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Why Doesn't Grief End When Everyone Expects You to Move On? · Groove with Portia

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Guru Portia, the podcast that uncovers the hidden
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: treasures within grief. I'm your host, Portia, the producer, and
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: I'm inviting you to join me on a transformative journey
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: where we will exchange laughter. Of course, the best medicine
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: of them all. Reflect on cherished memories. Remember that time
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: that the little boy grabbed my hand instead of his
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: mother's at the amusement park?
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: Yikes.
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  Speaker 1: And of course, discover gratitude while navigating one of life's
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  Speaker 1: hardest challenges, loss. So get ready to grew with me, Portia,
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  Speaker 1: the producer. Let's dive in. So Why, hello, everyone, and
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: welcome back to Guru with Portia. I'm your host, Portia Booker.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: And as always, don't forget to like, share, and subscribe
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: to keep up with all things Guru with Portia. One
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  Speaker 1: of the things that I often think about is, as
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  Speaker 1: individuals who have experienced loss transitions, when we look at
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  Speaker 1: society and the model of the three days of bereavement,
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  Speaker 1: maybe five days of bereavement, yet those of us who
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  Speaker 1: know that that's not enough time, why do we continue
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  Speaker 1: to still push that? When the minute that someone gets
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  Speaker 1: that phone call, that their loved one made their transition,
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  Speaker 1: that an emergency happened, that individual is no longer the
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  Speaker 1: same person that you are used to seeing every single day.
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  Speaker 1: Let that sink in. So today, everyone, I'm going to
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  Speaker 1: be joined by an individual who who is also no
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  Speaker 1: stranger to the societal narratives of the grief journey. She
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  Speaker 1: has experienced the transition of her father, but the beautiful
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: part that I always say about grief is that grief
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  Speaker 1: is the birthplace of transition. She is the author of
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  Speaker 1: the new book titled Broken Hearts Keep Beating. So without
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  Speaker 1: further delay, welcome to Grew Up Portia, Ms. Denise Ackerman. Denise,
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: how are you today?
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  Speaker 2: Thank you, Portia. I'm I'm very excited to be here.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. And let's dive into it.
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  Speaker 1: Denise, lots of love to you because I'm also in
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: the relatable boat as you of losing both my mother
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  Speaker 1: and my father. So big hug to you from over
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  Speaker 1: here in the United States. Denise, before we jump into
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  Speaker 1: your book and also the transition of your father, I'd
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  Speaker 1: like to take a moment to honor him. Can you
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  Speaker 1: share with our audience who was your dad and what's
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  Speaker 1: something about him you wish more people had the opportunity
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  Speaker 1: to know?
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  Speaker 2: My dad and I, we had a very close relationship.
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  Speaker 2: He was, I think my mom always said we connected minds, right?
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  Speaker 2: And somehow we were thinking alike, actually since I was
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  Speaker 2: very young as a child and As I grew into
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  Speaker 2: an adult and started my family and into my older years,
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  Speaker 2: we stayed very close. And yeah, he was always there
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  Speaker 2: for me. Not only were we thinking in a very
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: similar way, but he was also always there for me.
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  Speaker 2: He was my rock and my anchor. Yeah, and I
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  Speaker 2: miss that. I miss that a lot. And he was
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  Speaker 2: a very positive person. He had this incredible positivity. And yeah, and,
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  Speaker 2: you know, whenever I struggled with something, he always made
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  Speaker 2: me believe that everything will be okay. And at this point,
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  Speaker 2: I mean, I also would like to acknowledge your mom.
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  Speaker 2: I know you lost your mom. As you mentioned, 22.
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  Speaker 2: And I think we share something in common because after
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  Speaker 2: the loss of your mom and then your dad as well,
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  Speaker 2: you had this transition how to find your groove, right?
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  Speaker 2: Despite adversity. And that's where you and I, I think,
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  Speaker 2: have a lot of, at least some things in common.
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  Speaker 2: That through grief and through the loss of loved ones,
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  Speaker 2: we were able to rebuild our lives and find joy
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  Speaker 2: in life again.
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  Speaker 1: And Denise, I know it probably wasn't easy to take
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  Speaker 1: a step back to talk about that support from your dad.
