Latest / Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast, Helping you create a profitable, sustainable law firm you love / Episode 298 Leading "Against the Ordinary" with Isabelle Fortin

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Episode 298 Leading "Against the Ordinary" with Isabelle Fortin · Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast, Helping you create a profitable, sustainable law firm you love

• 0:06
  Intro: Welcome to the Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast. What if you could hang out with successful women lawyers, ask them about growing their firms, managing resources like time, team, and systems, mastering money issues, and more. Then take an insight or two to help you build a wealth generating law firm. Each week, your host, Devina Frederick, takes an in-depth look at how to think like a CEO, attract clients who you love to serve and will pay you on time, and create a profitable, sustainable firm you love. Devina is founder and CEO of Wealthy Woman Lawyer, and her goal is to give you the information you need to scale your law firm business from 6 to 7 figures in gross annual revenue so you can fully fund and still have time to enjoy the lifestyle of your dreams.
• 0:52
  Now here's Davina.
• 0:55
  Davina: Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the Wealthy Woman Lawyer podcast. My guest today is Isabel Fortin. Drawing on her unique experience in the Royal Canadian Air Force and the business world, Isabel transforms how organizations approach leadership. As an international speaker and consultant, she helps leaders optimize their teams by leveraging the power of individuality. An expert in the art of uncovering each person's unique talents, Isabelle teaches leaders how to extract and leverage those personal strengths for the benefit of the team because great teams are built one person at a time.
• 1:31
  Her approach is personalized and adapted to each client's individual needs, encouraging encouraging them to go against the ordinary. Please join me in welcoming Isabel Fortin to the Wealthy Woman Lawyer podcast. Hi, Isabel. It's so good to see you. How are you today?
• 1:48
  Isabelle: I'm fantastic. So great to be here, Davina. Thank you for the invitation.
• 1:52
  Davina: Good. Good. So tell us I've I have, introduced you, but I'd love to hear from you how your background and what led you to this sort of field of expertise.
• 2:06
  Isabelle: Well, the biggest clash right out of high school, I joined, the air force, and it was the family business. That's just what we did in the family. So both my parents have had served. And when I joined in 1989, and now I'm showing my age, my brother was an Air Force pilot at the time. So I didn't really question.
• 2:28
  It didn't really dawn on me that there was other opportunities out there. I just went, okay. This is what you do. So I joined the Air Force where I served for a decade. And the biggest clash of my life, professional life, I should say, is when I got out of the military and I get my first job and the first boss I ever had, and I go, oh, okay.
• 2:52
  So she's back. This this is and only lasted for five months because, you know, I I took what I thought I could get. It never dawned on me that what I had done in the military could maybe, you know, transfer to civilian life. So I took the first job I could find and I didn't question. And then when I got to my second job, which I stayed there for three years, I went, oh, okay.
• 3:21
  So this is this is more of the same lack of leadership and, you know, like, real leadership skills to speak of. And and by the third job by the third job, I went, oh, okay. So this is how corporate world works. And it took me a while because I was facing other pressing matter in my personal life, things that I needed to heal from. And but after about a decade of working in what I call corporate America, it just dawned me that the biggest thing with the corporate world is the lack of leadership training.
• 4:05
  So I'm like, the first boss and the second boss that I had, I was kinda looking at them, judging them. But when I got to the first the the third one, I went, no. Okay. So it's not their fault. They just they aren't provided the tools to be good leaders.
• 4:22
  And unfortunately, although this was twenty five years ago, unfortunately, it still applies to this day. I think that in The US, I read this somewhere, and I'm not going to quote it because I can't remember quite accurately enough. But it was a study, and it's like only 6% of of managers and leaders in corporations actually got leadership training, and that's incredibly low. And the bigger the the the company, the more likely they will train their leaders like, you know, Meta or or Google or because they understand the impact that the leaders have.
• 5:07
  Davina: Mhmm.
