Latest / The You Project / #2235 Science and Religion Had a Chat - Dr. Bill Sullivan

Transcript

#2235 Science and Religion Had a Chat - Dr. Bill Sullivan · The You Project

0:00
Speaker 1: G'day, team. It's Harps and it's Dr. Bill. It's your project.
0:04
Speaker 1: It's 8.03 on a Monday here in the thriving metropolis
0:06
Speaker 1: of Melbourne. What time is it over there in the PM, Doc?
0:13
Speaker 2: It's six in the evening over here, so around dinner time.
0:17
Speaker 1: And it's Sunday evening, correct?
0:19
Speaker 2: That's right.
0:21
Speaker 1: Are you good at relaxing on the weekends or do
0:23
Speaker 1: you work?
0:24
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm great at relaxing. Well, even if I do
0:28
Speaker 2: have to do work, You know, I'm very disciplined about
0:31
Speaker 2: getting that job done. Yes. And then I can go play,
0:36
Speaker 2: you know, and relax.
0:37
Speaker 1: What does your off switch look like without divulging state secrets?
0:41
Speaker 1: But what is you, like, where can you, where do
0:44
Speaker 1: you most find that calm and that lack of everything else?
0:51
Speaker 2: You know, this might sound strange to a lot of people,
0:53
Speaker 2: but probably not to you, but my favorite off switch
0:57
Speaker 2: is getting outside and And running through the nature trails
1:00
Speaker 2: around our neighborhoods and going for that kind of jog,
1:05
Speaker 2: being back in touch with nature. Yeah, it's a little exhausting,
1:10
Speaker 2: but it's exhilarating at the same time. And I feel
1:13
Speaker 2: so much more refreshed and energized when I'm done. So,
1:20
Speaker 2: you know, it's tough to tell people, hey, I go
1:22
Speaker 2: run a few miles and that's my off switch. But
1:26
Speaker 2: there's a lot of truth to it.
1:28
Speaker 1: You'll have a lot of resonance on this show with
1:31
Speaker 1: our audiences very much. I would say more than 50%
1:36
Speaker 1: would be nodding their head going, I'm a bit like you,
1:38
Speaker 1: and I love that. Australia is interesting because we are
1:42
Speaker 1: just this gigantic island with all of this crazy nature,
1:47
Speaker 1: but most of us live in little suburban enclaves, right?
1:51
Speaker 1: And so every, not everyone, but a lot of people
1:53
Speaker 1: around the world think that probably 80%, 85% of Aussies
1:57
Speaker 1: live kind of in a forest or just looking at
2:01
Speaker 1: the ocean. And while most of our big cities are
2:05
Speaker 1: on the ocean, of course, we do spend a lot
2:11
Speaker 1: of time in the suburban and the urban jungle. And, yeah,
2:15
Speaker 1: where I live is about 700 metres from the beach. So, yeah,
2:19
Speaker 1: I go to the beach every single day. Yeah, I
2:21
Speaker 1: just walk.
2:22
Speaker 2: I would love to be able to do that.
2:25
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. It's beautiful. And it's like, there's, yeah, anyway,
2:30
Speaker 1: it's not an ad for Australia, but it is beautiful.
2:33
Speaker 1: Like our beaches, all of our coastal kind of towns
2:36
Speaker 1: and small towns and all the places in between. So
2:40
Speaker 1: I can, you know, that, that it is cliche, oh,
2:44
Speaker 1: time and nature, it's therapeutic and the energy and the,
2:46
Speaker 1: but it's like, it's absolutely true though. I don't even
2:50
Speaker 1: have to try to come. I don't have to think, okay,
2:53
Speaker 1: let's do some box breathing. I just need to get
2:56
Speaker 1: there and it happens.
2:59
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, you don't have to twist my arm
3:02
Speaker 2: to go out and do it. And even though my
3:04
Speaker 2: choice is to go jogging, even just, you know, a
3:07
Speaker 2: walk through the woods, it replenishes what I don't know
3:11
Speaker 2: the name of the psychologist, but he called it vitamin N,
3:15
Speaker 2: vitamin nature. Get out there and get back in touch
3:20
Speaker 2: with nature, take it all in, kind of absorb the scenery.
3:24
Speaker 2: And you, it's, it's kind of magically replenishing.
3:30
Speaker 1: Yeah. And it was maybe the same. No, I don't
3:34
Speaker 1: know who said someone you're not in nature. You are nature.
3:37
Speaker 1: You know, it's like, we are nature in the middle
3:39
Speaker 1: of nature. Like it's, it's way, way, way more familiar
3:47
Speaker 1: to our bodies and, you know, evolutionarily anyway than concrete
3:51
Speaker 1: and buildings.
3:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that touches on it. You know, we've
3:56
Speaker 2: spent way much more time, our ancestors spent way much
4:00
Speaker 2: more time out in nature than they've ever spent in
4:05
Speaker 2: cities full of concrete and steel. And, you know, they
4:09
Speaker 2: weren't accustomed to locking themselves up in these mobile boxes
4:12
Speaker 2: and scurrying around from one place to another. They actually
4:15
Speaker 2: walked or ran everywhere. to those places. So I think
4:19
Speaker 2: getting back in touch with nature really taps into something
4:22
Speaker 2: in our evolutionary history that resonates with our biology and psychology.
4:28
Speaker 2: And that's why they call it vitamin N. It really
4:30
Speaker 2: is a component of our lives that we should not neglect.
4:36
Speaker 1: I wonder if there's a hypothesis around the time that
4:39
Speaker 1: we don't spend in nature now, considering what our ancestors
4:44
Speaker 1: did over the last 300,000 or whatever it is or
4:46
Speaker 1: so years. I mean, they only spent time in nature really.
4:51
Speaker 1: And well, you know, for the most part, and now,
4:56
Speaker 1: you know, you can make 20 year olds that have
4:58
Speaker 1: never been on a farm or never been in a
5:00
Speaker 1: forest or, you know, never, never swum in the ocean
5:04
Speaker 1: in some cases, you know, and, and I wonder what being,
5:08
Speaker 1: The nature that we are being connected from nature, capital N,
5:13
Speaker 1: I wonder, you know, the psychological and emotional connection, if any,
5:18
Speaker 1: to that. I feel like nature is literally healing and therapeutic.
5:22
Speaker 1: And when you never go there, maybe that's, you know, damaging.
5:27
Speaker 2: Well, some studies have been done that you might actually
5:30
Speaker 2: be familiar with. The first of which relates to physicality.
5:35
Speaker 2: So like, um, people who live in more rural areas, uh,
5:40
Speaker 2: or who grow up on farms, uh, tend to have
5:43
Speaker 2: less chronic disease. They tend to be less allergenic than
5:46
Speaker 2: people who are raised in cities. And, you know, um,
5:50
Speaker 2: scientists are still trying to work out what the reasons
5:53
Speaker 2: might be. Um, there's association with different microbiomes and the
5:57
Speaker 2: whole hygiene hypothesis, none of which is backed by strong evidence,
6:01
Speaker 2: but those are the leads that are currently being investigated.
6:05
Speaker 2: And one of the studies that comes to mind about
6:08
Speaker 2: how nature can be therapeutic in a very measurable way
6:14
Speaker 2: is that if you look at hospital patients and you
6:18
Speaker 2: have some that are kept in a windowless room and
6:22
Speaker 2: others that have a window that looks out to the
6:25
Speaker 2: forest or the plains and they see some sort of nature,
6:29
Speaker 2: the ones who have that window in their room and
6:32
Speaker 2: get a dose of this so-called vitamin N heal faster.
