Latest / Man in America Podcast / Here’s Why the CCP LOVES the Epstein Files w/ Jan Jekielek

Transcript

Here’s Why the CCP LOVES the Epstein Files w/ Jan Jekielek · Man in America Podcast

• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Man in America, a voice of reason in a world gone mad. I'm your host, Seth Hullhouse. With the recent release of the Epstein files, there has been a massive shift in the public consciousness. A lot of people that before had looked at this information as being conspiratorial, you know, far right, down a rabbit hole they weren't willing to venture into, are now understanding that there's a lot of truth to what people have been saying, whether it's talking about pizzagate or the, you know, kind of pedophilia existing at the high levels of power and much more. Now, whenever there is a massive psychological shift that happens in an event, whether it's the release of these files or say it is an attack leading up to a war, a giant scandal, an assassination, etcetera, I'm always trying to be careful to look for what are the different propaganda angles I'm seeing following this, especially from other countries or other enemies.
• 1:19
  Because when people are in a state of shock or a state of disbelief or a state where maybe their critical thinking, their frontal lobe of their brain has been bypassed, and they're being hit with these more raw human primal feelings after watching or witnessing something, those people are very susceptible to propaganda messaging. And so, in today's show, what I wanna dig into with my guest, Jania Kelleck, who is the host of the American Thought Leaders show with The Epoch Times, is I wanna dig into what I see as one of the biggest propaganda operations that's happening surrounding these Epstein files. And it is an operation that's coming out of China and Russia and a few other countries. But we're gonna be looking at China specifically, where the CCP and their state run media are using the Epstein files as an opportunity to discredit the West, to say, look how evil and sick these Western elites are. Look how corrupted this system is.
• 2:26
  You know, you're the ones that were always saying that you took the moral high road. You're policing everyone around the world. Yet, look how evil you are. Now, I'm not gonna discount the fact that, yes, there is an immense amount of evil that we're seeing represented in these pages of these Epstein files. However, I also think it's important that we don't follow into the into these simplistic thinking whereby, Oh, if this one thing is bad, the person that opposes it must be good.
• 2:55
  That will get us into a lot of trouble. Because what I'm seeing here is that the CCP is absolutely using this in that way. But the reality is, as we'll get into in today's show, the actions of the Chinese Communist Party towards its own people specifically, I would argue, are just as evil, if not far more evil, than a lot of the information that we're seeing coming out of the Epstein files. So the nation, the leadership of a Communist country that is kind of professing its moral superiority is the country that is running the world's largest organ transplant and forced organ harvesting operation that there is. Literally, potentially millions of people have been murdered for their organs, have their organs cut out as a form of execution, so they can then sell those to wealthy people around the world.
• 3:57
  And that's just the tip of the iceberg. And so what today's show is, it's a process of looking at both pictures together, saying, yes, we can acknowledge what we're seeing in the Epstein files. We can acknowledge the evil there, we can fight back against it, we can seek justice, but we also have to be aware of what's happening in other parts of the world. Because if we're not, we can see that a lot of our own population can be heavily influenced by propaganda campaigns by countries that have Epstein type activity as part of their state run operation in a very public way, and we can be very easily duped by that. And so Yan and I in today's show will be getting into a a look at what's really going on in China, and look at the organ harvesting operation there, the ins and outs, how it happened, how it grew out of the persecution that began in '99.
• 4:53
  But we're also gonna be looking at the psychology of evil, even taking a dive into the book that I've been really focused on lately, political ponderology, which Jan is very familiar with. And so we're gonna be also looking at just pathocracy and the structure of evil and what's happened in China and how China went from being a magnificent culture, you know, a couple hundred years ago, even, you know, a hundred years ago, into what it is now and how easily that can happen in countries just like America if people are not vigilant. So I hope that you, take something away from this interview. John Jan is a great guest. If you haven't seen his show, you should definitely check it out.
• 5:31
  It's called American Thought Leaders, And we'll be diving into all this, and more. So, yeah, please enjoy. Quick note before we jump in though, make sure you hit the like and the subscribe button wherever you're watching. Also, for those of you that are watching on Rumble, thank you for supporting a free speech platform, what allows me to reach the masses with this information because it's very important. Alright.
• 5:51
  Now please enjoy this discussion with Janja Kelleck. Mr. Janja Kelleck, it is such an honor to have you on the show. Thank you so much for giving us your time today.
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: Seth, thrilled to be here. Looking forward to digging deep here.
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: Me too. Me too. So before we jump into today's topic, I think most people that watch my show have probably seen your face. You are the host of the show American Thought Leaders with The Epoch Times. But why don't you give us just a brief background of yourself or your show and just to give us a little bit of context to our discussion today?
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: A 100%. You know, we live in an environment right now where a lot of media aren't really doing their job or, you know, what we would think they're supposed to be doing, which is what I call truth seeking journalism. That's classical journalism, where, you know, there's some, you believe there's some sort of reality out there and you're doing your absolute best. It's hard, it's hard, but you're doing your absolute best to try to get there. Okay, to try to get at the truth.
• 6:55
  And sometimes you might get it wrong. So you fix it, you put in a clarification, that sort of thing. That's traditional classical truth seeking journalism. A lot of what's happened today, especially over the last ten years, it's sort of exploded. There's something called activist journalism.
• 7:11
  And activist journalism is something where you basically have a certain narrative you want to create in the world because you believe that that's right and correct. You believe that's the world that you want to create in the future and you contort the reality or perhaps because you don't even believe that reality exists in some cases, right, to fit that narrative. And another name for activist journalism is of course propaganda, for those people that are familiar with it, right? It's creating kind of narratives to sort of build certain ideas into society and so forth. So, American Thought Leaders actually was started back in the day, probably, I think it's about more than six years ago now.
• 7:50
  Think we're into our seventh season. To explain, and I'm Canadian by the way, right? If you were to listen to the Canadian media talking about America, right? You would think really crazy things because essentially most of the media in Canada take the activist journalism of certain, I'll leave unnamed American media, some really prominent American media. And so it left Canadians with a really twisted view of reality because it was all sort of all around these narratives.
• 8:22
  So I started the show to just to actually just try to explain the reality of America as best as I could, of course. And a little bit because my background is focusing on China and China human rights work and so forth. Also similarly through that lens, it was a significant part of the show was the China related and especially America China relationship content. And this show, it just kind of went big really quick. And a lot of Americans ended up being viewers as well.
• 8:54
  I think like per capita, it's more Canadians, right? But Canada is a much, much smaller population. So there's more Americans. And of course, there's people from all around the world. But we cover everything from communist China to various what you would call so called culture war issues.
• 9:10
  Actually, one episode I have coming out, which I think is, what is it today, Tuesday, I think it might even be today is actually about how we're not as polarized as we thought. Like a lot of the issues, whether you're left, right, Democrat, Republican, Conservative, Liberal, we're actually kind of agreed on a lot of issues. Like one example would be, know, voter ID. Voter ID is a true what they call an eightytwenty issue. Everyone kind of think, not everyone, but the vast, vast majority of people, Republican, Democrat, whatever, really think voter ID is a good idea.
• 9:45
  Like most countries in the world require it, right? It's just we have this kind of problem here in The US which is bizarre, right? Around it. But that's just one example, right? So like we're not, you would think if you look in the media, there's this huge polarization, right?
• 9:59
  There's these, half the country believes that voter ID is crazy, it's racist, it's horrible, right? But that's not the case. That's just the narrative they're pushing. Of course, those narratives are compelling sometimes, right? And they actually convince some, I think, small portion of the population, in some cases, a larger portion, that they're true.
