Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #429 Jason Flom with Greg Brown

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#429 Jason Flom with Greg Brown · Wrongful Conviction

0:02
Speaker 1: In the early morning hours of Valentine's Day in nineteen
0:04
Speaker 1: ninety five, the Pittsburgh Fire Department responded to a blaze
0:08
Speaker 1: on Briceland Street. Darlene Buckner and her teenage son, Greg
0:11
Speaker 1: Brown joined their safely evacuated family members as the raging
0:15
Speaker 1: inferno took the lives of three firefighters. Atf Investigators suspected arson,
0:21
Speaker 1: and a lab tech reported that two of the thirteen
0:23
Speaker 1: samples from the home were positive for gasoline. However, a
0:28
Speaker 1: gas powered mower stored in the basement may have been
0:31
Speaker 1: the source. Reward money brought forth two alleged witnesses to
0:35
Speaker 1: confirm what investigators had suspected. That Darlene Buckner and Greg
0:39
Speaker 1: Brown intentionally set the blaze to collect on the twenty
0:42
Speaker 1: thousand dollars insurance policy, a dollar amount that must have
0:46
Speaker 1: been incentive enough to destroy all their possessions and the
0:50
Speaker 1: lives of three brave firefighters. But this is wrongful conviction.
1:07
Speaker 1: Welcome back to wrongful conviction. I hate wrongful convictions. I
1:12
Speaker 1: hate every one of the cases that we've covered, and
1:15
Speaker 1: for different reasons. But there's a particular thing that keeps
1:20
Speaker 1: me up at night, which are cases like the one
1:24
Speaker 1: that we're going to talk about today, where someone was
1:28
Speaker 1: wrongfully convicted of a crime that never even happened. Today,
1:33
Speaker 1: we're going to be talking with Greg Brown, who served
1:36
Speaker 1: twenty years in Pennsylvania for an accidental fire with tragic fire. Nonetheless,
1:42
Speaker 1: three lives were lost, but there was a rush to judgment,
1:45
Speaker 1: there was junk science, there was all sorts of other
1:47
Speaker 1: things that you're going to hear about, and we've covered
1:50
Speaker 1: and our Junk Science podcast. But first I want to
1:53
Speaker 1: introduce Elizabeth Delosa from the Pennsylvania Innocence Project. Elizabeth, I'm
1:58
Speaker 1: so glad you're here to the show. Thank you for
2:01
Speaker 1: having me, and thank you for all the incredible work
2:03
Speaker 1: that you and the team there do. And of course
2:07
Speaker 1: now I get the privilege of interviewing man I first
2:11
Speaker 1: met in Phoenix at the Innocence Network conference Greg Brown. Greg,
2:15
Speaker 1: welcome to Wronful Conviction.
2:17
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.
2:18
Speaker 1: So let's go back to simpler times, before nineteen ninety
2:21
Speaker 1: five Valentine's Day, when this horrible event happened. What was
2:25
Speaker 1: it like did you grow up in Pittsburgh and what
2:27
Speaker 1: was your life like? Did you have brothers and sisters,
2:30
Speaker 1: did you have a happy childhood.
2:32
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I grew up in Pittsburgh.
2:34
Speaker 3: You know, my mom was a single mother until about
2:37
Speaker 3: the age of seven, and she met my stepfather. I
2:40
Speaker 3: have a stepsister that's two years older than me. Stepbrother
2:43
Speaker 3: is about four years older than me. So it was
2:45
Speaker 3: a nice blended family. And my mom didn't have another
2:48
Speaker 3: child until nineteen ninety three, so it was happy.
2:52
Speaker 2: Man.
2:52
Speaker 3: My stepdad was great, good father, figure, great provider, good guy,
2:58
Speaker 3: straight lace, everything by the book, you know, never break
3:02
Speaker 3: the law.
3:02
Speaker 2: It was good. We had a good upbringing.
3:05
Speaker 1: So you were a typical teenager, just seventeen years old
3:08
Speaker 1: when this tragic fire happened on the night of February
3:11
Speaker 1: thirteenth into the fourteenth of nineteen eighty five.
3:14
Speaker 3: The next day was obviously it was Valentine's Day, so
3:18
Speaker 3: I was excited when school was gonna have a dance,
3:21
Speaker 3: you know. So like that night, I was over my
3:23
Speaker 3: one of my older cousin's house, playing Matten like the
3:26
Speaker 3: kids do now on the Sega Genesis, and I'm my
3:28
Speaker 3: stepfather said go to the store with mom because it's
3:31
Speaker 3: dark out there or whatever. And my mom was cooking
3:34
Speaker 3: for a relative had died, so she was cooking for
3:37
Speaker 3: like a funeral of repass. And we went to John
3:40
Speaker 3: Nagles in one location on the east side and near
3:43
Speaker 3: our house, and it was closed, so we went to waterworks.
3:46
Speaker 3: So we come home on Frankstown Avenue. You could look
3:49
Speaker 3: over and see the houses and we seen fire trucks
3:53
Speaker 3: and like, man, Mom, I look like our house. And
3:56
Speaker 3: we pulled into the alleyway in between Franktown and Briceland,
3:59
Speaker 3: and we were anxious. We wanted to know if our
4:01
Speaker 3: family was out. And one of the firemen was on
4:04
Speaker 3: the back porst to yet her out there across the
4:06
Speaker 3: street at the neighbor's house, and and my mom was frantic.
4:09
Speaker 3: The fireman just wanted her to get to call out
4:12
Speaker 3: the alley ways, you know, because there's probably gonna be
4:14
Speaker 3: more fire trucks coming. And she had to drive around.
4:17
Speaker 3: You know, we seen our family. We just was the static,
4:21
Speaker 3: just happy that everybody was out. You know.
4:23
Speaker 2: Now was waiting game and you're hoping they put the
4:27
Speaker 2: fire out.
4:27
Speaker 3: As soon as possible and and maybe you could get
4:30
Speaker 3: whatever you can out of the house. And the more
4:33
Speaker 3: time it goes on, it's obvious that the house is
4:35
Speaker 3: going to get destroyed. And I went over to one
4:38
Speaker 3: of the firemen and they I said, as fire as over.
4:41
Speaker 3: They said, yeah, boy, we lost three of our guys.
