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Confronting Trauma: The PTSD Therapy Journey · No Shrinking Violets Podcast for Women

• 0:05
  Mary: Welcome to No Shrinking Violence.
• 0:07
  Mary: I'm your host, Mary Rothwell, licensed therapist and certified integrative mental health practitioner.
• 0:13
  Mary: I've created a space where we celebrate the intuition and power of women who want to break free from limiting narratives.
• 0:20
  Mary: We'll explore all realms of wellness what it means to take up space unapologetically, and how your essential nature is key to living life on your terms.
• 0:29
  Mary: It's time to own your space, trust your nature and flourish.
• 0:34
  Mary: Let's dive in.
• 0:35
  Mary: Hey Violets, welcome to the show.
• 0:41
  Mary: I have heard that those going through medical school training often believe they have some of the diagnoses that they learn about.
• 0:49
  Mary: In training for counseling.
• 0:50
  Mary: It isn't uncommon to actually recognize parts of your own psyche that you may have hidden away, or to see your own thoughts and behaviors through a different lens.
• 0:59
  Mary: That's why there's often a requirement or a strong suggestion that those of us in counseling training programs experience therapy for ourselves, because it would be impossible not to learn about psychology, counseling theories and mental health diagnoses without practicing some degree of introspection.
• 1:16
  Mary: Like many people, especially women, in the aftermath of abuse or sexual assault, my guest today held the common misperception that burying feelings and soldiering on is a healthy and desired means of showing strength.
• 1:29
  Mary: In her first counselor education class at the age of 40, she experienced full-blown PTSD symptoms.
• 1:38
  Mary: Linda Knipe is a retired high school counselor.
• 1:40
  Mary: Her career also included roles in social work and as a Red Cross executive director.
• 1:45
  Mary: She also spent several years as a trade magazine executive.
• 1:49
  Mary: She's traveled extensively and is an active volunteer and leader in her community.
• 1:54
  Mary: In her book Braving Therapy, rape, bury, trauma and the Triumphant Journey Over PTSD, she delves into the profound journey of healing and self-discovery From a childhood shaken by grief to surviving a harrowing assault.
• 2:09
  Mary: The author's life is a testament to resilience.
• 2:12
  Mary: Welcome to no Shrinking Violets, linda.
• 2:15
  Linda: Thank you so much, Mary.
• 2:17
  Linda: I appreciate you having me on.
• 2:19
  Mary: Yes, I'm glad that you're here today because we as fellow therapists have a lot that we can dive into.
• 2:26
  Mary: So could we start with you sharing some of your story and kind of what happened to you in your 20s and a little bit of how that led to your decision to put it all into a book?
• 2:40
  Mary: I know that's a big question.
• 2:41
  Mary: Sure.
• 2:44
  Linda: Well, I'll start by saying that I was very fortunate to have a very loving large family that I grew up in and I was an oldest child there were so many of us that I had a brother that was older and then I was the first girl and so I grew up in kind of a not only on a pedestal.
• 3:15
  Linda: I was the good girl you know, helping, being helpful but taking care of kids throughout my childhood.
• 3:25
  Linda: I became a really good reader of people and was mature beyond my years and that's how I grew up.
• 3:33
  Linda: So it was very loving, very loving childhood.
• 3:37
  Linda: And I had a really humiliating dating experience in college that I swore I would never talk about.
• 3:50
  Linda: I was embarrassed and just decided I would not think about that again.
• 4:01
  Linda: And then I didn't.
• 4:05
  Linda: And then I went on.
• 4:07
  Linda: I moved out of state for a job as a social worker and I had an apartment on my was caught so went through the whole legal system and all of that, and then after that I just buried that and moved on with life.
• 4:39
  Linda: Wow, and I moved on for almost 20 years before I went back to graduate school for counselor education and in my first class we were talking about therapy and actually I had had an unfortunate experience with a therapist.
• 5:01
  Linda: That was not good for me soon after the rape happened, and so I had a real bad taste in my mouth about therapy.
• 5:09
  Linda: And I asked a question about that in this counseling class and he got really quiet and he said well, in this case of rape that's happened a long time ago, which was my situation.
• 5:20
  Linda: And he started talking and I was just like I felt like somebody had thrown something at me and the PTSD symptoms started almost immediately and it was full blown PTSD I had to be experiencing.
• 5:35
  Linda: I had nightmares, I had strange sensations, I couldn't stop thinking about it.
• 5:40
  Linda: So I finally went back to him.
• 5:42
  Linda: I didn't know what was happening, I just felt like I was going crazy, and he explained that to me.
• 5:48
  Linda: He explained how you compartmentalize those feelings, you stuff them away, and, not understanding why I couldn't do that, he said that you cannot with PTSD, you have to work on it and you really need to get a therapist.
• 6:10
  Linda: And so that was the start of that journey.
• 6:14
  Mary: Wow, yeah, you must have had some pretty strong compartments in your brain to lock that away for that long.
• 6:23
  Linda: Yeah Well, I have always described PTSD for people, the compartmentalization because lots of people talk about compartmentalization now but I don't think people really quite understand it.
• 6:38
  Linda: So I've always described it as that junk closet that you have in the house, or the junk drawer that you, everything that's sitting around that you don't know what to do with.
