Latest / Red Couch Theology / Learning to Hear God in the Hard Seasons

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Learning to Hear God in the Hard Seasons · Red Couch Theology

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Well, hello, hello and welcome everyone to the Red Couch
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Theology podcast. Hey, this week we have two
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different guests. We have Angela Dunn, who taught
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Alpha class last night, and we have Sean Switzer who brought
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the message on Sunday. And we're talking about two main
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topics that actually tie interestingly together.
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First, Sean talked about those times when God prunes us and we
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we miss the old branches. And then we're also going to
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talk about how do we know when we're hearing from God's voice?
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Like what does his voice sound like?
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And how do we know it's him talking to us?
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And interestingly, there's a connection to those two things.
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And they both tell some incredible stories about how
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God's worked in their lives in both of those areas.
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So let's dive right in. Hello everyone, welcome to a Red
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Couch Theology podcast. We're hoping that this actually
0:45
works because we had some last minute changes and we weren't
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able to meet in person and all of our normal technology wasn't
0:53
able to be used. And so we spun up this remote
0:55
session just for you guys because that's how much we care.
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Shout out to Aaron Aaron for doing this in a couple of
1:02
minutes and shout out to Teresa helping us on this.
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Side, Absolutely. Well, you guys are well lit, but
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I have a higher quality camera, so perfect.
1:12
Which you guys can vote in this comment section below.
1:15
Which one of those is better? It's us.
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Yeah. So this week on the show we're
1:22
extra doing double duty because when we had a guest preacher and
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normally Alex and I can kind of just ebb and flow between Alpha
1:29
and sermon stuff just the two of us because we are but in both of
1:32
those environments. Well now we had a Sean, you
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preached the message on Sunday and we have some questions that
1:37
came in from that and then Angela, you and Angela, you
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taught Alpha last night. So we have some questions
1:42
related to that and I am just going to try and be the ping
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pong in the middle of the monkey in the middle to pass things
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around. So, but in light of the fact
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that all of our technology didn't work, I have to get up
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my, my notes. So while we're while you're
1:57
waiting for me to ask the actual questions that came in from our
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community, I would love for a two or three minute overview
2:06
from each of you on the main topics that you guys covered.
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So Sean, maybe starting with you, where'd you go on Sunday?
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What was that 30,000 foot view of the sermon?
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And then once you're done, Angela, you could just share
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with it what was the topic from Alpha, just in case people
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weren't at either of those environments.
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Sure, right. So on Sunday we continued on in
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our study of the book of John and we are in the middle of this
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upper room discourse. My section was in John 15.
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So if we look at that, it is Jesus opening and opening the
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the section with saying I am the vine.
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I am the vine and my father is the gardener.
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He cuts away any branches that are not bearing fruit, but those
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branches that are bearing fruit he will prune so that more good
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and beautiful fruit can continue to grow in that space.
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And so at a very high level, I focus not only on Jesus being
3:06
divine, but personally, how this text was impacting me in this
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moment and season of my life was understanding and wrapping my
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head and my heart around that pruning process.
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Because I have to get represented an opportunity for
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me to wrestle with some of those things that had been pruned for
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my life and through the beautiful invitation of this
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text, to reframe what that can look like and feel like.
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Meaning it's not only lost, but that God is good.
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And it's by way of intentional care of taking some things that
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might have borne fruit at one point in our, our lives or one
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season of our lives and making space for something else,
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something new, something beautiful to, to grow there.
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And so I shared a little bit about my, my story, some things
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that had been pruned from my life and the temptation to go
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back and pick some of those branches up.
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And, you know, effectively, for lack of better term, for a lack
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of a better term, pretended that it was still good and growing
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and vibrant, even though it wasn't connected to the vine,
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even though it wasn't connected to any sort of true life, life
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source that was going to allow it to bear fruit.
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So this recognition that we can't bear fruit on our own,
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this recognition that it's good and intentional care and just
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kind of that that reframing for myself and and maybe for any
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others that it resonated with. Yeah, that was kind of the high
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level, yeah. I have to say, like one of my
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the thing that I've heard so much about from other people,
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but also that stuck with me was when you held up the branch and
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then you talked about painting green on it.
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It was such a beautiful visual that it just, I feel like it
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really helps anchor me when I, when I do start to go, should I
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be letting this go or should I be keeping it?
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What is the Lord asking? And that visual comes up.
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It was really powerful, this. Representation of like, can I do
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something to make this appear as if it's still good and and pure
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and living? And can I manufacture fruit on
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my own? And I think that we all know the
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answer to that is no, but that's easier said than done at times.
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One other thing that was was paramount for me in the in the
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process of this is just recognizing that we when we
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remain in Jesus as the vine and when we remain in his love, that
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is where we find our joy. And sometimes I think that we
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pick up the branches because we're we're missing something or
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we're missing the the comfort or the feeling or the joy that it
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once produced. And in doing so, we forget that
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actually our joy is complete when we remain in Jesus, when,
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when we remain in his love. And that was made clear to me in
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beautiful ways through through Jesus and the Holy Spirit using
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my community to care for me that way.
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Yeah. Oh, before you dive into your
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overview, Angela, you know, you made a comment that, you know,
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on Sunday, John, that I made and that Alex made several times
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about like, isn't it a horrible like when you're a preacher, you
6:17
get assigned these passages that are often times for you.