6:36
Speaker 2: They recover quicker. And I think there was also one
6:40
Speaker 2: study done in suburban areas, not suburban, excuse me, in
6:46
Speaker 2: urban areas, in lower socioeconomic areas with school children. And
6:53
Speaker 2: those who had access to recess in a park for
6:57
Speaker 2: like 30 minutes a day showed markedly better grades than
7:02
Speaker 2: than students who did not receive any nature during the day.
7:06
Speaker 2: So there have been some studies done. Those are the
7:09
Speaker 2: ones that just come off to the top of my head.
7:11
Speaker 2: And I might have the details a little wrong, but
7:14
Speaker 2: it underscores the point that, yeah, if we deny ourselves
7:19
Speaker 2: exposure to the environment our ancestors knew for millions of years,
7:26
Speaker 2: that's not going to lead to good physical health. It's
7:29
Speaker 2: not going to lead to good psychological health.
7:33
Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember one of those. I don't know if
7:34
Speaker 1: it was the one you were talking about, but there
7:37
Speaker 1: was a hospital and one of the floors where a
7:41
Speaker 1: recovery ward where certain post-operative patients would go to recover.
7:50
Speaker 1: I can't remember. Maybe it was a cardiac floor or
7:52
Speaker 1: whatever it was. But they were all up there with
7:54
Speaker 1: similar things. And one side was overlooking a park, a
7:57
Speaker 1: beautiful park. And the other side was literally staring at buildings.
8:02
Speaker 1: like the wall, like there was like a building wall
8:05
Speaker 1: 20 feet outside the hospital. So all you're looking at
8:09
Speaker 1: is bricks. And yeah, it was quite famously, I don't
8:14
Speaker 1: know if that's the right word, but renowned for people
8:17
Speaker 1: on one side of the building healed in or got
8:20
Speaker 1: discharged in three days versus six days on the other
8:23
Speaker 1: side of the building. And so there's a lot, yeah,
8:27
Speaker 1: I don't even think that's, debatable you know it's like
8:32
Speaker 1: I'm going up to see my mum today and she
8:34
Speaker 1: lives in the country and driving from where I am
8:38
Speaker 1: which is still nice but I live you know I
8:41
Speaker 1: live 20-25 minutes out of Melbourne CBD so out and
8:48
Speaker 1: kind of bayside area but it's still it's very very
8:51
Speaker 1: you know it's densely populated there's buildings everywhere and by
8:55
Speaker 1: the time I get about 30 minutes out of the city,
8:58
Speaker 1: I'm just looking at cows and paddocks and mountains. And
9:01
Speaker 1: it's just like even driving through that, even driving through
9:07
Speaker 1: so all I can see other than the cars, but,
9:11
Speaker 1: you know, either side of me, all I can see
9:13
Speaker 1: for a lot of the trip is just nature. And
9:16
Speaker 1: it's just, yeah, just doing that. Not that I've measured it,
9:19
Speaker 1: but I reckon my heart rate and my blood pressure
9:21
Speaker 1: come down a little bit just even doing that. You know,
9:25
Speaker 1: no other variable.
9:26
Speaker 2: That's a good thing.
9:28
Speaker 1: All right. So you wrote an article recently, which I
9:32
Speaker 1: was really curious about. So if you're interested, everybody, Dr.
9:36
Speaker 1: Bill writes for lots of different or, well, some different periodicals,
9:42
Speaker 1: but one of them anyway is Psychology Today. And he
9:45
Speaker 1: wrote a piece called Can't Get Along, Try Rejecting Free Will.
9:52
Speaker 1: What is that about? Let's unpack that. And why would
9:56
Speaker 1: we reject free will?
10:02
Speaker 2: Okay, well, those are big questions.
10:05
Speaker 1: Hang on, before you do that, let me give a
10:07
Speaker 1: summary of what it says, and that'll probably give you
10:09
Speaker 1: a nicer platform. So Sullivan argues that genes, upbringing, culture, experience,
10:15
Speaker 1: and unconscious processes constrain who we become. And that recognizing
10:20
Speaker 1: this may make us more curious and compassionate towards people
10:23
Speaker 1: whose beliefs differ from ours. This is in my wheelhouse, Doc.
10:27
Speaker 1: I love this. His practical point is fascinating. Well, there
10:30
Speaker 1: you go. As judged by AI, you're welcome. Stop trying
10:34
Speaker 1: to win with the facts and start trying to understand
10:38
Speaker 1: how the other person came to see the world as
10:41
Speaker 1: they do. You know, that understanding how others see the
10:45
Speaker 1: world is a part of my research and it's Yeah,
10:49
Speaker 1: so I would love to hear your take on all
10:51
Speaker 1: of this.
10:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I'll start by saying how this article grew
10:58
Speaker 2: in my mind. And it came from a seed that
11:01
Speaker 2: relates to my work at IU School of Medicine. I
11:06
Speaker 2: engage in a lot of science and medical communication. And
11:11
Speaker 2: it seems there's been an increase in recent times that
11:15
Speaker 2: jobs become very difficult because a lot of people are
11:19
Speaker 2: no longer trusting scientists and even doctors for their medical
11:26
Speaker 2: advice or health advice. And this is something that I
11:30
Speaker 2: think is just, you know, it's very strange to me
11:34
Speaker 2: because it's not the environment that I remember when I
11:37
Speaker 2: grew up. Scientists and doctors were highly respected. These were
11:41
Speaker 2: noble positions. These were the reasons why I got into healthcare.
11:46
Speaker 2: So I talked to a lot of individuals and I
11:48
Speaker 2: really don't understand where they're coming from. I don't understand
11:51
Speaker 2: their actions and I don't understand why they would listen
11:55
Speaker 2: to people who are not experts in like a medical
11:59
Speaker 2: field when they're trying to obtain health advice, especially for
12:03
Speaker 2: their children. So in talking to these individuals, um, it
12:10
Speaker 2: becomes very obvious that they are grossly misinformed. They're, you know,
12:15
Speaker 2: saturated with disinformation and trying to have a conversation that
12:23
Speaker 2: gets them out of that mode of thinking and gets
12:26
Speaker 2: you to, gets them to trust you is a real challenge.
12:31
Speaker 2: So that's why I constantly remind myself, and here's where
12:35
Speaker 2: the free will part come in, is that anyone's beliefs
12:40
Speaker 2: and worldviews didn't form in a vacuum, right? People are
12:44
Speaker 2: born with certain, you know, genetic configurations that lead them,
12:49
Speaker 2: predispose them towards certain activities. And then they're raised in households,
12:54
Speaker 2: maybe religions, communities that kind of, you know, inscribe on
13:02
Speaker 2: that blackboard in their head, ways of thinking and who
13:06
Speaker 2: to trust and who to be suspicious of. And we
13:10
Speaker 2: really don't control a lot of all of that when
13:11
Speaker 2: you think about it. We don't control where we were born.
13:15
Speaker 2: We don't control what language we initially spoke. We don't
13:18
Speaker 2: control what religion we were initially taught. And we don't
13:23
Speaker 2: control what culture we're in. You would literally be a
13:27
Speaker 2: different person if you were born on the other side
13:30
Speaker 2: of the planet and in a country that was either
13:33
Speaker 2: far richer or far poorer than the one you were in.