• 6:52
  Linda: And you need to.
• 6:53
  Linda: You need to get it gone, like for me.
• 6:57
  Linda: The junk closet was like I like a tidy surrounding, and if something was sitting out I didn't know what to do with it, but people were coming over.
• 7:06
  Linda: I would just scoop everything up and put it in the junk closet and you never go back and clean that out because you didn't know what to do with the stuff to begin with.
• 7:17
  Linda: So it just sits in the back of the closet, forgotten about.
• 7:21
  Linda: And every time of the closet forgotten about, and every time you need to clean up quickly, you throw something else in the junk closet until over the years it gets very full and eventually there's so much in there that the door starts popping open and then stuff spills out that you don't know why it's out.
• 7:42
  Linda: It just was the stuff that was in there, that's just all falling out.
• 7:45
  Linda: That's what it's like in your head, in that compartment in your head where you put the really uncomfortable thoughts that you, or feelings that you don't know what to do with.
• 7:56
  Mary: Mm-hmm.
• 7:56
  Mary: Yeah, it's funny you mentioned that exact analogy because I've I talked with a therapist in a past episode, called Therapy in a Nutshell, and we use the exact analogy of a junk drawer and when you finally open it, it is so overwhelming because you find things in there from years ago and it's the same thing.
• 8:15
  Mary: What am I supposed to do with this now?
• 8:17
  Linda: Right right.
• 8:19
  Mary: Yeah.
• 8:20
  Linda: And and things pop out that are like they don't seem to have anything to do with what you experienced.
• 8:33
  Linda: It's just other garbage that you put in there.
• 8:36
  Mary: Yeah.
• 8:37
  Linda: It's just all falling out on you now.
• 8:39
  Mary: Yeah, yeah.
• 8:39
  Mary: So obviously, when you, this class, and you intersected and that was life's way of saying, okay, we're going to like rip the door off, this junk closet now.
• 8:50
  Mary: But when you look back on your life for those 20 or so years between when you had the traumas and when you actually, you know, recognized I have to clean this closet out.
• 9:01
  Mary: I have to clean this closet out In hindsight, did you have things that you experienced, like physical symptoms or things that you would avoid, that you never really connected with?
• 9:11
  Mary: Why?
• 9:15
  Linda: Not really.
• 9:16
  Linda: Once the PTSD started, there was a lot that I avoided, but up until that time, no, I think it was shoved so far back in the closet.
• 9:27
  Linda: I do think that there were control issues, like I needed to keep control of things better than I had before, but I didn't recognize that as anything that was really a problem.
• 9:48
  Mary: Yeah, so when you this started for you you know you had this discussion in class what can you describe a little bit what that felt like for you?
• 9:58
  Mary: Was it more depression, more anxiety?
• 10:03
  Linda: When the symptoms started.
• 10:04
  Mary: Yeah.
• 10:05
  Linda: So immediately in class.
• 10:08
  Linda: What happened is, when he started using this example that was my life I had I felt like I needed to blink really quickly and we were all.
• 10:22
  Linda: There were like a dozen of us.
• 10:24
  Linda: It was a summer class there were a dozen of us sitting in a circle and I knew if I started blinking really quickly people would know that something was wrong, and so I didn't even listen.
• 10:35
  Linda: Really, I just like I was just focused on not blinking.
• 10:40
  Linda: When I left class and I stopped at a store on the way home and I had a re-experiencing of somebody climbing on me, like it was a physical sensation and I was.
• 10:56
  Linda: I was just kind of blown away and I kept telling myself stop thinking about this.
• 11:03
  Linda: And I couldn't stop it and so then I pulled out a piece of paper and I started writing about what I was experiencing and finally that sensation stopped.
• 11:17
  Linda: But I started having those kind of re-experiencing sensations and nightmares.
• 11:27
  Linda: I had had nightmares throughout my adult life, since I was early 20s, about like ghosts chasing me or like people being in my house that were chasing me and I was always running through dark halls and things like that, and I didn't relate that to to being raped.
• 11:53
  Linda: But you know, when I think back on it now, I mean it was so clear that that's what I was dreaming about.
• 12:00
  Linda: But I had that happen a lot more frequently and I had really strange sensations like just creepy healings in my body and stuff.
• 12:09
  Linda: So all of that and like constantly a constant inner dialogue of beating myself up for not being able to control it.
• 12:19
  Linda: And you know I was, I was more capable than that and so, yeah, I was kind of consumed with all of the symptoms of the PTSD.
• 12:33
  Mary: Yeah.
• 12:34
  Linda: Yeah.
• 12:40
  Mary: And you know it is really a lot of.
• 12:40
  Mary: It is a body experience and our bodies remember which is.
• 12:42
  Mary: You know, you started to have those sensations that long after, because now the door was open, yeah yeah.
• 12:49
  Linda: So yeah, very easily startled.
• 12:50
  Linda: Like my startled, reflexes were on high alert.
• 12:54
  Mary: Mm-hmm.
• 12:55
  Mary: Yeah, and you mentioned so initially when you reported.
• 13:00
  Mary: Because you reported when someone broke into your apartment and it sounds like right.
