from my clients or when I corporate side at Progressive, my peers, the larger a threat I represented. To the folks that were my bosses. Leslie Youngblood (05:10) To who? To... Catherine (Cat) Holt (05:13) and others that were trying to get ahead and saw me as competition. Now what's interesting about me is I am my own competition. Leslie Youngblood (05:18) you Mm-hmm, sure. Catherine (Cat) Holt (05:22) What I've done before is what I'm trying to best. And I actually was talking about this with a friend of mine. said, I think I have these weird social blinders on where I'm not looking at the landscape and thinking I should have what they have. I'm looking within myself and thinking about how can I better what I do? And so I took that approach, but I think I broke a cardinal rule, which is you can't in most corporations and most Leslie Youngblood (05:37) Mmm. Catherine (Cat) Holt (05:49) companies, you cannot safely gain more influence than your boss. Leslie Youngblood (05:54) ooh, yeah, the hierarchy of influence and control. Ooh. Catherine (Cat) Holt (06:00) And that happened. And it happened with horrible repercussions. I found myself in hostile work environments. Leslie Youngblood (06:05) Mmm. Mm. Catherine (Cat) Holt (06:10) I found myself being berated or undermined on a regular basis. And so it felt like I was running a race in bare feet on glass shards. And it was hard and it was hard and you had to kind of show up and pretend none of that mattered to you. ⁓ And of course I had my internal competition. So I'm like, well, I'll do my best anyway, right? And so I think what ended up happening is Leslie Youngblood (06:14) Hmm. No fun. Sure. Right, sure. Right. Catherine (Cat) Holt (06:38) I earned successes and in the last sort of eight years, I was helping others make a lot of money. ⁓ And it wasn't coming to me. I had a lot of false promises about, you know, earning ownership in an agency that weren't followed through on. And I have a dear, dear friend, again, ⁓ a male supporter in my life that in March of 2021, we were sort of sheltered in place. Leslie Youngblood (06:47) Mm-hmm. Catherine (Cat) Holt (07:06) and COVID shutdown and wondering what's going to happen next. And he kind of threw down the gauntlet. He came to me. And I remember we were on a three season porch in my house and he was like one of the first people that had let in. So we had all, was March, so it was freezing in New England and we had all the screens or the windows open and he was on one corner and I was another and we were effectively shouting at each other. And he said, and he said, Leslie Youngblood (07:18) Aww. Right. Right. Right. ⁓ Right, sure. Like a, yeah, like a phone. Catherine (Cat) Holt (07:34) Exactly. And he said to me, because we've known each other for 10 years at the time. And he said, just stop. You have to do this for yourself. And he gave me a really kind offer. And he said, listen, if it's going to take me giving you 50 % of my time to make sure you do it this time, I will do it. ⁓ And it turns out he didn't think I was actually going to say yes. Well, I think it was like motivation. Leslie Youngblood (07:41) Mmm. Mmm. Mmm. Mmm. he was bluffing. Catherine (Cat) Holt (08:02) And I think he thought my like independence would rear up and be like, I can just do it. But I thought about it and I thought, you know what, it's better to do an entrepreneurial journey with somebody else. And he is a dear, dear friend and the way we think about business and particularly culture is so compatible. So two days later I said yes and he said, ⁓ crap. Leslie Youngblood (08:07) Right. here. Wait, what? Huh? Catherine (Cat) Holt (08:24) And then by September we had founded Kology together and it's coming on four years, actually September it is four years. So, and you know, that's hard, right? That's hard to stay around and we've weathered the challenges, but I did get to that point where enough was enough. But you know, I think that's common of women in our 40s. Leslie Youngblood (08:33) Congratulations! Happy birthday, Kalonji! I guess late 30s and 40s, feel like you just start. And I think it's so interesting what you said about how you were promised things that never came to be. And I think that's so typical of the corporate game that we play where it's like, we don't have the budget for your promotion or your raise or for this or that this year, come back and you're like, yeah, they love me. I got a great review. I'm going to stick around. going to, I love this team. I love this job. I love this company. I'm going to stay. Next year comes around and they push you off again. Catherine (Cat) Holt (08:49) It's fine. Mm-hmm. Leslie Youngblood (09:13) But it also reminded me that you can't always wait for that. Like there has to come a point because then you'll be retiring and you'll not have gotten to where you want to be. And I'm reminded of, cannot remember her name, but she was. Catherine (Cat) Holt (09:18) No. Leslie Youngblood (09:26) at Applebee's and maybe you saw this, she was on a podcast talking about this recently where she was, ⁓ you know, C-suite at Applebee's and working with the president and the CEO. He's like, yeah, you're going to be CEO one day. And she's like, awesome. And she did all this great stuff for Applebee's and she goes to him and she's like, yeah, I think I'm going to be, I think I'm ready to be CEO now. He's like, no, you're never going to be, you're never going to be that here. And she left, went to IHOP and was working at IHOP and found out that they were buying from the same vendors as Applebee's and essentially I bought Applebee's and she became his boss. And I was like, that's like the best story ever. Don't wait. Enough is enough. Stop waiting for them to pick you. Don't be a pick me, right? Like all that, like what the kids say, like a pick me girl, a pick me person. And it's like, you have to take action for yourself. And it's hard. It's