13:36
Speaker 2: You would be a totally different person. So I have
13:41
Speaker 2: to keep that at the forefront of my mind. And
13:43
Speaker 2: when I get someone who disagrees with me on something,
13:47
Speaker 2: I don't just cut to the defensive, which is what
13:51
Speaker 2: most of us do. You know that I think that's
13:53
Speaker 2: a habit of the human mind. And it's natural to
13:56
Speaker 2: put your ego out there in front and say, you know,
14:00
Speaker 2: and get defensive about it. Or a lot of my
14:03
Speaker 2: colleagues and I found this to be the wrong approach.
14:07
Speaker 2: You know, wear their expertise on their sleeve, so to speak.
14:11
Speaker 2: You know, they come down a little in a condescending fashion. Like, hey,
14:14
Speaker 2: I'm the expert. I studied this stuff for several decades.
14:17
Speaker 2: I know what I'm doing. I know what I'm talking about.
14:19
Speaker 2: I paid my dues. Who are you? You question me.
14:24
Speaker 2: You've done your own research. What does that even mean?
14:27
Speaker 2: That's really insulting to someone who went and got a PhD, right?
14:32
Speaker 1: That's a great question, yeah. Well, usually I've done my research.
14:35
Speaker 2: But they don't see that as insulting.
14:39
Speaker 1: I've done my research equates to I watched a YouTube video.
14:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, it could. It's very cherry picking. And it could be,
14:48
Speaker 2: you know, if you pay attention to one influencer, your
14:54
Speaker 2: social media algorithms are going to show you nothing but
14:57
Speaker 2: that same message. You won't hear the opposite message. There
15:02
Speaker 2: was a brilliant video done several years ago by a
15:07
Speaker 2: professor where he was confronted with someone doing their own research.
15:13
Speaker 2: And they brought them this, you know, this piece of
15:15
Speaker 2: paper that showed them. I'm just going to pull an
15:19
Speaker 2: example out of the hat. You know, the vaccines are poisonous.
15:22
Speaker 2: And then the professor shows them. several stacks of journal
15:27
Speaker 2: articles that say, no, they're not, they're safe and effective.
15:32
Speaker 2: And she's still there holding this one piece of paper
15:34
Speaker 2: and says, you're wrong. So it goes to show, you know, once,
15:40
Speaker 2: once you think you know something, you really double down
15:43
Speaker 2: on it. You're resistant to hearing other people's opinions and
15:47
Speaker 2: that works both ways.
15:49
Speaker 1: Yeah.
15:49
Speaker 2: So what I was trying to attempt with this article was,
15:53
Speaker 2: was to get people who disagree with one another talking
15:57
Speaker 2: and talking in a productive fashion, not yelling at each
16:00
Speaker 2: other and not just throwing out the same old talking
16:03
Speaker 2: points that everybody's heard already. So if you drop the whole,
16:09
Speaker 2: everybody is willfully ignorant or everyone, you know, has reached
16:14
Speaker 2: their decisions completely on their own, you know, If you
16:18
Speaker 2: drop that pretense and recognize that maybe we don't have
16:22
Speaker 2: free will, maybe we don't have as much free will
16:25
Speaker 2: as we think we do. Either way, it helps you
16:29
Speaker 2: get out of the defensive mode and cultures this communication
16:36
Speaker 2: environment where you can seek to understand one another. To me,
16:41
Speaker 2: that's more important than persuasion at the first encounter, because
16:47
Speaker 2: the It's there you can establish trust. I'll give you
16:51
Speaker 2: a quick example of how I'm implementing this, Harps. I
16:55
Speaker 2: just completed recording an eight-episode podcast with a colleague of mine,
17:02
Speaker 2: James McGrath.
17:04
Speaker 1: Wow.
17:04
Speaker 2: It's called Crossroads of Science and Faith. So I'm a scientist, right?
17:11
Speaker 2: I don't believe in too many religious things.
17:14
Speaker 1: Yep.
17:14
Speaker 2: But my colleague, James, is a religious scholar and a
17:18
Speaker 2: practitioner of religion. So we thought it would be a
17:23
Speaker 2: hoot to come together and just attempt to learn from
17:31
Speaker 2: one another why we believe such different things. And we'll
17:35
Speaker 2: answer some of the biggest questions in life from those
17:38
Speaker 2: two different perspectives. It tries to identify common ground, but
17:43
Speaker 2: it also– educates each party as to why your worldview
17:48
Speaker 2: is different. And you're not out there to persuade necessarily,
17:53
Speaker 2: but it's a learning experience and you better understand why
17:59
Speaker 2: they believe things the way they do. So I think
18:02
Speaker 2: that's a healthier way to go about maybe building bridges,
18:06
Speaker 2: building trust. And lo and behold, over time, if you
18:11
Speaker 2: have trust in place, They're going to listen to your
18:14
Speaker 2: message a lot more thoroughly than if trust wasn't there. Okay.
18:20
Speaker 1: You ready? Here are my thoughts. Here are the challenges. Firstly,
18:25
Speaker 1: I agree with you 100%. There's nothing I disagree with.
18:30
Speaker 1: But here are some of the practical challenges. The person
18:34
Speaker 1: that you are going to talk to needs to be
18:38
Speaker 1: open-minded as much as a human can be, which is
18:41
Speaker 1: not very. and also willing to be somewhat open to
18:47
Speaker 1: the idea that they could be wrong, totally wrong, partially wrong,
18:51
Speaker 1: a lot, a bit, a little bit. That's challenge one.
18:56
Speaker 1: Challenge two is people's beliefs, what they believe, what they think,
19:00
Speaker 1: what they know to be true, in inverted commas, is
19:04
Speaker 1: interwoven with their identity. So when you attack their beliefs,
19:08
Speaker 1: you attack their identity, be that the professor or the
19:11
Speaker 1: pastor or or the vegan, right? The next thing is,
19:17
Speaker 1: it is like nothing in the average human wants to
19:23
Speaker 1: be wrong, right? And so trying to have, you know,
19:29
Speaker 1: when all of us, including you and me, look at
19:31
Speaker 1: the world and look at everything through the subjective Bill
19:34
Speaker 1: lens and Craig lens, and then talk about objectivity, It's
19:39
Speaker 1: theoretically easy, but experientially and practically close to impossible. So
19:44
Speaker 1: this is where I get deep and weird and spiritual.
19:47
Speaker 1: I believe that the beginning of a real level of
19:51
Speaker 1: not religious, by the way, of being able to be
19:58
Speaker 1: as open-minded as possible is where you can simultaneously be
20:04
Speaker 1: in that conversation while recognizing the fact that your experience
20:09
Speaker 1: in the moment is totally subjective and that you look
20:12
Speaker 1: at the world through the Craig lens or the bill lens,
20:14
Speaker 1: the bill filter. And yeah, it's like getting people to
20:20
Speaker 1: talk down and sit down and be open-minded. It's real
20:24
Speaker 1: hard because you need both people in the same space.