• 13:04
  Mary: It because you reported when someone broke into your apartment and it sounds like right, and it sounds like you tried therapy at that point, or at least maybe you were referred somewhere to process but, you didn't.
• 13:13
  Mary: It was not a positive experience and I hear that so often with people not even necessarily after such a traumatic experience but they don't feel like therapy is not going to work for me or they sort of lump all therapists together.
• 13:27
  Mary: That must have been really hard for you to have that experience and then not have someone who was able to kind of receive that and help you work through it at that point.
• 13:38
  Linda: Right, it was the.
• 13:40
  Linda: What happened with the therapy.
• 13:43
  Linda: I went through the whole legal thing and then somebody gave me a referral to a therapist who was a psychologist that I got the referral to and I called and this person called me back and it was a and it was the psychologist was a man, and the person that called me back was a woman with a deep voice and I thought, well, maybe it was a man.
• 14:10
  Linda: And when I went in I was talking with this woman who was also the, she was actually the psychologist's wife and she was a clinical social worker.
• 14:24
  Linda: And I finally said are you Dr?
• 14:27
  Linda: So-and-so?
• 14:28
  Linda: And she said, no, I'm, I'm his wife, mrs and the name.
• 14:33
  Linda: And I and I said, but I called him and she said, well, I thought you would want to meet with me because I'm, because you know I'm a woman.
• 14:42
  Linda: So that already didn't sit well.
• 14:44
  Linda: And then she was very directive.
• 14:51
  Linda: We never talked about the assault, but I felt very judged by her.
• 14:53
  Linda: It was just a very bad experience and I felt like I already.
• 14:56
  Linda: You know, when you're talking about therapy with PTSD, control is very important.
• 15:04
  Linda: It's very important for the patient to feel in control of their own lives and immediately control had been taken away from me.
• 15:11
  Linda: The person that I had made an appointment with was not the person that they made a decision about that.
• 15:18
  Linda: She made a decision about everything we were talking about.
• 15:21
  Linda: I left a very bad taste in my mouth and I went a couple of times and then I talked to my older brother and I said I just feel terrible when I go.
• 15:30
  Linda: And he said you should not feel worse when you talk to a therapist.
• 15:34
  Linda: If you do, it's not the person you should.
• 15:36
  Linda: So I left therapy and I never pursued it again.
• 15:44
  Linda: That's when I really just decided I just needed to put it away and move on.
• 15:48
  Mary: Yeah Well, and then you also mentioned the and you didn't use the word shame, but that inner voice saying you should be dealing with this better.
• 15:59
  Mary: And you sort of looked at, you talked a little bit about when you were younger, you were that older sibling and so you already were someone who took care of other people.
• 16:09
  Mary: And so you have this experience and you're like I'm going to shove all this into the closet because I'm fine, I'm really fine.
• 16:16
  Mary: And then you find out you're not.
• 16:18
  Mary: And then that starts of like I really should be able to handle this better.
• 16:22
  Mary: And it's such a part of that experience of the shame, whether it's initially I mean, I worked with college students for a long time and I'm going to say it wasn't common, but it wasn't uncommon to have girls that would have an experience on a date or at a party that there was an assault, that happened, and often that would be her go-to.
• 16:43
  Mary: I should have done this, or why did?
• 16:45
  Linda: I Absolutely yeah, and when I had the experience in college, I never identified it as rape until I finally talked about it.
• 16:55
  Linda: It was one of the things when I went to therapy that I had sworn I would never talk about, and I was afraid a therapist would be able to dig it out of me, and so that worried me, and my marriage was not in a good situation and so I wasn't going to talk about that.
• 17:14
  Linda: So I entered therapy like 20 years later when I finally found a good therapist with a lot of things that I swore I would never talk about, and so I was very invested in keeping everything close to the vest and only like only talking about certain things.
• 17:34
  Mary: Yeah, yeah.
• 17:35
  Mary: And that's you know.
• 17:36
  Mary: Again, with certain personalities, it's even you even want more of that sense of control.
• 17:39
  Mary: And it's you know again, with certain personalities, it's even you even want more of that sense of control.
• 17:42
  Mary: And you know that it's such a complicated issue that comes up.
• 17:49
  Linda: And shame is huge.
• 17:50
  Linda: Yes, and I talk about that quite a bit in my book Shame and Vulnerability, vulnerability and um it's.
• 18:07
  Linda: I also find when I've done author talks that very, um, very accomplished people in the room will be nodding their head.
• 18:10
  Linda: Yes, when I'm talking about shame and vulnerability and keeping things to yourself and beating yourself up and they're all going, that resonates with a lot of people, especially a lot of high achieving people.
• 18:26
  Mary: Yeah, well, I think high.
• 18:27
  Mary: I mean really, this podcast is really, I think, 99% women listeners.
• 18:32
  Mary: And I think that is something that we have sort of we don't, we haven't cornered the market, because I think men carry shame in a way also.
• 18:40
  Mary: But you know, I think as women who, like you said, are high achieving or in their family had a caretaking role, and all of a sudden they need to kind of say I need somebody to help care for me right now because I have all this junk spread around me and I have no idea what to do with it.
• 18:59
  Mary: That must have been a pretty scary for you when all this kind of started to, when that door flew open on the closet.
• 19:07
  Mary: That must have been pretty scary.
