Latest / Revisionist History / Memorial Day, 2020 | Part 2

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Memorial Day, 2020 | Part 2 · Revisionist History

0:15
Speaker 1: Pushkin.
0:21
Speaker 2: May thirty first, twenty twenty six, days after the death
0:26
Speaker 2: of George Floyd, A small group of people gather in
0:29
Speaker 2: a room somewhere in downtown Minneapolis.
0:32
Speaker 3: So, okay, so let's just we're going to try to
0:36
Speaker 3: run this way to typically run the years, right. I'm
0:39
Speaker 3: just going to identify everybody in the room here for
0:41
Speaker 3: the record. Okay.
0:43
Speaker 2: Two investigators from the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension, one
0:47
Speaker 2: FBI agent, two attorneys, and the first police officer to
0:52
Speaker 2: arrive at the scene at the corner of thirty eighth
0:54
Speaker 2: in Chicago that day, Thomas Lane. He's there to give
0:59
Speaker 2: a statement about what happened. If you've ever watched videos
1:03
Speaker 2: of the death of George Floyd, Lane is the tall
1:05
Speaker 2: one six' seven right next To Derek chauvin Restraining floyd's.
1:10
Speaker 3: LEGS i guess just tell us in your own. WORDS
1:14
Speaker 3: i did much details, possible is what happened from me in. Perspective, okay.
1:22
Speaker 1: We were dispensed To cornerie And partner's report at the Cup.
1:26
Speaker 4: FOODS i believe in the call notes it said that
1:30
Speaker 4: the suspect was still on scene in The. Mercedes we
1:35
Speaker 4: drove to the call we didn't act bitter like and
1:37
Speaker 4: sirens BECAUSE i believe the relatively. Polls and we got
1:41
Speaker 4: there and entered the, building entered Cup foods Of. Business
1:48
Speaker 4: there's a staff member there that, said you, know they're still.
1:51
Speaker 4: Here he, goes he was holding a bill and he,
1:53
Speaker 4: goes they gave me.
1:53
Speaker 1: This it's a big.
1:54
Speaker 4: Twenty he pointed across the street and they're, like he's
1:57
Speaker 4: it's he's in the car over, there you, know go
1:59
Speaker 4: get in before he drives. Off SO i, said you,
2:02
Speaker 4: know and he started walking, out AND i was, like you,
2:04
Speaker 4: know just head back and we'll take care of.
2:05
Speaker 2: It lane and his Partner Alexander king walk across the
2:09
Speaker 2: street to the Parked. Mercedes there are two men in
2:13
Speaker 2: the front. Seats lane knocks on the window with his.
2:16
Speaker 2: Flashlight the men turn and see the.
2:19
Speaker 4: Officers they both started kind of digging underneath the. Seat
2:24
Speaker 4: looked like they were reaching for, something AND i said
2:28
Speaker 4: that To. KING i, said they're moving around quite a.
2:29
Speaker 4: Bit AS i was coming across the, STREET i walked
2:34
Speaker 4: up to the driver's side of the. VEHICLE i knocked
2:35
Speaker 4: on the glass and the driver was sitting with his
2:40
Speaker 4: hand down below the, seat kind of leaning forward like,
2:44
Speaker 4: this AND i, said let me see your other, hand
2:46
Speaker 4: AND i directed, them let me see your other. Hand
2:49
Speaker 4: he didn't do, that and he was, just you, know,
2:51
Speaker 4: oh it's no devil or. Whatever and he cut his
2:53
Speaker 4: hand down there and he just glanced. Back SO i
2:57
Speaker 4: took my gun out and you, know AND i, said
2:59
Speaker 4: let me see your your other buck of, hand put
3:02
Speaker 4: your hand. Up gave commands to do. That i'm not
3:05
Speaker 4: sure how. MANY i think they gave a, few.
3:08
Speaker 1: AND i don't know.
3:09
Speaker 4: Why and he quickly went like, this like pulled his
3:11
Speaker 4: hand out real, fast AND i kind of like took
3:14
Speaker 4: a step, back AND i was, Like.
3:15
Speaker 1: Jesus and what are you.
3:16
Speaker 2: Doing my name Is Malcolm. Gladwell you're listening To Revisionist,
3:23
Speaker 2: history my podcast about things overlooked and. Misunderstood this episode
3:28
Speaker 2: is part two of our examination Of Derek chauvin's murder
3:32
Speaker 2: Of George. Floyd in this, EPISODE i want to look
3:36
Speaker 2: at the case from a different, perspective through the eyes
3:40
Speaker 2: of the first police officer to Approach George, Floyd Thomas,
3:44
Speaker 2: lane who at the time had been a fully fledged
3:47
Speaker 2: member of The Minneapolis Police department for only four. Days
4:01
Speaker 2: may twenty, fifth twenty twenty Was Memorial, day a Lovely
4:04
Speaker 2: minneapolis summer. Evening people are outside walking. About it's just
4:09
Speaker 2: after eight pm When lane and his partner pull up
4:12
Speaker 2: to The Cup foods on the corner of thirty eighth In.