• 5:08
  Isabelle: So that's where I come from. And in the military, that was one of the things that made me clash with the corporate world was in the military, if you're up to a promotion, for up for a promotion, and you're going to be in a leadership position, well, you are not eligible for that promotion unless you have leadership courses, unless you get trained as a leader. Because the skills of, let's say, sales, well, what it takes to be the best salesperson in a company, that's one set of skills. But leading that team of sales, it's another kind of skills. Right?
• 5:54
  So we train it for one, but we don't train for the other one. So why is that?
• 5:59
  Intro: Is that?
• 6:01
  Isabelle: Well, that's an I I unfortunately don't have the real answer to that. My observation is that people think that if they're a good salesperson or let's say since we're talking two lawyers, so you're a good lawyer, you're good at either drafting contracts or you're a good litigator, well, then you're gonna be good at leading that team. But it's it's completely different. It's another set of skills. And I think that slowly but surely, people are becoming aware or companies and or and CEOs and managers are becoming aware that leadership is a whole another ballgame.
• 6:50
  It's not the same thing, but it's a slow process, and they're not doing it quickly. Right. The other thing I am I'm sad to report is that, well, most really, really, really great leaders are the ones that keep on being a student of leadership, and those who aren't good at it don't know enough to know they're not good at it. Oh, yes. I could see that.
• 7:21
  Yeah. It's a double negative. They don't know what they don't know.
• 7:25
  Davina: So our audience is made up of women law firm owners. One of the challenges that I see, and this is why I've introduced some leadership training in some of my programs, is because when we're scaling the business, we start out hiring staff usually. And then some people stay at that and they never hire lawyers. And they feel like an okay boss to their staff until there's some you know, personality clashes and things, then they often have problems. But then they're hesitant to hire lawyers.
• 7:56
  When they finally start hiring lawyers, then they really start having a lot of I call it kind of this lack of confidence and maybe maybe blaming the employees for not performing the way they perform. They only have themselves to compare to. Right? Or maybe if they've worked someplace else, old bosses or something. But I think one of the issues is that a lot of people don't even look at themselves first and say, Well, wait a minute.
• 8:26
  Am I being a good boss? Am I being a good leader? Do I have management skills? Do I know the difference between leaders and managers? So could you talk to me about some of the issues that you have encountered when you're working with your clients that you see people do before they realize they need to develop leadership skills?
• 8:51
  Isabelle: The biggest and most common mistake I encounter is exactly that, is not I I either it is the lack of willingness to look at their own thing, at the way that they lead and the way that they're communicating. And, well, and, you know, how come they don't understand what I just said? Well, because you're not speaking their language. And it's not because somebody is a lawyer and talking about the law. That means that the other lawyer is understanding exactly what how that person is is what that person is communicating.
• 9:32
  So the lack of of willingness or the lack of self awareness is one of the biggest thing. And the other one that's the most common is expecting everyone to just basically guess. Well, you know, this is this is what I did when I, you know, came out of high of law school. So, like, why aren't they just doing that? Well, because we don't world as it is.
• 9:59
  We see the world as we are. Yeah. We're completely biases. All of us. We're all biased.
• 10:04
  Right? We all have cognitive biases, and we tend to think that the way that we see the world is the way the world is, but it's not. So you we need as leaders and you're so right, Debina, is that there's a huge difference between management and leadership, and we confuse the two. It's like, oh, I'm not managing my people. Okay.
• 10:30
  So maybe you're a manager. But I'm thinking that in most kind of corporations that I've worked with, which is pretty industry agnostic. Right? Because human I'm dealing with humans, so it doesn't it doesn't matter what kind of industry they're in, is it doesn't look sexy to say that you're the manager. It looks much better if you say you're you led that team.
• 10:57
  Right? So we started calling them leaders. But leadership is about taking care of people. It's not about getting things done. Right.
• 11:07
  That's the biggest that's the biggest misconception I find.
• 11:11
  Davina: Yeah. I I kind of distinguish it by saying leaders inspire. They inspire people to follow their vision. They have a vision, and they are inspiring people and galvanizing people around that vision. Managers are really focused on the day to day execution of that vision.