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But I it got me to actually thinking.
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And maybe this is maybe a tip for some of those who are
6:26
listening to the show, because I do think when a person, a
6:29
follower of Jesus, steps into the stream of his Kingdom and
6:34
says, Lord, I wanna be used to bring your Kingdom.
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Like when you say, yes, I will preach is the scenario in this
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case. Those are the times when God's
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like we're doing some serious work here.
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So maybe the tip slash warning for our our listeners is if
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you're in a place where you feel like your faith is stagnated or
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you really do want to grow, maybe it's a sign that there's a
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Kingdom sized invitation that God has for you that he's going
7:04
to leverage to help you grow and accomplish the work for his
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Kingdom at the same time. So anyway, it's just a side note
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that I was thinking about because I know that similar to
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what you expressed on on Sunday, Sean, that God has transformed
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me the most through my ministry, not the church.
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You know, it's like because yeah.
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Anyway, just as a side note, yeah.
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That's so great. Yeah, Angela, give us an
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overview. What took place at Alpha.
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Yeah. So last night we were talking
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about basically how do we hear from God and what does that look
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like? And so Nikki Gumbel, I love him
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and his accent and he outlined 5 different ways you basically
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said at any point in time in your life, depending on the
7:45
situation, God can use all five. He can.
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He might hone in on just one or one or two, but basically it's
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Scripture is the compelling Holy Spirit and I love that
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compelling it is. I'm going to have to use my
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CHEAT SHEET. It is the council of the Saints.
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So wisdom from your community within the church.
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Also through our common sense and reasoning, like we don't
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just cut that out just because Jesus Spirit comes to live in
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US. Like reasoning is important.
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And then finally, it's circumstantial signs.
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And then I just talked about different ways that people can
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kind of try to tune their ear and maybe better understand how
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to hear God. One of them came from somebody
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at my table who's this beautiful lady.
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And she said somebody once told her, like, listen for the voice
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underneath the surface. And that really gave me this
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image that I kind of painted last night of like when a giant
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thunderstorm rolls in and it's over a pond and the pond is
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still in tranquil, but that thunderstorm starts and the
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raindrops hit and they're heavy and you see the surface of the
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pond and those those drops in the water bouncing everywhere
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and it's turbulent. But if you go down a just a few
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inches in the water, it's still. And so that that's what that
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communicates to me. And then also, I'm trying to
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think of it like, you know, Dallas Willard talks about, you
9:13
know, presenting a question to God and then kind of releasing
9:16
the question to him. And then going about your day
9:19
doing daily tasks that don't really take a ton of attention,
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but also keep you just distracted enough that you're
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not so focused on the question that you're like, I got a note
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right now and the anxiety comes up.
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So it's kind of creating that space.
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And then the third way was honestly one of my favorites as
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well. And it's Jamie Winship.
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How he talks about hearing from God is like the free flow of
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thoughts in your mind when you fix your eyes on Jesus and ask
9:49
him a question. And so often what we do is when
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we ask God a question and then certain thoughts come to our
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mind, we might dismiss them and just say, you know, no, that's
10:00
me or why am I thinking of the color orange?
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You know what I mean? But but if we will not dismiss
10:06
them and just maybe hold them and acknowledge them and then
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just ask God, like, what else do I need to know?
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And often times if you're playing with somebody else, it
10:15
means something significant to them that if you'll just step
10:18
out in that little tiny baby step and say say it, they
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usually will confirm. So, yeah.
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Yeah. And you know what's striking to
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me, I obviously wasn't in alpha last night, but so much of what
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you just covered we've been talking about in South students
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and things of that nature going back to Sunday.
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There's like quite the intersection of some of the
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things that you just mentioned in the way that God was speaking
10:42
directly to me through the preparation process, not only
10:46
for this, you know, time of teaching, but for what he was
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wanting to make readily apparent in my life so that I could begin
10:57
to sort through some of those things.
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And so it was through through his word, this passage that I
11:02
was assigned, it was through my community and other individuals.
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It was through sitting and listening and asking questions
11:08
and recognizing the difference between, OK, this is a thought
11:12
that is well known and understood and comfortable and
11:15
familiar to myself. Like this is my typical way of
11:19
thinking and rationality and logic.
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And then there's something completely and uniquely
11:24
different that is also biblical and true and being supported by
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the other people who are speaking into my life being, you
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know, being attuned to like, OK, what am I comfortable sitting
11:35
in? And what is the Holy Spirit
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saying to me right now? Amen.
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And so there. Yeah.
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As you were talking, I was like, oh, yeah.
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I was experiencing all four, you know?
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Yeah. So.
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Yeah. So beautiful, So.
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I'm gonna, you know, just because of the nature of the two
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different environments where you 2 communicated this week, I'm
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gonna actually hone in and ask, well, because, well, first I'll
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say I highly recommend if you didn't get a chance to, to
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listen to Sean's message, you actually can.
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That's already up. So rather than having him retell
12:04
his personal story, and I won't do that to him because he
12:07
already bore his soul on stage in front of everyone and for all
12:10
of the Internet to see. So I would encourage you to go
12:13
back and hear some of his story there because this was a very
12:17
personal message. And he the message was really,
12:21
it touched him and it was a story that he felt like he was
12:23
living really in the moment. So maybe we'll get back to that
12:26
in future questions. But Alpha was not recorded.