4:14
Speaker 2: Chicago lane Pulls floyd out of his, car handcuffs, him
4:19
Speaker 2: sits him on his, sidewalk takes his, information then Walks
4:23
Speaker 2: floyd over to the squad car and puts him in
4:26
Speaker 2: the back. Seat Only floyd doesn't want to get in
4:28
Speaker 2: the back, seat So laine and his Partner king try
4:31
Speaker 2: to force him into. It then a second squad car pulls,
4:35
Speaker 2: Up Derek chauvin gets. Out floyd is struggling so much
4:39
Speaker 2: With lanne And king that he cuts his mouth badly
4:42
Speaker 2: enough That lane calls an. Ambulance lane Thinks floyd is on.
4:46
Speaker 2: Drugs he's acting, erratically and they found a glass pipe
4:49
Speaker 2: on him when they searched. Him they decided to keep
4:52
Speaker 2: him restrained so he can't move or hurt himself. Anymore
4:56
Speaker 2: they call ems a second time and upgrade their request
5:00
Speaker 2: To code, three the most urgent, level life threatening immediate
5:04
Speaker 2: response lights and. Sirens so, far all of this is
5:10
Speaker 2: nothing out of the.
5:10
Speaker 3: Ordinary so was there more to calling that paramedics than
5:15
Speaker 3: just checking his?
5:16
Speaker 4: MOUTH i think THAT i had mentioned, that you, know
5:20
Speaker 4: this could be possibly excited delirium or.
5:22
Speaker 2: Something, okay excited delirium is something That lane must have
5:26
Speaker 2: learned about at the police. ACADEMY a state of extreme,
5:30
Speaker 2: agitation aggression and. Distress it's not an officially recognized clinical. Diagnosis.
5:37
Speaker 4: Listen that was the other thing for stepping it, up
5:39
Speaker 4: because he might be in medical.
5:41
Speaker 3: Distress were you getting a sense that Mister foyd was
5:45
Speaker 3: having a medical? EMERGENCY i, mean obviously, hindsight but at the, TIME.
5:51
Speaker 1: I, YEAH i thought maybe that something was going. On
5:57
Speaker 1: but you thought he was passing.
5:59
Speaker 2: Out, Yeah chauvin puts his knee On floyd's. Neck lane
6:02
Speaker 2: turns To chauvin and shares his. Concern this man's not doing,
6:06
Speaker 2: well and.
6:07
Speaker 3: You articulated that, yeah, Okay and, well how was that
6:12
Speaker 3: suggestion received by your?
6:13
Speaker 1: Opponents they know, Him, yeah they, said just this is.
6:18
Speaker 4: Fine jovin, said this Is we're just gonna hold him
6:22
Speaker 4: here until you. Arrived SO i suggest, that you, know
6:26
Speaker 4: but they excited, delirium you, know maybe we should roll
6:27
Speaker 4: him on his, side.
6:28
Speaker 5: Just to.
6:30
Speaker 1: You, know if he's, LIKE i think it's SOMETHING i
6:33
Speaker 1: had previously.
6:34
Speaker 4: Learned that h pre just job if he'd roll on
6:37
Speaker 4: his side for recovery position or.
6:38
Speaker 2: Something in the video of The floyd, arrest you can
6:42
Speaker 2: Hear lane make his case To. Chauvin he, says you
6:46
Speaker 2: want him on his, side meaning should we roll him
6:49
Speaker 2: over so he can?
6:50
Speaker 1: BREATHE i just worry about that delum or.
7:00
Speaker 2: Whatever you want him on his. Side, no he's staying
7:07
Speaker 2: put where we got. Him, okay just worry about the
7:11
Speaker 2: excited delirium or. Whatever that's why we got the ambulance. Coming,
7:16
Speaker 2: OKAY i. SUPPOSE a minute, Later lane, SAYS i think
7:20
Speaker 2: he's passing, out Meaning floyd's in. Trouble let's get off.
7:24
Speaker 2: Him nothing. HAPPENS a minute after, That lane, says once,
7:30
Speaker 2: again want to roll him on his, side as, in
7:33
Speaker 2: he shouldn't be on his. Stomach lane is trying to
7:38
Speaker 2: do the right. Thing he understands the gravity of the.
7:41
Speaker 2: Situation but the crucial thing here is the Way lane
7:45
Speaker 2: sets out to Convince. Chauvin he doesn't make a declarative
7:48
Speaker 2: statement we should put him on his. Side he has
7:51
Speaker 2: to be on his. Side he asks a question he softens.
7:55
Speaker 2: It should we should we put him on his? Side
7:59
Speaker 2: he mentions excited. Delirium he's concerned About floyd's, safety but
8:04
Speaker 2: he undercuts that concern with words that soften his. ALARM
8:08
Speaker 2: i just worrorry about excited delirium or, whatever and, then,
8:12
Speaker 2: finally After chauvin shuts him, down, OKAY i suppose passive aggressive.
