Latest / Pod Save America / “CPAC: The Fascist & The Furious” (with Katie Porter & Dr. Vivek Murthy)

Transcript

“CPAC: The Fascist & The Furious” (with Katie Porter & Dr. Vivek Murthy) · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau. I'm Jon Lovett.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: I'm Tommy Vitor. One year and four months later, we
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: are back in the studio and I've never been happier.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: to see all of your smiling faces. You guys look good.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: Look at this. You have an age today. What a thing.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: What a thing, huh? It's weird. You're with my boys.
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: It does feel very, it feels nice, but it's very strange.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: I'm used to talking to you through a computer.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 0:45
  Speaker 3: Recording a podcast is a private thing. It's something I
• 0:46
  Speaker 3: do alone.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: In your house. Not anymore, John. On today's show, Donald
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: Trump inches closer to another run for the presidency. Gee,
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: it's like we never left a year later. That part sucks.
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: Representative Katie Porter chats with Tommy and Lovett about Biden's
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: new executive order that targets big business and big tech.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: And later, I talked to Surgeon General Dr. Vivek Murthy
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: about the Delta variant, booster shots, vaccine mandates, and more.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: But first, if you haven't already, don't miss out on
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: our new podcast, Edith, a scripted comedy starring Rosamund Pike
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: about America's secret first female president. We're about halfway through
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: the series, but it's not too late for you to
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: catch up. New episodes of Edith are released every Thursday,
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: and the first four are out now. Check it out.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: I've loved Edith. I've loved every episode so good. It's very,
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: very funny. It's a hit.
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: Sorry, Travis was tweeting photos of himself posing like Glenn
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: Beck over the weekend, who also was holding up a book.
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: The biography of Edith Wilson, I think, at CPAC for
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: some reason.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because they're doing a whole Jill Biden is like
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: Edith Wilson thing now. That's brewing on the right. Okay.
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: Jill Biden's pulling all the strings. She's got the marionette now.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: Right. Okay, so it's the worst reason they could be
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: holding her. Oh, yeah, the worst reason possible. Also, Jill Biden.
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: Jill Biden, the nicest human being on the planet.
• 2:01
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: I think they do it in shifts. I think Jill
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: Biden has the night shift. Kamala has the day shift
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: for operating Jill Biden like Weekend at Bernie's.
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: That clip will be used. on Ben Shapiro's show. Great. Hi, everybody.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: All right, let's get to the news. Donald Trump unsurprisingly
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: dominated this year's Conservative Political Action Committee, or CPAC, that
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: was held in Dallas, Texas over the weekend. He got
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: the prime speaking slot, he crushed the straw poll of attendees,
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: and every other speaker basically parroted all of Trump's lies
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: and grievances.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: Did you hear him crying about his time slot? It
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: was a solid two and a half minutes of his
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: speech whining about getting Sunday a match slap.
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: He said, give me your worst times. We actually did. Blah, blah, blah.
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: He was angry.
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: He was angry that he didn't get Friday night or
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: Saturday night. I mean, he really is just a touring.
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: I thought that was the prime slot. I thought that
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: was the prime slot. Sunday afternoon. All right. He was annoying.
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: He was pissed he couldn't golf. So we will have
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: a lot more on the former president in a bit.
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: But I do want to start with some other notable
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: CPAC moments like. a painting of Trump hugging and kissing
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: the flag that went for $ 25, 000. The founder of the
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: insurrectionist militia known as the Oath Keepers was seen enjoying
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: a beer. And here's how the audience reacted when they
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: heard that the federal government didn't meet its vaccination goal
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: by July 4th.
• 3:19
  Speaker 5: They were hoping, the government was hoping, that they could
• 3:22
  Speaker 5: sort of sucker 90% of the population into getting vaccinated.
• 3:26
  Speaker 4: And it isn't happening, right?
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: There's a... Younger people... are well aware of what the
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: risks really are. Lovett, do you get the sense that
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: a lot of Republican politicians and especially Republican media figures
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: are more openly anti-vax lately? Like, why do you think
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: they're going down this path? Frank Luntz told Andy Slavitt
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: on his pod today that Trump is sending out fundraising
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: mailers claiming that people are dying from the vaccines. Yeah,
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: I mean, they are.
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: I think a couple things are happening. One, this is
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: an extension of.
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: COVID is overblown.
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: So implicit in a lot of this is, oh, if
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: you're older, if you're in a risk category, you should
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: get vaccinated, but no one else needs to get vaccinated
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: because they're lying about how it's still, they don't recognize
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: how it can still hurt younger people.
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: And they don't recognize.
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: Mutual obligation, I guess, even if you accept that premise,
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: like why wouldn't you get this vaccine? It's harmless, obviously,
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: and will protect the older people who are more vulnerable.
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: The other piece of it is that we've sort of
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: hit the the kind of threshold where we've moved from
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: scarcity in this country to now it is time to
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: go to like local persuasion. Now it is time to
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: go to like trusted people in communities to get that
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: last group of people vaccinated. So then that put, that
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: gives them an opportunity. They can prevent Biden from succeeding.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: That's a goal. Uh, they can feed conspiratorial mindsets. That's
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: a goal.
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: They can keep the attention of like their broken viewers
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: who are, uh, easily pulled by OAN and Newsmax, which
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: are more conspiratorial. Um, And then when you talk about
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: things like needing to go inside of communities, they can
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: kind of fan the flames that this is some door-to-door
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: effort to kind of force people to get the vaccine.
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: And because Tucker Carlson and Laura Ingraham don't care if
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: people live or die and are completely valueless, it's an
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: opportunity for them to sow chaos. And the Republicans just
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: follow them along.
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: Permission to float a conspiracy theory? Yes. Permission granted. Absolutely.
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: That's what we do here.
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: Do you see Madison Cawthorn said that the reason they
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: were going door-to-door for vaccinations was to prepare to eventually
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: take away your gun and your Bible?
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: I did not see that. I knew that I saw
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: something stupid that Madison Cawthorn said was trending, but I
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: did not look into it. So thank you. It was
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: a good one. Well, no, but like the governor of Missouri.
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: I have a way worse conspiracy theory for you, John. So, right.
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: Part of what Love is saying is like Fauci is
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: the new boogeyman, right? Because Biden's boring.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: Here's the other thing I want to, this is my
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: conspiracy theory for you. So Kristi Noem made this oblique
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: attack on Republican governors who say they didn't lock down,
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: but they really locked down. She was sort of viewed
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: as an oblique shot at Ron DeSantis.
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: Do you think she's.
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: Doing this as a stalking horse for the Trump family
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: who's now worried about DeSantis?
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: Wow, you're deep in all of these. I read about
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: CPAC all weekend. I missed the Kristi Noem thing, though.
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: Yes, it was like the Kristi Noem thing gets so
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: many levels of bullshit deep. It's like, hey, you may
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: get the impression that some of these Republican governors did
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: the wrong thing. don't let them lie to you about
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: how wrong they were. Some of them were right and
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: we should hold them accountable. That's the known position. Like
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: I made sure that my state was leading the country
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: in per capita deaths. Can Ron DeSantis say that?
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: No, he cannot. I kind of think the anti-vax sort
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: of trend now in the Republican Party, now that it's
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: becoming more mainstream in the Republican Party, really does fit
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: with the larger story they're trying to tell, which is
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: You can't trust the radical left and the radical left
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: has now taken over all of our institutions and now
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: they're in power and they're going to constantly make you
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: do shit that you don't want to do. They're going
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: to force things in your life. And if they give
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: you a vaccine, you can't trust that vaccine from the
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: radical left. Just like you can't trust them teaching things
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: in schools and you can't trust them that they're going to,
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: you know, they're going to try to take away your
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: free speech, right? Like it is all of a sort of,
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: all of a piece here. That's the overwhelming theme.
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: The liberals are going to take stuff from you and
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: the far right wing of the Republican party. We are
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: the only ones who can stop them. Guns, freedom of speech,
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: your Facebook feed, COVID restrictions, funding for cops, the border,
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: and then, uh, eventually it got to Trump who was like,
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: and they took the result of the election from you.
• 7:28
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: The, um, there was somebody wandering Washington post found somebody
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: wandering around CPAC, which is, you know, any, really any
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: big political gathering has this sort of person. It, you know, uh, uh,
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: backpack covered in buttons, a lot of red string, a
• 7:43
  Speaker 3: big sign with strings from George Soros to champ Biden,
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: you know, like back and forth lines all over the place. And,
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: That's that is sort of was always taken as this
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: sort of status quo entity. Like there are these fringe
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: figures with conspiracy theories. But now, like you have former
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: national security advisors doing events, taking pictures in front of
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: the same kind of thing. Donald Trump is like a
• 8:04
  Speaker 3: red string guy now standing in front of this whole
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: group of people. And Madison Cawthorn saying that, like, they're
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: going to go door to door to take your Bibles
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: and your guns like this vaccination effort, which they're obviously
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: there is no national door to door campaign. But this
• 8:18
  Speaker 3: is a dry run for some future nefarious act like
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: that is like the that is now at the center
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: of the Republican Party.
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: That's it. But it's also like, you know, everything everything
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: new is old. Right. It's it reminds you. And Brian
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: Boyler wrote about this in his newsletter last week. it
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: reminds you of the death panels and the fury over
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: Obamacare in 2010, right? Which is the government's going to
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: decide whether you live or die. Now it's the government's
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: going to go door to door and make you take
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: this vaccine that we're not sure we know. Do we
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: really know what's in it? Do we really know if
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: it's safe? But Donald Trump deserves credit for it. But
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump deserves credit for it.
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: It's classic grievance politics, Drew, and it's highly racial. And,
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: you know, Trump made it more explicit than ever before
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: when he, you know, was saying horrible things about Mexicans
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: during his announcement speech. But it's basically like, hey, white
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: Republican base, liberals are going to take things from you
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: and give them to other people. Worry about your status.
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: I mean, did you see, Tommy, were there any other
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: non-Trump CPAC highlights that stayed with you from the weekend
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: before we get to the man himself?
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: Um, you know, the, the vaccination thing that, that bummed
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: me out.
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: That bummed me out pretty good.
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: Um, uh, I was not thrilled to see the Oath Keepers,
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: the far right militia. There was another sort of far
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: right group there, Nick Fuentes, those Gripers who are the
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: people to the right of the sort of MAGA people who,
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: it looked like the cast of Superbad sort of storming CPAC,
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: but I do think like, you know, that is usually
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: like the fringe of where these CPAC events are is
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: where we kind of the majority of the Republican Party
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: ends up in a couple of years. So it's scary
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: to see these right-wing militia groups in there. I mean,
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: that stuff is terrifying. You have anything else on it?
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: It's so interesting how many conspiracy theories involve practice runs.
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: Government's always practicing. They're coming for the Bibles, but first
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: they're doing.
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: Jade Helm.
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Jade Helm was a good example. This idea that,
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: all right, there was a pandemic. We created a vaccine
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: in record time under a Republican administration to practice for
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: the Bible-taking. We finally have our opportunity to do our
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: Bible-taking practice.
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: Well, the governments were trying to take people's guns, right,
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: for like 20, 30 years now. They really failed at that.
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: And we've only succeeded a couple times. So, of course,
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: the main event was Donald Trump's speech on Sunday afternoon,
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: which touched on all the latest threats and grievances on
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: the right, like critical race theory and cancel culture. He
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: also played some of the old hits, like windmills are evil.