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And so I was hoping that maybe Angela, you would share.
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Would you be willing to Share your story, the Christmas
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Christmas story? Because the rest of our audience
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from Sunday morning didn't get a chance to hear that story.
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And it's just an illustration that she used last night.
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It was just really tangible and us and a little sign of hearing
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from God. Would you mind telling us that
12:52
story? Of course, so this is about 20
12:56
years ago, and I was still learning that beginning stage of
13:00
learning to distinguish what Shawn is saying, like what's my
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voice? What's my critical voice, What
13:07
is God? And so I was trying to learn to
13:09
hear his voice and taking these little baby steps.
13:11
And I arrived at church one day and a woman after the service
13:15
had asked me, hey, would you pray for me?
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And first of all, that felt uncomfortable for me to be
13:21
praying for her. But then she was like, I go,
13:24
well, what can I pray for you about?
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And she just said, I'd rather not say so only, you know, was I
13:31
on the spot to pray for somebody out loud.
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But also I didn't know what she needed.
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And so I, I just went to God and was like, OK, I'm like, can you
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just, can you help me know what she needs?
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And can you pray through me because I'm on the line here.
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And so I just started with like, you know, hey, Lord, would you
13:51
bless this lady and just kind of normal things.
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And as we kind of finished a pretty brief prayer, all of a
13:57
sudden I kind of as an afterthought to the prayer said.
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And by the way, you know, I feel like God is saying that your
14:05
Christmas is all going to be taken care of.
14:07
Like he's going to take care of Christmas for you and your
14:09
family. And then in like outside, I was
14:11
trying to remain calm and inside I was freaking out because I'm
14:15
like, I just basically promised something.
14:17
She's going to think I'm crazy, see what is happening.
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But I felt this overwhelming, compelling, like drive it, and
14:26
it just came out and I'm thinking, oh, now I'm in a
14:29
pickle. And you know what?
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She was very gracious. She hugged me.
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She thanked me for praying. She didn't say anything else.
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And then I didn't see her for several months.
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And then when one day I showed back up at church and she came
14:41
up to me and just said, you know, I've been super busy, but
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I'm finally want to tell you, you have no idea.
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When I came up for prayer that day, actually, I was incredibly
14:53
burdened and overly worried and panicked about how I would
14:58
provide Christmas for my children because my husband and
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I just separated and divorced. And she's like, it has been
15:04
incredibly hard. And I had no idea how that was
15:07
going to be provided. And and then she went on to say
15:10
basically, and out of the blue, like somebody she didn't know,
15:15
it just gave her the surprise gift of cash or check or
15:19
something like that. And it was enough for her to
15:22
take her kids to the mountains for Christmas and for for her to
15:26
buy gifts that were very meaningful to them and something
15:29
that was really spot on. And so she was just overjoyed at
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just how God was so gracious and how he also knew what she
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needed, even though she didn't tell me.
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And then I was blown away because here I am thinking
15:44
really about myself. This is awkward, This is
15:46
uncomfortable. Like, is God, are you going to
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speak? And he did.
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He showed up and he was just so, so gracious and kind.
15:53
So anyway, it was wonderful. It was a good baby step to go.
15:58
OK, he's trustworthy. I can, I can.
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It's. Amazing, amazing story.
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Yeah. And I know it it, it touched me
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when I heard it at Alpha and I thought maybe the rest of the
16:08
community should hear that story.
16:09
Sorry, You'll you probably would have wanted to use that as a
16:12
sermon illustration in the future.
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And now No A lot. Of others.
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So I keep taking baby steps. Nice.
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Anyway, that's the risk of being on podcast.
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You're like, don't let me. I don't want to use all my
16:24
sermon illustration stories, you know.
16:25
All right, so let's get into some of the questions from our
16:28
community, if that's OK. That's another question from
16:31
last week. My goodness.
16:32
All right, here you go. This is for this week.
16:36
Hey, guys, I love love Sunday sermon by Sean.
16:39
It really hit me. I felt a strong connection to
16:42
it. Interesting.
16:44
Interestingly, somewhat related to the sermon and somewhat not,
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I've been wrestling with Luke 9 verse 62.
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This verse seems simple, but ultimately it's a little bit
16:55
scary. Sometimes, as Sean mentioned, we
16:58
look back and even hold up old fruit.
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There are times in my journey where I have longed for what I
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had once had, but it's fruit from times in my walk before and
17:08
even times when I think things are particularly hard where I
17:12
have longed for some of these happiness or pleasures or slash
17:16
fruits so of my old life. And then they they say was
17:20
Sean's sermon in mind? And then and this verse, and
17:23
we'll get to that verse in just a moment.
17:25
What would you interpret looking back to be?
17:28
What would you recommend to the believer whose heart wants to
17:31
follow God, but sometimes does indeed, when things get hard,
17:35
look back or even slip back? So that passage in Luke Chapter
17:42
9, verse 62, Oh wow, my new computer doesn't have my Bible
17:45
software on it is it's in reference to a person putting
17:49
their hands to the plow and they look back, they're not worthy of
17:53
me or something along those lines.
