Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #206 Curious Kids with Susan Engel

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#206 Curious Kids with Susan Engel · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

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  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast. It's the podcast for the
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  Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers now. And one
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  Speaker 1: thing that I would say is a really good guideline
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  Speaker 1: that people forget is to listen to what your child
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  Speaker 1: is interested in talking about and what they're interested in.
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  Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mom
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  Speaker 1: and dad.
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  Speaker 2: Today. This is doctor Justin Colson and the author of
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  Speaker 2: six books about making families happy. And I'm here with
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  Speaker 2: my wife and co host my podcast partner, missus Happy
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  Speaker 2: Family's kye.
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  Speaker 1: Well.
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  Speaker 3: Wednesday is a day that we usually will interview somebody,
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  Speaker 3: somebody who's done particularly awesome things in relation to parenting
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  Speaker 3: or children. And today we're actually going to take a
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  Speaker 3: deep dive into the psychology of education with Susan Engel
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  Speaker 3: and Justin. I know you're such a big fan of
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  Speaker 3: Susan's work.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I read her book while ago. Susan is a
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  Speaker 2: psychology and education like her and researcher, and she wrote
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  Speaker 2: a book called The Hungry Mind. It's about how we
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  Speaker 2: can help our kids to be curious.
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  Speaker 3: Susan, Welcome to the Happy Families Podcast. Seeing this is
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  Speaker 3: a show all about families. We'd love to know a
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  Speaker 3: little bit about yours.
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  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I'm not sure if you're asking about the
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  Speaker 1: family I grew up in or the family that I raised.
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  Speaker 1: As I talk about in my book The Hungry Mind,
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  Speaker 1: I grew up on a farm on the eastern end
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  Speaker 1: of Long Island in New York State, and I had
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  Speaker 1: a lot of chance to roam around to explore. Maybe
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  Speaker 1: it's because of my age. At that time, children were
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  Speaker 1: encouraged to go out on their own and we were
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  Speaker 1: given a lot of room to be bored, but also
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  Speaker 1: to explore the world around us. Yeah, so I had
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  Speaker 1: a pretty great childhood.
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  Speaker 2: It does kind of sound idyllic. I just spoke recently
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  Speaker 2: with Lenoskanazi, who runs let grow dot org and you know,
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  Speaker 2: free range kids, and just talked about the difference between
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  Speaker 2: what it was for you to grow up with this
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  Speaker 2: let's just roam and maybe be a little bit bored
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  Speaker 2: and discover things for ourselves, versus the constant pressure we've
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  Speaker 2: got to go from here to there to there to there,
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  Speaker 2: and children's lives being so more at a totally different world.
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  Speaker 1: It is a different world. That said, I now live
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  Speaker 1: in a different rural area in southwestern Massachusetts and my
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  Speaker 1: husband and I raised three sons, and because of where
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  Speaker 1: we lived or live, our kids too had a lot
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  Speaker 1: of roaming around and free time. They didn't have the
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  Speaker 1: after school activities that other people with my kind of
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  Speaker 1: job and my kind of life had At the time,
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  Speaker 1: they came home and we either lay around and ate
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  Speaker 1: cannon watch TV, or they went outside and played and
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  Speaker 1: explored in the woods and watched the animals and got
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  Speaker 1: into trouble with one another. So actually, my kids, the
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  Speaker 1: whole generation younger, had a fairly similar childhood.
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  Speaker 2: Called me that often come to the mind of parents
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  Speaker 2: when they hear about children who aren't in scheduled appointments.
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  Speaker 2: You know, they're not going to swimming lessons, and they're
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  Speaker 2: not going to piano lessons. They're not involved in sport
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  Speaker 2: or music or art or drama or any of those
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  Speaker 2: things that kids have to be doing after school. In
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  Speaker 2: twenty twenty, a lot of parents will say, but my
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  Speaker 2: children are missing out on opportunities. How do you respond
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  Speaker 2: to that? And this isn't a critique of your parenting,
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  Speaker 2: It's more a question of parents are trying to give
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  Speaker 2: their kids not only opportunity. It's not necessarily about moving
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  Speaker 2: them forward so they can get into university or anything
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  Speaker 2: like that. But more we know that these things are
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  Speaker 2: good for kids, right. It's good for social, it's good
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  Speaker 2: for physical, it's good for just learning and adapting and
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  Speaker 2: developing confidence and skill. How to parents do you think
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  Speaker 2: balance this tension between letting the kids just have their
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  Speaker 2: childhood and having these structured activities that are research shows
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  Speaker 2: really good for them.
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  Speaker 1: Well, I have a complicated answer. First of all, the
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  Speaker 1: question is opportunity for what. So you could want your
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  Speaker 1: child to have opportunities that will get them ahead in
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  Speaker 1: some external sense, like get them into the more challenging
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  Speaker 1: school or the more selective school, or get them to
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  Speaker 1: go to university, or in the long run, get them
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  Speaker 1: the better job I suppose. Or you could think about
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  Speaker 1: opportunity as the opportunity to develop their thinking. And I
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  Speaker 1: think one of the mistakes that people make everywhere, especially
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  Speaker 1: now in twenty twenty, is the idea that if your
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  Speaker 1: child isn't doing something that an adult structured for them,
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  Speaker 1: they're not progressing, they're not enriching their minds.
