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Gareth and Louise Ward on the business of bookselling and writing bestselling cosy crime · The Book Deal

• 0:09
  This is the Book Deal podcast where you will discover the inspiring stories, the authors behind your favorite books.
• 0:15
  No matter what sage of writing you are at, we've got you covered.
• 0:19
  I'm Tina Strachan.
• 0:20
  And I'm Madeleine Cleary.
• 0:21
  And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors one deal at a time.
• 0:29
  Madeleine Cleary: The Book Deal Podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters, which it's recorded on and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.
• 0:42
  Madeleine Cleary: Gareth and Louise Ward are writers, excos from the UK and the owners of Independent Bookshop, Ardini books in New Zealand.
• 0:50
  Madeleine Cleary: Their second novel written together in the bestselling bookshop, detective series, tea and Cake and Death features their beloved ex Copper and Bookstore owning Protagonists, Garth and Eloise.
• 1:03
  Madeleine Cleary: Gareth is the author of The Tarquin, the Honest and the Rise of the Remarkables book series, as well as being the bestselling and award-winning author of The Traitor and The Thief, and The Clock Hill and the Thief.
• 1:15
  Madeleine Cleary: Louise has one murder arrest to her name is an English literature graduate, and as an ex-teacher inflected Shakespeare on inner city 12 year olds.
• 1:25
  Madeleine Cleary: I had a ball chatting with Gareth and Louise about plotting and co-writing as a couple, and the business of book selling and writing, and they so generously shared their tips for writers about how we can best work together with booksellers.
• 1:38
  Madeleine Cleary: I loved Louise's message about forging meaningful relationships and Gareth's very honest advice too.
• 1:45
  Madeleine Cleary: If it's not going well, suck it up and move forward.
• 1:52
  Madeleine Cleary: Gareth and Louise Ward, welcome to the Book Deal Podcast.
• 1:55
  Louise Ward: Thank you for having us.
• 1:56
  Louise Ward: Thank you.
• 1:57
  Madeleine Cleary: And I got your names correct as well.
• 1:59
  Madeleine Cleary: I didn't call you by the protagonists of your series.
• 2:02
  Louise Ward: We haven't made it hard, uh, easy for people, have we?
• 2:06
  Madeleine Cleary: No, I love it.
• 2:06
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, you know, I was really interested in your story because, uh, my husband and I, we actually met working at a book shop and we worked together in a bookstore for years, and I think there's something very romantic.
• 2:17
  Madeleine Cleary: People think about working together in bookshops.
• 2:19
  Madeleine Cleary: What do you think?
• 2:21
  Louise Ward: Yeah, I suppose there is really, you know, it's a lot of people's dream to own a bookshop, isn't it?
• 2:27
  Louise Ward: If you, if you have that, if you have the, the, the initial romance of books and stories and adventures, and then you bring human romance into it, then it's a bit of a winner.
• 2:36
  Louise Ward: Um, we're not particularly romantic people.
• 2:38
  Louise Ward: We've got a very strong, a strong and happy relationship, but I wouldn't say we're, we're chocolates and flowers.
• 2:44
  Louise Ward: Cut types, other
• 2:45
  Madeleine Cleary: caning in the bookshelves then.
• 2:48
  Gareth Ward: I eat a lot of chocolate, but yeah.
• 2:50
  Gareth Ward: Oh, he does,
• 2:50
  Louise Ward: but he doesn't give it to me, so he, no romance.
• 2:54
  Gareth Ward: We, we met at police training college, not in the bookshop.
• 2:56
  Gareth Ward: So yeah, it was a bit That wasn't
• 2:58
  Madeleine Cleary: romantic.
• 2:58
  Madeleine Cleary: No.
• 2:59
  Madeleine Cleary: So what was your first impressions of each other when you first met at the police college, as you
• 3:04
  Louise Ward: straight
• 3:04
  Madeleine Cleary: in there?
• 3:05
  Gareth Ward: Well, uh.
• 3:07
  Gareth Ward: Louise was known as the Rottweiler at Police training college because she tended to bite everyone's head off.
• 3:13
  Gareth Ward: So that must been my first impression of Louise.
• 3:15
  Gareth Ward: I think,
• 3:16
  Louise Ward: can I just say I was 20 years old.
• 3:19
  Louise Ward: I had a lot going on in my life, so yeah, I was a little bit ratty and just trying to work my way through, uh, what was happening in the world and becoming a very young police officer.
• 3:28
  Louise Ward: Um.
• 3:28
  Louise Ward: And interestingly, um, so we, I was from Nottinghamshire Police and Gareth was from Northampshire Police and we, there's a central police training college where you all get together from the different forces.
• 3:40
  Louise Ward: And in our little class there were, um, were there just the two of you from Northampton?
• 3:44
  Louise Ward: Northampton, yeah.
• 3:46
  Louise Ward: Yeah.
• 3:46
  Louise Ward: So he and our friend Darren and the rest of the class called them the Northamptonshire Mafia.
• 3:51
  Louise Ward: 'cause they were just like, so, um.
• 3:53
  Louise Ward: I dunno.
• 3:54
  Louise Ward: So onto it and a little bit, little bit overconfident, shall we say.
• 3:58
  Louise Ward: So yeah, the, the first impressions were overconfident and aggressive.
• 4:03
  Gareth Ward: Might even say arrogant, possibly.
• 4:06
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh, I love that.
• 4:07
  Madeleine Cleary: And so for listeners who aren't, who haven't read yet, the bookshop Detective Universe, so you are now, you've just released book two, which is called Tea and Cake and Deaths.
• 4:18
  Madeleine Cleary: That came out the start of the month, and I love that title, by the way.
• 4:20
  Madeleine Cleary: Did, is that something that you guys came up with or was that the publisher?
• 4:24
  Louise Ward: No, it was all we came up with it.
• 4:26
  Louise Ward: I think there's lots of sort of, um.
• 4:28
  Louise Ward: Tea and cake, uh, bookshop references as it Eddie.
• 4:31
  Louise Ward: Is it odd sketch that, um, tea and cake and,
• 4:34
  Gareth Ward: no, it's tea and cake or death.
• 4:37
  Louise Ward: Tea and cake.
• 4:37
  Louise Ward: Or death.
• 4:37
  Louise Ward: Or death, yeah.
• 4:37
  Gareth Ward: Really.
• 4:38
  Gareth Ward: So that was a bit of inspiration.
• 4:39
  Gareth Ward: Play it
• 4:39
  Louise Ward: all, all over the place.
• 4:41
  Louise Ward: Yeah.
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  Madeleine Cleary: Oh, I love it.
• 4:42
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, so could you give us, Louise, perhaps a bit of an insight into your two crime fighting bookshop owning.
• 4:49
  Madeleine Cleary: Protagonist and their names are Garth and Eloise.
• 4:53
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm.
• 4:54
  Louise Ward: Yeah.
• 4:54
  Louise Ward: Which does make it tricky for people, interviewers such as yourself.
• 4:57
  Louise Ward: You
• 4:57
  Madeleine Cleary: made it very tough.
• 4:59
  Louise Ward: Yeah.
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  Louise Ward: And I apologize for that.
• 5:01
  Louise Ward: So when we first, it was Gareth's idea to write a book together.
• 5:03
  Louise Ward: He's the author of, uh, six novels before the bookshop detectives.
• 5:07
  Louise Ward: Yes.
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  Louise Ward: Um, and we, we thought, well, what, what should we write about?
• 5:12
  Louise Ward: Well, we know about policing back in the day, and we know about running a bookshop and, and being booksellers.
• 5:17
  Louise Ward: So we thought we'd, we'd play around with those environments and create a cozy crime novel.
• 5:21
  Louise Ward: We wanted it to be cozy because we still wanted people to visit our real life bookshop without fear of being eviscerated or something awful.
• 5:30
  Louise Ward: So, um, that was the, the genesis of it.
• 5:33
  Louise Ward: And then we just really played with the experiences that we've had in real life of being coppers and booksellers and, um, created the story through that.
• 5:41
  Louise Ward: Hence, uh, a bit of confusion.
• 5:43
  Louise Ward: Yeah.
• 5:43
  Louise Ward: Over the names, but we thought it was just a bit of a giggle to begin with.
• 5:46
  Louise Ward: We didn't know it would really go anywhere.
• 5:48
  Louise Ward: And about halfway through we thought, no, we've got something here.
• 5:51
  Louise Ward: And by then we were so invested, I think, in what we created that we didn't really want to change it.
• 5:56
  Gareth Ward: Yes.
• 5:56
  Gareth Ward: We just, we just lent into the fact that it was, you know, to start with, it was a joke on ourselves.
• 6:01
  Gareth Ward: And then once it started to become actually quite good, we thought, oh, we'll just lean into it because everyone's gonna recognize it's our bookshop anyway.
• 6:07
  Gareth Ward: So we just have fun with it.
• 6:09
  Gareth Ward: So, so I guess in the book, the two characters, um, Garth and Eloise, um, their ex-cop, they've come to New Zealand for a reason that sort of later becomes apparent.
• 6:18
  Gareth Ward: Um, and they're running this bookshop in Havelock North when.
• 6:22
  Gareth Ward: Sort of a, a cold case falls into their lap that they start investigating and at the same time, this sort of serial killer nemesis from the past starts intruded into their present.
• 6:31
  Gareth Ward: So a literary
• 6:32
  Madeleine Cleary: agent, which made me laugh.
• 6:33
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes.
• 6:34
  Gareth Ward: Yeah.
• 6:34
  Gareth Ward: Yeah.
• 6:35
  Gareth Ward: We were, I mean, the, the whole, because it was set in a bookshop, we thought we'd go with lots of literary themes and mentioned lots of authors and things like that.
• 6:41
  Gareth Ward: Because David
• 6:42
  Madeleine Cleary: Williams, I remember
• 6:43
  Gareth Ward: one time because it's cozy crime, it, you know, it's supposed to be a little bit tongue in cheek, a little bit funny.
• 6:48
  Gareth Ward: It's not like a.
• 6:48
  Gareth Ward: Procedure where you've gotta be really serious.
• 6:51
  Gareth Ward: So we just thought we'd have fun with it.
• 6:52
  Gareth Ward: Really.
• 6:52
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 6:53
  Louise Ward: The humor's a major part of it.
• 6:54
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah, and that's what I loved about it.
• 6:56
  Madeleine Cleary: And why do you think readers these days are gravitating towards cozy crime?
• 7:02
  Madeleine Cleary: Garris?
• 7:02
  Madeleine Cleary: Do you have any insights into that?
• 7:05
  Gareth Ward: I, I think it's'cause the world's so messed up.
• 7:07
  Gareth Ward: Basically, I think the world is going to hell of the hand basket.
• 7:11
  Gareth Ward: I think people just wanna escape for a little bit and they could do that in a book.
• 7:14
  Gareth Ward: So I think that's probably the the reason.
• 7:16
  Gareth Ward: And we've had people coming to the bookshop and say, this is exactly the book that I needed at this moment, because it just gave me a bit of a lift.
• 7:23
  Madeleine Cleary: Are you finding that people are coming to your bookshop because of the book?
• 7:27
  Madeleine Cleary: Are they on, like, are they touring to your bookshop?
• 7:31
  Louise Ward: What happened to you this morning?