8:19
Speaker 2: Agreement sociologists call this mitigated. Speech one of the greatest
8:26
Speaker 2: causes of plane crashes for years was mitigated. Speech in a,
8:30
Speaker 2: cockpit the first officer would see something dangerous and try
8:34
Speaker 2: to let the captain, know but he would do it
8:37
Speaker 2: in such a mitigated way that the captain wouldn't take
8:40
Speaker 2: the new information. SERIOUSLY i wrote about one of those
8:43
Speaker 2: cases in my Book. Outliers it involved a nineteen eighty
8:47
Speaker 2: Two Air florida flight out Of, washington D. C it
8:50
Speaker 2: was a snowy, Day the plane had been in line
8:53
Speaker 2: for takeoff for an unusually long, time and the first
8:57
Speaker 2: officer thinks the plane has a dangerous amount of ice
9:00
Speaker 2: on its wings and should go back for de. Icing
9:03
Speaker 2: listen to how he tries to convince his superior, officer the, captain,
9:10
Speaker 2: look how the ice is just hanging on this back back.
9:13
Speaker 2: There see. That the captain says. Nothing the first officer tries,
9:18
Speaker 2: again see all those icicles on the back there and.
9:22
Speaker 2: Everything the captain ignores. Him the first officer tries a third. Time,
9:28
Speaker 2: boy this is a losing battle. Here trying to de
9:30
Speaker 2: ice those things gives you a false sense of. Security
9:34
Speaker 2: that's all that does. Nothing the plane is inching to
9:39
Speaker 2: the front of the. Line let's check those wingtops, again
9:43
Speaker 2: since we've been setting here a. While the first officer
9:47
Speaker 2: starts with a, hint look at that, ice then a,
9:50
Speaker 2: question see those, icicles then a, suggestion let's check those.
9:54
Speaker 2: Wingtops each, time he's removing one layer of, mitigation getting
9:58
Speaker 2: closer and closer to what is really on his, mind
10:01
Speaker 2: which is that he's. Terrified but only at the very
10:05
Speaker 2: end does he finally get. There it's just after, takeoff
10:09
Speaker 2: as the plane plunges into The. Potomac we're going, Down,
10:17
Speaker 2: larry and the captain, SAYS i know. It Thomas lane
10:24
Speaker 2: is in exactly the same position as that first officer
10:27
Speaker 2: on the. Plane both of them understand the gravity of
10:30
Speaker 2: the situation they're. In the plane has. Ice the man
10:33
Speaker 2: on the ground is in. Trouble but they have a
10:35
Speaker 2: superior who is, fixated who doesn't see what is, happening
10:39
Speaker 2: who is either incapable of processing any new information or
10:43
Speaker 2: doesn't want, To and neither of the subordinates feel they
10:47
Speaker 2: can just come out and say no because they're. Subordinates
10:56
Speaker 2: the state investigator Questioning lane about what happened That Memorial,
11:00
Speaker 2: day picked up on this very.
11:01
Speaker 3: Thing you obviously bring it, up so it's clearly you're
11:05
Speaker 3: something thinking about.
11:08
Speaker 1: What of ented you from just kind of taking charge
11:11
Speaker 1: of that and making the.
11:13
Speaker 4: CALL i was basically going Off Officer shoubin's experience and
11:20
Speaker 4: what he was saying like this is we're going to
11:22
Speaker 4: hold here and tell you.
11:23
Speaker 2: Enough, Right lane had been a police officer for four.
11:27
Speaker 2: Days then he reveals another crucial. Fact, listen, well.
11:31
Speaker 1: You heard in contact with him before the.
11:33
Speaker 2: State him meaning children, Again, yes.
11:39
Speaker 1: Okay so.
11:41
Speaker 4: He was one of the other training offers in the
11:43
Speaker 4: precentct THAT i worked, Then SO i had interaction With
11:47
Speaker 4: chin before to the, incident and, uh you, know he
11:52
Speaker 4: took me found how The Hamilton.
11:54
Speaker 2: Hall he had given me guidance on how to handle certain.
11:58
Speaker 2: Calls he says couldn't go, well.
12:01
Speaker 3: But somebody who used him as a resource during your
12:04
Speaker 3: ten day.
12:04
Speaker 1: Evaluation, yeah there.
12:07
Speaker 4: Was a few calls WHERE i was with another train,
12:11
Speaker 4: officer the think the advice on how the best dandel with.
12:15
Speaker 2: All Thomas lane's problem wasn't just that he had only
12:21
Speaker 2: been on the force for four, days that he was
12:23
Speaker 2: a rookie And chauvin was a nineteen year. Veteran it's
12:28
Speaker 2: That lane New. Chauvin he went To chauvin for. Advice
12:32
Speaker 2: how do you defy someone in that? Position not long,
12:48
Speaker 2: ago a Retired chicago police officer Named Jerry finnegan gave
12:52
Speaker 2: an interview to the Dog walk podcast hosted By eddie
12:56
Speaker 2: From Barstool.
12:57
Speaker 5: SPORTS i, mean, Honestly, EDDIE i LOVED i loved that.
13:01
Speaker 5: Job there wasn't a data goals. By i'm sixty one
13:04
Speaker 5: and there's there's not a data goals by. THAT i, Said,
13:06
Speaker 5: Fuck i'd like to be out, there you, know fucking
13:08
Speaker 5: j and these bad.
13:09
Speaker 2: Dudes finnigan is, fit close cropped. HAIR i don't think
13:13
Speaker 2: a cop movie has ever been made that didn't include
13:15
Speaker 2: someone who looks and sounds just Like Jerry.