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: We love windmills are evil. That's an old hit. But
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: the heart of what was a Long, incoherently rambling speech
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: was Trump's continued attack on the legitimacy of the 2020
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: election by spreading lies about voter fraud that never happened.
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: Take a listen. We all won.
• 11:04
  Speaker 4: We all won.
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: We will never give up our search for truth.
• 11:09
  Speaker 7: And justice for what happened in the corrupt presidential election
• 11:13
  Speaker 7: of 2020, because without that truth, we cannot have an
• 11:17
  Speaker 7: honest election in 2022 or 2024, no matter what they want.
• 11:23
  Speaker 4: To tell you.
• 11:27
  Speaker 6: And our country will soon stand proudly for free and
• 11:33
  Speaker 6: strong and proper elections again. The election fraud of 2020
• 11:43
  Speaker 6: is the single most requested topic for me and others
• 11:46
  Speaker 6: to talk about.
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: So there are polls to back up Trump here. But
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: why do you guys think that, as Trump just said,
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: the big lie has become not only Trump's number one issue,
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: but the Republican base's number one issue as well?
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: The most popular person in the Republican Party has been
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: saying it nonstop since they lost and core to core to.
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: I mean, core to CPAC, core to Donald Trump as
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: a political figure, core to what animates the people in
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: that room is this idea that there is no information
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: that can run counter to our worldview. That this is easy,
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: that everything should fit with what we're saying. Everything should
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: feel good. And the election results don't feel good. And
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: he's giving us permission to say that's because they're wrong.
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: That's because they're a lie. Climate change doesn't have to
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: be real. Whatever we need to make us feel good
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: in the moment will work.
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: Be true to us.
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: And so, of course, they faced a crushing defeat of
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: their movement. They see Joe Biden as a popular figure
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: in the country now. Their Democrats control the Senate, the House,
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: and the White House. So what is the only explanation
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: that they could possibly have for that defeat? It has
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: to be fraud. And so they've all embraced it.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: And, you know, I.
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: Think one of the biggest, I think, pieces of conventional
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: wisdom that I think is wrong is this idea that, like,
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: misinformation is happening to the people in that room. Like
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: misinformation is hitting those people and then they absorb it.
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: And then it becomes something that they believe that they
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: are not, that they are for, that they are being
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: kind of, you know, hoodwinked by what Donald Trump and
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: right-wing propaganda is doing. But one thing you see by
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: the way, the audience responds throughout this into some clips
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: we'll play later is they are agents of this. They
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: are choosing this. They are part of this game. They
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: know what Donald Trump is doing and they love it.
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: Tommy, what do you think?
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: So I thought it was interesting to watch the difference
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: between Donald Trump Sr.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: And Donald Trump Jr. speech.
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: So Donnie Jr., my friend in yours, starts with the
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: Wuhan lab. Then he attacked trans athletes, went to gas prices,
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: Biden dementia, something about Russia, took a little tour to
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: bash Michael Avenatti, which, you know, he got a clap
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: out of me.
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: What a set list. You know, fighting the libs.
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: Hitting Avenatti while he's very well down, I would say.
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: I'm just kidding about Avenatti. He's, I don't know, whatever.
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: Then he like ripped on Fauci. And then 10 minutes
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: into the speech, someone chants, Trump won. The whole place
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: goes nuts. They stand up, they applause. It shuts down
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: Donnie Jr. for a minute while he sort of like
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: accepts the applause. And Don Jr. kind of deflected it.
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: He made a joke about how there's an entering that
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: Biden's margin among black voters was higher than Obama's. Isn't
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: that interesting? But then he just went and attacked Hunter
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: Biden for a couple of minutes and then went back
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: to his speech, right? It's like Even Donald Trump's son
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: doesn't really want to talk about the election lies stuff
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: that much. He just knows that everyone knows they have
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: to because Donald Trump senior is, that is the core
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: of his entire speech. All of his grievances have now
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: gotten folded into that rubric, right? Like now he hates
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: the tech companies because they rigged the election against him.
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: It's not just because they censored him or because they're
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: liberals or whatever else. So it's like, it's like Lovey
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: was saying, it's like by force of nature, by force
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: of will, the entire base message is becoming about this
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: big lie thing. It's not going anywhere. It's getting bigger.
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: I also think, you know, this is an extremist movement
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: fueled by grievance. And the ultimate grievance is that the
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: election was taken from them. Right. And you understand why
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: it's Trump's number one issue, because it's about Trump and
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: Trump losing and everything is narcissism and everything's about him.
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: And so that's him. But for the base, it's not
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: just about how they feel about Trump. What he has
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: turned it into and what the Republican media has turned
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: it into is It is about something that was taken
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: from you. It is the ultimate thing that was taken
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: from you. And the left is trying to take a
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: lot from you. We were just talking about that. But
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: the ultimate thing is they're now saying that you don't
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: even have a voice, that the people you want to
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: lead you, that you can't have them because the Democrats
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: are going to steal the election away. And you were
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: right all along.
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: Biden did win. You were right all along during the election.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: Now you're right. You are the majority. And it is also,
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: I think, and we're going to talk about this in
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: a second, but I think it's setting up 2024 as
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: a vengeance campaign. Right. Like we are going to avenge
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: the fact that they stole the last one from us.
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: And that's going to be because everything is about a
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: culture war and it's not really about policies anymore. The
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: ultimate thing is you took our country from us and
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: now we want it back. I mean, that's that's what
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: this is. To go back to the vaccines.
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: I mean, that is that is, I think, what Laura Ingram,
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: Tucker Carlson, that's that's a lot. So much of what
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: they do now is they take issues and translate them
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: into identity.
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: Right. Like that is.
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: Getting vaccinated or being in favor of mass vaccination is
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: now an identity issue. And once an identity issue, these
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: people are lost to persuasion.
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: Once something becomes identity, you can't persuade them to come back.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: And Tucker just looks for all the little areas where
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: he knows the people like us will get mad and
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: call him out and write New York Times stories about him.
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: And he lifts those up and runs with them because.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: That's what he wants. I also want to play one
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: clip that I thought was one of those rare moments
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: where Trump says something very honest and revealing. Let's play
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: the clip.
• 16:47
  Speaker 7: I understand that.
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: I didn't become different. I got impeached twice.
• 16:50
  Speaker 6: I didn't change.
• 16:52
  Speaker 4: I became worse.
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: I became worse. That's a really good joke. Sorry, everybody.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: It's just a good joke.
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: It's just funny to tell a joke from the perspective
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: of the Democrats trying to stop him.
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: Like, you didn't make me better. You made me worse.
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: I think that's great. Good for him. It's also just
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: such a fuck you to the Susan Collinses of the world, right?
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: Who said... Oh, after the first impeachment, he's going to
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: he's going to learn his lesson. Right. And it's I mean,
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: it's a reminder also, I think, of why the only
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: thing that works with Trump is taking away his power.
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: Deterrence doesn't work. Appeasement doesn't work. Ignoring him doesn't work. Right.
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: The only thing that works is beating him. That's the
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: only thing he understands.
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: And it's worth noting, too, that that was a what
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: he was. He was comparing himself to Bill Barr, his
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: attorney general, Bill Barr himself. who was a supplicant to
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: Donald Trump for virtually all the time he was attorney general,
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: believes in basically unlimited presidential power, did a ton to
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: like to to to what's it called in football when
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: you block for somebody you run blocking?
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: Sure. Run blocking, pass blocking? Run blocking for him. What
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: kind of play are we running?
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: It's when somebody's in front of somebody with the ball
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: kind of.
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: So Bill Barr was the fullback in this analogy. And
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: Trump had the ball. Or was it an option? What's
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: it called? You're blocking.
• 18:10
  Speaker 4: He's blocking.
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: You had it. You nailed it the first time. Yeah,
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: the first time. There's something more. Put it in the comments.
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: There's a more specific thing.
• 18:17
  Speaker 5: Anyway.
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: The point is... There's a lesson here. He is, again,
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: he is now saying that Bill Barr....
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: Don't give he's still furious about that Atlantic piece about
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: Bill Barr. McConnell kind of betrayed him on behalf of
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: the Democrats, not because they thought it was not because
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: he was doing what he thought was, you know, a
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: hint of the right thing, but because it was a
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: part of the deeper betrayal by.
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: He did the same thing with Brett Kavanaugh. Right. When
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: he starts mentioning Brett Kavanaugh and he said, oh, well,
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: because Brett Kavanaugh was almost not confirmed because the Democrats
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: went after him. That's why he didn't vote for. to
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: uh you know believe all my and of course he
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: just said that's why he voted with the democrats as
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: if as if everything is like an election in a
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: competition when he really meant that like the supreme court
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: rejected the absurd fucking claims from donald trump and his
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: right crack legal team about voter.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: Fraud he said bill barr got intimidated by an impeachment
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: threat out of doing a whole bunch of things punishing
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: a bunch of enemies including uh i guess arresting He
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: said the women who slandered and defamed Brett Kavanaugh. So, like,
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: the people who came forward to accuse Brett Kavanaugh of
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: sexual assault, Trump suggested in his speech, should have been
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: punished in some way.
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: It was really a dark, dark, fucked up section. And
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: the whole point he was making is dark, which is...
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: Democrats play tough. They don't play nice. And maybe now
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: we need to play. Now we can't, we shouldn't play
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: nice either. Yeah, finally, we should get tough. They tried
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: to burn down the fucking Capitol. I thought that was tough.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: But that's why it's so fucking scary is he's telling
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: them like, no, no, they still play dirtier. We got
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: to match them. That was the point of that part
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: of the speech.
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: And it's just also, he went on, you know, obviously,
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: he thinks Kavanaugh was mistreated during the hearings. And then
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: he makes the point that the reason that the conservative
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: Supreme Court is actually behaving like a democratic court is
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: the threat of court packing because he can't allow even
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: that they have any kind of power. You can't tell
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: this audience like, At least we have the Supreme Court
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: with just rules to protect voting rights on our behalf.
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: There are no victories. He's back to being the challenger
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: and everything's grievance. No wins. Yeah, that's right. That's exactly right.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: There's one more clip that's kind of funny where Trump
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: admits something about polling. I'm going to play that.
• 20:17
  Speaker 7: Now, if it's bad, I say it's fake.
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: If it's good, I.
• 20:25
  Speaker 7: Say that's the most accurate poll perhaps ever.
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: It's... It's great. It's so great.
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: But like the audience is in on the joke and,
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: you know, there's this piece of what it means to
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: be a Trump supporter, which is another way of being
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: a fascist. And it's you have to both buy into
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: it and you have to be so naive as to
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: buy what Trump is saying and so cynical to think, actually,
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: I know he's full of shit, but he's but I'm
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: with him and we're pulling this stunt on everybody else.
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: And that to me is like the most chilling thing
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: overall about CPAC, which is. These are all these people and,
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: you know, whatever power we can keep them from attaining,
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: however unsuccessful they were in overturning the previous election, thankfully,
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: because a few people managed to stand up against this
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: kind of a mob. Like, it is very clear that like,
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: and this always sounds so, fascism has a hold on
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: their hearts. Like, this is a fascist group of people.
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: who would like to attain power by any means necessary.
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: They do not accept reality. They do not accept truth.
