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Six-Foot-Six, Blonde & British: How I Became Jamaica's Most Unlikely Police Reform Hero · Babes, how did you get here

0:30
i ddwch yn brydwch fwy Rhyw, pledig ac fwy'n roes hyn oeddwni'r ffyd yn rhan,
0:33
Ond ar ddoldrwymaidd yr ar les, gweld ac ar sut oeddwnedu'r ffyd.
0:37
Mae'r ffordd i'r ffydwch yn siol yn llawr o'n ddod.
0:41
Ond wedi'r middwl ar y ffordd, ddodwch yn folymaol yn amdol yma.
0:47
Mae'r plydefiol ac yn amser.
0:50
Mae'r rhan y scu sydd wedi'u gwneud yn gydol yma.
0:54
fel yn yw'r cymau, pethwn sifllaf i llwyntau'r clytygu yn prwyntau'r clymau.
0:58
Mae'r pethwn sifllaf i llwyntau'r cymau yn fawr y newiddiadau,
1:01
crywka. Mae'n ac, mae'r clymau'r awr, fwyntau'r clymau'r sefysio a gwneud
1:02
am i'r gynniadau wrthynniadau,ethau'r bydellauwn yn weld ac unrhyw.
1:06
Wydnau, maen nhw'n ddigit yw'n ddung.
1:09
Mae'r clymau' nes yw'n g observation maen nhw'n gweithio,
1:12
eu sy'n diwchyd.
1:13
Marek, thank you very much for coming here.
1:15
I actually heard of you when,
1:17
so when you came to Jamaica, I think it was 2005,
1:19
I was at school
1:21
and I heard that you were coming to Jamaica.
1:23
I don't know why.
1:24
My dad used to always tell me to watch the news
1:26
and like listen and read the newspaper.
1:28
He's always costing me that I'm not aware enough
1:30
of like what is going on.
1:32
And so for whatever reason, I guess at that time
1:34
you must have been in the news because I knew
1:36
and then we fast forward over many years later
1:38
and then I get to speak to you, so I'm very excited.
1:40
Thank you.
1:42
So you came to Jamaica to be the deputy commissioner
1:45
at the JCF?
1:46
Yeah.
1:47
What does that mean?
1:48
Well, before I was deputy commissioner police,
1:52
I was working at Scotland Yard, New Scotland Yard.
1:54
For those who don't know, that's the head
1:56
of the Metropolitan Police Service in London.
1:58
The headquarters is Scotland Yard known as New Scotland Yard
2:01
and I had a pretty senior position there,
2:04
investigating international drug trafficking,
2:07
terrorism, different departments.
2:09
It was very interesting work.
2:11
And then I had an opportunity to come to Jamaica
2:13
to investigate a senior police officer
2:15
who had been accused of murdering four innocent people.
2:19
Okay.
2:20
I came with a team, I thought I'd be here for two weeks.
2:23
It turned into two years, almost.
2:26
And at the end of that,
2:28
the then Minister of National Security Dr Peter Phillips
2:31
called me to his office and I thought,
2:33
well, I don't know what this is about,
2:35
but then he offered me a job as deputy commissioner.
2:37
And between the Jamaica government, the UK government,
2:41
and the private sector here,
2:43
they funded for me to become deputy commissioner police
2:47
for a period of time.
2:49
Okay.
2:50
I made a condition that if I did that,
2:52
I wanted for ACPs as assistant commissioner of police
2:55
because I realised there was quite a lot of work
2:58
to do to modernise the JCF.
3:00
There are lots of very, very old practices
3:04
that I can give examples of that would shock you.
3:07
And so I said, yes, I've come.
3:09
And I ended up staying for five years in that particular post.
3:12
Other stayed longer than me,
3:14
but I thought five years was a knock
3:16
because it was a very challenging job.
3:18
A very satisfying job in many ways,
3:20
on the one hand, but very frustrating in other ways.
3:23
And at the end of the five years,
3:25
I've done what I can, and that's it.
3:27
And I've been here ever since.
3:29
So when you came for that initial two weeks
3:31
that became two years,
3:32
do you go back to the UK before taking on the five years?
3:35
Absolutely.
3:36
Yeah.
3:37
Before taking on the full time route,
3:38
I was back and forth on, you know,
3:39
B-A-2-2-2-6-2,
3:41
B-A-2-2-2-6-3,
3:42
back and forth.