17:54
Let me pull it up, can you? I can read it.
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Yeah, Jesus replied. No one who puts a hand to the
18:01
plow and looks back is fit for service in the Kingdom of God.
18:05
Yeah, this section, I think it's it's good to know that this
18:09
section kind of actually goes back all the way to verse 57
18:14
where Jesus is saying, as they were walking along the road, a
18:16
man said to him, I will follow you wherever you go.
18:19
Jesus replied, foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the
18:22
Son of man has no place to lay his head.
18:24
He said to another man, follow me.
18:26
But he replied, Lord, first let me go and bury my father.
18:30
Jesus said to him, let the dead bury their own dead, but you go
18:34
and proclaim the Kingdom of God. Still another said, I will
18:37
follow you Lord, but first let me go back and say goodbye to my
18:40
family. And Jesus replied, No one who
18:43
puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in
18:45
the Kingdom. So.
18:48
In the context of this question, it it's some of what Sean was
18:51
talking about where and I think the illustration you actually
18:55
described, Sean was like a lot of the branches you were holding
18:58
up or good things and beautiful things, but they were, they were
19:03
past harvests maybe, and they were then God proves them.
19:07
And then and then there's a grief and a letting go and all
19:11
of this stuff. This question is that and maybe
19:15
some of our old ways of life that were maybe less healthy or
19:20
addictions or whatever. I'm just sensing maybe there's
19:22
some of that in this question too.
19:24
Yeah, I think that there is a little bit of a distinction
19:28
between, you know, the pruning of branches that bore fruit by
19:33
God, our good gardener who's intentionally caring for us as
19:37
we are connected to the vine and continuing to grow.
19:40
Versus what I see here in this passage in Luke where it's like
19:44
the invitation, the initial invitation to follow, to follow
19:48
Jesus and kind of the response of like, yeah, but like, let me
19:52
go put a bow on and wrap up some other things of like my old
19:57
life. So that I think the distinction
19:59
there, it makes a lot of sense in our minds of like, OK, this
20:02
thing that is no longer part of our lives, but it's what's being
20:05
kind of pruned while we are connected to the vine.
20:07
Versus like this question of the old becoming new?
20:12
And and wanting to retain the oldness may not live in the new
20:16
creation that we are as we follow Jesus as his of
20:19
princesses. So maybe that's the the initial
20:22
distinction that I see there. Yeah.
20:24
Yeah, well, I agree. And also I see it as with that,
20:30
that initial invitation, it's like, hey, guys, the time is at
20:34
hand that I see it as the urgency of, of him saying, you
20:39
know, yes, those things are important, but this is the
20:42
primary, most significant thing and you're being extended an
20:47
actual invitation that you need to respond to.
20:50
So there's an urgency there of like, but let me go and bury my
20:54
dead or let me go do this. No, no, no, no, no, that urgency
20:59
is no, the time is at hand. The decision is now.
21:02
Like if if you're going to do it, you're doing it now.
21:05
And so choose the better thing. So that's yeah, I, I think that
21:08
kind of piggybacks on what Sean is saying of being able to
21:11
distinguish an initial versus somebody who is not connected at
21:16
all and maybe even not hasn't, hasn't even experienced the
21:20
invitation, but they're going anyway.
21:23
I. Think.
21:24
Where I understand the wrestling and kind of, you know, bringing
21:27
my, you know, some of the points that I was making in this
21:30
passage together is I don't know how you guys feel about this.
21:35
Like wouldn't it be just so easy if the old is gone and the new
21:39
is here? But in our lived experiences,
21:42
it's like, I'm not like this completely new being that has no
21:46
memory of these things that like once held a spot in my life or
21:51
I, it doesn't like in this new creation, I still have these
21:56
temptations or these things to do and these things that I'm
22:00
drawn to. And so then it's like, OK, we'll
22:03
enter into the, the mix of concept of like our growth and
22:07
our transformation and the time that it takes and remaining in
22:10
the vine. And if we remain in his love,
22:13
then then I actually tend to want to become more holy versus
22:21
like if I'm trying to earn the love by doing XY and Z, then,
22:27
you know, you tend to like also have your minds scattered in, in
22:29
other places in my experience. And so, yeah, I don't know.
22:33
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that that's all super
22:37
helpful and and helpful distinction and partly because
22:41
and I I need to say this cautiously because I don't want
22:44
to be misunderstood and maybe I'll just call out where the
22:47
misunderstanding it's stand standing could happen most
22:51
things in life. God doesn't just cut off in the
22:56
sense that it's not like let's use the plant illustration.
23:00
A plant isn't growing out of its side a chainsaw that's that's
23:06
that's contrary to its existence or contrary to its design.
23:11
A plant grows branches and so it's not like he's cutting off
23:16
foreigns objects from you when he's pruning he's he's cutting
23:22
off things that are no longer helpful or that are draining the
23:26
resources that the rest of the plant needs to continue to grow
23:28
and thrive. And so, for example, even an
23:34
addiction to to something, let's say someone struggles with
23:40
alcohol or something like that, which this question asker didn't
23:43
mention or anything. So I'm, I'm I'm not saying that
23:46
the whoever sent this question, it is talking about anything
23:49
like that. The God might prune that from
23:53
their lives like an over abuse of alcohol, but the the human
23:58
reason why they were driven to that thing is still a part of
24:02
them and is pointing to a need that should not be cut off.