• 7:32
  Gareth Ward: Oh yeah.
• 7:33
  Gareth Ward: I just, I just popped into the bookshop, so I was transferring books where I, the bookshop to the, the Havelock one.
• 7:38
  Gareth Ward: Uh, and there was a lady from Sydney who I don't think she'd come all the way to our bookshop, you know, just from Sydney, just for that.
• 7:44
  Gareth Ward: But she said, I, I had to make sure that I came into the bookshop.
• 7:47
  Gareth Ward: So we signed her a copy and had a photo with her, so, so yeah, we are getting a few destination tourists, which is lovely.
• 7:54
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh, that's amazing.
• 7:54
  Madeleine Cleary: So, um, I suppose I wanna go back in time a little bit to your early start because I think the story behind the story for you both is really, really important.
• 8:04
  Madeleine Cleary: This one,'cause it is so much of your personal stories are inside this.
• 8:08
  Madeleine Cleary: So can you give us an insight about what's true, what.
• 8:12
  Madeleine Cleary: Maybe you like, did Louise, did you actually bust a literary agent?
• 8:16
  Madeleine Cleary: Help out and, and I'm quote this, um, to remove the inadequate scribblings from the literary canon, which I love.
• 8:25
  Louise Ward: No, not quite.
• 8:26
  Louise Ward: I mean, that's just a joke about, you know, I mean we, we, we've got a wonderful industry.
• 8:30
  Louise Ward: The book selling industry is amazing and it's collegial, uh, and, um.
• 8:36
  Louise Ward: The ecosystem of writers, publishers, booksellers.
• 8:40
  Louise Ward: It's, it is a wonderful, uh, world in which to live.
• 8:43
  Louise Ward: But you know, there is a bit of literary snobbery out there, so it's just a little bit of a thumb thumbed nose at that kind of thing.
• 8:49
  Louise Ward: So, no, I've never busted a literary agent, serial killer.
• 8:52
  Gareth Ward: But you haven't arrested someone for murderer, which is,
• 8:53
  Louise Ward: yeah, we did turn up one time.
• 8:55
  Louise Ward: This is, well, I mean, it's decades ago, but, um.
• 8:59
  Louise Ward: Turned up just in a panda army and the guy I was on shift with and, um, a chap had murdered his wife and it was quite elderly.
• 9:09
  Louise Ward: And, um, also directed us to another home where he had also taken out his elderly wife's boyfriend who she'd been having an affair with.
• 9:19
  Louise Ward: So it was this very elderly person, love triangle, which is, um, yeah, yeah.
• 9:24
  Louise Ward: Kind of awful.
• 9:26
  Louise Ward: And, um.
• 9:27
  Louise Ward: We, yeah, we arrested him because we had to at the scene, you know, but of course then you, you call it in and CID, criminal investigation department come in and re-arrest him just to keep the chain clean.
• 9:39
  Louise Ward: So that was us out of it.
• 9:40
  Louise Ward: Never had anything to do with it again.
• 9:42
  Louise Ward: So you just, uh, when you plug, you kind of just, um, first responders argue and Yeah.
• 9:47
  Louise Ward: Gatekeepers for a bit.
• 9:48
  Gareth Ward: So, so lots of, so the actual sort of crime side of the, of the stories is completely fictitious.
• 9:55
  Gareth Ward: 'cause we were ex-co you know, there is a, a realism to the way we think, the way we investate or the way we, the way the characters investigate, um, the way they think.
• 10:05
  Gareth Ward: Um, you know, and, and sort of, it, it is quite realistic in that respect.
• 10:11
  Madeleine Cleary: I.
• 10:11
  Madeleine Cleary: And I think it's important for crime writers to get it right as well.
• 10:13
  Madeleine Cleary: I know that a lot of riders do go and seek a consultation with, with exco like yourselves or with current day Police, and I think it's important to get the facts right, isn't it?
• 10:26
  Gareth Ward: I think so, I think it is probably more important than police procedure.
• 10:29
  Gareth Ward: Mm-hmm.
• 10:29
  Gareth Ward: In our sort of stuff, you, you can bend the rules a bit, but we did, we have contacted various, um, police officers, um, medical professionals and veterinary professionals and all sorts to, to get specific details Right.
• 10:40
  Gareth Ward: Or at least so we know what they are.
• 10:42
  Gareth Ward: And then if we choose to like just bend them a little bit for the sake of story, at least we know what we're doing is, is sort of, you know.
• 10:47
  Gareth Ward: Correct dish.
• 10:48
  Louise Ward: Mm-hmm.
• 10:48
  Louise Ward: And people are keen to help.
• 10:50
  Louise Ward: You know, I don't think writers should ever be, uh, worried about that.
• 10:53
  Louise Ward: If they've got a contact or they know someone who knows someone.
• 10:56
  Louise Ward: Just roll with that because people would like you to get it right.
• 10:59
  Louise Ward: I think, you know, it's nice.
• 11:00
  Louise Ward: Yeah, absolutely.
• 11:02
  Louise Ward: Rather than complain about it afterwards.
• 11:03
  Louise Ward: Why do these crime writers just make stuff up all the time?
• 11:06
  Madeleine Cleary: No, exactly.
• 11:07
  Madeleine Cleary: And actually I had some advice from, um, a writer recently.
• 11:11
  Madeleine Cleary: Apparently you can contact media, um, the media teams in.
• 11:15
  Madeleine Cleary: Different, like in Australia, obviously we've got different police forces you can reach out to the Victoria Police force, their media team and, and ask them to consult things and isn't that great?
• 11:23
  Madeleine Cleary: I'm sure there are, there are other things in New Zealand and across other states as well.
• 11:27
  Madeleine Cleary: So, um, definitely lots of tools out there to get to get that right.
• 11:31
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, so what drew you, so you obviously living in the uk, um, police officers and then you decide, oh, um, we're gonna move across the other side of the world and, and open a bookshop.
• 11:41
  Madeleine Cleary: What, tell us a story about that.
• 11:45
  Louise Ward: Um, my, I was teaching in the uk.
• 11:48
  Louise Ward: You, you were in it then.
• 11:49
  Yeah.
• 11:50
  Louise Ward: Our children were quite little and uh, my brother moved out here and he'd been out for a few years and we thought, well, we better go and visit.
• 11:57
  Louise Ward: And we came out in the summer and then we came the year after, or a couple of years after in the winter.
• 12:03
  Louise Ward: And it was just like paradise, you know, compared.
• 12:06
  Louise Ward: There's nothing wrong with the uk.
• 12:07
  Louise Ward: We're actually living in quite a nice county.
• 12:09
  Louise Ward: Mm-hmm.
• 12:09
  Louise Ward: Weren't we, you know, a nice rural, rural county, but it just seemed there were, there was more opportunity, the weather was better.
• 12:15
  Louise Ward: Um, the people were a bit more chilled out and, and, um, just really living their lives and we just sought opportunities for ourselves and our kids.
• 12:23
  Louise Ward: So we moved over here and I was teaching here in Hastings for quite a while, and initially Gareth wanted to do nothing.
• 12:29
  Louise Ward: You were gonna be a beach bomb, weren't you?
• 12:31
  Louise Ward: Yes.
• 12:32
  Louise Ward: How did that work out?
• 12:33
  Gareth Ward: Well, it didn't'cause our house sale in the UK fell through, so I had to get a job it
• 12:37
  to work.
• 12:38
  Gareth Ward: Yeah.
• 12:38
  Gareth Ward: Which was terrible.
• 12:39
  Gareth Ward: So I got a job in it and then the bookshop in the village came up for sale.
• 12:42
  Gareth Ward: It was like, I went down, I spoke to the owner and she said, don't buy this bookshop'cause it's a complete dog.
• 12:47
  Gareth Ward: But we thought we could turn it around.
• 12:49
  Gareth Ward: And so we, uh, we bought it anyway and against all advice.
• 12:53
  Gareth Ward: And, uh, yeah, we, we did make a, a go of it and then, uh, then I got.
• 12:57
  Gareth Ward: Became a published author, and then yeah, a couple of years ago we decided to write together and here we are.
• 13:02
  Gareth Ward: Okay.
• 13:02
  Madeleine Cleary: You have just skipped over a whole bunch of stuff, so
• 13:05
  Gareth Ward: Yes, yes.
• 13:06
  Madeleine Cleary: I wanna dive into some of this.
• 13:08
  Madeleine Cleary: Okay.
• 13:08
  Madeleine Cleary: So you, so you bought the bookshop first, so that was, that was before you decided to start writing?
• 13:14
  Madeleine Cleary: Or where had you been writing this whole time?
• 13:16
  Gareth Ward: Oh, I'd, I'd always been right.
• 13:17
  Gareth Ward: I've always written really all my life.
• 13:19
  Gareth Ward: Um, you know, I had a bit of a hiatus when the kids were very little, but, um, I've always written, I've belonged to various writers groups.
• 13:26
  Gareth Ward: Um, and then I think in 2015 I entered, um, sort of a, a manuscript into a, a, a story competition called the Storylines Te Doura Award, and it won that competition.
• 13:36
  Gareth Ward: And because of that I got a publishing contract with Walker Books Australia.
• 13:40
  Madeleine Cleary: Amazing.
• 13:41
  Madeleine Cleary: So, hang on.
• 13:41
  Madeleine Cleary: Is this the first competition you've ever entered?
• 13:44
  Gareth Ward: Yeah, it was, I think actually, yeah,
• 13:46
  Madeleine Cleary: it's a good strike rate.
• 13:47
  Madeleine Cleary: Often there's, you know
• 13:51
  Gareth Ward: it when Zealand.
• 13:54
  Gareth Ward: In the uk you have to get, you can't submit to publishers, you have to get an agent, and that's terrifically difficult.
• 14:01
  Gareth Ward: Um, but over here, you, you know, a lot of the publishers will accept submissions or they will have certain windows when they will accept, uh, accept.
• 14:10
  Gareth Ward: Um, submission.
• 14:10
  Gareth Ward: So I I, I was just starting to write the novel that the, became the Trade on the Thief.
• 14:14
  Gareth Ward: And I thought, well, what can I do because of, you know, differently to make this one work?
• 14:18
  Gareth Ward: And so I actually did an online writing course'cause we had the bookshop so I couldn't go.
• 14:22
  Gareth Ward: And I was sort of a residential one.
• 14:23
  Gareth Ward: So I did that and the novel came out of that writing course and then it won the competition.
• 14:27
  Gareth Ward: And that's really where everything took off.
• 14:30
  Gareth Ward: And I think once you've got one under your belt, it becomes a, you know, it's still hard work becomes a little bit easier'cause people at least read your manuscript rather than sitting on the slush pile.
• 14:38
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 14:39
  Madeleine Cleary: And what about you, Louise?
• 14:40
  Madeleine Cleary: How, how did you come to writing?
• 14:41
  Madeleine Cleary: Had you always been interested?
• 14:43
  Madeleine Cleary: Because I noticed you've got a degree in English literature.
• 14:45
  Madeleine Cleary: Obviously you're a teacher as well.
• 14:47
  Madeleine Cleary: Has writing always been something that you've wanted to do?
• 14:50
  Louise Ward: Yeah, I've always wanted to, but I've never done it.
• 14:54
  Louise Ward: I've written a lot of nonfiction articles for newspapers and, but a lot of book reviewing.
