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Senator Cynthia Lummis | Simply Bitcoin IRL · Simply Bitcoin

0:00
So when I look at a strategic Bitcoin reserve and its ability
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to grow and help me right the wrongs that my generation did by
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driving us into this terrible debt, it's the only vehicle I
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see that can have that consequential an effect.
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The Strategic Bitcoin Reserve can help people in my generation
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right the wrongs that we did to your generation and generations
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to follow, and I feel deeply committed to making that happen.
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All right, we are here in beautiful Washington, DC, the
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day after a historical inauguration, the inauguration
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of Donald J Trump for president. I'm joined here with the Bitcoin
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senator, Senator Cynthia Lummis of Wyoming, and of course,
0:58
Dennis Porter of the Satoshi Action Fund.
1:02
Senator Lummis, you had AI would say a historic keynote at the
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Nashville 2024 conference. You talked about the Bitcoin
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Act. I just want to read a little bit
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of the notes. It's it will introduce a
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strategic Bitcoin reserve in the United States with the plan to
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acquire up to 5% of the Bitcoin supply or 1,000,000 Bitcoin and
1:25
a holding period of a minimum of 20 years.
1:29
How would the Bitcoin Act benefit Americans?
1:33
Well, Nico, thanks for the question.
1:35
I did raise it at Bitcoin 2024 in Nashville and I spoke right
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after President Trump and I thought, Oh my gosh, this is
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going to be the most anti climatic remarks anybody's ever
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given coming after Trump. But the wonderful thing was that
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President Trump advocated in his remarks, which preceded mine for
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a strategic Bitcoin stockpile. And so it gave complete entree
2:04
for me to roll out the Bitcoin Act.
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What it will do, as you just said, is create a strategic
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Bitcoin reserve of 5% of all Bitcoin over A5 year period and
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then hold it for 20 years as you just pointed out.
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Not by raising taxes and investing in Bitcoin, but by
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using existing assets within the Federal Reserve System and
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treasury. And then we'll have a hard asset
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that will grow in value. So 20 years after the full
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implementation of the 200,000 Bitcoin per year, until we have
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a million Bitcoin, we'll cut our current debt in half.
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And that's using models that project the growth of Bitcoin so
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we can use it during the years that it's growing to underpin
3:06
and shore up the US dollar as the world's reserve currency.
3:11
And having the US dollar as the world's reserve currency is
3:14
extremely important to support through this century.
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So it gives us favorable trade advantages.
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It ensures that the US dollar is the most accepted currency
3:27
worldwide. And then with Bitcoin
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underpinning it and being also a global means of exchange and
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store of value, gives us that double support for the US
3:41
dollar. Absolutely.
3:43
So Senator, you have been in the vanguard of the Strategic
3:46
Bitcoin Reserve initiative on the federal level.
3:49
Dennis, you've been in the vanguard of the Strategic
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Bitcoin Reserve on the state level.
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I'm just going to name a couple states off the top of my head.
3:57
The great state of Ohio, the great state of Pennsylvania, the
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great state of Florida. I believe some news just came
4:02
out of there recently and I know I'm missing a couple.
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So what is the importance of really moving this initiative
4:08
forward on the state level? It's a great question and also
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what an honor to be with you here today.
4:13
Senator Lummus and Niko, thank you for all the incredible stuff
4:16
that you do on the content side. For me, I certainly am very
4:20
bullish and very supportive of the legislation at the federal
4:22
level. But ultimately, at the end of
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the day, the states would really benefit from having a strategic
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Bitcoin reserve because the states don't have an unlimited
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money printer. They don't have unlimited
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budgets, and so they're dealing with massive budget shortfalls
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and the inability to protect the purchasing power of the money
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that they currently have on hand, the money that they
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currently get through taxation. And that's a huge problem.
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Since 2018, the dollar has lost 25% of its purchasing power.
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That's a huge hit to the budgets of states who again, do not have
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the ability to print unlimited money.
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And so by having a strategic Bitcoin reserve, even a very
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small percent, we're not talking about 50 or set or even 25% of
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their budget. We're even talking about single
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digit amounts of their budget being in or the rainy day funds
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being in Bitcoin. They have the ability to protect
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themselves from the debasement that is occurring at the federal
5:09
level and ensure that they can continue to pay for the programs
5:11
that they currently have without having to raise taxes.
5:14
Absolutely. I feel a little bit of
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competition. Who do you think is going to be
5:17
first, the federal level strategic Bitcoin Reserve or
5:20
state level Senator Lummis? Having been my state's treasurer
5:25
and served in the Wyoming legislature, I think the states
5:28
are going to be first. States are the innovators of the
5:34
country. They're the incubators of
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innovation. And so I think some of these
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states are going to see the advantages first.
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Dennis described them well. I was my state's treasurer.