• 19:09
  Linda: Oh yeah, I felt like I was going crazy.
• 19:11
  Linda: I didn't know what was happening.
• 19:13
  Mary: Yeah.
• 19:14
  Linda: And yeah, so I, I said I, after I talked to my professor, I said about trying to find a therapist who was, uh, an expert in um trauma and sexual trauma.
• 19:29
  Linda: And uh, I talked to a number of people but my therapist said why don't you come in and we'll talk and see how you feel?
• 19:36
  Linda: If you feel like this would be a good fit, then we'll work together.
• 19:40
  Linda: So I did.
• 19:42
  Linda: That was many years ago, 25 or 28.
• 19:47
  Linda: And I actually saw him yesterday.
• 19:49
  Linda: I see him maybe once or twice a year now and we were still talking about that caregiver.
• 19:55
  Linda: You're the one that's always taking care of I had said to him the last time I saw him I'm just the person that shows up.
• 20:02
  Mary: Yeah.
• 20:02
  Linda: And I was really struggling.
• 20:03
  Linda: I had kind of forgotten that I needed to talk to people.
• 20:08
  Linda: And we talked this time because I was feeling fine again.
• 20:16
  Linda: And he said well, we really need to.
• 20:17
  Linda: He said so, you don't get into this situation again.
• 20:22
  Linda: He said you're like the giving tree and he said I hate that story because the tree always just gives and gives and gives.
• 20:30
  Linda: And the boy if you know the story the boy just keeps on taking, taking, taking right to the very end.
• 20:37
  Linda: And he said you need to, you need to also, you know, take care of yourself.
• 20:44
  Linda: Yeah, it's funny that you say that, because we were just talking about that.
• 20:49
  Linda: And I said so, you know, I've gone through a lifetime and I'm still working on it.
• 20:56
  Mary: That's ingrained very early and you know, I think it's we really.
• 21:01
  Mary: I think when we have the skills and the training that we have, you can see that in other people and sometimes it's like, why don't other people see that in me?
• 21:11
  Mary: Do you not see that I'm struggling?
• 21:12
  Mary: But we also don't ask, we don't admit like, oh, you know, like I am okay, I am okay.
• 21:17
  Mary: And then inside sometimes you're not.
• 21:19
  Mary: But I think it's really hard to find the language when you're the caretaker to say to somebody else I'm actually not doing okay right now.
• 21:29
  Linda: That's very difficult to find that language.
• 21:31
  Linda: I actually finally realized I could reach out to people on text and say this is what's going on with me, because I know I couldn't start by bringing it up after a lifetime of being the listener.
• 21:47
  Linda: So I shot some texts to some people that I'm very close to and that helped.
• 21:55
  Linda: It was like throwing your head over the ring.
• 21:56
  Linda: But it's funny that you say about the caretakers, because I have a nurse who is a trauma, an ICU nurse, who read my book on an overnight shift.
• 22:12
  Linda: She was on and she said all the same stuff.
• 22:15
  Linda: She said I'm the person who takes care of everybody else and I am there for people and I have this self-image of just having everything handled.
• 22:28
  Linda: And she said I'm always there worrying about other people and showing up for them.
• 22:33
  Linda: And then when things are rough for me, I wonder why people don't ask me if I'm okay.
• 22:39
  Linda: She said because if people did ask me if I'm okay, I'd say yeah, I'm, I'm doing just fine, because I want to keep up that image of myself as being uh, being together and being able to handle everything, when actually I'm not.
• 22:55
  Linda: And she said when I.
• 22:57
  Linda: And she said and then I'll go out hiking to kind of relieve the stress of this job.
• 23:02
  Linda: She said and I realized reading your book that maybe I should have somebody I can go talk to.
• 23:10
  Mary: Yeah, and that makes me think a little bit.
• 23:12
  Mary: I think one of the things that you mentioned in the profile that I read in as far as discussions on a podcast is resentment versus gratitude.
• 23:22
  Mary: Yes, so you know, I think every now and then, when you are that caretaker and people don't seem to notice that you're struggling, there can be maybe we don't even recognize resentment Like.
• 23:35
  Mary: Even though we're not admitting it, we can also feel resentment like why aren't you seeing this?
• 23:40
  Mary: Or nobody's taking care of me, but you know so, but you maybe you're thinking resentment in a different context.
• 23:48
  Mary: So can you talk a little about gratitude and how that has helped you?
• 23:52
  Linda: Yeah, I think.
• 23:53
  Linda: Oh, it's so interesting.
• 23:56
  Linda: I'm just putting things together in my mind right now, but I was just listening to the Glennon Doyle podcast and she had a Martha Beck on, who is a writer and researcher, who was talking about just understanding what we, what our longing is.
• 24:19
  Linda: There are things in our life that we really want to go toward and we, especially women, get pulled in so many different directions and are trying to show up for other people that we a lot of times put our own needs or desires aside and that that can't really listen to ourselves because we're just pulled in so many directions.
• 24:46
  Linda: When you are taking care of your own needs and what you are, you're pursuing the things that matter to you, that you're longing to do, that then you're better able to see the good in life, to show up for other people when you've taken care of yourself and met your own needs.