• 14:59
  Louise Ward: Um, I think when you can get your head around words like that and, uh.
• 15:04
  Louise Ward: I'm quite articulate in the, in the way that I can express things, but I'd never really thought of fiction writing.
• 15:10
  Louise Ward: And so it was Gareth's idea,'cause you like doing stuff together with me.
• 15:15
  Louise Ward: And, um, we thought we'd just give it a crack.
• 15:17
  Louise Ward: Oh, I had actually written that, and I always forget this.
• 15:19
  Louise Ward: I wrote a couple of plays for the kids that I taught.
• 15:22
  Louise Ward: Yeah.
• 15:22
  Louise Ward: So I have actually done that before so I can make a story flow, but I always forget about that for some reason.
• 15:27
  Louise Ward: So, um.
• 15:29
  Louise Ward: Yeah, we just gave it a crack and it seemed to work.
• 15:31
  Louise Ward: Yeah.
• 15:31
  Louise Ward: Yeah.
• 15:32
  Louise Ward: Okay.
• 15:32
  Madeleine Cleary: So who did you both come up with the idea together?
• 15:36
  Madeleine Cleary: 'cause I'm so interested in what it is like writing as a couple.
• 15:40
  Madeleine Cleary: It doesn't, I mean, there are instances where, you know, writers, um.
• 15:45
  Madeleine Cleary: Right.
• 15:45
  Madeleine Cleary: We co-write together, um, thinking like Amy Kaufman and Jay Christophe.
• 15:49
  Madeleine Cleary: And Amy Kaufman is actually a big, um, co-writer and I've listened to her speak about it.
• 15:54
  Madeleine Cleary: And it's, I think, really interesting as a couple though.
• 15:56
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, I, I, it perhaps Graham Simpson and, and ISTs, uh, you know, to, I think about, um, where do you start?
• 16:05
  Madeleine Cleary: Who comes up with the ideas?
• 16:06
  Madeleine Cleary: How do you brainstorm?
• 16:07
  Madeleine Cleary: How do you write?
• 16:08
  Madeleine Cleary: What's the mechanics of it?
• 16:09
  Gareth Ward: I think it was really, it was what do we know about?
• 16:12
  Gareth Ward: And, and, you know, we know about the.
• 16:17
  Gareth Ward: So that's why we decided to write crime, and we went Cozy crime A, because it was popular, and b, because we did want people to come to the bookshop.
• 16:24
  Gareth Ward: So, um, we thought we'd go down that route.
• 16:26
  Madeleine Cleary: That's a very strategic, uh, way to do it actually.
• 16:29
  Madeleine Cleary: I like that.
• 16:30
  Gareth Ward: Yeah.
• 16:31
  Louise Ward: Well, we've, we've spent a long time in this business and it's not an easy business to be in, you know, bookshops are closing all over the place, so we're always thinking about what's next?
• 16:40
  Louise Ward: What can we do?
• 16:41
  Louise Ward: How can we keep this beautiful thing relevant to everybody?
• 16:44
  Louise Ward: And I've digressed away from what you were talking about.
• 16:47
  Louise Ward: So back to you.
• 16:48
  Louise Ward: No,
• 16:48
  Gareth Ward: that, that was, so we thought, well, if we set it, you know, in the bookshop, it's clearly our bookshop, maybe it will attract people and, you know, just be good advertising for the shop.
• 16:57
  Gareth Ward: Um, and then we, I, I can't even remember how we did the first one.
• 17:00
  Gareth Ward: We just started like thrashing some ideas out about, about how it might work.
• 17:05
  Gareth Ward: And then once we'd got the idea of the plot, we pl it chapter by chapter.
• 17:09
  Gareth Ward: So it's written chapter about, so I write Garth chapters.
• 17:12
  Gareth Ward: Louise, I
• 17:13
  Madeleine Cleary: got that.
• 17:13
  Madeleine Cleary: Gareth.
• 17:14
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes, yes, yes.
• 17:14
  Gareth Ward: Louise chapters.
• 17:15
  Gareth Ward: And, um, well, some people don't realize that actually.
• 17:18
  Gareth Ward: It's funny.
• 17:18
  Gareth Ward: Really?
• 17:18
  Gareth Ward: Yeah.
• 17:19
  Gareth Ward: We thought it was quite obvious.
• 17:20
  Gareth Ward: But when we do book talks and that people are like, Ooh, I didn't realize that you,
• 17:25
  Madeleine Cleary: I think the voices are very distinct in Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 17:28
  Gareth Ward: Yeah.
• 17:29
  Gareth Ward: I mean, and we both edit each other's chapters, but, um, but you know, we take.
• 17:33
  Gareth Ward: You know, priority on our chapter.
• 17:35
  Gareth Ward: Um, and we planned out what was gonna happen in each chapter.
• 17:38
  Gareth Ward: Which key plot points had to happen, but then it was up to, you know, to either of us to how that was gonna happen.
• 17:44
  Gareth Ward: So it, so it was a delight because when you are, when I get Louise's chapter, you know, I know what's gonna happen supposedly, but I don't know if I stick to the plan.
• 17:53
  Gareth Ward: Yeah, if you stick to the plan, which doesn't always, isn't always the case, but I dunno how so?
• 17:57
  Gareth Ward: It's like I'm reading a novel at the same time as I'm writing it, which is really great fun because I haven't written six before.
• 18:02
  Gareth Ward: It's a very lonely process, but this one's much more fun.
• 18:05
  Gareth Ward: I
• 18:05
  Madeleine Cleary: can imagine it's, it's having collab collaboration, I think in writing an early draft.
• 18:11
  Madeleine Cleary: I think'cause uh, I mean that's what people have writers groups for, isn't it?
• 18:14
  Madeleine Cleary: To, to have some of that early collaboration.
• 18:16
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, but having that together, writing it together yeah.
• 18:18
  Madeleine Cleary: I think is really interesting.
• 18:20
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 18:21
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, so, okay, so, so you are writing it together.
• 18:25
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, did you have any disagreements when you were in terms of where the plot was going or was it all smooth sailing?
• 18:32
  Louise Ward: Yeah, we don't really have disagreements.
• 18:34
  Louise Ward: We.
• 18:35
  Louise Ward: Plot it out as in as much detail as you can mm-hmm.
• 18:38
  Louise Ward: Without tifying that creative process.
• 18:42
  Louise Ward: But if, if someone's like not sure, they will say, we've always said, park your ego at the door of this, this project.
• 18:49
  Louise Ward: You know, um, Gareth's written six novels before, uh, he's very experienced.
• 18:53
  Louise Ward: He knows a lot more than I do, but that doesn't mean that my ideas aren't valid either, you know?
• 19:00
  Louise Ward: We sit and we plot it all out, and then off we go.
• 19:04
  Gareth Ward: I think, I think both of us just want it to be the best novel it can be.
• 19:07
  Gareth Ward: So yeah, there, there is no ego.
• 19:09
  Gareth Ward: It's just like, is this idea better than the one that we had?
• 19:11
  Gareth Ward: Yes.
• 19:11
  Gareth Ward: Let's go with it.
• 19:12
  Gareth Ward: You know?
• 19:12
  Gareth Ward: And we haven't really had any, um, you know, sticking points.
• 19:16
  Gareth Ward: I, I think the major sticking points is like.
• 19:18
  Gareth Ward: Scar might make some un inappropriate comments that I think are quite funny.
• 19:22
  Gareth Ward: And, and Louise says you can't put that in the book.
• 19:24
  Gareth Ward: So those, those were probably the biggest sticking points I think.
• 19:28
  Gareth Ward: I wish we could
• 19:28
  Madeleine Cleary: see like a, it's like a blooper reel almost.
• 19:31
  Madeleine Cleary: Of those.
• 19:32
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 19:33
  Gareth Ward: Well what I two, I think there was one or two that I said No, we should keep them'cause they are funny.
• 19:36
  Gareth Ward: But yes, quite a few got cut out.
• 19:38
  Gareth Ward: I liked
• 19:38
  Madeleine Cleary: the, um, the, the sort of veiled reference to Rebecca Yaros.
• 19:42
  Madeleine Cleary: I, I'm assuming it was Rebecca Aero's on storm.
• 19:44
  Madeleine Cleary: I have no idea.
• 19:45
  Madeleine Cleary: Inflamed idea talking
• 19:46
  Gareth Ward: about, oh, that
• 19:47
  Madeleine Cleary: was in this,
• 19:47
  Louise Ward: that was in book Dragon Heat.
• 19:49
  Gareth Ward: Is it?
• 19:49
  Gareth Ward: What?
• 19:50
  Gareth Ward: No, I don't, no.
• 19:51
  Gareth Ward: I've got no idea.
• 19:51
  Gareth Ward: No.
• 19:55
  Louise Ward: Yeah.
• 19:55
  Louise Ward: Dragon's not
• 19:56
  actually side
• 19:57
  Madeleine Cleary: side note on that, um, what are New Zealand does reading at the moment?
• 20:02
  Louise Ward: A lot of romance.
• 20:03
  Louise Ward: Mm-hmm.
• 20:03
  Louise Ward: Yeah.
• 20:04
  Louise Ward: I think again, that's the escapism thing, isn't it?
• 20:06
  Louise Ward: So we had, we actually had midnight launch party for that Onyx Storm course, the book course that came out of, um,
• 20:12
  Gareth Ward: and it was great fun.
• 20:12
  Gareth Ward: It was, you know, we had people dressed up really into it.
• 20:15
  Gareth Ward: It was really, really cool.
• 20:17
  Gareth Ward: Yeah.
• 20:17
  Gareth Ward: So, you know, fair play.
• 20:18
  Louise Ward: Yeah.
• 20:19
  Louise Ward: So a lot of the romance, I think still a lot of crime.
• 20:21
  Louise Ward: I think crime never really goes out of, out of business.
• 20:24
  Louise Ward: Mm-hmm.
• 20:24
  Louise Ward: Um, because it's something that most people won't do.
• 20:29
  Louise Ward: You know, everyone's got a line and 90% of the population won't cross that line.
• 20:34
  Louise Ward: So they're just fascinated to see how criminals tick really.
• 20:37
  Louise Ward: 'cause it's not them.
• 20:38
  Louise Ward: But yeah.
• 20:38
  Louise Ward: What else is, uh, are there trends, are graphic novels for the kids still?
• 20:42
  Louise Ward: Mm-hmm.
• 20:43
  Louise Ward: A lot of them.
• 20:43
  Louise Ward: And um, yeah, that kind of thing.
• 20:45
  Louise Ward: Yeah.
• 20:46
  Madeleine Cleary: I think it's interesting'cause we opened, um, when we, we opened a bookshop, um, not my husband and I, but um, we were opening up a bookstore, um, as some of the staff and we opened just when 50 Shades of Gray became massive.
• 21:00
  Yeah.
• 21:00
  Madeleine Cleary: And I remember a lot of perhaps disparaging comments about 50 Shades of Gray.
• 21:04
  Madeleine Cleary: I mean, personally, I've never read it, but, um, what it did is it opened up.
• 21:09
  Madeleine Cleary: Markets, um, in readers.
• 21:11
  Madeleine Cleary: Like they read that and then they want more.
• 21:13
  Madeleine Cleary: And that's not a bad thing, is it?