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I wanted to diversify our sovereign wealth fund.
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We have a permanent mineral trust fund, so it's like an
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endowment or a sovereign wealth fund.
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And when I was state treasurer, I got to diversify our asset
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allocation out of just bonds into a fully diversified asset
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allocation of stocks and bonds. This is one of those buy and
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hold assets so you can have it continue to grow.
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As Dennis said, while our own dollar is declining in value.
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the US dollar is designed to decline in value cause the
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Federal Reserve has a 2% inflation target every year, so
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by design it's falling in value. The salary that US senators get,
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which have has been flat the same since 2009, is $174,000 a
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year per senator today. That salary that I was paid when
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I got here in 2009 buys about $122,000 worth of rent, food and
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living expense for here in Washington.
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So the dollar has declined. Bitcoin has grown that whole
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time, and it has grown, if you look at its history, about 55%
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each year. And of course it fluctuates, but
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it's fluctuating upward where the US dollar is fluctuating
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less but fluctuating downward. Absolutely.
7:22
So, Senator, what's the status of the bill?
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How, you know, we just had an election?
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Do you have support in the Senate to pass this?
7:31
We are working right now to identify a bipartisan coalition
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to get it passed, but we want to make sure that this is
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bipartisan and it has to be to get the 60 vote threshold
7:46
required in the US Senate. And I've been working with
7:49
colleagues in the House to promote this idea, and we're
7:54
having good success. We're not there yet, but we're
7:57
having good success. Glad to hear it, Dennis, same
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question to you. There's, there's been a lot of
8:03
these bills introduced on the state level.
8:06
Which state do you believe is going to be first?
8:09
Well, I know which one I believe is going to be first, but before
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I I get there, I do wanted to just go back to what the Senator
8:14
had said about the ability to incubate great ideas of the
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state level. We call it the laboratory of
8:19
democracy. We can take those cutting edge
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innovative ideas, which really the strategic Bitcoin reserve
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legislative idea has been something that you've championed
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so well. And we're just proud to be able
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to pick up that mantle and carry it forward at the state level
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where we have now 11 states that have introduced strategic
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Bitcoin reserve legislation. We think we'll get to 15 within
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2020, 25 alone. It could be many more than that.
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And some states will have multiple bills because lawmakers
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are now competing to be the first one in their own state.
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But we and we had a space this week.
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And so now I can publicly say it.
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Just yesterday announced that Utah was the 11th state to
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introduce strategic Bickman reserve legislation.
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And people ask me, well, who's going to be first?
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Well, there's a very, very, very good shot that Utah will be
8:58
first because they have such a short legislative calendar.
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It is only 45 days. And so it's either sink or swim
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in 45 days. No one else has a faster
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calendar and no one else has more political momentum and
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willpower to get it done. The state of Utah has a task
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force, a digital asset task force that meets in the
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offseason, and it's filled with lawmakers and has the treasure
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in there as well. And every offseason when they're
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not meeting because they're part time, you know, Congress meets
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year round. States often times meet part
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time well they need in the offseason for the state of Utah
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and they vote. They pre vote on bills to see
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which ones they want to try to get that political momentum
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behind. Every single bill that has come
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out of that task force has ultimately passed into law over
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the last several years and our strategic Bitcoin reserve
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legislation just passed out of that task force.
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So not only do they have the political momentum, but they
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have the timeline on their side. So we firmly believe that Utah
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will be the very first state to introduce this legislation,
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which is key. And we should give a real quick
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note to the legislators in Utah who just such an incredible job
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running their state, their Top Rank to across the country.
9:57
And they also last year passed a bill to allow the purchase of
10:00
gold and silver. And we more or less amended or
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already pre-existing legislation that came out of Utah, which is
10:06
seen as a policy leader to say, let's include Bitcoin.
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They agreed with that. We've been moving forward with
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it. The task force approved it.
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They have the shortest timeline and we think we're going to get
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it done in the state of Utah. Absolute.
10:16
That's is that, is that big breaking?
10:18
Is that Dennis breaking? That's breaking.
10:20
Great to hear, Senator Lummis. Trump was just sworn into office
10:25
yesterday. How close are you working with
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the Trump administration in regards to the Strategic Bitcoin
10:30
Reserve? And we're working very closely
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with them and we know that there are a number of pro digital
10:37
asset appointees within his administration, people who are
10:43
are favorable towards both our framework for digital assets
10:49
within the SEC, the CFTC and other regulatory agencies, but
10:54
also a strategic Bitcoin reserve.
10:58
So we'll be working with his treasurer nominee, Mr. Besant,
11:03
we'll be working with his crypto czar, with the SEC appointees,
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the CFTC appointee. We're very excited that Hester
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Purse, who is at SEC and who is very knowledgeable about digital
11:20
assets will be the lead SEC commissioner on this issue.