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: They do not accept the limits of democratic power. And
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: the only thing preventing them from turning America into a
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: full authoritarian regime is the last bits of our institution standing.
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: In the way all across the country.
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: And it's this mix of how silly and stupid it is,
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: along with how dangerous it is.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: It's a very American brand of fascism. Could either of
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: you detect... Any other messages or themes in Trump's speech
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: that could form the basis for campaign arguments, either in
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: the midterms or the next presidential?
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: I think you can always tell what they want the
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: message to be, which is what's on the teleprompter.
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: And that's defund the police.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: It's demagoguing immigrants and pretending the border has been just
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: opened completely. It's all the grievance stuff we talked about.
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: Take your guns away. Big tech, blah, blah, blah. I mean,
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: I think that's what they want him to say. And
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: then he just goes off script. And complains about an
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: aircraft carrier not having steam propulsion.
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: That's a long story. I think that's an old bit
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: that he goes back to.
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: And then there's like the election fraud stuff.
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: And back to what we were talking about. I love it.
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: Like Adam Serwer has talked about this.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: And I think put it well, which is like liberals
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: hear Trump talk and we think he's being dishonest. And
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: conservatives hear Trump talk and they think he's being authentic.
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: Because he might not be getting it right, but he's
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: saying what he feels. And it's just pure id and
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: rage and grievance at others. And like that's what has
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: drawn them to him since that very beginning in 2015.
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: When he went on that diatribe about the steam on
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: the ship, it just made me think about like the horrible. Obviously,
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: it's all made up or it's mostly made up. But
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: there is some kernel there, which is he went on
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: a tour. And started telling these people about how their
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: ship should work.
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: How to run an aircraft carrier.
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: And they were just indulging him for like that 20
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: minute meeting before the pictures were taken. And now he's
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: turned it into this very intense story about how he
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: tried to put steam power back on an aircraft carrier.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: Something about magnets. Yeah. But look, you're right, Tommy, that
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: what they put on the prompter and what's written in
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: the speech is certainly. What his advisors think the message
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: would be. It's sort of what Republican politicians, probably what
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: Kevin McCarthy and Mitch McConnell. It started immigration and the
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: border was the first topic. That moved into crime now.
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: Is there a new big issue? He also said, you know,
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: how nothing ever happens to Antifa and BLM, Black Lives Matter.
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: It only happens to innocent Republicans like Trump and Rudy Giuliani.
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: Like Ashley Babbitt, the woman who was shot on January 6th.
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: So the new theme is the government uses its power
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: to punish Republicans, but not go after any of the
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: people who are committing homicides at a record rate, right?
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: This is another theme. Then they get into guns. First
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: Amendment and cancel culture is a big one. And then
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: it ultimately... It builds up to the big lie, which
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: you're right. I think some Republicans would rather him not
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: talk about. But to Trump, that's the center of it all. Right.
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: And he says, like, this is even more important than
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: the border than anything else, because that is the that
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: is the big grievance. Yeah, I do think it's on
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: the one hand.
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: Sure, there's some ways in which Trump going on about
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: the big lie is not helpful, but it's also opened
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: the door to all these voter restrictions that they're passing
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: all across the country. So they don't need they don't
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: need to address it. They don't need to embrace it.
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: They just need to have him out there fanning the flames.
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: of this conspiracy so that they can pass the voter
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: suppression law. Yeah, the two things he said. So he
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: did talk about crime. The other quote I think we'll
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: hear again and again is that Joe Biden is turning
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: America into a sanctuary city.
• 24:40
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: America's one big sanctuary city. He'll come back. That is
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: going to be the core of this.
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: He even started previewing. He's like, you haven't been seeing
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: the caravans, but they're coming back.
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Great. Great.
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: So it just means what he's he's programming. He's programming 2020, 2022.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: And I think previewing that his attack on Joe Biden
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: will also be that he is corrupt, that his family's corrupt.
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: He mentioned Hunter. He mentioned the paintings. Right.
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: There was this weird line about how Joe Biden's got
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: a lot of toothbrushes. And he's like, hey, Louie Gohmert,
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: I bet you got one toothbrush.
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: Everyone's like, what the fuck is he talking about? He
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: was so patronizing Louie Gohmert. Because here's Donald Trump, multiple houses,
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: super rich guy. He's like, Louie Gohmert, he's got one house,
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: one toothbrush, one room, one bed.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: The other thing you could tell was sort of a
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: planned messaging strategy was they're peddling this website, takeonbigtech.com, where
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: he suggests that you can join the Trump class action
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: lawsuit against the tech companies. Really just takes you a
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: donation page or tries to harvest your email and your
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: information for his continued grifting pack, whatever, you know, new
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: political infrastructure.
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerbucks, he called him Mark Zuckerbucks. Oh, yeah. I
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: meant to say that new.
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: That was new to me because I'll tell you, my
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: fucking anti-Semitism alarm went off full fucking Blair in my house.
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it went off.
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: And it's hard to, you can't, there's no app for
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: that thing. It was hard to turn it off.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: Given that the crowd chanted four more years multiple times
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: during Trump's speech, it shouldn't have been all that surprising
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: that the former president won the unscientific straw poll of
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: CPAC attendees with 70%. Second place was Ron DeSantis with 21%.
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: Mike Pompeo, Tommy's candidate of choice at 5%. Don Jr.
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: at 4%. Everyone else at 1%. Trump's approval rating among
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: CPAC attendees was 98%. all of which could only reinforce
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: world-renowned narcissist Donald Trump's belief that his people want him
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: to run again, a decision he took a few inches
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: closer to during an interview with Maria Bartiromo before his
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: speech on Sunday. Here's a clip.
• 26:27
  Speaker 8: You ready to get back in that ring and run
• 26:29
  Speaker 8: for president.
• 26:29
  Speaker 6: Again, sir?
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: Well, I do know my answer, but I can't reveal
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: it yet.
• 26:34
  Speaker 7: And because that has to do with.
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: Campaign financing and everything else, you know that.
• 26:38
  Speaker 5: So I can't.
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: Reveal it yet, but I absolutely know my answer. And
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: we're going to do very well.
• 26:43
  Speaker 5: People are going to be very happy.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: What do you guys make of those comments? Is it
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: time to start taking Trump seriously as the likely Republican
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: nominee in 2024?
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: I'll say, first, one other piece of Donald Trump's future
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: that was in his message was that he started going after,
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: he started saying some incoherent things about prosecutors in New
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: York Because I think a little bit of him is
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: still he's he's previewing his message if he is eventually
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: charged with something.
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: Right. So that was part of it.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: So they photocopied the documents and just handed them to
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: the New York prosecutors.
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: What I took away from the straw polls is like
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: these fucking people, the gnomes and Pompeos have been groveling
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: and crawling over broken glass to beg these people to
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: become a constituency like. I know you like Trump, but
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: I'm here too. And I'm really trying to be something
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: that you want me to be. I'll say anything you need.
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: I'll do one interview with NPR in a year and
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: then kick them out. Like whatever you need me to
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: do to be your guy, I'll be your guy. And
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: they don't give a fuck about anybody except Trump and
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: Ron DeSantis.
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: That's it. That's it.
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: 70% is not that good. That kind of surprises me
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: for the most MAGA base.
• 27:46
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: Although I think once he, I mean, I'm not saying
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: he's going to lose. It's just like, that's a pretty...
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: Although the 98% approval rating. Yeah, they all like him.
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: They don't want him to run again. That's that's notable.
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: Also, Maria Bartiromo. I mean, she's lost the thread so
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: long ago. She referred to Ashley Babbitt, again, the woman
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: who climbed through a window and was shot at the
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: Capitol on January 6th. It's a wonderful woman who went
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: to a peaceful protest. Trump then asserts that the head
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: of security for a Democrat shot her and he called
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: for his people, I believe he said, to be released,
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: the people in custody. It was very it was, again,
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: a very fascist, dark.
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: Dark exchange. The insurrection was good. It is the new
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: branding from Donald Trump. It wasn't, it wasn't a big deal.
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: That was the first thing. Oh, it wasn't that big
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: of a deal. Now it's, it was good. And it
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: should be like, I, we all.
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: I think expected the revisionist history and on the election
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: lies and the fraud and all these audits going on
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: or helping that case. But to, to watch the images
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: of what we saw on January 6th and then come
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: away saying wonderful people at a peaceful protest is just
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: shows that facts don't matter.
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: It's all just what team you're on. But I do,
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: I think these other Republican candidates are, or potential candidates,
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: I don't see the path. I don't even see the
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: path for Ron DeSantis. I think you get 70% in
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: a poll like that that is fucking crushing among a
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: big field like that. I think he clearly loves the adulation.
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: Everything he said in that speech, every utterance sounded like
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: a man... who just cannot stop himself from running again.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: He fucking loves it. He needs it. It's going to happen.
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: And then I don't see how he gets beaten. Even
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: if he's indicted, like you said, Lovett, he's got a
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: story for being indicted and charged. Everyone's like, oh, well,
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: then his business is, he might be broke because of
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: his business. He doesn't care if he's fucking broke. He'll
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: run broke too. It doesn't matter. Politics makes money.
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: Donald Trump has been Adam Sandler and Uncut Gems for
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: fucking years now. He is snorting Adderall. keeping his debtors
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: at bay and breaking the law and barely escaping. but
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: he has escaped every single time. Why on earth wouldn't
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: he run again? It's the best thing he could possibly
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: do even if he is indicted. And regardless, first of all,
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: I'm interested to see just like Ron DeSantis having these
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: kind of poking his head up out of the trench,
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: getting a little bit higher in these polls, plus sitting
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: around a table with Joe Biden and not trying to
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: personally throttle him has created a moment. I'm interested to
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: see what Donald Trump does, because if Donald Trump does
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: not care if Ron DeSantis lives or fucking dies, and
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: if he's worried about someone else going to challenge him,
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: he's got to try to figure out a way to
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: make Ron DeSantis' life pretty miserable. But regardless, like, okay,
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: let's say Trump in some fluke doesn't run for whatever reason.
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: What did we just watch?
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: We watched CPAC and this whole propaganda machine, which is
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: a machine for turning politicians into little Trumps. Donald Trump
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: will be the nominee, whether it's his name or not.
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: That is done.
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: There's no ideological debate in the Republican Party. There is
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: no conservative rearguard action against.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: What these people have built. Like, this is it. It
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: is his party.
• 30:45
  Speaker 4: It is his world.
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: I would still argue that he's still more dangerous than
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: all of them.
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: I mean, he's just, he's proven to be a pretty
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: good demagogue.
• 30:51
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 30:52
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: For sure.
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: I don't disagree with that. What would taking him seriously
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: as a nominee look like? Do you think the idea
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: that he is getting closer to running should affect the
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: White House's strategy, the Democratic strategy, our midterm strategy? Do
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: we elevate him? Do we not talk about him? What
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: do you guys think about that? I don't know quite yet.
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think the Biden folks will continue to
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: Try to run on accomplishments and try to get this
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: bipartisan deal done.
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: And it was interesting.
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: One of the only sort of strategic things he did
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: in the speech was Trump came out hard against the
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: bipartisan infrastructure deal. It was one of the few sort
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: of political positions he took that seemed designed to harm Biden.