4:43
Speaker 3: I'm like what, so, yeah, three firemen died. I'm like, man,
4:47
Speaker 3: you know, and then one of them said, like, I
4:49
Speaker 3: believe it was the furnace. I went back and tell
4:51
Speaker 3: my family, like, man, they said three firemen that, and
4:54
Speaker 3: my mom just just broke down, started crying and everybody
4:57
Speaker 3: we was just in shock.
4:59
Speaker 1: The city of Pittsburgh lost three courageous firefighters, Thomas Brooks,
5:04
Speaker 1: Patty Conroy, and Mark Kalenda. So rest in peace. I
5:09
Speaker 1: can't imagine how that news must have shaken their families
5:12
Speaker 1: and the entire community.
5:14
Speaker 3: No, this case in Pittsburgh was extremely it still is
5:19
Speaker 3: highly publicized, and there was no way for anyone to
5:22
Speaker 3: move on and including now anything Arson related to this day.
5:26
Speaker 3: A lot of times this case will come up with
5:28
Speaker 3: This case was always on the news, so.
5:31
Speaker 1: You can imagine the rush to judgment to figure out
5:35
Speaker 1: what went wrong here. And often when a death is
5:38
Speaker 1: hard to accept, like in the case of a child
5:41
Speaker 1: or baby, or men and women in uniform, we sometimes
5:45
Speaker 1: see that same urge to blame somebody, even when there's
5:50
Speaker 1: no one to blame.
5:51
Speaker 4: In investigating several arsen cases here in western Pennsylvania. I
5:56
Speaker 4: think one common denominator is a very quick rush to
6:02
Speaker 4: judgment and determining within hours that the fire is intentionally set,
6:09
Speaker 4: thereby being a crime being arson without having done the
6:15
Speaker 4: painstaking investigation that it takes in order to rule out
6:18
Speaker 4: all accidental causes. And Greg's case is no different. Nine
6:23
Speaker 4: one one calls first came in around twelve twenty am
6:29
Speaker 4: on the fourteenth, and by three am the Pittsburgh Fire
6:34
Speaker 4: Squad Pittsburgh Police knew that they had firefighter fatalities and
6:39
Speaker 4: called in the ATF in order to assist in the investigation,
6:44
Speaker 4: and within hours and upon visual inspection alone, it was
6:50
Speaker 4: determined that this fire had been intentionally set and that
6:54
Speaker 4: set those criminal investigation gears into motion, and then once
6:59
Speaker 4: they were started, it seems like there was no stopping them.
7:03
Speaker 1: So the visual inspection also known as the dunk science
7:06
Speaker 1: portion of the investigation, in which they used disproven fire
7:10
Speaker 1: investigation methods using terms like alligator burn patterns or crazed glass,
7:15
Speaker 1: et cetera. You can hear all about this, by the way,
7:18
Speaker 1: and I encourage you to check it out in our
7:20
Speaker 1: coverage of arson investigation on our series Junk Science, which
7:24
Speaker 1: will be linked in the episode description. So, in an
7:27
Speaker 1: effort to corroborate that assessment with actual science, they sent
7:30
Speaker 1: thirteen samples from the basement, which they believe was the
7:33
Speaker 1: fire's origin point. They sent those samples for testing, and
7:37
Speaker 1: eventually the lab tech said that two of the thirteen
7:40
Speaker 1: samples tested positive for gasoline. But there also appears to
7:43
Speaker 1: be a perfectly logical explanation for that.
7:46
Speaker 4: I want to just back up a little bit, because
7:49
Speaker 4: so you're right, thirteen samples are taken, and the ATF
7:53
Speaker 4: believes that a gallon of gasoline is poured onto a
7:59
Speaker 4: pile of laundry that is in the basement, and that
8:02
Speaker 4: is what the origin of the fire is. Right, So
8:05
Speaker 4: they during the fire suppression efforts, the basement is flooded.
8:09
Speaker 4: There's about a foot of water in the basement. And
8:12
Speaker 4: so when they're taking these thirteen samples, the concrete, some
8:15
Speaker 4: fabric samples, they're all wet, and the first samples are
8:20
Speaker 4: one through eleven. Those are the first samples that are
8:23
Speaker 4: sent to the ATF laboratory for chemical analysis. The first
8:27
Speaker 4: analysis by an ATF chemist named William Canard. He says
8:32
Speaker 4: negative for any traces of accelerant. That's his first report,
8:37
Speaker 4: and we know that through discovery and through some handwritten
8:41
Speaker 4: notes that William Canard said everything is negative. They then
8:45
Speaker 4: send two additional samples twelve and thirteen, and then somehow
8:50
Speaker 4: mister Caernard's original report is amended and he eventually says
8:55
Speaker 4: that Exhibit six and thirteen are positive for trace amounts
9:01
Speaker 4: of gasoline. And in his testimony he never reveals that
9:07
Speaker 4: his original analysis is exculpatory to greg and actually said
9:13
Speaker 4: that there was no trace amounts of any accelerate, including gasoline.
9:18
Speaker 4: And then another thing is there was a lawnmower in
9:21
Speaker 4: the basement right next to this alleged a pile of
9:24
Speaker 4: laundry with a gas can. That's where the family stored
9:28
Speaker 4: their lawnmower. And so if there were trace amounts of gasoline,
9:32
Speaker 4: which John Lentini completely refutes, having gone back and looked
9:36
Speaker 4: at those comratographs, then it would have had a logical explanation.
9:40
Speaker 1: And John Lentini is a legendary fire scientist, an actual
9:44
Speaker 1: scientist who started off as an arson investigator, and by
9:48
Speaker 1: the way, he was a true believer in the old
9:50
Speaker 1: way of thinking. But he's become such an asset for
9:54
Speaker 1: exposing this junk science for what it is junk, Unlike
9:58
Speaker 1: his counterpart here, William Kinn, the same quote unquote expert
10:02
Speaker 1: from Christine Bunch's case and so many others will have
10:06
Speaker 1: her story linked as well. So back to the immediate
10:09
Speaker 1: aftermath with this report from Canard, the investigators developed the
10:12
Speaker 1: theory that you and your mom plotted to burn down
10:16
Speaker 1: your own house, destroy all of your possessions, put your
10:20
Speaker 1: whole family in danger, grave danger, and then out on
10:23
Speaker 1: the street, including two toddlers no less, in the middle
10:28
Speaker 1: of a Pittsburgh winter. Right at all of this to
10:33
Speaker 1: collect on a twenty thousand dollars insurance policy, which I'm
10:37
Speaker 1: guessing wouldn't cover the replacement costs of what you lost.