• 10:20
  But so what American thought leaders, and indeed, perhaps this whole forced organ harvesting issue, which, you know, I've come to you to look into, is, is as an attempt to really get at the truth of some very difficult realities.
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: And I think it's really important, and right now, especially with this re the recent release of The Epstein Files, I think that that is how you framed it. It's it's important to kind of look at these realities, right? It's like they're dark, they're hard, but we have to face them. And, you know, kind of when you mentioned the media and propaganda, and this is something that has always fascinated me, just immensely, is understanding the human mind and psychology, but also social engineering, looking at, you know, Edward Bernays, looking at the importance of propaganda in controlling a populace. And obviously, if you look at modern day China, it's a perfect example of a very, very tight wall on whatever message is being spread, and that's what's needed to contain the people there.
• 11:32
  And but if you look at even in the Western world, we're being hit with propaganda, like, second there's narratives. Now, maybe the propaganda is just, Hey, buy this bar soap because it's gonna make your skin smooth and soft. Right? That's a form of propaganda, you know, per se. Right?
• 11:51
  But we're also hit with all kinds of other propaganda. And one thing that I've been reflecting on a lot lately, which we'll be getting into with the release of these Epstein files, which I've I've kind of covered extensively, is that I'm seeing spin off propaganda narratives around these Epstein files. And
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: Of course.
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: But, you know, mean, whenever you there's always it's kind of like, it's never the action. It's the reaction. Right? And so what I'm seeing specifically is, obviously, there's a lot of people you see the TikTok videos going viral, people that are just realizing they're just coming across a lot of this information that, yeah, within some circles at the elite level, this there appears to be there's some cannibalism going on and some torture and some know, there's references to a lot of things that are very, very uncomfortable for, you know, the average person that thinks that most people are good, and maybe there's some corrupt politicians that take bribes. I mean, it's it's so much worse than that.
• 12:50
  But what I'm seeing is that I'm seeing that, specifically coming out of China and Russia, they're really using this as an opportunity to say, look how evil the Western leadership is. Look how corrupt that system is. And even China, you see them highlighting percent. You know, they're saying, oh, we've got this death penalty. The if anyone abuses a child, it's a death penalty.
• 13:15
  And so I'm even seeing that as part of a much larger campaign, even among a lot of, you know, conservative influencers, that there's this idea that, okay, the Western country the western government is is this deep state. It's so corrupt. Gosh. Look at China. Look what China's doing.
• 13:31
  You know, they're not, you know, doing all these bad things of the western governments. You know, look at Russia. Wow. It's a strong Christian nation. And so I'm seeing though that there's there's a
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: lot With of with 2% religiosity. But, let's let's continue. Let's continue. Yeah.
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And so I just you know? And and again, it's not to I think that one of the things that has happened for a lot of people, especially with this kind of Hollywood simplified ideas, like, goodbye good guy, bad guy. That you have this thing where, okay, well, this country is bad, then the country that opposes it must be good. And it's it's like, well, that's a very simplistic way of looking at things.
• 14:06
  I think that is used often as tools of social engineering. But looking at China as an example, which is what I really want to dig into today with you, of course, what we're seeing in the Epstein files is bad, but it's just one node of a bigger system, right? It wasn't only one Epstein. There's Epstein's everywhere. There's Epstein's in most countries, etcetera.
• 14:29
  But in China, there's something different. Like, in in China, there's it's almost like there's state run massive operations built on Epstein activities, specifically harvesting organs and murder and all that. And so I really want to maybe just kind of ask you a question and let you just expound upon this. Sure. When if someone has this idea that, look how evil this Western system is, Maybe China's not that bad of a country.
• 14:59
  I'm seeing these pictures of Beijing, it looks great, and they're talking about this. They've got the death penalty for child abuse. You know China far better than your average person, especially in the West. How would you respond to that? What would you tell them about what's that what China is actually like in 2026?
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: Wow. That is a big question. Well, okay. So let me, qualify one thing here for starters. I have, like, five different vantage points I wanna I wanna jump into.
• 15:31
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• 17:07
  Speaker 2: So in my book, Killed to Order, I talk about, of course, this horrible monstrous forced organ harvesting industry state run. And that's a very important part of the book, but actually a bigger piece of the book is an explanation of how the system works and how this industry is kind of a lens into truly understanding the broader system. Okay. And in a way, how this whole thing is really kind of a feature of this particular regime, Chinese Communist Party running a country and not a bug, not something that you wouldn't expect. Fact, it's something you would very much expect.
• 17:48
  And unfortunately, right? And that's why in a way, it's also why you have these mass atrocities in every single communist society that's ever existed. And, you know, this is I'm going to do in a roundabout way here. Of I'm going to dig into your question in a moment. I just want to touch on a couple of things that you mentioned earlier.
• 18:09
  One of the terrible things, when we go back to Bernays, when he wrote that famous book Propaganda, I mean, his vision was actually that you need to kind of benevolently propagandize the population, right? To kind of have them be better. It's just, it's very interesting, right? But what that whole time period created of people going through this thought process is it became kind of morally acceptable to manipulate people. It just became like messaging became like, you know, I think you mentioned the bar of soap or whatever it is, right?
• 18:45
  We're being actively manipulated in some cases through very cunning ways to buy products, right? Especially through our screens. I mean, lot of this social media that we use has been like designed to be specifically addictive to get us to view more products and buy more various kinds of products, many of which we don't even need. This is a huge and ever omnipresent problem in America. And I'll add another thing.
• 19:12
  The worst of these, of course, is TikTok. Why? Because, well, we'll see how this sale actually impacts who owns the algorithm and controls it. I have a lot of questions about that. Okay.
• 19:24
  But it's controlled by a regime which seeks us ill. It views America as its chief adversary and it seeks to subvert it, right? And millions upon millions of Americans are using a tool which is the most addictive, is pushing narratives subtly, right, with plausible deniability in some cases, in some cases very aggressively, right? To manipulate us, right? So this is, I'm saying this in the context where, but they don't allow that same technology in their own country.
• 19:59
  Okay. Like TikTok is not allowed in communist China. It's just allowed here because they know of how destructive this particular technology is on the mind. They're seeking to sow chaos and subversion and they propagandize through Douyin, their own sort of version of TikTok, right? But it's all done in this sort of, know, it's like educational videos and there's limits to how long it stays on and so forth.
• 20:25
  So, you know, what I'm trying to say is here you have, look at the situation, right? This is rife for exactly the kind of propaganda that you're just describing, right? Look at these Americans, they're so decadent. All they do is watch TikTok all the time. We'll skirt over the fact that the CCP is going to control it and And meanwhile, look in China, they're being very righteous about what content they're showing their public and so forth.
• 20:53
  So the thing you have to understand about communist regimes, and really this exploded out of Russia when the Bolsheviks took over, right, is absolute best thing, they're very good at lots of things, including mass killing, right? Very good at that through starvation or through actual killing or whatever. But something they're even better at. The number one thing they're good at is propaganda, okay? Or active measures, as it was just called in Russia, in the Soviet Union.
• 21:28
  And active measures is pushing narratives into populations that you're wanting to turn communist, that you're wanting to submerge and what that really means that you want to put under the jurisdiction of the communist party. And the communist party never sticks to its own country, by the way. The Chinese Communist Party was a creation of the Soviet Communist Party. Why? Because it seeks to rule the It sounds like to rule the world.