• 25:07
  Linda: And I think that for me, when I finally, I finally just felt good about the situation I was in and, all of a sudden, just sitting in the sunshine and being under a tree and having this, you know, having this like shabby little cottage that I love to come to in the summertime and I just didn't want for anything else.
• 25:34
  Linda: And I think that when you're finally taking care of yourself and intentionally taking care of yourself that you can suddenly see what you've got and you stop trying to fill the holes with other stuff, because always before it was always about you know what else can I do, what can I add on to my home, what can I?
• 25:58
  Linda: You know what can I buy.
• 26:00
  Linda: And suddenly, when you're taking care of yourself intentionally, you can feel grateful for the sunshine and the greenery or the you know, whatever you have and the whole resentment we were talking.
• 26:22
  Linda: And it kind of goes back even to the way we process trauma and scary stuff in the part of our brain, the amygdala that is there to protect us, and in our reptilian brain.
• 26:39
  Linda: The way you protect yourself is you focus on the stuff that is is wrong and you need to protect yourself against that.
• 26:50
  Linda: If, if something seems threatening, you need to pay attention to it and protect yourself.
• 26:57
  Linda: You need to get ready with um by being vigilant, um and um in life and in relationships.
• 27:07
  Linda: You know you focus on the stuff that's wrong so that you can try and fix it, because at some point in our lives we needed to do that to protect ourselves, to keep ourselves alive.
• 27:22
  Linda: But that's not the case now.
• 27:24
  Linda: But people naturally go to what's wrong.
• 27:27
  Linda: They even said on the internet, like on YouTube, they found that people will click on negative headlines far more than they will anything that's positive, because you're just focusing on that negative stuff, and so you have to be really intentional to take your focus off of that and focus on the things that you have, the things that are good in your life, the people that you love, what's good about those people, not what's wrong with them.
• 28:01
  Linda: And when you can do that, then gratitude can come.
• 28:08
  Mary: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and we think of gratitude as such a simple thing.
• 28:13
  Mary: And it is simple but it's really powerful.
• 28:15
  Mary: And you know, when you talk about consuming, we know that we can't just survive on chocolate cupcakes and you know hot dogs, but when we think about what we're putting into our brain, I don't think we always think the same way.
• 28:30
  Mary: And now it's everywhere we can so easily consume negative and that's out there because they want us to click on it.
• 28:37
  Mary: That's what gets the clicks.
• 28:38
  Mary: But I think you use the word intentional and I think if we intentionally curate a life where we are focused on things that are positive and bring us joy, and that doesn't have to be like a two-week vacation in Hawaii, You're talking about very simple things.
• 28:57
  Mary: I have a garden that I love and even appreciating the rain after seven days of dryness.
• 29:06
  Mary: It's these little things.
• 29:08
  Mary: Or for me it's like a perfect dirty chai.
• 29:12
  Mary: You know a dirty iced chai is perfect.
• 29:15
  Mary: So just little things that you build into your day and really be part of that experience for just that time, and it is amazing how it can help your brain and it can calm down.
• 29:27
  Mary: You mentioned the amygdala who, yeah, she's trying to protect us like that overprotective friend, but she overreacts, often scanning for things that we need to be afraid of and aware of, and sometimes it's like you know, you can just chill out and I'm just going to enjoy my chai right now.
• 29:44
  Linda: Yeah, and I think you asked me about the difference between not being in therapy and being in therapy and I read a description of what goes on with the amygdala after trauma.
• 29:56
  Linda: It's like an amygdala hijack.
• 29:58
  Linda: So a description I love about memory is memory is biology plus biography.
• 30:08
  Linda: So the biology is the sensations that we experience when we experience something and the biography is the narrative that we put to those sensations within that experience and then we stick that in our memory and it's stored correctly.
• 30:26
  Linda: And in the situation of trauma, when you have things that are so uncomfortable that you can't think through them, you just shove them away.
• 30:40
  Linda: To have all of these reactions like hypervigilance and your breathing gets elevated and your heart starts pumping faster and your eyes dilate.
• 30:59
  Linda: Those are all things that your body is doing to protect you.
• 31:04
  Linda: If you need to have sharp vision to watch, to see if any animals are going to jump out in the darkness at you, back in the you know, back in the start of time, and you need to breathe faster and your heart needs to pump more to oxygenate your muscles so that you'll be able to fight your way out.
• 31:28
  Linda: You know those are all save yourself, save yourself.
• 31:32
  Linda: But we don't really need to do that now.
• 31:34
  Linda: We need to be able to process those memories.
• 31:37
  Linda: So the difference between no therapy and therapy is no therapy is well, eventually those sensations will go back in the closet, but they'll pop out again sometime.
• 31:48
  Linda: Where in therapy you get to put a biography, you get to put a narrative to those sensations and store them in your memory where they belong and not in the junk closet.
• 32:02
  Mary: Yeah, and we have to complete the cycle.
• 32:03
  Mary: And that's what I think people don't always know that when something happens so, for instance, you're almost in a car accident, right, you react like you have to react, but when your car is finally stopped and you're safe, that's when your body starts to shake you recognize that you're crying or you're sobbing, whatever it is, and that's your body recognizing okay, we're safe.
• 32:26
  Mary: Now let's offload all of this emotion and all of these physiological things we needed to do to get you through that, and then we eventually calm down because we're safe.