24:06
So like they need friendship or intimacy with other human beings
24:13
and with the heart of God. And when they don't have that,
24:16
they turn to the substance to fill fill that void.
24:20
So he's not saying cut off your need for people and for God.
24:24
He's saying this particular expression of how that part of
24:27
being a human is neat. Is it being expressed?
24:31
Is being cut off and being replaced with a better source of
24:34
nutrients in life? So interestingly, everything he
24:38
prunes is like all, even our sin that he does prune.
24:42
Some of the things he prunes are good past things.
24:45
Some of the things he prunes are genuinely sinful things, but
24:48
it's distorted. Branch in a way of branches that
24:51
bear no life. Yes and but even in that branch
24:56
is deposited a hint at what could have been life giving,
25:00
which is why we would turn to some distorted thing.
25:03
So sin itself is usually rooted in something good and beautiful
25:07
the God designed that we have twisted in our misunderstanding
25:11
of how it could be expressed. So to get back to the Luke
25:15
passage, could you read that one more time for us?
25:18
Just just the section he mentioned verse 60 something
25:21
right or whatever. Yeah, Verse. 62 just replied, No
25:24
one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for
25:28
service and the Kingdom of God. Yeah.
25:30
So there's AI think the things you all you both have already
25:34
shared are absolutely relevant. There's a context here that's
25:37
really important that Sean, I think you touched on, Angela,
25:40
you agreed with. But I also want to just call out
25:42
there's there's a a rabbinic literary device I think at play
25:47
here that Jesus uses several times in his teaching.
25:51
And as a modern reader, we freak out.
25:53
I'll tell you another example. When Jesus uses this rabbinic
25:56
model, if you don't hate your mother and father compared to
25:59
me, you're not worthy of me. He doesn't literally mean from
26:03
this day forward you shall despise your your you know your
26:08
parents, your your actual mother and father.
26:11
It's a way of stating something strongly by using an extreme to
26:16
use hyperbole to illustrate the significance of the statement he
26:21
says elsewhere, love your neighbor as yourself.
26:23
That includes and then uses up that includes your mother and
26:26
father. It's like just because they're
26:28
your mother and father, you hate them and but I'm supposed to
26:30
love a stranger like obviously not, but he says you need to
26:35
prioritize the things of the Kingdom 1st and then other
26:40
relationships. Love the Lord your God with all
26:42
your heart, soul, mind straight 1st and and the neighbor as
26:45
yourself. And then in this context, in
26:47
this plow section, it's like, don't start a journey of faith
26:52
and a working in in the Kingdom of God, and then look back to
26:56
the things of the world that's super dangerous to you.
26:59
And it's it means that you're not all in.
27:02
That's a big, big red flag. That's his way of saying is like
27:05
use big red flag language or something that that might be how
27:09
we'd say it as a modern communicator or for Jesus, he he
27:12
just falls back on a very normal rabbinic thing to make it sound
27:15
really extreme. And we freak out like I'm going
27:18
to hell because I looked over my shoulder.
27:21
That's not what he's saying. What he's saying is stay the
27:24
course. It's a beautiful thing forward.
27:27
It is not a beautiful thing past and you, let's be honest, we
27:30
know this. If we're followers of Jesus, our
27:33
old way of life isn't life giving, actually.
27:36
And there's parts of it, they were really delightful and
27:39
pleasurable, especially in the middle of pain.
27:42
But if we look back at our old selves, was it actually truly
27:46
life giving? And the chances are most people
27:49
out there would understand, would say, yeah, it wasn't truly
27:52
life giving. Yeah.
27:54
It might have instant results in the moment, but it's not bearing
27:58
life, you know? Yeah, yeah.
28:00
Yeah. So I think that this actually
28:06
could tie pretty beautifully into the alpha conversation
28:12
because how do we know? How do we know whether we've
28:17
looked back and that was bad? How do we know all of those
28:21
sorts of things? And I think part of the way we
28:24
know is by cultivating A conversational relationship with
28:27
the living God and hearing his voice.
28:29
So can either of you think of a moment in your life where beyond
28:34
the one that you preached about Sean, where you were looking
28:38
back at anything past a past pattern, a past sin or whatever
28:43
maybe, And you're just like, oh man, it life was so much easier
28:46
when I had that in my life. And I the way forward in the way
28:49
of Jesus seems so arduous and I'm not making enough for all
28:52
that kind of stuff. And what did God do to
28:55
communicate this invitation to stay the course?
28:59
No. I'll I'll refer to you for a
29:01
moment. You.
29:02
Know, I think the thing that comes to my mind is I remember,
29:06
I think at least the three of us know that I went through like a
29:09
decade period of chronic illness and very unexpected, very
29:13
unplanned. And it, I felt like I lost a
29:17
large portion of my life and just being able to function.
29:20
But during that time, because I was so dependent on the vine and
29:26
sometimes not even realizing it, just to get through a moment or
29:30
a minute or a day, I, I had this sweetness with God during some
29:37
of those years that was so incredibly delightful.