• 22:03
  Yes. Every Communist Party literally seeks to rule the world. And part of the reason that it does that is that it seeks any true free thought or any true civil society. It seeks to destroy it because that is actually the biggest threat to its existence and its supremacy, which is always the top priority in these. And of course, sometimes they have to fight it out amongst each other.
• 22:28
  There wasn't a lot of love after the Chinese Communist Party came into its own. It kind of gave the finger to the Soviet Communist Party and said, we're doing our own thing. You think you can kill people? We can do it better. I mean, I'm not even I know that sounds kind of ridiculous, but I'm not even kidding.
• 22:46
  And then of course you had the killing fields in Cambodia where literally anyone who had glasses, like you and I, would have just been killed because we have glasses and that would be the old regime, people who have old ideas because they know how to read and have glasses. So this led to these extreme situations. This is all, again, it's a feature, not a bug of communism. And of course I can explain in a lot of detail how that happens. And going back to this forced organ harvesting regime, it's something a guy named Matthew Robertson, who's kind of been one of these hero researchers on this issue for decades now, he calls it extractive repression.
• 23:26
  Okay, and his PhD thesis just published, I think last year or a couple of years ago. And it's just you can achieve two things, right? The eradication of a group of people or a way of being, or a type of civil society that doesn't subject itself to communism, right? And at the same time, you can make that profitable. The combination of that is the term he coined extractive repression.
• 23:51
  We've seen variations of this in the past as well in other totalitarian regimes. Yeah, okay. Let me pass it back to you. I'm not sure if I've answered your question entirely, but I think probably got us started a little bit here.
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: Oh, no. It's good. And I like I mean, you think the same way that I think about a lot of things. And what I can see in how you're analyzing is that you're looking for historical context, you're looking for patterns across history, across nations, across, different regimes that have, you know, kind of risen and fallen, and that's how you're coming to your a lot of conclusions, which I think is really important because it's very easy for us to look at something as a singular event in isolation and then be misled on that event. But when you have an understanding of, say, communism, for instance, like if someone came to you and said, hey, Jan, we're starting a new union, and we're gonna fight the man, and we're gonna double your pay, you'd say, Hold on, I've seen this before.
• 24:47
  I was like, Oh yeah, I saw it over and over and over and over again, and it always ends up with me dead or poor, right? So, I think that you have that context. But I think that kind of taking the question to the next level, in terms of the evil that I know that you're witnessing and you describe in-depth in your book, which we'll kind of pull up in a little bit here, that there's some seriously evil and dark things that are happening in China. And as you mentioned before, it wasn't a bug. It's it's a core feature of the government.
• 25:22
  It wasn't something where, oh, okay. Yeah. That was some sort of rogue special units, kind of, you know, group that was doing that torture stuff over in Africa over in Afghanistan. It was like, okay. That was maybe a bug.
• 25:34
  But a lot of what you you described so far, which we'll get into, is actually part of the system in China under the the Chinese Communist Party. And so with forced organ harvesting over there, what's the scale of it? What like, what does it look like? For people that maybe have heard mention of it, what is the what is the cold hard reality of what this looks like in modern day China?
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: So this is something that's a whole different level from your, I'll call it the garden variety black market organ trade that you typically kind of hear about, or you've heard kind of urban legends about people waking up on ice with a kidney missing, all that kind of stuff, right? So here you need to have something basically you need a state actor, You need to have an entity like the Communist Party that is able to push massive coercive power through a population. That's one. Number two, you need to be able to dehumanize a group of people. And this is something that the communist party has excelled at historically.
• 26:42
  There's always someone, they always have an external enemy. And by the way, the external enemy of every communist system has always been America. Why? Because it's always been the prime power during the time that communism has been around. Maybe not the prime power, but also a major power and also kind of like the beacon of you remember what de Tocqueville described in Democracy to America, I believe, I would expect you've read that book, is that there's this kind of interesting process that happens in America, which is civil society self assembling to solve problems and doing it extremely well.
• 27:22
  And this is what de Tocqueville imagined would actually make America great, make America flourish. I mean, the prescience of this man is like truly unbelievable, right? But it's precisely this, right? This is where the innovation springs from. This is where division of labor, if you go follow Adam Smith a bit here, right?
• 27:40
  It springs from all this stuff that makes the pie bigger, Okay, when you see, you know, and because the one of the biggest pieces of communist propaganda that is the thing that's won every communist revolution for them, okay, is that the pie is fixed. And if someone has more of the pie than you do, it's because they took it from you. It's not that they increased the pie and they made your life better too, which is actually what happened a lot of the time. Not always, right? The other part is also true, right?
• 28:08
  Communists sort of excel in these have truths. Yes, there are people that take from you and that becomes their piece of the pie, but that's not where prosperity comes from, right? And so they actually, in going back to forced organ harvesting, okay? We have this situation where you, they kind of, they have to take a piece of the population and kind of convince the rest of the country or the system that these people are somehow lesser than. Okay, they're lesser than you.
• 28:44
  Somehow they're bad. Maybe they took stuff from you, right? This is why I got into describing this particular piece of propaganda. Maybe they're just evil, Maybe it's what the Germans did in the 30s to the Jews, that kind of language. But often it's just simply these people are taken from you.
• 29:04
  And now these people, you're creating this amenity amidst the population against a particular group of people. Okay. And that was, for example, '19 communist China in '89, it was the student movement. In '99, it was a group called Falun Gong, spiritual practitioners, truthfulness, compassion, tolerance. This is what they practice and kind of a very unusual movement, actually very difficult even in the West to fully understand, because it's unusually grassroots in this de Toquebillian way that I described, unusually bottom up, I which think the communists themselves couldn't even understand because communism is sort of obscenely hierarchical.
• 29:42
  It's kind of the opposite. Very, very top down. And as I mentioned, sort of crushes all semblance of civil society and these kind of and these bottom up things. So you have to be able to do that. The third part is you have to have the power to basically incarcerate a huge group of people.
• 29:58
  And this is what the Chinese Communist Party, where there were 70 to 100,000,000 Falun Gong practitioners by 1999 by their own government estimate. And the dictator at the time decided to crush it. He felt this was a threat to his power. We could talk a lot about why these decisions were made. I thought a lot about this because, you know, persecuting one in thirteen Chinese is no small task, which is what basically they started to do back in those days.
• 30:24
  But the bottom line was these people did not get re educated. That was the first kind of plan. We're going to get rid of this practice. We're going to re educate these people. We're going to brainwash them.
• 30:36
  And then we'll be happy again as a good communist society. But these people were very resilient. So they started arresting them and then they started doing terrible things to them to force them to renounce their faith and so forth, right? That's how you got like a million people put into the system. And that's what kind of that whole scenario is actually what gave birth.
• 30:54
  Remember I talked about extractive repression, right? This whole scenario is what gave birth to this next level organ trafficking. Okay, because they started to blood type, tissue type and organ scan these people. Right? I have a theory in the book actually about how this began, who it began with.
• 31:16
  I
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: don't
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: know if it's 100% right, but I think I've got very good evidence to support it. And when they did this, suddenly someone say in America, and this happened because before 2,006 when we first started kind of reporting on this at the Epoch Times, there were actually ads. We have archived these ads which said, if you need a new heart, I mean roughly, and you've got 150 or $200 in your pocket to pay for it, I can give it to you in two weeks scheduled. How is that possible? Well, because of these blood types, blood scans, tissue types, organ scans, all of that, now there's a database of all that information, and when I pay my money, I'm already matched to someone who is incarcerated in prison, but already their vitals have been taken prior and they can be killed to order, shipped and killed to order on demand to get you that heart scheduled in two weeks from today.