• 11:30
  And and so when you own a law firm or a small business of any kind, you are probably both at at some point. You're growing it. You're managing. You're leading. You're doing both.
• 11:42
  And understanding the distinction really helps so you know which role that you need to be in at any given time. Right? You you talk about your what people what kind of happens before they become leaders. Once they sort of recognize I need to lead or I need to manage whatever it is that they're thinking, what are some of the mistakes that you see, first time leaders making in a business type of environment?
• 12:17
  Isabelle: They don't listen enough. I think it's regardless of how high up they get in the organization, it's it's a lack of of being willing to actually listen. Ask your direct reports. Let me I don't know if you have 10 or 20 or five. Ask them meet them on their if not in your office, in their office.
• 12:42
  Or if they don't have an office, go for coffee with them. Ask them how they are. And then shush. Shut up. Just listen.
• 12:54
  And at the beginning, try to make it not about work. Care about the individual. And if you're someone that, you know, you maybe you have a lot of the reports and that you need to write notes, write notes afterwards. Okay. So and so's mother is sick, and so and so is concerned about this, and so and so is having a spat with a neighbor, and she's concerned about, you know, because it used to be a great place to live, and now, like, her everyday life is messed up with by by this neighbor and so on and so forth.
• 13:27
  And let them talk about themselves and not work. And after after they're done about their day and telling you who they are and what they care about, what they do as a hobby, and what what tickles their fancy, what they wanted to be when they grew up, then they're going to be much more open about the tools that they need at work because they feel like you're valuing them, like they have value and they know they have value because you're investing time. And time is some things we only have a limited amount of. So that's the best way to care and truly care about someone. So
• 14:12
  Davina: go ahead. I'm just going play devil's advocate here because there are three things that sort of come to mind when you're saying this. One is law offices are very fast, busy places. They are you're you're making money by the billable hour. You have to be highly, skilled to work and function and work well in a law firm environment.
• 14:38
  I'm when I go back to men and women and the dynamic, also, I mentioned that I'm a Gen Xer. So I came up in corporate America at the time when women came into patriarchal environments and adapted. And so I never had a boss who pulled me aside and said, Devina, how are you feeling today? What is going on in your life? There was none of that.
• 15:02
  There was an expectation that I come in and do my job, I got paid to do the job. So that in contrast. And then also, I really can't imagine that in the military that you had people pulling you aside asking you if you were okay. So I hear all of these women lawyers who were already sort of likely to do that. They're likely to say, how are you?
• 15:25
  Are you okay? And then they feel bad. Well, she's called in sick four times, but her mother is sick, and this is a problem. That's a problem. Instead of saying, well, you know, at some point, we're grown ups.
• 15:35
  We gotta come here, we gotta work. So how does that square with what you were just talking about?
• 15:42
  Isabelle: I love everything you just said because you're right on all counts. First of all
• 15:48
  Davina: You're right. I just need to be I need to understand
• 15:50
  Isabelle: what you're saying. I I hear that. I understand. Okay. So I'm gonna adjust the military issue first because that's easy for me.
• 15:59
  You're right. In the military, I had very few bosses take me aside and ask me how my damn day was going. But where if there's a place where command and control actually works, it is in the military. However and there's a huge however, is in the military, the mission comes first. So what does that mean in the practicality of things?
• 16:22
  It's regardless of how long you've been doing a job, if the recruit, the newbie in the squadron that shows up is better doing that job on mission. They're getting that job because the mission comes first. So what does that do? It makes it so every single individual know exactly what they are contributing to the team that no one else does quite like they do. The military is shameless about tapping into the unique abilities of each and every individual.
• 17:03
  And that's how the individuals feel feel like they are seen, heard, and valued because they know what it is, that special something that they contribute to the team. Mhmm. So that's that part of the answer. The other part of the answer is you're absolutely right. You and I are about the same age.
• 17:23
  I'm yeah. Nobody asked me how I was doing my first my first civilian job either. But you know what? The new generations, they are the future. And whether we like it or not, we have to adapt to that because they are the one that in twenty years when we retire, they're gonna do the the job.