10:41
Speaker 2: Even at a preliminary hearing.
10:43
Speaker 3: One of the investigators outright say that they're from Homewood,
10:46
Speaker 3: breustness is depressed. Are we don't believe they had over
10:49
Speaker 3: twenty thousand dollars worth of stuff in the house?
10:51
Speaker 1: So what are we supposed to believe that you had
10:53
Speaker 1: seventeen thousand, nine hundred and fifty dollars worth of stuff
10:56
Speaker 1: in there or something and that this was for two
10:58
Speaker 1: thousand dollars, this great scheme. I mean, come on, this
11:01
Speaker 1: is so it's so sick.
11:03
Speaker 3: And it's important. I know, me and my mother were
11:05
Speaker 3: black and the firemen were white. And I know for
11:09
Speaker 3: a fact there's been other cases in Pittsburgh Alleghany County
11:13
Speaker 3: alone where fire fighters have died and so caught that
11:16
Speaker 3: the suspects were white and they didn't charge them. So
11:20
Speaker 3: I definitely believe race played a major factor in it.
11:24
Speaker 3: You know, we're gonna get to the bottom and we'll
11:26
Speaker 3: get these guys, these this black family out of here.
11:29
Speaker 1: So you and your family were under investigation and out
11:31
Speaker 1: of a home. Where'd you go? Where did you live?
11:35
Speaker 2: Ironically?
11:36
Speaker 3: I moved up the street like two streets above from
11:39
Speaker 3: this house where you could look down with my father
11:42
Speaker 3: and my stepmother, And so I would walk past the house.
11:46
Speaker 3: They had the house just surrounded with agents. They had
11:50
Speaker 3: it there tight, they had it guarded like the White House,
11:53
Speaker 3: and it was on the news so much had me thinking, well,
11:56
Speaker 3: is anybody after me and my family? So you know,
11:59
Speaker 3: I'm like I need protection? Do I need to carry gun?
12:02
Speaker 3: I don't know what's going on.
12:04
Speaker 1: I mean with nightly media coverage. It's not crazy to
12:07
Speaker 1: think that a target had been painted on your back.
12:09
Speaker 1: But the investigation wasn't keeping up with the court of
12:11
Speaker 1: public opinion. There was a reasonable explanation for the alleged
12:15
Speaker 1: presence of gasoline and Canard's report, so they needed more
12:17
Speaker 1: to go on, and a year after the fire, the
12:21
Speaker 1: ATF started offering reward money fifteen thousand dollars for information.
12:26
Speaker 4: It was on the noon news, it was on the
12:28
Speaker 4: five o'clock news, and it was on the six o'clock news.
12:30
Speaker 4: This press conference issuing and publicizing this.
12:34
Speaker 1: Reward what it sounds like a good idea on paper,
12:36
Speaker 1: but it comes with the obvious pitfall of attracting false information,
12:39
Speaker 1: and sure enough, one of your neighbors, Keith Wright, took debate.
12:43
Speaker 4: Twelve minutes after the six o'clock news, Keith Wright walked
12:47
Speaker 4: down to his local fire department and made a statement
12:51
Speaker 4: a year after the fire, having never made a statement before,
12:54
Speaker 4: saying that he saw Greg standing outside of his family's
12:58
Speaker 4: home before fire park personnel got on scene. Very damaging
13:02
Speaker 4: to Greg, because, as you know, he and his mother
13:05
Speaker 4: have always said we arrived after fire personnel were on scene.
13:09
Speaker 4: We were at the Giant Eagle shopping and so that
13:12
Speaker 4: put a hole in Greg's alibi.
13:15
Speaker 1: But this hole in the alibi was not quite enough
13:17
Speaker 1: to get a warrant, so they kept going with this strategy.
13:21
Speaker 3: One of my friends told me that he say, man,
13:23
Speaker 3: you know, the ATF came visit me down South Carolina
13:27
Speaker 3: and they offered me four thousand and they said, just
13:30
Speaker 3: say that his mother made him do it foreign source money.
13:33
Speaker 2: And I was like what he said, yeah, man.
13:35
Speaker 1: So it appears that they didn't care if the information
13:38
Speaker 1: was false or not. But your friend from South Carolina,
13:42
Speaker 1: Raoul Gibson, stood strong. So the ATF found another taker,
13:47
Speaker 1: which came about when you had actually followed through on
13:51
Speaker 1: getting a gun.
13:52
Speaker 3: I did end up getting in trouble with a gun,
13:56
Speaker 3: you know, I had it for safety.
13:57
Speaker 4: The summer of nineteen ninety five, he got in trouble
14:01
Speaker 4: for the first time as a juvenile. And while you know,
14:04
Speaker 4: possession of a gun is a serious juvenile offence, it's
14:08
Speaker 4: the first time he's ever been in front of the
14:11
Speaker 4: juvenile court. And instead of probation or house arrest some
14:15
Speaker 4: type of like check in program, community based program, Greg
14:20
Speaker 4: is sent to Vision Quest in Franklin, Pennsylvania, which is
14:25
Speaker 4: like a wilderness slash boot camp program. So one of
14:29
Speaker 4: the Pittsburgh homicide detectives tells ATF, and then ATF immediately
14:34
Speaker 4: goes to the Vision Quest program and asks for all
14:38
Speaker 4: of Greg's bunkmates and starts to reach out to fifteen, sixteen,
14:44
Speaker 4: seventeen year olds and asking whether Greg has made any
14:49
Speaker 4: inculpatory statements or is as he mentioned this or confessed
14:53
Speaker 4: to anybody, and no one is making a statement, and
14:57
Speaker 4: so they start to reach out to probation off for
15:00
Speaker 4: each one of these kids, and the fifteen year old
15:04
Speaker 4: in particular that does eventually end up testifying against Greg.
