Latest / TPOD- TTRPGs in Taipei / Episode 5: Teri talks about therapy, play, and politics

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Episode 5: Teri talks about therapy, play, and politics · TPOD- TTRPGs in Taipei

• cam: Hi, welcome back to T Pop and thank you for listening. I'm Cam. this week we're skipping the Vorthak thing, but I'll probably play the theme music before we get too deep into it. I sat down recently and had a conversation with with a friend of mine, Teri Lam who lives in Taipei and is a master's student in global health, and we talked about a topic that I've been probing into a little bit here on TPOD and one that I really enjoy, that TTRPGs have some therapeutic property. For me, they absolutely do have some some therapeutic use in that I think I would want to stay at home and not go out a lot if I didn't have these games to go play and I would sort of fall deeper and deeper into being a goblin at my house, right? I think I'm a very introverted person, but I really like people and I like being around people, but I can't push myself to just go and do nothing with people. So RPGs give me a space to make friends and have some conceit for us to get together and and to sit around and to do whatever. I was speaking with Johan recently, a couple of weeks ago on the show and mentioned to him something I had seen in a book recently that that To play is to have an image in your mind and to pass that image around to the other players and have everybody affect the image. So as a GM, I can come up with a NPC or a plot line, a quest or a world, and I can give that to the players and they'll do something that I couldn't have thought of with it and we'll take turns changing it. And by the time it makes it back to me, it's been morphed in a way that I that I couldn't have predicted, that I think is beautiful. That's that's what I like about these games, right? And if that's what you like about role playing, you don't need it to be therapeutic. That's okay. If you just want to play and have fun, that's okay. I I think for some people like me, it has some therapeutic value in that it just gives me a reason to go and and reach out and be around people and and that I think is healing on its own. I think that games can be healing as well. Anyway, it's a conversation or a topic that I've just found fascinating since I first heard the idea that D is therapy some years ago. I think it's almost a joke, especially to somebody who's on the outside of this hobby who thinks how could this be useful in that way? And to some people in this hobby as well, maybe they think it's a joke or that it's not therapeutic. And that's okay too. That's absolutely fine. But but again, for some people that For some people to who it means something like that, I think that it's worth investigating what that value is, how to magnify it and how to get those results. I certainly don't think that you can go into your D D game that you have now and start sharing your trauma on these people or expecting them to heal you. I don't think that it's the responsibility of the players at your table to heal you unless that's something that has already been discussed previously. Even then I don't know if I would trust it unless they're all trained or whatever. But I think that even on on an inherent level, just to go and tell a story with people that I like, to be around my friends and be creative and to hear them be creative is healing to me. And so I hope that you listen to this conversation and enjoy listening to it as much as I enjoyed having it. And thanks again to Teri for coming on. Cam and Teri: So I'm here today with our guest, Terry Lem. She's from the United States, here in Taiwan studying global health and wanting to study the intersection of health and tabletop role playing games. Yeah, thank you for inviting me. Hm it's our pleasure. Yeah, my name is Terry. I'm a masters student studying global health and you know, as part of a master's project you have to write a thesis. so I was looking for a topic and I thought, well, I've been playing games for roughly five years. I started in high school. a lot of people, myself included, have talked about how these games have changed our lives. that, you know, we go into these games and we often discover things about ourselves that we never knew. They can be healing in a way, almost therapeutic, and I said, that sounds like a really interesting global health topic because people around the world probably play all kinds of games. So So if the goal of any kind of health intervention or health idea is to make something that can be easily used by anybody across the world to increase health outcomes, then tabletop games might fit that bill. and that's kind of what I'm investigating as part of my coursework. Yeah, yeah, and absolutely I want to unpack basically all that all day. But I've got one question for you to start. This is I've got a gotcha question to start. Do you usually gather unethical scientific data or is it just am I just a special case here? I'm I'm sorry, I'm joking. No, I know you're joking. I yeah, you were an unethical case and I got chewed out for that. No. I'm joking. so you you were writing something like a like a proposal or something for your advisor that you were saying. I had to present we have a course called Seminar on had to present, essentially. And as part of seminar, you essentially also should be presenting on like if you have a thesis topic identified which mine I was like okay I want to do the tabletop game thing you have to essentially for like show that you are actually you know collecting data or doing something and so I went into the seminar and I was like hey like I not only did I collect some field notes on you know hey I attended this game and I wrote some notes about it I also interviewed somebody potentially on certain topics to you know show like okay this is somebody from the tabletop TCRPG scene this is somebody somebody who has some experience, this is their thoughts on the specific topic I'm studying. and then I said this won't be included in my final project and I still got chewed out. Well I've got to give you a hard time for it on here. That's just that that's the whole thing. So do you think you know to cut to the chase here, do you think that that play is therapeutic? Do you think that that role playing games are therapeutic or do you think D and D is therapeutic? And if so, is it is it like therapeutic in a different way than other types of games. Is there something specific to role playing games that makes it therapeutic? So I think I think there's no yes-no answer to that in particular. because specifically I need to base my thesis around other people's work. And so one of the things that a lot of other scholars in the field have been writing about is that tabletop role-playing games are very similar to the benefits of group psychotherapy, specifically Irving Yolon's eleven benefits of psychotherapy. So you you're getting together with a group, not only are you learning how to interact with other human beings, right, you're socializing, you're cooperating, you're working together. And it can have a similar transformative effect as in-group therapy, in my opinion. But I don't necessarily think that one should replace the other. I think this was actually a question that somebody asked me in my class. They said, Well, therapy is done by a licensed therapist, and a game master is not a licensed therapist. And I said, like, yeah, I understand that. And I think that in this way. Part of my master's thesis is also looking at the fact that play itself can be healing. You know, there's not there's no need to biomedicalize tabletops in certain ways because at the end of the day what comes out in play can be very, very different from if you're walking into, let's say, a hospital or a therapist's office. You know, I think the things that we find when we portray these characters can be quite different and they're definitely topics that I would have never dreamed of or never imagined. in a character if I had, you know, been in a therapist's office. Yeah, absolutely. So I I think I wanted to