29:41
It didn't fix everything, but it helped me get through that
29:44
season. But then once I was through that
29:46
season and my health returned and things got kind of figured
29:51
out, I had this overwhelming guilt and I think shame that AI
29:57
wasn't pursuing God like I was before, nor did I feel like he
30:02
was speaking as loudly, as clearly as, you know, all of
30:06
those things. And at the same time, I was
30:09
trying to kind of find a new way of engaging with him in health
30:14
because there is a difference there.
30:16
And so that's what it made me think of.
30:18
And part of the way that he kind of invited me out into, onto a
30:24
new path with him there, even though it felt very unfamiliar,
30:29
was not just my community speaking into me, you know,
30:33
friends, counselors, all of that.
30:35
But also by giving me this image of me sitting at a table by
30:40
myself and, and him walking in the room and saying, I see that
30:47
you have all, all of these other people you'd like to invite,
30:50
you'd like to invite Shane to sit here on your right.
30:52
You'd like to invite guilt to sit on your left.
30:55
You, you know, all those feelings.
30:57
And he said, and you're trying to get them to leave before I
31:02
show up, right? And he's like, and you're also
31:05
trying to they won't leave and you can't AKA fix it before I
31:10
show up. Then you're trying to hide them.
31:12
And so and, and in this, at this point, he just invited me.
31:16
He said, what would it be like for you to just allow me to come
31:21
and sit at the table with all of you?
31:25
And that was the first step in me realizing, A, I'm not alone.
31:31
But B, he wants me to bring all of these different people, so to
31:37
speak, parts of myself and not fix them before I come, not hide
31:42
them and not even have the answer or any inkling of the
31:46
answer, but just to allow him to come and be present and tend to
31:52
me in the midst of it. Yeah.
31:53
Such an important kind of realization and invitation of
31:57
like that God loves us, cares for us, knows us, sees us like,
32:02
like this thing that we do where we feel like we've somehow like
32:05
held something back or in secret from God.
32:09
I think it is laughable, but also like we do it all the time,
32:12
myself included. Or it's like, OK, well, once I
32:15
get this sorted out, then I can return to you.
32:18
Or once I, once I work out enough in my own house, then
32:22
I'll go to the gym, you know, So it's like, no, that's what
32:27
that's there for, to go and, and to grow and to be strengthened
32:31
in these areas. Like we we think that we have to
32:34
do it on our own, at least to a certain extent, before we can
32:38
then invite and engage God in. Like I have to, I want to be, I
32:41
know that I'm broken, but I can't be this.
32:43
Broken. Yeah, when I.
32:45
Go to to like sit with God in that and receive his healing and
32:50
his restoration and his love in the midst of that thing that I'm
32:54
wrestling with so. Yeah.
32:57
To answer your question, Aaron, I think for me, one of the
33:00
things that has been hard over the course of life is like
33:04
relationships, like in the past, someone that I might have like
33:10
been dating and in a relationship with or even
33:13
friendships. I'm highly relational, but then
33:15
there are moments and times where you know, recognize, like
33:20
this isn't edifying. This isn't a good and healthy
33:22
thing. If anything, it pulls me away
33:25
from the work of the plow and the Kingdom.
33:28
But then I think listening to God's voice, notice this pattern
33:32
of like, if I'm trying to justify something to myself or
33:35
to others, like that's a pretty good clear indicator in the
33:39
moment of like, oh, why am I like defending this thing?
33:43
Why am I actually, why am I seeing, you know, a verse that
33:47
like hits me and kind of calls attention to that?
33:51
And my immediate response is like, OK, how can I, like, think
33:54
my thing, think my way logically or rationally around that?
33:57
Or can I find a different verse that might like speak to it from
34:00
a different point of view? It's like whenever I'm starting
34:02
to do that, then it's like, OK, this is pretty clear indication
34:05
of the spirit is like poking and prodding at something.
34:08
Yeah. So I don't know.
34:10
That was something that came to my mind when it's.
34:13
Good. Yeah, yeah, I those are all I
34:16
think I think it's really important.
34:18
We talked quite a bit about this and Alpha that like, yes, the
34:21
story, for example, that Angela told about, you know, Christmas
34:25
being taken care of, that feels like big and supernatural.
34:29
But for you, Angela, the way you describe it was like it just, it
34:33
was a little bit of an almost an accident.
34:35
It slipped out of your bow and then you freaked out.
34:37
It didn't sound like it felt in the moment like this crazy
34:42
miraculous voice from heaven spoke and whispered in in your
34:45
ear and you had this tons of confidence.
34:48
You was kind of much. Later.
34:50
Yeah, you. Trusted and and and responded
34:54
and then later on it was confirmed as being powerful
34:57
miraculous but hearing God's voice is feels less supernatural
35:02
than it sounds like it should feel and I like some of the
35:05
functions things Sean said it's these nudges it's these gut
35:08
feelings it's these the common sense stuff and I have this
35:12
suspicion that God speaks like there may be a misconception
35:16
that that God only speaks to Christians if they've if they've
35:21
made these set of theological mental a sense then and the
35:25
Spirit of God dwells in them like it like the scriptures say
35:29
a Christian has the spirit of God.
35:31
That's the only time that God will ever communicate with a
35:34
human being and that's incorrect.