3:45
And then eventually, you know,
3:47
it got longer periods and I stanked.
3:49
Before that first trip coming to Jamaica,
3:52
had you visited before?
3:54
No.
3:56
Well, there's a part A and part B to that.
4:00
I've given you a shortened version of what happened.
4:02
Sure.
4:03
I actually came out here as a consultant initially
4:05
from the police to look at crime,
4:07
how crime was recorded with the intelligence system.
4:10
I did that and left.
4:12
So coming back to investigate,
4:14
is actually because they said,
4:15
well, Mark, you've been there before.
4:16
Sure.
4:17
Come, can you do that?
4:18
So that was probably 2002.
4:20
Okay.
4:21
So effectively, I've had a sort of 20-year relationship
4:23
with Jamaica that started off as a culture
4:26
and I ended up coming here and getting married
4:28
to if I can put it in fact that.
4:30
And before the first time you ever came here,
4:33
so it was for work.
4:34
Did you have impressions of Jamaica?
4:36
Yeah, I had impressions of Jamaica
4:38
because I lived in Stone, New England.
4:40
I'd lived in Hackney.
4:42
I knew quite a few Africans.
4:45
One thought that I had the friends
4:47
when I was arresting them,
4:49
which was going,
4:51
if you see what I mean.
4:52
He saw it.
4:53
Yes.
4:54
So when you arrived,
4:56
did you feel,
4:58
did you feel that it was somewhere that you could live
5:00
when you arrived?
5:01
No, not really.
5:02
I think I've always described Jamaica
5:05
as being like Marmite.
5:07
Okay.
5:08
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5:09
We hate Marmite.
5:10
I love Marmite.
5:11
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5:12
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Marmite.
5:52
Okay.
5:53
And I think a lot of people
5:54
that came to Jamaica,
5:55
were of that opinion,
5:56
that they come here,
5:57
and they found it a bit too much,
5:59
in their face,
6:00
a bit too much.
6:01
There's a level of disorder here,
6:05
which some people,
6:06
such as we can find,
6:07
we can find that quite nice.
6:08
We like it.
6:09
You can feel comfortable with it,
6:10
to a degree.
6:11
But others just,
6:13
they can't deal with the disorder,
6:15
and the way things are here,
6:16
and they just leave,
6:17
which is fine.
6:18
I respect that.
6:20
But other people come here,
6:21
and I've got many British friends,
6:23
and friends from other parts of the world,
6:25
here have come here,
6:26
absolutely love Jamaica,
6:27
and they don't leave.
6:28
Sure.
6:29
So there really are two groups.
6:30
I feel like that is Jamaican culture,
6:32
and like the people that I took a lot of time,
6:34
like we live on either end of the spectrum.
6:36
I don't feel like,
6:37
for example, in England,
6:38
I think many people can kind of live on middle ground.
6:40
You know, you don't go too high,
6:42
you don't go too low,
6:43
whereas I just feel like
6:44
Jamaica doesn't really do that.
6:46
No, it's...
6:49
That culturally,
6:50
they're different to the people in the United Kingdom.
6:52
It's what we've...
6:53
As I said, there's...
6:55
Jamaicans do not like to be restricted too much,
6:59
those who stay here.
7:00
Right.
7:01
There is a level here of disorder,
7:04
that is just on the verge of being accepted,
7:08
when becomes unacceptable.
7:10
Right.
7:11
I can give examples of that.
7:12
You will go from here to...
7:14
to Ligonese,
7:16
and you'll at least see two or three guys having a piss in the street.
7:19
That does not happen in London,
7:20
it does not happen in Florida.
7:22
Those things don't happen.
7:24
If you get to a red light here,
7:27
you'll stop at the red light,
7:28
and if you're the first in the line,
7:30
then when the light goes red,
7:32
these people come in this way,
7:33
find it optional,
7:34
that they might stop or they might not.
7:36
So you have to sit there,
7:37
and wait for the rest of the red light jumpers
7:39
to jump their light before you go.
7:41
So you'll get to a traffic intersection,
7:44
and there's no idea about a yellow box.
7:46
Everybody's doing this,
7:47
and everybody's blasting their horn,
7:49
and so they're the things that drive people crazy,
7:52
to some degree.