ask like a broader question now. you think that that play itself has therapeutic value. So so what is what is play, what is a game? And I know that's that's maybe a very broad or or abstract question. But but what is what is it to play then? I think play is a process, at least play that I am looking at concerning specifically tabletop role playing games, is a process of simulation. It's a way to learn more about our world by presenting a fictionalized environment. and that's something I talk about in my thesis or I'm hoping to talk about in my thesis. play allows us to do what is called dramatic rehearsal, right? Instead of going in to tell your boss that really scary speech, you can be a brave character in Dungeons and Dragons and you can maybe practice your confidence beforehand to give you that little boost when it comes to having a difficult conversation. in a way, I think play can be therapeutic in that kind of sense. I'm not sure if that exactly answered if it's that's what I'm thinking. so and I want to I don't know, contextualize or or ask even deeper than sorry if the questions are so abstract or or not pointed, but but what is therapy then? like obviously you have the idea of of it being some German guy talking to you while you lay on a couch and that's not that's not what this is. I think I'm studying play as when I talk about play and therapy, I think more about like play as a healing effect. And it's it's not just you as asked that question because a lot of the critiques I'm getting on what I'm working on is well, there's no measurable health outcome. Like what are you changing? You're not curing anything, so why is this studying this important? and to that I guess my answer would be, one I'm working on it so, you know, wait until I have a finished thesis, but the second answer I would have is I think that play doesn't necessarily have to have a health outcome attached to it. You know, it doesn't have to be like when I play TTRPGs, I see a statistically significant increase or decrease in these symptoms. I think play itself can be relaxing and rewarding. I mean it's something we do for fun. and in a way what we choose i it it is a safe space for us to express all kinds of things and I think having that safe space is really important. I'm sure one aspect that's been studied a lot that I'm also like sure many people have personal feelings or experiences with is like tabletops and the LGBTQ community. There's a lot of overlap in that. And so it can be very therapeutic for some people to say, Well, I have these three or four hours where I'm playing a character who is me and that's really important and I don't necessarily think that can be captured in numbers or, you know, the specific therapeutic outcomes or some kind of scientific hard data. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. So I you say there's no measurable outcome and I hate you know, you're just saying, it doesn't have to be captured in numbers. but but is there like in do you think there's any value to self reporting like, you know, circle the number that you feel before the game, circle the number that you feel after the game. I that sounds silly, but but like could it not be could it not be like telegraphed at all, you know, or or measured at all the the outcome? There definitely could be. And as part of my research I also have to do basically a review of what already exists in the field because they also Want to see because this is an emerging field, it's like the last 10-20 years have really shown people actually start to try like TTRPG therapy. I have to basically look at a bunch of papers and see, okay, what are people finding? And many people do that, specifically if they're saying, like, for example, I would like to run a Dungeons and Dragons group with a therapist, and we are going to try to specifically find people with social anxiety and see if this. Game improves your social anxiety, then they will definitely do like what is called pretest, post-tests. So they'll look at a bunch of, they'll score them before and they'll score them after and they'll say, is there an improvement? But something that I've been finding in my research lately that is quite interesting is that a lot of papers, or some papers, will show that there is no or little statistical significance, meaning that the data is not saying that technically things changed. But when given questionnaires after the game, the participants themselves report that. they think that this experience was really helpful and that they actually felt like they learned a lot and they grew a lot and changed a lot, which makes me think that there's maybe something that can't exactly be measured by Absolutely. And and I I I want to agree with you just on the basis that play can feel free. Like I I like to say run. I like to go running. And sometimes running can feel freeing. And I think that playing D and D or or role playing games in general is is freeing in that way. It can be freeing. I I actually ran a game earlier this week and wasn't very well prepped for it. And so I had to in improv a lot of it and and through just going blindly into the situation and saying, here's the NPC and here's what they're gonna do, you know, the NPC wants this and the characters want that and to try and have that conversation as somebody else and and just do it off the cuff was was freeing. It felt I hate to say the word over and over, but free. It it felt free. And so I think that that there is like flow or something in games that obviously like you say can't be captured by by numbers and and you you know part of the therapy of the game is that I've I've got I've got another question. Wait, let me think. Yeah yeah no you're good. Mm-hmm. So there You must have some sort of theory, some sort of model for the ways that a that a game like the in the would be therapeutic. I I know that we're talking about well, maybe it's it gives you space to express yourself or something, but but what are like the modes or the like What am I trying to say? What what are what are the the ways by which something like a game, something like a tabletop game would be therapeutic. Not just that it gives somebody a space, but but what is like the mode or what is the the the thing driving the effect? that also is a question that I got asked a lot, so I know how to answer it. But In terms of TTRPGs specifically, there's multiple different components that I think could lead to a therapeutic outcome. in particular, like dramatic rehearsal, right? If you are somebody who's really shy in real life, you're very introverted, and then in Dungeons and Dragons or another game, you're playing this character who is quite loud and talkative and very, very different from yourself, you might find that there's a bit of character bleed. Or bleed over, you know, you might in your real life start thinking, well, I should be able to say things, or let me try things differently. And in that way, I think it's not just us playing the game, it's characters as well can change us. Dramatic rehearsal, of course. If again, if you're worried or nervous about something, and there are really no consequences to doing anything in a fictional world besides, I guess, hurting some people's feelings, then you can test out what a theory you have or any idea, and then see how it. goes in this world where technically nothing doesn't really have consequences, at least in terms of against your real life. So I want to go two directions from here. The first thing, I'll just tell a story. Imagine that there's a playground full of children and they each have an imaginary friend. The question is can the imaginary friends like influence each other? Or can the imaginary friends Can my imaginary friend influence you or can my imaginary friend influence your imaginary friend? And and the answer, you know, I I think he's talking about virtual particles or something, you some some like physical effect, like, c you i is there some way for these things to interact? And and and so I I certainly in a way I I think they sound similar to how this could you know, have bleed over in your into your life or like by