35:38
We know from the Scriptures that creation is declaring the glory
35:44
and the love of God every day. And if you exist in the cosmos
35:49
and you are human, the entire universe is crying out to you
35:53
the love of God. The.
35:55
Scriptures exist and can be read by a follower of Jesus, and he's
36:00
given us, He's written a moral code and the image of God on
36:05
every human. So that gut feeling is this deep
36:09
part of you, that God that is still tied to the image of God
36:13
that is calling out to you to go this direction and not this
36:17
direction. So like God is speaking to you,
36:19
even if you don't believe it, as if you're not a follower of
36:21
Jesus, He is trying. And what the difference between
36:25
a Christian and non Christian is when, when we receive the Spirit
36:29
of God, what we do is we surrender to that fact and we
36:34
tune our ears more thoroughly to the voice that's always been
36:38
shouting. Exactly.
36:41
Yeah. The next two questions are
36:43
actually from the previous week, which I wish we had Jessica here
36:47
to help us cover that because it's about Scripture and the
36:49
nature of Scripture. But thank you, Angela.
36:51
And thanks for sharing. Your story and for teaching
36:53
alpha, OK. Have fun.
36:55
Thanks guys. See ya and.
36:57
We'll just quick try and address these two last questions from
37:00
last week. I'll.
37:01
Russell will come with you. Yeah, for sure.
37:04
All right, so let me let me pull this up here.
37:08
And I I got about 10 minutes so. Why does it seem like the Old
37:13
Testament is more strict than the New Testament?
37:16
Well. Because it's focused more on
37:19
the, the laws and some of those things that then, you know, we,
37:23
we shift our. I think Angela.
37:26
Still has her. Microphone on.
37:29
That's funny. It'll probably.
37:31
Disconnect but I hear her keys. It's amazing.
37:34
I. Don't know how to do it from
37:35
here. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
37:36
It's. Fine, I don't know if you can
37:38
actually, but it sounds like it just disconnected.
37:41
Yeah, I'm seeing one of the lights flashing.
37:43
Yeah, OK, perfect. So she got far enough away.
37:45
I was like, are we going to hear this budget meeting in the
37:48
podcast? Yeah, that'd be that'd be kind
37:49
of comical. So yeah, dive into a question,
37:53
OK, I because we have to be efficient because we have to be
37:56
efficient. I'm just going to give very
37:59
pathetic answer too short of an answer.
38:01
I think one of the big factors between the Old Testament and
38:04
the New Testament is its proximity to modern language.
38:08
So the Old Testament is not only it's, it's the Old Covenant, not
38:12
just because it's been replaced by the New Covenant, it's old
38:16
because it's old. Like it's really, really
38:18
ancient. And the language, the culture
38:21
and the context is like really, really far from us.
38:26
And so even in Jesus day, it was really, really old.
38:30
We're talking most of those texts written thousands of years
38:35
prior to Jesus. So there are interpreters,
38:38
interpreters that we know that we're writing in the day of
38:41
Jesus who are struggling to interpret the historical context
38:45
of the Old Testament. So.
38:49
And Jesus also came to fulfill the law, right?
38:52
And so like, it's this is the law, which implicitly feels more
38:57
strict. It's, you know, the way in which
39:01
we and we see, you know, people then engaging with it, following
39:05
it and trying to live up to it, all of those different things
39:09
versus, you know, the new covenant in Jesus and him
39:12
fulfilling the law. I've, I think that that is just
39:14
like where we feel that difference almost immediately,
39:18
you know, even Sermon on the Mount, like calling back to you.
39:21
You've heard it said, I'm here to say now this.
39:25
And like the heartbeat behind it as well, and then the life and
39:28
the example behind it, you know, the ways and the heart behind
39:32
it. So yeah, I think that's where I
39:34
see a distinct difference between the two.
39:36
Yeah. And just on some specifics, we
39:39
don't have time to choose a specific as an example, but just
39:43
to by way of summary, like some of God tends to communicate in
39:48
the Scriptures to that generation and their cultural
39:51
context. And we know from history outside
39:55
of Scripture and from sociology outside of Scripture that
39:58
humanity has treated things like violence very differently, has
40:02
treated things like regulations very differently.
40:05
And so God condescends to the moment in order to articulate
40:09
and draw humanity forward on a journey towards His preferred
40:14
destination, which would be. Full relationship with people
40:18
like it was in the garden, but the ancient world was a wild,
40:23
wild place. And so hit in his condescension
40:25
to that language in that space. He uses illustrations from the
40:28
ancient world, uses stories. He uses similar regulation
40:31
language from the ancient world to communicate and draw that
40:34
nation forward. And it does sound very archaic
40:37
and it sounds hard for us to well.
40:39
I think a good modern day example of that is like Nathan
40:44
and I talked to our students in wildly different ways and we
40:48
would preach from the mainstage or even just the distinction
40:52
between high school and middle school.
40:54
And then that language is like ever evolving at the most rapid
40:57
pace ever. Like we see all of that, but
41:00
then like being able to communicate effectively to them
41:03
means, at least to a certain extent, meeting them where
41:06
they're at, you know, so that you can bring them to where
41:08
you're going. So I think so.