13:18
Speaker 5: Finnegan the fucking adrenaline was just incredible and you. KNOW
13:23
Speaker 5: i used to, say it was like you would have
13:25
Speaker 5: ringside tickets to the greatest show On.
13:27
Speaker 2: Earth eddie And finnegan talked for almost an. Hour finnegan
13:31
Speaker 2: was promoting his new, Podcast the magnificently Titled Finnegan's, Take
13:36
Speaker 2: reminiscences from his years on the, force and at some,
13:39
Speaker 2: Point finnegan starts to speculate about why his path to
13:43
Speaker 2: promotion was so often blocked by his.
13:46
Speaker 5: BOSS i didn't know it at the, Time, eddie BUT
13:49
Speaker 5: i WAS i had the most complaints in the.
13:50
Speaker 6: City is that why he next to?
13:52
Speaker 7: You?
13:52
Speaker 5: Probably, yeah, yeah.
13:54
Speaker 6: Probably.
13:55
Speaker 2: Wait chicago police officers are ranked by their complaints the
14:00
Speaker 2: way pop music singles are ranked on The Billboard. Charts
14:04
Speaker 2: yes they. Are the rankings are compiled by an organization
14:08
Speaker 2: called The Citizens Police Data. Project their website consists of
14:13
Speaker 2: a searchable online database of two hundred and fifty thousand
14:17
Speaker 2: complaints lodged against members of THE cpd from nineteen eighty
14:21
Speaker 2: eight to twenty, eighteen and what you learn from looking
14:25
Speaker 2: at the list is that the distribution of problematic police
14:28
Speaker 2: officers within The Chicago Police department is not. Uniform those
14:34
Speaker 2: quarter of a million complaints are not evenly sprinkled across
14:38
Speaker 2: all the many thousands of officers in the. DATABASE a
14:41
Speaker 2: few cops have a lot of, complaints but the majority
14:45
Speaker 2: have almost. None if you made a graph out of
14:48
Speaker 2: the Whole Chicago Police, department there would be a, long
14:51
Speaker 2: low line stretching as far as the eye could, see
14:55
Speaker 2: hovering just above the horizontal axis until the very, end
14:59
Speaker 2: when the line would suddenly. Jump as the statisticians would,
15:03
Speaker 2: say the distribution of complaints has a fat. Tail and
15:07
Speaker 2: who stands at the very fattest part of the? Tale Jerry,
15:11
Speaker 2: finnigan recipient of a grand total of one hundred and
15:16
Speaker 2: seventy five.
15:17
Speaker 8: Complaints do you remember the war the day that you
15:20
Speaker 8: decide to go on the?
15:21
Speaker 1: Take so to? Speak?
15:23
Speaker 6: Yeah can you get into that?
15:25
Speaker 4: One?
15:25
Speaker 1: Sure.
15:25
Speaker 5: Sure we we came into a house in the Eleventh,
15:28
Speaker 5: district chased a guy in there with a, gun and
15:31
Speaker 5: uh searching, around found some dope that was bagged, up
15:36
Speaker 5: kept searching and found a paper bag with. Money there
15:38
Speaker 5: were about eight of, us and took the money out
15:41
Speaker 5: of her and then split it. Up and THEN i don't,
15:44
Speaker 5: know was nervous about, it but after it was, OVER
15:48
Speaker 5: i was, thinking fucking it's dope. Money i'm not. Hurt
15:50
Speaker 5: i'm not taking it from you know your.
15:52
Speaker 2: Grandmother vinigan ended up doing ten years in prison for
15:56
Speaker 2: tax evasion and planning a murder for higher plot against
15:59
Speaker 2: a fellow. Officer he also cost the city over a
16:03
Speaker 2: million dollars in legal, settlements, which given his position As
16:07
Speaker 2: Alex luthor Of chicago play police, officers shouldn't be that
16:11
Speaker 2: much of a. Surprise problems with fat tales turn out
16:15
Speaker 2: to be. Everywhere here's another. One New York city has
16:19
Speaker 2: twenty five hundred automated cameras which in twenty twenty three
16:23
Speaker 2: handed out seven million speeding. Tickets but are those tickets
16:27
Speaker 2: evenly distributed across all the city's. Drivers, no there's a fat.
16:32
Speaker 2: Tale there were one hundred and eighty six drivers who
16:37
Speaker 2: got more than one hundred tickets in one. Ear that's
16:41
Speaker 2: an average of one ticket every three to four. Days super.
16:45
Speaker 2: Speeders most of us get a ticket and slow down next.
16:49
Speaker 2: Time we take the. Hint not the. Superspeeders on, average
16:52
Speaker 2: that group of one hundred and eighty six each had
16:56
Speaker 2: eleven thousand dollars in unpaid traffic. Fines in my last,
17:02
Speaker 2: Book revenge of the tipping. POINT i had a whole
17:04
Speaker 2: chapter ON. Covid you know, WHAT covid was fat. Tale
17:09
Speaker 2: most of, us when we were infected WITH, covid emitted
17:12
Speaker 2: such a small amount of virus that we didn't pose
17:14
Speaker 2: that much of a danger to. Others but there are
17:17
Speaker 2: a very small number of people, who for reasons we
17:20
Speaker 2: don't entirely, understand when they HAVE, covid produce a massive
17:24
Speaker 2: amount of virus super. Spreaders those are the ones who cause.