acting out this character you have these ways of feeling. but The other thing I wanna say is is that this audience that we're talking to, you know, we're not talking to like my mom. You don't have to say D and D. Like so what do you let's let's cut it open. What do you feel about about D and D as therapy versus other games as therapy? And like do you think that that the there's something specific about you know WOD Z Watsey five point five D and D that's therapeutic versus like other games and you can talk about other games specifically if you like. Yeah. that is something that made me really mad when I was actually trying to do research because and here's we have a nerd audience, right? We have this is this is specialized content, right? Yeah. So you can say what you really feel. Here's the part where I slander a bunch of scientists in the field as my first I thought you were gonna slander D and D, but okay, yeah, go for it. No, no. I you heard it here. I'll get there, I'll get there. But And I think that there were many papers that I looked at that were classified as the system that was used was Dungeons and Dragons 5th edition, and I opened up the paper and it's not. It's not D fifth edition. that's strange. There was City of Mist, there was Tormento RPG, which is Brazilian, there was PBTA, obviously, Monsters of the Week, Monster Hearts, all kinds of games, but There are other games out there. There are other games. You guys you don't have to just type in one game, And this is something that I am going to focus on in my research that don't think has been researched as much. I think the system really does matter in what kind of therapeutic effect you are trying to portray. If you're playing Dungeons and Dragons and you know you are trying to get this group to maybe think critically or have great investigation skills, and your group is only interested in slaughtering as many things as possible, If, for example, you're playing Call of Cthulhu, which is, you a scary horror investigative game, and you're trying to get people to be heroes or embrace their best self, they're not really gonna be able to do that in the same way that a fantasy genre game like Dungeons & Dragons 5th edition could. a lot of the papers that I found had as ones that the ones that were made by people who had played games before, usually actually did end up either modifying DD Fifth. edition or choosing another game for precisely the reasons that I described. They picked systems that worked for what therapeutic effect they were trying to aim for. And the ones that did that in my opinion in the correct ways often had better results on the whole. But that That is just my belief. you spoke specifically about Vampire the Masquerade as being a game that that seems like it could work as therapeutic intervention for people with addictions to different things. what like other things would you have to tack on to a role playing system or what systems would be involved in a role playing system to give it some therapeutic value, do you think then? I I was trying to find the study that I was talking about and I couldn't find it. But I think for Vampire the Masquerade in particular, it's a game about addiction, about humanity, about, you know, remaining human and choosing to be human even though you have these monstrous urges. I think that that's a pretty clear parallel in terms of, you know, dealing with topics of drug addiction or just addiction in general. In particular, I also think that's there was a study I looked at that specifically used Monster of the Week for dealing with patients who had like speech issues because of brain damage and so they use monster hearts monster of the week, my bad, specifically because Monster of the Week is, you it's Buffy the Vampire Slayer. It's supernatural. It's that nice episodic we wrap it up in one session and we keep going game, which has less mental strain than, you know, I'm playing Dungeons and Dragons. I have to remember to add plus fifty to this thing or that thing and I have to keep track of all this armor and inventory. It is just a lighter game. And that the quality of it being lighter as a system was important for these researchers because of the subjects that they were using this Game on. Yeah. So I don't know much about therapy but but what types of what types of of problems that people have often cause them to seek therapeutic intervention or therapy and and like what of those things could be put into games or gamified in a way that that is like possibly useful? It's a very speculative question, but but yeah. To be entirely honest, I think a lot of the papers in this field right now are game enthusiasts or are just like running like pilot, they're like, Hey, I love playing Dungeons and Dragons. Let me also give it to my patients. No, that sounds reasonable. but which is actually interesting because another benefit that seems to be popping up with this therapy is that, you know, people who are more treatment resistant who might dislike other forms of therapy are like, playing board games, that sounds really fun and then they get really excited to try this form of therapy, which is totally different. But in terms of These specific outcomes. Usually it's aligned with some kind of social outcome. So a big one is social anxiety, social isolation, antisocial behavior, speech impediments or improving speech, as I said. Language learning was one that was studied a little bit. Yeah. Who try to say something in their non-native language. And I find that an extra dice is a very useful incentive for players because you know if you reward players for doing something that might be a little difficult, they are more likely to try it. And I think people are learning, and I'm also learning, a lot of Mandarin as well as English. I really want there to be educational value to role playing games. Because obviously I like these games so much it's it's most of my personality, but I teach to like put food on my plate, right? And so I wish that I could turn my job into into teach into playing role playing games. I even have have tried fiddled with it before. I taught an astronomy class before and was like, Can I use Traveler to teach my astronomy class? As you know, I have I have a degree in a st astrophysics, right? But I still am thinking like, can I instead play video c can I instead play games instead of talking about Mars like I'm supposed to. And so I I I do wonder are there ways to make these more educational? And it I think language learning is is the most obvious one, but yeah. There's a professor that I hope to get in contact with who actually is using fantasy-inspired, I suppose, like Dungeons and Dragons light to teach his students about spotting misinformation and like bad sources. he puts together a scenario or he wrote about a scenario put together that was like on your desk, your party members have a Pile of website sources, information online, you have to decide between these four doors, and each door represents a different type of source. So one door could be AI-generated misinformation, one door could be credible sources, one door could be websites, personal experience, secondhand sources, and so on. And the first party that makes it out gets extra credit. So I think that his students are learning. I think when you put together a game in order to introduce something. the act of it being fun matters just as much, I think, as, you know, having that game mechanic underneath it. Yeah, games have taught me things throughout my entire life. I like and I I even think that that's part of the usefulness, like the evolu evolutionary usefulness of play is that it it is it is Not educational, but it it teaches you things, right? If your brain all your brain does is make you like move in specific ways and play physical play like sports or even game, you know, games where you are playing as a different person, improving, speaking, whatever, you are using your brain to move in new ways and and control your body in new ways. So I I think that there's clear educational use for games, but I don't know how to I still can't square the circle for for RPGs in the classroom. so in the case back to to what we were talking about, in the case of of therapy, therapeutic value of games, whose responsibility is it then if you are to If you are to get therapy from your weekly D and D session can I just go and do that? Can I just go show up and and start crying when it's my turn or or I'm I'm being facetious, but but is that something that I can just go and do? Am I being am I getting therapy just by playing the game? I think if you show up to I well, I don't know, but if you showed up to my game, expecting therapy and being able to talk about your life's problems, I think I'd be a little weirded out personally. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think I I I think when you were playing these games, I think what happens often is that we aren't expecting these therapeutic benefits. I didn't come into DD thinking, wow, it's gonna change my life. I'm gonna be able to talk about my deepest fears and insecurities. I just I just thought it was fun and I wanted to play it. and then I found that these stories allowed me to sometimes say things or realize things about myself that I couldn't really realize. I think that with regards to therapeutic applications. There are like specific certifications that you can get for actually becoming a qualified dungeon master in TA or TTRPG therapy. Is it so? I've never heard of that. Yes, it it was a program that it's very recent actually. it is related to a system called Critical Core, which was published as like a sort of stripped down version of DD 5th edition's rules with the explicit goals of being used for therapeutic purposes. Yeah. there's also another game I know that's coming out recently. recently that is actually somebody else working on their own master's thesis. Brilliant. Brilliant. Or thesis. Yes. Called Spirit Keep. Mm-hmm. but I think that games can be pretty healing. I'm just as well not sure how to quantify it. And that's part of the reason why I'm I'm trying to lean as well into documenting some things, seeing what comes up in play as opposed to reading off of papers that misattribute the systems to DND fifth editions and I'll say anything about that. I I think about Depression. I think if I don't I don't wanna I've I've never been to a doctor about there, you know, like psychological problems. And so I can't diagnose my s anything. But but if I if I was to say anything, I'd say that I I often feel not often, but I sometimes feel depressed. And I I think that I think that D and D like helps with that. Or gaming in general. I don't again I don't play D and D basically ever. But so even I'm guilty of the metonym. I think that that role playing games help with depression. There's an episode of Star Trek Deep Space Nine. so I'm sorry, I'm gonna explain this whole hour long episode of Star Trek. But one character, Nog, he is Quark's Quark is the bar owner on the space station, Deep Space Nine. Nog is his nephew. Nog joined Starfleet Academy during the war in the Gamma Quadrant and has his leg blown off. So Nog is basically a young guy, has his leg blown off, and goes into Deep Depression. And in this episode, he goes to the holodeck where there's like a 1960s Las Vegas casino, basically. And jazz singer in a casino, and he helps like rebuild the casino, it helps the jazz singer like get his career back going. And and before this, in the episode, Nog is he's depressed and he won't get out of bed, he won't eat, he won't do anything, he won't put on his shirt, you know, to go answer the door or whatever. But through the game in the episode the game of going to the holodeck like rebuilding the casino, he he becomes so invested in it that he wakes up in the morning, it has him, you know. brushing his teeth and doing his hair or whatever, just to go be in the holodeck. And he realizes towards the end of the episode that that like what he's building is virtual, right? It is it it it doesn't mean anything for anybody else, but he has like left his depression behind. He is like through the thro the act of the game. And I know this sounds sort of silly, but but I I I think that that's one thing that I that I get from it. Even on a personal level. Like one thing that I get from playing games like this is I I do get excited to just be involved in the fiction and and to go see my friends and to, you know, have a reason to try and like write something down and think about something and try and be a little creative. And I think i in just trying to like make the presentation of playing the game every so often, I I I like fight away 'cause for me the depression is something to like fight away, right? I guess it I wasn't trying to turn this episode into be talking about being the press. but but to to like have something to to do, to fight it away every day. I I think that that the game offers that and and for free. So I think that that like on on on a personal level, like one thing that the game gives to me is is just Just that. Then and I know that there's I think that there's more therapeutic value to it than that. No, I I this isn't quite s as personal, but the game I play, Shadowrun, is very numbers crunchy and I always had this belief about myself that I wasn't really a numbers person, that I couldn't do it, that the system was far beyond me, and then turns out after, you know, weeks and weeks of playing, I'm able to make a character, I'm able to do the math in my head, and that's something that I didn't think I could do. I I don't think I would have changed that perception. About myself if I hadn't decided, hey, I want to also make a character that does five billion damage. I too want to min-mix. Yes. I ran a little poll on Mastodon recently. It was like it was D D therapeutic, and I had I don't know, fifteen or twenty responses. I forget now. mostly the answers were maybe, but it's complicated, which I I think is is what you're getting at, and and ultimately what I already believed. but a lot of people brought up that that it could be like re traumatizing or it could be a toxic environment. And I personally have not had much experience with that. So so like do you think that that games leave you like in a position to become more vulnerable or that this is something that that does risk like trauma, you know, by playing a game? I think there certainly is an element. I definitely know that, you know, if you're just going into this thinking it's a fun, silly, whimsical game and then something happens that you're not prepared for, or something gives you a bad taste in your mouth, that might you might just never decide to pick up a T TRPG again. I think personally I've also had some bad experiences, but I think it's also different for people depending on like what they look like and who they are. I know I have more friends who are who've had a lot of bad experiences and they are all mostly female or on some kind of LGBTQ spectrum, which might you know, correlation is not causation, but I I think it points to this idea that sometimes it can be hard to find the space that's right for you and sometimes these things can be damaging in ways. for me, when I think of the experiences I've had and why I'd like to play this game again, I think Part of what I love about the T T RPG community is that there's a spot for everybody. It might not be every table. It might not be every game, but you know, finding those people and finding that place is something that I think T T RPG allows me to do that I wouldn't be able to otherwise. Absolutely. Yeah, I am. I tried to join a game I I'm really interested in Dungeon Crawl Classics. Actually I've got a couple of the books over there. I I tried to join an online game of Dungeon Crawl Classics about a year ago now. And I've told this story over and over because it makes me laugh. my my discourse Avatar is the Antifa flag, like the German Antifa, you red and black flags. And I tried to join this game and I, you know, I got into their server and I created a character, and one of the players in the in the at the table, you know, in the game, saw my avatar and told the GM in a private message, I can't play with Cam, the new player, because he