• 32:37
  Mary: But if we never process the trauma and we throw it in the closet, it's just knocking around in there till one day it's going to say hey, by the way, like I'm still here, you never completed the cycle and that's part of it.
• 32:51
  Mary: And that's why these simple people, the things that people think are very simple, like deep breathing and mindfulness, and you know, like the gratitude, all of the things that subtly rewire in the background of processing the trauma, are the things that get that parasympathetic nervous system back on track and we can fully say this is now a memory, it's not an emotional situation anymore.
• 33:17
  Mary: So you know, and the one thing that I think is important and I think this is another thing you mentioned is, for a little bit of time you're going to feel worse before you feel better, because you're looking finally at everything in that closet and it can feel very overwhelming.
• 33:32
  Mary: So sometimes I'll have people start therapy and they might come two or three times and we're really starting to do good work and then they ghost me and I get it.
• 33:42
  Mary: That's not about me, that is the overwhelm of I'm not ready, this is way too much.
• 33:48
  Mary: So did you experience that, that feeling of like, oh my gosh, this is feeling way worse, and then you started to feel better.
• 33:57
  Linda: Oh, it was way worse for a long time, but it's because I was burying so much too that I was determined not to talk about, and there was so much going on at the time that it took a very long time to kind of root out all of the therapy that I had felt like I was going to die, like I had felt that I was lying underneath my murderer at the time and I didn't know that because I had always looked at it like I didn't get hurt.
• 34:48
  Linda: This was just, you know, I had sex.
• 34:52
  Linda: That's how I was going to look at it, like wasn't my choice, but that's all it was, wasn't hurt.
• 34:59
  Linda: And when I started to really uncover the feelings that I, somebody else in my office who lived in my neighborhood, had been attacked and raped within a couple of weeks before I was, and she had been hurt, and so I was, in this experience, feeling like this guy was going to hurt me when he was done and I was trying to figure out what I could do to save myself.
• 35:31
  Linda: And then I went into this I wonder how it's going to feel to pass over.
• 35:36
  Linda: Like that's where my head was at the time and I never thought about that.
• 35:41
  Linda: I buried that so deep that when it finally came out and I was describing it, I remember I was talking in the tiniest voice ever.
• 35:51
  Linda: I was talking about how everything in my life was in that one moment and I was trying to.
• 35:59
  Linda: I was thinking about what it would feel like when I was being killed.
• 36:03
  Linda: And I remember when I was done talking and I look up, my therapist just looked stricken and he said I never realized what you were really experiencing until just now and after that, like I felt so free, like I had just opened up this big well when I left there.
• 36:24
  Linda: And then within a day depression struck and it was a major depression that lasted for a very long time and then I had to deal with the depression.
• 36:34
  Linda: Wow, there was lots more to work through.
• 36:40
  Mary: Oh, yeah, I'm sure and I think you mentioned this also.
• 36:45
  Mary: Did you also have some suicidal ideation as part of that?
• 36:49
  Linda: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 36:51
  Linda: I think it was like, how do I get out of this pain?
• 36:57
  Linda: And things were not going well with my marriage.
• 37:02
  Linda: The one thing that saved me, I think, was just the idea that my boys were all elementary age kids at the time and I was just I can't do anything that would.
• 37:17
  Linda: That would hurt them.
• 37:19
  Linda: Um, so that was a really real protective factor.
• 37:24
  Linda: But other than that, I just I felt so awful and so damaged and, um, like I was never going to be able to wade through everything.
• 37:35
  Linda: I still wasn't talking about the things that I swore I would never talk about.
• 37:39
  Linda: The first time my therapist said to me well, we haven't talked about your marriage, we'll talk about that next time.
• 37:45
  Linda: And I said to him my marriage is just fine, we don't need to talk about that.
• 37:49
  Linda: So I'm sure there was a big no need to talk about the marriage.
• 37:56
  Linda: I doesn't want to.
• 37:58
  Linda: So that was the course of my therapy.
• 38:00
  Linda: It was a lot of forward and backward.
• 38:02
  Linda: I wouldn't talk about a lot of stuff, because one of the things that my therapist said right to start is you are in charge here, we will talk about whatever you want to talk about and it doesn't matter.
• 38:13
  Linda: But the problem with that is, if you talk about whatever you want to talk about, people will know what you're thinking about, and you want to be able to control what other people know about you.
• 38:23
  Linda: So, uh, so a lot of times it was very difficult to go in and talk about anything, and it took me several years to talk about the stuff that I had sworn I wouldn't talk about.
• 38:36
  Linda: It was several years before I realized that the dating incident had actually been a rape.
• 38:43
  Linda: It was just and after.
• 39:14
  Mary: That is when I really going to continue to be miserable and sick until I finally just sucked it up and talked about it.
• 39:17
  Mary: Yeah, and I think, knowing that depression is often part of that journey because I think that's where people can falter and really think I cannot come back from this there's something wrong with me, I think, to normalize that that's part of the journey and there's another side to that.
• 39:32
  Mary: It can be hard to see that.
• 39:34
  Mary: You mentioned protective factors and that's not something we always talk about when people are thinking about ending their lives, but that's so important when you think about why are you still here?