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We're excited about reform at the FDIC.
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We need reform at the Fed, the bank supervision component of
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the Fed in particular. And so we are working regularly
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with the White House. And then interestingly, there
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are other advocates within the administration that are not
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specifically within the rubric of financial control.
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For example, RFK, who hopefully will be confirmed at HHS Health
12:01
and Human Services, is an ardent supporter of a Bitcoin strategic
12:07
reserve. He proposed a bigger one than I
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proposed at Bitcoin 2024. And then there are other
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advocates like him, Kash Patel, who's going to be at Justice is
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interestingly someone with whom I've had really great
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conversations about digital assets and Bitcoin specifically.
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So this is a very different looking cabinet and White House
12:36
than the last one when it comes to understanding digital assets.
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And so many people it, it sounds so foreign to them that they
12:45
just don't even want to take the time.
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And it, I admit it does take time.
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It took me a long time to really dive in enough to Bitcoin that I
12:56
understood it. It's an age-related syndrome.
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But that we have 'cause it's, it's so new.
13:05
And but some of us, people my age, baby boomers, forget that
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we hardly ever see cash anymore. We're dealing with credit cards
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and statements and bank notes and people loan us money.
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They're not handing it to us in cash.
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It's there's a system that is all electronic already embedded
13:29
in the US economy. And so Bitcoin is the next step.
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It's the sort of natural progression from the current
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system, but for some people it's just a step too far.
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And that's why what you're doing is so important, helping educate
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people about how significant and yet similar Bitcoin is.
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It's the next natural progression.
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Absolutely. And also, Senator, it was, I was
13:59
doing some research. The Banking Committee launched a
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subcommittee on digital assets and you were named the chair,
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You were tapped to be the chair. So congratulations on that.
14:09
What is going to be the focus of that subcommittee?
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Why is that subcommittee necessary?
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Well, I think it's very important because we'll get an
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opportunity finally to marry up FIT 21 that passed the US House
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last year with Lemus Gillibrand, which is the bipartisan
14:30
companion here in the Senate, will be able to hopefully
14:34
dovetail and meld some of the differences between those bills
14:38
and get a regulatory framework on the books.
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Right now, a lot of regulation is happening by slapping fines
14:51
on companies that are custodying assets or working in other ways
14:56
with digital assets. And they're paying 10s of
15:00
millions of dollars in legal fees to lawyers to try to defend
15:05
what they're doing when there is no clear regulatory framework.
15:10
They're trying to comply, but instead of being told how to
15:15
comply, they're being slapped with enforcement actions.
15:21
So it'll be very beneficial to have a framework in statute so
15:27
people know how to comply with the regulatory framework
15:31
expected of them to do business in the United States.
15:34
And President Trump has said loud and clear that he wants the
15:39
United States to be the global leader in these policies.
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And so we're setting out to do that.
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So also with the framework, we want to make sure that there's a
15:50
stable coin bill. We want to make sure that we
15:54
have an opportunity to have a strategic Bitcoin reserve on the
15:58
books that includes protection for individuals, individual
16:04
wallets that creates that sovereign ability to own Bitcoin
16:09
and protected in statute. You'll recall over time people
16:13
held gold and the United States made them surrender it to the
16:17
government. We want to make sure that never
16:19
happens with Bitcoin and we're proposing a reserve for Bitcoin
16:24
for the United States that's the same size as our current gold
16:29
holdings, but that protects the ability of individuals to have
16:34
their individual wallets. The other component of our bill
16:38
is to make sure that states, if they want to, can have, can
16:42
participate in these disparate holdings of Bitcoin that are
16:49
extremely secure and protected. So we think that this bill is is
16:54
the right framework to move forward.
16:57
So those are the three early priorities.
17:00
There will be others. We will be holding herrings on
17:03
Choke .2 Point O. Honestly, it's shocking how the
17:08
past administration debanked digital assets, oil, gas, coal,
17:15
ammunition, guns. The Trump's were debanked.
17:19
They were at Signature Bank. Jim and I was debanked.
17:25
Silvergate Bank was assassinated.
17:28
It was never insolvent and they drove it out.
17:34
It what what the government did to Americans by de banking them
17:41
should never happen again. Of course.
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And I'm so glad that you're talking about passing
17:47
legislation to protect the individual's right to take self
17:51
custody of their Bitcoin. I think that's incredibly
17:53
important, Dennis. I know that.
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You have successfully. Passed bills on that specific
17:58
subject on the state level, believe it was Montana, but a
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couple states have have passed laws to protect the right to
18:04
self custody and then I want to go back.
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To. Operation Choke .2 point.