7:53
Whereas if you're in London,
7:55
New York, Miami,
7:57
if it's a red light, you stop.
7:59
You don't piss in the street.
8:01
You don't do certain other things.
8:02
You don't throw your litter,
8:04
your garbage out of the car,
8:05
into the gully or whatever.
8:07
So there are things here,
8:08
which they're not acceptable,
8:10
but people live with,
8:13
but on the other hand,
8:15
there are extreme advantages of living here,
8:18
which are the culture,
8:20
generally speaking,
8:21
people are very friendly,
8:22
people are very laid back,
8:24
they're genuine,
8:25
and so there are lots of good things.
8:27
Jamaicans can't tolerate.
8:29
People who are from Jamaica say,
8:31
I cannot believe what it's like here,
8:33
some of them leave.
8:34
You probably know that quite a high percentage
8:37
of Jamaicans leave,
8:38
not just because they can find work elsewhere,
8:41
but they just want that order,
8:42
that sense of order,
8:44
that isn't always here.
8:46
I think that's really it.
8:48
When you came,
8:49
did you come with family?
8:50
No, I came on the verge of a divorce
8:53
and got to law swastar was here,
8:55
and then I remarried
8:57
when I got to Jamaica,
8:58
some years later.
8:59
Okay, and when you started working,
9:02
your hotel here?
9:04
A six foot six.
9:05
Six foot six.
9:06
You're not smart, right?
9:07
No.
9:08
Right, you're a six foot six.
9:10
Blonde blue eyes.
9:11
Why a guy from England?
9:12
Blonde.
9:13
Yeah.
9:14
When was the last time your eyes tested?
9:16
I went to the...
9:17
I went to the...
9:18
I wish it was blocked,
9:19
because I joke that my hair's blocked.
9:20
No, it's not, Mr. Shield.
9:22
But you've come,
9:25
you have a clearly distinctive English accent,
9:28
and you're coming to work
9:30
inside the police force in Jamaica.
9:32
Did you feel that that was well received?
9:35
Did you feel there was some resentment?
9:37
What was the culture like?
9:39
It was all of the above.
9:41
Okay.
9:42
A percentage of the Jamaican Stabry Force
9:46
accepted me,
9:47
supported what we were trying to do,
9:50
and wanted change.
9:52
Okay.
9:53
They really wanted change,
9:54
because they realized
9:56
how far they had to come
9:57
to this position,
9:59
this transformation of the JCF,
10:01
which they talk about today,
10:02
and they'll come to that in a minute.
10:05
I think there was probably a higher percentage,
10:08
including at senior ranks,
10:10
that just didn't want us there at all.
10:13
The level of corruption was quite high.
10:15
The level of fatal shootings
10:17
was out of control.
10:18
There was no checks and balances
10:20
around any of that,
10:21
so it was quite a hard environment.
10:23
However,
10:24
the public,
10:26
the people of Jamaica,
10:27
absolutely welcomed me.
10:29
They welcomed my colleagues,
10:31
and even today,
10:32
when I came into this building,
10:34
the woman downstairs,
10:35
even though I left in 2009,
10:37
she said,
10:38
what's your name?
10:39
I said,
10:40
Shields.
10:41
She said, what's your first name?
10:42
I said,
10:43
Mark Shields.
10:44
You're Mark Shields?
10:45
And I said,
10:46
yeah, I'm Mark Shields.
10:47
Oh, it's really nice to meet you
10:48
for the first time,
10:49
and I get that all of the time,
10:50
even after all this time.
10:52
I've never really had
10:53
any negative criticism
10:54
from Jamaican people.
10:56
They have,
10:57
both in terms of diaspora
10:58
and here,
10:59
welcomed us coming here,
11:01
although I said,
11:02
I did my five years and left,
11:04
we put our plans into place,
11:06
that has now,
11:07
the force has been transformed.
11:09
There have been numerous changes,
11:11
which are positive.
11:12
Technology has arrived.
11:14
Crime scenes have managed
11:16
more properly than they used to be.
11:18
Lots of things have changed
11:19
for the better.
11:20
There's still a long way to go,
11:21
but it's incredibly better
11:23
than it was.
11:24
Is that right?
11:25
Incredibly better, can I say?
11:26
It's much better than it was.