• 39:44
  Mary: Because those things are valid your children, or even those little things that we mentioned that you know sunlight gives you hope, or you know you have that one thing you pass on your way to walking, to work or whatever those things are really focusing.
• 40:00
  Mary: To go back to what we said before, to focus on those things as a way to try to get you to the next day, because each day then can be a next step towards healing.
• 40:11
  Mary: So I know that you know it's such a powerful story.
• 40:15
  Mary: I know your book is really focusing a lot on how therapy helps.
• 40:20
  Mary: So if somebody's listening to this and they know in their gut, in their heart, they need to start therapy, but they're afraid what would you?
• 40:33
  Linda: say to them Well, I've said this before and I believe this completely If you, even if the thought crosses your mind that maybe therapy would be helpful, you should start trying to seek out a therapist, and it may not be that the first person that you talk to is the right therapist.
• 40:55
  Linda: The most effective part of therapy is your relationship with the therapist, and so it is important to find somebody to talk to, that you connect with and that you're talking about the right stuff right away.
• 41:16
  Linda: So I do have some lead magnets for my book that talk about the ways to find a good therapist, the questions that you want to ask when you're interviewing, because you should be able to interview therapists.
• 41:30
  Linda: I know a lot of times it's hard to find therapy, especially when you're going to a mental health situation, a mental health office that they're going to just give you a therapist that's got some room in their schedule.
• 41:44
  Linda: But if that is not a helpful therapist for you, don't quit.
• 41:51
  Linda: Tell somebody that this is not a good working relationship for me.
• 41:59
  Linda: I need to find somebody else and continue to look.
• 42:03
  Linda: But once you get into therapy, a lot of people will go to therapy until they start to feel better and then they'll stop, and that is not completing therapy, that's quitting therapy when you feel better, and I did that with medications and I would.
• 42:25
  Linda: They would give me an antidepressant and it always had.
• 42:28
  Linda: There was always something about the antidepressant that was a little side effect that I didn't like, and so I would take it.
• 42:35
  Linda: I would start to feel better and I'd quit and then eventually the depression is going to come back and then I would start the cycle over and the same thing, and I've talked to people who have done this.
• 42:46
  Linda: I talked to one woman who read my book and she said I started therapy five times and every time I feel better and I never thought about the fact that I never completed therapy, like I always just kept starting therapy and then I'd feel better.
• 43:04
  Linda: Journey of real transformation to become your authentic, the authentic person that you were meant to be.
• 43:15
  Linda: And that isn't a quick thing.
• 43:18
  Linda: And fortunately, my therapist even when I got past the PTSD, I finally started to feel some emotion because I was very, I was very cut off from my emotions and he kept.
• 43:38
  Linda: He kept explaining to me where we were going.
• 43:41
  Linda: I was like and I would say, where are we going?
• 43:44
  Linda: And he would explain to me but I would like I'd get it when he said it, and then I'd walk out and I'm like I just don't.
• 43:53
  Linda: It was like I don't know if you had this experience in math class, but I would be in math class and the teacher would explain some theory or concept and I'd go, I got it.
• 44:08
  Linda: Okay, I understand that.
• 44:09
  Linda: And then you take it home to do in homework and it would be all a blur again.
• 44:12
  Linda: And that's exactly how I felt when he would explain what it was that we were working toward and I would understand it and be like, yes, that's what I want.
• 44:24
  Linda: But then when I'd leave, I wouldn't again.
• 44:28
  Linda: And my sister-in-law and I'd leave, I wouldn't again.
• 44:33
  Linda: And my sister-in-law I mean, this is a protective thing that we do had breast cancer and she lived in Europe and was proficient in speaking French and when she came over here to visit she had to translate doctor's orders into English to be able to bring over with her so she could continue to get treatment in the US.
• 44:53
  Linda: And she said and I got to the part where they were explaining about the actual cancer and she said I couldn't translate it.
• 45:00
  Linda: She said my mind just wouldn't let me translate it.
• 45:04
  Linda: And that was exactly and I was like, oh, it just showed so clearly what we do to protect ourselves from stuff that's hard to accept.
• 45:17
  Mary: Yeah, yeah, that's a great example, both of those things.
• 45:21
  Mary: The math class, yeah, like you're like oh yeah, I got it, and then later you're like wait what?
• 45:27
  Linda: Which is why, like, you need to keep working on it until you get it.
• 45:32
  Mary: Yeah, yeah.
• 45:33
  Mary: Well, it is very.
• 45:34
  Mary: It can be very difficult to find a therapist and I want to acknowledge that and you know we will link your lead magnet to the show notes.
• 45:42
  Mary: But there are often therapists I know for me.
• 45:46
  Mary: I allow people to talk with me for a 20-minute consultation.
• 45:51
  Mary: You're vetting that therapist also and you're right, in certain agencies, if you call an agency, they're going to assign you to whoever they have open.
• 46:00
  Mary: So if you prefer male or female, or you can say I'd like somebody with this expertise.
• 46:06
  Mary: But I think the other thing that's important to know as a consumer of therapy is you don't have to know what's wrong.
• 46:13
  Mary: You can feel totally at loose ends and going through like roller coasters of emotion and you don't have to be able to go in and say here's what my issue is.