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No, yes. Well, for me, you know, taking a
18:12
step back to how Satoshi action started in the 1st place was
18:17
that it was the middle of the shutdowns and everybody was
18:20
really worried about the direction the country was headed
18:22
in with regards to Bitcoin. We saw what the current
18:24
administration was moving towards and I just thought to
18:27
myself, man, I'm about to be faced, possibly faced with the
18:32
idea of either giving up my Bitcoin or fleeing the country
18:35
or going underground. None of these are good options.
18:38
You know, I've grown up in a family that really cared about
18:40
engaging politically. And I realized that this is the
18:42
time in my life that I needed to engage politically, not just to
18:45
protect my own rights, of course, to access Bitcoin, but
18:48
the rights of others across the country as well.
18:49
So that's why the very, very first thing that we did at
18:51
Satoshi Action was to protect the right to access Bitcoin.
18:55
So we protected the right to mine, protected the right to
18:58
self custody, the right to run a node, and the right to
19:00
peer-to-peer transactions in four different states.
19:02
Now very, very different variations of that policy are
19:05
now in those four states signed into law by 4 different
19:07
governors who all agreed we should be ensuring that
19:10
Americans can access technology, whether it's Bitcoin or anything
19:14
else. And so it was, it was a fairly
19:17
rational conversation to have with those lawmakers who got on
19:20
board pretty quickly to see the value of the policy.
19:22
We're continuing to push that objective of four of, you know,
19:24
strategic Bitcoin reserve legislation is the exciting
19:27
thing that everybody is talking about.
19:29
But we are going to be studying, staying dedicated and focused on
19:31
passing Bitcoin rights and very excited to see that the senator
19:34
agrees. And it's also working on passing
19:36
that at the federal level as well.
19:37
Because everything that we do at the state level is a sort of a
19:40
backstop. And it is a Plan B, so to speak,
19:43
of its own where if we can't get anything done at the federal
19:45
level, we continue to build that political momentum.
19:48
We show the Americans and we show the policy makers that this
19:51
stuff is rational and achievable policy that lawmakers are
19:54
willing to get behind to put their name on.
19:56
And so we have these six or seven states that are going to
19:59
be working on that policy this year.
20:00
We're confident we're going to continue to expand those rights
20:02
so that we create a bulwark of states that can protect
20:05
bitcoiners and ensure that they can exist here in the United
20:08
States without fear of federal overreach.
20:10
And it's it's something that I care a lot about, even though
20:12
it's not the the shiny SBR project, but it's something that
20:16
is desperately needed. And I'm glad to see that there's
20:17
going to be a federal effort in this in this regard as well.
20:20
You. Know when state governments and
20:22
the federal governments compete for your Bitcoin, I think you
20:24
win as a bitcoiner. So glad to hear it.
20:27
So operation choke point 2.0 I, I have a have a news show.
20:32
I do it Monday through Friday and Senator Lummus mid time last
20:38
year I thought I was going to have to move to El Salvador.
20:41
Wasn't wasn't not kidding when I say that the arrest of the
20:46
samurai wallet developers, the actions by the treasury, the
20:49
proposed 30% Bitcoin mining tax. I I I had a conversation with
20:54
Caitlin long with Custodia bank. She literally told me when she
20:58
came on my show, she said they denied my federal banking
21:02
charter. That order came directly from
21:04
the White House and it was, it was pretty scary to be a Bitcoin
21:08
entrepreneur in the United States.
21:11
I, I, I really feel like our industry was targeted.
21:14
Now earlier on this week, coming out of your ex account, Senator
21:19
Lummis, you, you said that the FDIC, that there is a
21:22
whistleblowers that the FDIC was destroying documents in regards
21:27
to what was happening in the background.
21:29
Do you, do you have any details in regards to that what what
21:32
happened last year? Oh my gosh.
21:35
Well, so we understand through whistleblowers that there has
21:39
been document destruction going on in the last few days at the
21:44
FDIC. So we're sending a letter saying
21:49
stop destroying documents. We need you to preserve your
21:53
records. We know that there are personnel
21:57
changes happening quickly at the FDIC.
22:01
Some people may want to protect themselves from the reach of
22:06
federal subpoenas. It is unconscionable what
22:11
they've done to the American people.
22:14
I mean, when you think about just the way our country was
22:18
established, that we're establishing this government and
22:23
this government is here to serve us, well, it's been flipped on
22:29
its head at the FDIC, at the Fed and elsewhere within government.
22:38
They they want us to serve them. And if they say we don't like
22:42
oil and gas, we don't like digital assets, we don't like
22:45
Bitcoin, and we don't like it so much that we're not going to let
22:51
you have bank accounts. And that is what has happened.
22:55
So people who not only are going to get a new account and are
22:59
being denied, but people who have existing accounts are
23:04
getting kicked off the banking system, including payroll.