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: The other thing he did that I really that I
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: took notice of was he criticized Biden. for getting out
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: of Afghanistan, but leaving equipment there. But then was like,
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: but no, it's time we should be out of there, right?
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: He like kind of took away from the Republican Party
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: any criticism of the withdrawal, although.
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: I guess they'll just reframe it.
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it was right. He was saying it's
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: similar to the vaccine. Like, you know, I deserve credit
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: for the vaccine, but don't get it. It's like, I
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: believe I deserve credit for ending the war, ending the wars,
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: but the way they're doing it is terrible.
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: In some sort of, you know, amorphous sort of improv
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: kind of way. The Biden White House strategy, and this
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: is their political strategy all along, has been to rebuild
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: trust in government by proving that government can deliver and
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: change your lives for the better. I think that is essential.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: I think they have to do that for sure. I
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: don't think it's sufficient, though. And that's where I think
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: that the Trump thing comes in. Like, I think the
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: Democrats have to have answers for the critical race theory,
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: fear mongering, the cancel culture, fear mongering, the immigration stuff,
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: the crime stuff, all the shit that Trump said that
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: that doesn't just put Democrats on the defensive. That's not
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: just a response, but puts Republicans on the defensive on
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: some of these issues as well and starts telling a
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: story about it, because I don't think we will be
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: able to just ignore all that and say, OK, they're
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: going to do culture war stuff. People don't care about that.
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: People care about checks and pockets and shots in arms.
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: That's all people care about, because in an age where
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: we have a very powerful propaganda machine on the right
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: and a very powerful propaganda machine through social media. Like,
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: I don't think that we can just put our head
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: in the sand and think, okay, we're going to focus
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: on improving people's lives. And that's enough. Cause I don't
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: think it's enough.
• 33:10
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: It's, um, and I do think one lesson, like you're right. Donald,
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: Donald Trump jr. Didn't need to say the lie. Cause
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: the lie is already fully embraced by the people.
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: And he said it before.
• 33:21
  Speaker 5: Of course.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: No, of course.
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: But you know, Republicans saw something that no one had
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: ever heard of, critical race theory. And they didn't say,
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: that's not what they're interested in hearing about. I'm going
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: to talk about healthcare. That's not what they want. I'm
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: going to talk about pocketbook issues. They said, let's make
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: something from nothing. Let's say something so often and so
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: conspiratorially that it becomes an issue. And then the work
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: is done for us. Now we have a new thing
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: we can talk about and everybody understands what we mean.
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: And I think Democrats, we are, I think George W. Bush,
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: this is, this is, this is all old stuff.
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: George W.
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: Bush got a lot of heat for, because someone in
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: administration said like, we're in the reality creating business. We're
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: in the reality distorting business. And it was obviously correctly,
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: I think they were criticized for having said that, but
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: there was some kernel of truth in there, which is
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: when you are at the national, when you are, have
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: a platform at the national level, you can distort what
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: people think. You can change what people think and you
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: can create issues from nothing. And Democrats don't do that.
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: We do not We do not take things that are
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: 3 percent and 4 percent and said, let's make 70
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: percent of the country care.
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: Or the other thing we do is, you know, they
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: step pedal all these lies about critical race theory. And
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: our reaction is, well, these are all lies. And here's
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: the truth about what's going on in schools. But Andrew Lawrence,
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: who works for Media Matters, said, you know, one thing
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: Democrats could say is Republicans want to put cameras in
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: the classrooms to watch your children all day. Right. Because
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: some of them have said that they want to do
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: that to make sure that teachers aren't teaching critical race
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: theory and like put them on. I think this is
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: not a bad idea. Like put them on the fucking
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: defensive and talk about all the crazy shit that they
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: want to do, as opposed to just being like they're lying.
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: Here's the truth.
• 34:53
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: I mean, you're sort of seeing, you know, Jen Psaki
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: trying to do a bit of this messaging to say
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: that actually, you know, if you voted against the COVID
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: relief bill, you voted to defund the police because there
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: was a bunch of funding for police. And it's like,
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: you know, I don't know if that will be effective,
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: but it's interesting that it really pissed off. a bunch
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: of the speakers at CPAC. And it led them to
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: repeat our charge for once and not us repeat theirs. But,
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: you know, the debate on Twitter today was whether Biden's
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: speeches are boring and, you know, whether that matters. It's like,
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: what swing voter is watching an entire presidential speech?
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: Zero. There was a bunch of fucking anti-vax nonsense at CPAC.
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: Every Republican... you know, from Mitch McConnell to Kevin McCarthy,
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: all of them should be asked today. Why don't you
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: fucking speak out against the anti-vax conspiracy bullshit in your
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: own like divide their party on this? Right. Put them
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: on the defensive over this.
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: I know it's something it is. I think it's both
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: like it's a it's a constitutional issue. Like Democrats just
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: aren't built to do these kinds of relentless campaigns to
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: keep at it week after week after week. And it's
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: it's a systemic problem because we don't have a Fox
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: News campaign. that will drive this message for the Democratic Party,
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: even when their politicians aren't talking about it. There's no
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: one to carry that baton.
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the truth is that Fox News creates the message. Yes.
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: And they carry it, right?
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: I mean, the critical race theory guy, I think, emerged
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: on Tucker Carlson or on Fox somewhere and then was
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: brought to the White House to consult.
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's this symbiotic relationship between Trump and the right
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: wing media, which is he both reflects and shapes the
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: message on Fox, right? So like his speeches are interesting
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: to listen to in that and that, you know, This
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: is what's happening on Fox and this is what's going
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: to happen on Fox.
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: I mean, you look at a colonel like Donald Trump
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: calling Mark Zuckerberg Zuckerbucks. Imagine if a Democrat had done that.
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: You'd have a week of stories about it. It would
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: become an issue.
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: It would grab hold. And we just don't have that infrastructure.
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: I mean, imagine if like it is so inconceivable that
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: four days from now, Kevin McCarthy is being asked, like,
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: do you believe there's an anti-Semitism problem within the Republican
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: Party after Donald Trump said Zuckerbucks? And here are these
• 36:45
  Speaker 3: five other examples. Inconceivable will not happen.
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: Not the way our politics works. OK, when we come back,
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: Congresswoman Katie Porter is here to talk with Tommy and
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: Lovett about President Biden's new executive order that targets big
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: business and big tech.
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: On Friday afternoon, President Biden signed an expansive executive order
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: targeting anti-competitive and monopolistic practices in agriculture, airlines, health care,
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: broadband and banking. Here to talk about this executive order
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: and the larger fight against monopolies and corporate consolidation, she
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: is a representative from California's 45th district. She puts the
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: trust in antitrust. That doesn't work.
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: Congresswoman Katie Porter, thank you so much for being here.
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: Welcome back.
• 37:29
  Speaker 4: I'm excited to be here with you both.
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: Whiteboard enthusiast. Thank you so much.
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: So when President Biden announced this plan, he said capitalism
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: without competition isn't capitalism, it's exploitation. We're 40 years into
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: the experiment of letting giant corporations accumulate more and more power.
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: And what have we gotten from it? Less growth, weakened investment,
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: fewer small businesses. I expect that would get an amen
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: from you.
• 37:50
  Speaker 9: So President Biden said- is about making.
• 38:03
  Speaker 8: Sure that the conditions for healthy, stable capitalism are met. Now,
• 38:07
  Speaker 8: I do want to just pick one tiny, tiny, tiny
• 38:10
  Speaker 8: little bit of disagreement with the president. And I would
• 38:12
  Speaker 8: say it's not just the last four years this has.
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: Been a problem.
• 38:15
  Speaker 8: It's probably the last 14 years. In other words, I
• 38:18
  Speaker 8: think it got a lot worse under the Trump administration,
• 38:20
  Speaker 8: like what didn't get worse.
• 38:22
  Speaker 4: Under the Trump administration.
• 38:24
  Speaker 8: But some of this has roots in decisions that Reagan
• 38:28
  Speaker 8: and others made. And so, you know, I think If anything,
• 38:31
  Speaker 8: I would say that people should understand this is a
• 38:34
  Speaker 8: now-standing two-generation problem in our economy that needs to be addressed.
• 38:40
  Speaker 8: And when there's less competition, what happens? Income inequality, racial inequality,
• 38:46
  Speaker 8: wealth inequality, they all wipe. And that inequality, Jerome Powell,
• 38:52
  Speaker 8: don't take it from me, take it from the chairman
• 38:54
  Speaker 8: of the Fed, that is our.
• 38:56
  Speaker 4: Number one threat to our economy. Yeah.
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: I mean, Biden was pointing back to Robert Bork, and
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: I think you could probably say that there were decisions
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: made during the Obama administration where we were not tough
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: enough on mergers and acquisitions and antitrust issues.
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: So point well taken.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: So, you know, Biden said this plan could help us
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: get cheaper prescription drugs, a refund for that $ 30 airplane
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: Wi-Fi that never actually logged in for you. For me,
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: the one that jumped out at me was maybe, you know,
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: those of us who pay a ton of money for
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: god-awful cable and internet, you might be able to get
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: some of your money back from Spectrum Wireless.
• 39:26
  Speaker 4: Let me call that all Americans.
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: All Americans.
• 39:29
  Speaker 8: Find me the American who feels like they're getting a
• 39:32
  Speaker 8: great value from their internet company because I.
• 39:34
  Speaker 4: Want to sign up with their provider.
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: Me too.
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: So again, like that's a huge, broad set of issues.
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: Can you help us understand like how does this executive
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: order actually work? How would it tackle all those things?
• 39:43
  Speaker 8: Yeah, so the executive order contains 72 different initiatives within it.
• 39:48
  Speaker 4: That's a lot.
• 39:49
  Speaker 8: So I'm going to focus on a couple of the
• 39:50
  Speaker 8: keystone kind of major fundamental principles within those 72 initiatives.
• 39:56
  Speaker 4: And there are two I want to start with.
• 39:58
  Speaker 8: One is robust public enforcement of antitrust laws. And that
• 40:04
  Speaker 8: means not only the DOJ and the Federal Trade Commission,
• 40:08
  Speaker 8: the FTC, doing their job but also recognizing that given
• 40:13
  Speaker 8: the pervasiveness of monopoly power across our economy, that we
• 40:18
  Speaker 8: need agencies, including the FDA, the USDA, the FCC, this
• 40:25
  Speaker 8: is an across government, across agency initiative to pay attention
• 40:30
  Speaker 8: to the concentration of economic power, to monopoly effects, and
• 40:35
  Speaker 8: that public enforcement is really important.
• 40:37
  Speaker 4: Now, the second part to that, though, is strengthening private enforcement.
• 40:41
  Speaker 8: And this is where, for example, competitors who may say
• 40:45
  Speaker 8: that a larger company, a monopoly power, engaged in actions
• 40:49
  Speaker 8: that squeezed them out, that prevented competition.
• 40:52
  Speaker 4: And you have to have both.
• 40:54
  Speaker 8: It's built into our antitrust laws, that system of both
• 40:57
  Speaker 8: public and private enforcement.
• 40:59
  Speaker 4: So those are really, really important components.