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  Speaker 2: They're not maximizing their live.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a horrible term, actually maximizing their life, because
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  Speaker 1: it's spontaneously maximize their lives on their own. And there
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  Speaker 1: are ways in which adults can and should be involved
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  Speaker 1: and guide their children and help their children have a
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  Speaker 1: life and a rich mental life, But giving them a
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  Speaker 1: lot of overly structured activities is not the best way
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  Speaker 1: to do it. So that's one thing I would say.
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  Speaker 1: And I want to comment on your comment about the
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  Speaker 1: research shows that all those after school activities are great
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  Speaker 1: for them. Well, yes and no. It's clear that children
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  Speaker 1: whose parents make an effort to show them interesting things,
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  Speaker 1: or take them interesting places, or have interesting conversations with
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  Speaker 1: them something I write a lot about, or share experiences
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  Speaker 1: with them, those children really benefit. That's true. They do
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  Speaker 1: better in school, they have more developed interests, they're more
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  Speaker 1: able to achieve as they move on in their lives.
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  Speaker 1: But that's not the same as signing them up for
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  Speaker 1: ten different activities. So it all depends on what you
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  Speaker 1: think of as an opportunity.
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  Speaker 2: It's the Happy Families podcasts.
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  Speaker 3: I'm always looking for new ways to stay connected with
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  Speaker 3: my children while giving them the opportunity to have the
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  Speaker 3: same level of freedom I enjoyed when I was their age.
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• 6:26
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  Speaker 3: In your book at the Hungry Mind, you talk about how,
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  Speaker 3: in many cases, the education system can rob our children
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  Speaker 3: of curiosity. But before we talk about the book, wonder
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  Speaker 3: were you a curious student? Did you enjoy school?
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  Speaker 1: You know, I loved school and I was very lucky.
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  Speaker 1: But I have a new book coming out called The
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  Speaker 1: Intellectual Lives of Children, and I start with an experience
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  Speaker 1: from I often start with experiences from my own childhood.
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  Speaker 1: But I start with an experience from my own childhood,
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  Speaker 1: and it's about my mother's very spontaneous, natural, unstudied ability
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  Speaker 1: to encourage me to feed my interests and to pursue
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  Speaker 1: my interests, and how powerful that was in my life.
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  Speaker 1: So I love school from the beginning. A part of
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  Speaker 1: it is for reasons that any parent listening to your
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  Speaker 1: program will be familiar with. If it's easy for you
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  Speaker 1: to learn and if you read easily, two things that
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  Speaker 1: were true of me, it certainly makes school a lot
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  Speaker 1: nicer and more fun. So I had that going for me,
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  Speaker 1: and anybody who has more than one child knows what
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  Speaker 1: I'm talking about. One kid just finds it kind of easy.
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  Speaker 1: They pick up reading on their own. They can do
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  Speaker 1: the things that are asked of them, so school it
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  Speaker 1: can be a pleasure for them. For a kid who's
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  Speaker 1: extremely bright and extremely alive mentally, but who has some
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  Speaker 1: trouble like learning to read or getting along in school,
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  Speaker 1: that's not always the case. But for me, school was
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  Speaker 1: easy and fun and I loved it. I loved learning
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  Speaker 1: new things. I loved intellectual challenges, So that must be
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  Speaker 1: part of why I'm interested in studying that as a
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  Speaker 1: grown up, that was something that was very important in
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  Speaker 1: my life.
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  Speaker 2: You mentioned that your mom somehow managed to foster that
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  Speaker 2: love of learning that you had. In your book, you
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  Speaker 2: say that by the time children are three, Yeah, the
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  Speaker 2: ways in which their parents have talked to them have
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  Speaker 2: already shaped their intellectual futures. Now that's a big call.
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  Speaker 2: That's a really significant statement.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. So there's a lot of evidence to support that,
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  Speaker 1: showing that children who hear a lot of talk at home,
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  Speaker 1: and by a lot of talk, I don't just mean
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  Speaker 1: a lot of words, although that's very important. So the
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  Speaker 1: number of words a child hears on a daily basis
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  Speaker 1: in the first three years turns out to be incredibly
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  Speaker 1: predictive of how they will do at school and how
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  Speaker 1: easily they will learn. But there's more to it than that.
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  Speaker 1: The research shows that when children only hear language that
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  Speaker 1: is directed at managing them, you know, sit down, eat that,
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  Speaker 1: don't touch that, it's less it's less of a benefit
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  Speaker 1: for them, even if they hear a lot of it.
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  Speaker 1: Then parents who actually just converse with their children and
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  Speaker 1: converse around their children, whether it's talking about what they
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  Speaker 1: see out the bus window or what they see on
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  Speaker 1: their way to daycare, or whether they talk about what
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  Speaker 1: the child is doing at that moment. One of the
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  Speaker 1: things that I was thinking about earlier today was how
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  Speaker 1: important it is for grown ups, teachers, but also parents,
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  Speaker 1: very much so, to genuinely enjoy those conversations, not to
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  Speaker 1: make them a project, but just to enjoy the fact
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  Speaker 1: that you have a kid who's fun to talk to.