15:07
Speaker 4: His probation officer is contacted upwards of twenty times each
15:12
Speaker 4: and every time money is brought up by the ATF
15:16
Speaker 4: and the fact that there is a reward in exchange
15:19
Speaker 4: for testimony implicating Greg, and finally they have a face
15:25
Speaker 4: to face with fifteen year old Ibrahim Abdullah, who only
15:30
Speaker 4: after he is told that there is a fifteen thousand
15:33
Speaker 4: dollars reward if he has information that would implicate Greg,
15:37
Speaker 4: does he make a statement. And the probation officer notes
15:41
Speaker 4: that he was really concerned about the statement particularly because
15:45
Speaker 4: it is yes and no answers to all leading questions.
15:49
Speaker 4: And so, did Greg Brown tell you something about this fire? Yes, sir?
15:54
Speaker 4: Did he tell you that he started the fire? Yes, sir.
15:56
Speaker 4: And so the fifteen year old's not offering any fact,
16:00
Speaker 4: any new facts, any corroborating facts. He's simply answering these
16:03
Speaker 4: very lading questions from the ATF.
16:05
Speaker 1: Nevertheless, this fifteen year old, Imbrahim Abdullah, gave them what
16:09
Speaker 1: they need to make arrests. You were charged with arson
16:12
Speaker 1: and murder, and your mother, Darlene Buckner, was charged with arson, murder,
16:16
Speaker 1: conspiracy and insurance fraud.
16:18
Speaker 3: I just thought I got arrested, and then I call
16:22
Speaker 3: home and my aunt answered the phone. She said they
16:25
Speaker 3: got your mom too. I said, what you already know?
16:28
Speaker 3: You didn't do anything. Now they're arresting your mother. Basically,
16:31
Speaker 3: they had a person saying I killed three firemen, but
16:35
Speaker 3: I'm bragging about it. You know, they want you to
16:37
Speaker 3: believe it. And I was bragging about it like it
16:39
Speaker 3: was a cool crime. I mean, name one rap song
16:42
Speaker 3: where rappers was bragging about setting fires, or a movie anything.
16:47
Speaker 3: That's not a cool crime. It's just crazy.
16:50
Speaker 5: Man.
17:05
Speaker 4: As he's preparing for testimony. Fifteen year old Ibrahim Abdullah
17:10
Speaker 4: starts to get cold feet, and he tells the ATF agent,
17:13
Speaker 4: I don't think I want to do this. I want
17:15
Speaker 4: to back out. I don't think I want to testify.
17:18
Speaker 4: And the ATF agent puts him in a room with
17:21
Speaker 4: the surviving members of the firefighters, who really, you know,
17:27
Speaker 4: impose upon him how important it is to them that
17:30
Speaker 4: justice be served and what a good thing he's doing.
17:34
Speaker 4: And so not only does this fifteen year old have
17:37
Speaker 4: the motivation of fifteen thousand dollars and what it could
17:40
Speaker 4: do for his family, and then he also has the
17:42
Speaker 4: pressure of the ATF and the hopes of the victim's
17:45
Speaker 4: families on him.
17:47
Speaker 1: So this kid, Ibrahim, his cold feet seem to have
17:50
Speaker 1: gotten nice and toasty all of a sudden.
17:52
Speaker 3: And we got to give this guys proper credit. Jason
17:55
Speaker 3: Wick from the ATF, and.
17:57
Speaker 4: He definitely was persistent, even when he was receiving no
18:02
Speaker 4: information from these children, he was not afraid to use
18:06
Speaker 4: that financial incentive to get the statement that he wanted.
18:10
Speaker 1: And I read that later on as a man, Ibraham
18:13
Speaker 1: admitted that it went even deeper than that for him
18:15
Speaker 1: with this ATF agent Jason Wick.
18:18
Speaker 2: Yeah.
18:18
Speaker 4: He later testifies that he was kind of smitten with
18:21
Speaker 4: the ATF agent. The ATF agent, you know, helped him
18:24
Speaker 4: with like court costs, helped him with some restitution in
18:27
Speaker 4: his other cases, helped him obtain his birth certificate, would
18:30
Speaker 4: take him on these rides in his car and would
18:33
Speaker 4: like speed, would swear, would tell him how powerful he
18:37
Speaker 4: is as an ATF agent. He said, you know, I
18:39
Speaker 4: thought this guy was cool. I thought he was really cool.
18:41
Speaker 1: So this kid Ibraham was charmed and incentivized, to say
18:44
Speaker 1: the least, as was the neighbor Keith, Right, and they
18:48
Speaker 1: came to testify against you and your mom, who were
18:51
Speaker 1: on trial together.
18:52
Speaker 2: Oo.
18:52
Speaker 1: It hurts my heart to even say that. And despite
18:55
Speaker 1: these press conferences, your attorney Al Lindsey was somehow unaware
18:59
Speaker 1: of the ward w money. Nevertheless, the jury nearly found
19:03
Speaker 1: out about this paid testimony scheme.
19:05
Speaker 4: Anyway, during trial, Greg told you about his friend from
19:09
Speaker 4: South Carolina named Raoul Gibson. Raoul Gibson testified at trial
19:15
Speaker 4: for the defense, saying ATF came to visit me in
19:18
Speaker 4: South Carolina and Agent Wick told me that if I
19:22
Speaker 4: gave an inculpatory statement against Greg I would be paid
19:25
Speaker 4: seven thousand dollars. And at trial, one of the prosecutors,
19:30
Speaker 4: the federal prosecutor who was cross examining him, said, Raoul,
19:34
Speaker 4: do you think that there's just some fun somewhere the
19:36
Speaker 4: agents can go and grab you seven thousand dollars? And Raoul,
19:41
Speaker 4: a kid at the time, was like, I don't know
19:43
Speaker 4: about that. And then in closing arguments, you know, prosecutors
19:47
Speaker 4: really made it seem like it was preposterous that they
19:50
Speaker 4: would be paying witnesses.
19:53
Speaker 1: Even though they most definitely were and had been saying
19:56
Speaker 1: so on the news. Yet Greg's attorney was so how unaware,
20:01
Speaker 1: But even so did he try to bring up what
20:03
Speaker 1: Raoul Gibson said. When cross examining Abraham Abdullah.
20:06
Speaker 4: They talked about what his motivation for testifying would be,
20:10
Speaker 4: and what he testified to was that he talked it
20:12
Speaker 4: over with his mom, and his mom said it was
20:14
Speaker 4: the right thing to do. For a defense attorney, you
20:17
Speaker 4: can't cross that, especially for a fifteen year old kid
20:20
Speaker 4: who you're very much trying to be able use kid
20:22
Speaker 4: gloves with and not look like a jerk in front
20:25
Speaker 4: of the jury. When fifteen year olds, as I talked
20:27
Speaker 4: to my mom as she said it was the right
20:29
Speaker 4: thing to do. There's nowhere to go from there.