• 21:14
  Madeleine Cleary: To have, um, people reading?
• 21:17
  Louise Ward: No, no, I don't think so.
• 21:18
  Louise Ward: And I think 50 Shades.
• 21:20
  Louise Ward: We didn't sell a lot of that.
• 21:22
  Louise Ward: Interesting.
• 21:22
  Louise Ward: And I thinking that was really, that was because, um, because we're an independent bookstore, people were either embarrassed to come and ask for it in an in independent bookstore.
• 21:31
  Louise Ward: 'cause they think you're a bit snooty.
• 21:32
  Louise Ward: So there's been, I think there's been a little bit of a breaking down of that, that ba barrier, that independent bookstores are, um, almost gatekeepers of, you know, literary stuff.
• 21:42
  Louise Ward: Mm.
• 21:42
  Louise Ward: You know, so I'm glad that that's, that's not the case.
• 21:45
  Louise Ward: 'cause you know, we wanna sell Rebecca Ro and yeah, we do all of that just as much as anybody does.
• 21:49
  Louise Ward: We wanna have fun with it too.
• 21:51
  Gareth Ward: I think when 50 shares came out, we'd only just opened the shop.
• 21:53
  Gareth Ward: I believe.
• 21:53
  Gareth Ward: So, I think we we're probably a little bit behind the eight ball on it as well.
• 21:56
  Gareth Ward: Yeah, maybe.
• 21:57
  Gareth Ward: Yeah.
• 21:58
  Gareth Ward: Yeah.
• 22:00
  Gareth Ward: I've forgotten what the question was, but I thought, oh, it was just
• 22:01
  Madeleine Cleary: about New Zealanders and reading, and I, I, I had this vision that New Zealanders, I don't know why I always thought I imagined them reading very highbrow New Zealand literary fiction.
• 22:11
  Louise Ward: I'll do that too.
• 22:12
  Louise Ward: Yeah.
• 22:14
  Louise Ward: So we've got our Ham New Zealand book awards coming up in May.
• 22:18
  Louise Ward: Mm-hmm.
• 22:18
  Louise Ward: And, um, you know, lots of, lots of eyes of readers will be on, on that.
• 22:23
  Louise Ward: So Yeah, there is, you know, because we've got the university presses that produce really, um, yes.
• 22:28
  Yeah.
• 22:28
  Louise Ward: Quality literature.
• 22:30
  Louise Ward: Um, and, uh, out of there.
• 22:32
  Louise Ward: Writing programs as well.
• 22:34
  Gareth Ward: Yeah.
• 22:34
  Louise Ward: So yeah, there is that.
• 22:35
  Louise Ward: But, you know,
• 22:36
  Gareth Ward: but it's very broad spectrum, like anywhere really, you know, it's, you know, we have our sci-fi fantasy corner, and we sell, we sell a lot of sci-fi fancy, just because Kat, who people might know as Kitty from the book, um, you know, that's her thing.
• 22:47
  Gareth Ward: So she's, she's big into that.
• 22:48
  Gareth Ward: So, you know, it's, it, a lot of it is hand sales, the stuff we sell, and then it's, you know, and what
• 22:53
  Louise Ward: you become known for as a bookstore.
• 22:54
  Louise Ward: Yeah.
• 22:54
  Louise Ward: Yeah.
• 22:55
  Louise Ward: What's
• 22:55
  Gareth Ward: reviewed, you know, if there's a review on the radio, suddenly everyone wants that book, so it's, yeah.
• 22:59
  Gareth Ward: But it's, it's a very broad church.
• 23:01
  Madeleine Cleary: Hmm.
• 23:01
  Madeleine Cleary: That's wonderful.
• 23:02
  Madeleine Cleary: I know, yeah.
• 23:03
  Madeleine Cleary: I wanna talk about bookstores and community, but, um, so going back, okay, so you've got your first draft, um, of, so this is your first book, um, de Girl Gone.
• 23:13
  Madeleine Cleary: What do you do then?
• 23:14
  Madeleine Cleary: Like, are you editing it?
• 23:16
  Madeleine Cleary: How do you what?
• 23:17
  Madeleine Cleary: And obviously Gareth, you've.
• 23:19
  Madeleine Cleary: Previously published books.
• 23:20
  Madeleine Cleary: So you've got an in to the publishing, is that what you do?
• 23:24
  Madeleine Cleary: You use that?
• 23:25
  Gareth Ward: So we, we, yeah, we edited it.
• 23:27
  Gareth Ward: Um, well the first thing we did was actually let the staff read it because we hadn't told them we were writing a book that they might be in.
• 23:33
  Gareth Ward: So we, we sent them an email.
• 23:35
  Gareth Ward: Um.
• 23:36
  Gareth Ward: Saying, oh, we're gonna have a staff meeting, but just to have a lot more staff, not the other one, which is quite unusual, so there's nothing to worry about, but just come up to our house and we'll have a chat about stuff.
• 23:45
  Gareth Ward: And they were, they were very worried.
• 23:47
  Gareth Ward: They set up a WhatsApp group and then, and then, so when we brought'em here, said, we may have written this book and you may be in it.
• 23:52
  Gareth Ward: They were so relieved it wasn't anything worse that they just won't with it.
• 23:55
  Gareth Ward: So we let them read it and took their feedback and made a couple of changes on that.
• 23:59
  Gareth Ward: Uh, and then once we were, you know, we went quite particularly through the editing, and then once we were happy with it, we, we absolutely cheated and abused our connections and sent it to people at the, um, the sort of four big publishers that we knew and said, can you get this to the right person?
• 24:14
  Gareth Ward: And they did.
• 24:15
  Gareth Ward: And two of them wanted it, two of them didn't, which is, you know, I think it's, you know, it's turned out to be a massive success, but I think it's interesting that, you know, even then two publishers just said, no.
• 24:26
  Gareth Ward: Um, and that's just what you're up against.
• 24:28
  Gareth Ward: You know, a lot of it is luck, in all honesty.
• 24:30
  Gareth Ward: A lot, a lot of writing is getting the right book at the right place at the right time.
• 24:34
  Gareth Ward: You know, if, if you know these two publishers had just signed a cozy crime, then they wouldn't have considered it, so,
• 24:40
  Madeleine Cleary: exactly.
• 24:40
  Madeleine Cleary: We don't know what goes on inside those acquisitions.
• 24:43
  Gareth Ward: A been the right place at the right time and, and then, yeah, there was a very minor bidding war and we, we ended up going with Penguin, which we're absolutely delighted about, so, yeah.
• 24:51
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah, they've been amazing.
• 24:52
  Madeleine Cleary: Let's not call it a minor bidding.
• 24:53
  Madeleine Cleary: What you just say?
• 24:54
  Madeleine Cleary: It's a bidding, it's an auction.
• 24:56
  Gareth Ward: No, it was, it was very minor.
• 24:57
  Gareth Ward: Really?
• 24:57
  Gareth Ward: It was, but it was still nice that there was one, it was nice that two PE two wanted, two people wanted it.
• 25:03
  Gareth Ward: Yeah.
• 25:04
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah, yeah,
• 25:04
  Gareth Ward: yeah.
• 25:05
  Madeleine Cleary: And so Louise, as a newcomer to the industry, like in terms of the, the author writing industry, how did you find the process of, of going to publication?
• 25:14
  Louise Ward: Um, a lot more intense perhaps than, than I'd realized.
• 25:18
  Louise Ward: Um, yeah, having seen it from a book seller's point of view and, uh, just watching what Gareth had been through, I think every experience with a different publisher is different.
• 25:31
  Louise Ward: So Walker books, Bateman books that he had his fantasy novels with, and that now with Penguin, I think they've all been different, but yeah, there's so much more to it.
• 25:38
  Louise Ward: And, um, the editing process is so, uh, huge and intense and, um.
• 25:44
  Louise Ward: That's another place where you have to park your ego at the door, isn't it?
• 25:47
  Louise Ward: You know, if someone's saying like, this whole paragraph, what's that for?
• 25:50
  Louise Ward: You know?
• 25:50
  Louise Ward: And they, they have to be that direct because we've all got a job to do and you go, oh, well, yeah, actually it doesn't serve any purpose.
• 25:59
  Louise Ward: So, um, yeah, so I, that's, that's my big learnings really is how the crafting of a novel
• 26:05
  Mm.
• 26:06
  Louise Ward: That, um, is gonna be the best it can possibly be.
• 26:09
  Gareth Ward: Mm-hmm.
• 26:09
  Louise Ward: Yeah.
• 26:10
  Gareth Ward: I think you're also very nervous when it came, the book came out about what, how it was gonna review and things like
• 26:14
  Madeleine Cleary: that.
• 26:15
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 26:15
  Madeleine Cleary: Well, let's talk about that then, because I mean, it has done so well.
• 26:18
  Madeleine Cleary: You must be just, you know, blown away, or was it something you were expecting?
• 26:22
  Madeleine Cleary: No,
• 26:23
  Louise Ward: no, I didn't know.
• 26:24
  Louise Ward: I mean, I suppose the fact that two people wanted to publish it should give you, um, some confidence and it did, you know, and we thought, well, this is a great story, but does it just crack us up and does it just crack up that publisher because she's already in the book industry as well?
• 26:38
  Louise Ward: Is it gonna translate outside of that?
• 26:41
  Louise Ward: But I think it has, I think people have liked the warmth in it, the humor and that real, it's in the community.
• 26:48
  Louise Ward: There's people wandering in and out who you're gonna meet in the supermarket.
• 26:51
  Louise Ward: You know, it's very real for a lot of people.
• 26:53
  Louise Ward: So, but yeah, with the, with the reviewing thing, I was very nervous about that because you are putting something out there in the world.
• 27:00
  Louise Ward: You think, well, I think I can do this, but what if everyone thinks it's rubbish?
• 27:04
  Louise Ward: You know?
• 27:04
  Louise Ward: And I think that's, it's a legitimate concern, isn't it?
• 27:07
  Louise Ward: Mm-hmm.
• 27:07
  Louise Ward: Because nobody wants to, no, hold up this.
• 27:09
  Louise Ward: Baby that they've birthed.
• 27:11
  Louise Ward: And some people say that's ugly.
• 27:13
  Gareth Ward: And it is a very personal process, isn't it?
• 27:15
  Gareth Ward: You have, yeah.
• 27:16
  Gareth Ward: And you know any, Chris, like even in the editing you criticism of your right.
• 27:19
  Gareth Ward: It hurts.
• 27:20
  Gareth Ward: But yeah, it's, it's much worse when you get a bad review.
• 27:23
  Gareth Ward: But I, I guess,'cause I've done a few before, it's just like some people are gonna like it and some people aren't and you just have more people like it than don't.
• 27:29
  Gareth Ward: Yeah.
• 27:29
  Gareth Ward: But I.
• 27:30
  Gareth Ward: And we thought it would be successful, but as booksellers, we know that they're, you know, every so often there's, there's a book that everyone says this is gonna be the next big thing, and it does absolutely nothing.
• 27:38
  Gareth Ward: That's right.
• 27:38
  Gareth Ward: So there's always that as well.
• 27:40
  Gareth Ward: Uh, but I think it took everyone by surprise.
• 27:42
  Gareth Ward: I mean, we've, we, you know, we, in our own hearts, we were convinced that it was a really great book and it was very funny.