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  Speaker 1: And again, the research shows that parents who treat their children,
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  Speaker 1: who feel that their children are good conversational partners and
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  Speaker 1: really interact with them in that natural, fun spontaneous way,
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  Speaker 1: they they do more of the things just naturally. You
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  Speaker 1: don't need any training, you don't need to read a
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  Speaker 1: book about it. You just need to allow yourself to
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  Speaker 1: like talking with your kid. And people who do that
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  Speaker 1: their children benefit from it because they hear a lot
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  Speaker 1: more of the language that will help them develop intellectually
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  Speaker 1: as they get older.
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  Speaker 2: This may seem like a silly question, but I know
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  Speaker 2: that there are some people who are going to hear
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  Speaker 2: what you've just said just now and say, but what
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  Speaker 2: do I talk to my kids about? Like, my kids
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  Speaker 2: don't say anything back to me, and sometimes my mind
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  Speaker 2: is in so many other places. I don't know what
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  Speaker 2: to talk to them about. How do you respond to that?
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  Speaker 2: What kind of tips or gods would you offer to
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  Speaker 2: a parent who's really genuinely wanting to talk more to
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  Speaker 2: the child about other stuff other than correction and direction,
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  Speaker 2: but just isn't quite sure what to say.
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  Speaker 1: Well, first of all, it's totally understandable that a parent
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  Speaker 1: would feel that way, and no parent who has a
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  Speaker 1: busy life, and what parent doesn't have a busy life.
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  Speaker 1: No parent can be chatting to their child all the time.
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  Speaker 1: And one of the problems with modern day kind of
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  Speaker 1: these high expectations about parenting is the sense that you're
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  Speaker 1: supposed to be this model parent all the time. No
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  Speaker 1: one is. As I said, I think I was a
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  Speaker 1: pretty good mom and I have three great kids. But
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  Speaker 1: when they were little, I was working like a dog,
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  Speaker 1: and I had a very long commute, and I had
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  Speaker 1: three kids, and some of the time, as I said before,
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  Speaker 1: we were just watching TV together or line around eating cookies.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I can't tell you all the lazy, silly
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  Speaker 1: things we did together or not together, be on the
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  Speaker 1: phone or on my computer, or rushing to make dinner
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  Speaker 1: and they were doing something else. So this does The
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  Speaker 1: advice I'm giving isn't that parents have to be doing
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  Speaker 1: this all the time, but maybe notice whether at least
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  Speaker 1: once a day you have an exchange with your child
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  Speaker 1: that's fun and meaningful. And if you really can't, I mean,
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  Speaker 1: I'd be really shocked to hear any parent who has
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  Speaker 1: a fairly good relationship with their kid, and by that
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  Speaker 1: they're fairly comfortable as moms and dads. I'd be shocked
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  Speaker 1: to find out there's nothing that they like to talk about.
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  Speaker 1: It could be what happened that day. It could be
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  Speaker 1: the disgusting, you know, pizza they bought by accident. It
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  Speaker 1: could be the scab on their knee. I mean, it
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  Speaker 1: doesn't have to be fancy. It just has to be
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  Speaker 1: something that interests both people. And one thing that I
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  Speaker 1: would say is a really good guideline that people forget,
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  Speaker 1: and you've already mentioned in your question to me, is
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  Speaker 1: to listen to what your child is interested in talking about,
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  Speaker 1: and what they're interested in. What do they play with,
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  Speaker 1: what do they look at, what do they pay attention to,
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  Speaker 1: and ask them about it. It's fine just to ask
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  Speaker 1: your kid a few questions and then just to tell
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  Speaker 1: them what you really think or feel to be totally
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  Speaker 1: genuine in your interactions.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I hope you've enjoyed our chat with Susan Engel.
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  Speaker 2: She is an education and psychology researcher as well as
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  Speaker 2: being the author of a fabulous book, The Hungry Mind.
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  Speaker 2: If you do enjoy the podcast, we'd love it if
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: you could jump onto Apple Podcasts or wherever you get
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: your podcasts and leave a rating and review that helps
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: other people to discover the podcast to make their families happy.
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: And we've got a whole lot of resources to make
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  Speaker 2: your family happy as well. It's happy families dot com
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: dot Au. That's where you find out about the Happy
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: Families memberships. For as little as twelve dollars a month,
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: you can have a parenting expert literally in your pocket.
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: That's me Happy families dot com dot Au. Check out
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: the membership there and all the other resources. A big
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  Speaker 2: thank you to Justin Rulan from Bridge Media for producing
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  Speaker 2: the podcast and making it sound fabulous Soul and Craig Bruce,
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  Speaker 2: our executive producer, thanks for all the effort and ideas.
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  Speaker 2: More information is available at happy families dot com dot Au.
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  Speaker 2: We'll see tomorrow