20:26
Speaker 1: It is a great idea and it does happen. And
20:28
Speaker 1: it sounds like you and your friend, you and your
20:31
Speaker 1: religious friend or faith-based friend did it. But yeah, that's
20:35
Speaker 1: for me, that's the, like going through life going, You know,
20:39
Speaker 1: like I grew up in a very religious paradigm. But
20:43
Speaker 1: if I'm being honest, I believed what I believed because
20:46
Speaker 1: I was programmed and taught and told and trained. And,
20:50
Speaker 1: you know, I was hardwired with, or maybe not hardwired,
20:55
Speaker 1: but programmed, you know what I mean, to see the
20:57
Speaker 1: world and see God and see eternity and see, you know,
21:01
Speaker 1: my version of it. And then one day you realize
21:03
Speaker 1: I didn't choose any of this. I was just born
21:06
Speaker 1: into this. And so all my beliefs have kind of
21:09
Speaker 1: been installed in me by social osmosis or religious osmosis
21:14
Speaker 1: or whatever we want to call it. That's the thing.
21:18
Speaker 1: But how do we get people to go, yeah, I'm
21:21
Speaker 1: going to sit down, even though I disagree with you
21:24
Speaker 1: and I even think you're a dummy, maybe, how do I, yeah,
21:30
Speaker 1: I don't know how we do that bit. I agree
21:32
Speaker 1: with you, but how do we get people into that receptive, humble,
21:37
Speaker 1: you know, am I actually teachable or do I just
21:40
Speaker 1: want to talk at people?
21:43
Speaker 2: No, those are, those are really good challenges. And there's,
21:46
Speaker 2: they're the things that I confront with every day as
21:50
Speaker 2: a science and medical communicator. And, um, you know, you
21:54
Speaker 2: get comments back all the time that are just like,
22:00
Speaker 2: you know, how am I going to break through to
22:02
Speaker 2: that person? Um, In the context of social media, I
22:06
Speaker 2: wouldn't recommend it. That is not a platform of where
22:09
Speaker 2: you can have productive engagement. So I think this works
22:15
Speaker 2: best when you are doing some sort of one-on-one interaction
22:20
Speaker 2: or maybe with a small group or something like that.
22:23
Speaker 2: In person is favorable, but I have done it virtually
22:28
Speaker 2: with some, well, what I perceive to be success. And
22:34
Speaker 2: what I, to answer like the first challenge, well, all the,
22:38
Speaker 2: all those challenges kind of boil down to what if
22:41
Speaker 2: the other party's not on board with this? And the
22:45
Speaker 2: short answer is there's not much you can do if
22:48
Speaker 2: they're not a willing participant to learn and engage or
22:52
Speaker 2: be curious. You got to write them off and move
22:56
Speaker 2: on to the next one because you're digging for gold
22:59
Speaker 2: in a wrong, in the wrong area, you know? The
23:02
Speaker 2: way I look at this, Harps, is that people are
23:05
Speaker 2: on a spectrum of belief, okay? You're always going to
23:09
Speaker 2: have people who are out there on the far end, okay,
23:14
Speaker 2: who are very extreme and pretty immobile. They're not going
23:18
Speaker 2: to budge. But most people are in the middle, and
23:23
Speaker 2: most people are at least curious as to why others
23:28
Speaker 2: might believe something different. And they are willing to engage
23:32
Speaker 2: in my experience. You can't go into this thinking that
23:37
Speaker 2: you're going to be persuasive, especially on the first meeting.
23:41
Speaker 2: I choose that not to be the goal anymore. I
23:45
Speaker 2: choose learning to be the goal. And if we can
23:48
Speaker 2: learn from one another as to where we got to
23:52
Speaker 2: these places, And keeping that idea that we didn't get
23:57
Speaker 2: to these on our own accord. We didn't have a
24:01
Speaker 2: choice in how we grew up, where we grew up,
24:04
Speaker 2: what we were exposed to during our most formidable years.
24:09
Speaker 2: And I would argue you don't even have a choice
24:11
Speaker 2: when you change your mind. It all depends on what
24:14
Speaker 2: you've been experiencing, what you've read, what people you've met,
24:17
Speaker 2: a lot of which is outside of our control. But
24:20
Speaker 2: give me the benefit of the doubt for the moment.
24:23
Speaker 2: We don't have free will. If you go in with
24:25
Speaker 2: that mentality, you can say this person can't help who
24:29
Speaker 2: they are, but I can have an influence on who
24:33
Speaker 2: they become. OK, that is a really good motivator to
24:39
Speaker 2: keep you focused on trying to get them to learn
24:44
Speaker 2: about you and your how you arrived at your worldview,
24:48
Speaker 2: not necessarily that you're trying to convince them of it.
24:51
Speaker 2: You just want them to understand, hey, I believe this
24:55
Speaker 2: because of X, Y, Z. And now I think I
24:57
Speaker 2: can see you don't believe that because of D, E, F.
25:03
Speaker 2: And that's really cool. If you listen to like the
25:08
Speaker 2: first episode of our podcast just came out and me
25:11
Speaker 2: and James and I thought it would be a really
25:13
Speaker 2: good idea before we started tackling any of the scientific
25:17
Speaker 2: and spiritual questions that we just get to know each other.
25:22
Speaker 2: We did not come with any kind of attitude of
25:24
Speaker 2: trying to convince one another who was right or wrong
25:27
Speaker 2: about anything. We just wanted to get to know each
25:30
Speaker 2: other better. So we simply had an episode of, hey,
25:34
Speaker 2: what's your favorite books? What kind of shows do you
25:37
Speaker 2: like to watch? What were your favorite toys growing up?
25:42
Speaker 2: Really trivial, kind of goofy things like that. And what
25:46
Speaker 2: we found out within like 20, 30 minutes is is
25:50
Speaker 2: that we have so much in common, so many things
25:54
Speaker 2: in common, that this one difference, science versus religion, it
26:00
Speaker 2: shrinks and shrinks and shrinks the more you realize how
26:03
Speaker 2: much you actually do have in common, how much of
26:06
Speaker 2: the person you're talking to, hey, they're just another human
26:09
Speaker 2: being like me trying to figure out their way in
26:11
Speaker 2: the world, okay? And let's learn from each other about
26:16
Speaker 2: our experiences and figure out why you went right and
26:20
Speaker 2: I went left or something like that.
26:24
Speaker 1: I think what's changed, I love that, and I love
26:26
Speaker 1: that you guys did that. It's called Crossroads of Science
26:29
Speaker 1: and Faith, everybody. Episodes one is out now. Take a listen.
26:35
Speaker 1: What I think has changed, and maybe it's because of
26:39
Speaker 1: or along with the advent of social media and the
26:43
Speaker 1: ability that everyone in the world has now you know,
26:47
Speaker 1: to put up a post and a million people can
26:50
Speaker 1: see that post in a day. Well, in the history of,
26:54
Speaker 1: you know, humanity, we never, or, you know, we never
26:57
Speaker 1: had anything like that where, you know, we could maybe
26:59
Speaker 1: in our tribe impact 150 people maybe or whatever on
27:04
Speaker 1: a good day with a tailwind, you know, but the
27:08
Speaker 1: fact that we now, for better or worse, have so much,
27:11
Speaker 1: not that everybody gets a million people to look at
27:13
Speaker 1: their stuff, of course, but impact so many people. I
27:17
Speaker 1: feel like there's a difference between, hey, Bill, let's have
27:21
Speaker 1: a coffee. Let's talk about this or that. What do
27:23
Speaker 1: you think? What do I think? Versus people out there
27:27
Speaker 1: proactively trying to shove an idea or a concept of
27:30
Speaker 1: philosophy or ideology relentlessly down people's throats. And then when
27:37
Speaker 1: anyone even says, oh, I'm not sure about that. Then
27:40
Speaker 1: they're attacked. You know, there's this diff, there's a different
27:44
Speaker 1: thing going on right now, which is not about, I
27:47
Speaker 1: want to help the world. It's not, it's not about
27:50
Speaker 1: intelligent conversation or discussion. It's not about rational thinking. It's
27:56
Speaker 1: about dogma and it's about intimidation. And it's about, it's
28:01
Speaker 1: just like, to me, that is like what we're talking about.