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  Speaker 1: Because what I often find is that those of us
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  Speaker 1: who have experienced that transition of our person, the one
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  Speaker 1: who gave us the encouraging words, my mom would always say,
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  Speaker 1: make the best of it, darling. And when we find
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  Speaker 1: ourselves in that boat, yet society is not able to
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  Speaker 1: meet us with that compassion, with that also understanding that
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  Speaker 1: we're no longer the same people. when we experience that
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  Speaker 1: transition in our life.
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  Speaker 2: Exactly. There's one thing where there's a before and there's
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  Speaker 2: an after. For me, that's, I mean, that's exactly what you,
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  Speaker 2: what you say. There is, we're not supposed, and I
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  Speaker 2: think we don't need to be the same person we
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  Speaker 2: were before. Right. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Denise, one of the things that I know, you talk
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  Speaker 1: about is how misunderstood grief can be. And both of
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  Speaker 1: us know that from the different people we've interacted with,
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  Speaker 1: our families who also experienced the same transition, but their
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  Speaker 1: grief journey looks way different than us. And I'm curious, Denise,
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  Speaker 1: was there something you needed from the people around you
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  Speaker 1: that you struggled to explain to them even to those who,
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  Speaker 1: as I mentioned, your loved ones, your kids, even to
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  Speaker 1: them who know you, who see you on a daily basis?
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  Speaker 2: I think it wasn't necessarily from my immediate family or
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  Speaker 2: from my friends, because I have to say I was
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  Speaker 2: very lucky, or I'm very lucky that I had a
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  Speaker 2: lot of support also from my friends and family. But
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  Speaker 2: what I've what I realized is that society in general,
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  Speaker 2: let's say not the immediate close friends and family, society
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  Speaker 2: in general is struggling to understand grief and to acknowledge
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  Speaker 2: grief and to address it. And that's why a lot
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  Speaker 2: of grieving people feel alone. They feel misunderstood. And not
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  Speaker 2: everybody is lucky enough to have close immediate family or
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  Speaker 2: very close friends. So they don't know where to turn to.
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  Speaker 2: And especially, I think, grief in general or the loss
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  Speaker 2: of the transition of a person makes people in society
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  Speaker 2: feel uncomfortable. They don't know what to say or they
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  Speaker 2: say the wrong things without wanting to. But because this
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  Speaker 2: is a topic our society doesn't... doesn't acknowledge, even though
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  Speaker 2: we have so many millions of people every year transitioning,
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  Speaker 2: yet it's a topic which is still not... which is
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  Speaker 2: almost like a taboo. We expect it to be perfect.
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  Speaker 2: We expect it to be... I mean, not perfect, but
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  Speaker 2: we expect it to be functioning. And yet it's... When
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  Speaker 2: you understand a little bit how grief functions in the
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  Speaker 2: brain and in the body, but especially in the brain,
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  Speaker 2: we are not actually... on a physiological level, able to
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  Speaker 2: function after three days or after five days after a
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  Speaker 2: profound loss. And this helped me to, understanding this really
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  Speaker 2: helped me in my recovery journey.
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  Speaker 1: And Denise, I'm glad you brought up about the societal
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  Speaker 1: response when it comes to grief, transitions. there's a three-day
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  Speaker 1: policy in most places, then that can even change depending
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  Speaker 1: on who the loss is. For some places, some people
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  Speaker 1: were raised by their step-parents. And certain employers categorize step-parents
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  Speaker 1: in the same as a cousin or a friend. And
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  Speaker 1: I think there's this level of we support you But
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  Speaker 1: that support doesn't often come in the way that you
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  Speaker 1: truly need it. And I can recall a few of
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  Speaker 1: my friends who hold corporate roles and they experienced the
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  Speaker 1: transition of a sibling or a child and they were
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  Speaker 1: met with this notion of, if you need anything, you
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  Speaker 1: call me, but then I call you and you don't
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  Speaker 1: answer the phone or I tell you that I need,
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  Speaker 1: Can you send me a meal for the day because
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  Speaker 1: I do not have the physical or brain capacity to
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  Speaker 1: feed myself because my focus is on prepping funeral arrangements.
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  Speaker 2: Exactly.