• 17:44
  Is it gonna work? Is it not gonna work? Did is it better? Is it worse? Some things are extremely better and some things are extremely worse.
• 17:53
  And, you know, the pendulum is gonna swing one way or another. However, one of the things that I find about the the generations after us is that they come to the office with the expectation of of a sense of belonging. You want to belong. They need to know what it is about them that makes them special. Is it egocentric?
• 18:23
  Maybe. I don't know. I don't have that I don't have that expertise. But if we want something out of these people, we have to tap into who they are, and we have to tap into what motivate them. One of the things that I always say to leaders is unless you use force or violence, which obviously is illegal in both our countries, to have people do things for you, you cannot know human being can motivate another human be to do anything at any time for any reasons.
• 19:02
  What we can do very easily though is tap into their motivations and bring them with us. What is it about what I'm doing that's beneficial for you that you're gonna want to do it? And back to your third point, which is actually the first thing that you said was, you know, lawyer firms are, you know, extremely fast paced and it's like, go, go, go, go, go, go. I totally get that. But and that was in the last McKinsey report.
• 19:34
  If you show empathy towards an employee, the engagement goes up. Engagement equals productivity. It equals bottom line. It increases retention. How is that good for business?
• 19:54
  It increases the bottom line by 86% just by investing fifteen minutes a week and actually caring. So I understand the the the even though I'm not a lawyer and I'm thank goodness I have not had to hire lawyers much in my life except when I bought and sold the business, I still fifteen minutes per employee just to care. Just care. And watch what that's going to do you to your bottom line. Just watch it.
• 20:30
  No. Actually, you know what? Don't believe me. Try it. And see how quickly these people are gonna be more engaged.
• 20:37
  And I will add and shut up after that. And I will add, well, you know, maybe taking a break once in a while would be good for you too as a as an individual in taking care of your people. Humans are not designed to go go go go go go go That's why people die eighteen months after they retire at 58.
• 21:02
  Davina: That is the nature of the industry, And I think there are a lot of people who are changing the industry. We have a new generation of lawyers that are coming in that are changing the industry. We're seeing a lot more people start their own firms and try to create a business environment that they want to have. And that's where we're seeing a lot more women. Kind of my mission is to get more women to start their own law firms, grow their own law firms, and create the kind of work environments that they wish were available that are not available in traditional big law, which moves very slowly and changes very slowly.
• 21:38
  So one of the things that really stood out to me was this mission oriented leadership because we were talking about the military. The military, it's about the mission, right? And the military does a great job in training leaders because they're mission focused. And so I wonder, in a in a when we're talking about leadership in a private vision, one of the things that I think is important is to have a mission that is bigger than the money. Right?
• 22:14
  So we have lawyers are out there in all different kinds of practice areas, are doing really powerful work where they're really giving back to people. They're either helping them get divorced or they're saving them from life in prison or they're helping them leave a legacy for their family so their family doesn't struggle when they die or, you know, just any time personal injury, they're really helping people get the resources that they need to recover from a life debilitating injury. So they're doing very meaningful. Of course, with the immigration stuff that's going on, our immigration lawyers are just really of saviors for a lot of people right now. So there's a lot of amazing work that lawyers are doing.
• 23:00
  And I think there's often a lack of conveying that mission to people and and helping them and and tapping into instead of, like, the you know, you're personally about your trials and troubles and things that are going on in your family, but tapping into that gift that they have. Then you talk about how the military is very good at tapping into that gift and say, what is it that you bring to the team, and why is that special and important? So I see a lot of room there in that way. So how might we do that with our employees and sort of tapping into what makes them such an important contributor to the team so that they fired in the mission, in accomplishing the mission?
• 23:49
  Isabelle: It's a great question. There's two ways. The way that I do my practice, there's two ways, and I really strongly encourage both and and actually the the first one that I'll talk about I not only encourage I impose when working with me that is. The first one is a psychometric assessment. So I use an assessment that's from Switzerland.