• 41:02
  Speaker 8: The other thing that the executive order does is it
• 41:05
  Speaker 8: directs the government to sort of change its frame on
• 41:10
  Speaker 8: antitrust and to make kind of put their hat on
• 41:15
  Speaker 8: with taking a hard look at what is going to
• 41:19
  Speaker 8: reduce competition about this or that action, whether it's a merger,
• 41:24
  Speaker 8: whether it's a pricing change, whatever it is, approval of
• 41:28
  Speaker 8: a drug. Ask the question, will this reduce competition? Doesn't
• 41:33
  Speaker 8: mean the deal shouldn't go forward. Doesn't mean that the
• 41:35
  Speaker 8: merger should not be approved. But you've got to put
• 41:37
  Speaker 8: that perspective on. You also have to be looking back.
• 41:42
  Speaker 8: And this is the other big part. The DOJ has
• 41:45
  Speaker 8: long had the power, the FTC has had the power
• 41:49
  Speaker 8: to unwind deals that create competition. monopoly power and create
• 41:54
  Speaker 8: and interfere with fair competition. So when companies apply for
• 41:59
  Speaker 8: pre-merger approval, pre-clearance to merge, they make assertions. They say,
• 42:05
  Speaker 8: it's okay, we'll still compete. This won't cause any harm
• 42:08
  Speaker 8: in the marketplace. If that turns out not to be
• 42:11
  Speaker 8: true after the fact, which has often been the case
• 42:15
  Speaker 8: in recent history, then the government has the existing authority
• 42:20
  Speaker 8: to go back and unwind that merger. And so the
• 42:23
  Speaker 8: executive order directs government to look hard at these past deals,
• 42:28
  Speaker 8: not just to set a new path forward, but also
• 42:30
  Speaker 8: to unwind some.
• 42:31
  Speaker 4: Of the mistakes of the past.
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: So this merger point is really interesting to me.
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: So the executive order was also released with all this
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: background on how there are all these merger-induced price increases
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: over time. And that shows a clear harm to the consumer,
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: I think. But a lot of what we're talking about
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: when it comes to big tech companies are acquiring competitors.
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: And in some of those cases, like Facebook, for example,
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: the product itself is free. So how does the government
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: demonstrate that those mergers cause harm for consumers and then
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: make the case to walk it back?
• 43:03
  Speaker 4: Excellent question.
• 43:03
  Speaker 8: So two points I want to make here. One, monopolies
• 43:07
  Speaker 8: are not necessarily, all big businesses are not monopolies.
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 43:14
  Speaker 8: Virtually all monopolies are big in the sense that they
• 43:17
  Speaker 8: control a.
• 43:18
  Speaker 4: Lot of the market.
• 43:19
  Speaker 8: But there are plenty of big businesses out there that
• 43:21
  Speaker 8: are not monopolies. So that's important for people to understand.
• 43:24
  Speaker 8: This is not an attack on big. It's an attack
• 43:27
  Speaker 8: on a certain kind of big business that's engaging in
• 43:31
  Speaker 8: behavior that lessens competition and hurts our economy.
• 43:34
  Speaker 4: So that's one thing to understand.
• 43:35
  Speaker 8: With regard to big tech, your question about, well, Facebook
• 43:38
  Speaker 8: is free to me, right? How can there be a
• 43:41
  Speaker 8: competition problem? Well, the point is, it's not just about
• 43:45
  Speaker 8: the consumer. It's also about the competitors. Facebook's competitors are
• 43:49
  Speaker 8: not us as customers. Facebook's competitors are other companies who
• 43:53
  Speaker 8: are trying to develop competing platforms for speech to sell
• 43:56
  Speaker 8: digital advertising on. And the way that some of the
• 44:00
  Speaker 8: actions of Google or Facebook or some of these companies
• 44:03
  Speaker 8: have lessened the abilities.
• 44:05
  Speaker 4: Of new startup companies to enter the marketplace.
• 44:08
  Speaker 8: And what that does is ultimately, even in the case
• 44:11
  Speaker 8: of a free product, Tommy, it lessens your choice. So
• 44:16
  Speaker 8: even if it's free, if I have fewer choices in
• 44:18
  Speaker 8: the marketplace, even for a free product, that's damaging our
• 44:22
  Speaker 8: overall economy because we're not developing the best products.
• 44:25
  Speaker 4: That we can.
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: So a lot of this EO is aimed at these
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: specific consumer harms, right? We talked about a few, but
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: there's others, the right to repair, there are these anti-competitive
• 44:36
  Speaker 3: practices that affect workers, like licensing requirements, actually something conservatives,
• 44:40
  Speaker 3: this appeals to conservatives too. But you talked about addressing
• 44:44
  Speaker 3: the underlying conditions from which these abuses come. And it
• 44:48
  Speaker 3: seems like there's pieces of the EO that are aimed
• 44:50
  Speaker 3: at stopping these mergers or making it more difficult or
• 44:54
  Speaker 3: bringing more scrutiny onto these mergers. The Biden administration has
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: put Tim Wu, and Lina Khan into positions to oversee
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: a lot of this. People take that as a really
• 45:04
  Speaker 3: good sign. What does it look like to you for
• 45:07
  Speaker 3: the administration to actually begin addressing some of these underlying
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: conditions that led to so much consolidation in the first place?
• 45:15
  Speaker 8: So I think what it's going to mean is why
• 45:16
  Speaker 8: I mentioned all agencies.
• 45:18
  Speaker 4: This is not just the fault or the responsibility of
• 45:21
  Speaker 4: the DOJ or of the FTC.
• 45:23
  Speaker 8: All agencies need to be watching for anti-competitive practices. And
• 45:28
  Speaker 8: by the way, an antitrust violation doesn't mean that you
• 45:31
  Speaker 8: eliminate the competition. It means that you substantially lessen the competition.
• 45:37
  Speaker 8: That's the relevant legal standard here.
• 45:39
  Speaker 4: And so I think it means that we have our
• 45:41
  Speaker 4: antennas up.
• 45:42
  Speaker 8: About whether this might be occurring across government agencies, we
• 45:46
  Speaker 8: do need to actually beef up the antitrust enforcement work.
• 45:50
  Speaker 8: Since 2000, we've done about 18%, we spent about 18%
• 45:54
  Speaker 8: less on antitrust enforcement today than we did in 2000,
• 45:59
  Speaker 8: even though the competition.
• 46:00
  Speaker 4: Has gone up.
• 46:01
  Speaker 8: So I think for different, one of the biggest things
• 46:03
  Speaker 8: that I think this executive order is gonna do is,
• 46:06
  Speaker 8: Get the attention of every single cabinet secretary, every deputy secretary,
• 46:11
  Speaker 8: every principal first.
• 46:12
  Speaker 4: Deputy, everybody.
• 46:14
  Speaker 8: They're going to have to start thinking about is competition
• 46:18
  Speaker 8: a problem in the marketplaces or the areas that we work,
• 46:22
  Speaker 8: where we are trying to accomplish policy.
• 46:24
  Speaker 4: And this is something Congress has to think about.
• 46:26
  Speaker 8: For example, as part of President Biden's Build Back Better plan,
• 46:29
  Speaker 8: and bipartisan infrastructure, we're talking about expanding broadband.
• 46:34
  Speaker 4: Terrific. But we need to look at.
• 46:36
  Speaker 8: The lack of competition and the lack of consumer choice
• 46:40
  Speaker 8: in the broadband market. So I think that's a perfect
• 46:42
  Speaker 8: example of Congress as we go to pass a bill
• 46:45
  Speaker 8: that expands broadband. We need to be recognizing broadband is
• 46:49
  Speaker 8: a marketplace where there's a problem with market power and
• 46:52
  Speaker 8: consolidation and lack of consumer choice and lack of competition.
• 46:56
  Speaker 8: And how we write that and how we exactly do
• 47:00
  Speaker 8: the work of expanding broadband should reflect that concern.
• 47:04
  Speaker 3: So one aspect of this is you're saying, does this
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: help or reduce competition as the centerpiece of how we
• 47:12
  Speaker 3: think about antitrust, about monopoly? We've spent now decades watching
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: conservatives build up this other idea, which is, can you
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: point to harm, specific harm against consumers? Do you worry
• 47:23
  Speaker 3: at all about what will happen when this EO kind
• 47:26
  Speaker 3: of goes into the buzzsaw of right-wing courts? And what
• 47:30
  Speaker 3: do you think Congress needs to do to kind of
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: prevent that outcome?
• 47:35
  Speaker 8: Yeah, so I think first off, the first thing we
• 47:37
  Speaker 8: need to do is see agencies take action.
• 47:39
  Speaker 4: That's step one.
• 47:41
  Speaker 8: And if the agencies are doing a good job, I
• 47:44
  Speaker 8: think reaching out, explaining what is and is not okay,
• 47:47
  Speaker 8: giving examples, issuing regulatory guidance about what they're going to
• 47:51
  Speaker 8: be looking for, that will help hopefully let the business
• 47:55
  Speaker 8: community know what they need to do to stay on
• 47:57
  Speaker 8: the right side of the antitrust laws.
• 47:59
  Speaker 4: If there are.
• 48:00
  Speaker 8: Enforcement cases brought, you're correct. We have a very conservative
• 48:04
  Speaker 8: judiciary right now, and it's possible that they will not
• 48:07
  Speaker 8: give full effect to the Sherman antitrust law, the Clayton
• 48:10
  Speaker 8: antitrust law.
• 48:12
  Speaker 4: And so if that's what happens, if we get those.
• 48:14
  Speaker 8: Interpretations that are under enforcing and contrary to Congress's intent
• 48:19
  Speaker 8: in passing those laws almost 100 years ago, then Congress
• 48:23
  Speaker 8: needs to be ready to go back to the drawing boards,
• 48:25
  Speaker 8: and pass additional antitrust regulation. And that's some of what
• 48:29
  Speaker 8: the judiciary committee has already been.
• 48:30
  Speaker 4: Working on doing.
• 48:31
  Speaker 3: So it does feel like antitrust is having a moment.
• 48:35
  Speaker 3: It's antitrust moment in the sun. You have, there's Senator
• 48:38
  Speaker 3: Amy Klobuchar has a book, Josh Hawley, noted monster. He
• 48:41
  Speaker 3: also sees an opportunity for himself. You have these bipartisan
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: bills you mentioned through the antitrust subcommittee. You've been focusing
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: on this for a long time. Senator Warren's been focusing
• 48:49
  Speaker 3: on this for a long time. What does it look
• 48:51
  Speaker 3: like to you to see antitrust and promoting competition, reducing
• 48:54
  Speaker 3: corporate power, where it should be at the center of
• 48:57
  Speaker 3: our politics. How do you make that happen? And what
• 48:59
  Speaker 3: do you think that needs to look like?
• 49:00
  Speaker 8: I'm thrilled it's happening because when I went to run
• 49:04
  Speaker 8: in 2017, this was one of the things I said
• 49:06
  Speaker 8: I wanted to run on.
• 49:07
  Speaker 4: I said, I want to run on consumer protection.
• 49:10
  Speaker 8: I want to run on the fact that big business
• 49:12
  Speaker 8: is flaunting basic laws that make sure our capitalist economy
• 49:17
  Speaker 8: stays strong. And you guys both know you going to
• 49:20
  Speaker 8: call you both democratic operatives.
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: I think that's fair.
• 49:22
  Speaker 3: Thank you.
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: There's this kind of bucket list.
• 49:24
  Speaker 8: Of stuff that you're supposed to run on. It's like,
• 49:27
  Speaker 8: do you want to run on the environment? Do you
• 49:29
  Speaker 8: want to run on LGBTQ rights?