not easy. It's so hard. Yes. So it's not easy. You think bravery is so shiny and Catherine (Cat) Holt (10:04) 100%. It's hard. It takes bravery. Leslie Youngblood (10:21) in movie-like and it's not in real life. It's scary, it's uncertain. so, especially when you're in the midst of a pandemic with like a partner and a trusted friend that's like, no, I think you should do this and I'll be there with you. So it does, I think, a wonderful thing to go into it with a partner and somebody that will be there on that path with you and understands the risk and the fun of going on a new adventure together. Catherine (Cat) Holt (10:23) Couldn't agree more. Yeah, and you know, the gift that he gave me was recognizing that his role as my partner was to make me successful. ⁓ And our entire protest has been that way. And so I think that helps too, because yes, he's there. But I know at the end of the day, I make the final decision. Leslie Youngblood (10:54) Mm-hmm. Sure. Catherine (Cat) Holt (11:05) And it's just enough of that extra support. And frankly, you know, he's really good at talking about, what if we did something else or let's poke holes in that, or where's the risk that's involved? And even just having that conversation, whoever it might be in your life, I think it's really critical for entrepreneurs. But going back to that, you can't wait. And then the uncertainty of not waiting, you know, two thoughts that came to mind for that. Leslie Youngblood (11:14) Mmm. Yeah. Yeah. 100 % Mm-hmm. Catherine (Cat) Holt (11:33) one is, know, for better or worse, I ended up finding myself in a position where financially I couldn't wait. And the reason is, is that I ended up having three kids, starting in my late 20s and early 30s, within three and a half years. And that changes the economic needs of a household, right? And I was living outside of Boston, very expensive market to be living in. And my husband at the Leslie Youngblood (11:40) Hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. ⁓ Catherine (Cat) Holt (12:02) now X was stay at home. And so all of it was on my shoulders and I had to find the next because I had to create that financial future for myself and for my children. And so that was another internal motivation which would never show up on the logical promotion path within corporations and companies. Leslie Youngblood (12:06) Mm. ⁓ Oof. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. right. Catherine (Cat) Holt (12:27) And then the second thought that came to mind is I've often used, I use metaphors to kind of understand the unspoken about the emotions we feel around really important times in our lives. And the one I use every single time is I feel like I'm in an Indiana Jones movie. I've gotten through the, you know, the booby traps up to the point where there's this gully. Leslie Youngblood (12:32) Sure. Right. Mm-hmm. Catherine (Cat) Holt (12:51) And you know you can get to the other side, but you just can't see the bridge. ⁓ And so I feel like my entire career, starting from when I left Hill Holiday, has been trying to throw sand on the bridge that I know is there, but I have to trust that it will actually hold my weight. Leslie Youngblood (12:55) Yes! Mm-hmm. Right. Catherine (Cat) Holt (13:09) ⁓ And I think that for me encapsulates that bravery of doing the unknown, going on a path that isn't scripted. And I really encourage women to do that because we tend to wait for permission, whereas our male counterparts assume they can do things before they can. So typically when women say I'm ready for the next step, they actually are. ⁓ And so you may not be in a place that sees that, but you know it and take Leslie Youngblood (13:26) Yes. Right. Mm-hmm. Catherine (Cat) Holt (13:37) that step. Leslie Youngblood (13:38) Yeah, you're probably more than ready, right? If you've been pushed to that point, whereas a male counterpart might've done it way before then because they are just raised to go and just take in. And I think that is so important to think about. yeah, that audacity. And we need to be more proactive about that and realize it's truly, that's all that sets you apart. They're not smarter. They're not, you know, like that you like are more clever, more creative or any of those things that we tell ourselves. Catherine (Cat) Holt (13:41) more. and be given. They're raised to be given. now. Leslie Youngblood (14:08) where you have just as much to give and share and validity within our ideas and our business journeys. And so I think that is so important. And I would love to hear, Kat, when it comes to that make it happen, you were very proactive in your professional corporate career when you pivoted to be that business owner. Tell us how that shows up for you now as an entrepreneur. Catherine (Cat) Holt (14:21) Mm-hmm. I am in love with it. Here's why I'm in love with it because what I realized that my drive, my ability to figure out the path to do the next step had been honed over years. The thing I was fixing was the cultural environment within which I was operating. And the gift of owning your own company is that you can create that culture. Leslie Youngblood (14:34) yay! Mm-hmm. Mmm. Mm-hmm. Catherine (Cat) Holt (14:59) And Leslie Youngblood (14:59) ⁓ Catherine (Cat) Holt (15:00) the culture that I've created with Dino is one that respects humanity, that wants to challenge people to be their best. We often see that they are more capable or more talented than they themselves know. And I am the worst or best, depending on your perspective, hero and outlaw, ⁓ at saying, no, you can do this thing. And they look at me with terror in their eyes. But the thing is that they always know that Leslie Youngblood (15:11) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Catherine (Cat) Holt (15:26) I am going to ask them to do something that they're afraid of, but they won't be alone in doing it. Leslie Youngblood (15:30) Mm-hmm. Catherine (Cat) Holt (15:30) I will always step in to teach to guide. If there is a week where it's not going to happen, I was like, do you want to tag me in? I can do it. Because I'm not going to ask them to do something that if they need help, I couldn't do for them. And so I think that that's really, really important. And the other thing is that I get to work with really good people and we can do really great work together. And if you're somebody that's going to show up in a way that brings aggression or breaks the trust, Leslie Youngblood (15:40) Amen. Right. Mm-hmm. Catherine (Cat) Holt (16:00) in a team or makes people feel lesser than, I can walk away. And I have, right? There are clients I've walked away from because the impact they were having on the team wasn't worth it. Leslie Youngblood (16:04) Right. You're the boss. Right. Catherine (Cat) Holt (16:13) ⁓ And so I've been blessed that for the four years I've had a group of people that have continued to work with me. And even right now I'm expanding and I'm tapping in on the folks that I've adored working with over the past 25 years and I am grateful and blessed that they're saying yes. But that's because of the humanity part and the lifting others up part because I see success. It's not a zero sum game. It's something that Leslie Youngblood (16:19) Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. Catherine (Cat) Holt (16:40) grows over time and it's not in competition with it's what we build together. Leslie Youngblood (16:44) Right, yeah, I completely agree. Why is it that I feel like these older, maybe more legacy, more established organizations have a problem creating that type of culture? And I know you said before, it's almost like a political dodgeball game in corporate leadership. Why does that happen? we've talked before, it shouldn't be, we're not saving lives, like in proverbially, right? It should be fun. Catherine (Cat) Holt (17:01) it is. No. Leslie Youngblood (17:12) It shouldn't be this hard. should be joy in it. like, and especially in advertising marketing, like this should be fun. Like why is like, why are you making it horrible? Like this seems like the easiest thing in the world. seems so obvious. Like what do you think goes wrong there? Catherine (Cat) Holt (17:17) 100 percent. You know, think it starts when we're really young and how society defines success for men versus women. When you think about success for men, it is competitive, typically in a sports environment. You know, they're socialized to do sports, and I did sports growing up. ⁓ Leslie Youngblood (17:35) Mmm. Hmm. door. Mm-hmm. Catherine (Cat) Holt (17:50) But even then, the notion of team was much easier in a female team than it is in a men's team. Because you still have the competition to be top seed. And I think they successfully were able to get ahead by putting others back and down. ⁓ Leslie Youngblood (17:58) Right. Mm-hmm. Mmm. Catherine (Cat) Holt (18:11) And from a women's perspective, we're socialized to do group and community, to help and assist. And when it's done right, which I'm blessed I have a group of women for whom this idea of raising each other up, you this notion of queen your crown's tilted, let's get that up before you walk into that room, we live by that. Leslie Youngblood (18:16) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Catherine (Cat) Holt (18:33) Men don't have that, right? And so something that you and I were talking about is some research that was done a number of years ago about why is it that despite stronger executive cues for that top spot within organizations, that CEO, why do we still have such a gap between male and female CEOs? ⁓ And so a researcher went in and took a look at it and ⁓ found that Leslie Youngblood (18:35) Okay. and Mm-hmm. Catherine (Cat) Holt (19:01) the rules of the game shift once you get into the executive direct record group. And those people that had been there to advocate and usually if they're males, when they become your peers, they shift the game. Leslie Youngblood (19:06) Mmm. Hmm. Catherine (Cat) Holt (19:15) And what happens in those contexts is oftentimes they're playing dodgeball. This is the researcher's terms, not mine. And the dodgeball is, hey, something is ⁓ looking like a threat to me and my ability to show that I am successful. So to distract from it, I'm going to throw a dodgeball at my peers. So they then are kind of on their heels and trying to catch the ball and be defensive and figure out what happens next. Leslie Youngblood (19:20) Mm-hmm. you Catherine (Cat) Holt (19:42) It's a very combative strategy. Whereas women, when they get to that environment, they feel bereft because here was there's mentor, friend, ally, and all of a sudden that relationship gets pulled out from underneath them. And it's very psychologically difficult for women to do that because it feels like the fundamentals of trust. Leslie Youngblood (19:45) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mmm. Mmm. Catherine (Cat) Holt (20:08) have been violated and typically it's a room full of men, right, because we still have that gap. They don't even understand that something was done that was distrustful. They assume that we know that game. Leslie Youngblood (20:12) Right. Right. Well, and they probably assume it's our fault. I did something wrong or it's a problem with me. Like we internalize it instead of realizing these MFers have totally changed the game on me. Right. And it's so frustrating, but it's so true. I can totally see it having been in rooms like that. Like, my God, that is so true. And I look back down, like if I'd only known this was just part of a different game, I could have handled myself. Catherine (Cat) Holt (20:24) Yeah. 100%. Which is not personal. Leslie Youngblood (20:45) It's not personal. It's just this business. Yes, game. I could have handled myself probably in a more like boundary or like, you know, just gotten my head more in that