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  Speaker 1: Or if there's estate stuff or if also there are
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  Speaker 1: other more complicated matters. That's where my brain is.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
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  Speaker 1: Alone, I'm still under this pressure to be a employee
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  Speaker 1: that never experienced adversity, even though now that I'm in
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  Speaker 1: this club that I never signed up for, now I'm
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  Speaker 1: forced to To be someone who I'm not and I'm
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  Speaker 1: not OK, but I'm not safe to say that I'm
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  Speaker 1: not OK.
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  Speaker 2: Exactly. Because because your employer expects you to be productive. Yes.
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  Speaker 2: Even though, you know, you have your targets or, you know,
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  Speaker 2: your goals. how do you say it?
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  Speaker 1: What you have to meet every day, your productivity level.
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  Speaker 2: Your goals, your targets, your tasks. You have to do
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  Speaker 2: and to deliver. And you're expected to do that. And
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  Speaker 2: I just want to quickly go back to what you
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  Speaker 2: said about you mentioned that not necessarily about only in
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  Speaker 2: a company, but people say Let me know what you need, right?
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  Speaker 2: I mean, this is well meant, but when we are
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  Speaker 2: experiencing deep grief and loss and shock, we don't know
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  Speaker 2: what we need. We just simply don't know. So to
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  Speaker 2: all the listeners of this podcast who want to help
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  Speaker 2: a grieving friend, my suggestion is that don't say, Call
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  Speaker 2: me when you need help because grieving people don't know
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  Speaker 2: what they need. But instead of saying that, say, hey,
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  Speaker 2: I'm going grocery shopping tonight. Can I pick up something
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  Speaker 2: for you? Or can I bring dinner over on Wednesday
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  Speaker 2: or Thursday? Or can I take your dog for a
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  Speaker 2: walk or at work? Can I help you with some
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  Speaker 2: of the tasks, right? It's important to offer specific help.
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  Speaker 2: So that as a grieving person, you can say yes
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  Speaker 2: or no, or it just helps because as a grieving person,
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  Speaker 2: you're not going to pick up the phone and phone
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  Speaker 2: someone and say, Hey, I need help. Right. I mean,
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  Speaker 2: most people won't do that. So I just wanted to
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  Speaker 2: say that because I think for me, that was really important.
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  Speaker 2: You know, when I had a neighbor coming to my door,
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  Speaker 2: bringing a cooked meal, Or a friend of mine, she left,
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  Speaker 2: that was after the first few days, she left my
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  Speaker 2: favorite sandwiches she got from the bakery in my, we
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  Speaker 2: have like post boxes, right? And she sent me a
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  Speaker 2: text message, hey, your favorite sandwiches are there. And these
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  Speaker 2: are such little things which meant the world to me
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  Speaker 2: and made a huge difference. So I.
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  Speaker 1: Just wanted to share that.
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  Speaker 2: That was important to me as well.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I will also add to that a little
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  Speaker 1: bit of a difference. When my mom made her transition,
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  Speaker 1: I reached out to certain friends and told them what
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  Speaker 1: I needed. I know not everybody is in the same
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  Speaker 1: position as me to recognize what they needed, but I
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  Speaker 1: would also encourage those of you who have experienced that
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  Speaker 1: transition and loss, really dive deeper into what you actually
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  Speaker 1: need And say yes to the help. When someone offers,
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  Speaker 1: just say yes. And it's okay if you may not know. Because,
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  Speaker 1: for example, I know some people are very private about
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  Speaker 1: their life. So if I know that someone in my
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: inner circle has experienced a transition, I will ask them
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  Speaker 1: if I can come over. I don't say what it is.
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  Speaker 1: I say, can I come over and sit with you?
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  Speaker 1: So I get permission first because you don't know everybody's
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  Speaker 1: a little different. But I also encourage those of you
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  Speaker 1: who have experienced a loss or transition to Think about
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  Speaker 1: really what you need and just say what it is
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  Speaker 1: that you need amongst those who you trust, those who
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: allow you to fall apart, let your ugly cry with
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: the snot coming out your nose type of thing. That's okay. Denise,
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  Speaker 1: before we continue with the conversation, if someone in our
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  Speaker 1: audience wants to get a copy of your book, if
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: you are doing any type of talks or in-person events,
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: how can our audience connect with you today?
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  Speaker 2: Well, the easiest way, thank you so much. The easiest
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  Speaker 2: way to connect with me is actually through my website.