• 24:18
  It's called NOVA, and it's truly about how is that person's brain connected. So the particular things about NOVA is not only will it tell you how that person's natural abilities are, what's their, cognitive preference, their behavioral preferences, their communication preferences, but also what areas have they adapted? So meaning, what areas are they completely natural? In what areas of their lives are you dealing with the persona? So I when I work with a team or a leader, I I do that.
• 25:00
  That's that's the entry level thing that they get because I wanna be efficient, and I wanna know who I'm speaking with so that I can better provide the right tools for that person. But adding to that is that they also get the reports for everybody on their team. So this is how you communicate with this person. And this is the kind of, you know, work that this person would be best at. So if you I'm throwing things out there.
• 25:33
  If you have one person that's data oriented or extremely structured in the way that their brain is wired, why not give that person all of the data, task management that there is to be done in that particular law firm? So that's the first thing. The second thing, other than the psychometric assessment, is actually giving them the tools to really find out what is the best thing for that individual. How do you communicate effectively with that person? And it doesn't have to be having them having every team member confide in you.
• 26:16
  That doesn't it you know, sometimes you're their boss, and it's it's okay if it's friendly. It doesn't mean that you're gonna, you know, invite them all to your house for dinner. That's not what I'm saying. It's just how do you get to the human behind the guy or the girl doing the job? Right?
• 26:33
  So how do you recognize or how do you get connected on a human level? And that's all there is to it. And you know what, Davina? Most people, men, women, I know this is more women centric, and that's beautiful, but we need to be recognized as an individual. We all do.
• 26:55
  We all need that. So but it doesn't take much for us to have that feeling that we were seen and heard and valued. It doesn't have to be, you know, I my boss sends me on vacation for a week every every year. That it doesn't have to be that. Sometimes just remembering their their kids' names, their spouse's name, what they did over over the weekend, how long they've been in their houses, and etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, that's enough.
• 27:26
  And how they do what they do at work and what tools they need to do it better.
• 27:31
  Davina: Mhmm. I think the challenge, as somebody who's been working with women law firm owners for over a decade, one of the challenges I see with women as they become bosses, and this is common with small business owners, is, you know, they start out they're they're family. Like, I'm starting out. I'm scared. So I hire people, and then they become I get to know them very well.
• 27:59
  They get to know me, and there's almost this little blending of personal and business. But, really, that next level piece is what I'm talking about here is when we're like, I think oftentimes we tend to go too far with it, and then suddenly we're in a situation. So I guess that's why I'm kind of pulling at this thread a little bit because I think that's really a challenge that a lot of people have is they're too emotionally, invested as though the people working for them are their friends. And then when they're not getting sort of growing, getting to the next level, they're sort of going, wait a minute. I'm the boss.
• 28:40
  How do I I'm let now I'm left out of happy hours. And now people are talking about me, and now things are going. And so they have to reframe and relearn their position in the in the business. So that's why I'm kind of pushing back on this idea of kind of getting to know people because I don't think that's the problem with the women I'm working with. They know all about everybody.
• 29:03
  They know all about what's going on and they're great. But then if they're not performing because they're family, We're all family here, right? This is where we struggle with leadership. I don't see women lawyers, and again, this is a generalization because there are certainly some out there who are like, no, I don't want to know about your business. But generally speaking, the clients I work with, that's not the problem.
• 29:34
  The problem is is the leadership pro it's the stepping and saying, and I see this this dynamic show up particularly with women working with women. I have worked in environments where I've seen men will say to women who are subordinate to them, do this, do that. They go, yes. Okay. Okay.
• 29:56
  Okay. And women working for women will will have this little, like, who do you think you are to tell me what to do? Well, I'm the one who writes your checks. And this dynamic comes up a lot with women working with women. So as a woman boss, a woman leader of an organization, how do we break that sort of cycle of and I think it's just a cultural thing.
• 30:21
  Like, women are brought up to compete with each other on a one on one sort of level. You know? We play games that are one on one sort of level. We you have the best friend, and if you have a third friend in the best friend dynamic, it doesn't go well. And so, you know, I I think there's a particular challenge of for women bosses being you're either, you know, you're either one of the gang or who does she think she is.