11:27
It's incredible.
11:28
It was actually here.
11:29
Yeah.
11:30
I'll use that again.
11:31
No, it's a lot better than it was.
11:33
Sure.
11:34
But it was tough.
11:35
In that first year,
11:36
I'll give you two examples.
11:38
You're not an exhibit bag,
11:40
so you can imagine,
11:41
because you've watched crying programs.
11:42
Yeah, line order.
11:43
We're on order.
11:44
And you've got something that's an exhibit.
11:46
Right.
11:47
And you pick it up,
11:48
or you don't pick it up,
11:49
get whatever it is,
11:50
and you put it into an exhibit space.
11:51
Sorry.
11:52
When I first came here,
11:53
in the early 2000s,
11:55
an exhibit bag,
11:57
was a brown paper bag,
11:59
which you'd fold over the end,
12:01
and then you'd put a wax seal on it,
12:03
which is the equivalent
12:04
to the thing you'd see
12:05
if you're watching something
12:06
to do with Napoleon,
12:07
a waxed seal.
12:08
Yeah.
12:09
Literally.
12:10
So we introduced the exhibit bags.
12:11
These are really simple examples.
12:13
When I came here,
12:15
a crime scene,
12:17
was photographed in black and white.
12:20
Okay.
12:21
A post-mortem was photographed
12:23
in black and white.
12:24
Now, as you can imagine,
12:25
you get no sense of bruises,
12:27
color, or anything or abrasion
12:29
from black and white.
12:30
So within the first year,
12:32
we introduced proper exhibit bags.
12:34
Exactly.
12:35
We introduced color photography.
12:36
They're the simple things.
12:37
Yeah.
12:38
As people would have to say,
12:39
low-hanging food.
12:40
Sure.
12:41
There were lots of other things
12:42
that were done in the background,
12:43
some of which the public would never have seen.
12:45
But there were some significant changes.
12:47
The way crime was recorded,
12:48
the way we investigated crime,
12:50
forming major investigation task force,
12:54
rather than individual offices
12:56
and detectives having huge case loads of murders, etc.
13:00
And all of that has taken
13:02
a lot longer than I hoped.
13:04
But I think we planted the seed.
13:06
But we're not going to take all the credit
13:08
because things have moved on since then significantly.
13:10
And when you first came,
13:12
is there anything that, like,
13:14
just in your day-to-day living experience
13:16
that shocked you culturally?
13:18
I'm not talking from a work perspective.
13:20
I mean, the fact that you decided to move to Jamaica,
13:22
you decided to spend some time here.
13:24
Is there anything that was unexpected?
13:28
No, I don't think there's anything unexpected.
13:30
I think that, let's say,
13:32
for a work perspective,
13:34
being one of the only white males
13:37
and clearly from London with a London accent
13:39
as opposed to Jamaican accent.
13:41
I would go to crime scene,
13:42
and I'd be suited up with my tie on.
13:44
I wouldn't necessarily wear body armor.
13:46
So I was quite high profile in that way.
13:49
But, as I said, I was accepting.
13:51
So it wasn't that difficult.
13:53
And when I was not at work,
13:55
people looked after me.
13:56
I was generally looked after
13:58
because people were quite happy I was here.
14:00
So culturally,
14:01
there wasn't that much difference at that level.
14:03
I think, you know,
14:04
on these superficial issues that I've mentioned before,
14:07
yeah, there are big differences,
14:09
but there is so much going forward to make in terms of,
14:12
you know, sport, music,
14:16
just the countryside,
14:18
the fact that there are beaches
14:19
and a relatively clean sea and everything that goes with it.
14:21
There is fresh fruit.
14:23
There are lots of good things about this country
14:25
that I've come to love.
14:27
Is there a big difference,
14:29
obviously surface level,
14:30
between policing in the UK and policing in Jamaica?
14:33
The else of that is there shouldn't be,
14:35
because policing is a bit like carrying out.
14:38
If you imagine a murder investigation
14:40
is a bit like somebody with a heart problem,
14:42
you go into sea surgeon,
14:44
and whether you see a surgeon in Jamaica or London,
14:49
that procedure of fixing a heart is not the same.