28:05
Speaker 2: Beautiful.
28:05
Speaker 1: I love it. But yeah, it's just toxic most of
28:09
Speaker 1: what's going on. Like for me, the biggest challenge in
28:15
Speaker 1: conversations when I'm out and it's like, it gets to
28:17
Speaker 1: whatever somebody is talking about stuff that maybe I've got
28:20
Speaker 1: some thoughts or insight into is to know whether or
28:23
Speaker 1: not by me contributing is going to make it the
28:26
Speaker 1: same worse or better. And quite often I think, you know,
28:31
Speaker 1: it's like the people in this space, they're not better
28:33
Speaker 1: or worse than me, but maybe, different or maybe the
28:36
Speaker 1: same but if I think like whatever I'm going to
28:39
Speaker 1: contribute no matter how much I believe it to be
28:41
Speaker 1: true will not improve or not create a positive I
28:46
Speaker 1: just won't because I go well this is me just
28:49
Speaker 1: trying to you know get on my own pulpit and
28:54
Speaker 1: tell them what I think and they're not interested in
28:56
Speaker 1: what I think which is they're right so I think
28:59
Speaker 1: these meaningful conversations where you and someone who in some
29:04
Speaker 1: ways is exactly like you or similar to you and
29:07
Speaker 1: in some ways quite different to you, and you both
29:10
Speaker 1: go in with.
29:10
Speaker 3: The intention of learning and the intention of respect and
29:16
Speaker 3: the intention of maybe I'm wrong on something, you know?
29:21
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I don't know about you, but, like, I'm old, right?
29:25
Speaker 1: But it's funny how getting through my PhD and... I
29:33
Speaker 1: try to explain to people how people who don't have
29:38
Speaker 1: much of an idea which most people don't and don't
29:43
Speaker 1: need to because they're not doing a PhD but trying
29:46
Speaker 1: to explain to people that the tiny focus of like
29:51
Speaker 1: the the minuscule focus of my research I go it's
29:55
Speaker 1: like I've just I've just studied a drop of water
29:59
Speaker 1: in an ocean of science. And I mean all the oceans,
30:04
Speaker 1: and I've studied a drop of water for six years.
30:07
Speaker 1: And so, yeah, I don't, I wouldn't even say I'm
30:11
Speaker 1: an expert in the drop of water. I'd say I
30:13
Speaker 1: know a lot more than I did. You know, so
30:16
Speaker 1: as for, oh, then people think you've got a PhD
30:20
Speaker 1: in psychology, therefore you must understand human biology. I go, no, no.
30:26
Speaker 1: My mum probably understands it better than me.
30:29
Speaker 2: There you go. Mums know everything.
30:31
Speaker 1: Well, you know, it's like, yeah, the older, or not older,
30:35
Speaker 1: but the more I see and experience and encounter and
30:38
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, yeah, there is, this is.
30:42
Speaker 1: Not that it needs to be surmountable, but this is
30:44
Speaker 1: an insurmountable mountain. Like to be all-knowing, to be– it's
30:49
Speaker 1: just not a thing. It's not a possibility.
30:53
Speaker 2: Correct me if I'm wrong, Harbs, but isn't it usually
30:56
Speaker 2: the people who know the least think they know the most? Yeah.
31:02
Speaker 1: What is that?
31:02
Speaker 2: That's called– Or they're more confident that they're correct or
31:07
Speaker 2: something like that. Dunning-Kruger or something like that.
31:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Dunning-Kruger effect, yeah.
31:15
Speaker 2: Because, and this speaks to your point, the more I
31:20
Speaker 2: learn about anything, the more I realize there's so much
31:24
Speaker 2: I don't know. And, you know, I'm quite old myself.
31:27
Speaker 2: I'm right on your tail. And it's like, There is
31:31
Speaker 2: so much information out there, so many cool things about
31:36
Speaker 2: about life, how the human behavior, about nature, about the
31:40
Speaker 2: universe that I'm never going to get a chance to learn.
31:43
Speaker 2: But I'm going to, you know, do my best to
31:45
Speaker 2: find out as much as I can. But it speaks
31:48
Speaker 2: to recalibrating everybody's mindset to be more of more comfortable
31:55
Speaker 2: with uncertainty and more humble with the amount of knowledge
31:59
Speaker 2: that you have. Buddhism has some really wonderful tenets that
32:05
Speaker 2: are related to wisdom. And ironically, one of the most
32:11
Speaker 2: wisest things is admitting you don't know a lot. OK,
32:15
Speaker 2: but you're willing to learn and you've got to be
32:17
Speaker 2: curious in order to do that. And just in going
32:21
Speaker 2: back to the challenge, this relates to it as well.
32:25
Speaker 2: They have this concept of detachment from everything. And this
32:30
Speaker 2: is a really useful psychological tool. If you detach yourself,
32:35
Speaker 2: your ego, from your ideas and what you think is
32:40
Speaker 2: right or wrong, then it doesn't become an issue of
32:44
Speaker 2: your identity anymore. Because if you make something your identity,
32:48
Speaker 2: you've basically put up a roadblock. You built a wall
32:51
Speaker 2: that says, I know everything. I'm not going to learn
32:53
Speaker 2: about anything anymore. How boring is that? And how dangerous
32:58
Speaker 2: is that? Because that means you're also immutable to when
33:01
Speaker 2: new evidence comes in that clearly shows that you're wrong.
33:05
Speaker 2: And you're going to look like the fool and maybe
33:07
Speaker 2: even do something dangerous. So I like this idea of
33:12
Speaker 2: detaching your thoughts and beliefs, holding on to them kind
33:16
Speaker 2: of very loosely, if at all, so that you're more
33:21
Speaker 2: amenable to change. And we have to be as human beings.
33:24
Speaker 2: We have to be amenable to change. Because all of
33:27
Speaker 2: our lives, we've done nothing but change, okay?
33:31
Speaker 1: Wow. We live in a dynamic world. Life is dynamic.
33:34
Speaker 1: The world's dynamic.
33:36
Speaker 2: It is. But we try to pretend that we're static,
33:40
Speaker 2: and we're not. And psychologically, I think it's very damaging
33:43
Speaker 2: because we are connecting everything to our identity, and then
33:47
Speaker 2: our ego gets in the way whenever someone says, hey,
33:50
Speaker 2: that might be incorrect, even if it's something that could
33:53
Speaker 2: literally save your life.
33:55
Speaker 1: Yes.
33:56
Speaker 2: Yes.
33:57
Speaker 4: There's a fantastic book I just finished. I'm looking for
34:01
Speaker 4: it on my shelf here that really relates to this topic.
34:08
Speaker 4: Let me see.
34:09
Speaker 1: That's all right. You find that. We'll edit this bit out. No,
34:13
Speaker 1: that's fine.
34:13
Speaker 2: This is great. This is.
34:14
Speaker 1: Oh, no, don't edit it out. He's back. Keep it rolling,
34:18
Speaker 1: T4 Melissa.
34:20
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm not... How to not.
34:23
Speaker 1: How to not know.
34:25
Speaker 2: The Value of Uncertainty in a World that Demands Answers.