• 27:47
  Gareth Ward: But like you said, you dunno if that's gonna translate.
• 27:49
  Gareth Ward: And so, uh, I think it took, you know, it, it is taken everyone by surprise.
• 27:53
  Gareth Ward: Absolutely.
• 27:53
  Gareth Ward: How well it's gone and how it's taken off.
• 27:56
  Gareth Ward: And we're delighted that it has, we've had so many lovely emails from people who we've never met.
• 28:00
  Gareth Ward: Said, I loved your book.
• 28:02
  Gareth Ward: I love book two and, you know, just really nice things.
• 28:04
  Gareth Ward: So it, so it's, it is been a lovely, lovely process.
• 28:08
  Louise Ward: But for the purpose of your podcast and for, for your audience, I think, um.
• 28:13
  Louise Ward: It depends on how much you want to get into the reviews.
• 28:17
  Louise Ward: Like, I don't wanna read the bad ones.
• 28:18
  Mm-hmm.
• 28:19
  I,
• 28:19
  Louise Ward: I don't see the purpose'cause there are people who just won't get it and they, they are out there and so I won't go on good reads.
• 28:26
  Louise Ward: I think that's just is gonna screw your head unless you filter into the five and four star reviews, in which case it's lovely.
• 28:34
  Louise Ward: Um.
• 28:35
  Louise Ward: And the publisher actually said, now how do you want, do you want all of them?
• 28:38
  Louise Ward: Do you want just the good ones?
• 28:40
  Louise Ward: And so Gareth will have all of them and I'll say, just the good ones.
• 28:44
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh,
• 28:44
  Louise Ward: I
• 28:44
  Madeleine Cleary: think that's great.
• 28:45
  Gareth Ward: I think it's harder when it's like a, maybe a magazine review or something like that, where quite clearly the persons who, who's reviewed it, doesn't like your genre of book anyway, so they're never gonna give you a good read.
• 28:55
  Gareth Ward: Why did you do that?
• 28:56
  Gareth Ward: That then?
• 28:56
  Gareth Ward: Yeah.
• 28:57
  Gareth Ward: Why didn't you choose a fantasy book if you don't read Fan?
• 28:59
  Gareth Ward: Yes.
• 28:59
  Gareth Ward: You know, you know, if you only read literary fiction, you're not gonna really get a great deal out of it.
• 29:03
  Gareth Ward: So, you know, sometimes that happens.
• 29:05
  Gareth Ward: You just have to suck it up and move on.
• 29:06
  Gareth Ward: Really?
• 29:07
  Gareth Ward: Yeah.
• 29:07
  Madeleine Cleary: Sometimes in those sort of official reviews as well, I say official, um, because they're, you know, ones that have more credence I suppose, people pay attention to.
• 29:16
  Madeleine Cleary: It's actually quite interesting'cause they, they will pull apart certain things and they actually do make you see.
• 29:22
  Madeleine Cleary: Insights that perhaps you didn't really know and you go, oh, actually, that they might have a point.
• 29:26
  Madeleine Cleary: So this is what some authors have told me.
• 29:28
  Madeleine Cleary: They actually don't mind a cri a critique, uh, on their books when they're in these types of reviews because it's, it's quite, actually, actually a bit of a privilege to be critiqued as well, um, in this kind of industry.
• 29:41
  Louise Ward: It is, it is.
• 29:41
  Louise Ward: If you.
• 29:43
  Louise Ward: If you value that person's experience.
• 29:46
  Louise Ward: Mm-hmm.
• 29:46
  Louise Ward: Mm-hmm.
• 29:47
  Louise Ward: You know, not what someone just saying it's rubbish for the sake of saying it's rubbish.
• 29:50
  Gareth Ward: That's right.
• 29:50
  Gareth Ward: I've got an AI to write it for them.
• 29:52
  Gareth Ward: Yeah.
• 29:52
  Gareth Ward: Yeah.
• 29:53
  Gareth Ward: I mean, contrary for the sake of being contrary, you know, just because, yeah.
• 29:56
  Gareth Ward: But yeah, you, you know, it's all part of the process.
• 29:59
  Gareth Ward: It's like, you know, rejection letters are all part of the process.
• 30:01
  Gareth Ward: You, you know, I mean, every rejection hurts, but you just have to, you know.
• 30:05
  Gareth Ward: Be miserable for a couple of days, then get over it and move on.
• 30:08
  Madeleine Cleary: Have you had many rejections, Gareth?
• 30:10
  Gareth Ward: Yes.
• 30:12
  Madeleine Cleary: We love a rejection story on the book deal, so please tell us.
• 30:17
  Gareth Ward: Oh, well, um, I think just like when I was started out, you know, because as I said in the UK you've gotta go to agencies, so you know, you, you'd send your manuscript of many, many agencies and it will get rejected.
• 30:28
  Gareth Ward: And I had.
• 30:30
  Gareth Ward: Oh, this would've been about 35 years ago.
• 30:32
  Gareth Ward: I, I had to, I'd written a sci-fi novel, which to be honest now looking back wasn't that good.
• 30:37
  Gareth Ward: But there was one agent who was considering it and they gave it to one of their auth sci-fi authors who read it and just said no.
• 30:44
  Gareth Ward: So that, that
• 30:46
  Madeleine Cleary: awful When it comes through another author as well.
• 30:48
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah,
• 30:48
  Gareth Ward: yeah.
• 30:49
  Gareth Ward: So, um, you know, but you just have to, you know, I've always been of the opinion that.
• 30:54
  Gareth Ward: When, when you write something good enough, it will find its way.
• 30:57
  Gareth Ward: So I, I always like, I belong to lots of writers groups and I, I always think there's two sorts of people.
• 31:01
  Gareth Ward: There's the, the sort of person who just wants to hear how good their writing is, and there's the sort of person who wants to hear.
• 31:08
  Gareth Ward: And there's a sort of person who wants to hear, what could I do to get better?
• 31:11
  Gareth Ward: And I was, I've always been that.
• 31:13
  Gareth Ward: So I, I've always, although I, you know, it's, it's a pain when you do get rejections, it's, it's just like, well, maybe I need to do some more work.
• 31:20
  Gareth Ward: Mm-hmm.
• 31:20
  Gareth Ward: But like, you know, with this one, we got two rejections.
• 31:23
  Gareth Ward: We got two acceptances, and, you know, it's turned out to be an absolute, you know, belter.
• 31:28
  Gareth Ward: So you, you, you've just gotta suck it up really and move on.
• 31:31
  Madeleine Cleary: That's right.
• 31:32
  Madeleine Cleary: That's a good top tip.
• 31:33
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, it, it's, but
• 31:35
  Gareth Ward: you know, you've gotta also think, well, why, why didn't they like it?
• 31:38
  Gareth Ward: Mm-hmm.
• 31:38
  Gareth Ward: Is this something I need to consider?
• 31:40
  Gareth Ward: If they give you, you know, quite often you don't get any feedback, but, um, yeah, and the other thing I would say as well is if you get someone AB absolutely loves it and giving you an absolute glowing shout out.
• 31:52
  Gareth Ward: If it's not one of the big publishers, be a bit skeptical.
• 31:54
  Gareth Ward: Mm-hmm.
• 31:55
  You know,
• 31:55
  Gareth Ward: I, when I was in the uk, I, I'd sent this manuscript out to, I dunno, lots of agents and not heard anything back.
• 32:02
  Gareth Ward: And then there was a publisher I sent it to and I got this massive glow review that said, how would they love the characters?
• 32:06
  Gareth Ward: They love this, they love that.
• 32:08
  Gareth Ward: And immediately I was thinking, oh, I'm a bit suspicious because everyone else thought it wasn't that good and it was turned out to be a vanity publisher who was just trying to suck you in to get the money.
• 32:16
  Gareth Ward: So I think, I think, you know, always do your research as well with your publisher.
• 32:20
  Madeleine Cleary: That's really good tip.
• 32:21
  Madeleine Cleary: And I think, um, for those in Australia, we have the Australian Society of Authors, so if you're not sure about a publisher who's making a request, yeah, you can always seek legal advice through them, through the a SA legal, um, just to, to get a sense of what, what they're about.
• 32:37
  Madeleine Cleary: 'cause yes, I know that there are.
• 32:38
  Madeleine Cleary: Quite a lot of vanity publishers out there.
• 32:41
  Madeleine Cleary: I think we've got some great small to mid-size presses Absolutely.
• 32:44
  Madeleine Cleary: In independence in Australia, although, you know, that's been changing.
• 32:47
  Madeleine Cleary: But we do have some really good ones who are very reputable.
• 32:50
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and definitely not vanity.
• 32:51
  Madeleine Cleary: Absolutely.
• 32:52
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 32:52
  Gareth Ward: Yeah.
• 32:53
  Gareth Ward: So, but um, and we've had like people come into the bookshop and they, you know, with, with their, the books that they have got done via, and I won't name them, don't want of us sued, but by, you know, maybe some UK companies.
• 33:05
  Gareth Ward: Uh, and they said, well, yes, it's been produced by a, you know, a proper publisher.
• 33:09
  Gareth Ward: But, you know, we know that that's a, that's a terrible vanity publisher.
• 33:13
  Gareth Ward: And, you know, isn't that
• 33:14
  Madeleine Cleary: heartbreaking?
• 33:15
  Madeleine Cleary: As must it, it's for us
• 33:16
  Gareth Ward: because they, they have spent thousands and thousands and thousands on it.
• 33:19
  Gareth Ward: Um, and, and you know, we just know from the name that it's, um, there's a website isn't there, of um, uh, I can't remember what it's called.
• 33:28
  Gareth Ward: Publisher Beware.
• 33:28
  Gareth Ward: I think it's called Something like that, that lists.
• 33:32
  Gareth Ward: You know, validity publishers and that's always worth checking out as well.
• 33:35
  Madeleine Cleary: I actually got a, recently, a colleague who's outside the industry asked me, oh, how much of your own money are you investing into the publication of your novel?
• 33:43
  Madeleine Cleary: And I said, just my time.
• 33:45
  Madeleine Cleary: You know, you're not putting your own money into it.
• 33:47
  Madeleine Cleary: And I think any publisher that asks you to do that.
• 33:51
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah,
• 33:52
  Louise Ward: absolutely.
• 33:53
  Louise Ward: Be aware of what you're getting into.
• 33:54
  Louise Ward: Yeah.
• 33:55
  Louise Ward: And the outlay, and if you're get it back and what your expectations are, you have to,
• 34:00
  Gareth Ward: there's a couple Zealand publishers who will.
• 34:03
  Gareth Ward: Um, who you sort of, you hybrid.
• 34:05
  Gareth Ward: Yeah, you do give them money, but they're also genuinely good publishers.
• 34:08
  Gareth Ward: So I, but as you say, anybody who's asked you for money immediately, the flag should go up and then you should do a bit more research.
• 34:13
  Gareth Ward: Probably, yes.
• 34:14
  Madeleine Cleary: And maybe if you're just wanting to see it in print and to give a copy your copies to your family, if that's your expectation, then that's fine.
• 34:20
  Madeleine Cleary: That's different, isn't it?
• 34:21
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 34:22
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 34:23
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, so, um.