• 30:52
  Isabelle: Well, I love that you pushed back. That's the first thing because this is your audience, and you you know their reality better than I do. Of course, I work again, I work with it's very industry agnostic, what I do for a living. Right? Right.
• 31:07
  Excuse me. That one caught me off guard. I I think that women as leaders, what I've encountered often, when dealing with, women leaders is that, yeah, they wanna be part of the gang. It's like, you know, they care, and they sometimes scare. I don't wanna say too much because I don't believe there's such a thing.
• 31:37
  It's excuse me.
• 31:44
  Davina: Need to stop me. Grab some water, you can.
• 31:47
  Isabelle: Yeah. Thank you. There you go. I'm just gonna pause for a second so you know where to cut. So I think that for women leaders, it's not that they don't care.
• 32:06
  It's not that they don't invest the time. It's not that they don't know who's doing what on the weekends or whatever. Is they want to be liked. They want to be part of the gang. And I love your example where, well, you know, if they hire just one assistant and then or paralegal and then another, and then it becomes a little tramp.
• 32:29
  And then, you know, it's it's the the personal and the professional gets all intertwined in that as soon as the law firm grows and grows and grows, well, eventually, you are, you know, left out. And I can certainly understand why women would go, okay. So all of a sudden, I'm the boss. Well, no. You've been the boss all this time.
• 32:50
  It's just that it is easier. The the familiarity of things is easier for a smaller group of people. Right? So one of the things that I encounter is women tend to want to be like liked more than they want to lead, and it is unkind, and it actually lack empathy lacks empathy to not have the difficult conversations when they need to be had. So if somebody needs to be fired or let go don't like the word discipline or yeah.
• 33:39
  Thank you. I like that word better. It is your job and your responsibility as a leader to say, okay. You and I are friendly, and I love our, you know, personal relationship, and you are part of my my family. But here, I am also the boss, and I do need to make sure that this is aligned with where I'm I'm taking my firm and that you are aligned with the, quote, unquote, company culture.
• 34:12
  And I recently had to coach someone to actually fire someone they love. And the only thing that I and it's a woman firing another woman. And I said, you are not giving her the opportunity to grow outside of your organization because she's being extremely well paid and she may not leave. But you don't know long term if that's gonna be bad or good for her. You're presuming or you're assuming that firing someone is bad for them.
• 34:49
  But you know what? I've been fired once in my life, and, Davina, thank god. Yeah. Because at the time, I didn't see that I didn't fit. Right.
• 35:02
  But you know what? If you don't fit in an organization, it is impossible that the reverse not be the same thing. Mhmm. Mhmm. Right?
• 35:13
  Davina: I once had a mentor say to me, he said, if you have decided that there is no place within your organization for this person to go because the tide has already turned in how you feel about it, you're doing them a disservice by not letting them go so they can go find opportunity elsewhere. And that was such a powerful, statement when I heard it. And I've shared it many times over with my clients when they're struggling with that because I think there is that sort of feeling of, and it's a little bit, patronizing. You know? And we don't mean it to be.
• 35:50
  But but I think they're going, you know, oh, I feel so bad about firing this person because I worry about they've got kids and they won't you know, and all this kind of stuff. And it's like, yes. But if they don't if they're not if they're not excelling in their job here, there's a struggle for them, and they need to go find the place where they really shine. And that's not gonna be in your organization for whatever. And so you're really doing them a disservice.
• 36:14
  And and I have been fired. I've been fired more than once. And it it's one of those things that it's I I tend to have a personality where I stay too long at the party anyway. Know something's not good for me, but I tend to stay. I'm very loyal.
• 36:32
  I like routine. There's a lot of things. So I've had people kick me out of the nest and say, You need to go. Because I'm acting out in a way, in an organization, by not conforming or not agreeing or not being on board with something. And then they're going, this isn't for you because I'm not behind the mission, basically.
• 36:54
  And I never had anybody say that to me in that way. It's always a different you know, people put things in different ways. But reflecting back on a career and saying all the times that I've been fired has been somebody telling me what I knew in my gut but didn't have the courage to do for myself. Right? Absolutely.
