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A Prescription for Better Politics · Politics Between Us

0:04
SPEAKER_02: It is easy to feel like political conversations have completely broken down.
0:08
SPEAKER_02: Everything feels urgent and binary and really loud, but I do not think it has to be that way.
0:13
SPEAKER_02: Politics gets a lot more interesting and a lot less toxic when we actually listen to each other.
0:18
SPEAKER_02: Hold space for different points of view,
0:20
SPEAKER_02: and if possible, stay in relationship through the hard stuff.
0:23
SPEAKER_02: I'm Alison Bea, and for the last 25 years, I've worked in law and politics in Maine.
0:28
SPEAKER_01: And I'm Luca DeAngelis.
0:30
SPEAKER_01: I'm in my 20s.
0:31
SPEAKER_01: I live in New York City, but I was raised in Maine.
0:34
SPEAKER_01: And to be honest, a lot of the time, I feel pretty disillusioned with politics myself.
0:38
SPEAKER_01: But Alison is the person who I keep talking to anyways.
0:42
SPEAKER_01: We have been having these messy,
0:43
SPEAKER_01: honest conversations for the last decade,
0:46
SPEAKER_01: ever since I was an intern for her at the ACLU of Maine.
0:50
SPEAKER_01: So this is Politics Between Us,
0:51
SPEAKER_01: where we see what happens when we approach politics with Curiosity instead
0:57
SPEAKER_01: of certainty.
0:59
SPEAKER_01: Hello, everyone.
1:00
SPEAKER_01: Hi, Allison.
1:01
SPEAKER_01: It's great to be back with you.
1:03
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to episode four of season three or season two.
1:07
SPEAKER_01: Sorry.
1:08
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
1:09
SPEAKER_02: That's where we are.
1:10
SPEAKER_02: We're like, what year are we in?
1:11
SPEAKER_02: What month are we in?
1:12
SPEAKER_02: I totally feel that, Luca.
1:15
SPEAKER_02: I'm super excited.
1:16
SPEAKER_02: As you can tell, I'm pretty revved and excited for this conversation.
1:20
SPEAKER_02: Today, we are welcoming Dr. Neera Shah.
1:23
SPEAKER_02: Now, most Mainers probably first got to know Dr.
1:25
SPEAKER_02: Shah during the COVID pandemic when he was leading the Maine CDC.
1:29
SPEAKER_02: And for many of us,
1:30
SPEAKER_02: he was like the most familiar presence in our lives because every day,
1:35
SPEAKER_02: every single day, he would give it a press briefing.
1:37
SPEAKER_02: And it was such a time of uncertainty and fear and So much new and like just
1:44
SPEAKER_02: when we talk about energy, like the energy around the world was just so heightened.
1:48
SPEAKER_02: And he developed such a reputation for being calm and clear,
1:52
SPEAKER_02: like not the things you think of with me, Luca,
1:55
SPEAKER_02: but calm and clear and remarkably good
1:58
SPEAKER_02: at explaining complicated public health decisions to all of us who are just trying
2:03
SPEAKER_02: to make sense of this unprecedented moment.
2:06
SPEAKER_01: I remember watching those briefings from Bowdoin, where I was in my final semester.
2:15
SPEAKER_01: Generally,
2:15
SPEAKER_01: what's fascinating is how much Dr.
2:17
SPEAKER_01: Shah's career has revolved around questions about trust.
2:21
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's one of the reasons we wanted to talk about,
2:23
SPEAKER_01: talk with him so much is,
2:24
SPEAKER_01: you know,
2:24
SPEAKER_01: during COVID,
2:25
SPEAKER_01: he was making these big decisions with incomplete information,
2:28
SPEAKER_01: trying to communicate uncertainty to the public and asking people to really believe
2:34
SPEAKER_01: in institutions at a time when trust
2:36
SPEAKER_01: in institutions seemed increasingly like fragile.
2:41
SPEAKER_01: But then Dr. Shah ended up coming back to Maine and After he left.
2:47
SPEAKER_01: So he left Maine to serve in senior leadership at the US Center for Disease Control
2:52
SPEAKER_01: and Prevention.
2:54
SPEAKER_01: And he ended up coming back to Maine to Make the decision,
2:57
SPEAKER_01: the jump into electoral politics,
2:59
SPEAKER_01: running for governor in a crowded Democratic primary.
3:03
SPEAKER_01: He ended up winning the most first choice votes in that primary,
3:07
SPEAKER_01: but ultimately lost to Hannah Pingree in ranked choice voting.
3:13
SPEAKER_01: So a really interesting career arc since the COVID pandemic when he kind of rose
3:17
SPEAKER_01: to notoriety in Maine.
3:19
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
3:20
SPEAKER_02: And I think this is all what makes him such an interesting guest for us.
3:25
SPEAKER_02: We talk a lot about political disagreement,
3:27
SPEAKER_02: and here he had to first navigate political disagreement as
3:30
SPEAKER_02: a public health official,
3:31
SPEAKER_02: and then he jumped into politics where he has to go through a very different kind
3:34
SPEAKER_02: of disagreement as a candidate.
3:35
SPEAKER_02: So I'm really interested to see what those experiences taught him
3:39
SPEAKER_02: about how do we actually listen to people,
3:41
SPEAKER_02: all the things we say we want people to do,
3:42
SPEAKER_02: listen to people, build trust, and also what's ultimately the limits of persuasion?
3:48
SPEAKER_02: I'm really curious what he thinks about that.
3:50
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
3:51
SPEAKER_01: Well, let's bring him in here and talk about all those things.
3:55
SPEAKER_01: Dr. Shah, welcome to Politics Between Us.
3:57
SPEAKER_01: It's so good to have you here.
3:58
SPEAKER_01: Hi, everyone.
3:59
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
3:59
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
4:00
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
4:03
SPEAKER_01: It is awesome to have you here.
4:05
SPEAKER_01: And let's just start at the beginning.
4:07
SPEAKER_01: You've been in and around government and government service most of your career.
4:11
SPEAKER_01: But what is your first political memory?
4:15
SPEAKER_03: I'd say my first political memory was going back to the 80s when Reagan
4:21
SPEAKER_03: and Mondale were dueling with each other.