20:31
Speaker 1: So the state successfully passed off these paid witnesses as
20:35
Speaker 1: concerned citizens, followed by this quote unquote Arson expert William Cannard,
20:39
Speaker 1: who unbeknownst to the jury, judge and defense, had changed
20:43
Speaker 1: his original report to reflect the presence of gasoline in
20:46
Speaker 1: two of thirteen samples. And even though you were contending
20:49
Speaker 1: with an outright lie, there was still the reasonable explanation
20:52
Speaker 1: of the gas powered lawn more stored in the basement.
20:54
Speaker 1: A defense expert could have and should have got a
20:57
Speaker 1: long way to combat this, had your offense attorney even bothered,
21:02
Speaker 1: but he didn't. Now, after seeing all this go down,
21:05
Speaker 1: did you still hold out hope that the jury would
21:07
Speaker 1: get it? Right?
21:08
Speaker 2: To be honest, part of me did.
21:10
Speaker 3: The bailiff grabs the verdict from the jury foreman and
21:14
Speaker 3: he hands it to the judge. The judge was he
21:17
Speaker 3: was definitely referreening for them the whole time, you know,
21:20
Speaker 3: every role.
21:20
Speaker 2: I mean, we didn't get any type of calls if
21:23
Speaker 2: this would be a game.
21:24
Speaker 3: And I seen the judge's face, he had a confused
21:28
Speaker 3: look on his face when he read the verdict to hisself,
21:31
Speaker 3: and his facial expression was like, what the hell is this?
21:34
Speaker 3: And I was like, maybe I got a chance. So
21:37
Speaker 3: he read my mother was getting acquitted of everything. I'm like,
21:42
Speaker 3: whoa did we do this? And then when they got
21:45
Speaker 3: to the very last charge on my mother, they found
21:48
Speaker 3: her guilty of insurance fraud. So I said, okay, now
21:52
Speaker 3: they're going to get me, and sure enough, they found
21:54
Speaker 3: me guilty on everything, except they acquitted us of conspiracy,
21:58
Speaker 3: which absolutely made no sense because if she's the mastermind
22:03
Speaker 3: and she made her son do it, that's obviously a conspiracy.
22:21
Speaker 3: I might have been up there a month and I
22:23
Speaker 3: called home one day and my uncle answered the phone
22:25
Speaker 3: and he said, you're going to court.
22:27
Speaker 2: Something involve a jury misconduct.
22:29
Speaker 3: You know, during the trial, they tell the dray don't
22:32
Speaker 3: talk to your family members, don't read any papers, don't
22:36
Speaker 3: listen to the news, don't discuss the case with anybody,
22:39
Speaker 3: don't visit the crime scene. So what had happened was
22:42
Speaker 3: a drawer had signed to Afford David after I got
22:45
Speaker 3: found guilty, and he was stating how one of the
22:50
Speaker 3: drawers had her daughter at the trial every day and
22:53
Speaker 3: was sitting with the fireman's family and she visited the
22:57
Speaker 3: crime scene.
22:58
Speaker 2: So I should have got a new trial based stoff
23:00
Speaker 2: of that, you know.
23:01
Speaker 3: But when I went to the hearing in front of
23:03
Speaker 3: Josh Coo, he said, well, it doesn't matter, it's that
23:07
Speaker 3: dream was shattered. So yeah, I'm just a kid, and
23:10
Speaker 3: I get sent to Greater for Prison, the biggest prison
23:13
Speaker 3: in the state at the time.
23:15
Speaker 2: Man. It was it was rough. It was rough in.
23:17
Speaker 3: There then, you know, And I pretty much depended on
23:20
Speaker 3: my lawyer, Lindsey, my trial lawyer, to get me out.
23:25
Speaker 1: And not too long after trial, mister Lindsey, while litigating
23:29
Speaker 1: that during misconduct issue and seeking a retrial, he discovered
23:32
Speaker 1: the paid witness scheme.
23:34
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it came to light during discovery for Greg's
23:38
Speaker 4: retrial that that reward was offered one year to the
23:43
Speaker 4: date of the fire. His attorney asks the court to
23:47
Speaker 4: reopen the evidence to tell the jury about the fact
23:50
Speaker 4: that this reward was offered and that it, you know,
23:54
Speaker 4: certainly could be known and expected by these two witnesses,
23:59
Speaker 4: and he's not allowed to do this, So the jury
24:01
Speaker 4: is never told that there is a fifteen thousand dollars reward.
24:05
Speaker 4: And then so Greg does his direct appeal. You know,
24:07
Speaker 4: here in Pennsylvania he does his federal habeas corpus, and
24:11
Speaker 4: each and every time members of the prosecution team say
24:16
Speaker 4: no witnesses were paid, there is no evidence that witnesses
24:21
Speaker 4: were paid.
24:22
Speaker 1: Even though Raoul Gibson had testified about being offered a
24:25
Speaker 1: reward at the original trial. So this issue became central
24:28
Speaker 1: to your post conviction efforts. But only after the journalism
24:31
Speaker 1: students at Point Park Universities, in this institute, under the
24:34
Speaker 1: guidance of Bill Mushy, they were able to develop the
24:38
Speaker 1: evidence to prove what had happened with these witnesses.
24:42
Speaker 3: They got in touch with Abraham Abdullah and he acknowledged
24:45
Speaker 3: that he got paid, and the neighbor, Keith Wright. You know,
24:49
Speaker 3: it's like the summer twenty ten, right after the two
24:53
Speaker 3: witnesses acknowledged that they did received some type of benefits.
24:57
Speaker 3: We had got in touch with jerro Hurst. It was
25:00
Speaker 3: a great Arson expert in Texas. He wrote back and
25:04
Speaker 3: agreed it didn't look like it was Arson to him.
25:07
Speaker 3: I got back in Corda on won my pill rights,
25:10
Speaker 3: and Judge Williams agreed to give me a hearing based
25:13
Speaker 3: off of I didn't have a proper expert witness at
25:16
Speaker 3: my trial. After that, mister Mushie said, I'm just a professor.