23:11
There are they? There are businesses that were
23:14
kicked out of banking just before they were trying to make
23:17
payroll for their employees. If you're an employee and all of
23:21
a sudden your employer can't write a check that you can cash
23:28
out of a bank account, what are you going to think of the
23:31
business? It's it, it is.
23:34
So it's almost unbelievable that our government would do this to
23:40
us, but they have, and we're going to expose it and we're
23:45
going to remediate this and make sure it can never happen again
23:49
in this country. We saw it happen in Canada.
23:52
You know, remember when the truckers were trying to cross
23:57
the border without proving they'd had a COVID test and the
24:01
government shut down their bank accounts and even shut down the
24:04
bank accounts of people who were contributing to them in
24:08
solidarity with their surrounding the Capitol to plead
24:15
their case? This is none of us have ever
24:18
seen this. It just seems like something out
24:22
of another century and so it this is something that has to be
24:26
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24:56
Senator and this is something that me and Dennis speak at
25:00
length about the necessity for Bitcoin to be a bipartisan
25:05
issue, not a partisan issue. What worries me a little bit is
25:12
how do I say this? I say the last three or four
25:14
years shown that perhaps not everyone on the other side of
25:18
the aisle, but it it seems like the seems like a certain party
25:22
feels a certain way about Bitcoin.
25:23
It is that monolithic. Are there?
25:26
People on the Democratic Party, are there senators and
25:29
congressmen and women that are that are willing to work with
25:32
you on this? Absolutely.
25:34
And how I'd parse it is this. There was a certain White House
25:40
that opposed this. That doesn't necessarily
25:44
translate to the whole party. So you have Kirsten Gillibrand,
25:50
who has been doggedly supportive of this, very knowledgeable.
25:57
She practiced securities law in New York for 12 years, minimum.
26:01
She has been doggedly supportive of what we're doing.
26:05
Ron Wyden and I tried to team up when they had that.
26:09
Really ridiculous definition of broker about 3 1/2 years ago.
26:15
That said, Bitcoin miners need to report because they have data
26:19
about their ultimate customers. I don't know a single miner,
26:23
unless they're holding it themselves, that knows who's
26:28
buying their Bitcoin. I mean, it was the stupidest
26:30
thing that came out of the administration.
26:33
Rod Wyden and I fought that. So he's he, he's conversant.
26:39
I know he has spent time at Bitcoin Commons in Austin, ROH
26:45
Khanna in the House and several other Democrats.
26:50
And when fit 21, the regulatory framework the House passed
26:55
passed. I think they had something like
26:57
80 Democrats. So I think it's not the Democrat
27:03
Party that's opposed. I think it was the White House,
27:07
and I think that there it was largely the circle of friends
27:14
that Elizabeth Warren is tremendously influential with.
27:19
She is wicked smart, but she does not like this asset.
27:24
Why does she like it, Senator? I don't know.
27:26
I don't know. I look forward to that
27:29
conversation and we're going to have it because she's the
27:32
ranking member of the Banking Committee.
27:34
So let me follow up with that and I want to go to Dennis.
27:36
So there was a there was a act that was the CBDC Anti
27:40
Surveillance State Act and it seems like the voting went
27:44
across party lines. It was 216 to 192 who'd be pro
27:51
CBDC. That's a great question.
27:54
I, I do think that there is more of a general trust of government
28:01
among a lot of Democrats than there are among Republicans.
28:05
And so the the idea of a central bank digital currency is it's
28:13
not anathema to them. Whereas to a lot of Republicans
28:17
who want smaller government believe in states rights over
28:21
federal rights, individual rights over either state or or
28:26
government, federal government rights.
28:28
We're the types that our brains are wired to not want a CBDC
28:35
cause we've seen how the Chinese digital yuan is being used as a
28:40
means of surveillance and we don't want our government
28:44
surveilling on us with the direct to retail CBDC.
28:49
And really the Fed doesn't need a CBDC to engage with other
28:56
central banks. They already have a frictionless
29:02
transfers among the central banks of the world, so they
29:09
don't really need it and direct to retail we don't want it.
29:14
Absolutely. Dennis, do you want to follow up
29:16
on that because I believe the state of Florida specific on the
29:19
state level, I love how you described the importance of the
29:23
States and how that's really moving things forward.
29:26
So on the state level, I believe the state of Florida passed the
29:29
bill to specifically banned central Bank Digital.
29:32
Currencies, there's been a number of states that have made
29:35
policy efforts in this regard and we would love to see more
29:39
concern around CBD CS. I think the direct to retail is
29:41
of course the the biggest area for concern.
29:43
We don't want consumers having direct access to CBD CS.