4:23
SPEAKER_03: And I recall in that election,
4:27
SPEAKER_03: one of the debates and being fascinated by the idea that two people would be asked,
4:34
SPEAKER_03: if not forced, to come up on stage and defend what they actually thought.
4:38
SPEAKER_03: Thought about a variety of issues.
4:41
SPEAKER_03: That to me was a very fascinating idea.
4:44
SPEAKER_03: And that not only was one of my first political memories of watching
4:49
SPEAKER_03: and understanding those debates,
4:50
SPEAKER_03: although I didn't understand the nuances by any stretch,
4:53
SPEAKER_03: I understood that what they were doing was squaring off against one another as a way
4:58
SPEAKER_03: to demonstrate their depth of understanding.
5:01
SPEAKER_03: So not only was that one of my first political memories,
5:03
SPEAKER_03: it was also one of my first exposures to this idea that There is a thing out there
5:09
SPEAKER_03: that is called persuasion, and it is a thing that can be learned.
5:14
SPEAKER_03: And that is probably where I also started my interest in rhetoric,
5:18
SPEAKER_03: public speaking, persuasion, things of that nature.
5:21
SPEAKER_02: When we were getting ready for this interview,
5:22
SPEAKER_02: went back and watched your very first press briefing.
5:26
SPEAKER_02: And I just, indulge us.
5:28
SPEAKER_02: I want to play that for you for a second.
5:30
SPEAKER_02: Luca's going to tee it up.
5:30
SPEAKER_03: This will be a blast from the past.
5:32
SPEAKER_03: I've never watched this.
5:33
SPEAKER_01: Very first press briefing during COVID in Maine.
5:36
[music]
5:46
SPEAKER_03: Good morning, everyone.
5:49
SPEAKER_03: My name is Dr. Nirav Shah.
5:51
SPEAKER_03: I am the director of the State of Maine Center for Disease Control and Prevention,
5:56
SPEAKER_03: an agency within the Department of Health and Human Services.
5:59
SPEAKER_03: I'd like to provide an update on the number of cases of COVID-19
6:04
SPEAKER_03: before handing things over to Governor Mills.
6:07
SPEAKER_03: As of this morning,
6:08
SPEAKER_03: the Maine CDC is reporting a total of 42 cases of COVID-19 across the state.
6:16
SPEAKER_03: That includes an increase in 14 cases since yesterday.
6:22
SPEAKER_03: All told,
6:23
SPEAKER_03: of those 42 cases,
6:26
SPEAKER_03: 30 are positive and have been confirmed by our state laboratory here
6:30
SPEAKER_03: in Augusta
6:32
SPEAKER_02: First of all,
6:33
SPEAKER_02: just wild, right,
6:34
SPEAKER_02: to hear the number of cases that you were reporting,
6:36
SPEAKER_02: right, to think where we were going to go.
6:39
SPEAKER_02: I want to know, what were you thinking?
6:41
SPEAKER_02: What were you feeling?
6:41
SPEAKER_02: Had you even slept?
6:42
SPEAKER_02: I mean, what was this like?
6:44
SPEAKER_02: You were just walking out there.
6:47
SPEAKER_03: You know, it's interesting, Allison.
6:48
SPEAKER_03: I don't remember –
6:52
SPEAKER_03: Is the first and most important thing.
6:55
SPEAKER_03: It was also interesting watching that because I generally don't watch myself
7:01
SPEAKER_03: or listen to myself, much to the consternation of my communications colleagues.
7:06
SPEAKER_03: So that is the first time I've ever watched that.
7:11
SPEAKER_03: And so that's interesting.
7:14
SPEAKER_03: I also, just as one other observation,
7:16
SPEAKER_03: I'm a little upset with myself because For introducing myself as doctor
7:23
SPEAKER_03: because I hope I stopped that.
7:25
SPEAKER_03: Now I have to watch the second one because I went to great pains not to refer
7:30
SPEAKER_03: to myself as doctor because even though I went to medical school,
7:33
SPEAKER_03: I never did a residency and so never really considered myself a doctor.
7:37
SPEAKER_03: All of that is to say to your question about what that was like.
7:43
SPEAKER_03: You saw Governor Mills and Commissioner Lambrew there as well.
7:46
SPEAKER_03: And the three of us,
7:48
SPEAKER_03: plus the hundreds of other people that were working on this,
7:51
SPEAKER_03: had been preparing for that moment for many, many weeks.
7:57
SPEAKER_03: Ever since COVID first emerged in China,
8:02
SPEAKER_03: it was my view that it was only a matter of time before it found its way here.
8:06
SPEAKER_03: And indeed, sure enough, about three months later, it found its way here to Maine.
8:12
SPEAKER_03: And so we had been preparing for that moment, that press briefing.
8:17
SPEAKER_03: And Alison,
8:18
SPEAKER_03: we prepared for it in the very same way that I prepared with my epidemiology
8:24
SPEAKER_03: and medical team for the first case,
8:26
SPEAKER_03: in the same way I prepared with my laboratory team,
8:29
SPEAKER_03: For the first lab sample,
8:31
SPEAKER_03: the same way I prepared with my emergency management team for the first deliveries
8:35
SPEAKER_03: of PPE.
8:36
SPEAKER_03: We underwent the very same type of preparation for that same press briefing.
8:41
SPEAKER_03: A theme that you'll hear me talk about is that that skill is just as learnable
8:47
SPEAKER_03: and preparable as any other thing in crisis management.
8:50
SPEAKER_03: So for me, it was...
8:53
SPEAKER_03: The product of having sat down with my former communications director,
8:58
SPEAKER_03: a gentleman named Robert Long,
9:00
SPEAKER_03: for many,
9:01
SPEAKER_03: many hours,
9:02
SPEAKER_03: thinking through and rehearsing what our key messages were going to be in
9:08
SPEAKER_03: that moment.
9:10
SPEAKER_03: And how we were going to convey a sense of calm,
9:14
SPEAKER_03: a sense of control, a sense of action, equipping people for what they could do.