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: It's deniseackerman.chcharliehotel, and not com, so deniseackerman.chcharliehotel. And then there's
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: a contact form. And then my book, Broken Hearts Keep Beating,
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  Speaker 2: is on Amazon. There is a Kindle version, paperback, and hardcover.
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: paperback and hardcover so they will find it on Amazon
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: and then I have a I share a lot about
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: my grief journey or motivational grief support on my TikTok
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: which is at grief to healing grief dot to to
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: dot healing and yeah and On my website, I also
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: have a grief care kit where I put together a
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: couple of resources where people, and there's free resources as well,
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  Speaker 2: which can help people in their grief. Excellent. And then
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: obviously I'm also available for interviews, speaking engagement and conversations,
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: and not only about grief and loss, but also how
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: to rebuild your life and find hope again.
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: Excellent. So for our audience who's tuning in, deniseackerman.ch, cat
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: and hotel. If you forget what we just said or
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: what this podcast is even about, you can use AI
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: to refresh your memory and figure out what it is
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: that we're doing. Denise, let's talk about your book. And
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  Speaker 1: I've never asked this question before amongst all the different
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: individuals who I have interviewed about their grief journeys. Your
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: book is titled Broken Hearts Keep Beating. And I'm not
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: sure if you're familiar with the song by the script
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: group where it's the song is called Break Even. And
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: the song is a breakup song. It's not a grief song.
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  Speaker 1: But the lyrics say when a heart breaks, it doesn't
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  Speaker 1: break even. And I'm curious, Denise, for our audience today,
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  Speaker 1: when you think about your own grief journey, is there
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  Speaker 1: a part of your heart still learning to heal, whether
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: it's the absence of your father, the support you needed
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: but didn't receive, or simply learning to experience life without him?
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  Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I'm in my year three now after
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  Speaker 2: losing my dad. And You know, grief comes in waves, right?
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  Speaker 2: Sometimes you're managing okay. And, you know, I'm half Spanish, right?
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  Speaker 2: So half Swiss and half Spanish. I love life, right?
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  Speaker 2: I have a lot of joy for life. And I
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: know my dad would want me to enjoy life and
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  Speaker 2: continue living. having great experiences, which I do, right, since
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: he transitioned. But now I lost my train of thought. Sorry,
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  Speaker 2: what was I going to say? That's grief. That's grief.
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  Speaker 2: That's a grief brain, right? So, yes, I still grieve
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  Speaker 2: my dad, even now, because when I have challenges, I
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  Speaker 2: keep thinking, What would he say? What would he advise me?
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  Speaker 2: I just want to hear his voice. And, you know,
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  Speaker 2: in some ways, the other day I listened to old
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: voice messages he left me on my phone, right? It's
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: like so hard and difficult to understand that this person
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  Speaker 2: is not there anymore, that this voice is not there anymore,
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  Speaker 2: to give you advice, but also just to be there,
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  Speaker 2: to have great conversation at 11 o'clock at night, right? So, yes,
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  Speaker 2: I do believe grief matters. And grief doesn't stop. Grief,
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  Speaker 2: I think you learn to, you know, like the word healing,
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: you learn to live with it. Healing means you learn
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  Speaker 2: to live with the grief, but the grief will always
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  Speaker 2: be there. You just learn to deal with it and
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: you learn how to integrate it into your life. And yes,
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: it shows up. I think it can show up in
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: year three, in year five, in year 10, or even
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  Speaker 2: year 15. So, yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And Denise, I appreciate you reinforcing that grief stays with us.
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  Speaker 1: It's a piece of the human experience. This person physically
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  Speaker 1: walked with you. They shared a meal with you. You
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: know what their voice sounds like. You know what kind
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: of clothes they wore. You knew what lit them up.
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: where it's hard for our brains. It reminds me of
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: when you're upgrading a computer and you have to rewire
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: it from all the old programming it takes time and
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  Speaker 1: the same with the grief journey when we experience that
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  Speaker 1: transition especially if this individual has been with you for
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: a long time I had both my parents for 30
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: years where some people don't have that luxury.
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  Speaker 2: Exactly. And you actually highlighted a very important part of
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: my own grief journey. At the beginning, I had all
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: these symptoms, right? I had grief brain. They call it
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: grief brain, brain fog. I couldn't think. I couldn't concentrate.