has this Antifa flag, and I'm a police officer, and Antifa kills police. And so the GM, like he said, like, I'll quit the table and let Cam play. Because, you know, he's an awful police killer and you know, the GM messaged me like, No, we wanna keep Joe around because, you know, he's been here longer and like, sorry, you know, Antifo is cool with me, but like you're scared enough the police officer. And and I I don't know, I messaged the police officer after, but he had actually blocked me. But all I was trying to say was like I've never killed a police officer. I mean I I I just wanna play this game and this isn't a like a space, I feel like this is a place for us to like come together and agree about something, not not a place to to to like run away from from something that we're afraid of. But but Sure. Not every table, like you said, is for everybody. I've actually had a very similar experience. Is that right? Yes. Well, Shadowrun is very interesting mechanically and also narratively, because instead of doing what DD does where it says there's all these different races, but don't think too hard about the implications of there being different races. Shadowrun, because it is set in an urban dystopia, decides to go the opposite route and goes, Yeah, there are different races, yes there is racism, here is all the different ways that these characters have been discriminated against. And in that Specific experience I had, the game master, there was a disagreement, and the game master kind of was like, Well, I think this other player is correct. I don't really want to deal with racism, despite it being a core sort of tenet of the setting that things are unequal, that there is discrimination. And his reasoning behind that was that he was just playing the game for different reasons. He found it he had a pretty stressful life and he found it to be something that was relaxing for him. And so for him, any player getting into an argument or any kind of I suppose backlash meant that we were the ones in the wrong for ruining his time to relax, which I think it's pretty stressful to be a game master, but I I see his point. And yeah. I I think you know, it's not as terrible as somebody calling me a cock killer. But it was definitely a moment in which I kind of realized that, The way I play games is very unique, or I think the way that everybody plays games is very unique to them specifically and it sometimes can be really hard when expectations aren't met. tempers can get really hot. even I suppose even in Dungeons and Dragons, which I know, it's Dungeons and Dragons. I think there can tends to be friction, especially with live play and actual play, because people are coming into this space sometimes thinking, I want a role play and some people are coming to the space thinking, I want to get to into combat and, you know, do my turn special action reaction and it's that can definitely be a bit of a clash. Hm. I think everybody has like a a sort of a player profile and those profiles, you know, like you know, I I like the tactics and strategy of the game, but I also like this or that you know, and everybody sort of fits in not everybody fits in an archetype or everybody's all the same or whatever. Right. Yeah, people people do like the games for different reasons. on being called a cop killer, I you know, as a as a white man, nobody's ever called me a name where I like, That really hurt at least n unless it's somebody that I know really well and they say something very specific. people often say, let's not get political. Let's not make this political. Don't bring sexuality or feminism or or anti-fascism into our game. Let's not get political. And I think that I get very frustrated with the idea that that to keep that out of the game is a non-political choice. What do you have to think about that? So here's my hot take. I think that in a way you can't avoid things bleeding over. I think real life will influence what your characters are doing, and I think your characters will influence what real life is doing. And not only is that a fact, it is a documented and proven scientific fact. I know because I had to read a lot of papers on it. But I think that I understand people thinking of play as something that is lighthearted and fun and an element of, you know, escapism. I completely understand that. But to almost flip the question on its head, if play is a form of escapism, then shouldn't we be using it to build The reality where everybody is treated equally, where things are different. Where, for example, in one of the Dungeons and Dragons, the only Dungeons and Dragons fifth edition campaign I'm playing, do not ask me to run another one, please, please, please. I am not homophobia does not exist. I don't care. I'm not adding it to my game. I don't think it adds anything to that space. And I want to create, let's say, a fantasy utopia where the bad guys are evil, but they don't need to call you slurs to be evil. They can do other things. Absolutely. and I think that in particular, games can be a form of utopia. I've mentioned Shadowrun before. I am somebody who usually plays cyberpunk style games because growing up I did not see myself in a lot of Western fantasy. I didn't see people who looked like me. I didn't see people doing what I did or anything that felt familiar to me. and so when Cyberpunk rolls around with all of these Asian themings, its dystopia, its idea that you're just somebody small but you can fight Against this system and change it, that really stuck with me. And to this day, it's why I think cyberpunk systems are my favorite systems to play. And why why there aren't depictions of people that look like you, you know, depending on like no matter what you look like, why there aren't depictions of people that look like you in D and D, and most of the people are like you know, white people or whatever, you know, that that is a political thing. And so so to say like, it's not political, it's D and D. Everybody looks like He Man. that that that is a political thing. I I I even find language to be political and and and like unavoidable. Like we speak in in Taiwan people speak among, you know, the Hakka and Hakkien languages, they speak Mandarin and not Xiongnu, which is that's a political thing that, you know, a thousand years ago the the Huns were defeated and and you know the the like the northern people of China too. So like Every everything is political. And to try and say, well, we can't allow this into the game because that would be political, like is is already an inherently political thing and and like status quo ism is is a choice and so to like to allow racism or to ignore racism or or to to allow homophobia or whatever into a game like is already an inherently political choice. And so to say like, I like to relax during my game in the case of the police officer. He says he likes to relax in the game and he doesn't want to be reminded of antifa this is this is a political choice on his behalf, not on mine. That that like that to him you know, that to be anti fascist is a political choice and and to be fascist is the default. And I find that to be offensive a and and and so I think that I don't A now I'm getting heated. I'm trying to ask you questions about therapy, but now I'm I'm instead talking about how how like what political what is political or what is not political is is I think games are political. I think that's you know unconsciously or not we make choices about I would even go a step farther and say that playing a Western fantasy game or Western fantasy games being the default norm as being the most studied game is inherently a political decision. Absolutely, yes. Yeah. I think that's you know expecting everybody to play a Western fantasy game when other forms of fantasy exist, other ideas about fantasy are different across cultures is a bit silly and I think that, if we are to appreciate games as this space where anyone can find a space to play in, then we have to be accepting of this idea that these games should and could involve like some kind of bleed in at least from your life. And you know, they're not just an isolated world away