• 32:18
  And that process, you asked about the scale. To our best of our knowledge, it ramped up. It grew geometrically. They built thousands of hospitals starting in the 2000 on the backs of the Falun Gong. By about 2005, it kind of plateaued.
• 32:34
  By the end of the plateaued, but still grew a bit. And by the end of the 2000s, we're looking at sixty to ninety thousand transplants annually a year. Okay, no credible legitimate organ source of any sort. Okay, that's so this is a whole different level of evil we're talking about. And I think that's probably what gets us started a little bit here.
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: So, to kind of summarize what I'm hearing, like you have this spiritual group, these Falun Gong, that starts in the '90s. By government numbers, they estimate there's between 70 and upwards close to 100,000,000 of these people in China. They tend to be healthier, right? Specifically, I think they don't drink alcohol, so they don't do some of the things that tend to negatively impact your organs.
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: Correct.
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: Correct.
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: And so, Jiang Zemin, in 'ninety nine, basically says, Okay, there's this massive grassroots movement of people that are thinking good things, and we don't control this movement. So in communist fashion, we're gonna stamp it out. Right? If I remember correctly, was thought he could get rid of it within a couple of days. Right?
• 33:53
  We're just gonna, like, wipe it off the face of of the Chinese Earth. That didn't happen. They resisted. Right? As we you know, Christians throughout history, it's like, Well, throw me to the lions.
• 34:03
  Right? Like, that's just a test of my faith. Right? It's a different perspective, especially to someone who's a communist or an atheist. They don't understand that thinking.
• 34:11
  Like, well, just hey, just just say, you know, you're gonna give up your practice. Just deny your faith, you'll be okay. You won't be fed to a lion. It's like, well, that's the thing is that that means that there is no faith, right? So, basically, they get to a place they, in 'ninety nine, they start arresting all these people.
• 34:29
  At a certain point, you know, they've, got potentially millions of them moving through some sort of prison system. They then discover, Oh, okay, wow. These people are healthy, there's an international demand for organs, you know, the wait list for a liver in The US is say three or four years or whatever, and they're thinking, Oh, well, this is like, we got a great crop here that we can harvest and make billions or trillions of dollars looking at, mean, single human body is worth hundreds of thousands of dollars on the Oregon, you know, black market. And so, they're they basically have this big system then, as far as I understand, and kind of following along your kind of logic here, where they have all these people in these prisons, and I know they have kind of military hospitals with prisons underneath, they've got labor camps, etc, but they're all kind of part of a database, right? So, you know, Aunt Jane is out meditating in the park and she gets arrested, they're doing a blood type, they're doing a few things like that before she gets into the system, and they now know that, you know, Okay, this woman has these particular organs, she's this blood type, she's in this region.
• 35:45
  And so they've basically taken this opportunity of having potentially millions of people in this system they've arrested, they built a database on all those people, they built the infrastructure to quickly move from someone seeing an ad or calling in and saying, Hey, I need a liver, whatever. Say, Okay, do you have $120,000 cash? Okay, great. So they built this system to then find, Oh, okay, yeah, we've got this Aunt Jane over in Hebei province, and she's a good match for that. So, okay, we got the, we got the bank wire, the person's coming here, he's gonna be here in three days.
• 36:22
  They then take Aunt Jane, they transport her, they execute her, as far as I understand, via organ extraction oftentimes, it's actually the method of execution is, okay, we're gonna take all your organs and you'll die in the process. They make a ton of money. They get rid of this this political dissident, and from the communist perspective, hey, it's a it's a win win system. I mean, that I don't if I've kind of simplified it, but is that basically what what we've seen evolve in China?
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, and clearly you have taken a look at my book and probably I imagine some other work beforehand because I thought that was a brilliant kind of explanation. I mean, to your point about people being killed by the organ extraction itself, there's voluminous evidence of this. Like some people at this point might be thinking, 'Hey, this sounds kind of crazy.' But you know, just as an example in, I believe it's 2022, American Journal of Transplantation, you know, top US transplantation journal, there's a paper titled 'Execution by Organ Procurement.' Okay, and that paper documents, they looked at a couple of thousand of Chinese transplant research papers, both in a variety of different kinds of journals, published, peer reviewed, all that stuff public, right? And they found 70 instances of very obvious clear violations of the dead donor rule. And violation of a dead donor rule just means that that the person was killed by their organs being removed, not They weren't kind of already established as being dead.
• 38:06
  And this, by the way, with transplantation, this is a bit of a complex question because you can't, aside from corneas, you can't transplant from a completely dead body. Typically what happens, say in The US, is someone has a catastrophic accident that, and you know, there's a whole team that gets together and asks the question, 'Can this person ever come back?' And if the likelihood is really small, right? They'll say, 'Okay, then this person, you know, we're going to help, we're going to sacrifice the tiny, tiny, tiny possibility of this person's going to come back to help this person live.' That's how the decision is made. That's hard. Some people, you know, even don't like that in itself.
• 38:45
  But this is how transplantation systems work. And there's brain death as a way of dead. Some people don't like that. There's different ways to assess the death, so to speak, of a person to do this. But if the blood has stopped pumping, those organs will be rejected at a very high rate.
• 39:05
  So that's why you kind of, if to do this whole forced organ harvesting thing, you kind of have to go to China, where someone is killed, on the spot to give you those organs at that moment because that reduces the rejection. See our immune systems are set up like we're very comfortable with all the things that are part of our body, but then if you put something foreign in there, the system attacks it. So you have to have all these sort of anti rejection drugs and so forth. Now some of those in many cases, this is part of the reason why the matching is so rare. You have to have someone that has a catastrophic accident in an unethical transplant system.
• 39:45
  Plus they have to match you in a bunch of ways. Your histology, blood type, size. You can't you have to have like a comparable size, right? That's why it's rare. That's why you have to wait for years sometimes.
• 39:57
  But here you have all of that in a database and the person is ready to be killed. Basically a stable of sorts of incarcerated prisoners ready to be killed to order.
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: Okay, that makes perfect sense in how that would work. And of course, we know that the Chinese are great at building technology and systems for all of this stuff. So, I mean, it wouldn't surprise me if they even, if they even have systems where they, someone's been through their system, they know that person, they know their organs, everything, and say that person gets released, that maybe through their surveillance state, you know, if they get that call for an organ, they're gonna go, Okay, let's go take that guy, he's in his living room right now, we'll go grab him. It wouldn't surprise me if that's even happening.
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: Well, Seth, I'll mention one thing. It's interesting that you mentioned that, but there's a case at the Supreme Court in The US right now. The case is called Cisco v. Doe. Okay, and then that case is a very interesting case where way back when in early 2000s, per the materials that are provided by the people who are making the allegation against Cisco, right?
• 41:05
  Cisco actually marketed itself to the Chinese regime with the idea of helping them persecute people. So, you know, you want to talk about American complicity. If this is, you know, and again, this is a case that's in front of the Supreme Court. What's being argued is even the question about whether it can actually go to trial. The Ninth Circuit decided it's worthy to go to trial, but it uses a kind of statute which could potentially be abused against Americans.
• 41:34
  This is a question about the statute itself. But the question, the point is that, you know how the CCP has been incredibly effective over the years. This is something I've covered extensively on my show, right? It's been incredibly effective at extracting, you know, all sorts of know how, all sorts of massive, you know, trillions of dollars in financial resources, of course, IP, you know, you name it. It's been arguably kind of the largest wealth transfer in the history of the world from a country that the CCP views as kind of its prime enemy nation and a willing participation.