9:19
SPEAKER_03: And so every single word,
9:22
SPEAKER_03: every single structure,
9:23
SPEAKER_03: every single idea in there is something that we went through.
9:27
SPEAKER_03: And it's all designed to further one or two or three communication objectives.
9:34
SPEAKER_02: Well, it's interesting.
9:35
SPEAKER_02: So we talk a lot about the emotions of politics,
9:38
SPEAKER_02: Luca and I, that's like, what is underlying feeling?
9:41
SPEAKER_02: And so I'm interested, I mean, you're describing I'm curious, because our bodies are built.
9:48
SPEAKER_02: If we're in a crisis, what do we get?
9:49
SPEAKER_02: We get adrenaline.
9:51
SPEAKER_02: Our neurological system programs us to actually run from the tiger.
9:54
SPEAKER_02: But what you're talking about is that,
9:57
SPEAKER_02: so was your body running from the tiger and your brain was doing something else?
10:00
SPEAKER_02: Or had you done enough work that you could stay grounded
10:04
SPEAKER_02: that you were actually telling yourself it was safe and you were there
10:07
SPEAKER_02: to offer information and to soothe and to calm yourself?
10:11
SPEAKER_03: I would say I was 90% trying to stay calm on the inside and 10% losing my mind.
10:22
SPEAKER_03: The metaphor that is used in these situations is to be like a duck.
10:28
SPEAKER_03: That is to say, calm above the water and flailing wildly below the water.
10:37
SPEAKER_03: But you are absolutely correct, though.
10:39
SPEAKER_03: In moments of crisis, anxiety is high, trust is low.
10:44
SPEAKER_03: And if the person giving information is themselves flustered and Unclear about what
10:50
SPEAKER_03: the objectives are,
10:53
SPEAKER_03: confused or confusing,
10:55
SPEAKER_03: that further inflames the anxiety and diminishes trust even more.
11:01
SPEAKER_03: Allison, you talked about the emotional piece.
11:06
SPEAKER_03: It's important to distinguish for me in moments of this nature, it is not my goal to be robotic.
11:13
SPEAKER_03: My goal is to be calm.
11:15
SPEAKER_03: I don't want to be emotionless.
11:17
SPEAKER_03: I want to be emotional and recognize that level of anxiety out there
11:21
SPEAKER_03: and not be robotic because that's just as bad.
11:27
SPEAKER_03: So it's about striking the balance between being emotive and recognizing
11:33
SPEAKER_03: the anxiety that's out there and also not being hysterical about it.
11:39
SPEAKER_02: I want to go to a similar topic, but I was actually on a call with you during this.
11:43
SPEAKER_02: I don't know that we didn't know each other back then when I was at the ACLU of Maine.
11:46
SPEAKER_02: And that was from people who were very much supporting the restrictions,
11:51
SPEAKER_02: but we had other concerns.
11:52
SPEAKER_02: I'm pretty sure we weren't really happy with you.
11:54
SPEAKER_02: I'm pretty sure we were upset about something.
11:56
SPEAKER_02: Probably.
11:57
SPEAKER_02: Probably.
11:57
SPEAKER_02: Most everyone was.
11:59
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
11:59
SPEAKER_02: So how did you manage that?
12:02
SPEAKER_02: How did you manage having people,
12:03
SPEAKER_02: you know, either you weren't doing enough or you're doing too much?
12:06
SPEAKER_02: Like what happens to you in your body?
12:08
SPEAKER_02: Is that something you also learned how to do and hold and be able to respond to?
12:13
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
12:13
SPEAKER_03: I mean, first, you're absolutely right, Alison.
12:15
SPEAKER_03: Part of, again, part of modern day crisis response is that everyone is generally upset.
12:22
SPEAKER_03: And as it relates to large scale disasters,
12:25
SPEAKER_03: almost exactly 50% of people think you're doing That
12:33
SPEAKER_03: was particularly pronounced
12:35
SPEAKER_03: during COVID,
12:36
SPEAKER_03: but it's been a feature of the hundreds,
12:39
SPEAKER_03: thousands of outbreaks and public health crises that I've managed in my career.
12:43
SPEAKER_03: And that's just a fixture.
12:45
SPEAKER_03: It's just how it is, especially nowadays.
12:48
SPEAKER_03: On a personal level, just to be totally honest with you, it didn't really bother me that much.
12:56
SPEAKER_03: Not to be self-referential,
12:59
SPEAKER_03: but I knew what we were doing was supported by the best available data.
13:05
SPEAKER_03: That is different from saying that I knew that everything we were doing was right.
13:09
SPEAKER_03: You can never really truly know that in the moment.
13:12
SPEAKER_03: But I knew that every single thing we were doing was supported by
13:15
SPEAKER_03: the best available data that we had.
13:18
SPEAKER_03: And then to a point Luca made earlier,
13:20
SPEAKER_03: Another feature that you just have to be comfortable with as a leader,
13:24
SPEAKER_03: whether you're a CEO or any kind of leader,
13:28
SPEAKER_03: is you will never ever have all of the information you need in order to make
13:33
SPEAKER_03: a decision.
13:35
SPEAKER_03: Bad leaders often are those,
13:37
SPEAKER_03: there are many ways in which people can be bad leaders,
13:40
SPEAKER_03: but one of the most nefarious are leaders who delay tough decisions on the theory
13:46
SPEAKER_03: that they need more information.
13:49
SPEAKER_03: In a crisis, that can be a deadly thing to do.
13:52
SPEAKER_03: I took solace in the fact that even when we had incomplete information,
13:55
SPEAKER_03: which was most of the time,
13:58
SPEAKER_03: We were doing,
13:59
SPEAKER_03: we were making decisions based on best of what we had with the intention of trying
14:03
SPEAKER_03: to save as many people as possible.
14:05
SPEAKER_03: Are there going to be people who are upset by that?
14:08
SPEAKER_03: Of course, that is a, that again, that is a constant, especially being a leader in government.
14:15
SPEAKER_03: But I do take some solace from Roosevelt's famous quip about those who are in the arena.
14:23
SPEAKER_03: Criticism is easy.
14:26
SPEAKER_03: Making tough decisions, balancing all of these competing interests is a thing unto itself.