• 34:25
  Madeleine Cleary: Moving on.
• 34:25
  Madeleine Cleary: So when you released book two, was it different at the really,'cause we've got a lot of group, uh, debut authors in Australia.
• 34:32
  Madeleine Cleary: We've got a bit of a group at the moment.
• 34:34
  Madeleine Cleary: Everyone's now thinking about book two and I think publishers want you to start thinking about book two even before book one's even out.
• 34:40
  Madeleine Cleary: Have you found that process different publishing book two.
• 34:45
  Louise Ward: I suppose the momentum was already there.
• 34:47
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm.
• 34:48
  Louise Ward: In New Zealand, it, uh, our book never dropped out of the top 10 New Zealand fiction.
• 34:52
  Madeleine Cleary: That is amazing.
• 34:53
  Madeleine Cleary: Congratulations.
• 34:54
  Madeleine Cleary: That's just wonderful.
• 34:56
  Louise Ward: Yeah, that's so, it's cool.
• 34:58
  Louise Ward: I mean, it came out last July and it's still there and now it's in the two formats.
• 35:02
  Louise Ward: It's in the trade and the B format just came out as well.
• 35:05
  Louise Ward: So
• 35:05
  Madeleine Cleary: we've actually, and given the churn the amount of.
• 35:06
  Madeleine Cleary: Books that are being released each year, that is really significant.
• 35:10
  Madeleine Cleary: Clearly New Zealanders, they obviously love to have a book set in New Zealand too.
• 35:15
  Louise Ward: Yeah, I think early reviews for this one as well.
• 35:17
  Louise Ward: I just was just so relieved because, um.
• 35:22
  Gareth Ward: It's like the diff difficult second album, isn't it?
• 35:24
  Gareth Ward: Yeah.
• 35:25
  Gareth Ward: You're never quite, particularly if the first one's done so well, you're thinking, you know, if, if the first one's been all right, then the second one only has to be all right.
• 35:31
  Gareth Ward: But if the first one's done really well, you've sort of set the bar for yourself, haven't you, really?
• 35:35
  Gareth Ward: So, yeah.
• 35:36
  Gareth Ward: Yeah.
• 35:36
  Gareth Ward: So the reviews that came up were very good.
• 35:38
  Gareth Ward: So that was, that was a really, well, the
• 35:39
  Louise Ward: first couple of reviews were just like, even better than the first one, and I'm like, oh.
• 35:44
  Louise Ward: Yeah.
• 35:45
  Louise Ward: That's amazing.
• 35:46
  Louise Ward: So yeah, so I, that enabled me to just relax and not have that, you know, the spiral.
• 35:51
  Gareth Ward: Yes.
• 35:51
  Louise Ward: Yeah.
• 35:52
  Gareth Ward: And I think, I think as well, it, it, we basically, the publication date got, because it had done so well, they brought the publication date forward by about three or four months.
• 36:00
  Gareth Ward: So we had less time.
• 36:02
  Gareth Ward: So it was like a real crunch for us to get it done.
• 36:04
  Gareth Ward: Mm-hmm.
• 36:04
  Gareth Ward: And, and so then you are, you haven't had as much time as you'd quite like to, to, to perhaps double check yourself, so, so.
• 36:14
  Louise Ward: And you know what it's like carving out time to write, you know, we've got two bookshops, we've got brilliant staff, so we're not on the shop floor very much anymore.
• 36:21
  Louise Ward: But you've still got all the admin and all the, the business side of things to do as well as, I don't know, Gary's got about 17 projects on the go generally, including being a
• 36:30
  Madeleine Cleary: magician I read too.
• 36:32
  Madeleine Cleary: Exactly.
• 36:32
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 36:33
  Madeleine Cleary: So how do you, how do you cover out the tone?
• 36:35
  Madeleine Cleary: I was just, I was just sitting here thinking about how are you running two businesses, writing books, putting out bestsellers, publicity.
• 36:43
  Madeleine Cleary: Being a magician on the side
• 36:46
  Louise Ward: kind of seven days.
• 36:46
  Louise Ward: Yeah.
• 36:47
  Louise Ward: We, we did, we did realize earlier this year that we hadn't had proper time off from the shop, you know, where you don't touch any of it for about five years or something, you know, not one single day when we've not done something bookshop or writing related.
• 37:03
  Louise Ward: So we did take, was it a whole day?
• 37:05
  Louise Ward: I think we managed maybe like five days.
• 37:07
  Louise Ward: Yeah.
• 37:07
  Louise Ward: And I kept this laptop shot.
• 37:09
  Louise Ward: I didn't even look at it, didn't do anything, and it was wonderful.
• 37:11
  Louise Ward: Um, but you've gotta be really strict with yourself to make sure that you are apportioning your time and not wasting it.
• 37:18
  Gareth Ward: Yeah.
• 37:19
  Louise Ward: Yeah.
• 37:19
  Gareth Ward: I think just because you know, it, it's quite rare that a book takes off.
• 37:23
  Gareth Ward: You know, I've.
• 37:23
  Gareth Ward: What, six before they've done all right, but they haven't like, done anywhere near as well as this.
• 37:28
  Gareth Ward: And so we just, you just have to make the most of it and just like, all right, I'm not gonna sleep for three months.
• 37:34
  Gareth Ward: We do sleep.
• 37:35
  Louise Ward: Well, not so much, but I was waving about the bits of paper.
• 37:38
  Louise Ward: Wasn't I Madeleine, before we went on, before we hit record.
• 37:41
  Louise Ward: But you know, this is how I, I live.
• 37:44
  Louise Ward: So Louise
• 37:45
  Madeleine Cleary: is, um, holding up.
• 37:46
  Madeleine Cleary: Whole bunch of handwritten,
• 37:48
  Louise Ward: my, my handwritten things of what the hell is going on.
• 37:52
  Louise Ward: And we've got a really big one.
• 37:53
  Louise Ward: We've got a year wall planner in the loo because you can't miss it, you know, and you get up in the morning and go, oh, yes.
• 37:58
  Louise Ward: Um, but then you can also see where the gaps are.
• 38:01
  Louise Ward: Oh, I like that.
• 38:02
  Louise Ward: That's a good
• 38:03
  Madeleine Cleary: tip.
• 38:03
  Madeleine Cleary: Put out your planner in the loo.
• 38:05
  Louise Ward: Yeah.
• 38:05
  Louise Ward: Yeah.
• 38:06
  Louise Ward: Isn't it, because you know, you go in there a few times a day.
• 38:08
  Louise Ward: That's right.
• 38:08
  Louise Ward: That's right.
• 38:09
  Louise Ward: Yeah.
• 38:10
  Louise Ward: Um, and yeah, and when you find those gaps, then you go, okay.
• 38:12
  Louise Ward: Is that a rest time or is that, well, actually I could sit and write for an afternoon there, so that's, so when's
• 38:17
  Madeleine Cleary: your next rest time?
• 38:18
  Madeleine Cleary: Because I know you've been so busy.
• 38:21
  Louise Ward: Easy.
• 38:22
  Louise Ward: There isn't one, you know, we sort of grab things where we can, um.
• 38:31
  Louise Ward: Just this last weekend we were down in Wellington.
• 38:34
  Louise Ward: Gareth was selling the books at Armageddon, which is like one of the comic cons.
• 38:37
  Louise Ward: Do you have the
• 38:38
  Armageddon
• 38:39
  Louise Ward: in Australia?
• 38:39
  Louise Ward: Yep.
• 38:40
  Louise Ward: And um, so he was doing that.
• 38:42
  Louise Ward: I was support crew, so I was dropping him off, picking him up.
• 38:45
  Louise Ward: Uh, but our daughter lives down there, so we made sure that we spent time with her in the evenings and we played a nerdy game, you know.
• 38:52
  And
• 38:52
  Louise Ward: then we're off to a festival.
• 38:53
  Louise Ward: But we're gonna go for two nights before we're actually on, before our gig is on the Sunday, and they're putting us up in a nice sort of country, country home.
• 39:02
  Louise Ward: Oh, lovely.
• 39:03
  Louise Ward: So we will have a nice time going and watching everybody else's.
• 39:07
  Louise Ward: So it depends how you relax, I suppose, doesn't it?
• 39:10
  Gareth Ward: Mm-hmm.
• 39:10
  Gareth Ward: That's true.
• 39:11
  Gareth Ward: Active relaxers, I think relaxes probably just'cause we're always doing something, but then you just have to fit your right in when, when you can basically, uh, you know, um, with us,'cause it's chapter about you do get small break.
• 39:22
  Gareth Ward: You know, I've got to do my chapter.
• 39:24
  Gareth Ward: That's on me at the moment.
• 39:25
  Gareth Ward: Yeah.
• 39:25
  Gareth Ward: But Louise doesn't have to do anything until I've done my chapter.
• 39:27
  Gareth Ward: So you, you get a little break from the writing, I suppose.
• 39:30
  Gareth Ward: Yeah.
• 39:30
  Gareth Ward: So
• 39:30
  Louise Ward: our bathroom got clean today because it's not my turn to do the chapter.
• 39:35
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh, I love that.
• 39:36
  Madeleine Cleary: So you're writing book three at the moment then?
• 39:38
  Yeah.
• 39:38
  Madeleine Cleary: Can you tell us anything about,
• 39:41
  um,
• 39:43
  Louise Ward: it will possibly resolve one of the big threads?
• 39:45
  Louise Ward: Mm-hmm.
• 39:46
  Louise Ward: Yeah.
• 39:47
  Gareth Ward: So it'll probably resolve the Pinter thread to a, to a great extent.
• 39:51
  Gareth Ward: Um, uh, we, we were lucky, so we got, we got a two book deal deal with the first book.
• 39:56
  Gareth Ward: So we got, we knew we were gonna do books one, book two, and then just before Christmas Penguin, our editor, publishers, sorry, he contacted us and said, do, do you wanna do two more books?
• 40:05
  Gareth Ward: And we said, yes.
• 40:06
  Gareth Ward: Um, and so they've said, you know, one can be a bookshop, detectives, and the other one could be whatever you want.
• 40:11
  Gareth Ward: Another bookshop, detectives, or something else.
• 40:13
  Gareth Ward: So we're in a really enviable position really, that.
• 40:17
  Gareth Ward: Leave.
• 40:17
  Gareth Ward: This is a trilogy, or write another one, or start a different series and come back to this one.
• 40:22
  Gareth Ward: It's, it's up to us.
• 40:22
  Gareth Ward: So we're Mm.
• 40:23
  Gareth Ward: So that's really cool.
• 40:24
  Gareth Ward: It's a dream.
• 40:24
  Madeleine Cleary: It's like a writer's dream, isn't it?
• 40:26
  Gareth Ward: It's a writer's dream actually.
• 40:27
  Gareth Ward: Yeah.
• 40:28
  Gareth Ward: And we
• 40:28
  Louise Ward: know, we do know, like we were away this weekend weren't, we are going like, how good is our life?
• 40:33
  Louise Ward: Yeah.
• 40:33
  You
• 40:33
  Louise Ward: know, so we are, we are very aware of how, of how privileged we are in the, but you've
• 40:38
  Madeleine Cleary: worked hard for it and you continue to work hard as well, so you're putting in the work.
• 40:41
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah,
• 40:42
  there's that as well.
• 40:43
  Yeah.