• 49:30
  Speaker 4: Do you want to run on? So when I was like,
• 49:32
  Speaker 4: I want to run on antitrust, everyone was like, what?
• 49:37
  Speaker 4: What's that? Is that something we do as Democrats? Hell yes.
• 49:40
  Speaker 8: It's something we need to be doing, period, as policymakers
• 49:43
  Speaker 8: across party lines, because we just can't make good economic
• 49:47
  Speaker 8: policy in Congress, including tax law, including issues relating to infrastructure,
• 49:55
  Speaker 8: issues relating to transportation. We just can't make good laws
• 49:58
  Speaker 8: in Congress if the bones of our capitalist economy are
• 50:03
  Speaker 8: atrophied and are weak. And that's what's happened with our
• 50:05
  Speaker 8: antitrust system.
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: What do you say to critics who argue that Biden's
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: efforts to increase airline competition are misplaced and that we
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: should instead focus more on getting blue checkmarked Twitter users
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: to tweet their complaints during travel delays?
• 50:19
  Speaker 5: Oh, my God.
• 50:20
  Speaker 8: So the whole premise of like a loss for words,
• 50:23
  Speaker 8: you're talking.
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: Thank you for taking this serious.
• 50:25
  Speaker 8: Look, no amount of antitrust enforcement is going to eliminate
• 50:30
  Speaker 8: nor is it designed to eliminate consumers individually.
• 50:34
  Speaker 4: Lifting up their voices to call out wrongdoing. That continues
• 50:38
  Speaker 4: to happen. It's going to happen.
• 50:40
  Speaker 8: There are plenty of things that airlines are going to
• 50:42
  Speaker 8: do to screw you or me that are not going
• 50:44
  Speaker 8: to be antitrust violations.
• 50:46
  Speaker 3: I don't think that's fair to say. I think that's
• 50:48
  Speaker 3: really uncalled for. Some of my best friends are airlines.
• 50:53
  Speaker 8: Yes, people should continue to raise their voices if they
• 50:56
  Speaker 8: have bad experiences, if they're cheated. They need to keep,
• 50:59
  Speaker 8: whether it's through Twitter or calling the airline competition or
• 51:02
  Speaker 8: reporting it to their AG or the Federal Trade Commission,
• 51:05
  Speaker 8: that's what it means to have to compete for consumers.
• 51:10
  Speaker 8: But no amount of consumer competition or consumer complaining, I
• 51:16
  Speaker 8: should say, no amount of consumer complaining can address an
• 51:19
  Speaker 8: antitrust violation. Because part inherent in the term antitrust violation
• 51:24
  Speaker 8: is that there's not enough competition for the consumers to
• 51:29
  Speaker 8: shop with their pocketbooks.
• 51:31
  Speaker 4: That means to go find a company that treats them better.
• 51:34
  Speaker 8: Most people who rent or own houses have one choice
• 51:39
  Speaker 8: of an internet provider. So your choice is get ripped
• 51:43
  Speaker 8: off or don't have Wi-Fi or broadband.
• 51:46
  Speaker 4: So you can complain all you want, tag Cox and Comcast.
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: And all of the other wrongs. Spectrum, mostly Spectrum, yeah.
• 51:54
  Speaker 4: Spectrum, whoever you want to pick out.
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: No, I hate them, yeah.
• 51:56
  Speaker 4: None of them are good.
• 51:57
  Speaker 8: You You're not able to make that consumer choice to
• 52:03
  Speaker 8: pick a different company. That's one of the things that
• 52:05
  Speaker 8: this executive order will do is make clear that they
• 52:09
  Speaker 8: can't lock landlords into only allowing one internet service provider
• 52:14
  Speaker 8: to service buildings. And that's going to create choices for consumers.
• 52:17
  Speaker 4: Consumers may well choose the big companies. That's fine. They
• 52:20
  Speaker 4: may well choose big companies and then complain about them.
• 52:23
  Speaker 4: Count on it.
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: That's my plan. That's what I'm going to do.
• 52:27
  Speaker 4: But that's the nature of the competition we're talking about.
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: You are the only person who could turn that dumb
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: trolling question from me into a smart, thoughtful point.
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: And that's why you are our favorite guest. Final question.
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: You say that to everybody.
• 52:39
  Speaker 3: No, we really don't. Some of them are super fucking boring.
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: There was this unfortunate, violent incident at your town hall
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: over the weekend. I just wanted to ask, you know,
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: so what happened?
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: Is everybody doing okay?
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: And, you know, is there concern about this sort of
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: stuff going forward? Because it is, It's frightening to see
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: the normalization of political violence, whether it was January 6th
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: at the Capitol, whether it was people acting out at events.
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: It's a trend that seems to be on the rise.
• 53:07
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, it's very, very troubling.
• 53:08
  Speaker 8: And for a couple of reasons, regardless of what your
• 53:12
  Speaker 8: viewpoint was when you came to that event, your ability
• 53:17
  Speaker 8: to get information, to hear what's going on in government
• 53:21
  Speaker 8: and to get your questions asked and answered was reduced
• 53:25
  Speaker 8: by the violence that occurred there. So it wasn't just
• 53:29
  Speaker 8: that it was disruptive for me, it was disruptive for
• 53:32
  Speaker 8: everybody that was involved.
• 53:33
  Speaker 4: I mean, Irvine, this happened in Irvine.
• 53:37
  Speaker 8: Now let's review, largest safe, like safest large city in
• 53:41
  Speaker 8: the United States, something like 18 years running. Police presence
• 53:48
  Speaker 8: was there, right? measures were in place to make sure
• 53:52
  Speaker 8: that the crowd was controlled. I said at the very beginning,
• 53:56
  Speaker 8: everyone is welcome to be here. We're here to talk
• 53:59
  Speaker 8: with each other and listen and learn. Everyone is welcome, right? So,
• 54:04
  Speaker 8: I mean, I'm at a loss as to what more
• 54:08
  Speaker 8: we can do to make sure that these events are
• 54:11
  Speaker 8: safe for every single person who attends. And it was,
• 54:15
  Speaker 8: you know, particularly for me, I mean, there were people
• 54:17
  Speaker 8: in the crowd people with disabilities, people with mobility devices,
• 54:21
  Speaker 8: very young children who were not able to get up
• 54:25
  Speaker 8: and move away from the violence.
• 54:27
  Speaker 4: And so, you know, I.
• 54:28
  Speaker 8: Would just say to people, if you're really serious about
• 54:32
  Speaker 8: having a debate about what's right and what's wrong, you'll
• 54:36
  Speaker 8: condemn this kind of violence. And the fact that some
• 54:39
  Speaker 8: people on the right are not condemning it tells you
• 54:43
  Speaker 8: that they don't want to have a discussion They want to,
• 54:47
  Speaker 8: as the organizer of this counter event said, confront, right?
• 54:53
  Speaker 8: And that is not a civil dialogue, right? Confronting someone
• 54:58
  Speaker 8: is an aggressive act. It's not an act of mutual respect.
• 55:00
  Speaker 8: It's inconsistent with democracy.
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it is.
• 55:05
  Speaker 3: When you're out there doing these town halls, you're practicing
• 55:07
  Speaker 3: democracy and you're open to hearing from everybody and let
• 55:09
  Speaker 3: everybody be part of that conversation. But some people in
• 55:12
  Speaker 3: our politics don't want to do that anymore.
• 55:14
  Speaker 4: No, I'll just.
• 55:15
  Speaker 8: Tell you like, Having been a professor, you know, I'm
• 55:17
  Speaker 8: very cognizant of the problem of wanting to call on
• 55:20
  Speaker 8: the smart kid. So like you call on the Tommy theater,
• 55:22
  Speaker 8: you don't call on the John Favreau because you know
• 55:24
  Speaker 8: one's prepared and one's not.
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: So that's a real phenomenon.
• 55:27
  Speaker 8: So to avoid any actions like this that might be
• 55:31
  Speaker 8: perceived or actual in terms of who gets to talk,
• 55:34
  Speaker 8: whose question gets asked, who gets information, we invite every
• 55:39
  Speaker 8: attendee to put a question into this huge bingo ball
• 55:43
  Speaker 8: spinner that we have. And we have a member of
• 55:46
  Speaker 8: our youth advisory board spin that and questions are drawn
• 55:48
  Speaker 8: at random. So I have done everything I can to
• 55:52
  Speaker 8: make sure that every possible attendee from every walk of
• 55:56
  Speaker 8: life and every political perspective has the opportunity to participate
• 56:00
  Speaker 8: in a civil way. And so having done that, to
• 56:03
  Speaker 8: then have people make that impossible, to create an unsafe environment,
• 56:07
  Speaker 8: to engage in violence, It's deeply, deeply discouraging, and it
• 56:11
  Speaker 8: presents very real challenges for our democracy.
• 56:13
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: Well, we're so sorry that happened.
• 56:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 56:17
  Speaker 3: Terrible situation, but thank you so much for being out there,
• 56:21
  Speaker 3: having those town halls, and for joining us.
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: Katie Porter, Congressman Katie Porter, thank you so much.
• 56:26
  Speaker 4: Thank you.
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: Thank you. Welcome back. It isn't always easy to keep
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: up with news about the pandemic. Every day is a
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: constant flood of new developments, scary headlines and seemingly contradictory
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: studies that leave us with all kinds of questions like
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: how worried should we be about the Delta variant? Will
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: we need booster shots? How do we make sure everyone
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: else gets their first shot? And when can kids under
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: 12 get theirs? Here to help us answer some of
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: these questions, the United States Surgeon General, Dr. Vivek Murthy.
• 57:00
  Speaker 4: Dr.
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: Murthy, welcome to the pod.
• 57:02
  Speaker 4: Well, thanks so much. I'm so glad to be with you.
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: So I know that Pfizer will be holding a briefing
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: with you and other public health officials to make their
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: case as to why they're seeking FDA authorization for a
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: booster shot for COVID-19. Dr. Fauci was on the Sunday
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: shows yesterday saying he doesn't believe a booster is required
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: at this time. Meanwhile, countries like the UK and Israel
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: have already announced plans to offer boosters to certain populations
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: in the fall. Can you talk about why there's a
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: difference of opinion here?
• 57:31
  Speaker 5: Well, it's a great question, John. And the decision on
• 57:33
  Speaker 5: boosters really has to come from a broad look at
• 57:37
  Speaker 5: the data. And the data has to effectively tell us
• 57:39
  Speaker 5: that immunity is waning among vaccinated people and waning to
• 57:43
  Speaker 5: a significant degree that you're seeing breakthrough infections. And that's
• 57:47
  Speaker 5: a point at which you would consider a booster. Now,
• 57:49
  Speaker 5: I want to make a distinction here. There are certain
• 57:51
  Speaker 5: populations that take immunocompromised individuals where there have been questions
• 57:56
  Speaker 5: about whether they should receive a third dose just as
• 57:58
  Speaker 5: part of the routine series. So most people will get two.