14:32
SPEAKER_03: And I was fortunate to have a team with me across state government in Maine
14:37
SPEAKER_03: that was all committed to this idea that we were going to do the best we could,
14:42
SPEAKER_03: especially even if the information wasn't complete.
14:45
SPEAKER_03: Were people going to be upset about that?
14:47
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
14:48
SPEAKER_03: Was not going to deter us every single day from waking up and doing the best that we could.
14:54
SPEAKER_02: Well, now it makes total sense why you decided to run for political office,
14:57
SPEAKER_02: because you basically described exactly the same situation
14:59
SPEAKER_02: where no matter what you do,
15:00
SPEAKER_02: you're going to have half the people think you're doing too much
15:02
SPEAKER_02: or not doing enough.
15:03
SPEAKER_03: It's exactly right.
15:04
SPEAKER_03: In fact,
15:05
SPEAKER_03: I would strengthen that even further and say, I mean,
15:09
SPEAKER_03: any political leader,
15:11
SPEAKER_03: any leader, period,
15:12
SPEAKER_03: who's premising their decisions based on just what the majority wants is probably...
15:18
SPEAKER_03: Probably a leader that's not making great decisions.
15:22
SPEAKER_03: They are putting short-termism over long-term decision or prosperity, things of that nature.
15:27
SPEAKER_03: And so those very,
15:29
SPEAKER_03: very same trade-offs of sometimes displeasing people,
15:33
SPEAKER_03: things of that nature,
15:34
SPEAKER_03: that's just the nature of modern leadership, particularly modern governance.
15:39
SPEAKER_03: To put a finer point on that, Alison, one of the questions that I often ask folks in the
15:47
SPEAKER_03: What are you willing to say no to your friends on?
15:53
SPEAKER_03: And leaders who say, oh, I'm always going to side with my friends.
15:57
SPEAKER_03: That's not a good thing, right?
15:59
SPEAKER_03: Your job as a leader,
16:01
SPEAKER_03: especially in government where you're allocating scarce resources,
16:04
SPEAKER_03: is to say no to people.
16:06
SPEAKER_03: And if you're not doing that, then you're not doing your job.
16:09
SPEAKER_02: We had a very strong Democratic primary with lots of candidates
16:12
SPEAKER_02: who had really driven by a lot of Some same, some different policy matters.
16:18
SPEAKER_02: But I want to ask you,
16:19
SPEAKER_02: so after years of being in politics and serving different political leaders,
16:23
SPEAKER_02: different governors, you essentially became the product.
16:27
SPEAKER_02: You were the product.
16:28
SPEAKER_02: You were the politician.
16:29
SPEAKER_02: So what was that like to become actually the one, the candidate?
16:33
SPEAKER_02: And I always think for politics,
16:34
SPEAKER_02: that's what people don't appreciate, how tricky it is to actually be the thing.
16:39
SPEAKER_02: Be the thing you're trying to sell.
16:41
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that is interesting, Allison.
16:42
SPEAKER_03: What's it like?
16:44
SPEAKER_03: Gosh, I've never thought about it that way because you are the product.
16:49
SPEAKER_03: I'm thinking of this old line about social media where if you're not sure what
16:54
SPEAKER_03: the product is, then you're the product.
16:57
SPEAKER_03: And I guess politics is the same way.
17:00
SPEAKER_03: I've never thought about it that way.
17:03
SPEAKER_03: What is it like?
17:05
SPEAKER_03: So it's quite interesting because in no other enterprise,
17:15
SPEAKER_03: Compare that to a CEO of a widget company, a computer company, a car company.
17:20
SPEAKER_03: Even if they go on the radio and say something horrific, they make some terrible gaffe.
17:24
SPEAKER_03: The product that comes off the assembly line still speaks for itself, to your point.
17:30
SPEAKER_03: And so on one hand,
17:31
SPEAKER_03: it is tremendously stressful because you are always one bad interview away
17:37
SPEAKER_03: from screwing up the entire thing.
17:39
SPEAKER_03: And so that's a thing.
17:41
SPEAKER_03: But at the same time,
17:43
SPEAKER_03: It's also this tremendous opportunity because it's also a way to pull back
17:49
SPEAKER_03: the curtain as to who you really are and give people a chance to really get
17:53
SPEAKER_03: to know you.
17:55
SPEAKER_03: By talking about some of the things we're talking about today,
17:57
SPEAKER_03: like personal things that I didn't delve into when Mainers got to know me
18:01
SPEAKER_03: because they weren't part of the day to day.
18:03
SPEAKER_03: And so it was actually this tremendous opportunity to really,
18:08
SPEAKER_03: really connect with people and show them a little bit about who I am
18:13
SPEAKER_03: and what makes me tick.
18:15
SPEAKER_03: The other part of that, Alison,
18:16
SPEAKER_03: not directly related to your question,
18:18
SPEAKER_03: but it has been on my mind since the very first campaign event we did,
18:23
SPEAKER_03: which is because of the way in which Mainers got to know me in a high anxiety,
18:29
SPEAKER_03: low trust situation with a lot of medical and health connotations.
18:34
SPEAKER_03: The stories that people shared with me on the campaign trail were incredibly moving.
18:42
SPEAKER_03: Folks would routinely come up to me to talk about their battle with cancer,
18:48
SPEAKER_03: their depression,
18:50
SPEAKER_03: and the struggles that they were having navigating the healthcare system.
18:56
SPEAKER_03: I'm just remembering one in Washington County a couple of months or not too long ago
19:00
SPEAKER_03: of a family that had a child with significant challenges.
19:06
SPEAKER_03: I won't say more because Washington County is not a big place.
19:08
SPEAKER_03: And they pulled me aside after a campaign event and they wanted to know
19:13
SPEAKER_03: if I could just make some phone calls just to find a provider.
19:18
SPEAKER_03: And that's where we are.
19:21
SPEAKER_03: People were struggling to such an event,
19:24
SPEAKER_03: to such an extent,
19:25
SPEAKER_03: That a guy who rolls into callus,
19:28
SPEAKER_03: who they used to see on TV,
19:31
SPEAKER_03: is like the person they are reaching out to in the hope
19:35
SPEAKER_03: that he could help maybe find a doctor for them.