41:11
I think 1 tip to read the Old Testament is that just remember
41:15
this is highly advanced reading and don't prejudge it until you
41:19
start to understand the historical context pretty
41:22
deeply, and then feel free to start like wrestling with some
41:26
of those things. But if it sounds harsh, it's
41:28
probably because we're risk misreading it.
41:31
And we know that because the New Testament says that the fullest
41:33
expression of what God is like is the person of Jesus.
41:36
And so if the Old Testament doesn't it God doesn't sound
41:40
like Jesus, then we are misunderstanding the Old
41:42
Testament categorically. So all right, then the last
41:47
question is, if all the New Testament apostles are
41:50
considered our New Testament epistles are considered
41:53
scripture, how do we know they are reliable given that many of
41:57
them were written after Christ died by men who didn't know
42:01
Christ personally? That's mostly incorrect.
42:04
We don't know the author of every single New Testament book,
42:10
but almost the entire New Testament was written by
42:13
apostles or or by people who personally met Jesus.
42:17
I'm assuming that whoever wrote this question is, is asking
42:20
about like the Apostle Paul, who probably wrote the book of the
42:23
New Testament, may not have personally sat under the
42:26
tutelage of Jesus of Nazareth while prior to his death and
42:31
resurrection and ascension. But he met Jesus personally on
42:35
the road to Emmaus and was trained by him personally in the
42:38
wilderness for 14 years post resurrection, which sounds crazy
42:42
to us, but it's a little bit. I know that if you're not a
42:45
follower of Jesus, that feels like a get out of jail card.
42:48
That's like, that's not fair. You can't do that.
42:49
But that's what a Christian would hold to.
42:51
And I feels bad to even leave it just at that.
42:55
But then the rest of the epistles, part of one of the
42:57
reasons why they're considered Canon in the Canon of Scripture
43:00
is because it was written by an apostle or someone who had
43:03
access to an apostle. And the majority of the New
43:06
Testament was written while there were eyewitnesses who did
43:10
sit under the tutelage of Jesus, and it was publicly distributed
43:13
amongst those eyewitnesses. And in an oral culture, they
43:16
would have self corrected. They said, no, that's not what I
43:19
heard. Yeah.
43:20
And so the reliability, right, reliability of the teachings of
43:23
the the New Testament are really, really, really good.
43:26
And we could get into like the differences have struggles
43:29
around like, well, eyewitness account nowadays in the court of
43:32
law are becoming less and less valuable and stuff like that.
43:35
But the resurrection and all these sorts of things are not
43:37
like the average everyday event. Like I don't remember what I had
43:40
breakfast for breakfast yesterday, but I remember
43:43
exactly where I was on 9/11. Yeah.
43:45
Yeah, I've heard that you're similar.
43:47
Yeah. The significance of that of the
43:50
resurrection was so big that people it's locks into people's
43:54
psyche and all of those witnesses were alive to cross
43:58
check the New Testament before it was a closed Canon really
44:02
early on in the in the 1st century.
44:04
It wasn't written hundreds and hundreds of years later.
44:06
And moreover, I would also just add to that too, like
44:10
specifically, OK, this is how I remember it.
44:12
And we have different perspectives and things of that
44:15
as humans witnessing the exact same event.
44:17
There are different things stand out to us, different things and
44:20
that we recall different things that are meaningful to us
44:23
because of our frame of reference or what's most
44:24
important to the the thing that we are then communicating in
44:28
that moment. But you know, also like all of
44:31
these individuals were putting their lives at risk in order to
44:34
like tell the story that could have been checked by the
44:37
eyewitness testimony, you know, eyewitnesses during that time.
44:41
Whereas like if we're if someone were to bear like false witness
44:45
or false testimony or misremember something now that
44:49
would typically be because it actually benefits them, not like
44:53
actually like puts them at risk during that time and age where
44:57
where they were then going to be persecuted.
44:59
You know, what they were communicating, they had to have
45:02
deep conviction and, and truly really believe.
45:05
And then it's captured in in the New Testament and the epistle.
45:09
So that's just another marker of it as well that I think it's
45:12
important. Yeah.
45:13
I feel like with most questions that are submitted to the
45:15
podcast we get a chance to really treat them semi
45:19
thoroughly with 10 to 15 minutes per question in the answer.
45:22
And these two questions are so big they almost justify an
45:26
entire show in and of themselves.
45:28
I was. Going to say an entire semester
45:30
in seminary. Yeah, yeah, bars.
45:33
The sum of these topics. Yeah, so.
45:34
Here's here's what I'll say, because we do have to wrap up
45:37
the show if you're still, if you feel like our answer was just
45:42
grossly inadequate. And I agree, Yeah, resubmit the
45:46
question and we'll do our our best to address it more
45:49
thoroughly in a future episode. And if you are in Alpha class,
45:53
we're going to have a question and answer panel on Saturday,
45:57
this Saturday in our Alpha weekend experience.
46:00
And so feel free to re raise it there if you happen to have
46:02
submitted it from Alpha. So on that note, sorry about the
46:06
time crunch and the technical difficulties, but thanks for
46:09
tuning in and thanks, Sean, and thanks, Angela in the past for
46:14
joining me. All right, all right.
46:17
See ya. Thanks, John.
46:18
Bye.