29:46
Now if a bank wants to send ACBDC to another bank, I think
29:48
that's a little less concerning. But on the, on the notion of
29:52
going back to this sort of like bipartisan component around
29:55
Bitcoin, it's really important that people keep in mind that I
29:59
do agree with you that it was from the White House and maybe
30:02
even more so just from Senator Warren and the folks that she's
30:04
around who, who don't like this technology, which is
30:07
unfortunate. And hopefully that that can
30:08
change. Hopefully we can have those
30:09
conversations because I, I see this in real time, you know, and
30:13
Twitter is not real life is what I like to say to people.
30:17
And I'm in the trenches, the senator's in the trenches.
30:20
We're having these conversations.
30:21
So we know there are Democrats that are supportive of this
30:24
technology. In fact, in the state of
30:26
Massachusetts, we just announced last week that there's a bill
30:29
introduction there actually multiple bill introductions
30:31
there for a strategic Bitcoin reserve bill.
30:33
And it's from 2 Democrats and one Republican.
30:36
And so there is bipartisan support even for the most what
30:38
people would consider to be the most cutting edge policy in
30:41
Bitcoin. And I'm proud to say there's
30:43
another state we're going to be announcing here very shortly
30:45
that is going to be working on Bitcoin rights, which is a deep,
30:47
deep. Deep Blue state.
30:49
And there's going to be broad support within the state.
30:51
I believe we're going to be working there this week even to
30:53
continue to build that support. So I'm having these
30:56
conversations not just with lawmakers, but even with average
30:59
Joe Bitcoiners, and I see that broad support.
31:02
Of course, Republicans deserve all the credit in the world for
31:04
being the ones leading on this issue, being the ones taking up
31:07
the mantle, taking charge of the issue and and fighting for
31:09
Bitcoin, especially the senator fighting for Bitcoin when no one
31:12
else is fighting for Bitcoin. But we do want to have this be a
31:16
bipartisan thing because the Senate is really where it's at.
31:19
You cannot get things done in the Senate without bipartisan
31:22
support, unless of course, Republicans want to, you know,
31:24
have a super or have a large much larger majority grow their
31:26
majority. But it's, it's really tough for
31:28
one party to get that many seats in the Senate in order to just
31:31
do whatever they think is the right thing to do.
31:33
So we need to get senators on board.
31:35
We need to get 4 Democrat senators on board really to seal
31:38
the deal on a lot of these pro Bitcoin policies that we want to
31:40
get done at the federal level. And then even at the state
31:42
level, you know, we'll go to states that are deep, deep red.
31:46
I mean, the reddest states that you could possibly be in, but
31:48
there's always there's always one or two Democrats, right?
31:51
There's always a few of them that are there because you've
31:52
got big cities and cities tend to be Democrat city that they
31:55
tend to turn blue. And so they can they can come in
31:58
and they can cause a lot of trouble.
31:59
I mean, even in the state of Missouri, as a quick example,
32:02
there's very few Democrats there.
32:03
It's very RedState. But the Senate is set up in a
32:06
way where 1 senator at the end of a what is a very short
32:08
session can just trade out with another senator and filibuster
32:13
to the whole thing is over and they don't pass anything.
32:14
So you, even though you might have a majority or even a super
32:18
majority, it's really important that you have both sides on
32:22
board and that that's true. If they switch the other
32:24
direction, we're going to always want to make sure that we have
32:26
allies in both parties to ensure that we can make progress with
32:28
Bitcoin. We don't want to.
32:30
We're at this place right now where we are fighting over
32:33
whether or not we should do Bitcoin, but we need to
32:35
transition over to how we do Bitcoin.
32:37
And I think we're very, very close to doing that, thanks in
32:40
large part to your office and to the senator for leading on it,
32:42
but also many other Democrats who are willing to be out there
32:45
pro Bitcoin even when the White House is telling them not to be.
32:49
Absolutely, Senator, what message do you have to Americans
32:52
that are potentially on the fence about bitcoins benefits?
32:59
Bitcoin is like digital gold. Bitcoin has that enduring hard
33:06
quality it it can be divided in any number of ways, so it's
33:13
infinitely divisible. Once it is produced, it
33:18
participates in a pool of scarcity.
33:21
There will only be 21 million Bitcoin ever mined.
33:25
And we know that the very definition of inflation, things
33:30
that go up in value is too much money chasing too few goods.
33:39
So when you have built in scarcity, you have an asset
33:44
that's almost protected to go up in value.
33:49
That's part of the problem with the US dollar.
33:51
We do have a printing press here in Washington.
33:54
We can crank out U.S. dollars 24/7 and it drives down the
34:02
value of the goods that can be purchased with those dollars.
34:07
We know that Bitcoin will always buy more and as both a means of
34:16
exchange, which it's going to come into its own as.
34:21
And what I like to use it for is a store of value where you buy
34:25
and hold. You know, you have something of
34:29
permanence that can't be stolen from you.