17:28
Speaker 2: OUTBREAKS i could go. On the lesson Of New york's
17:33
Speaker 2: super speeders And COVID's super spreaders is that before you
17:37
Speaker 2: figure out how to solve a, problem you have to ask.
17:41
Speaker 2: Yourself AM i dealing with a skinny tail distribution where
17:44
Speaker 2: everyone plays a roughly equal part in contributing to the,
17:47
Speaker 2: Issue or DO i have a fat tail distribution where
17:51
Speaker 2: my problem is a very small number of very rotten.
17:54
Speaker 2: Apples the world's problems are divided into fat tales and skinny,
17:59
Speaker 2: tales and policing is most definitely fat.
18:04
Speaker 9: TAIL i, mean even you Mentioned George. Floyd In, chicago
18:10
Speaker 9: we had The lawan MacDonald shooting where he was murdered sixteen.
18:14
Speaker 9: Times he was shot by the, cops and those cops
18:17
Speaker 9: were in the top six percent of the police. Force
18:21
Speaker 9: they've been involved in payouts from the city for misconduct
18:24
Speaker 9: and use of, force and tens of millions of dollars
18:27
Speaker 9: before the.
18:27
Speaker 2: Shooting That's Andrew, papachristos a criminologist At Northwestern. University if
18:33
Speaker 2: you're a regular, listener you've heard him on this podcast.
18:36
Speaker 2: Before he's talking about a police officer Named Jason Van,
18:40
Speaker 2: dyck another member of The Chicago Police DEPARTMENT Usu Force,
18:43
Speaker 2: peloton who shot a, Teenager lakwan, MacDonald sixteen times for
18:49
Speaker 2: no apparent.
18:50
Speaker 9: Reason so if you had gotten rid of this small
18:53
Speaker 9: percentage or done something different besides shuffle them, around not
18:57
Speaker 9: only would you have saved, lives you would have saved
18:59
Speaker 9: tens of millions of. Dollars you would have saved all
19:02
Speaker 9: of the trauma associated With lawan McDonald's, shooting the unrest
19:05
Speaker 9: in the, city how it layered into these.
19:06
Speaker 2: Things it's not just though that the officers at the
19:11
Speaker 2: very edge of the distribution do more bad things than anyone.
19:14
Speaker 2: Else it's, that and this is, crucial they lead, others
19:19
Speaker 2: people who wouldn't otherwise be in the fat tale to
19:22
Speaker 2: do bad things as.
19:23
Speaker 9: Well there are a bunch of studies ours included that
19:26
Speaker 9: show my bad behavior as a police officer is actually
19:30
Speaker 9: affected by the bad behavior of my, Partners so over,
19:33
Speaker 9: Time i'm going to look more like.
19:35
Speaker 2: You this is called network, spillover And Papa cristo's was
19:40
Speaker 2: part of a group of criminologists who used The Citizens
19:43
Speaker 2: Police Data project to figure out exactly how large this
19:47
Speaker 2: spillover effect. Is they looked at that mountain of data
19:51
Speaker 2: and grouped all of the officers in, networks drawing lines
19:55
Speaker 2: between the people who worked. Together they found that if
19:59
Speaker 2: there was no one in your network who received a
20:02
Speaker 2: use of force, complaint then your chance of getting a
20:05
Speaker 2: use of force complaint was. Minimal but if you had
20:08
Speaker 2: even a modest number of aggressive officers in your, circle
20:12
Speaker 2: your chances of being accused of violence went up by
20:16
Speaker 2: twenty six, percent which is. Massive and this is the
20:22
Speaker 2: problem With Derek. Chauvin he's in The Minneapolis Police Department's Fat.
20:27
Speaker 2: Tale he was the poster child for The Minneapolis Fat.
20:31
Speaker 2: Tale he had a mountain of complaints and because he's
20:34
Speaker 2: a training, officer a nineteen year, veteran the senior officer
20:38
Speaker 2: in nearly every crime scene he arrives, at he spills
20:42
Speaker 2: over into his. Network If chauvin had never shown up that,
20:47
Speaker 2: night if the second squad car never got, called if
20:50
Speaker 2: the whole incident was managed entirely By lane and his,
20:54
Speaker 2: Partner George floyd would have. Lived Thomas lane would have
20:59
Speaker 2: rolled him. Over there would have been no national eruption
21:02
Speaker 2: of pain and. Outrage you wouldn't even know the Name George.
21:05
Speaker 2: Floyd But chauvin shows. Up that's the core of the.
21:09
Speaker 2: Problem on the corner of thirty eighth In.
21:11
Speaker 7: CHICAGO i think anyone who sits through all of that,
21:20
Speaker 7: evidence you, know they hear a couple of times that
21:22
Speaker 7: Officer lane talks about potentially rolling him.
21:28
Speaker 2: Over That's Amanda, sertic one of THE us attorneys who Prosecuted.