14:52
If you're going to a crime scene
14:54
and somebody has been murdered,
14:56
then the procedure should be the same,
14:59
in terms of what you're doing, you know,
15:01
containing the scene,
15:03
keeping it uncontaminated,
15:04
having an opportunity
15:05
so that takes names
15:06
that everybody going on to that crime scene.
15:08
When I first came here,
15:09
there was no crime scene take.
15:10
People were trampling all over the scene.
15:12
People are coming up and looking at, you know,
15:14
what's going on.
15:15
There was no control,
15:16
whereas in the UK,
15:17
we were very disciplined around that.
15:19
It has now improved a lot.
15:20
We still make mistakes here from time to time,
15:22
but generally speaking,
15:23
so there are the sort of differences
15:25
that I would say that would be.
15:26
And then when you decided to walk away from the forest,
15:29
did you consider that it was time to go home at that point?
15:32
No, because by that time I'd met my wife.
15:34
My daughter was born the same year
15:37
that I'd left the force
15:39
and started my own company.
15:41
My wife is a broadcast journalist.
15:44
She's quite well-known in Jamaica.
15:46
She's now also got her own law firm as well.
15:49
She's an attorney at law.
15:51
And so, although perhaps I would like to have gone back,
15:54
it would have been unfair to her.
15:56
If I was coming to the end of my career sale,
15:58
by the way,
15:59
forget whatever you're doing now,
16:00
you're leaving your company.
16:01
She could go be an attorney.
16:02
Well, she could,
16:03
but it wouldn't really have been fair.
16:04
And I was quite happy here.
16:06
I wanted to set up a company here,
16:07
my own company.
16:08
Okay.
16:09
I don't know if I mentioned to you before,
16:11
but I was always,
16:12
I think a frustrated entrepreneur
16:15
who never had the courage to leave policing
16:18
and go out and do something.
16:21
And so, it wasn't until I got to the end of my policing career,
16:24
I said, right,
16:25
this is it.
16:26
I want to go and do my own thing.
16:28
I don't want to go and work for MX,
16:29
or for Barkey Card,
16:31
or whatever it was,
16:32
I want to start my own company.
16:34
So, that's what I did.
16:35
And what did you start?
16:36
I started a company called Shields Crime and Security.
16:40
And we were a classic security company.
16:43
We provide the services that other security companies do.
16:46
I believe we do it to a very high level
16:48
and judging by our clients,
16:50
I think that's true.
16:51
I'm a strong believer in technology,
16:54
as opposed to relying on people
16:56
to do things around security.
16:58
And so, my focus is on that.
17:00
It's on cameras.
17:01
It's on other forms of detection of crime,
17:03
prevention of crime.
17:04
And when you hear a client,
17:06
it's corporate clients.
17:07
It's both.
17:09
But it's mainly corporate clients.
17:11
We work with hotels.
17:12
We work with industry.
17:14
We work with commerce.
17:16
Okay.
17:17
All sorts really.
17:18
I was actually, before I came here today,
17:20
I was at an apartment block in Kingston,
17:23
which is a very high-end apartment block.
17:25
And I think we'll be providing security there.
17:27
Okay.
17:28
And changing the cameras,
17:29
because the cameras that we use are from an American company.
17:32
It's a card.
17:33
Okay.
17:34
It's a KADA.
17:35
And they are second to none.
17:37
Okay.
17:38
Because they're facial recognition,
17:39
vehicle recognition.
17:40
If you imagine at the moment,
17:41
I get to go back to a TV program.
17:44
And they say, well,
17:45
we'll look at this camera.
17:46
We know that something happened in the last six hours.
17:48
Right.
17:49
And they will sit there and just go through the footage.
17:51
I can actually ask my camera's a question.
17:53
Okay.
17:54
Can you show me every FedEx vehicle
17:56
here in the last three hours?
17:57
Very cool.
17:58
Can you show me every person,
18:00
or say, mail with a yellow backpack?
18:02
And they'll just come up.
18:03
So if you've got a crime situation,
18:05
the victim says, well,
18:07
all I can tell you is,
18:08
he had a yellow backpack.
18:09
Sure.
18:10
And he went in that direction.
18:11
I can bring up my cameras
18:12
and show you every person with a yellow backpack.
18:15
Yeah.
18:16
In a particular time zone.
18:17
Do you think that the GCF
18:19
needs to use more technology?
18:21
Absolutely.