game, right? Like prepared myself mentally more for that game and understood. mean, truly, at the end of the day, it really is all a game, but that is so incredibly frustrating. Catherine (Cat) Holt (20:47) Mm-hmm. It is. It is. And you know what's interesting? Two things that came to mind as you were talking. One is women don't like throwing dodgeballs. And so right there, because of our moral compass, we tend to not want to play that game, which will put us at a disadvantage. Leslie Youngblood (21:11) Mmm. Thanks True. Yeah. Totally. Catherine (Cat) Holt (21:21) ⁓ And the other one, because we've been trained to overwork to get where we are, we overwork the answer of the Dodgeball it was sent, which gets us off of our agenda for what is truly going to define what our success is. Leslie Youngblood (21:25) right? Monday. Yes. Catherine (Cat) Holt (21:34) ⁓ And so it's almost like, you know, being a parent, I know you're a mom. You know, when a toddler has a tantrum, you kind of have to take away your attention for a little bit. ⁓ And I think what we inadvertently do is we treat that dodgeball as a ⁓ tantrum child, giving it too much attention when really what we should be doing is taking the mic away and saying, yep, I'll get back to you on that. Follow up in a nonpublic way and check that box. Leslie Youngblood (21:38) Yes. No. Catherine (Cat) Holt (22:03) because usually that's sufficient because typically there's not a lot of there there ⁓ it's just a distraction Leslie Youngblood (22:03) Mmm. Right. I'm like, damn it. Why can't I only go back in time? It makes so much sense. like look, and I'm sure, you know, listeners now look back at those instances where I'm sure everybody has had them, especially at this, when you are in your late thirties, forties, and you are ascended to a leadership role in an organization, you've seen some of these dynamics play out and it is wild because you think, what? It's me. It's gotta be my problem. Why can't I figure this out? And it's not you. And I'm so glad we're having this conversation and these conversations. Catherine (Cat) Holt (22:21) Yeah. Mm-hmm. No, it's not. It's never you. Like when somebody is treating you in that way, it's always about them every single time. Leslie Youngblood (22:40) Snap, ring, Right, right, like let them by Mel Raffens, right? Like let them, and like it's how you show up and how you react to it. Like let them do that. How are you going to be, you know, proactive about the situation? Because you have just, not that it's not you, you don't have power, you have all the power. You have that power and you don't have to give your power to that person. You get to choose how to react and deal with that situation, that person. Catherine (Cat) Holt (22:47) 100%. I love that. ⁓ You do not. Yeah, one of my really good friends who I did meet through my career, Wendy Trim, she and I spent a lot of time about eight years ago trying to figure out why we felt so crappy about things. And she had learned a lesson about what is it that we can control. Leslie Youngblood (23:19) Mmm. Mmm. Catherine (Cat) Holt (23:25) Because I think that women, because we are so community and socially minded, we actually over attribute our sense of control on things that are outside of our control. And so she said to me, there's only four things that you can control. It's what you say and what you don't say, and it's what you do and what you don't do. And I think as women, we have to have that going through our head all the time because Leslie Youngblood (23:36) Mmm. Mmm. you Catherine (Cat) Holt (23:52) A lot of times the answer is don't say and don't do. Because when you take the attention away, if it's a problem, it will persist. And if it's not, you've taken the fuel out of that fight. And frankly, you're saving your energy so you can put it to a place where you're making something that's better. Leslie Youngblood (23:54) Mmm, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Catherine (Cat) Holt (24:10) And I think that's critical for us. And then the other thing I was thinking about is the minute I learned that corporate America's game was dodgeball was the minute I knew I couldn't stay in it. Because my moral compass, my belief in respecting the humanity and others prevented me from being able to do that. I literally felt sick to my stomach. It was not good for my mental health. Leslie Youngblood (24:28) Mm-hmm. huh. huh. Catherine (Cat) Holt (24:37) And so instead of unwillingly playing a game in order to what, get ahead and have a salary, I took myself out and created something and you know, it's still a trial and error. I've adopted my business strategy twice now. I'm feeling really good about this one. But hell, I'd rather do this and be true to who I am and live my values. Leslie Youngblood (24:43) Right. Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Catherine (Cat) Holt (25:01) than to compromise it to support a game that doesn't suit most people and in particular don't suit women. Leslie Youngblood (25:08) Yeah. And I think that is the simplest yet most difficult thing in the world. And like once you see it and once you know it, there's no going back and you can't unsee it. could not. And you're like, no, what do I do? And we've all had those moments. Like I know I can pinpoint that moment for me where I'm like, like it literally, I felt like, like I was shaken. I was like, no, like, ⁓ no. Catherine (Cat) Holt (25:17) You can't unsee it. Mm-hmm. Leslie Youngblood (25:32) I can't do this anymore. What am I doing? Why am I doing this? You can't tell me this is the only way. And that's not, it's not. There's so many ways to be and you have the power to control it and walk away. And I think we all trick ourselves into thinking like we're in a cage, we're locked in a cage when there's no lock on the door to the cage and you can just walk right out. You can just walk on out. So Kat, tell us how all these