21:33
Speaker 2: Lane she knows the evidence well and specifically the Role
21:36
Speaker 2: lane and his Partner Alexander king played that.
21:39
Speaker 7: DAY i think he's actually the one who announces When
21:42
Speaker 7: George floyd passes, out so though he's passing, out, yeah
21:46
Speaker 7: and then he's sitting right there next To king When
21:50
Speaker 7: king twice SAYS i can't find a, pulse and they
21:54
Speaker 7: both continue to restrain him for more than two. Minutes
21:58
Speaker 7: after they know he doesn't have a. PULSE i think
22:02
Speaker 7: that's the point WHERE i, mean it just becomes unacceptable
22:07
Speaker 7: not to. Intervene you, know it doesn't take any sort
22:11
Speaker 7: of training, whatsoever as the you, know the witness is
22:17
Speaker 7: on scene, demonstrated it doesn't take any training or even
22:21
Speaker 7: more than a few years on the earth to recognize
22:24
Speaker 7: that he needs medical. Assistance and you can't have someone
22:28
Speaker 7: mean and on his.
22:28
Speaker 2: Neck lane ended up spending two and a half years
22:32
Speaker 2: in federal prison for his part In floyd's. Death sertig
22:36
Speaker 2: and her colleagues felt that he bore at least some
22:39
Speaker 2: portion of the. BLAME i understand their, argument ALTHOUGH i
22:42
Speaker 2: have to SAY i do not agree with. IT a
22:45
Speaker 2: rookie cop on his fourth day on the force tries
22:49
Speaker 2: to write a wrong and fails because his superior officer
22:53
Speaker 2: is a bad. Apple can we really blame? Him haven't
22:58
Speaker 2: all of us in other situations done a version of
23:01
Speaker 2: the same act of mitigated? Speech are you sure we
23:04
Speaker 2: should do? That that's a little, much don't you? Think
23:07
Speaker 2: is that really? Safe but WHERE i hope we can
23:12
Speaker 2: all agree is on the broader lesson here one bad
23:16
Speaker 2: apple can infect the whole. Barrel the fat tail, matters
23:21
Speaker 2: which is why the first step in any attempt to
23:23
Speaker 2: fix the problem with a fat tail distribution is to
23:26
Speaker 2: get rid of the fat tail Target the super speeders
23:30
Speaker 2: contain the super. Spreaders get rid Of Jerry. Finnegan Stop
23:35
Speaker 2: Derek chauvin before he kills, someone not. Afterwards, right if
23:41
Speaker 2: only that's. Simple in the fevered days After floyd, died
23:56
Speaker 2: there were hundreds of people on the streets Of. Minneapolis
24:00
Speaker 2: peaceful protests turned into riots and. Lootings buildings were, burned
24:05
Speaker 2: hundreds of millions of dollars of damage was, done and
24:08
Speaker 2: one night the crowd came calling For Jacob, fry the
24:12
Speaker 2: mayor Of.
24:13
Speaker 8: Minneapolis there was a group of about two thousand people
24:21
Speaker 8: that came to my home and they demanded THAT i
24:26
Speaker 8: come out and talk to. Them AND i certainly was
24:30
Speaker 8: not in the habit of avoiding my position on the,
24:34
Speaker 8: topic and so my, wife who was seven months pregnant or,
24:38
Speaker 8: so Said, HEY i could get out there and just
24:40
Speaker 8: tell the.
24:40
Speaker 2: Truth fry was thirty nine at the, time he'd been
24:44
Speaker 2: elected mayor three years, earlier.
24:47
Speaker 8: AND i have security or. ANYTHING i walked out. There
24:50
Speaker 8: they called me up to the front and asked IF
24:52
Speaker 8: i would defund the. Police and at the, time this
24:55
Speaker 8: was a very new, phrase and SO i asked them
24:58
Speaker 8: what they meant by, it and they, say, well why
25:01
Speaker 8: don't you get.
25:02
Speaker 3: Rid of the.
25:02
Speaker 8: Police it was pretty, clear AND i said, no AND
25:08
Speaker 8: i got shamed and.
25:11
Speaker 2: Booed in the footage of the demonstration that played on
25:19
Speaker 2: the evening, news you can see the mayor walking stiffly
25:22
Speaker 2: through the, crowd wearing a mask that SAYS i can't.
25:26
Speaker 8: BREATHE i, mean it was Like game Of throne, style
25:29
Speaker 8: walking through a ton of people that were throwing things
25:32
Speaker 8: at me and spitting on. Me BUT i was CERTAIN
25:34
Speaker 8: i did the right. Thing there was no question in
25:36
Speaker 8: my mind that refusing to defund the police was the
25:40
Speaker 8: right thing to.
25:41
Speaker 2: Do fry was following the logic of the fat. Tail,
25:46
Speaker 2: yes there may have been frustration with law enforcement at,
25:48
Speaker 2: large but if the problem is a small number of bad,
25:52
Speaker 2: apples then what sense is there in upending the whole.
25:55
Speaker 2: Institution what you should be doing is cutting off the fat.