18:22
They are.
18:23
I read the other day that they're going to add cameras
18:26
all over the place.
18:27
I thought it was a really good thing.
18:29
No, it's good.
18:30
It's excellent.
18:31
They have a thing called Jamaica Eye.
18:32
And when I was here,
18:33
there was nothing like Jamaica Eye.
18:34
Okay.
18:35
We now have Jamaica Eye.
18:36
What do you mean by that?
18:37
It's an integrated camera system for the police.
18:40
Okay.
18:41
In order that they can monitor particular areas
18:43
and crime hotspots.
18:44
Okay.
18:45
It's good.
18:46
In my view, it could be better.
18:48
Okay.
18:49
But it's good.
18:50
It's good.
18:51
And it's a lot better than having nothing at all.
18:52
Very true.
18:53
I hope that we don't get the orange box,
18:55
traffic light cameras.
18:57
Why?
18:58
Everywhere.
18:59
What?
19:00
Is it with me, maybe, a bit sad?
19:02
But it would also save about 300 lives a year.
19:05
Is that how many people have car accidents?
19:07
If you think about it on average,
19:09
they're between 400 and 450 people killed per year.
19:14
Okay.
19:15
If you take...
19:16
The same size population would be atland.
19:19
Okay.
19:20
It's about 3 million people.
19:21
Yep.
19:22
They probably have about 40 people killed a year.
19:25
Unroent.
19:26
Yeah, we do these at least that they add these yellow box cameras
19:28
everywhere.
19:29
Ila i loton a'r sgயfydd ni'n gwaiaethygu.
19:31
A diolch?
19:32
Mae ac mae'n ymwchio'r ond pob i'r acafioedad o meddwl am.
19:35
Mae ni'n llaethau yma metwchio sobyn a'r gwneud pyl,
19:39
Mae'n gwneud i'r gwyffol yna.
19:41
Mae'r agryddiad ac yn ei bod yn hynny'n gwyffol yna.
19:42
ti'n ei bod oedig yn gwneud ddefnydoraethau ffethyni feddwl.
19:45
Mae'n gwas iawn i eisiau amserig i'w i'n gwaiaethi.
19:48
Mae'n gwaiaethi yma a'r arweddol cynddyn ddwy.
19:50
ddiwch ddiodd, gynhyrch yddiwch, etaer eich Gymruedd.
19:54
Mae'n Gymru'n cylwodaeth amser y ffondrys i fy rhywbeth gr Normalareg.
20:01
Mae'n eu wedi'i'r chi'n ddyswyr ddigodau'r cytwchai sydd wedyn a pethanedraethitio.
20:08
Gwyddwn rhwyth fel swyddiwch drwnaeth boedd.
20:13
Mae'n cylwror i ac tot yna yw, mae nhw, mae'n cylwyr yw, o ymddenas instant cwkwy.
20:19
a'r unru yn ym deall o'r unru'r argymwn y pyseth ymwyr.
21:19
Felly
21:49
o de gweithio efallai'r â i wino, yn ymws fel a'ch hon yn edich a ni dwi'r yng Wilkinson
22:00
am yw i ddeimdra雖d. Mae'r chw�로. Llywodra yn ddeimdra雖d. Mae'r gwnasio'r yw'r isr,
22:11
ydddol, a ddiadau angen wrthau a bobl bethanwch amel o fryti.
22:46
Rydym wedi'r 2018 yn y Slleilbrwythau Rydym Gyllówio Gwi'n G�aethol Ysgwier Gweithio'r Dweod yn y Ysgwyrddio'r Gweithio,
22:54
yn dysgu Gweithio Gweithio, yn gwy'r gwy'r Rwy'r Gweithio Gweithio'r Gweithio,
23:00
yn ffydwch yn y Dweud wrth gwy'r Gweithio yn gennych
23:04
gyfreylch, fel Gymen yn y Dweud Hymnol.
23:07
Y Burgy'r Gweithio'r Gweithio ger gyfer Gweithio'r Gweithio.
23:10
Mae'n Gweithio'r Gweithio, yn y Gweithio'r Gweithio'r Gweithio.
23:14
ydy bywch yn ddyfneud llanc hynny yng Nghymru yn ei fywd oes.
23:20
Ond ond yn gallu gallau'r Roedd ymlygu môr rhaid.