• 42:12
  It's just kind of this crazy scenario. But part of it was because of this lure of profits, right? I mean, my interpretation looking at these court documents, right? Is basically that, you know, Cisco just saw a massive opportunity to help China build its so called golden shield system, right? Actually a lot, this is the prototype of what became the social credit system in China.
• 42:36
  Then the irony is, of course, with this whole thing is that at some point, the CCP kind of reengineered the technology and kicked Cisco out. I mean, can't even write this kind of stuff. But I'm very curious to see how this court case goes and see whether the Supreme Court will allow this case to go to trial because it'll really interesting to see the discovery materials in detail, right? And exactly what was how all this worked and how these different how this original kind of database of social credit, who knows what it was used for. I don't know, right?
• 43:11
  I can't speak to that, but that exists, right? This is sort of, again, we're talking about how these communist societies sort of subvert and weaponize free societies. You know, they use everything. They use honey pots. They use, you know, just greed, simple greed.
• 43:28
  I mean, that's probably a fairly easy one, right? But they really take advantage of the open system, right? And this is and partially, right? This what we were talking about this active measures, right? There's been a massive decades long effort to try to demoralize the American people to make the American people, especially Western people in general, but especially Americans, right?
• 43:52
  Because America has always been this bulwark against totalitarianism over the years. To make them feel their own system is kind of like that, right? And in a way, by compromising people, I mean, in China, there's a whole, you could think of it like a ministry, okay, called the United Front Work Department, which has, you know, I don't, the last I knew it was a $40,000,000,000 budget and its entire purpose, okay entire purpose is to co opt, is to co opt basically people in other countries to kind of work on their behalf to subvert. And of course, again, America has always been kind of the prime enemy. So, you know, there's massive resources being spent on convincing Americans that America is actually the problem.
• 44:38
  But, know, that doesn't mean that all the problems that you're finding in the Epstein file should be excused. Absolutely not. We need to deal with them. In this country, we actually can deal with them. And to answer your question about that bit of propaganda about, hey, we kill the we kill those people that are pedophiles in China.
• 44:57
  It's like, I'm sure they kill a few people that are pedophiles in China. But if you're a super elite in China, you're one of those animals who are more equal than others to throw a little Orwell into the mix. And you have complete impunity. You have impunity to the point, right, where I don't know if you remember this hot mic moment that happened maybe for, I have a terrible sense of the passage of time, but some months ago, know Xi Jinping and Vladimir Putin are Tiananmen Square watching a military parade and they're talking about you know Putin says through continual organ transplantation perhaps we can achieve immortality right and then Xi confirms yes one hundred and fifty years as a target. It's part of their elite longevity project.
• 45:44
  That blew my mind you know, I've been studying this issue for twenty years and it never occurred to me bizarrely right because I guess I could compartmentalize these things. I knew about the nine eighty one project. They like to call their projects by numbers and so forth. They knew that existed and I knew forest organ harvesting existed in intricate detail because I did some of the earliest reporting on it back in 2006 and on and off over the years, but I'd never put them together. We know that these Chinese elites live a lot longer.
• 46:12
  And how does that happen? Well, all sorts of ways. But this organ harvesting, imagine if you're a Chinese super elite, you have unlimited on demand organs available to you forever, essentially until you die and to extend your life. And there's even like sometimes you find these very interesting anecdotes that kind of prove the case. I could give you a bunch of them alone.
• 46:38
  They tell you just something really shocking. But when you understand the context, there's actually a eulogy we discovered. Someone sent this to me, okay? Because it was so weird and crazy, right? But the eulogy was about a Chinese super elite who had passed away.
• 46:50
  And in the eulogy, the person writes how amazing it was that this person had had all of these organs replaced. And it's like, you you just see this and you're like, of course this has to do with the But now in the context of the hot mic moment and understanding how the forced organ harvesting works now, you kind of get the picture, right? Why this person was so impressed, so to speak, by the fact that there had been all these organ replacements, because that's a route to get a few more years of life over there.
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: Gosh. It's just, it's, it's crazy that these things are now coming to the surface. I remember when that hot mic moment happened, was just like, Oh my goodness, this is, they're talking about it. Right? You have all these kind of basement theories of like, oh, the elites are harvesting the energy and harvesting the bodies of the the common cattle so they can live forever.
• 47:42
  And, yeah, it kinda works like that. Before we we kinda continue, I just do I do wanna bring up your book, and we'll bring it up again at the end of the show and, potentially more. And I'll make sure the link is in the description for this, but this is your new book that is coming out on March 17. You can preorder it right now. It's called Killed To Order.
• 48:04
  You can find it actually, it's going to killtoorder.com, which will take you here to the Amazon link. I'll put that link in the description. But you've referenced it a few times, and we'll continue to come back to it. But I just wanted to just take a moment just to put that up on screen so people can see that.
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: Seth, I appreciate you saying it too, because I kind of have an agenda here. I love to be very transparent with people, right? I think, you know, when I first started talking to people about this issue back in 2006, when I realized it was real, there were kind of multiple lines of evidence, two kind of whistleblowers. One of them became a kind of a hero of the movement. I could explain how that what happened there.
• 48:46
  But, you know, when I talk to people about this, literally mid conversation, people would just sort of go away. They would clue out. It was the wildest thing. And I also like, I realized after a while, first I thought, you know, is it me or something? But no, the idea is just so monstrous, right?
• 49:04
  It's just such an extreme human rights violation, right? Like large scale murder for organs, you know, for profit or for longevity as I've kind of added my understanding in recent years. And I think over the last maybe decade, some things have happened which helped, I think, the societal consciousness or the zeitgeist helped us understand that just a lot of really terrible things might be happening that we weren't ready to accept. Right? And there's just some things that hit the entirety of the population.
• 49:41
  Like for example, the COVID years, like some of the policies that were instituted. On the side of the CCP, they were wildly extreme. These zero COVID policies that were basically like lock people and weld them into their homes. Like, wow, you could do that? It's like, yeah, we did it.
• 50:00
  Right? And this is again, so this the other part that's so weird because, you know, there was never anything with the virus that we saw around most of the world, including in The US, right? That would suggest the need for that kind of at all, right? It's just that you can't deal with viruses this way. It's really got a bad policy.
• 50:20
  And our own policies talked about this before we decided to adopt what seemed to be like a kind of military countermeasures policy. What I'm trying to get at is over there, they did this extreme draconian, of course there's no real civil liberties in China in the first place, so they feel fine to do that. But somehow here we decide we're like, hey, maybe we should do what they did, you know? And that was as dumb. I mean, I think increasing evidence even in the publicly available mainstream data and journals is telling us how ill begotten this whole concept was in the first place.
• 51:03
  But I think part of it was because, you know, okay, I'm sorry, I'm sort of meandering a little bit here, but I want to touch on this, you know, When we started with the Epoch Times back in 2000, right? There was something called the Kissinger Doctrine that was in effect. I mean, nobody believed or in every way, almost everybody believed that by investing in China, putting a lot of cash into China, it's going to become a democracy. We're going to liberalize them. It's going to become like a South Korea or a Taiwan or something like this.
• 51:34
  This was the huge narrative that was happening, right? And at Deepak Times, we knew this is false because we knew they're killing people for refusing to renounce their faith, for example. That's not a liberalizing society. There's no scenario that you know, sort of fundamental core violations of what we call the first amendment in America. That's a liberalizing society, right?