• 58:01
  Speaker 5: if you're getting an mRNA vaccine or one if you're
• 58:03
  Speaker 5: getting Johnson & Johnson vaccine. But there've been questions of
• 58:06
  Speaker 5: should they get a third shot if they're on the
• 58:07
  Speaker 5: two dose regimen to give them an extra boost in
• 58:11
  Speaker 5: terms of antibody production. That may very well happen. Israel
• 58:14
  Speaker 5: has decided to go that pathway and others may follow,
• 58:17
  Speaker 5: but that is separate from this question of does everybody,
• 58:20
  Speaker 5: does the general population require boosters? And so what we
• 58:23
  Speaker 5: really need to do is look at the data from
• 58:25
  Speaker 5: here in the United States, other countries in the world,
• 58:28
  Speaker 5: and see if, in fact, immunity is waning, breakthrough infections
• 58:31
  Speaker 5: are increasing. And if that's the case, then boosters would
• 58:34
  Speaker 5: be recommended. But at the end of the day, the
• 58:35
  Speaker 5: FDA and the CDC will make the decision on boosters.
• 58:38
  Speaker 5: Pharmaceutical companies may opine on this. They may apply for
• 58:42
  Speaker 5: authorization for booster shots, but they don't make the recommendation yet.
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: So if you're someone who was vaccinated back in December
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: or January, say maybe you're over 65 or you have
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: an underlying condition, while you guys are looking at the data,
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: Can you still be confident that your protection against the
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: Delta variant hasn't waned at all?
• 59:04
  Speaker 5: What we still see is at the six month mark,
• 59:06
  Speaker 5: we've certainly seen that protection remains pretty strong. and particularly
• 59:10
  Speaker 5: protection against death and severe disease, including hospitalization. And case
• 59:16
  Speaker 5: in point, if you look at the deaths that are
• 59:18
  Speaker 5: taking place in the United States right now, more than
• 59:21
  Speaker 5: 99% of them are taking place among individuals who are unvaccinated.
• 59:26
  Speaker 5: So that means, again, the vaccinated individuals still at this
• 59:29
  Speaker 5: point in July have a high degree of protection. That
• 59:32
  Speaker 5: doesn't mean that that's going to last forever. But that's
• 59:35
  Speaker 5: why we're really closely following cohorts of people in the
• 59:38
  Speaker 5: United States and talking to our counterparts around the world
• 59:41
  Speaker 5: to see if and when that immunity does wane. And
• 59:44
  Speaker 5: if it does, we will be prepared to give those boosters.
• 59:47
  Speaker 5: We've already been working on ensuring that a supply will
• 59:49
  Speaker 5: be there.
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I had a question about timing. If you all
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: decide that boosters are needed, will Americans who need them
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: be able to get them in the fall like the
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: British and the Israelis? Or are we going to sort
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: of be behind the eight ball on this?
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 5: We're planning for a variety of circumstances. And so the
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 5: supply should be there. And, you know, and the good
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 5: news is that we've got good supply right now. And
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 5: we have been in dialogue with the companies, the manufacturers,
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 5: to ensure that if and when we need those boosters,
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 5: we will have them in adequate supply.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: Here is a self-interested question that I'm going to ask anyway,
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: because I've been also hearing it from a lot of
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: other people. I got the Johnson & Johnson vaccine. There
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: have been some experts who said it may not be
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: as protective against Delta as the mRNA vaccines. I also
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: live with an unvaccinated one-year-old. Do you think I need
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: a booster?
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 4: So this is a.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 5: Really important question. And we've been getting this question a
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 5: lot from folks who've gotten the Johnson & Johnson vaccine.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 5: So here's what I would say. If you look at
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 5: the data actually from Israel, from the U.K., What we
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 5: see is that with the Pfizer vaccine, there's still a
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 5: high degree of protection, right, particularly in hospitalizations and deaths. Now,
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 5: we don't have the same equivalent data, real-world data, if
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 5: you will, for the J & J vaccine with Delta.
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 5: Part of the reason is that far fewer people in
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 5: the United States have received the J & J vaccine.
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 5: The vast majority have received the other two. So it
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 5: takes a little bit longer to actually see a signal there.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 5: But there is reason to be hopeful that the protection
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 5: is quite strong. Number one, J & J has actually
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 5: been very effective against all the other variants we've seen
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 5: to date, particularly with hospitalizations and deaths. The second reason
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 5: is that laboratory studies that have been done now from
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 5: multiple sources with people who have been immunized with J
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 5: & J and we then take their antibodies and look
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 5: at how effective it is in neutralizing the Delta variant
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 5: in the laboratory.
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 4: In these multiple.
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 5: Instances in the lab, they have found the J &
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 5: J sort of induced antibodies to be quite effective in
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 5: neutralizing the Delta variant. And the third reason to be
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 5: hopeful is that there is a cousin, if you will,
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 5: of the J & J vaccine, that's the AstraZeneca vaccine
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 5: made on a similar platform that has in real world
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 5: data in the UK shown to be very effective at
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 5: reducing hospitalizations due to Delta. So all of these point
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 5: in the right direction. It doesn't mean we're not going
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 5: to continue to look at the data and make sure
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 5: that this carries out in the real world among those
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 5: who are vaccinated with J & J, but give good
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 5: reason to be hopeful. And at this point, that's why
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 5: there's no official recommendation being made for a J &
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 5: J booster.
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: So I should wait for the data then, basically.
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 5: Should wait for the data, absolutely. And there are some
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 5: people who may decide they want to talk to their
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 5: doctor and they want to go ahead with the booster.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 5: People may make individual decisions in those circumstances. If they
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 5: feel they're at higher risk in terms of their own
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 5: immune system or people they're living with, then we understand that.
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 5: But the official recommendation will be made you know, based
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 5: on the broader data. But we're feeling hopeful that protection
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 5: will continue to be strong against Delta.
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: You mentioned that, you know, all the vaccines offer very
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: strong protection against severe illness and hospitalization, even against the
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: Delta variant. What do we know so far about breakthrough
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: infections among fully vaccinated people? If you have a mild
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: or asymptomatic breakthrough infection, how likely are you to pass
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: it on to someone else? Can you still suffer some
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: of the conditions associated with long COVID?
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 5: It's such an important question. And it points to the
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 5: fact that while these vaccines are highly effective, and I mean,
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 5: in the case of the mRNA vaccines, we're talking about
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 5: greater than 90% effectiveness of preventing symptomatic infection. They are
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 5: not 100% effective. So there will be some breakthrough infections.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 5: And we've seen that not just in the United States,
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 5: but in other countries, they tend to be rare. And
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 5: a couple of things we found about breakthrough infections. One
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 5: is in addition to being infrequent, they also tend to
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 5: be milder than people who are unvaccinated. And we even
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 5: find actually that when we try to check the viral load,
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 5: the amount of virus in someone's system, it also seems
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 5: to be much lower. So all of that is good
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 5: because it means that not only is the infection milder
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 5: if you do have breakthroughs, but your likelihood of passing
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 5: it on to someone else is also lower. Now, we
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 5: don't have enough data yet to be able to put
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 5: specific numbers around the transmission risk. But to transmit it
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 5: to someone else, if you were infected, you both need
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 5: to get sick yourself, which again, the risk is low,
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 5: and then have enough virus in your system to transmit
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 5: it to someone else. And again, there too, we're finding
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 5: even if you get sick, the viral load is low.
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 5: So all of those are reasons to be optimistic that
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 5: you're in good shape. But here's what I would say,
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 5: and I say this as a fellow dad like you,
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 5: who's got young kids at home who are not old
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 5: enough to be vaccinated yet. Some people in those circumstances,
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 5: living at home with someone who's unvaccinated or immunocompromised, or
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 5: if they themselves are living in an area where there's
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 5: a high degree of a virus circulating because the vaccination
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 5: rates are low, they may make certain decisions like they
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 5: wanna keep wearing masks to protect themselves. And even if
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 5: there's a low risk of transmission, maybe they wanna be
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 5: extra cautious. And if some people wanna make those decisions,
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 5: it's absolutely fine to do so. But what you should
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 5: know is that your protection from the vaccine is high.
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 5: To give you a sense, as a doctor prescribed many
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 5: vaccines over the years, This is really on the high
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 5: end of the spectrum, the kind of protection you're getting
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 5: from the COVID-19 vaccine. So that's something to be grateful for.
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: So obviously the only way to truly crush the pandemic
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: is to get a lot more people vaccinated, both here
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: in the U.S. and around the world. Here in the
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: United States, what have you found to be some of
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: the most effective strategies for persuading people to get their
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: shot who may have initially been more hesitant?
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 5: That's such a good question. That is the question of
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 5: the moment because We've gotten now to the really hard
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 5: part of the vaccination effort where the vast majority of
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 5: the unvaccinated, I'd say about two thirds of the unvaccinated
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 5: are now pretty inclined against vaccination. There are about a
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 5: third of those who are unvaccinated who are in the
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 5: wait and see category. So a couple of things, I'll
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 5: tell you what doesn't work. What doesn't work is going
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 5: to folks who are concerned about being vaccinated and trying
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 5: to bowl them over with your knowledge about data and
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 5: trials and such. What also doesn't work is ridiculing people
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 5: for their concerns about being vaccinated. What is effective, I believe,
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 5: is number one, pausing to listen to folks, understand where
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 5: their concerns are coming from. And everyone is not the
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 5: same here. Some people may have been exposed to misinformation online.
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 5: Others may have had bad experiences with the healthcare system
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 5: that may have led them to distrust things like vaccines.
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 5: So first, listening is critical. The second is to share
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 5: your own experiences. How did you decide to get the vaccine?
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 5: What was it like when you actually got it? But
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 5: the third thing, John, is just to realize that trust
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 5: is really the currency that matters here. It doesn't matter
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 5: how much I know about the vaccines and the data
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 5: or how much experience I have as a doctor. If
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 5: somebody out there doesn't trust me, then it's really not
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 5: going to move the needle in terms of how they're
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 5: thinking or help them make a decision. So that's where
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 5: engaging with folks who are trusted messengers matters. Matters about
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 5: 80% of people don't understand that they want to talk
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 5: to their doctor about making a decision about getting vaccinated
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 5: or not. That's one of the reasons we've been working
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 5: very closely with doctors and nurses and other health professionals
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 5: to make sure they've got the tools that they need
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 5: to have conversations with folks. But about 50% of people
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 5: say they want to talk to a family member or
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 5: a friend, again, someone they trust to make that decision.
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 5: And it's why finally, I just say to folks, you
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 5: don't have to have a medical degree or public degree,
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 5: public health degree. to be helpful on this vaccination effort
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 5: to help protect our country and your community against COVID-19.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 5: What you need is just to recognize that by virtue
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 5: of having trusted relationships with people, you have great power
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 5: and you can use that power to help people get
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 5: accurate information so they can make decisions about how to
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 5: protect themselves and by extension, their families.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 4: Dr.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: Fauci said on Sunday that there should be more mandates
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: at the local level for businesses and schools to require
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: COVID-19 vaccinations. Do you agree with that?
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 5: Well, I certainly think that you're going to see more
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 5: mandates and requirements at the local level. The hospitals routinely
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 5: require their workers to actually have the flu vaccine. It's
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 5: very common. I'm assuming that many will also make a
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 5: similar decision around the COVID-19 vaccine. We know that more
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 5: than 100 universities, in fact, nearly 200 now, are talking
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 5: about having requirements for vaccination for their students. Some workplaces
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 5: are contemplating it as well. And if the FDA does,
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 5: in fact, and their review of the data from Pfizer
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 5: and Moderna end up issuing a full approval for the vaccines.