34:29
Speaker 2: It's by Simon Stolzhoff. And I just finished. It's a
34:35
Speaker 2: fantastic book. It's really short. So it's really simple. And
34:39
Speaker 2: he uses the power of storytelling. So it's very accessible.
34:44
Speaker 1: Can you hold it up for one sec? I just
34:47
Speaker 1: want to ask. I'm actually going to get it. How
34:50
Speaker 1: to not know. How to not know. Cool. I'm going
34:53
Speaker 1: to get that. I'm going to listen to that.
34:56
Speaker 2: It's really, really good about disconnecting yourself in a healthy
35:01
Speaker 2: way from clinging too tightly to your ideas and getting
35:05
Speaker 2: comfortable with uncertainty. I think if human beings were more
35:09
Speaker 2: comfortable with not knowing or being uncertain, I think society
35:14
Speaker 2: would be much better because all we're doing these days
35:17
Speaker 2: is butting heads and arguing and doubling down on the
35:20
Speaker 2: same talking points that you hear repeated ad nauseum. And
35:24
Speaker 2: we're not learning from one another. And social media is
35:27
Speaker 2: a big part of this. Those algorithms aggressively try to
35:30
Speaker 2: confirm what you know already. And they shun anything to
35:35
Speaker 2: the contrary. So that's what needs to be knocked down
35:40
Speaker 2: if we're going to come together and start a healing process,
35:44
Speaker 2: you know, rather than going to war with one another.
35:47
Speaker 4: Yeah.
35:48
Speaker 1: And I talk about this a lot, the fact that
35:51
Speaker 1: like we are. enamored with certainty and comfort and familiarity
35:57
Speaker 1: and predictability and all the things that the world isn't,
36:02
Speaker 1: you know, that that's, yeah, we don't live in that world.
36:05
Speaker 2: The world that we live in.
36:07
Speaker 1: Yeah. It's, it's adapting. It's changing. It's, it's good. It's bad.
36:12
Speaker 1: It's terrifying. It's beautiful. It's amazing. It's unpredictable. It's all
36:17
Speaker 1: the things. And in the middle of all of those
36:18
Speaker 1: things that we can't change, is us, you know, the,
36:23
Speaker 1: the writer of our own story, you know, the, like the,
36:27
Speaker 1: the navigator of all the unfamiliar and unwanted and beautiful
36:31
Speaker 1: and amazing, you know, and it's trying to, I feel
36:33
Speaker 1: like life has asked for me anyway, I feel like
36:36
Speaker 1: life has been asked me one, a bunch of questions,
36:39
Speaker 1: but my main question for the last 30 years is,
36:41
Speaker 1: can you adapt? Cause like, can you adapt? Because like
36:45
Speaker 1: in my business, I had to adapt in my career.
36:47
Speaker 1: I had to adapt with my body, with, with, with
36:51
Speaker 1: how I eat, with how I live, with my lifestyle,
36:53
Speaker 1: with relationships, with communication, with leadership, with all the things
37:01
Speaker 1: that I've had to do that I was somewhere between
37:05
Speaker 1: horrible and not very good. Well, if I just went, well,
37:09
Speaker 1: this is my leadership style, I would have led no one.
37:13
Speaker 1: I would have had no businesses. I would have had
37:15
Speaker 1: no teams. I would have been a terrible coach working
37:18
Speaker 1: with athletes. And so it's not like everyone had to
37:22
Speaker 1: work around me. I had to work around it. I
37:24
Speaker 1: had needed to figure out, well, what is it that
37:26
Speaker 1: I do that doesn't work? Yes, I can string a
37:30
Speaker 1: few words together, but nonetheless, I'm not doing well. What
37:33
Speaker 1: is that about? Or what am I doing to my
37:38
Speaker 1: body that's producing this outcome because this is not working?
37:42
Speaker 1: Or what am I doing in the podcast where you know,
37:46
Speaker 1: it's like we're flatlining. We're not growing. What is happening?
37:51
Speaker 1: What am I not doing? What do I need to
37:53
Speaker 1: know and understand? It's that whole kind of, you know,
37:56
Speaker 1: you can't become a black belt without being a white
37:58
Speaker 1: belt and get your ass handed to you for six months.
38:01
Speaker 1: It's like the starting point is always, you know, like
38:06
Speaker 1: I'm not good at this, but if I work at
38:08
Speaker 1: it and I can become good at it. But I
38:10
Speaker 1: think that that whole kind of– To me, it's like
38:16
Speaker 1: an addiction. We're addicted to comfort. We're addicted to instant gratification.
38:20
Speaker 1: We're addicted to being right.
38:23
Speaker 2: It feels good.
38:25
Speaker 1: Yeah. It feels good to think that you're right. Yeah,
38:28
Speaker 1: it does. I wanted to ask you between zero and
38:32
Speaker 1: let's say, say zero and 15. I don't know why
38:38
Speaker 1: I picked that number. Let's say zero. It doesn't matter. What,
38:42
Speaker 1: where do you think our beliefs come from? Like, All 10-year-olds,
38:46
Speaker 1: 12-year-olds have beliefs. Are they a byproduct of experiences they've had?
38:52
Speaker 1: Is it completely environmental? Is it mum and dad? Is
38:57
Speaker 1: it church? Is it school teachers? Is it peers? I
39:00
Speaker 1: guess it's all of it. But what do you think
39:01
Speaker 1: is the biggest factor that determines what people believe when they're, say, mid-teens?
39:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. So I think... And
39:14
Speaker 2: people should fact check me on this because, again, I'm
39:16
Speaker 2: uncertain and I'm comfortable with that. You know, I think
39:21
Speaker 2: in the beginning, children learn the most from their mom
39:25
Speaker 2: and dad or whatever relatives are around, maybe siblings as well.
39:30
Speaker 2: if they're in the picture. But I want to say
39:34
Speaker 2: with like 95% confidence that I know a study has
39:38
Speaker 2: been done in that after they reach their teenage years,
39:42
Speaker 2: their most influential– source of what's going to form their
39:45
Speaker 2: worldview are their peers. Um, you know, the kids they
39:49
Speaker 2: hang around, whether they're friends or not, it's their peers
39:53
Speaker 2: that actually help formulate, um, what that child is going
39:57
Speaker 2: to believe. Um, and their parental influence, uh, is greatly diminished.
40:04
Speaker 2: I'm not saying it goes away by any means, but
40:06
Speaker 2: it's diminished. Um, and that explains why Some kids who
40:10
Speaker 2: grow up in the same household with the same parents
40:13
Speaker 2: can be very different when they grow up. It's because
40:17
Speaker 2: they were exposed to different peer groups along the way.
40:20
Speaker 2: So I would put a little more weight on the
40:24
Speaker 2: peer groups. Choose your friends wisely and listen to those
40:30
Speaker 2: adages of if you lay down with a dog, you
40:34
Speaker 2: might wake up with fleas. Pick wisely. Pick who you're
40:38
Speaker 2: hanging out with very, very carefully because I think it
40:42
Speaker 2: influences our brain more than we like to recognize.
40:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is interesting.
40:48
Speaker 2: Now, church can have a huge influence on people.
40:51
Speaker 1: I know, brother. Oh, I know.
40:54
Speaker 2: That's right. And as I've learned from my wonderful colleague,
40:59
Speaker 2: James McGrath, you know, that can have a huge imprint
41:03
Speaker 2: on you. Even if you leave the faith, there are
41:05
Speaker 2: still things you could have learned and grew up with.