34:33
If you're protective of your private keys, that is yours and
34:38
yours alone. We had knowledge of an
34:42
individual who did not want to be conscripted to fight the war
34:49
in Ukraine. This was a Russian man and he
34:53
memorized his private keys. He walked out of the country to
34:58
go on vacation. He took his wealth with him in
35:02
his mind. And he's he's, he moved to a
35:06
free country and he didn't have to go fight a war he didn't
35:09
believe in. I mean, this is the kind of
35:12
individual freedom that Bitcoin provides to people.
35:16
So I feel more strongly about Bitcoin as a source of
35:21
individual freedom and the sovereign of the very individual
35:25
person then I even do about it as a a government asset that can
35:31
shore up the the value of the dollar.
35:34
This really is freedom. Money, absolutely.
35:37
And Dennis, I want to ask you, what can individuals do to speed
35:44
up the adoption of Bitcoin on the state level?
35:47
Boy, absolutely. There's so many ways that people
35:50
can speed up the adoption of Bitcoin by engaging with their
35:52
lawmakers and regulators. And we regularly tell people
35:55
that even just writing a letter to your lawmaker can make a
35:59
huge, huge difference. And that by starting at that
36:01
local level, you can have a huge impact as well.
36:03
Because the state law, state lawmakers are willing to try.
36:06
Do they actually? Read the letter.
36:08
Oh yeah, they do. They absolutely do.
36:09
And they also respond to them and they interact with them
36:12
well. And you know, sometimes when
36:13
they get too many letters, it's hard to get through them all,
36:15
but they absolutely do. And at bare minimum, maybe it's
36:18
a busy time, they ask, how many letters have we gotten about
36:21
this issue and where do they stand on the issue?
36:23
And then the staff will tell them, OK, this is where how many
36:26
letters we got and this is what people said.
36:28
That really does impact a lawmaker as well because often
36:30
times they're getting letters from their constituents.
36:33
And at the end of the day, lawmakers are accountable to the
36:36
vote of the people. And so if they're hearing from
36:38
their own constituents, this is where they stand.
36:40
That's going to have a big impact.
36:41
That's a very strong incentive for lawmakers to take an issue
36:44
seriously. And given the size of the race,
36:47
you know, a Senate races hundreds of thousands or
36:50
millions of people, the state race can be four.
36:53
I was just talking to state lawmaker in New Hampshire, 400
36:55
people that he represents, 500 people he represents.
36:57
Imagine if the people in his community all the sudden
37:00
selectively started writing letters to their lawmakers and
37:02
to that lawmaker and letting him know that they support Bitcoin.
37:05
It's, it's just a big, it's a big difference, the impact you
37:08
can have at the state level. And that's why I always
37:10
encourage people, yes, yes, go to DC and yes, talk to your
37:13
lawmakers in DC and and, you know, try to meet them on the
37:16
ground when they're home. But those state lawmakers are
37:19
much more accessible. They are much a much easier, I
37:23
wouldn't say easier, but they're it's more possible to impact
37:26
them than it then it would ever be with a member of Congress.
37:30
And they have the ability, I think, to really cut be on the
37:34
cutting edge of policy for Bitcoin.
37:36
They can do things like Bitcoin rights, they can do things like
37:38
strategic Bitcoin reserve legislation and they don't have
37:41
to worry about their career falling apart.
37:43
You know, we're here in the Senate.
37:44
This is a pinnacle of sort of political career for a lot of
37:47
these folks here in this building.
37:48
And so they don't want to mess that up, right to state
37:51
lawmakers, they're just starting out.
37:53
It's all fresh, it's all new. They're willing to try things
37:55
out, they're willing to experiment.
37:56
They don't have the cameras and the lights on them.
37:58
So they're willing to get away with a little bit more of a of a
38:00
rough path towards where they want to go.
38:02
So I do encourage people strongly to to reach out to
38:05
their lawmakers and to engage them, especially at the state
38:09
level and to also show up at their events, you know, donate
38:11
to these lawmakers too. They pay a lot of attention to
38:13
people that donate to them. And we all know that.
38:15
So support their campaigns, especially if they're pro
38:18
Bitcoin and give them more ability to be more effective for
38:21
Bitcoin in the long run. So I certainly believe that's
38:25
that's probably one of the most important things that people
38:27
could do is just that direct engagement with their lawmakers.
38:30
Reach out and it actually works. That's what we do.
38:33
Our whole entire organization. It's so she actually is built
38:35
around that, that that thesis of engage lawmakers at the state
38:39
level, certainly the federal level as well.