23:24
Ond a'r Roedd ymgymr, roedd yna, roedd ymlygu ar hynny.
23:29
Felly ac yng Nghymru mewn morddol, فيw ddiwbats.
23:32
Llwn ymlygu ar ddyfneud drwy'n ddol,
23:35
yng Nghymru mewn morddol ymlygu ar ymryd ddech ddyn nhw,
24:09
i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i'n gweith i
25:39
egan spoken nhwphad. Mi disent
26:39
my house is now worth over £1 million, she said it's just unbelievable. So if you live
26:46
here where property prices are not cheap, to actually leave here, sell up and go back and buy
26:51
a property in the UK, it's not prohibitive. No, it's not. Yeah. Going back to you deciding to
26:58
see, did your friends who were in the UK think that you were taking a step back in your career,
27:03
because sometimes when you think people who live abroad and they're like oh I'm coming to
27:07
Jamaica, there's this misconception that you're going backwards. No, I let people down.
27:12
I think professionally, when I was working in Scotland Yard, I had a really good career match,
27:18
so I probably would have gone somewhat further. I wouldn't necessarily become Commissioner
27:22
Police, I'm not saying that, but there was a lot I could have done in that extra five years,
27:27
and I think some of my colleagues were disappointed that I left and went to Jamaica,
27:31
and indeed friends and family were disappointed that I made that decision as well.
27:37
So that is a regret in some ways. Okay. That is a regret, but we all reach crossroads in our lives,
27:46
and you go down a particular path and you made that decision. I would never have thought 25
27:50
years ago or 20 years ago, I would end up sitting here talking to you, having lived in Jamaica
27:56
for 20 years, you some believers. And when you look back on your time, you speak about people
28:03
respecting because of clearly you have done so much for the JCF, is there anything that you
28:07
wish you could have achieved during your time that you didn't? I just wish things that had
28:12
moved faster than they did. Sure. And there are a number of factors around that. One is
28:18
changing any organisation is always slow and difficult, and because there are cultural
28:23
differences, that probably slowed it down even more. I know for a fact there are some things that
28:28
I said that we should be doing this, and I left, and suddenly it was somebody else locally's idea.
28:33
It was a great idea. So that's good. I don't mind that, because we know, as I said, we moved on
28:39
so far. So my regrets are that things took longer than I expected, because I think this country
28:45
could get so much further in terms of getting on top of crime, getting on top of disorder,
28:51
social disorder. I think we could have moved a long way, but then I go back to the UK again,
28:56
and you look at the knife crime, the disorder, there is in particular communities.
29:01
The fact that even when somebody is taken to court, if they get to court, you can take two or
29:06
three years for people to find justice. So you can't ever look at the Europe, or let's say
29:13
they're focused on the United Kingdom and say, well, you know, it's perfect over there,
29:17
and to make us a complete mess, that is not true. There are so many things here that are taking
29:21
time, that it's an improving country, you see it. If you've been here before, as you obviously
29:26
have been, you said that to me, and you've seen how it's developed since you were last here,
29:30
and from when you were young here, it's changed a lot. So yeah, whatever you go, whatever you do in
29:38
life, there's going to be a regrets, but you can't always look back. You have to look to this
29:42
you say, I've made decisions, this is where I'm going, and the question you asked me,
29:46
am I going to go home for good? I don't know yet. Okay, I just haven't made that decision,
29:50
but because it's good on both sides. So was there ever a day that you went to work,
29:56
and you thought, what the fuck am I doing here in this place? That happened most weeks.