25:20
Speaker 3: He said, you're going to need representation. We're not lawyers,
25:23
Speaker 3: And it just so happened. Also in the summer of
25:25
Speaker 3: twenty ten, Did Temple started their Innocent Project and he
25:29
Speaker 3: got in touch with Marissa Bluestain.
25:31
Speaker 1: The Pennsylvania Insist Project picked up your case, and the
25:34
Speaker 1: lead up to this hearing in front of Judge Williams,
25:36
Speaker 1: while Bill Mushie's team continued to gather evidence.
25:39
Speaker 4: Bill Mushie and his students they did several for requests
25:43
Speaker 4: and one of the documents that they got from the
25:46
Speaker 4: ATF were these two redacted checks.
25:50
Speaker 3: The check for ten thousand, the check for five thousand,
25:52
Speaker 3: and it was blacked.
25:53
Speaker 4: Out, and so really all they could tell was that
25:55
Speaker 4: the ATF issued two checks, one for five thousand and
25:58
Speaker 4: one for ten thousand. They couldn't tell who they are
26:00
Speaker 4: gone to. And so they went back and they looked
26:02
Speaker 4: at all of the appellate history in Greg's case, and
26:08
Speaker 4: they were confused, right because prosecutors really made it seem
26:12
Speaker 4: like it was preposterous that they would be paying witnesses
26:18
Speaker 4: and So finally in twenty ten, when these redacted checks
26:23
Speaker 4: are obtained by the Innocence Institute and Point Park go
26:27
Speaker 4: back and they say to the Alleghany County District Attorney's office, Okay,
26:32
Speaker 4: if no witnesses were paid, what are these.
26:34
Speaker 3: When mister Mushie confronted them, David Hickden was in charge
26:37
Speaker 3: of the ATF at the time, he responded, Oh, well,
26:41
Speaker 3: they got paid, but they weren't expecting anything. We didn't
26:44
Speaker 3: make any promises beforehand. You know, we basically paid the
26:47
Speaker 3: malt de clear blue.
26:48
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's a good story. That's a I got
26:50
Speaker 1: a nice bridge outside of Pittsburgh, right, So that's great.
26:55
Speaker 4: And so Point Park investigators find Ibrahim Abdullah, who is now,
27:00
Speaker 4: you know, in his late twenties, and they asked him
27:03
Speaker 4: when were you paid and did you know you were
27:06
Speaker 4: going to be paid at the time of your testimony,
27:09
Speaker 4: and he very freely said yes, I was a fifteen
27:12
Speaker 4: year old kid. They offered me fifteen thousand dollars. It
27:15
Speaker 4: was more money than I had ever seen in my life,
27:17
Speaker 4: and it was highly motivating. I knew before trial, and
27:22
Speaker 4: actually I expected the fifteen thousand. I was disappointed to
27:27
Speaker 4: get only.
27:29
Speaker 1: Five, okay, So that solves the mystery of whose name
27:32
Speaker 1: was on each redacted check five thousand for Ibrahim and
27:36
Speaker 1: ten for Keith.
27:37
Speaker 4: Right point, Park was having a really difficult time locating
27:41
Speaker 4: Keith Wright, and so the Pennsylvania Innocence Project then got
27:44
Speaker 4: Dave Fawcett involved from Reid Smith, and Dave was actually
27:49
Speaker 4: able to locate Keith Wright. Mister Wright also said, yes,
27:54
Speaker 4: I absolutely knew about the reward. I knew about it
27:57
Speaker 4: before trial. Then we were able to bring in Keith Wright,
28:01
Speaker 4: bring in Ibrahim Abdullah at the post conviction hearing and
28:05
Speaker 4: testify about not only their knowledge prior to trial, but
28:08
Speaker 4: that promises were made to them. And then Ibrahim Abdullah,
28:11
Speaker 4: the fifteen year old kid at the time, further testified
28:15
Speaker 4: that Jason Wick told him prior to his testimony, They're
28:19
Speaker 4: going to ask you if I've promised you of anything,
28:22
Speaker 4: if there's any kind of incentive or reward, And I
28:25
Speaker 4: want to be very clear, I didn't promise you anything.
28:29
Speaker 4: Do you understand, right?
28:30
Speaker 1: So the prosecution is saying to this fifteen year old kid, Wow,
28:33
Speaker 1: we want you to lie, and we want to make
28:35
Speaker 1: sure wink wink, you're going to lie about the lie right,
28:39
Speaker 1: and there's.
28:40
Speaker 4: A failed threat of there's this money on the line, right,
28:43
Speaker 4: so lie well.
28:45
Speaker 1: So both paid witnesses exposed the scheme in front of
28:47
Speaker 1: Judge Williams in twenty twelve. And then the ATF agent
28:50
Speaker 1: Jason Wick, he was also at this hearing.
28:53
Speaker 3: He threatened Dave Fawcet in the hallway. He threatened Dave
28:57
Speaker 3: and said, YEA said, trying to ruin my fucking name,
29:00
Speaker 3: you know, excuse my language, just trying to ruin my name,
29:02
Speaker 3: you know. Dave said, he just threatened me in the
29:05
Speaker 3: hallway when he's on the stand like a perfect gentleman,
29:08
Speaker 3: you know. And of course he denied everything any witness
29:11
Speaker 3: anything or offering any anything.
29:14
Speaker 1: Dave Fawcett also presented a few other witnesses that lent
29:17
Speaker 1: credibility to Abdullah and writs recantations. So things must have
29:21
Speaker 1: been looking up.
29:22
Speaker 3: Dave said, man, I never seen nothing like this. He said,
29:25
Speaker 3: everything went perfect for us these three days, you know.
29:28
Speaker 3: And then I might have waited for my answers for
29:31
Speaker 3: two years, all right, And.
29:33
Speaker 4: Then January two twelve is a hearing, and then February
29:37
Speaker 4: twenty fourteen is the relief.
29:39
Speaker 3: Then twenty fourteen. I was in the courtroom and Jeorge
29:43
Speaker 3: Williams said, mister Brown, your attorneys made good points. The
29:47
Speaker 3: prosecutors made good points too, And my heart started beating.