• 40:43
  Madeleine Cleary: cause in the end, you know, lots of people have dreams of writing a book.
• 40:46
  Madeleine Cleary: And Louise, you were saying before that you've always thought about writing a book, but you have to actually sit down at the desk and and do the work.
• 40:51
  Madeleine Cleary: Do it,
• 40:52
  Gareth Ward: do,
• 40:52
  yeah.
• 40:55
  Gareth Ward: I've always believed.
• 40:57
  Gareth Ward: I dunno how true this is'cause you never get the feedback, but we, I've always hit deadlines, you know, if we've, if we've had a deadline for something, I've always really hit it and we have.
• 41:05
  Gareth Ward: So I think that's one thing.
• 41:07
  Gareth Ward: And I think as well, we've always been very receptive to.
• 41:10
  Gareth Ward: Publishers and editor's requests.
• 41:12
  Gareth Ward: So I, I think I've always tried to be that author that's easy to work with.
• 41:16
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 41:16
  Madeleine Cleary: You
• 41:16
  Gareth Ward: know, and I think that makes being a nice
• 41:17
  Madeleine Cleary: person, not, not being a, a dick.
• 41:20
  Gareth Ward: Yeah.
• 41:20
  Gareth Ward: Yeah.
• 41:21
  Gareth Ward: I think that's quite important.
• 41:22
  Gareth Ward: I, I mean, I probably am, but I, I keep that all inside when I'm talking to the publishers.
• 41:25
  Gareth Ward: He gets
• 41:26
  Louise Ward: me to check his emails before he sends them.
• 41:28
  Louise Ward: Well, I think,
• 41:29
  Gareth Ward: I think I'm a little bit on the spectrum, so I tend to just be quite focused, like, blah, this is happening, this is happening.
• 41:34
  Gareth Ward: Whereas, okay.
• 41:38
  Sorry, the kids are, well,
• 41:43
  Madeleine Cleary: I think it's important to
• 41:45
  be,
• 41:46
  Madeleine Cleary: you know, collaborative and communicative and hitting deadline.
• 41:49
  Madeleine Cleary: So if you are a writer though, who you know, doesn't have a contract, I, I'm, I'm on, I someone too who's really motivated by a deadline.
• 41:56
  Madeleine Cleary: And I, I think imposing deadlines on yourself, even if you don't have a publisher waiting upon it, I think it's still important as well, isn't it?
• 42:02
  Yeah.
• 42:03
  Gareth Ward: Yeah.
• 42:03
  Gareth Ward: I think when I've been writing like book spec, you know, without knowing that it's gonna be published, I've always tried to say 500 words a day.
• 42:10
  Gareth Ward: Just, just do 500 and then in three months or whatever the book is done or the first draft is done and, and that's the way I, I work.
• 42:17
  Gareth Ward: Then with these ones it's a bit different'cause we have got deadlines.
• 42:19
  Gareth Ward: So you, you, you sort of work slightly differently.
• 42:22
  Gareth Ward: But yeah, for, for me that was, you know, 500 words was a, an amount that I could do.
• 42:27
  Gareth Ward: Not easily, but, you know, if you, if you have a couple of.
• 42:30
  Gareth Ward: Half hours across the day or something, you can get it done.
• 42:33
  Gareth Ward: And, and that's just the way you just then keep moving forward.
• 42:36
  Gareth Ward: Yeah.
• 42:38
  Madeleine Cleary: Is that what you do
• 42:39
  Louise Ward: too, Louise?
• 42:39
  Louise Ward: Yeah.
• 42:40
  Louise Ward: Um, I tend to just sort of, scar is
• 42:44
  Madeleine Cleary: shaking his head with all, no,
• 42:46
  Louise Ward: well he hates this'cause I write really quickly and it really annoys him.
• 42:50
  Louise Ward: So I will sort of think, and I'll visualize and then I will write it and I can hear it and I can see it.
• 42:56
  Louise Ward: So it's actually flowing quite well and I don't tend to get stuck, but it, it really pisses him off because he would've spent, you know, several days and he's, he's, he's thought about it and he is chucked his heart and soul at this chapter.
• 43:08
  Louise Ward: And he emailed it to me and I go right.
• 43:12
  Louise Ward: Bit catcher.
• 43:13
  Louise Ward: Yeah.
• 43:13
  Louise Ward: And he, it
• 43:14
  Gareth Ward: really annoys him.
• 43:15
  Gareth Ward: So it doesn't annoy me.
• 43:16
  Gareth Ward: I just find it hard because like, I, I find writing really hard.
• 43:19
  Gareth Ward: So I will, you know, it will take me maybe two days or three days to get my chapter done.
• 43:24
  Gareth Ward: And I emailed, you know, this happened the other week.
• 43:25
  Gareth Ward: I, I emailed it like Wednesday lunchtime, Wednesday evening, she sent hers back to me.
• 43:29
  Gareth Ward: I've got start.
• 43:30
  Gareth Ward: I haven't even had a break.
• 43:33
  Louise Ward: And it's not crap either.
• 43:34
  Louise Ward: Can I just put that out there?
• 43:35
  Louise Ward: You know, what I write is of a fairly decent quality.
• 43:38
  Madeleine Cleary: But how did you, how did, I know we've skipped over this a little bit, Louise, but you know, how, where did you get your practice from?
• 43:44
  Madeleine Cleary: How did you learn to write?
• 43:45
  Madeleine Cleary: Did you do, was it something at uni that you got or was it something that you'd
• 43:49
  Louise Ward: Yeah, I mean, even as a little kid, uh, and writing essays at school, I just, I loved it and I loved, um, English literature.
• 43:56
  Louise Ward: I did an English literature, A level, which, I dunno what you call that these days in Australia, um, you know.
• 44:04
  Louise Ward: When you, you know, what the, the qualifications you do when you're 18.
• 44:07
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah, yeah.
• 44:07
  Madeleine Cleary: Uh, we call that all sorts of things.
• 44:09
  Madeleine Cleary: It depends on which state you are.
• 44:11
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes, exactly.
• 44:11
  Louise Ward: But yes, so, and I, I loved it.
• 44:13
  Louise Ward: And then I went on to study, um, it was humanities degree, but it was an English literature major, and I absolutely loved it.
• 44:20
  Louise Ward: Just delving into these things and, and having ideas and articulating those ID ideas.
• 44:25
  Louise Ward: And then when running the bookshop, you know, I've, I've written lots of articles for, um.
• 44:29
  Louise Ward: The local newspapers and the local magazines, and then a couple of the nationals and then got to review on RNZ.
• 44:35
  Louise Ward: So you, you're constantly thinking how you can put your, your massive jumbled impressions of something into, into, um, telegraphic sentences almost, you know, where, where it's gonna make sense to somebody else.
• 44:48
  Louise Ward: So I've always really enjoyed that process and, um, I'm thoroughly loving.
• 44:53
  Louise Ward: Putting that into fiction.
• 44:55
  Gareth Ward: I think also you've always been an absolutely massive reader.
• 44:58
  Gareth Ward: Oh yeah, yeah.
• 44:58
  Gareth Ward: That, that was, you know, even before we had the bookshop, your, your free time was reading that's what you wanted to do.
• 45:02
  Gareth Ward: Yeah.
• 45:03
  Gareth Ward: So I think, you know, if you've, you've read a lot, you do pick up a lot subconsciously about structure of books and story in how it's works and sentence construction and language.
• 45:13
  Gareth Ward: Yeah.
• 45:13
  Gareth Ward: The language.
• 45:15
  Gareth Ward: So I think that's been a massive bonus for you.
• 45:17
  Gareth Ward: Yeah.
• 45:17
  Gareth Ward: And, and, and I guess with your, your study, you've also, you know, you think deeply about.
• 45:22
  Gareth Ward: The subtext and the subplots and what this, they're saying one thing, but they mean something else.
• 45:26
  Gareth Ward: So I think that just comes naturally for you.
• 45:28
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 45:29
  Madeleine Cleary: Reading, isn't it?
• 45:30
  Madeleine Cleary: It's a simple thing, isn't it?
• 45:31
  Madeleine Cleary: It's an enjoyable one, but yes, it's um, been the top tip of a few authors that have come on the podcast recently and I think it's an important one.
• 45:40
  Madeleine Cleary: Speaking of reading and your, so running your bookshop.
• 45:45
  Madeleine Cleary: So, um, authors, uh, a lot of the day authors in particular, they've got.
• 45:49
  Madeleine Cleary: Questions from about how to approach booksellers?
• 45:53
  Madeleine Cleary: Is it annoying when authors come up and say, oh, I've written a book.
• 45:58
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, can I sign it?
• 46:00
  Madeleine Cleary: Or is it something that you enjoy?
• 46:03
  Louise Ward: I think that's marvelous if they know it's in the shop.
• 46:05
  Louise Ward: If they've either looked it up online before so they're confident, you know, coming in because they know you stock it.
• 46:11
  Louise Ward: Um, please identify yourself to the bookseller.
• 46:14
  Louise Ward: You know, I mean, you'll get, you'll get varying degrees of response, but, um, you might wanna let them know you're coming or I see you've got my book in stock.
• 46:21
  Louise Ward: Shall I pop in and, and sign some?
• 46:23
  Louise Ward: Because, you know, for a book seller, it's a great opportunity.
• 46:25
  Louise Ward: We can take photos, we can stick it on the socials, um, and have a little celebration that that author's been in.
• 46:31
  Louise Ward: I.
• 46:32
  Louise Ward: It's quite funny'cause a lot of readers still have a disconnect between the book that they love and the fact that a person actually wrote it and it came out.
• 46:42
  Louise Ward: So, um, it, when they've actually signed it, I think that's quite a special thing.
• 46:45
  Louise Ward: So yeah, I would say yeah, definitely identify yourself.
• 46:49
  Gareth Ward: Yeah.
• 46:49
  Gareth Ward: I, I think it's different for different bookshops and you will, you know, maybe chains are different to indies, perhaps, but I think most people would, I mean, we, we've done this with the hub book.
• 46:58
  Gareth Ward: We've like wandered into bookshops and had a look and seen that they've got it and then we've gone up, you know?
• 47:02
  Gareth Ward: Um, so you, it is, it is nicest to check first because that saves a lot of embarrassment.
• 47:07
  Gareth Ward: Um,
• 47:07
  Louise Ward: but because we are booksellers, I think then we'll, we'll.
• 47:09
  Louise Ward: We'll pick the book up and we'll go and we'll say, this is us.
• 47:13
  Louise Ward: You know?
• 47:13
  Louise Ward: I know you're really busy.
• 47:14
  Louise Ward: Do you want us to sign it?
• 47:14
  Louise Ward: It's totally fine if you don't, you know?
• 47:16
  Louise Ward: Yeah.
• 47:16
  Louise Ward: So then they've got a, they've got a get out, get out clause because it Good idea put on the spot.
• 47:21
  Louise Ward: Yeah.
• 47:21
  Louise Ward: You know, and it can be awkward, especially if it's like on a Saturday and
• 47:24
  Madeleine Cleary: lunchtime and busy and Yeah.
• 47:26
  Louise Ward: Yeah.
• 47:27
  Louise Ward: And they're busy or that book sellers like part-time and they don't know what the protocol is.
• 47:31
  Gareth Ward: Yeah, yeah.