• 46:23
  Mary: That's for the therapist to figure out.
• 46:25
  Mary: And if you go through three sessions and you aren't connecting, you make a great point that all research shows the most impactful thing is that connection, having somebody that is focusing on you for that hour of therapy.
• 46:40
  Mary: And if you feel like it's not working for you, you can say I need a referral.
• 46:47
  Mary: Or you can say I don't feel like this is working that therapist's feelings aren't your responsibility, right.
• 46:55
  Linda: So I will say, as a person who's dealt with depression, that when I get depressed and I've heard other people with depression say this like the idea of explaining anything is overwhelming, because I think one of the reasons that we're depressed is everything is just a big jumble in our minds, and so it is.
• 47:16
  Linda: It is, uh, kind of an overwhelming thought to have to go try and explain it to anybody when you can't even sort it out for yourself, which is why you don't talk to people.
• 47:31
  Linda: It's not because I want to always have people think that I've got everything handled.
• 47:36
  Linda: It's that it's such a jumble I couldn't, I don't, I can't talk about it in my own head, I couldn't possibly.
• 47:43
  Linda: And with the right therapist you're talking about the right stuff immediately.
• 47:48
  Linda: You're talking about the right stuff immediately.
• 47:53
  Linda: You'll know when they're just giving you the opening to talk about the right stuff and you don't have to be able to do it in your head or do it with anybody else.
• 48:02
  Linda: But if you're talking to the right therapist, you're going to feel it right away that you're talking about the right stuff, and it may take several tries, but do not if it's not the right person.
• 48:13
  Linda: Don't just walk away and stop.
• 48:17
  Linda: It was like with the medication, with me, you know I'd be like, oh, I'm okay and stop the medication, but I wasn't okay and it wasn't until and I am not.
• 48:30
  Linda: I am not a person that's on medication.
• 48:32
  Linda: I know people who've been on medication for 20 or 30 years.
• 48:36
  Linda: I think that therapy needs to go along with medication in order for it all to work, and then you can stop the medication.
• 48:46
  Mary: Yeah, under supervision, and yeah, you have to know we have to be ready for what's coming next, but I think we want so badly to be quote better.
• 48:55
  Mary: But it's not linear.
• 48:56
  Mary: Life isn't linear.
• 48:57
  Mary: The journey of healing isn't linear.
• 49:00
  Mary: So I love that you still go back, for you know an update or you know a revisiting of things, because you know, don't rush it.
• 49:11
  Mary: There's a lot that comes after the processing of hard things, because then you have to figure out, like you mentioned before, we do what we have to do in the moment to survive, and then those things don't keep working, so we have to figure out what to do instead, and that's where the next phase really comes in of therapy.
• 49:30
  Linda: Right, and I do talk.
• 49:31
  Linda: I talk about what comes after at the end of the book, the last section of the book and and it's about you know how your relationships may change.
• 49:43
  Linda: And my husband and I, the father of my children and I split up.
• 49:49
  Linda: But because we split up, I met the man of my dreams and he is married to the person who he always should have been with and we have a good friendship.
• 50:04
  Linda: But I never would have met my soulmate if we had stayed together.
• 50:12
  Linda: So you know, sometimes you have to give up something you love to get something better.
• 50:17
  Linda: And I talk about the things we need to do to maintain good health, and it is all intentional stuff.
• 50:40
  Mary: I have to be intentional about my eating and intentional about my exercise and what I do for my brain health and everything.
• 50:46
  Linda: So yeah, Well, linda, before we end, say again the name of your book and tell us your website and where people can get my lead magnets, which are about how to find a therapist, the kind of questions you can ask a therapist, the kind of prompts you can give yourself when you go to the therapist and you can't think of anything else to say.
• 51:29
  Linda: What can get you talking.
• 51:31
  Mary: Yeah, in the show notes we'll have your website so people can find you, and they can find you on social media.
• 51:35
  Mary: So I want to thank you so much for being here today.
• 51:38
  Mary: This has been really a wonderful conversation.
• 51:42
  Linda: Well, thank you so much.
• 51:44
  Linda: I've really enjoyed this.
• 51:46
  Mary: And I want to thank everyone for listening.
• 51:48
  Mary: If you're struggling with depression, anxiety or the effects of trauma, take the first step to get help.
• 51:53
  Mary: I know it's really hard.
• 51:55
  Mary: One way to find a therapist is through psychologytodaycom.
• 51:59
  Mary: You can sort by geography.
• 52:01
  Mary: You can sort by issues.
• 52:04
  Mary: You can sort by the gender that you want for your therapist.
• 52:08
  Mary: I'll link that in the show notes.
• 52:10
  Mary: The gender that you want for your therapist I'll link that in the show notes.
• 52:13
  Mary: If you feel that you're in crisis, go to the closest ER.
• 52:14
  Mary: Talk to a trusted friend to help you find what you need, or be the trusted friend If you sense someone you know is struggling.
• 52:21
  Mary: Share this episode as a starting point for offering support.
• 52:24
  Mary: Sometimes all it takes is being seen to start the path to healing.
• 52:29
  Mary: And until next time, remember that you are an amazing, resilient, vibrant violet, even if for now, you need a little extra care.
• 52:38
  Mary: Thank you.