29:50
Speaker 3: And but mister Brown, I believe your witnesses. You ask
29:53
Speaker 3: for a new trauma, get you a new trial. I
29:56
Speaker 3: couldn't hear nothing but my heart beating. And I just
29:59
Speaker 3: remember given my brother, my youngest brother, Deronte, because he
30:03
Speaker 3: was they both for babies, but he was a new
30:06
Speaker 3: born when all this happened, and I like gave him
30:08
Speaker 3: like a head, not man. That was the best day
30:10
Speaker 3: right there, well, second best day, because obviously the day
30:13
Speaker 3: I got out was the best day. And I stayed
30:16
Speaker 3: down there for two years, down the county, from twenty
30:18
Speaker 3: fourteen to twenty sixteen. I had a belt that was
30:21
Speaker 3: ridiculously high. The district attorney appealed immediately, and when they
30:25
Speaker 3: lost their last appeal, they tried to go back to
30:27
Speaker 3: the old playbook. Tried to get people that was on
30:30
Speaker 3: the pard with me to you know, jail house informants.
30:32
Speaker 3: They went to all my salemates through twenty years that
30:35
Speaker 3: they confined. Fortunately for me, those guys still firm. And
30:39
Speaker 3: then you know didn't allow on me.
30:41
Speaker 1: So they had one final play with the ATF in Bob.
30:44
Speaker 1: This case was always under joint federal and state jurisdiction,
30:47
Speaker 1: but with Judge Williams on this case, their options in
30:49
Speaker 1: state court were finally running out.
30:52
Speaker 4: And so this dual prosecution, this state and federal prosecution,
30:56
Speaker 4: once again got together and said, Okay, we don't want
30:59
Speaker 4: to go and to trial in front of Judge Williams.
31:02
Speaker 4: We can't get him to recuse, and so we'll drop
31:05
Speaker 4: state charges. We'll switch forums, and we'll take Greg up
31:10
Speaker 4: the street to the federal court. They asked to withdraw
31:13
Speaker 4: state charges. Judge Williams when he granted the nol Pross motion,
31:17
Speaker 4: the motion to withdraw, he did do it with prejudice,
31:20
Speaker 4: meaning that you know, if they lost in federal court,
31:23
Speaker 4: they couldn't come immediately back to state court and prosecute Greg.
31:26
Speaker 4: And then we got to federal court and argued for
31:29
Speaker 4: supervised release.
31:31
Speaker 3: I was released a week before Thanksgiving of twenty sixteen.
31:35
Speaker 3: It was bittersweet, man, because I was obviously happy to
31:38
Speaker 3: come home, but I had to live four or five
31:41
Speaker 3: years with this case hanging over my head.
31:43
Speaker 4: You know, the one thing that stands out obviously, like
31:45
Speaker 4: Greg walking out of the Allegheny County Jail. We're standing
31:50
Speaker 4: in the lobby. First thing he says to the journalists
31:53
Speaker 4: who are asking him questions is I want to thank
31:55
Speaker 4: the firefighters for saving my family. That's the first thing
31:59
Speaker 4: that's on his mind the moment he's walking out of
32:01
Speaker 4: being wrongly incarcerated for twenty years.
32:04
Speaker 1: That's beautiful.
32:05
Speaker 2: Greg.
32:07
Speaker 1: So now you're released, but still not totally free. You
32:13
Speaker 1: still had this case hanging over your head.
32:17
Speaker 3: I was pretty much free with deception of I couldn't
32:20
Speaker 3: leave Western Pennsylvania or out the state without permission. So
32:24
Speaker 3: it was basically like me getting his charge from the beginning,
32:27
Speaker 3: but making bond.
32:29
Speaker 1: And this dragged out for about six long years, right,
32:32
Speaker 1: and this time you did not have Judge Williams.
32:34
Speaker 4: The players on this case in nineteen ninety seven are
32:38
Speaker 4: Prosecutor Mark Clark, Assistant United States Attorney Sean Sweeney, Judge
32:43
Speaker 4: Sir Cone presiding over the case. When we get to
32:46
Speaker 4: the federal court, we have Sewn Sweeney, United States Attorney.
32:51
Speaker 4: He's going to prosecute the case federally. We're initially assigned
32:56
Speaker 4: to Judge Schwab here in the Western District, who recuses
32:59
Speaker 4: himself and who is the case assigned to but Judge
33:02
Speaker 4: Sharkone who has been appointed to the federal bench. And
33:07
Speaker 4: so once again we have a state federal team and
33:10
Speaker 4: the exact same players as twenty two years ago.
33:14
Speaker 1: Who all have a professional interest in maintaining this conviction.
33:17
Speaker 1: So how did it finally get resolved?
33:19
Speaker 2: I had a meeting with my attorneys.
33:21
Speaker 3: They said, the government is offering the alpha plea right,
33:24
Speaker 3: and my thing was, I'm never going to admit to
33:27
Speaker 3: something I didn't do. And they said, well, this is
33:30
Speaker 3: unique saying the case will be over and you're pleading
33:33
Speaker 3: guilty while maintaining your innocence at the same time.
33:37
Speaker 4: That was a hard decision. I remember we presented this
33:40
Speaker 4: to Greg. We're all sitting at reed Smith. It's still
33:43
Speaker 4: during COVID, so we're sitting out on an outdoor patio.
33:46
Speaker 4: That's what I don't know, Greg thirteen stories above.
33:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, live.
33:51
Speaker 4: Greg is afraid of heights, so he's skirting across like
33:54
Speaker 4: the wall trying to get to his seat. And Yeah,
33:57
Speaker 4: we just had like a very kind of conversation about
34:00
Speaker 4: like if we go back to trial, we have Judge Starkne,
34:04
Speaker 4: we have Sean Tweeney, we have the exact same players.
34:07
Speaker 4: None of us can labor under any illusions that you
34:10
Speaker 4: could not be wrongfully convicted. Again, we have seen it happen.
34:14
Speaker 4: We have seen it happen with these exact people.
34:16
Speaker 3: It was hard for me, man, It was very hard
34:18
Speaker 3: for me. And that's what we end up doing in
34:21
Speaker 3: June of twenty twenty two. To this day, Man, it
34:25
Speaker 3: bothers me. What I mean, I don't know, it's over.
34:28
Speaker 3: I'm glad it's over with. And like Liz told me,
34:31
Speaker 3: she's like, look, there's no restrictions. You'll be able to
34:34
Speaker 3: tell your story. And then Dave said, like, if we
34:38
Speaker 3: do fight it and get it, quit it, there's no
34:40
Speaker 3: guaranteed that I will get compensated.