from everything else. There's bleed. You'll change as part of this game and you should be open to changing as part of that game. And you should put what you want to say in that game. I I understand the game master messaging unit I mean that's kinda how it goes when one player you're I mean you're the new player and you get kicked out, but yeah. I I actually want to ask who do you think Who do you think i the responsibility lies with to make a a particular game session open or welcoming or like the right space for a player? Is that on the game master specifically? This is actually something I disagree with some of my friends about because I think that although it is also on the players, the game master has the most responsibility. You are literally the master of the table, you have to keep your finger on the pulse of the game, and you also have to keep your finger on the pulse of any kind of social issues. That doesn't mean you should be, I don't know, George Orwell nineteen eighty four Spying in on your friends, don't do that, and they'll stop playing with you. But I think that you have to, for example, if there's a player dispute, it is your job as the game master to settle that dispute because it is your table. and speaking more lightheartedly, you know, when I go up to that table and I go, Hey, I look like this, I go by these pronouns, it creates a space where everybody knows okay, the person with the most authority in these three to four hours is someone. Somebody, you know, who presents in this way, this is okay, and this is accepted, and this is normal. And I think that while players do have power and should make this space as welcoming as possible, I think that something that I personally believe is that as a game master, like you level up when you learn how to deal with social conflict. You level up when you say no or when you kick a player out from a table. Yeah. I want to be more anarchist than that and say, No, it's the responsibility of everybody but I I I think in a way I'm guilty of like like colorblindism w you know like When I was growing up, you know, there's racism and then there's no I'm colorblind. I don't see black and white. And and actually in doing so you can ignore some some injustice by saying, I don't I if you really didn't see black and white, you wouldn't recognize that that there is like racial injustice or something. And and so to me when I say, I think it's the r the responsibility of the players to make the game open and welcoming and and we should like it it should be horizontally organized instead of you a GM at the top. I am ignoring that that like I am you know intersectionally privileged or whatever. So so I think again, even that is political. Like even my understanding that that like it should be this way is a political thing. in a way. So it it's inescapable that it's political. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I also think that at least for me personally I've definitely had a falling out over this specific topic because I'm of the opinion that sometimes, you know, you'll get you'll get a player who's kind of a problem player, but they're not exactly a problem player. Like they haven't done anything super duper offensive, but you know, they're that person who kinda makes people uncomfortable for various reasons. And no one kinda knows what to do. And so eventually, you know, the players who were actually really enjoying this game start dropping out until, you know, the problem player brings in another friend, and another friend, another friend. This is not A fascism allegory. This is actually literally just about games. you know I don't know. You had me going there. No, no, it it it was a conversation I had with somebody who I no longer speak to who said, you know, no one was uncomfortable with this player, and I lost it on him. I was like, no, like I was uncomfortable, my friend wasn't comfortable, we just didn't want to say anything because we were s worried. you know, and that's why we dropped out. That's why I was very rude to him honestly. I like, That's why you cannot find players at your table because your players involve a problem player. And so people aren't gonna just stand up to I think a game master and say, Hey, I like you, but problem player Joe sucks and is horrible because problem player Joe is also your friend. In a way you have to be accountable for these things that happen and if somebody is speaking out of line, you know, I'm I'm very quick to be like, hey, not at my table. You can do this outside, you can do this anywhere else, not at my table because I know that if you try to ignore a situation especially as a game master, you oftentimes run into unintended consequences because of that decision. I think that that's something that can be hard to understand, especially 'cause like this is just a silly funny game space, you know, this is fantasy elves, who cares? But I think that it should be something that at least is cognizant for many game masters, that's you also dictate the socially acceptable behavior out of character at your games as well. I I was running I I told you about my Delta Green scenario and I've run it twice. The first time I the second time I ran it we had you know, the emotional thing about the grandma or whatever. But but the very first time I ran this Delta Green scenario, it involves a a a An orphan child, a a black orphan child. And one player at the table thought it was appropriate to refer to him as a racial slur. Wow. In the game. And I and I stopped. I was like, Yeah, this is this is unacceptable. Like, don't come to my house and say that. And he's like, No, it's what my character would say. my god. And I'm thinking like why would you why would you fantasize about being a racist? Why would you like you you are making the character, so why would you make a racist if in this world, why do you think this is a good thing to do? And I understand sometimes you think, I want to play a bad guy. This is a evil campaign. But I but you don't have to do that. I don't know. I I thought that was a little a little over the top. And and even that caused some, you know, friction between me and this friend and and the the friend and the table and and and I think after that he he dropped out. But The game didn't last too much long after that anyway. That sounds terrible. I'll have to find another table to say Rachel Slurs. Yeah, yeah. Well yeah, he wasn't a a role player but but was just saying yes, because you know, we were we were friends and I asked to be played, he okay, and then and then that happened. I thought what in the you know, what in the hell? Don't don't just come over here and say that. so it was it was yeah, I I don't know. I I so I I I certainly think that personally I I think that games do put us in the vulnerable places, in in the case of a game that can expose you to like emotion through through trying to improv or truth through trying to I forget the word for it, but like connect to ground. Like if you're if you're in a scene in a game and you're trying to ground it to reality, often you'll think of like a lower stakes situation that's similar like if I'm I'm trying to ask for a raise at my job, right? I l I I'll in my game where I'm trying to like haggle with the with the NPC, I'll think like, remember when I tried to ask for a raise and and I'll try and like feel that. And so I think games can put you into these like precarious places and and then there are like actions in the game that that can that can have like due to that openness that vulnerability can have like a a sort of a high leverage on you and so there is and that that can be good or bad, right? I I think so because games put you in vulnerable spaces they they are inherently possibly therapeutic. Not inherently therapeutic, but possibly therapeutic. This is slightly humorous, but I've been meaning to read a study that looks at D and D horror stories and checks out what kind of issues have come up with running games. So I think that Other people are thinking about that as well. I also think that like a classmate mentioned, like, you know, a therapist has very clear boundaries