like learnings, when it's come to Catherine (Cat) Holt (25:38) No, and it's not. Leslie Youngblood (25:59) having courage and not building even a dodgeball-esque type of situation with as an entrepreneur and founder. And it's very scary, right? There's a lot on the line, right? Like you're the one in charge that everybody's looking to you. You're keeping the lights on, you're paying the paychecks. You are leading a new game. leading a new team, a new community. Tell us what that looks like now for you, how you've built different based on all these things from the prior days. Catherine (Cat) Holt (26:10) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So I mentioned briefly before that it meant that I had to shift my business strategy a bit. And so what I've done is sort of walked a little bit away from on salary because in marketing and advertising, there are so much sort of cyclical nature of what types of business, revenue and so forth. And so what I've done, I used to have media planning and buying in house, but the trick with that is that most of it's digital today. And in order to do that really well, I would have had to invest significantly in platforms and technologies. And, you know, I love doing media planning. I love doing sort of the analysis, the understanding of reporting. But at the end of the day, I'm a strategist. I'm not a media strategist. And, you know, that's one of those decisions about what you don't do. And so I chose not to do that. And now I have a really, really strong partner. Leslie Youngblood (26:54) you Mm-hmm. right. Catherine (Cat) Holt (27:19) partnership with somebody with another organization that has created a little team that works on all of my clients. ⁓ And so what I've done is sort of spread this notion of team beyond the constraints of just collogy, Inc. as defined in corporate, you know, law into this network where it's mutually beneficial relationships. And that allows for us to have that flexibility to move Leslie Youngblood (27:25) ⁓ huh, huh. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Catherine (Cat) Holt (27:48) And in doing so, I am bringing my culture to those teams. I'm bringing my culture to my clients' teams, right? And so I see this as almost like the spreading of wildflowers. Leslie Youngblood (27:52) Mm-hmm. Sure. Totally. Yeah, yes. Catherine (Cat) Holt (28:04) because what we like to do and have enjoyed it is to be successful. And the more you can show you can be successful but not at the expense of others, the more addictive it becomes. And, you know, the business model will come. As long as the environment, the rooms, the Zooms and the teams, you know, those social moments allow for people to have a safe place to come and show up and work. ⁓ Leslie Youngblood (28:16) sure. Mm-hmm. Catherine (Cat) Holt (28:29) I truly, I just see the difference it is. ⁓ And maybe my profit margin could be bigger if I didn't do this way. Okay. Bye. Leslie Youngblood (28:32) Mm-hmm. Hmm, right, sure, right. right, if you got, went out and got investments or investors or VCs, sure, it could be a different game. It's the game that you, how you choose to build it. And I love that you just noted remote and zoom in, in that type. So Coology is remote first, correct Kat? Catherine (Cat) Holt (28:48) Yes. We are, yeah, we have teams in Boston, in Cleveland, and in Providence. with extended nodes across the country depending on what our makeup needs to be to serve the needs of our clients. Right now, I actually, there's enough folks in the Cleveland area where I'm starting to think, well, maybe it's time to get a wee work or something so that everyone can help each other in person. It's particularly important to me because we have a young person that's on our team. And what I've been finding is, you know, I'm trying to make those moments for Leslie Youngblood (29:16) you Catherine (Cat) Holt (29:27) learning that's observing learning instead of, you know, ask to do, do and come back, which I think we all benefited from. We were able to go and walk the halls, see how executives conducted themselves, just watch from the room without having a role in it. And in this Zoom world, we forget to include people just for that passive observation. And so I think that there may be a need for there to be some in person. Leslie Youngblood (29:29) Amen. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Catherine (Cat) Holt (29:54) to foster that bond, sense that we help each other and particularly learning from each other in a passive way. But I haven't done it yet, so who knows if I'm going to actually do it. We'll see. It's trial and error. Leslie Youngblood (30:03) Yeah. Sure, sure, sure. You know, I think it's so great. I feel like there should be a fact on this. I don't know the fact, but I feel like more female founded businesses are remote first. I think that's for a lot of reason, right? Where we found that the traditional workday structure was created by men looking to get out of their homes in a way and, you know, separate from the women. Catherine (Cat) Holt (30:17) Mm-hmm. who didn't have the extra labor in their homes. Leslie Youngblood (30:29) Right, right, exactly. And so it's, you we talked about, you said, Munchin' Mad Men earlier, right? Like these mad men got these beautiful homes in the country and took the train in and that's like, they got home at what time at night? I'm just like, that just blows me away that that was just how it was, but that's how it was. And so we had COVID, you know, this horrible, awful thing, but it forced us to learn that, we all can do this remotely. Or, you know, a lot of this work that we can do is remote, but. Catherine (Cat) Holt (30:44) Yeah. Leslie Youngblood (30:56) I do also believe there is so much to be said for and learned from when you are together. And so tell me more about that balance that you've incorporated because, you know, we definitely have seen these return