19:39
SPEAKER_03: It was really meaningful.
19:42
SPEAKER_03: Really, really meaningful.
19:43
SPEAKER_03: And I was able to.
19:45
SPEAKER_03: Thankfully, a med school classmate of mine practices at Boston Children's in this area.
19:50
SPEAKER_03: And I was thankfully able to make a connection there.
19:53
SPEAKER_01: I interviewed Chloe Maxman with Lucas Sinclair on Politics
19:57
SPEAKER_01: Between Us two episodes ago and it was interesting talking to the two of them
20:01
SPEAKER_01: because kind of similarly they were talking about how as
20:03
SPEAKER_01: a political candidate you have this license basically
20:08
SPEAKER_01: To just walk down anyone's driveway and talk to them about politics.
20:12
SPEAKER_01: And that's something that you never have in any other part of your life,
20:15
SPEAKER_01: really, to just go to a stranger's house and talk to them about politics.
20:20
SPEAKER_01: And I assume you had a unique experience to have a unique chance
20:24
SPEAKER_01: to have these conversations with a lot of Mainers during this time.
20:28
SPEAKER_01: And is there something that surprised you about what voters were telling you or about
20:37
SPEAKER_01: Disagreement,
20:38
SPEAKER_01: I think that's something that you're really interested in,
20:41
SPEAKER_01: talking to people who don't agree with you 100%.
20:44
SPEAKER_01: Is there something that surprised you in all of those conversations you were able to have?
20:47
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
20:49
SPEAKER_03: Luca, first, again, you are exactly right.
20:52
SPEAKER_03: The privilege of being able to talk with people about politics is one of
20:57
SPEAKER_03: the more gratifying aspects of running for office.
21:00
SPEAKER_03: But to answer your question, it's interesting because...
21:05
SPEAKER_03: With limited exception, Luca,
21:08
SPEAKER_03: I don't think most folks thought that they were talking to me about politics,
21:15
SPEAKER_03: by which I mean the following.
21:16
SPEAKER_03: I was deliberate when I would come up to people.
21:20
SPEAKER_03: And the way I opened the conversation is,
21:25
SPEAKER_03: what could the next governor do to make your life just a little bit better?
21:31
SPEAKER_03: I can't solve all your problems, right?
21:33
SPEAKER_03: The governor cannot solve all your problems.
21:36
SPEAKER_03: But what are two or three things the next governor could do to make your life just
21:41
SPEAKER_03: a little bit better, to make it a little bit easier?
21:45
SPEAKER_03: It shouldn't have to be this hard.
21:48
SPEAKER_03: And so that's how I opened the conversation.
21:50
SPEAKER_03: And we all understand that that is a uniquely political question.
21:54
SPEAKER_03: It is about resource allocation and et cetera, et cetera.
21:58
SPEAKER_03: But the way that I framed it to Mainers is,
22:01
SPEAKER_03: How can the next governor make your life a little bit easier?
22:03
SPEAKER_03: So I suspect most of those folks didn't really realize
22:06
SPEAKER_03: that they were having conversations about politics by design.
22:10
SPEAKER_03: Now, Luca, the thing that was the most striking was what was notable for its absence.
22:18
SPEAKER_03: And that is political commentators these days are very focused on labels.
22:26
SPEAKER_03: Are you a progressive Democrat?
22:28
SPEAKER_03: Are you a DSA aligned Democrat?
22:30
SPEAKER_03: Are you a moderate Democrat?
22:31
SPEAKER_03: Are you a Heather Cox Richardson Democrat?
22:33
SPEAKER_03: The same on the right, okay?
22:36
SPEAKER_03: And what's remarkable, Luca,
22:37
SPEAKER_03: for its absence is that I told my team this after the primary,
22:44
SPEAKER_03: a total of zero main voters asked me, well, are you a progressive?
22:50
SPEAKER_03: Do you align with the trade policies of Bill Clinton?
22:55
SPEAKER_03: Zero, zero people.
22:56
SPEAKER_03: In fact, one of the more common questions I got was,
23:02
SPEAKER_03: The question was, I'm going to vote for you.
23:03
SPEAKER_03: Remind me, are you running as a Republican or a Democrat?
23:07
SPEAKER_03: So this complete lack of interest in the labels that we are often very quick
23:13
SPEAKER_03: to affix to different candidates, a complete lack of interest in those.
23:18
SPEAKER_03: Far more interest in, so how are you going to make childcare more available?
23:24
SPEAKER_03: Or can you really make housing cheaper?
23:27
SPEAKER_03: Things of that nature.
23:28
SPEAKER_03: Far more focus on the issues, far less focus on the political gloss.
23:34
SPEAKER_03: That to me was a good thing.
23:36
SPEAKER_03: I was pleased to hear that.
23:38
SPEAKER_03: And that gave me a lot of hope.
23:40
SPEAKER_01: So I have something I'm really curious about that you said earlier in that answer,
23:44
SPEAKER_01: which is a lot of these conversations you're focused on.
23:49
SPEAKER_01: One or two,
23:50
SPEAKER_01: you're asking for just a couple things
23:52
SPEAKER_01: that could make people's lives tangibly better,
23:55
SPEAKER_01: which seems like a very governance-focused kind of question to be asking someone.
24:00
SPEAKER_01: Whereas,
24:02
SPEAKER_01: I think,
24:03
SPEAKER_01: particularly from my perspective as someone who's younger,
24:07
SPEAKER_01: who hears from a lot of my peers about how disillusioned our generation is
24:14
SPEAKER_01: with politics, How much we feel like we need a transformational vision of politics.
24:20
SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of politicians now are reaching for Like a kind of
24:26
SPEAKER_01: a really transformational lens on their politics and in their campaigning.
24:32
SPEAKER_01: And that seems to be the people who galvanized a lot of the energy right now.
24:35
SPEAKER_01: So how do you like kind of think about that balance between,
24:39
SPEAKER_01: you know, making like, you know, making promises that you can keep.