41:08
Speaker 2: In that church community that can either serve you very
41:11
Speaker 2: well or have built in biases and prejudices that are
41:15
Speaker 2: you're going to carry through life all depends on what
41:19
Speaker 2: sort of. you know, faith you belong to and how
41:23
Speaker 2: open-minded they were. And that's something that I really loved
41:26
Speaker 2: about the podcast because James really opened my eyes and
41:29
Speaker 2: reminded me that we can't paint religious people with one stripe.
41:34
Speaker 2: There's a great deal, great deal of variation, you know,
41:39
Speaker 2: even within a single faith. Did you know there's 45,000
41:43
Speaker 2: denominations of just Christianity?
41:45
Speaker 1: I didn't know that many, but... Dude, what about this?
41:50
Speaker 1: I grew up in a Catholic church, which my experience
41:53
Speaker 1: was it was droll. It was this is my experience, everyone. Droll,
41:58
Speaker 1: it was boring. It was uneventful. It was unexciting. It
42:02
Speaker 1: was something to endure. That was my experience. And then
42:06
Speaker 1: later on, anyway, I had a period of my life
42:10
Speaker 1: where I went to a different church, and it was like,
42:14
Speaker 1: it was just, it was like being on another planet.
42:17
Speaker 1: Like these are the same religion. These are two different denominations,
42:21
Speaker 1: but yeah, it was like a completely different language, completely
42:25
Speaker 1: different culture, completely different experience, but it's meant to be
42:29
Speaker 1: the same religion. So yeah, I'm with you and it's, yeah,
42:33
Speaker 1: it has a, well, for most people who grow up
42:36
Speaker 1: in church, that influence or that awareness, it never goes away.
42:41
Speaker 1: And even the guilt, it's like, I did an interview
42:45
Speaker 1: the other day with a lady who wrote a book.
42:48
Speaker 1: I think it was just called Guilt, but The Science
42:51
Speaker 1: of Guilt. So interesting. I'm like, and I thought, wow,
42:55
Speaker 1: in over two, nearly two and a half thousand episodes,
42:58
Speaker 1: I've never done a conversation about guilt. And yeah, it's
43:01
Speaker 1: just like- Wow, it's hard to believe. Yeah, I know,
43:04
Speaker 1: I know, I know. Okay, I just, there was one
43:07
Speaker 1: thing I wanted to swing back to before we wind up.
43:12
Speaker 1: I love this chat, by the way. So if free
43:16
Speaker 1: will is an illusion, what about personal responsibility?
43:24
Speaker 2: Oh, wow. That's a whole other episode, I think, isn't it?
43:28
Speaker 2: But yeah, well, the way I look at this is that, yeah,
43:36
Speaker 2: if you have to assume there's no free will or
43:39
Speaker 2: you don't have as much control over your actions, then
43:43
Speaker 2: it's illogical to say someone's responsible for their actions. You know,
43:47
Speaker 2: they're kind of a victim of this chain of events
43:49
Speaker 2: that has preceded that activity that they engaged in. This
43:54
Speaker 2: is not a get out of jail free card, if
43:56
Speaker 2: that's what people are wondering. Literally and metaphorically? Yeah, exactly.
44:02
Speaker 2: We have to protect society from people who persistently do
44:07
Speaker 2: misdeeds or endanger other people. So I have absolutely no
44:11
Speaker 2: qualms about putting people in jail or putting them in
44:13
Speaker 2: a place where they can do no harm to others
44:16
Speaker 2: if there's a history of doing that. But to take
44:19
Speaker 2: an extreme example, you're probably very familiar with the so-called
44:23
Speaker 2: warrior gene, MAOA, I think it is called, or it's
44:28
Speaker 2: a monominoxidase gene. When it's mutated in certain ways, people
44:35
Speaker 2: have a proclivity towards violence. especially if they were exposed
44:40
Speaker 2: to an environment of abuse when they were younger. So
44:44
Speaker 2: when you have an individual like that, it makes it
44:48
Speaker 2: really difficult to say they're responsible for their own actions.
44:53
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously they're responsible because they committed them, but
44:57
Speaker 2: were they of their own free will? How can you
45:02
Speaker 2: say that if they had a genetic mutation? Another example
45:06
Speaker 2: is that there was this guy who was a pedophile, okay?
45:11
Speaker 2: Turns out that he had a tumor in his brain.
45:17
Speaker 2: When they removed the tumor, the pedophilia went away.
45:23
Speaker 1: The tumor- These are uncomfortable realities.
45:27
Speaker 2: And the pedophilia came back. Wow, yeah, that's like- of
45:36
Speaker 2: there are things that happen to us that make us
45:39
Speaker 2: completely different people than who we might have started out being.
45:43
Speaker 2: So when you have, let's just say, a normal person
45:47
Speaker 2: sitting back, how can someone do something so despicable? There's
45:52
Speaker 2: a biological reason for everything. That I believe 100%. We're
45:58
Speaker 2: just ignorant of what it might be. Is that to
46:01
Speaker 2: say we're not, you know, we need to let these
46:04
Speaker 2: people run free? Absolutely not. We cannot do that. But
46:07
Speaker 2: we also cannot take the stance that we'll never be
46:10
Speaker 2: able to understand this person. Let's roll up our sleeves
46:14
Speaker 2: and figure out what the biological reason is for why
46:19
Speaker 2: they're engaging in this behavior. Because if we understand that,
46:23
Speaker 2: then we might be able to work with that knowledge,
46:26
Speaker 2: maybe identify these individuals as having a risk factor, if
46:31
Speaker 2: it's a gene or something like that, or coming up
46:36
Speaker 2: with a therapeutic that can mitigate the effects of certain
46:40
Speaker 2: genetic mutations that cause a mental illness of some kind.
46:45
Speaker 2: Like I said, you could probably dedicate a whole episode
46:48
Speaker 2: to that particular topic because it is a hot button
46:51
Speaker 2: issue in psychology Because I think more and more neuroscientists
46:55
Speaker 2: are coming out with the idea that, hey, free will
46:59
Speaker 2: is an illusion.
47:01
Speaker 1: Yes.
47:02
Speaker 2: What are we going to do with that knowledge? I
47:05
Speaker 2: think that's where the debate has to go next.
47:10
Speaker 1: I don't even know why I thought of this, but
47:12
Speaker 1: talking about genetics and biology and predisposition, it's like there
47:18
Speaker 1: are still countries in the world where if you're homosexual,
47:22
Speaker 1: it's punishable by death. Like in 2026.
47:27
Speaker 2: It's a travesty.
47:30
Speaker 1: Yeah. People are literally, that is their biology. Like that is,
47:34
Speaker 1: they're not trying to be like, this is not some,
47:38
Speaker 1: you know, four week trial that they're on. Like, this
47:40
Speaker 1: is how, you know, this is how they are.
47:44
Speaker 2: Given how some in that community are treated, why would
47:49
Speaker 2: you sign up for that? You know, you wouldn't. Why
47:52
Speaker 2: would you put yourself through it? So, yeah, and there's
47:57
Speaker 2: studies out there that are already speaking to the biology
48:02
Speaker 2: of homosexuality. It is not limited to the human species. But, yeah,
48:08
Speaker 2: that knowledge is going to take time to permeate communities
48:11
Speaker 2: that may not be scientifically literate.
48:15
Speaker 1: That brings me.