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: I had those physical symptoms, body aches, pains, Right. I
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: didn't know what was wrong. Well, I know I knew
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: I lost my dad, but I had all these symptoms.
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  Speaker 2: And then this is actually how my book also started
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: is I started to research what happens in our brains
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: when we lose a loved one, someone we were really close.
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  Speaker 2: And this is exactly what I also mentioned earlier. It's
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  Speaker 2: it takes our brains to, you know, in your case,
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  Speaker 2: You had 30 years, your brain had 30 years to
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: know that your parents are there. That's 30 years of memories.
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  Speaker 2: So when you lose of how the memories and the
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: brain is, your brain is actually connected to your parents.
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  Speaker 2: So when you lose a loved one, your mom, your dad,
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  Speaker 2: both in a very short period of time, your brain
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  Speaker 2: needs time to adjust that. because it's a physiological and
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: neurological experience, right? It doesn't take three days. It doesn't
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  Speaker 2: take five days. It takes months and years to actually
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: rewire your brain so that your brain understands that that
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: person is not there anymore. And because, for example, how
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: it happened to me, something happened right at work. I
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: wanted to pick up my phone and From my dad.
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  Speaker 2: And then the second later, I remembered, oh, he's not
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  Speaker 2: there anymore. I mean, this is a typical example how
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  Speaker 2: our brain still is rewiring itself to get used to
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  Speaker 2: that loss.
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  Speaker 1: Well, we're creatures of habit. So your brain is attempting
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: to go back to its normal routine, but it knows
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  Speaker 1: that something has been cut. A wire has been cut
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  Speaker 1: and it's figuring out how to go around or still
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: function as normal. But there's a, there's a restriction there.
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  Speaker 2: And your brain, sorry, sorry, just to add, your brain
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  Speaker 2: is trying to actually put that person somehow back into
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: your life. Right. And this is why it takes it.
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: This is why it takes time. And for me, and
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: hopefully some of our listeners this will help for me
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: understanding this how the brain works and it's also one
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: chapter in my book is I mean in a very
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: easy written way that was a foundation of my recovery
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: because I knew okay this is how our body is
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: actually working so I'm I mean, it's not only about that,
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: but it's also about a lot of practical tools and,
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: you know, what you can do to rebuild your life
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: and at different stages for different person. Because different things
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: work for different people in a different way at different stages, right?
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: So there's a lot of that in my book.
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: Well, with grief, you learn at some point to find
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: your own flow. and not the societal five stages. I'm
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: not going to go into that today. That's the thing
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: with grief. At some point, you eventually find your footing
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: where you're able to hold space for both the sadness
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: and the laughter. Denise, this has been a beautiful conversation.
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: I thank you so much for coming on. We're going
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: to be wrapping up here soon, but I have one
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: last question for you, Denise. After losing your father, learning
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: to carry your grief and now producing this book, for
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: our audience who's tuning in today, Denise, what does finding
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: your groove mean to you today?
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: Finding my groove means actually finding myself my way forward
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: and rebuilding my life while still, in my case, carrying
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: my dad in my heart. And something I want to
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: quickly mention also is I talk to my dad every day.
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: I'm sure you do to your mom as well. And
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: people may believe it or not, but I do believe
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: my dad sends me signs, which I understand, right? So
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: finding my groove is... Finding my groove is... is also
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: to finding joy and happiness again, to see the beauty
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: in my life and great experiences, travels, or beautiful experiences
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: I had with friends and family. So that is finding
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: my groove. But also a big part, I think, is
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: also realizing that actually peace and happiness, we can basically
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: only find it within ourselves. It comes from within ourselves
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: and not, it's important that we surround ourselves with caring people, right?
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: But the peace and happiness comes from within because we
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: can't control other people. We can't ultimately control society or
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: what people say or, you know, what happens in our lives,
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: but we can do, we can control how we react
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: and what we give energy to. And yeah. And focus
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: on the good things. That's finding my groove. And I'm
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: still working on it.
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: Excellent. And it is an evolving process, Denise.
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: You're in year three. This is year four for my
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: mom and year three for my dad. And certain times
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: of the year, I may feel different, especially around the holidays,
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: their birthdays, and their transition anniversaries. Well, everybody, that was
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: Denise Ackerman that you heard from today on Grew with Portia.
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: And that concludes our conversation. And until next time, everybody,
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: peace and hair grease, everyone.