24:43
SPEAKER_01: I think that's a common phrase in politics
24:45
SPEAKER_01: and also offering people something transformational,
24:48
SPEAKER_01: something hopeful that they can latch on to.
24:51
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well,
24:52
SPEAKER_03: I think you are correct that what a lot of younger folks are looking for is,
24:56
SPEAKER_03: in fact, a different kind of politics.
25:01
SPEAKER_03: I think it goes deeper than that.
25:02
SPEAKER_03: What folks are looking for from a governor perspective is much different
25:07
SPEAKER_03: from what folks are looking for in a congressman or congresswoman.
25:12
SPEAKER_03: I think from a governor, they are looking for operational improvements.
25:17
SPEAKER_03: I think with limited exception,
25:20
SPEAKER_03: there's not really a governor out there who's doing transformational politics,
25:24
SPEAKER_03: not on the left.
25:25
SPEAKER_03: Maybe I can think of one or two on the right who are endeavoring to,
25:30
SPEAKER_03: but it's just not really the stock and trade of what a governor does.
25:35
SPEAKER_03: The governor's job is to deliver effective services,
25:39
SPEAKER_03: maintain public order, things of that nature.
25:42
SPEAKER_01: Now, I think when it comes to Congress,
25:45
SPEAKER_03: And even at the state level,
25:47
SPEAKER_03: that is where there's more latitude to talk about big ideas,
25:52
SPEAKER_03: to talk about things like rooting out corruption,
25:56
SPEAKER_03: term limits,
25:57
SPEAKER_03: partisan gerrymandering,
25:59
SPEAKER_03: a lot of the corrosive aspects that have really,
26:03
SPEAKER_03: frankly, neutered a large part of our democracy.
26:07
SPEAKER_03: And so I think that's what folks are looking for on the legislative side of
26:10
SPEAKER_03: the ledger, a little bit less so on the gubernatorial.
26:14
SPEAKER_03: But make no mistake, Luca,
26:16
SPEAKER_03: even when I would ask folks,
26:19
SPEAKER_03: what are some of the things that the next governor can do to make your life
26:23
SPEAKER_03: a little bit better?
26:25
SPEAKER_03: A not insignificant number of people said,
26:27
SPEAKER_03: well, you could get money out of politics or you could get term limits.
26:31
SPEAKER_03: There already are term limits for governor, but you can impose term limits on more offices.
26:36
SPEAKER_03: You could remove the influence of super PACs and dark money on elections,
26:42
SPEAKER_03: which may in fact be the leader in doing.
26:44
SPEAKER_03: So there were a number of people that went first to issues of democracy,
26:49
SPEAKER_03: governance and corruption.
26:51
SPEAKER_03: But I would say that Three quarters of folks talked about four things,
26:56
SPEAKER_03: healthcare, education, childcare, and housing costs.
27:00
SPEAKER_03: Those are probably the overwhelming majority of things that folks are looking
27:05
SPEAKER_03: for their governor to tackle.
27:07
SPEAKER_03: And then a minority who are focused on term limits,
27:10
SPEAKER_03: corruption, gerrymandering, things of that nature.
27:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I guess I'm,
27:15
SPEAKER_01: even with those kind of more material questions about like housing and affordability
27:21
SPEAKER_01: and stuff, there are people who talk about it in a more transformational way.
27:24
SPEAKER_01: Like they want to make more sweeping changes, like Swarmamdani.
27:28
SPEAKER_01: I know he's not a governor,
27:29
SPEAKER_01: but I think he is trying to revolutionize the way people think about
27:34
SPEAKER_01: the New York City mayoral office.
27:36
SPEAKER_01: Whereas some people have a more,
27:39
SPEAKER_01: a lens, Well,
27:42
SPEAKER_02: except all he's doing is actually the bread and butter of governing.
27:45
SPEAKER_02: I mean, what he's focusing on is trash and he's focusing on – so I actually think
27:51
SPEAKER_02: that proves the point, right?
27:52
SPEAKER_02: I think that there is a sense of – like that it has to be – I mean,
27:56
SPEAKER_02: this is why politics is so hard.
27:58
SPEAKER_02: It's just so hard for a politician to both inspire and be the kind
28:02
SPEAKER_02: of leader people want and then also make sure that the trash gets taken out
28:05
SPEAKER_02: when there's three levers of bureaucracy.
28:06
SPEAKER_02: Right.
28:07
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's actually an impossible job.
28:09
SPEAKER_02: And then we're really mad at you all when you don't do it well.
28:11
SPEAKER_03: That's exactly right.
28:12
SPEAKER_03: I mean, the surest way to lose in the Midwest and in New England,
28:17
SPEAKER_03: the surest way to lose reelection is to not plow the roads.
28:22
SPEAKER_03: Right.
28:22
SPEAKER_03: I mean, like in Chicago, a very,
28:25
SPEAKER_03: very famous Jane Byrne lost her reelection bid because there was a winter and
28:30
SPEAKER_03: a couple of days where the roads weren't plowed.
28:31
SPEAKER_03: And so unless those bread and butter day to day operational things are done, then you're out.
28:38
SPEAKER_03: And what I think the mayor has done a great job of is showing the work that he's doing.
28:42
SPEAKER_03: Something that a lot of non-legislative politicians,
28:46
SPEAKER_03: executive branch politicians are very, very hesitant to do.
28:50
SPEAKER_03: Very hesitant.
28:51
SPEAKER_03: And he's just put out press releases on doing the day-to-day.
28:55
SPEAKER_03: Now, as for the more transformational aspects, Luca, I hope he is successful.
28:59
SPEAKER_03: The jury is still out.
29:01
SPEAKER_03: And so let's check back.
29:03
SPEAKER_03: I want to know if he's actually able to deliver on some of the lofty promises that he's made.
29:10
SPEAKER_03: I think there will be areas where he can, other areas I'm more skeptical on.
29:15
SPEAKER_03: And so I want to know a year from now,
29:17
SPEAKER_03: three years from now, whether he's actually been able to deliver.
29:20
SPEAKER_03: I have a high degree of skepticism.