• 37:14
  And it's always hindsight. Know, in the moment, it hurts. It's never fun and all of that kind of stuff. But I think as a boss, we really have to keep in mind and one of the things that I talk to my clients about right when we start is your business is not your baby. You are the steward of this business.
• 37:34
  It is you are the steward, and you have to make decisions, like like, not what is best for Devina, but what is best for the business. Right? Those are two very different things. If you're sitting here, you and I are in a conversation, what may be best for me personally is to have you like me, to go along to get along, to not disrupt things. Way I can just disengage and go on about my business.
• 38:04
  But if I'm the leader of business, I have to think first as a fiduciary, a steward of that business, and go, what does this business need? And I need to be strong enough to give it what it needs. And that's a very different mindset, in terms of of leading a business.
• 38:23
  Isabelle: Were talking not your friends either. You can be extremely friendly with them, but your employees aren't supposed to be your friends. Like, kids aren't supposed to be your friends either. Yeah. Yeah.
• 38:34
  They a loving, absolutely phenomenal relationship with your daughter, your son. It doesn't matter, whichever. But you're still that person's parent, and your job is to be their parent. And their parent. And, you know, maybe when they're 40, you're 60.
• 38:54
  Okay. That's another ballgame. That's an adult win an adult. But your employees, you sign their checks, or you're in a position of authority, period.
• 39:05
  Davina: Right. Right. And I think that is the challenge for a lot of people as they grow. So this is why it's so important to really invest in some training so that you're able to because it's hard to be objective about yourself. We all have that blind spot about ourselves.
• 39:22
  When we engage in training, we're like having, oh, okay. I hire people to help me hire people because I do not like to go through the hiring process. And what I tend to do if I'm meeting people for the first time and nobody else has pre interviewed them is I will find something to like about everybody. So I will be sitting here going, I wanna hire them all, or I will find somebody with a personality that's completely the opposite of mine that just immediately turns me off. And it could be that they're the exact person I need because I need somebody that's compensating for my weaknesses or the weaknesses on the team or whatever.
• 40:04
  So, I think knowing yourself, the only person you can control is yourself. So the only person's behavior you can actually control is yourself. So then taking a look at yourself, I think is critical. So if we're looking at ourselves as kind of assessing our leadership skills, what are just one or two things that we should probably be asking ourselves in terms of our leadership and finding kind of those weak spots in our leadership.
• 40:40
  Isabelle: No, we shouldn't be asking ourselves. We should be asking anonymously our direct reports. And how do we do
• 40:49
  Davina: that? How do we do that if we have a small Create
• 40:52
  Isabelle: a create a a survey where they answer questions, no name, piped, just and it's you need the real answers and for the same reason that you are not their friends because you're signing their paycheck they need to do it in an anonymous way so that you get the truth or at least a direction towards the truth. Of course, it's easier if you're dealing with an outside coach because if I'm meeting with your team, they're going to tell me the truth. Right? Right. Because when I when I work with a team, I meet with every single individual when I do their either their debrief, but and and I tell them whatever you're going to share with you with me is go you're you have complete amnesty.
• 41:48
  I am not sharing what you're going to tell me with anyone. But if, you know, a team of five, if four people out of five were telling me the same thing, well, then I know how what exactly to address leads to.
• 42:02
  Davina: So that brings me to another question. Yep. When you said four out of five are telling me, so my question is, you got one person telling you something. Is there ever a moment when the employee is wrong? Yes.
• 42:21
  Because I have seen where of course, I'm working with the CEOs of the law firm. I'm working with the people who own the law firm. Sometimes they will say, So and so said this about me as she was leaving, you know, or said I'm toxic, or I said this, or I did that, or whatever. And most of the people I work with are very they take it to heart. They really reflect.
• 42:50
  What did I do? Did I do something? Am I this way or what? And so I wonder, because sometimes I think we could hire the wrong people as well. Right?