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 5: And you will see even more local institutions stepping up
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 5: to say, you know what, we're gonna require this. So
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 5: I think it's going to happen. And I think it's, look,
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 5: it's not an unreasonable thing for institutions to make that requirement,
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 5: particularly hospitals where, look, if you're working in a hospital
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 5: as a nurse or as a doctor, as a therapist,
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 5: you've got a responsibility to protect the patients that are
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 5: coming into you for care. Some of them may have
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 5: been vaccinated, but may not have built up the protection
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 5: because not everyone responds to vaccines. Some may have not
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 5: gotten vaccinated for various reasons. And you've got to make
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 5: sure you're protected with the vaccines that you don't expose
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 5: to them. So we're going to see more of this.
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 5: What you're not going to see, though, is you're not
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 5: going to see the federal government coming in and working.
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 5: vaccines for the population at large.
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: Can I ask what the thinking is there? Because it
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 1: feels like if vaccine requirements are the right thing to
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 1: do for whether it's a hospital system, like you said,
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: or schools and Also, you know, we have a long
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: history in this country of requiring vaccinations for all kinds
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: of things. And that's been part of our history. Why
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: have you and the Biden administration decided that you sort
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 1: of want to stay away from any kind of federal
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 1: either vaccine mandate or even the sort of suggestion from
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: President Biden and the federal government that, yes, there should
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: be requirements for vaccines?
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 4: Well, it's a good question.
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 5: And I would say that this is actually in keeping
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 5: historically with what we've done as a country, like the
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 5: requirements that you see around vaccination for schools, for example,
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 5: among students. This is something that happens at the local
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 5: level where local school districts are in fact making decisions
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 5: about requiring these vaccines. And so that very well may
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 5: happen this time around as well at the local level.
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 5: But again, these are locally driven decisions. The federal government
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 5: has historically not come in and mandated vaccinations at the
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 5: school level or in workplaces. The one place where the
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 5: federal government has, you know, sometimes had mandates is actually
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 5: for members of the military, you know, where, you know,
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 5: you know, are often required, in fact, to take the vaccines,
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 5: you know, and so will that happen again? Well, we'll see,
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 5: you know, the Department of Defense is considering a number
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 5: of options here, but the Department of Defense has also
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 5: done a fairly good job in getting almost 70% of
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 5: its active duty members vaccinated at this point, which is
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 5: pretty good. And they're not getting up. They're planning to
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 5: continue that effort. So this is why I think that
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 5: you're going to see that same historical pattern here with
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 5: the government playing a supporting role here on the federal side,
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 5: but likely with local government and with institutions making decisions
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 5: about requirements. And I think that will only grow with time.
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 1: CDC last week urged all schools to fully reopen in
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: the fall. What can you tell parents or teachers or
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 1: kids who might be nervous about this, especially since there
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 1: aren't vaccinations approved yet for kids under 12?
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 5: Number one, look, I'd say again, as a fellow parent,
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 5: if you're looking at the fall at the prospect of
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 5: your unvaccinated kids going to school and you're feeling a
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 5: little nervous, there's nothing wrong with you. You know, a
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 5: lot of us, you know, are going through this transition
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 5: and trying to figure out how to make sure our
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 5: kids are OK. The CDC and its new guidance actually
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 5: gave us some additional tools to ensure that our kids
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 5: will be safe. And they did that, in fact, by
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 5: offering a series of layers of protection that they are
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 5: suggesting schools implement, which will all collectively help reduce the
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 5: risk that our kids will get sick, even if they're unvaccinated.
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 5: Those layers include testing, masking, distancing when possible, improving ventilation,
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 5: making sure kids stay home if they get sick. All
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 5: of these collectively can make a real difference. And the
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 5: good news is that today, we've seen when precautions are
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 5: taken that the the amount of transmission that happens in
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 5: schools is actually quite low. And so that's been reassuring.
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 5: But with all that said, we've got to remain vigilant.
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 5: And that's why as a parent, as soon as the
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 5: vaccine becomes available for my children, as soon as it
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 5: goes through the FDA review process and is given an
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 5: authorization or approval, then I'll make sure my kids get it.
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 5: And until then, we're closely engaged with our school, my
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 5: wife and I with our kids' schools, to make sure
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 5: we understand what precautions are being taken to make sure
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 5: that these layers of protection that the CDC provides released
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 5: last week and recommended that they're being followed and implemented
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 5: as well.
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 1: And what's your best guess on a timeline for vaccines
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 1: being approved by the FDA for kids under 12?
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 5: I think it's possible that we may see a vaccine
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 5: available before the end of this calendar year. We know
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 5: that the trials are already underway with children under 12.
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 5: That's good news. They've been underway for months. And sadly,
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 5: when there is more infection in the community, the trials
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 5: proceed more quickly because In the presence of more infection,
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 5: you get a better sense of whether the vaccines are
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 5: working or not. And so we've had, unfortunately, still ongoing
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 5: infection brewing. You know, we kind of came down to
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 5: almost 10,000 cases a day, which was a low for
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 5: the United States. But we have now increased to most
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 5: recently over 26,000 cases a day. So I think we
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 5: will get the data relatively soon. And I'm optimistic that
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 5: by the end of the year, we'll have a decision soon.
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 5: from the FDA about whether our kids under 12 can
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 5: take the vaccine or not.
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 6: Dr.
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 1: Murthy, thank you so much for joining Pod Save America.
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 1: Really appreciate the time and hope you come back soon.
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 5: Well, thank you so much. It was really good to
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 5: be with you. And one last thing I'll just share
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 5: and something that's on my mind a lot is, I mean,
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 5: I don't think we talk about nearly as much with
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 5: this pandemic is really the cost to our mental health
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 5: and our wellbeing. This has been an incredibly difficult year
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 5: and almost a year and a half now for everyone.
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 4: In the country.
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 5: It doesn't matter if you are rich or poor, if
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 5: you're living in an urban or rural area, if you
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 5: end up getting COVID or not. This pandemic has affected
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 5: all of our lives in a profound way and turned
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 5: it upside down. Certainly hit some much, much harder than others,
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 5: but hit all of us in some way. And what
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 5: I worry about as I look to the future is
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 5: about how we're going to contend with that impact on
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 5: our health and mental health and our wellbeing. We know
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 5: that rates of depression and anxiety increased significantly during the pandemic,
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 5: including among young people who were struggling with high rates
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 5: of anxiety and depression and suicide before the pandemic began.
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 5: So I think we have this opportunity, John, as we
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 5: think about coming out of this pandemic, we have an
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 5: opportunity to think proactively about two things. One, how do
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 5: we really address mental health in this country, talk about
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 5: it really honestly, provide the investment in prevention that we
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 5: know works, but haven't actually made that investment? How do
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 5: we provide real treatment, accessible, high quality treatment to people
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 5: who've been struggling for too long? The second thing we've
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 5: got to do is we've got to have the conversation
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 5: about what we want our post pandemic lives to really
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 5: look like. If we don't do anything differently, but just
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 5: keep moving forward, we will snap back to 2019, how
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 5: we lived our life before the pandemic. But if you're
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 5: like me, and like many out there, you've probably had
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 5: moments where you thought during this pandemic, huh, this may
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 5: be this pandemic about how I want to live my
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 5: life a bit differently. Maybe something that you've realized about
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 5: spending more time with your family, or maybe it's something
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 5: you've realized about maybe wanting to move to be closer
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 5: to friends and to those you love, or maybe you
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 5: realize that you need more purpose or meaning, like in
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 5: your job, or that you want to go back to
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 5: school for that degree that you've been thinking about or
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 5: pursue a hobby, whatever.
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 4: It may be.
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 5: There are realizations we've all had during this pandemic that
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 5: we can incorporate into our thinking about what our post-pandemic
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 5: life looks like. But if we don't have those conversations,
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 5: we don't explore what life could look like post-pandemic, then
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 5: I worry that we will lose a lot of the
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 5: potential silver linings of this pandemic, the lessons, if you will,
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 5: from the pandemic. So that's a conversation I'm excited to
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 5: certainly think about in my own life, but also excited
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 5: to support in our country. It's something that our office
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 5: will be working on. how to support a larger series
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 5: of conversations around the post-pandemic life. And if we approach it,
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 5: I think, in an open, healthy, honest way, my hope
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 5: is that we can build a life that is more fulfilling,
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 5: that's healthier, and certainly happier for many of us than
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 5: the life we even had before the pandemic began.
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 1: I agree. That's such an incredibly important conversation to have
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 1: about mental health and well-being. And I do think like,
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 1: I often think that one small step we can all
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 1: take is to sort of give each other a break,
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 1: extend some, some kindness and grace to everyone else. Cause
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 1: I've been thinking this throughout the pandemic is everyone is
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 1: always going through something that you may not know. Right.
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 1: And they, and however you've dealt with the pandemic, um,
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 1: you can't know for sure what someone else has gone
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 1: through over the last year. And so it's a, uh,
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 1: it's a good opportunity to, to show some kindness, uh,
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 1: and it, that doesn't fix everything, but it's a, it's
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 1: one small step at the beginning.
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 5: And it goes a long way and you put it
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 5: so beautifully. Um, Kindness is powerful. It's one of the
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 5: most powerful sources of healing that we have. And I
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 5: say that as a doctor who's written prescriptions for many
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 5: medicines that intended.
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 4: To heal over the years.
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 5: But I've been struck time and time again that kindness
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 5: and compassion, they really go a long way. And if
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 5: we learned one thing from this pandemic, John, it's that
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 5: we need each other. As much as we may be
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 5: able to do on our own, we can't get through
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 5: difficult times like pandemics or other hardships solely on our own.
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 5: And in fact, when we step up to help one another,
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 5: we not only extend assistance and lift someone else up
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 5: but we remind ourselves that we have value to bring
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 5: to the world now there are a lot of people
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 5: walking around who who feel you know like their value
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 5: and their worth is is not significant who wonder at
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 5: times if they're really bringing anything to the world around
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 5: them i've certainly felt like that you know at times
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 5: throughout my life but that is why service to others
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 5: you know fueled by kindness and compassion is sometimes one
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 5: of the most powerful things we can do for others
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 5: but also one of the most reaffirming things we can
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 5: do And when I imagine the post-pandemic life, when I
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 5: imagine the post-pandemic society that we could build together, I
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 5: imagine a society fueled by kindness, informed by compassion, and
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 5: one in which all of us, not just some of us,
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 5: will thrive.
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 1: That is very well said. Thank you, Dr. Murthy. Appreciate it.
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 4: Of course.
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 1: Take care. Good to see you. Thanks to Congresswoman Katie
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 1: Porter and Surgeon General Vivek Murthy for joining us today.
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 1: Good to be with you guys again right here in
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 1: the studio. Look at us. Lovely to be here. Look
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 1: at us synced up. Look at us all synced up.
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 1: We'll talk to you again on Thursday.
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 4: Bye.
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 1: Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. The executive
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 1: producer is Michael Martinez. Our senior producer is Flavia Casas.
• 1:18:52
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• 1:18:56
  Speaker 1: mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin is our
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 1: sound engineer. Thanks to Tanya Somenator, Katie Long, Roman Papadimitriou,
• 1:19:03
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• 1:19:06
  Speaker 1: our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Phoebe Bradford, Milo Kim, Yale Freed,
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• 1:19:13
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