29:24
SPEAKER_03: For rhetoric,
29:26
SPEAKER_03: particularly transformational rhetoric,
29:28
SPEAKER_03: because American politics since our founding has seen leaders
29:36
SPEAKER_03: who have used lofty language and then not delivered on it on both sides.
29:42
SPEAKER_03: And that is one of the reasons why trust in politics is so low.
29:47
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I love the rhetoric.
29:48
SPEAKER_02: Give me good rhetoric anytime.
29:51
SPEAKER_02: I'm a sucker for it.
29:53
SPEAKER_02: I want to be inspired.
29:54
SPEAKER_02: I want someone to show me the world I want to live in.
29:58
SPEAKER_03: Allison, will you not then be more disillusioned if they are not able to deliver that world?
30:05
SPEAKER_02: My heart is strong.
30:05
SPEAKER_02: It can take it.
30:06
SPEAKER_02: I can take it.
30:07
SPEAKER_01: The thing that I think is...
30:13
SPEAKER_01: Powerful about Zohar Momdani is even when he feels like he's not going to be able
30:18
SPEAKER_01: to deliver something, he explains why.
30:21
SPEAKER_01: So during his last budget fight, he was very clear about why he wasn't getting certain things.
30:28
SPEAKER_01: And he was like,
30:29
SPEAKER_01: it's the MTA president,
30:31
SPEAKER_01: it's Kathy Hochul,
30:32
SPEAKER_01: it's what I don't have enough of these people in offices supporting me or something,
30:37
SPEAKER_01: or that he was left a budget deficit by Eric Adams.
30:41
SPEAKER_01: He communicates these things.
30:43
SPEAKER_01: And so I think voters are actually smarter than people give them credit for oftentimes.
30:48
SPEAKER_01: That's something Alice and I talk about.
30:52
SPEAKER_01: They can figure it out if you're not.
30:54
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
30:55
SPEAKER_01: I'm with Allison.
30:56
SPEAKER_01: I feel like you need to have-
30:59
SPEAKER_01: I'm not suggesting it doesn't
31:00
SPEAKER_03: have a place.
31:02
SPEAKER_03: What I'm suggesting is that a string of politicians,
31:07
SPEAKER_03: more on the left than on the right,
31:09
SPEAKER_03: although the right has been critical,
31:12
SPEAKER_03: has failed this as well, have overpromised and largely underdelivered.
31:17
SPEAKER_03: And that I think sets back progressive politics significantly.
31:23
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I'm still waiting for the high speed rail in California to get going.
31:29
SPEAKER_03: And I've been told by any number of progressive governors in California
31:33
SPEAKER_03: that it's just a couple of years away.
31:36
SPEAKER_03: But yet it has not happened.
31:38
SPEAKER_03: And so it's that sort of lofty rhetoric that is not matched with actual results
31:44
SPEAKER_03: that I think really, again, really corrodes progressive politics.
31:51
SPEAKER_02: I'm absolutely with you on that.
31:52
SPEAKER_02: And I may love it,
31:53
SPEAKER_02: but I think you're absolutely right that it is I mean,
31:56
SPEAKER_02: I think the bind we're in is that it's often the rhetoric that's going
31:59
SPEAKER_02: to bring people back into the experience,
32:01
SPEAKER_02: but then we will lose the momentum if we can't actually deliver
32:08
SPEAKER_02: on making people's lives better and actually connecting.
32:11
SPEAKER_02: And I will say,
32:11
SPEAKER_02: I'm just going to suggest to you, Nirav,
32:13
SPEAKER_02: that actually what I saw you do during COVID,
32:17
SPEAKER_02: I actually think was transformational because what I thought you were doing
32:21
SPEAKER_02: for me was you had – I'm going to call it energy,
32:26
SPEAKER_02: but you led with a certain energy of the way you would communicate with authenticity
32:32
SPEAKER_02: and openness.
32:33
SPEAKER_02: That didn't have to be lofty.
32:34
SPEAKER_02: That just had to be the way that you stood in the room.
32:38
SPEAKER_02: To me, leadership,
32:40
SPEAKER_02: when I say rhetoric as well,
32:41
SPEAKER_02: I am talking about the bigger picture of who you are and how you are showing up in
32:45
SPEAKER_02: that space.
32:46
SPEAKER_03: Well, that is very kind.
32:47
SPEAKER_03: And I agree with you there.
32:49
SPEAKER_03: And I'm very thankful that you said that,
32:53
SPEAKER_03: Allison,
32:55
SPEAKER_03: because what I was very,
32:57
SPEAKER_03: very careful to do or not to do during COVID was over-promise and under-deliver.
33:02
SPEAKER_03: And again,
33:04
SPEAKER_03: counterparts of mine in other states made these absurd promises that landed them on
33:08
SPEAKER_03: the front page of the paper.
33:10
SPEAKER_03: You know, a vaccine is going to be delivered for everybody in a week or things of that nature.
33:15
SPEAKER_03: And then lo and behold, when that did not happen.
33:20
SPEAKER_03: There was a loss of faith and trust in governance.
33:24
SPEAKER_03: And so what I and so, Luca, I sort of I want to go back to this distinction that you set up.
33:28
SPEAKER_03: I don't think there is a distinction between nuts and bolts,
33:32
SPEAKER_03: effective governance and lofty and insufficiency.
33:35
SPEAKER_03: And I think most folks would be thrilled with a government
33:44
SPEAKER_03: that actually delivered healthcare,
33:46
SPEAKER_03: that actually made housing affordable,
33:48
SPEAKER_03: that actually made childcare something that was within reach
33:51
SPEAKER_03: and actually improved our schools.
33:53
SPEAKER_03: Even if the rhetoric were not as glossy as one might like,
33:58
SPEAKER_03: That's what I fear is missing right now, particularly on the left.
34:04
SPEAKER_03: And that's what I want to try to move away from.
34:08
SPEAKER_03: Giving a fiery speech, not that hard, but actually improving childcare, exceedingly difficult.
34:17
SPEAKER_03: And I want the left to focus more on delivery of results and a little less
34:23
SPEAKER_03: on writing the best speech.