25:59
Speaker 2: Tail the crowds outside gented defund the, police but in,
26:04
Speaker 2: Response fry started making a different. Argument this is what
26:08
Speaker 2: the mayor. Said one of the first of the many
26:10
Speaker 2: press conferences he gave after the death Of George. Floyd
26:14
Speaker 2: unless we are willing to tackle the elephant in the,
26:17
Speaker 2: room which is the police, union there won't be a
26:20
Speaker 2: culture shift in the. Department could you talk a little
26:24
Speaker 2: bit more about that in the context Of. Minneapolis when
26:27
Speaker 2: you said, that what did you.
26:28
Speaker 8: Mean so here's basically what happened over several decades with
26:32
Speaker 8: this collective bargaining. Agreement the raises were limited in exchange
26:41
Speaker 8: for giving over to The Police federation quite a bit
26:44
Speaker 8: of managerial, authority and so the practice largely was let's
26:51
Speaker 8: keep people's property taxes down so that you don't have
26:54
Speaker 8: these magnificent increases in, wage and an exchange for, that
27:01
Speaker 8: the chief will hand over authorities that should so obviously
27:06
Speaker 8: be with the.
27:07
Speaker 2: Chief the shoe fry is talking about the Police federation
27:12
Speaker 2: or the union having more authority than it. Should has
27:15
Speaker 2: become a common complaint in many of the cities as.
27:18
Speaker 6: Well everyone thinks that a police chief should just get
27:22
Speaker 6: rid of bad.
27:23
Speaker 2: Cops That's Daniel. Oates he started his career in the
27:27
Speaker 2: nineteen eighties in THEN mipd and rose to be chief
27:30
Speaker 2: of four separate big city police. Departments After George floyd was,
27:34
Speaker 2: killed he wrote an op ed for The Washington. Post
27:37
Speaker 2: you could be forgiven if you missed. It it was
27:40
Speaker 2: a pretty technical analysis of law enforcement collective bargaining.
27:43
Speaker 6: Agreements WHAT i tried to explain in That post article
27:47
Speaker 6: is that we as a, democracy in all the societies
27:51
Speaker 6: in WHICH i, worked the four major cities in WHICH i,
27:53
Speaker 6: worked the voter is created inhibitors to the police chief
28:00
Speaker 6: simply firing someone who deserves to be.
28:02
Speaker 2: Fired at one point in his, Career oates was chief
28:06
Speaker 2: of police In, Aurora, colorado mid sized suburb Of. Denver
28:11
Speaker 2: he had six hundred and fifty officers in his. Department
28:15
Speaker 2: in his more than eight years as, chief there were
28:17
Speaker 2: sixteen he wanted to. Fire that was his fat. TAIL
28:21
Speaker 2: a very small number of his officers were proving to
28:24
Speaker 2: be a. Problem they were, violent they had drinking. Problems
28:28
Speaker 2: he caught them lying on their field, reports on and.
28:31
Speaker 2: On he negotiated complicated severance agreements with twelve of the.
28:36
Speaker 2: Sixteen they agreed to leave The aurora, pade but with
28:40
Speaker 2: a clean, record so it was possible for them to
28:43
Speaker 2: get a job somewhere. Else the remaining four he, fired
28:47
Speaker 2: but then in three of those, cases his decision was
28:50
Speaker 2: reversed on, appeal so of the sixteen bad apples who
28:54
Speaker 2: he thought were not worthy of a role in law,
28:57
Speaker 2: enforcement he succeeded in removing. One the problem is that
29:04
Speaker 2: many police union contracts are full of provisions that hamper
29:08
Speaker 2: internal investigations of. Wrongdoing in a normal criminal, investigation the
29:13
Speaker 2: police questioned any suspect as soon as, Possible but in
29:17
Speaker 2: investigations of allegations against, officers many unions delay that first
29:22
Speaker 2: round of questioning for, days if not, weeks long enough
29:26
Speaker 2: for stories to be straightened, out and before that first,
29:30
Speaker 2: interview in some, cities the police department has to hand
29:33
Speaker 2: over all of its evidence and witnesses in advance to
29:37
Speaker 2: the defendant's, attorney a practice that would be highly unusual
29:41
Speaker 2: in a standard criminal. Investigation Daniel oates says that he
29:45
Speaker 2: ran into this problem when he was called in to
29:48
Speaker 2: clean up The Miami Beach Police.
29:50
Speaker 6: Department, so as you can, imagine once you pour over
29:54
Speaker 6: all the evidence with your, attorney you understand what management
29:59
Speaker 6: has and what management can, prove and you can tailor
30:02
Speaker 6: your answers to questions so as to avoid the worst possible.
30:08
Speaker 6: Sanction effectively if. Necessary you, know if to save your,
30:13
Speaker 6: job you can lie because you know management can't disprove the.
30:17
Speaker 2: Law did they change that provision in your?
30:20
Speaker 1: Time?
30:20
Speaker 6: There, No, No i've still a stayed lawed for how?
30:23
Speaker 2: Much did? That in the end frustrate your ability to
30:27
Speaker 2: improve the quality of policing In Mayo?
30:29
Speaker 6: Beach it makes it extremely.
30:31
Speaker 2: CHALLENGING a small number of officers betray the standards of the,
30:37
Speaker 2: profession but unions protect that fat. Tale it's not the
30:42
Speaker 2: ninety five percent of, honest hardworking police officers who need
30:46
Speaker 2: an extra few weeks to get their stories, straight or
30:49
Speaker 2: who require advanced access to all the evidence and witnesses against.