34:43
Speaker 2: So it was tough, man, It's still tough.
34:46
Speaker 1: Man.
34:46
Speaker 2: It definitely bothers me.
34:48
Speaker 1: Right, even though you had amassed all of this evidence
34:51
Speaker 1: and served all of that time, plus the Great John
34:55
Speaker 1: Lintini was prepared to testify about Canard's false report actually
34:59
Speaker 1: showing no presence at all of gasoline on any of
35:03
Speaker 1: the samples, and that this was actually not an arson
35:06
Speaker 1: case at all. Still, there was no guarantee that you
35:11
Speaker 1: get an acquittal, and even if you manage that, there
35:14
Speaker 1: was no guarantee the compensation would be forthcoming.
35:17
Speaker 4: The most accountability that we can have is telling you,
35:20
Speaker 4: telling you, telling your listeners what happened to Greg.
35:23
Speaker 1: And we're very honored to have you. So is there
35:25
Speaker 1: anything at all you'd like to ask of our audience,
35:28
Speaker 1: anything they can do.
35:29
Speaker 3: I just want to say, I got a book coming
35:31
Speaker 3: out to Greg Brown Story Volume one.
35:34
Speaker 2: I almost done with it.
35:36
Speaker 3: I just want to ask the audience. Man, you know,
35:39
Speaker 3: she's a little bit of common sense. You just can't
35:42
Speaker 3: take everything they say is go. You can't be that
35:45
Speaker 3: naive when someone's life is in your hands.
35:48
Speaker 1: Amen, And we'll keep our ears to the ground about
35:50
Speaker 1: your book, as well as link the Pennsylvania Innis's project
35:53
Speaker 1: in the episode description so people can show some support.
35:56
Speaker 1: Without them and other organizations like them, folks like Greg
35:59
Speaker 1: would have even harder. And with that, let's go to
36:03
Speaker 1: my favorite part of the show. Closing arguments, of course,
36:06
Speaker 1: is a part of the show where I have the
36:08
Speaker 1: honor of thanking each of you. And now I'm just
36:11
Speaker 1: going to kick back in my chair, turn my microphone off,
36:15
Speaker 1: close my eyes, and leave my headphones on and then Liz,
36:18
Speaker 1: you have the microphone to say whatever has been left unsaid,
36:23
Speaker 1: and then just hand it off to Greg.
36:25
Speaker 4: So, you know, experts theorize that anywhere from three to
36:28
Speaker 4: ten percent of all people convicted in the United States
36:31
Speaker 4: annually are actually innocent. I think that's probably very conservative.
36:36
Speaker 4: But even if we are very conservative and say that
36:39
Speaker 4: it's only one percent, that's like more than ten thousand
36:43
Speaker 4: people a year who are convicted of a crime that
36:45
Speaker 4: they didn't commit. Innocence organizations like mine are underfunded, we're understaffed,
36:51
Speaker 4: we're very small nonprofit organizations, and so it takes us
36:56
Speaker 4: years to investigate and then to litigate a wrongful conviction.
37:00
Speaker 4: And so when you do see that exoneration in the news,
37:03
Speaker 4: it's wonderful. It's a wonderful day. It has been years
37:06
Speaker 4: in the making. If we can prevent wrongful convictions from happening,
37:10
Speaker 4: if we can be better jurors, better prosecutors, better defense attorneys,
37:14
Speaker 4: better judges, then we won't cost people and their families'
37:19
Speaker 4: literal decades of their life in prison. And so be skeptical,
37:24
Speaker 4: Be healthily skeptical of what you're hearing, and don't just take.
37:29
Speaker 4: You know someone who is very confident and also can
37:32
Speaker 4: be very wrong.
37:33
Speaker 2: Word for it. Yeah, that family members, neighbors.
37:37
Speaker 3: You know, everyone needs to hear these type of stories
37:39
Speaker 3: because you know everyone might not listen to this, so
37:43
Speaker 3: no one wants to get involved or care until it's
37:46
Speaker 3: their cousin, their son, or brother, their nephew.
37:49
Speaker 2: You have to pay attention.
37:50
Speaker 3: Beforehand because you have a responsibility because if you're not
37:55
Speaker 3: helping out beforehand and it's too late, and then when
37:58
Speaker 3: it's your loved one, they get charged and then you're crying.
38:01
Speaker 2: You should have did something about it. You know, you
38:04
Speaker 2: see a face on TV or in the papers. It's
38:07
Speaker 2: kind of hard. You know, the average person that never
38:10
Speaker 2: had a loved one to.
38:11
Speaker 3: Deal with this, or a friend. Ay, he's guilty, look
38:14
Speaker 3: what he did? You know, don't You shouldn't judge because
38:17
Speaker 3: you never know when it would be you and you
38:19
Speaker 3: found me out the front row begging and pleading these judges.
38:22
Speaker 3: When you get to the point where you need an
38:25
Speaker 3: edison project, it's bad anyway because that means obviously it
38:29
Speaker 3: didn't work out at court. So people just need to
38:32
Speaker 3: just hear these type of stories as much as possible.
38:35
Speaker 3: The last thing I want to say, my God extremely
38:37
Speaker 3: blessed and lucky at the same time. Things just came
38:41
Speaker 3: together for me the right time. I just to still
38:44
Speaker 3: be in there trying to reach out to different organizations.
38:47
Speaker 3: You know, it's messed up what happened to me, but
38:50
Speaker 3: I wouldn't want another kid to go through this or
38:53
Speaker 3: no other family.
38:54
Speaker 1: So that said, thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction.
39:06
Speaker 1: You can listen to this and all the Lava for
39:08
Speaker 1: Good podcasts one week early by subscribing to Lava for
39:11
Speaker 1: Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our
39:14
Speaker 1: production team, Connor Hall and Kathleen Fink, as well as
39:17
Speaker 1: my fellow executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis, and Jeff Clyburn.
39:21
Speaker 1: The music in this production was supplied by three time
39:23
Speaker 1: OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us
39:27
Speaker 1: across all social media platforms at Lava for Good and
39:30
Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on Instagram
39:33
Speaker 1: at It's Jason Flamm. Wrongful Conviction is a production of
39:36
Speaker 1: Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number
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Speaker 1: one