• 43:04
  There's that side of it where I've hired the wrong person, but I don't know enough what to look for. When you're kind of doing this anonymous assessment, what kinds of things are you pattern, obviously, is something that you're looking for. Is there a pattern?
• 43:24
  Isabelle: Is there a pattern? Is the majority of people and the the the thing is when I meet with the employees, each debrief is ninety minutes. So I have a lot of time, and I have tools to to get to, okay. Is this a perception or is that fact? Right?
• 43:45
  So Right. And, honestly, if 90% of people are telling me the same thing differently or with a different, you know, tone or whatever, well, then more than likely, we're talking about a fact. And it's not only a perception. Maybe somebody perceived it to be, like, you know, nine out of 10, it was the most horrible thing. And the other one is gonna say, well, it's a three, but it was extremely unpleasant.
• 44:16
  So that's perception. But if everybody is talking about the same, I'll say flaw in that word, but I'll say flaw, well, then more than likely, it's something to build on and to work to work towards. Correct? Right. Right.
• 44:31
  So but to your question, is is sometimes the employee wrong? Absolutely sometimes. And it's the same thing. The client's always right. No.
• 44:42
  Hell no. Hell no. The client's not always right. Sometimes the client is being served by the wrong person for them. I can go to the greatest restaurant.
• 44:52
  I don't like eating in restaurants. I really don't. I prefer my food. I it's sort of hot. I don't have to wait.
• 44:58
  I don't have to deal with crap. I just that's so if I go to a five star restaurant here where I live first of all, for me, it's a waste of money because I'm not enjoying it. So you're gonna ask me how that restaurant was, and I'll say, okay. Overpriced. And maybe you're gonna go and you're gonna say, oh my god.
• 45:20
  This was phenomenal. Like, what are you talking about? Well, I'm talking about my preferences. Right? Nobody's right.
• 45:28
  Nobody's wrong. It's just that's what what that's what is for me, and that's what is for you. Right? So is you know, are employees wrong? All of the time.
• 45:41
  All of the time.
• 45:42
  Davina: Yeah. I think that's I love the idea of having, an outside person come in and sort of, ask those questions and evaluate and give that feedback, especially if you are if you own the firm and you've had a lot of turnover for reasons that seem to be related to you or you've had people who say, I I I can't work with you or you're toxic or you if you're starting if you're hearing those things, more often or in in some cases, again, there are a lot of when you go through law school and you become a lawyer, you often become very direct and very pointed, which I actually encourage people to be because I think a lot of times I grew up in the Deep South in The US and there's a lot of honey and sugar that goes along with everything and there's a lot of misunderstanding and miscommunication because of that not being able to be direct. So I'd like direct. But I know that there are people who are accustomed to that coming from women especially and take that and get offended by it. That's why I bring up sort of the employee thing that maybe there are some people that are better for your personality and your leadership style as long as your leadership style is not toxic or passive aggressive or something like that.
• 47:04
  We do need to end, and I really hate it because I wish we had more time because I have I've enjoyed picking your brain. I know I've been grilling you like
• 47:12
  Isabelle: That is total. But I had to bagged with Vina. That's okay.
• 47:17
  Davina: I love this topic. I've enjoyed it a lot. Tell us how we can reach out to you and connect with you if we wanna know more about what you do and maybe talk with you about bringing you into our business.
• 47:30
  Isabelle: The first place is againsttheordinary.org because I am against ordinary leadership. And the other place is on LinkedIn. That's pretty much my hangout place. My name is Isabelle Fortin, and there's a bunch of us. Look for the one with the purple hair.
• 47:47
  Davina: Okay. Good. And she does have beautiful purple hair. So for those of you who are listening to this and not watching videos. Alright.
• 47:54
  Isabelle, it was so great. I really enjoyed it so much. Thanks for being here.
• 47:58
  Isabelle: Thank you for having me. I hope I didn't push back too hard either.
• 48:02
  Davina: You did great. You did great.
• 48:04
  Intro: If you're ready to create more of what you truly desire in your business and your life, then you'll want to visit us at wealthywomanlawyer.com to learn more about how we help clients create wealth generating law firms with ease.