• 51:58
  It's not going to be one when people are literally being killed for exercising their core, the most basic rights, right? So, there was this whole idea, we're going to change them. And it's true, when there's interaction between systems, changing does happen. Influence does happen. But my concern is it's actually mostly been in the other direction.
• 52:23
  Okay, and so like, so, know, we're, I talked about greed being used, right? And this is something I write a lot about in the book. Okay, about how, kind of subversion works. But the most powerful way you can subvert a country is you co opt the people to kind of be on your side in a way. If we're making money together, it's a lot harder to extricate yourself and it's a lot harder to say, 'Hey, Tiananmen Square just happened.
• 52:51
  That looks really bad. You guys shouldn't do that.' It becomes a lot harder because you have all these people saying, you know, even if the well meaning people, right? Even the well meaning people are thinking to themselves, you know, it's hard to see when you have a lot of money invested. It's hard to see the thing that would make it hurt your bottom line really substantially, even if it's staring you in the face, even if you're well intentioned. You see what I'm saying?
• 53:19
  So by creating this sort of dependence, And really abusing the American system. Like, you saw recently, the issue of rare earths being weaponized against America, arguably the most powerful piece of leverage that the CCP has against America, and there's a few of them. Right? Well, was a very deliberate national security oriented strategy for them. They basically destroyed, but through dumping, through various type of economic warfare measures, they destroyed the American industry.
• 53:57
  And I might add with some frankly support from people in America who were either partially bamboozled, partially paid off, partially both at the same time, right, to make that happen. And now of course we're scrambling to try to fix all this, and I have some ideas about that too. Got a lot of ideas, but what I'm trying to explain is this is all kind of a system, right? To talk about your, the questions of your propaganda, talk about questions of people, you know, maybe even doubting that this forced organ harvesting is happening at all. To, you know, they're really the masters of creating narratives to basically get people to go along with what they want, which is always in the benefit of the Chinese Communist Party in the highest position.
• 54:56
  And in fact, it's to your benefit, they really kind of see that as a downside.
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: So getting into the, like, the hierarchical structure, there's a book that I've been really focusing on a lot these past week or two called Political Ponderology. And I know actually we were talking before recording, and I was I'm glad that you're not just not only familiar with it, but you actually you referenced it multiple times in your book and Yes. You know, you
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: It's an incredibly, incredibly important book. By the way, it's a tough book to read, which you probably have noticed as you're reading because it's just not, just, it's a tough book to read. That's how Lobachevsky wrote. But no, it's an incredibly important book. Don't I know how much you want to talk about.
• 55:43
  I'm happy to tell you what I know and Yeah.
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: Well, there's one thing I wanted to kind of unpack a little bit with you specifically as it relates to this is because one thing that he describes in here is that basically, to really summarize the essence of what I've taken away from it, political ponderology. Ponderology is the kind of like the scientific study of evil. Political is just political, right? So it's a crossover of politics and evil. And as I understand the main thesis, it's that there are a certain amount of people on this earth that are just evil people.
• 56:17
  They don't have compassion, they don't have empathy, they just want power and control over others. Those kinds of people, which are what we would refer to as pathological or psychopaths, they gravitate towards positions of power, where they can gain more influence over people. Once they gain those positions of power, they then bring in all their cronies and people that have the same ideals, the same weaknesses they can exploit with blackmail or bribery, etcetera, as to build that system. Now, as these systems grow over time, it's kind of like you have this kind of concept of like, The rich get richer, the poor get poorer. Like, have this momentum, was once they had that power, they can create more power and more power.
• 56:58
  And so, eventually, you get to a place where, what he describes as being called a pathocracy, where it's kinda like the the system itself has just become evil to the core. And as I was reflecting on that, and I thought was thinking a lot of China and and how the CCP is such a perfect example of political ponderology in terms of how the most evil have risen to the top of that system. And also, why their grip on the information that can act, you know, that can be spread in a society is so strong because, as he describes in his book, once enough people see the system for the evil it is, the system starts to crumble because a lot of their power is really derived in the secrecy and the people not really knowing how evil it is, which, again, seems to be happening, that there's a now an unknowing happening, you know, pretty significantly right now across the world, especially with these Epstein files. But I wanted to because you know this information so well and because you know China so well, how do you What are some of the principles that are represented in a pathocracy and how it's established that you see in the CCP?
• 58:11
  Especially the idea of promoting evil, and how Like, it's like, how can a society like China that, you know, a couple hundred years ago, not to mention a couple thousand years ago, was one of the pinnacle societies of upright human culture with morality and virtue and principles and discipline and cohesion among society? How's it gone from that to, I'd say, one of the most evil empires that's ever existed on this earth? So I'll I'll, I'll let you explain however you want to. I love tossing you these giant questions and seeing what you do with
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: your I know. I know. Well, let let me start here. Okay. So something that Lobachevsky's actually origin story is very interesting, and I'll explain to you in a moment why I think we should start with that.
• 58:58
  But basically to summarize it, he was at the Jagiellonian University, where actually my family had a lot of people who worked at the Jagielorgy University. My background is Polish. At the time when the Iron Curtain was coming down after World War II, okay. And he it was a very powerful department of psychology, very, you know, kind of internationally renowned. But what happened is the commissars came in and took over and he was in class, he was literally in the class at the time, right?
• 59:30
  And he watched the reaction and this is what this sort of colored his whole body of work which turned into political ponderosa, which is actually the political ponderosa, it's interesting because was Lobachevsky was the one who kind of carried the knowledge for possibly hundreds, if not tens of different illicit scholars that worked within these, you know, under the iron curtain, under the Soviet occupation countries. Okay. And so the political ponderology is a product of that. Say that the book was multiple times burned. He had to bring it back from memory.
• 1:00:06
  Mean, the whole story is unbelievable. But what he saw in those initial days as this commissar replaces the legitimate psychology professor is this guy starting to spout insane stuff, right? Like kind of some like some of the stuff you might hear from a, you know, a very committed woke professor or something like that. Okay, for those of you familiar with, probably a lot of your viewers would be roughly familiar with what that might look like. Okay, but the reaction to that, right, is because it really has not a lot to do with building critical thinking or understanding how, you know, the psychology of people.
• 1:00:41
  It's just, it's sort of, here's how it's going to be. Here's how you're supposed to think about the world. It's an oppressor oppressed, you know, whatever it goes on and on. Okay? So the room reacted.
• 1:00:53
  The class reacts in this fascinating way, which you keep seeing replicated. Okay, some of the people are absolutely horrified and stand up to it and say, this is not psychology. What are you talking about?' Very small number. Okay. A whole large group of people are just sort of stunned and wondering what the heck is going on, but don't want to say anything because they might get in trouble.
• 1:01:17
  Right? And then another very small group of people are enthusiastic supporters of the new clearly crazy regime, if you will. And he sees this sort of scenario mirrored again and again in the world. And I found this so fascinating because this I've seen this scenario manifest all sorts of times. The vast majority of people are kind of going to go with whatever the situation is just because they want to live their lives and you know, have a reasonable life move on with things, right?
• 1:01:52
  And not get caught up in the insanity of the day, right? But a few people, some people will be with these people, you know, like maybe the COVID resistors or whatever, and say, guys, is this crazy. We can't do this. This is really bad for society. And then of course suffer the consequences.
• 1:02:10
  I mean, a light way, in a place like here in communist China, it's a whole different level of reprisal, right? But there's also this other part. And these are the people that Lobachevsky identified as the people who have this antisocial personality disorder, cluster B traits and so forth, right? Because, so he theorized that in these societies, right, these people rise to the top. Because see, and some people might think to themselves in any societies, people might rise to the top, but that's actually not true.