on what is ethical and unethical behavior. There is no ethical and unethical rules that we all agree on when we all run games. There's no, you know, do do this, don't do this. It's really subjective to each person and you know, I'm sure that that player maybe thought that it was okay to say that 'cause it's what his character would do, but clearly, you know, you disagreed, either should, and said, Hey, that's not okay. and I I mean I think it can be really hard. I think that, that's maybe why session zeros are really important. when I'm for specifically the language exchange, for example, I said at the beginning, I was like, Hey guys, like you're all superheroes, so it's gonna be funny, campy like, you know, PG thirteen kind of animated cartoon silliness. Just keep it light and that was something that I had to reiterate because I wanted to tell people, like, hey, like you know, this is something you have to be good to do this. but I do think people really get excited about deviance. People really get excited about you can do anything and then they proceed to break all the laws that they can't in real life because it's it's play, it's exploring. and I think that's fun for a very short amount of time. Yes, yes. I think I think what has worked particularly well, at least in my case, has been reminding people that they're playing characters. Hey, is that what your hero would do? Would you break that law? You're a superhero. and Kind of reminding them that they do have there are consequences in this fictional world is pretty good, but I I've definitely run to my fair share of people who immediately join a game and try to break every rule. You've you've put me on to you've reminded me of something else. So we've we've discussed games as therapy and now games as politics and I'm gonna touch on games as religion. so sorry, this is this is a a strange conversation. But when I was when I was younger I was a Christian, went to you know, went to church or whatever and and a friend of mine said something when I was seventeen or eighteen that I disagreed with and and one of the things maybe that that helped let me drift away from that part of my life and it was that if he wasn't Christian, then what would stop him from from raping and murdering and all these terrible things? And I and I thought, what sort of question is that? Are you a a sociopath or something? And and so I think that that if religion is what it is that's keeping you sort of from doing this, then then you have a problem, right? And in in the case of the game, if if like you suddenly have this this infinity of possibilities and what you think is, then I'll I'll go and do these things, then then like I don't know what to say. May maybe you should I don't know, maybe you should talk to somebody about it. But a couple of episodes ago on on Teapot, I was talking with Daniel, who lives in Tainan. Who you should really talk to this guy. I think we have a lot of interesting things to say to one another. but he was talking about games as religion and like role playing as religion specifically, through the like ritual of the game, through through the communion of the game, through like the preparation and the sacrament of of, you know, preparing the preparing the dungeon or whatever it is. do you think that there is like any any parallel between like what classically has been religion to people, and and what a game Is and do you think that that's that there's like meat on the bone to discuss? Yeah, I think mm. Obviously I'm already thinking of sort of science or how I would go about researching this, but I'm I'm sure there are many, many papers that look into the idea of T T R PG's religious experiences. I also think personally, like, games are there to explore religion, to explore morality, right? You are a hero. But what kind of hero do you want to be? Are you willing to do I I often joke with my players that if you're running a game with me, there's gotta be at least one ethical dilemma or something slapped in there. That's that's why I play games. It's to I guess answer these ethical dilemmas that you can't in real life. You know? Is it worth it to murder this person who's holding your brother hostage if you're a hero? Because you're a hero. Like what is the ethical statement? Yeah, yeah. Superman would never kill somebody, except for when he does. Yeah. And I think in that way, if religion provides a framework for what is acceptable and unacceptable behavior, and you have a character who let's say follows a religion or is religious That's exactly the line of questioning I want to go down here. I think religion provides people like a framework or a way of answering questions that they run into in their lives. So it's like it's a system of thought, right? And and so aside from from the ritual and the the like fantastical elements of religion, but but religion is a system of thought, I I think RPGs actually in a way are are a religion in that let me phrase myself here. I I don't mean to say that it is my religion. But I I think you could say that that D and D is a simulation, right? It has it has a a way of resolving an unknown variable by by like rolling a dice and adding a modifier and checking to see if it is above or below a thing. And I think instead of it being a a simulation or or or a computer or like a statistical model of something, it it is also any way a religion of this fantasy that that like it is the it is the framework by which decisions are made inside the game itself. so it's a meta religion. I think there is merit to the idea that examining game frameworks is important, specifically the mechanical aspect. Obviously I'm I play a game that is mostly pages and pages and pages of rules, so I'm interested in that aspect. But I think any kind of game from like PBTA to, you know, incredibly crunchy systems, the rules are there for a reason. Sometimes they are to support what you're trying to say in the game, but you know, they provide a way by which we can designate the world and understand it. Something that I got asked was like, Why do you have rules if it's just the game where you talk sit and talk and roll dice? And I said, Well, if I just say, Cam, you take fifty points of damage and you die, you're gonna be like, Well, that's unfair. That's arbitrary, it's not a game. You just decided that. Like we're playing make believe, like that's not fair. But the rules allow us to, in a way, say, Hey, this was sort of pre ordered this was ordained to happen, it was going to happen, and these are the consequences of that specific action. In a way it I guess the game master to take a little bit less blame but it also kind of allows for everyone to have an agreed upon sense of reality. Of course. which yeah, I don't know if it's food for thought, but that's how I think of game systems in general. Yeah, th I I think I wanted to ask that but but it sounds like you've hit it. So what is a game system or like what what is the what d is the system? There's there's the argument online, rules allied. So, you know, the the rules of the game cover up like what it is game doesn't want you to to like have to deal with it some other way, right? So it's like how does a sword go into a body? You roll a D twenty and if it hits then it does one D six of damage. And it it doesn't have to you know there's no other like way of thinking about it aside from that. No, I I I think that's part of the reason why for me at least I consider Powered by the Apocalypse to be much more difficult to run than traditional like Dungeons and Dragons because there are less rules for things. And so when there are less rules you either have to pull from your existing knowledge of other games, or you have to make that up on the spot and kind of have an on fly decision, which I think are skills that really really require experience to have. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Trying to think of other like game systems. Systems in general I think is something that I think has a huge impact on what happens or what kind of outcome happens in a game. I think the type of system matters just as much as, you know, what you're studying or how good the game master is. Well what about the system versus like the setting or the the adventure? Like if if I tried to run the same adventure say in like Vampire the Masquerade, even though say it is like a fantasy, a Western fantasy game. What what if I tried to run a Western fantasy s like adventure in Vampire the Masquerade versus in Shadow Dark, the game that I've always played. Do you think that they would they would inherently play out differently? I think you would just have a harder time. Because you know, genre the I mean, 'cause I I primarily play Cyberpunk, which is the same genre, it's just different systems. I think the system does in a way influence the options that I have in the setting, even though they're all technically the same genre. do I think that there's a lot more importance to what rules we're actually talking about. Even though it doesn't seem like rules are all that important and it's just a role play game, I think At least for me, it's important to remember why they're there in the first place. This is y you're hitting on like a like a Saper Wharf hypothesis of of role playing game outcomes. Like you know, Saper Wharf like like different languages will le like make you leak make you think different things, right? And so now different role playing systems will lead you in different directions or different outcomes. I think definitely has. I've I've definitely messed up a couple of times in running my Dungeons and Dragons campaign where I'll say something like roll memory and then my kids will be like, There literally isn't a role memory skill in Dungeons and Dragons. What are you doing? Yeah, I I said roll luck and dagger heart the other day in the players. There's no such thing as luck and you're like, Well just roll a freaking dice there. You know, somebody please roll a dice. Let me tell you yes or no. Yeah. Luck is a very interesting skill mechanic, I suppose. Yeah, yeah. Some sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. I guess that's that's w yeah what luck is like. you've played games for about five years and now you are starting on researching games and and the outcomes that games have on people's lives for your master's thesis. So do you worry about seeing the games that you play in a purely mechanical way or taking the enjoyment out of out of game playing through looking at it as research, and do you worry about affecting the narrative outcomes of the game by treating it as as a scientific field of study? Well I'm gonna put this out there for all of my former and present and future players. I'm not gonna do weird, unethical things without your consent. I'm I'm actually a little bit worried about being known as a games researcher because for me, first and foremost, I'm I'm a dungeon master and also a game master and a game player, and I'm I'm here to have a good time, I'm here to have fun. I'm not here to conduct research. And I'm I'm personally a little wary of that. I think that if scientists are going in here trying to harvest people data, I'd have many objections. in terms of if I think it'll affect my research or how I think of games, I think the language of bleed and character bleed and learnerative dissonance and all of these scientific terms help to explain what I think a lot of us as players, at least me personally, already feel and know, which is that games can change people's lives and that oftentimes we walk in the door with a character and then that character ends up changing our perspective on our lives. I think these can be really deep things for a lot of people, really important things. And I I think that studying it has given me a little bit of that language to maybe express it in a a better way. But I think that at its core, I guess this idea of games being healing is something that I think a lot of people already know. with this in mind, do you have some sort of ultimate goal? Do you do you like wish to study this to have some understanding that allows you to take some next step? Yeah. this is kind of a I suppose interesting dilemma I'm put in because as somebody researching specifically how Taiwanese people might be playing games differently, that would technically make me the first, I believe, person to look at Taiwanese specific T T RPG game culture. I don't think anyone else has chosen this topic. and I I don't know where my future will lead, but I I feel that this field of study in particular is emerging. I think in the next ten, twenty years we're going to be seeing a lot more talking about it, a lot more research, right? D and D is really popular. it's more popular than it's ever been. and I'm I'm interested to see what kinds of further things can be done with that and You know, I I'm not sure if I'll be back in the US or I'll be here, but I'm interested to see whatever happens. Absolutely. And do you have this is a a question I ask everybody. Yeah. But do you have any book or video game recommendations that that you think are central to formulating your worldview? Yes. I think if you are interested in Cyberpunk, Neuromancer by William Gibson is the book of choice. Agreed. Yeah, in terms of I think books that have changed my life, I think The Phantom Tollbooth is a really great book. Another good book for me. I love that book. I'm trying to think of current reading. most of my current reading is mostly for research. yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well what about the games you currently play? What games have you been playing recently? I think if you want to play Shadowrun but you don't want to have to deal with five hundred pages of rules, you should hit me up and try out Shadowrun Anarchy two point which is the rules light, narrative driven version of Shadowrun. Mm-hmm. I think In terms of games I'm currently playing, I have I'm in a campaign for The Sprawl, which is a powered by the Apocalypse Cyberpunk version of other cyberpunk games. I'm running some cyberpunk red games here and there and you know, I've got a Shadowrun fifth edition campaign that I am a player of, so yeah. That sounds like it's quite a lot. Sounds sounds nice. Sounds like fun. It's a lot of fun. A lot of rules. But that's what we're here for. Yes. Well thank you for Steph and Ryan. Thank you for talking to us. It's been a truly fascinating conversation and I think I have more questions, but but first I need to think about how to send them all. So yeah. Yeah, yeah. Thank you again sometime. Thanks for having me. Of course, and I I do want to ask, in your in your thesis work, as you do all this research, I think that that this is stuff that is useful to a lot of people or a lot of people would be interested. interested in it. So do you plan on like keeping a log of this or or like Sharing your thoughts about the things that you read anywhere. Yes. Something that I'm personally very interested in is I don't just want this to be like five papers published, you know. If I ever get the chance, I'm I'm interested in hearing from people, talking to people, explaining what I'm doing and hearing people's opinions. telling you to start a blog. But but I 'cause that so you could you could write like every time you read a paper, you write about what it's about. So I don't have to read the scientific research. I can read your blog. But okay, okay. Well when you when you get that blog made, you're gonna have to tell me about it. But yeah, again, thank you for stopping by. It is a a a pleasure to talk to you. Yes, thank you so much for having me. Of course. See you later. cam: Since recording this episode, Terri actually joined my Tuesday afternoon dagger heart game. They've only played in one session with us, but said it was a good time, and so I'm always welcoming new players and glad to have new players in, new people to help shape the image and just be there to talk to and be creative with. I want to thank Terri one more time for coming on, and thank you one more time for listening. if you haven't, please do subscribe to TPOD on whatever podcast. app that you use or if you're watching on YouTube, subscribe on YouTube. it it helps. thanks for listening and see you next time. Bye bye.