to work, these forced return to work policies, which I think are BS, but I do understand the time. Yes, totally sexy. Catherine (Cat) Holt (31:05) Yeah. their sexist and their classist is what those policies are. And I will unabashedly tell you that. ⁓ Because both women workers and lower income workers tend to have more of an emotional and outside of work load that they have to manage. Leslie Youngblood (31:19) Mmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, tell us more. I am. Catherine (Cat) Holt (31:38) and the forcing into the office is making it difficult for them to show up in their lives successfully on all the aspects of it. Plus, you know, it typically means that there's, you know, in the instance of women, it typically means that they're having to fit commute in around a time when typically there's childcare, drop off, sports, teams, and if they can't be the one that does it, then they Leslie Youngblood (31:59) Yes. Catherine (Cat) Holt (32:07) have to figure out who will. And that's a mental load. you know, research shows that the more stress and mental load you have, your brain doesn't work well. You are unable to process information as quickly and it's very difficult to make decisions. There is literally decision fatigue. Leslie Youngblood (32:09) Mm-hmm. Mmm. Yes. Catherine (Cat) Holt (32:28) On the side of lower household income workers, which by the way corporate America is not doing its duty to lift up so that they have a pay that's in keeping with the needs and the cost of living, what that usually means is that they're having to commute more, longer hours on public transportation. Leslie Youngblood (32:39) right. Mmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Catherine (Cat) Holt (32:50) that may have delays and so you're robbing your workers of productivity time under this false notion that if they are not in the office, they are not working. Well, you just put a policy in that guarantees that your female workforce isn't going to be as effective at decision-making as they would have done if you had let them manage their workload alone and your lower household income Leslie Youngblood (32:56) Right. Right. Mm-hmm. Catherine (Cat) Holt (33:19) workers are going to not be able to give you the extra hours that they would have done otherwise. And when I think about this from an efficacy and efficiency model, I'm asking like, why? You know, and research has proven it. I mean, look at none at all. I think, you know, Iceland and maybe Sweden, I'm trying to remember the countries have done the four day work week studies and they have unequivocally proven Leslie Youngblood (33:25) And then. Right. How? This makes no sense. This makes no sense. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. ⁓ Mm-hmm. Catherine (Cat) Holt (33:50) that they get as much out of the workers. Why? Because when we don't have to stress about everything else and we have an extra day to get the other stuff done, we are better and more productive in those hours than if we were to have more hours in a force work environment, which by the way was created in the industrial revolution era. Like we're not in factories anymore. Leslie Youngblood (33:53) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Right. No. Right. It's is crazy. And even, you know, you could be, you know, middle class and you could be like an income level where it should be easy to find help or like to pay help. And you can't find help. Right. Or like and I feel like now with our parents generation and I and I never want to take away from them living their best lives, but they're not as present. I feel like the way that their parents were in our lives and we need them more because we are working. And so it's like Catherine (Cat) Holt (34:36) no no no. ⁓ 100%. Leslie Youngblood (34:41) Okay, these boomers are going off, living half years in all these tropical places and going on trips, amazing. I love it. But it's adding to the mental load of the kids with their grandkids. And it's like, okay, yeah, and I really feel like us millennials are underrated with everything we've had to deal with and go through in our lifetimes. This beautiful bubble of the 90s, or as we grew up in this bubble, as we entered into adulthood, all this crazy. Catherine (Cat) Holt (34:51) Ayakuhi! Leslie Youngblood (35:09) what's the like all these crazy once in a lifetime or unprecedented things started happening like in their lifetimes. One after another. mean, you know, we're recording in September. 11th is tomorrow. And I think like, my God, that really is crazy to think how long ago that was and how that rocked the world and our worlds, like our mental worlds too, you know? And so then you just continue to move forward and it's just never easy, right? But I know we all have the power to Catherine (Cat) Holt (35:13) Oh, it's been one after another. I know. I know. Leslie Youngblood (35:35) take control into, you know, have our own our lives instead of all those things owning us like as well. There's a lot of different tools and things we can use for that, but it's still hard. And then you have, you know, people that are barely, like you said, barely making a living on the wages that they're making and they're trying to find childcare and they're trying to get to like their job. Like it is just infuriating. Catherine (Cat) Holt (35:41) Mm-hmm. It is. And I will do a shout out to Xers too, because we're a little bit different in age and I'm an Xer. And I think that, you know, for me, the progression was Xers kind of said, well, we'll do it alone. And so I feel like that started a new model of parenting when millennials started to become parents. They were trying to deliver the life that Leslie Youngblood (36:00) Yes. Mmm. Mmm. Mmm. Catherine (Cat) Holt (36:19) their boomer parents were able to deliver in a completely different socioeconomic world. And what we ended up doing is putting so much work on ourselves because, you know, I'm an exer. I ran Farrell, you know, and I had a stay-at-home mom. And my grandparents would be over often. They had no idea where I was. Now I was a good girl. I was a good girl, so. Leslie Youngblood (36:25) Yeah, fascinating. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. Mm-hmm. my god. No. Yeah, right. But it's like, still get into kid stuff because you're a young kid and it's like, you still do stupid, silly things. I think about that too. And we're OK. But my gosh, like, I think of. No. Catherine (Cat) Holt (36:51) And we were okay. But you can't let our kids do that because the police would be at your door. Leslie Youngblood (36:59) I know, I know it's crazy. like we would just go off on bikes and our parents would not wouldn't know where we were. They didn't want to see us. They didn't want to know. And they would just trust that you would show up at dusk. It is like it's like when you think about it now, you're like, that is wild. That's crazy. Yeah, I know. I know. But it's. Catherine (Cat) Holt (37:06) They didn't wanna see you until dinnertime! No! And it's exciting and I miss it. I miss it. You know, I think about it because it was like, you know, these little mini packs of kids on bikes with scrapes and, you know, sweaty and drinking from the fire hose. And then also the dogs that we all let roam everywhere. Right. Like, I feel like, like they were like the neighborhood dogs and the neighborhood kids and they were kind of running amok everywhere. Leslie Youngblood (37:25) Yeah. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, right? You were the dogs. Right? Yes. Catherine (Cat) Holt (37:45) But we don't have that anymore. So we have that expectation on ourselves. And then as you mentioned, Riley, know, boomers have always been about making their life and they're crafting it now. And in their later years, they're going and traveling. if they have the ability, it's a little bit different for, Leslie Youngblood (37:55) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Catherine (Cat) Holt (38:02) you know, different racial background families and socioeconomic, which tend to still be a lot more blended. And in fact, what we see is there's actually been an incredible rise in multi-generational households in the last 10 years, which I'm getting excited about. But something else that I wanted to share with you is, you know, if we think back to sort of ancient tribal traditions of female and womenhood, the notion of it takes a village was true. Leslie Youngblood (38:04) Sure. ⁓ right. Catherine (Cat) Holt (38:29) So when I think about what we're trying to do right now, and I do attribute this to a very male perspective, is we are told that we have to do all of this on our own. Leslie Youngblood (38:40) Mmm. Catherine (Cat) Holt (38:40) And I think what that means is that we're not giving ourselves a chance to create our tribes and especially our women to come in and share. And I do see emergence of that, Like women coming together to do co-op childcare because the cost is too expensive or older women putting together money for a house. They all live together in this little, you know, which is done. ⁓ And that's delightful because I think it's a return to what it was. And I think it's a kind of Leslie Youngblood (38:46) in the news. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Catherine (Cat) Holt (39:10) making a different script that's going to be more healthy for women and honestly, I think for everybody. Leslie Youngblood (39:15) Yeah, sure. Now the good things about what it was then, right? The community. Yeah, for sure. Kat, for any woman who's listening right now who might be feeling stuck in a broken corporate system, how can they know it's time to make a leap or what would you say to them? Catherine (Cat) Holt (39:21) It's the community helping each other out, having flexibility, yeah. you So, I will get all woo-woo on you. think that you should definitely learn how to meditate. And it's going to be, if you're not accustomed to meditating, it's going to be uncomfortable at first. Leslie Youngblood (39:45) Mmm. Catherine (Cat) Holt (39:51) Because we think when we meditate we're going to enter into this world of silence and that doesn't happen. When we get quiet our brain goes loud. And so it feels like failure and then we say we can't do it. And you really just need to work through that because meditation isn't about quieting the brain. It's like acknowledging and letting those thoughts go until your system quiets down. Because when your system quiets down you hear your own internal voice better. And so... Leslie Youngblood (39:56) Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Catherine (Cat) Holt (40:18) The most critical thing about making major life decisions is to be able to hear your own voice. And I think meditation is a really big component of it. Now I'm not saying you have to go and meditate for hours, like 15 minutes a day is a really great practice. ⁓ The other thing is you have to kind of think about what the expectations you're living up to and whether they serve you still. Leslie Youngblood (40:32) Mm-hmm. Mmm. Mmm. Catherine (Cat) Holt (40:44) And I can't remember, there's a great book, it's really old, I think called I Could Do Anything If I Only Knew What It Was. And I mean, Leslie Youngblood (40:51) I love it. Catherine (Cat) Holt (40:52) it's old and I've like come back to it a couple of times because I've exercised it in there. Pretty sure this is in that, which is you have to also make very conscious, unconscious expectations and voices that we hold in our head because a majority of them are going to be planted there by others in our lives, like our parents, our peers, our bosses, our children. And you kind of have to spend time to write all of that stuff down and say, Leslie Youngblood (41:05) Hmm. Yeah. Catherine (Cat) Holt (41:20) all right does this expectation