34:25
SPEAKER_02: Okay, I think we're gonna have to disagree on this because I'm my view is like,
34:28
SPEAKER_02: the left actually is terrible at fiery speeches.
34:30
SPEAKER_02: I'm like,
34:30
SPEAKER_02: what we like,
34:31
SPEAKER_02: we actually don't have very many good like,
34:34
SPEAKER_02: you know,
34:34
SPEAKER_02: Graham Plattner ended up being one of the best orders that we've had in
34:37
SPEAKER_02: a very long time.
34:38
SPEAKER_02: I mean, like, you know, I think I totally agree that we should do better on the governing.
34:42
SPEAKER_02: But I also feel like, wow, we could also we could also level up in the in the oratory skills.
34:47
SPEAKER_01: And I think it's the center, the center left Dems who are stopping all of this from happening.
34:51
SPEAKER_02: So Of course
34:52
SPEAKER_03: you do.
34:53
SPEAKER_03: I don't know about that.
34:54
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I think,
34:55
SPEAKER_03: I think it's the center left that really is focused on the nuts and bolts
34:59
SPEAKER_03: of governance.
35:01
SPEAKER_03: Um,
35:03
SPEAKER_03: And that's where I am really fearful that maybe not in this cycle,
35:08
SPEAKER_03: but in the next midterms,
35:10
SPEAKER_03: where I'm really fearful that the left will lose some of the momentum
35:16
SPEAKER_03: that they have right now is when there are not results.
35:20
SPEAKER_03: And that's what's going to be – I mean, housing prices don't fall.
35:25
SPEAKER_03: Right.
35:25
SPEAKER_03: If childcare is just as unavailable,
35:28
SPEAKER_03: at least in Maine, if education, if Maine is still 44th or 47th in the country.
35:36
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
35:36
SPEAKER_02: Well, you're a man after my own heart catastrophizing about two to four years ahead
35:40
SPEAKER_02: because that's like what I want to do.
35:42
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
35:43
SPEAKER_02: So let's think about that.
35:44
SPEAKER_02: So tell us, give us a sneak peek.
35:47
SPEAKER_02: Where are you going to be in two or four years?
35:48
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
35:50
SPEAKER_03: Well, there's an easy way to answer that, and there's a harder way.
35:53
SPEAKER_03: The easy way is that my family and I are absolutely committed to staying in Maine.
35:58
SPEAKER_03: So it's not as if we're going to be moving or anything like that.
36:02
SPEAKER_03: We're not going anywhere.
36:03
SPEAKER_03: So the easy answer, Allison, is that we are definitely going to be in Maine.
36:07
SPEAKER_03: In terms of what that might look like for me and my family, we're still trying to sort that out.
36:14
SPEAKER_03: On one hand, the reasons why I ran last year remain intact.
36:20
SPEAKER_03: You know,
36:21
SPEAKER_03: which is to say,
36:22
SPEAKER_03: what can I do to make the broadest impact on the greatest number of people?
36:27
SPEAKER_03: And so perhaps that will entail thinking about getting back into politics.
36:32
SPEAKER_03: Perhaps not.
36:34
SPEAKER_03: There's so much about the political world and success in the political world
36:38
SPEAKER_03: that is external to the candidate themselves.
36:41
SPEAKER_03: There's a lot of other political wins that swirl.
36:45
SPEAKER_03: And so if it's one where the conditions are favorable,
36:49
SPEAKER_03: then hey, And maybe I will think about reentering the political world.
36:54
SPEAKER_03: If not, right now and into the future,
36:59
SPEAKER_03: I'm going to continue to stay focused on the issues that I care a lot about.
37:04
SPEAKER_03: So for me,
37:04
SPEAKER_03: those are,
37:05
SPEAKER_03: we've already talked about them,
37:06
SPEAKER_03: education, housing, healthcare, food insecurity, things of that nature.
37:12
SPEAKER_03: I'm really, really excited to be working with students again at Colby.
37:18
SPEAKER_03: Because to Luca's earlier point,
37:21
SPEAKER_03: one of the places in which I get a lot of energy myself is from young people.
37:29
SPEAKER_03: And their idealism and their hopes and their desire for a better world is one
37:35
SPEAKER_03: that I want to latch myself onto.
37:37
SPEAKER_03: And so being able and having the privilege of spending time with younger students
37:41
SPEAKER_03: at Colby and teaching them and talking about issues like law,
37:45
SPEAKER_03: public policy, social change, that is really, really meaningful.
37:49
SPEAKER_03: And I'm enjoying every minute of that.
37:52
SPEAKER_02: Well, I'm so glad that...
37:54
SPEAKER_02: You are having the experience that I have of intergenerational dialogue
37:57
SPEAKER_02: that is just like both younger and older.
38:00
SPEAKER_02: It's so important to be hearing from different perspectives.
38:04
SPEAKER_02: And I just want to thank you for just really,
38:07
SPEAKER_02: there's so many things that I'll take with me from the conversation,
38:09
SPEAKER_02: but just your description of even talking to main voters and day after day
38:13
SPEAKER_02: and just reminding me that the power and beauty of politics,
38:17
SPEAKER_02: of actually connecting with real people to hear about the kind of life
38:20
SPEAKER_02: that they want.
38:21
SPEAKER_02: And It's just inspiring to me to remember that that is when I think
38:25
SPEAKER_02: about campaigning and think of all the negative,
38:27
SPEAKER_02: there's that beauty that you are a part of and that you are able to translate.
38:31
SPEAKER_02: And I'm really grateful for that.
38:33
SPEAKER_03: Well, thank you, Alison.
38:34
SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
38:35
SPEAKER_03: That means a lot.
38:35
SPEAKER_03: And again, I really appreciate the opportunity to come on.
38:40
SPEAKER_03: And chat about these issues with you,
38:42
SPEAKER_03: thinking about the future,
38:43
SPEAKER_03: where we go, how we think about what kind of candidates we want.
38:48
SPEAKER_03: This is quite helpful.
38:49
SPEAKER_03: So I really appreciate that.
38:51
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, thank you so much for joining
38:52
SPEAKER_01: Politics Between Us.
38:53
SPEAKER_01: It was wonderful to have you on with us.