• 47:31
  Gareth Ward: Or might be that they come, you know, sometimes it's only the owner who makes that decision.
• 47:35
  Gareth Ward: So it depends on who they are.
• 47:36
  Gareth Ward: So Yeah.
• 47:37
  Gareth Ward: But if you're just polite.
• 47:38
  Gareth Ward: And you know, that's all you can ask and, and, um, also.
• 47:44
  Gareth Ward: From a books seller's point of view, sometimes a lot of our books are what they call seller returns.
• 47:48
  Gareth Ward: So if they don't sell, we send them back.
• 47:50
  Gareth Ward: If they're signed, sometimes you can't send them back.
• 47:52
  Gareth Ward: So it might be that they want you to sign some of them, but not all of them.
• 47:55
  Gareth Ward: So just be respectful of that as well, you know, you know, do you want me to sign some, how many do you want me to sign, sort of thing, and give them that as well.
• 48:01
  Gareth Ward: And, and so, yeah, and
• 48:03
  Louise Ward: give the bookshop a, a shout out on your socials too, you know?
• 48:05
  Louise Ward: Yeah.
• 48:06
  Louise Ward: That's a good idea.
• 48:07
  Gareth Ward: But, but certainly we don't mind people coming in and saying, look, you've got my book here.
• 48:10
  Gareth Ward: Can I sign it?
• 48:11
  Gareth Ward: Great.
• 48:11
  Gareth Ward: And, and you know, we know that people don't know what authors look like, so, you know, you, you don't expect to be recognized.
• 48:17
  Gareth Ward: So it's, it's, you know, it's nice when the author does come up and say, this is me, this is me.
• 48:22
  Gareth Ward: Do you want me to sign them?
• 48:23
  Gareth Ward: Sort of thing, you know?
• 48:24
  Gareth Ward: Yeah.
• 48:25
  Gareth Ward: Yeah.
• 48:25
  Madeleine Cleary: That's good advice.
• 48:25
  Madeleine Cleary: Do you have any other tips for authors in, in booksellers, um, how to be a good author?
• 48:32
  Louise Ward: Yeah.
• 48:32
  Louise Ward: I mean, it is very much a, a symbiotic relationship, you know?
• 48:35
  Louise Ward: Mm-hmm.
• 48:36
  Louise Ward: You don't write them, we can't stop them.
• 48:38
  Louise Ward: Um, and also you need us to, to get that wider audience.
• 48:41
  Louise Ward: So, um, yeah, get in touch.
• 48:44
  Louise Ward: Just say, you know, if you know that that book is in stock at that bookshop, click'em an email.
• 48:49
  Louise Ward: Some authors must write a billion postcards.
• 48:51
  Louise Ward: We've had postcards saying, thank you for stock stocking my book.
• 48:54
  Louise Ward: And as a, as a bookseller, you just go, oh, and you've created that relationship with somebody, a real personal relationship.
• 49:02
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh, I love that.
• 49:02
  Madeleine Cleary: That's a, I haven't heard that one before.
• 49:04
  Madeleine Cleary: I think that's really beautiful hand.
• 49:10
  Gareth Ward: Be a dick, you know, uh, you know, at the end of the day, book selling, there's a real, you know, writing's a really hard job and getting your book published is really impressive, but also book selling's really hard.
• 49:19
  Gareth Ward: So, you know, if the person doesn't have your book, don't be funny about it.
• 49:24
  Gareth Ward: Um, don't necessarily be the person who then takes all of their book and moves it to a different space in the book shop.
• 49:29
  Gareth Ward: So.
• 49:31
  Gareth Ward: Um, yeah.
• 49:32
  Gareth Ward: Or don't know where it's going for a start.
• 49:33
  Gareth Ward: Yeah.
• 49:34
  Gareth Ward: You know?
• 49:34
  Gareth Ward: Um, so yeah, just, just be respectful because they're part, you know, they are part of the business, but you don't want to be rude to the person who's selling your book.
• 49:43
  Gareth Ward: Yes.
• 49:43
  Gareth Ward: And it does happen, you know, and if they haven't got your book, just suck it up, you know.
• 49:48
  Louise Ward: Or talk to your publisher and the publisher's rep and say, you know, I think it do well in this bookshop.
• 49:53
  Louise Ward: Yeah.
• 49:53
  Louise Ward: Have you, have you tried or, you know?
• 49:54
  Yeah, yeah.
• 49:55
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 49:56
  Madeleine Cleary: And I think it's interesting because, um, a lot of authors don't realize that not every bookshop is gonna stock their book.
• 50:04
  Madeleine Cleary: There's, and there's new releases coming out each month, every Tuesday there, the new ones hit.
• 50:09
  Madeleine Cleary: Like, it's, it's a constant thing.
• 50:11
  Madeleine Cleary: So you really get that small window, don't you, to really make a up.
• 50:16
  Gareth Ward: You get about three months on the shelves, or, well, it probably, it would start longer, but you, you get three months of promotion from your publisher or something like that, and then it's, yeah, so I, I think you can, you can help by just.
• 50:29
  Gareth Ward: Friendly with the booksellers being nice because then they're more likely, you know, if you're gonna do an event, promote that event, you know, do everything you can to help promote it.
• 50:37
  Louise Ward: It's a bit of work.
• 50:38
  Louise Ward: Yeah.
• 50:38
  Louise Ward: And you've gotta, you know, don't expect everyone else to do it for you.
• 50:41
  Louise Ward: Some, some authors, you know, when they're pretty big, they don't have to do anything.
• 50:44
  Louise Ward: But, you know, we've done a lot of putting ourselves out there mm-hmm.
• 50:48
  Louise Ward: For our novels and, um.
• 50:50
  Gareth Ward: Also, we like visiting book shops.
• 50:51
  Gareth Ward: We've enjoyed it though.
• 50:52
  Gareth Ward: Yeah.
• 50:52
  Gareth Ward: They're not complaining fun.
• 50:53
  Gareth Ward: Easy for us, but
• 50:55
  Louise Ward: don't expect it to just happen.
• 50:56
  Gareth Ward: Yeah.
• 50:57
  Gareth Ward: You've gotta be part of the project.
• 50:58
  Gareth Ward: Yeah.
• 50:58
  Gareth Ward: I think, I think these days you have to put the effort in as well.
• 51:00
  Gareth Ward: Yes.
• 51:01
  Gareth Ward: Yeah.
• 51:02
  Gareth Ward: And also, yeah, just, just suck it up.
• 51:03
  Gareth Ward: If it doesn't go well, we've, we've.
• 51:05
  Gareth Ward: Had events that haven't gone so well that it's just, you know, um, you know, for us as the authors, but also for us as booksellers.
• 51:12
  Gareth Ward: And you can, you can do everything you want.
• 51:13
  Gareth Ward: You, you can to try and get an audience and people may not just turn up.
• 51:17
  Gareth Ward: And if that happens, that happens.
• 51:19
  Gareth Ward: You just have to live with it, you know?
• 51:20
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
• 51:20
  Madeleine Cleary: And it's a good story to tell on a podcast in future and a festival as well.
• 51:24
  Madeleine Cleary: Yeah, exactly.
• 51:24
  Madeleine Cleary: Big
• 51:25
  Louise Ward: authors have all got that story where nobody turned up for their event, so Yeah.
• 51:29
  Louise Ward: Yeah.
• 51:30
  Madeleine Cleary: Resilience building, it's important.
• 51:31
  Madeleine Cleary: As an author, I think.
• 51:33
  Louise Ward: Yeah.
• 51:34
  Madeleine Cleary: So to finish, we always ask our guests to leave the listeners with one, um, top tip.
• 51:40
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, and you've already given us some great top tips so you can repeat one that you've already given.
• 51:46
  Madeleine Cleary: I'm guessing Gareth is, don't be a dick.
• 51:48
  Madeleine Cleary: But, um, I'm, I'll hand it over to both of you.
• 51:53
  Louise Ward: My mine's always create relationships, you know, just be who you are, be genuine, and, um, reach out on a human being level, not on a sort of.
• 52:03
  Louise Ward: I'm emailing a corporate bookshop, you know?
• 52:05
  Louise Ward: Mm-hmm.
• 52:05
  Louise Ward: Just actually just try and create genuine human relationships, because that's gonna work well for everybody.
• 52:11
  Gareth Ward: I, I think, um, when I do writing talks, I always start with this Venn diagram.
• 52:16
  Gareth Ward: So it's got three circles and one is craft.
• 52:18
  Gareth Ward: So, you know, you, you have to have the craft of your writing.
• 52:21
  Gareth Ward: 'cause no one's, you are generally not gonna publish something that's not very good.
• 52:24
  Gareth Ward: You have to have persistence.
• 52:26
  Gareth Ward: Because you are gonna get rejections and then you have to have luck, and there's that little sweet spot where they all intersect and you can change some of those.
• 52:33
  Gareth Ward: You can't change, you can't really do anything about luck, but you can make your craft better and you can be persistent to, to increase your chances, um mm-hmm.
• 52:40
  Gareth Ward: Uh, but you still rely on that element of luck and that that's all there is to it.
• 52:44
  Gareth Ward: Yeah.
• 52:45
  Madeleine Cleary: Maybe you can reduce that element of luck by doing your research in terms of, well, who, who is gonna be the best place to, to pick up this work?
• 52:53
  Madeleine Cleary: What have they been publishing in the past?
• 52:56
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, is this hitting the market that they want as well?
• 52:58
  Madeleine Cleary: So doing your research really helps, I think with that too.
• 53:01
  Gareth Ward: Yeah, AB absolutely.
• 53:03
  Gareth Ward: I mean, I think, um, I guess.
• 53:06
  Gareth Ward: Writing to market is a thing we, I mean, we, I guess we did with this, but it wasn't necessarily a hugely conscious decision.
• 53:11
  Gareth Ward: I think you've gotta write what you enjoy writing, really.
• 53:14
  Gareth Ward: Of course, for me, writing has always been about writing what I want to write and anything else is a bonus, so, yeah.
• 53:19
  Gareth Ward: Yeah.
• 53:19
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
• 53:20
  Madeleine Cleary: No, I agree.
• 53:21
  Madeleine Cleary: Write what you wanna write.
• 53:22
  Madeleine Cleary: That's a lovely way to finish off.
• 53:24
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, so, um, you have to plug your bookshop as well, but when you go into bookstores, everybody, make sure you pick up a copy of Garris and Louisa's latest book in the bookshop, detective series, tea and Cake and Death, which is a great title.
• 53:39
  Madeleine Cleary: Um, so thank you so much for joining me.
• 53:42
  Madeleine Cleary: And do you wanna tell us for our New Zealand listeners, I think we have a few where your bookshop is.
• 53:47
  Louise Ward: Yeah, so we are on, uh, the North Island.
• 53:50
  Louise Ward: We are in Hawkes Bay, which is on the East coast, and we've got bookshops in Havelock North and one in Napier.
• 53:56
  Madeleine Cleary: Amazing.
• 53:57
  Madeleine Cleary: Thank you both so much for joining us on the Book Deal podcast.
• 54:00
  Gareth Ward: Thanks for having us.
• 54:01
  Gareth Ward: It's been a pleasure.
• 54:06
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• 54:09
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• 54:15
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• 54:17
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