serve me and if the answer is no what new expectation serves me better and that almost is as important a job description as the functional description in a job because I think if you haven't quieted yourself listen to yourself and then make conscious the unconscious that is our cage Leslie Youngblood (41:35) Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Catherine (Cat) Holt (41:46) it's going to be very difficult to know. And then the last thing I will say is you're never going to know for sure. And so you gotta just say if your heart is singing for it, you feel like you're living by your moral compass and you remember, well, so what if it doesn't work? I'll do something next. ⁓ I think that it's always better to take that step. ⁓ Leslie Youngblood (41:49) Mm-hmm. Mmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Catherine (Cat) Holt (42:13) I have never regretted any step that I have taken. Almost every single one of them was very hard to do. Actually, every single one of them was hard to do. But thank God I did. Because I can literally say with great joy and happiness and gratitude that I am living my best life and it is my life for me is not one I would ask anyone else to do because it's been put together by parts and pieces that matter to me. Leslie Youngblood (42:16) Mm-hmm. Sure. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Catherine (Cat) Holt (42:39) ⁓ And so it's my story and nobody else's. And I think that's why I'm internally competitive because no one can be a better me, only me. So that's what I would say to them. Leslie Youngblood (42:43) Yeah. Right, right, I love them. I love that so much. And I think that that's so true because we get so stuck in our heads and we carry so much emotional load of our families and our friends and our teams. And it's like, but you can change your mind. Like no matter what, you can change your mind today. it's like, it doesn't have to just be like a hair collar or a nail polish. It can be like, a lawyer today, tomorrow I want to be a senior. Okay, figure it out. Catherine (Cat) Holt (43:04) You can. Leslie Youngblood (43:14) Right? Like don't let, I do like so much agree with you that meditating can really like, and you feel like, I think I want to quit being a lawyer and be a singer. Why? Like, like dive into that and like dig in because something like, I love what you said, it makes your heart sing. Like something is like calling to you, right? That you can explain and sure it might feel like it, you might think it sounds crazy, but it, there is something so important there that you really owe it to yourself to follow. So no matter what, I just love it so much. Catherine (Cat) Holt (43:28) Meow. Well, and sorry, one more thing about that is keep it quiet. Let it sink in. Let it grow and build on its own. It's almost like you're cocooning and protect it or incubating that idea. Because the minute that you ask others if their opinion, it's going to take you off your course. ⁓ so keep it quiet until it's something. Leslie Youngblood (43:47) Yeah. Mm. Mm-hmm. Totally. And people will most likely say that's crazy. And I always want to people if people say it's crazy, it's probably the right thing. Because most people don't want to rock the boat. They want to just, know, and they're focused and, know, and that's fine. I think that's again, like that's wonderful for them. But if you are thinking and feeling something different, that's that's because you're different. And that's a beautiful, beautiful thing. Right. So. Right, exactly. ⁓ Catherine (Cat) Holt (44:07) Right. Right, well you've tapped into your own power. Right? And so when you encounter a person who has done that, when you're a person who hasn't, you scare the crap out of them. Leslie Youngblood (44:35) Right. Yes. Yeah, you do. Let's go scare the crap out of people, I love it. I love it so much. Okay, as we wrap up today, we'd love for you to share with our listeners where they connect with you and Coology outside of this podcast. Catherine (Cat) Holt (44:38) I scare more people. Sure. You can find my website, which I'm in the process of rebuilding. Hopefully by the time this airs, it's going to be done or it's never done. Right. It's always a work in progress. www.coo.com. Please feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn and just say, I heard you on the podcast. I know who you are. And then I'm also investing in building out my sort of sort of ecosystem of thoughts and ideas, which is Leslie Youngblood (44:57) It's never done, never done. Catherine (Cat) Holt (45:19) called Brand is Business, which you can find under Kat Holt at Substack. So if you want more ideas that intermingle with some of the conversations that we had here and also the application of psychology and business strategy and brand and marketing, go check it out, subscribe, and hopefully I'll keep you interested. Leslie Youngblood (45:36) Fantastic. We'll also put those links in the show notes below for our listeners to get. Thank you so much, Kat. What a fantastic conversation. You're amazing. Let's go scare the crap out of people. I think that's a perfect point to end on. And cheers. We appreciate having you here on Serious Lady Biz. Catherine (Cat) Holt (45:39) That's great. Leslie, I love it! Thank you. Everyone onward. Leslie Youngblood (45:54) I love it. Leslie Youngblood (45:57) Thanks for tuning in to Serious Lady Business. If you loved this episode, be sure to follow or subscribe so you never miss a moment of the real, raw, and really wonderful sides of female entrepreneurship. And hey, please leave a review if you're feeling generous. It helps more amazing women find us and join the conversation. You can also connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube at at Serious Lady Business and get all of the updates at SeriousLadyBusiness.com. Until next time, keep showing up, keep building, and keep being your seriously amazing self.