38:41
Have conversations with them, educate them on Bitcoin and
38:43
Bitcoin mining, the value of it, how Bitcoin mining can balance
38:46
the grid, how Bitcoin itself, the asset can create freedom for
38:49
individuals. And then once they like Bitcoin
38:51
as much as you and me, then turn around and say, hey, well, for
38:55
her Satoshi action, it's look at these model policies that we've
38:57
been able to put together. Not only have we able to pass
38:59
them in Montana, Louisiana, Arkansas and Oklahoma, but
39:04
there's other states considering this.
39:05
Look at Utah, Utah's a leader on policy.
39:07
They can do this if there can, if they can do this, any state
39:10
can do it. So if, if you're not Satoshi
39:11
action, if you're not working with us, you can point people to
39:14
us as well and say, hey, this is a team that you should speak to
39:16
who can make a big difference and can come in and act as a
39:18
resource. You know, a lot of lawmakers at
39:20
the state level, the the big disadvantage they have is they
39:24
don't have the resources, they don't have the income.
39:27
Some of them don't even have a single staff member that's
39:29
helping them. Imagine trying to cover all the
39:31
important issues to a state and you don't even have one person
39:34
helping you. So what we can do is we can come
39:36
in as the issue expert. And that's what the lawmaker in
39:38
Utah said. It's what the lawmaker in New
39:40
Hampshire said when we jumped on a spaces.
39:42
And it's even with the lawmaker in Texas said when we jumped on
39:44
a spaces is we can come in as the issue expert and in on very,
39:48
even very simple things like the definition of Bitcoin, which you
39:52
know, you would think that that would be easy to do.
39:54
But if you say a decentralized currency based off the white
39:57
paper, I mean, you buying start including other things in there
40:00
as well, like Bitcoin Cash and other variations of Bitcoin.
40:02
So even something as simple as that coming in to help them and
40:06
make sure that they don't make any mistakes on something.
40:08
It's so just so average as a definition can help them avoid
40:12
political miscalculations and help ensure that the bill passes
40:15
into law. And then again, they turn around
40:17
and they go, well, you helped us once, we want you to help us
40:19
again. And we've been seeing that all
40:21
across the country. We're very fortunate to be in
40:23
the position we are in today. Senator Lummis, we're getting to
40:26
the top of the interview. I appreciate that, Dennis.
40:29
And you guys, You too. You too on the federal level.
40:32
Senator Lummis, Dennis Porter, on the state level, you guys are
40:36
the vanguard of the strategic Bitcoin reserve initiative in
40:39
the United States. Senator Lummis, last question.
40:42
You've claimed that Bitcoin can be used to cut the national debt
40:46
by half. I believe the year was 2045,
40:50
correct? Correct, Correct.
40:51
Could you? What is the process?
40:53
Could you break that down? Yeah.
40:55
What? OK.
40:56
Let's say that we did convert some of our existing assets into
41:01
Bitcoin 200,000 a year for five years, hold for 20 years.
41:08
Over that time, we've modeled that.
41:10
We know that since inception Bitcoin has grown about 55% per
41:16
year, but that number is not infinitely sustainable.
41:20
It's going to start declining. So on a decline curve, it'll go
41:24
to 453525 and we've projected it out.
41:30
So in 20 years, we believe that a $1 million reserve 20 years
41:38
from now would be roughly half of our current national debt.
41:42
Now, RFK used the same modeling and projected his proposal out
41:49
to where our existing national debt would be gone, but it was a
41:53
much bigger number. So what we have to hope for and
41:56
work for here at the federal level is reducing our spending,
42:02
seeing where President Trump's tariff proposals get us in terms
42:07
of our ability to collect revenue.
42:11
So lower spending, higher revenue, and a reserve that can
42:17
be used by the kids that my generation put in debt.
42:23
I'm a bitcoiner, but I'm also a baby boomer who has been
42:28
participating in the federal government since 2009.
42:31
When I came here, we had just turned from a national debt of 9
42:36
trillion to 10 trillion, and today we're like at $36
42:40
trillion. I'm embarrassed as a member of
42:45
the Baby boom generation with what I've done to you and you
42:49
and my grandchildren. So when I look at a strategic
42:53
Bitcoin reserve and its ability to grow and help me right the
42:59
wrongs that my generation did by driving us into this terrible
43:05
debt, it's the only vehicle I see that can have that
43:10
consequential an effect. And that's why when I saw this
43:14
come along, I was like, thank you, God for bringing a lot.
43:21
I've been, I've been toiling in politics since I was 23 years
43:25
old. I was a state legislator in
43:27
Wyoming when I was 24 years old. I'm 70 years old now.
43:34
All that time I've been looking for this bill, I'm not kidding.
43:39
The Strategic Bitcoin Reserve can help people in my generation
43:44
right the wrongs that we did to your generation and generations
43:50
to follow, and I feel deeply committed to making that happen.
43:55
Extremely powerful, Senator Lummus.
43:57
It's been an honor. Thank you, Nico.