48:18
Speaker 1: I was just going to say, maybe episode five with
48:23
Speaker 1: your podcast co-host, maybe touch on, let's see where homosexuality
48:29
Speaker 1: goes with his religion and your science. That would be
48:32
Speaker 1: an interesting chat.
48:34
Speaker 2: Oh, I think he'd be 100% on board that, you know,
48:38
Speaker 2: religions are in the wrong when it comes to persecuting LGBTQ.
48:43
Speaker 2: It's just, we are much smarter than that now. But
48:47
Speaker 2: the resistance that he faces is that there are some
48:51
Speaker 2: in the church who just can't admit that they were
48:53
Speaker 2: wrong or that they won't admit that tradition has been wrong.
48:57
Speaker 2: And that gets back to our point about holding on
49:02
Speaker 2: to the things we believe very loosely and being ready
49:06
Speaker 2: to change when new evidence presents itself. So I did
49:12
Speaker 2: want to circle back. Because I think it ties together
49:15
Speaker 2: some of the challenges you raised, Harps, and in and
49:20
Speaker 2: kind of lends a little evidence to back up the
49:24
Speaker 2: article I wrote. And, you know, this, I can tell
49:29
Speaker 2: you till I'm blue in the face that this works
49:31
Speaker 2: personally for me. This is an approach that I use
49:35
Speaker 2: that allows me to Engage with other people a little
49:40
Speaker 2: more peacefully with more curiosity and humility. And I hope
49:45
Speaker 2: it does the same for others, because the only way
49:47
Speaker 2: the world's going to change and human relations can heal
49:51
Speaker 2: is if we start talking to one another rather than
49:54
Speaker 2: our echo chambers. But it's not just me. There's this
50:01
Speaker 2: fellow named Dr. Darrell Davis. He's a jazz musician. And
50:08
Speaker 2: he advocates this approach as well. Not necessarily the free
50:12
Speaker 2: will component, but he advocates trying to find out and
50:17
Speaker 2: leveraging the things that you have in common with people.
50:21
Speaker 2: And he uses music as something that's almost universally appreciated.
50:28
Speaker 2: So he seizes on that. But you know what he does?
50:32
Speaker 2: He's a black man who has convinced 200,000 kkk members
50:39
Speaker 2: to hand over their robes and quit that racist organization
50:44
Speaker 2: wow so and he uses the power of music and
50:47
Speaker 2: conversation to do that now you can imagine that um
50:52
Speaker 2: he's quite unique i don't think there are a lot
50:55
Speaker 2: of i mean if i was a black man i
50:57
Speaker 2: would not want to be sitting down with a kkk
51:00
Speaker 2: member right.
51:00
Speaker 1: Yeah i'm with.
51:02
Speaker 2: You so I have such respect for Daryl Davis for
51:08
Speaker 2: the courage and the patience that he has, but it's effective.
51:13
Speaker 2: I mean, he has convinced hundreds of people to turn
51:18
Speaker 2: the corner of racism that they've been taught and embrace
51:23
Speaker 2: a different way of living. So Daryl Davis is a
51:29
Speaker 2: perfect illustrator of the power of this approach. It does
51:33
Speaker 2: take some courage. It does take patience. And if you
51:36
Speaker 2: want instant gratification, you're probably not going to get it.
51:40
Speaker 2: Nine times out of 10, when I go into a
51:43
Speaker 2: conversation where I'm trying to communicate something scientifically or medically,
51:48
Speaker 2: I'm not going to win the day. I'm not going
51:50
Speaker 2: to persuade them on the spot, but I'm hopeful that
51:54
Speaker 2: I've extended like this olive branch of friendship and trust
51:59
Speaker 2: that next time when they hear something, a contrary argument,
52:03
Speaker 2: they might take it a little more seriously.
52:05
Speaker 1: I love that, the olive branch. That's such a beautiful metaphor.
52:13
Speaker 2: I guess I see it as a podcast with the
52:16
Speaker 2: religious people that have gotten into my brain.
52:19
Speaker 1: No, but it's just nice, dude. It's like, yeah, it's
52:23
Speaker 1: like you don't have to be religious to.
52:29
Speaker 2: No, the olive branch is what they used on the Ark,
52:31
Speaker 2: I think, wasn't it?
52:32
Speaker 1: Yeah.
52:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
52:34
Speaker 1: Yeah.
52:36
Speaker 2: So you were saying you don't have to be religious.
52:39
Speaker 1: Well, I just think that it's like, you know, you can–
52:45
Speaker 1: I'm like everyone. I'm probably worse than a lot of people, but,
52:48
Speaker 1: you know, all my own issues and bullshit and all
52:51
Speaker 1: the stuff that humans have, you know, I have, and
52:53
Speaker 1: I'm constantly trying to, you know– self manage as well
53:00
Speaker 1: as I can around others and be hopefully a positive
53:04
Speaker 1: influence in the life of others, you know, but so
53:07
Speaker 1: my kind of thing is, am I coming from as
53:11
Speaker 1: much as possible, a place of love or kindness or, and, and,
53:17
Speaker 1: you know, and trying to be in the moment aware
53:20
Speaker 1: of that, like sometimes, you know, I'll be, I have
53:25
Speaker 1: coffee at the same place every morning, And sometimes, like often, well,
53:31
Speaker 1: every day virtually, someone that I don't have a meeting
53:34
Speaker 1: with will come and just sit with me and talk
53:35
Speaker 1: to me, which I like. There are a few people
53:38
Speaker 1: who know who I am, but quite often somebody, like
53:41
Speaker 1: I'm in the middle of something, I'm doing something, and
53:42
Speaker 1: they're like, can I ask you a question? And I'm thinking, no,
53:46
Speaker 1: I don't want your question. I want to get this done.
53:49
Speaker 1: But just things like that where I think if all
53:54
Speaker 1: of us, religious, non-religious, science, whatever, If we could look
53:58
Speaker 1: at things through a lens of love or at least
54:01
Speaker 1: kindness or compassion, empathy, tolerance, yeah, I'm with you. It
54:09
Speaker 1: would be– and conversation. It's like, wow, that would be
54:13
Speaker 1: a good world.
54:15
Speaker 2: That would be– Yeah, that's beautifully put. Absolutely, 100%.
54:21
Speaker 1: All right, so the article, everyone, is in Psychology Today.
54:24
Speaker 1: It was only written a few weeks ago. Go check
54:26
Speaker 1: it out. It's called Can't Get Along, Try Rejecting Free Will.
54:32
Speaker 1: And getting to know me. What's the rest?
54:42
Speaker 2: Pleased to meet me. Is that what you're thinking?
54:45
Speaker 1: Sorry, dude.
54:46
Speaker 2: Pleased to meet me. Genes, germs, and the curious forces
54:49
Speaker 2: that make us who we are. You can learn about
54:51
Speaker 2: the book and you can also find everything that I've written,
54:56
Speaker 2: including the article Harps was talking about today at authorbillsullivan.com.
55:03
Speaker 1: Apologies for that. I shouldn't know that by now. I'm just,
55:05
Speaker 1: you know, it's Monday morning and I'm old. Mate, I
55:08
Speaker 1: love chatting to you. We appreciate you. My listeners love you.
55:13
Speaker 1: I get nothing but good feedback. We'll say goodbye fair,
55:16
Speaker 1: but enjoy your Sunday night. And I hope you have
55:19
Speaker 1: a great week.
55:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, you do the same. Thanks for having me on.
55:23
Speaker 2: And thanks to everybody who's listening.