• 1:02:48
  Okay. Because these people have real problems with empathy. They can't connect with people. They have to pantomime. They kind of pretend to participate in society.
• 1:02:59
  Right. And actually my own view of these kind of Marxist and Marxian ideologies, it's very interesting. They're kind of, they don't make a ton of sense. But if you performatively say the right words, right, and do things that, you know, according to the rule set that is ever changing, right, you can actually be incredibly successful, right. Whether, know, we were learning about, I had Jay Bhattacharya, the NIH director on American Thought Theaters recently was talking about DEI loyalty oaths to get grants, for NIH funding grants as an example, right.
• 1:03:33
  So you kind of have to, but what struck me about all this is that if you are one of these anti social people, a system like this, where politics takes precedence over reality, over everything, right? You can actually be uniquely successful because all you have to do is performatively do the things and you don't care whether it's crazy or not. Because as you pointed out, know, you're sort of just your pursuit of power is unimpeded by questions of loyalty or reality or anything, right? So that's why, so uniquely that if you this is one way to explain why communist China was able to turn into such a monstrous society despite, by the way, despite the fact that there's still a heck of a lot of good people in it. Okay, it's not like everybody gets transformed and changed.
• 1:04:25
  No, a lot of people's value systems do get contorted by all this, by decades of really twisted values being pushed into the population and mass murder and people being forced into cannibalism, right? Like during the great leap forward and watching these, the red guards, kill your parents and there's generations of this. Every family has lost people, right? In China. So, did contort things, but it didn't.
• 1:04:51
  It's not like everybody suddenly became these, you know, the psychopathic people that remains a smaller portion of the population. Some people get terrorized into behaving that way. That's also something that we watch like the way sort of sometimes children of people who have antisocial personalities or will take on some of those characteristics. I think all of that happens. But in essence, you have a situation where these types of antisocial personality disorder, psychopathic people disproportionately get to the top of the pyramid, right?
• 1:05:30
  Of the pyramid. Because the incentive structures are set up specifically in communist systems to facilitate their rise. Okay. Specifically because, and over time that's how you get the gulag, right? Because you have a disproportionate concentration of these types of people in positions of power, and they say, 'Look, here's how it's going to be.' And a whole lot of people just kind of run with it.
• 1:05:58
  And when you have this, this is remember when I was talking about the dehumanization element, right? How important that was in being able to facilitate forced organ harvesting. Or it's a central part of any genocide that ever happens. You can't have a genocide unless a large portion of the population has been sort of tricked into believing that the targets of it are somehow less than human because somehow it kind of gives them like a weird justification to allow it to happen. See, like you pointed out, you were talking about like when people realize how evil it is entirely, the system collapses.
• 1:06:34
  We kind of get tricked into accepting doing terrible things. A great example of that in our society is the whole trans thing. We've kind of accepted for a while until we actually had time to think about it. And a few very brave people came out and explained to us what was really happening. That it actually made sense to put children on puberty blockers and then give them surgeries to remove their body parts and stuff like that.
• 1:07:04
  It's crazy when you really think about it. But I remember even when I started with it, and I'm an unusually skeptical person, I don't take like, I'm too skeptical. I don't like, it's something I don't even like about myself. Everything I'm always like, is that, you know, it's helpful in certain times in the world, but it's not generally helpful for a healthy and happy life in some ways. But I didn't realize how monstrous it was, how terrible it was, how much damage it was doing to people at the beginning, because I didn't really sit down and think about it.
• 1:07:39
  And it kind of seemed like this is what most people believed. And this is the power of propaganda. You can have a small group of people. We're talking about voter ID as an example. Like that's just a kind of a little who are able to push propaganda through a system and kind of create this feeling like this is something that everybody believes or everybody that's on the right side of history or whatever believes, right?
• 1:08:08
  When in fact they don't, right? It's just a kind of a narrative from a relatively small group of people. And so the combination of that, now let's go back, okay, now to your final big picture question. Okay? So we have a situation where there's, you know, psychopathic people have been disproportionately raised up to the top over multiple generations.
• 1:08:29
  Right? That's one. Two, they have wild amounts of control over pushing propaganda into the population. And some of us are more susceptible to that, by the way, right? That's something we saw also during COVID.
• 1:08:45
  Like you could kind of, for some people you can switch. I don't even, I don't think it's a moral failing. There's just something about some of our psychologies that allows us to be much more suggestible to this kind of mass propaganda and so forth. So they're incredibly effective at this propaganda. They kind of use tricks of the mind to accept, to get some portion of the population on one side with through fear, obviously, right?
• 1:09:10
  Because part of the reason why you dehumanize and attack always some one group of people is to make sure everybody else knows what's going to happen to you if you don't submit yourself to the party, right? That's part of the system of how it works. And then you end up with these crazy realities like mass murder, large scale murder for organs for profit, So that the super elite, there's always as I mean this whole Animal Farm was one of my favorite books as a kid, and my God, what an unbelievable book. You can read it maybe in an hour or two. Haven't read it in a while.
• 1:09:46
  I don't know if it's very short, quick book to read. But wow, yes, some animals are more equal than others. So what a great piece of propaganda too. Was all animals are equal, then it's kind of changed a little bit. Right?
• 1:10:02
  So they're able to a very, very small group of people is able to keep with an iron fist control over a very large population, partially by keeping a significant portion of it impoverished, partially by allowing some kind of benefits to a certain portion of the population to keep them happy. Right? But all controlled through a large ability to push propaganda and prevent from the true reality of the system to be glimpsed entirely by the population, which as you pointed out, would of course collapse system if people understood the entirety of its depravity. It's a bit long winded, but I hope I've answered your question.
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 1: I mean, it was a question that required a long winded answer. So that was good.
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's the best. I there's there's more elements to this for as well, to be honest. But but I think that might be that's the best I can do in a short order.
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah. We should just write a book on it. That that'll help us. Actually, wait, you know what? There we go.
• 1:11:11
  So, gosh, we've already already gone over an hour. In fact, we we keep we could keep going, but we'll have to be mindful of our schedules here. So, as we're wrapping up, this is your book, Killed to China's Organ Harvesting Industry and the True Nature of America's Biggest Adversary. Think this is a very important book, especially for people in the West to read and understand right now, especially here in America, because I am seeing, as I've covered recently, there is a lot of propaganda that is being that is using this Epstein, as a very strong opportunity to try to put the CCP and put China into a very positive light. And I'm seeing it take hold with a lot of people that I thought were more discerning, and that's concerning to me.
• 1:12:00
  So, I think it's really important for people to understand the reality of what's happening in China. And I think that what you've done with this book is you have captured, I think, one of the most frightening realities of modern day China that is still happening. That's the key point here. That based upon my research, and can probably confirm this too, that this didn't stop five years ago or ten years ago or when she came into power. This is still happening to this day.
• 1:12:30
  Like, probably at this very moment we're recording this, there's probably some person that is having their organs removed as we speak. Like, this is currently happening right now. So I I highly encourage people to check out the book, obviously, to support you, Jan, and and what and what you're doing, but also just to help people just be more mentally prepared. Like, put this into your arsenal, into your toolkit, make sure that you're propaganda proof. Right?
• 1:12:57
  And that comes from this knowledge and understanding and everything. And so, yeah, thank you for doing this book. I encourage people to go preorder it. And actually, I have a request for people, is that if we want to really help push this forward, the more people that can preorder it, the higher chance it's gonna have at becoming a bestseller in the first, like, kind of window, because that's how these bestseller lists work. It's kind of like, okay, how many sales do you make within the first week, the first month, etcetera.