30:53
Speaker 2: Them Jerry finnigan needs all those. Things Derek chauvin needs
30:58
Speaker 2: all those. Things, somehow a system intended to serve the
31:02
Speaker 2: interests of the many in the thin tail has ended
31:05
Speaker 2: up serving the interests of the crooked few in the fat.
31:08
Speaker 10: TAIL i can tell you this that nobody despises bad
31:12
Speaker 10: cops more than good.
31:13
Speaker 2: Cops That's kathleen. O'Toole she ran both The seattle And
31:17
Speaker 2: boston police.
31:18
Speaker 10: Departments WHEN i fired, people, INEVITABLY i received countless messages
31:24
Speaker 10: from other police officers who, said, Well, chief that should
31:27
Speaker 10: have happened ten years.
31:28
Speaker 2: Ago now, suppose even given all these, impediments a police
31:33
Speaker 2: chief does manage to terminate a problematic, officer the fight isn't.
31:38
Speaker 2: Over there is one final, impediment maybe the biggest of.
31:42
Speaker 2: All the officer has the right of. Appeal in many,
31:46
Speaker 2: cases the accused officer is allowed to restart the entire
31:50
Speaker 2: process from, scratch only this time not with an impartial,
31:54
Speaker 2: judge but with an arbitrator that the union.
31:57
Speaker 1: Plays a role in.
31:58
Speaker 2: Choosing with the, result, well you can. GUESS a law
32:03
Speaker 2: professor In chicago Named Stephen russian recently made a list
32:07
Speaker 2: of how often a fired police officer gets reinstated on
32:11
Speaker 2: appeal in most Big american. Cities Ready Miami dade thirty seven,
32:17
Speaker 2: Percent Oklahoma city forty, Percent phoenix forty, Percent washington d.
32:24
Speaker 2: C forty five, Percent philadelphia sixty two, Percent denver sixty seven,
32:29
Speaker 2: percent and, finally the grand prize, Winner San antonio seventy.
32:34
Speaker 2: Percent and where did this exact scenario play Out Minneapolis
32:40
Speaker 2: in the years leading up to the death Of George.
32:43
Speaker 8: Floyd there are more than a few instances when we
32:49
Speaker 8: have terminated someone it works its way up through that,
32:51
Speaker 8: arbitration and the arbitration then overturns the decision that we.
32:55
Speaker 8: Made how does that feel for a chief who's making tough.
32:58
Speaker 8: Calls you make the tough, call you spend a ton
33:03
Speaker 8: of attorney time litigating a, case and then he ultimately.
33:06
Speaker 8: Lose that person comes back on how does that help?
33:10
Speaker 8: Culture because that same person is going to talk to
33:12
Speaker 8: all the other officers, saying, HEY i did this. THING
33:14
Speaker 8: i got. Off this whole concept of a chief making
33:18
Speaker 8: a decision to terminate or discipline and having that decision
33:21
Speaker 8: overturned is detrimental to that chief's ability to run a
33:25
Speaker 8: police department and shift the. Culture they got to be
33:28
Speaker 8: able to set the.
33:28
Speaker 2: Tone Jacob fry had first hand evidence of what happens
33:33
Speaker 2: when you can't set the. Tone Derek, chauvin he didn't
33:37
Speaker 2: suddenly emerge as a bad apple on the night Of
33:40
Speaker 2: may twenty, fifth twenty. Twenty he'd been a bad apple
33:42
Speaker 2: for a long. Time you heard the tape in the
33:45
Speaker 2: last episode in twenty, seventeen he beat a kid over
33:49
Speaker 2: the head with a, flashlight opening a wound that required,
33:51
Speaker 2: stitches then put him in a Choke cald threw him
33:54
Speaker 2: on the ground and put his knee on his neck
33:57
Speaker 2: while the boy sobbed in, pain all for no. Reason
34:01
Speaker 2: that was his trademark. Move the other officers didn't say,
34:05
Speaker 2: Anything they just walked silently out of the. Room so
34:09
Speaker 2: the Bad apple stayed in the barrel for three more
34:12
Speaker 2: years until he comes Across George floyd on the corner
34:16
Speaker 2: of thirty eighth In chicago and puts his knee in
34:19
Speaker 2: his neck and just stays, there even After floyd has stopped,
34:23
Speaker 2: breathing And Thomas lane tries to get him to stop multiple,
34:28
Speaker 2: times but then he just gives up and sits there
34:32
Speaker 2: On floyd's dead, body just Like Derek. Schauman Revision's history
34:53
Speaker 2: is produced By Nina, Bird, Lawrence Lucy, sullivan And Ben Nadaph.
34:57
Speaker 2: Haffrey our editor Is Karen schakerji fact Checking Sam, russick
35:03
Speaker 2: mastering By Jake. Gorsky production support From Luke. Leman our
35:07
Speaker 2: executive producer Is Jacob. Smith special thanks To Sarah nix
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Speaker 2: and L. Hafey credit Cone I'm Malcolm. Gabba get add
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