• 1:13:23
  I know this because I'm releasing a book as well that I'm kind of trying to figure out this equation to. So I do know that, having the preorders is really helpful. What's also really helpful is reviews. And so for anyone that buys the book, if you read it and you're happy with it, which I you probably would be, the reviews are really, really important. So it's one thing that you can do to help as well is if you get it, make sure you leave a review, especially on Amazon, because that really helps to propel the book to the levels that it deserves to be at.
• 1:13:55
  So, Jan, I guess I'll just let you kind of conclude our discussion here with whatever message If you want to leave people
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 2: I can make it a slightly long winded, know. Please do. So this is I actually do have like a few books that came to me in the mail. So this is you're one of the first to actually see the actual book. It comes out March 17.
• 1:14:19
  Yeah, it's kind of, it's a bit surreal to have this in my hands, a product of twenty years of work. I want to add a couple of things. I just had an interaction on X with someone and I was a little bit annoyed. Okay. So basically, I had something related to the book.
• 1:14:35
  It's one of the a new interview. I think that the VOA is gonna publish today related to it. I think it's the first time VOA has ever touched this issue, which is kind of a of a big deal for them. I'm glad to hear that. And also it's, you know, maybe more people in China will see that through their channels, which will be very interesting to see.
• 1:14:55
  But the person said, this is a distraction from the Epstein files and I was like, know, and my answer was basically, are you joking? We have to tackle both of these issues, right? Like that's kind of what I said, right? Are you joking? This is a crime against humanity.
• 1:15:10
  Like what do you mean it's a distraction? That's ridiculous, right? And the person, actually the person it turned out was good faith, right? Because sometimes you see this stuff, there's a lot of trolls, a lot of people that are just going to come out and say, China's awesome, you suck. There's no way of changing their thinking.
• 1:15:27
  They're not interested in dialogue. It's just that's their thing or something else. No, but this guy was actually good at me to say that he said, no, to be honest, the timing is kind of suspicious of this book because there's this big thing that we have to deal with in America, right? And I was like, you know what? Okay, I actually get your point.
• 1:15:45
  This is a good point. It's not like we don't have to deal with the revelations of the Epstein files. I also want to add though, it doesn't mean that everybody found in the files is guilty and that's incredibly important. Okay, we have a guilty, innocent before proven guilty approach to the world here. It's incredibly important.
• 1:16:06
  It's one of the cornerstones of a free society to be able to function at all. And we've been sliding on that event, right? So let's not, you know, let's be reasonable with this and deal with it properly and expect our authorities to find, you know, accountability for the people that are guilty of some of these horrific crimes in there. Okay. And at the same time, let's stop our own complicity as Americans.
• 1:16:36
  And I've written on this, I had an op ed in the Baltimore Sun a few months back about this exact issue, right? Like in America, we train the surgeons that do this stuff. Okay, among others, like not all of them, but significant numbers. We have funding relationships, we supply technology, we supply like solutions, fluids that are actually used in doing the organ transplantation in China where the vast, if not all of it, the vast, vast, vast majority is this kill to order type enterprise. At the very least, what we could do, right, is end our own complicity.
• 1:17:13
  In the book, I describe how I think we can do a lot more than that without even, so to speak impinging because people are worried about impinging on sovereignty and all that kind of stuff. Sure, there's a heck of a lot we can do. And I talk about it in the book. Seth, it's been a huge pleasure. I love being able to show it to you too.
• 1:17:34
  It's like, hold it in my hands here. And yes, I do think you said, you actually said it really well. I think that if it can really get a nice launch, right, it will help millions more people understand this reality. And, you know, as I said, we can just not be part of this industry, right, as America. It would be very easy a very easy thing to do without a lot of heavy lifting.
• 1:18:02
  And I explain how we could do that too. So that's my kind of ask. My agenda, I ask is support it, you know, read it, I think you'll learn a lot not just about forced organ harvesting, but also how this whole system works because I do believe it's the perfect lens to understanding it. And I also think that we can kind of get mobilized to stop our own involvement in it entirely.
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 1: I'm glad that you mentioned, that comment because that's, that's a very typical comment you'll see that I think is very often tied to the CCP and their online army is saying it's, it's, it's the kind of the age old communist argument, Right? Well, look how bad you are. Don't criticize me. Look how bad you are. And and that's something that I am seeing, and I think that I would argue the opposite of that and saying that it is even more important at this time of this this release of the Epstein files.
• 1:18:55
  It's even more important for us to understand that there are very evil things happening at very high levels of power in our entire world, and let's look at all of them. Let's not just focus on one aspect of it. Okay. Yeah. Let's do some deep dives in the Epstein files.
• 1:19:10
  Great. It's important for us. But let's also try to understand what's happening around the world because the organ industry in China is not independent of The United States. As you've highlighted multiple times here, there are things that are happening on a transnational level. So we can't, we can't forget that.
• 1:19:28
  And so I
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 2: And let me add one more thing, Seth. I think this is also very important because sometimes when we're here, we're looking at the world around us. There's a lot of darkness and it's legitimate and we need to deal with it. I mean, this is reality. This is the truth.
• 1:19:42
  We to face it. We can't sort of put our heads in the sand and point fingers at other people. That's not the program here. The reality is that millions upon millions of people around the world dream of being able to be here and enjoy the freedoms that people have here with all of its, you know, a nice way to say it is warts and all, right? But with a lot of its, you know, the huge problems that exist here, right?
• 1:20:10
  It is the beacon of freedom for millions upon millions of people. And they're not wrong. They're not wrong, right? There's a lot of darkness in the world, right? And here we actually have an unusual opportunity to shift things in a better direction.
• 1:20:29
  To change things before we become caught up in a system like communist China, where those opportunities are a lot more restricted. A lot like that to say the least. Okay, you have to be absolutely heroic. There's all, but there are efforts of those nature happening in China too. Right?
• 1:20:46
  And the Falun Gong are involved in this and so forth. Maybe a topic for a different day. But we have unbelievable amounts of freedom and liberty here. And I suggest that we take advantage of them and not forget, not get sort of lulled as you're saying or or or get or get sort of, I don't know, bamboozled into believing this is this horrible society that has can that can have no redemption. Right?
• 1:21:12
  That is the whole communist narrative. That is how the communist revolutions happen. They convince you of that, and then they take power. And that's how you get Venezuela. Right?
• 1:21:21
  One of the most affluent countries in the world at one point, becoming, you know, the hellhole of transnational corruption that it became. Yeah, so anyway, believe in America, believe in America. Despite its huge challenges, this is the bastion of freedom today. It still is. And we can actually, you know, affect change here in ways that is almost impossible in most other parts of the world.
• 1:21:56
  Let's take advantage of that opportunity.
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 1: That's a really important point. It's a really important point. I was thinking, gosh, man in America, American thought leaders. It's obviously okay. We both, we both play some value on this country.
• 1:22:07
  The fact that we can sit here and have this conversation and not have someone kick down the door and throw a black bag over our heads and carry us off, we're very lucky for that. So we should always remember that. Well, Jan, thank you. It's a pleasure speaking with you. I'm a big fan of your show.
• 1:22:25
  Thank you for doing what you're doing. And everyone that's watching, make sure you help share this interview. Make sure you go buy the book, leave a review, spread this information far and wide. Jan, thank you so much. Take care and God bless.
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 2: Seth, thank you so much.