30:02
Yeah, no, seriously. I luckily had two or three mentors, one of them I'll mention by name,
30:11
but unfortunately, passed away. That was Oliver Clark, and he was the chairman of Jamaican
30:17
National. He owned the Gleena newspaper, and he was one of the people who brought me here in
30:22
the first place. He was a mentor, a friend, someone I could go to, and talk to him, I just used to say,
30:30
what the hell am I doing here? Oliver, I just need to go now. He's just not going to work,
30:34
and he can't be down and say, no, you've got to do this, and you're doing the right thing. He was
30:38
such a fantastic man, and there were a number of the people like Oliver who I could go to in my
30:44
hour of knees and say, what the fuck am I doing here? And I calm down, and I think, no, we've achieved
30:51
this, we do that, and we move on. And I think the momentum that kept me here was certain individuals
30:56
like Oliver, but also I think more than that, the people here as well, the people, because I'm so
31:02
much support from just the man and woman on the street. That was that was the thing that kept me
31:08
here really, and it's kept me here still because they haven't forgotten it. That's and I find that
31:13
incredible, because I left in 2009, where in 2020, when you said that, I thought it was like the
31:19
other day. No, it was 2009, but people still treat me with a great deal of respect and admiration,
31:27
and I'm not saying that as a big headed, I'm just saying, I'm saying that that's how people make
31:33
me feel, and that's a real honour. Do you think that you had you stayed in, sorry, had you stayed in
31:40
the UK, you were clearly a higher ranking officer in the New Scotland yard, do you think that you
31:45
would have received the same respect, or is it because you initiated so much change?
31:50
I think it's because I was so different, because I came from UK, I was white, I'm from the UK,
31:55
so I was completely different here. Whereas in London, I was doing a great job, so maybe internally,
32:01
there were those of us who were doing a good job, and they'd always come to me and others and say,
32:07
look, this has come up, deal with it, which was always, I guess, an honour, because we did a good
32:12
job, but we were many fish in one tank, whereas here, I was a bit of an odd fish in a smaller tank,
32:19
so you could, I was sort of more visible. Sure. One of the times I was here on holiday, I was at
32:25
Iberia Star in Montego Bay, and there were lots of headlines, BBC, ITV, Sky News, and they were
32:30
saying that because there had been a state of emergency called in Saint James at the time,
32:35
they were reporting that the tourists were being locked in their rooms and were told not to go
32:39
anywhere, and I thought this was really strange, because I was here at the time, and so like,
32:43
I did an innocent video of me just all turn about to Montego Bay, and I thought this is really
32:46
weird, because I don't feel anything. That day I don't like interviews with all of them to
32:51
basically say that I think the way crime is reported in Jamaica is irresponsible, because,
32:57
of course, I'm not saying don't report crime, but a lot of times there's headlines that will blast
33:02
out that we're all scared to leave our houses, and I just wondered, do you ever feel like protected,
33:09
protective over Jamaica's reputation, because obviously you have an insider's perspective,
33:15
it's kind of like a word inside outside perspective. I am very protective in that way of Jamaica,
33:22
and I will protect it, and if anyone says I wouldn't go there, it's too dangerous, I'd say,
33:27
excuse me, where do you come from? Well, I'm from New York, I said, well, I won't go to the
33:30
Bronx quite honestly, because there are areas like that, there are areas in Birmingham,
33:34
and in the UK, there are areas in London, you do not want to go at night. The fact is that
33:40
most people come here, in fact, in terms of tourism, and business people visiting Jamaica,
33:45
when was the last time you heard about a tourist, or a business person being murdered here?
33:51
It happens, I'm not going to hide it, it's like, oh, it never happens, but let's look at the
33:56
proportionality of it. Most serious crime that happens in Jamaica happens within gangs.
34:03
It's gang on gang, it's the same in the United Kingdom, when you hear about knife crime,
34:08
look at the perpetrator, and look at the victim, they tend to be the same age group,
34:13
living in the same area, and that's where the crime is, but if you're going into London,
34:18
the worst thing that can probably happen is you're going to get your phone stolen,
34:21
because you've got these electric bikes down there, come along, you've got the bike and they'll
34:24
snatch it. Here, I don't, yes, there are robberies here, yes, my car has been broken into,
34:31
yes, people's houses get broken into, but it is not exceptionally bad compared with other places,
34:37
but in terms of violent crime, absolutely. I think the way women are treated here is a bit
34:44
different from the United Kingdom. In what way? I think the levels of sexism here,
34:55
but a bit greater in some ways, within certain communities. It's really interesting.
34:59
I think women, you imagine where we were say 20 years ago in the United Kingdom,
35:09
when you were from pastry, do you know what pastry of the sun would be?
35:11
Keir de Parade, right? Yeah, it would be topless women, where women were objectified,
35:19
that's the word, isn't it? I think to a degree, there's still a lot of that here, sexualised,
35:24
and I think we've got a long way to go to respect in women in some quarters here.
35:29
See, I find this deeply interesting, because I left Jamaica nine years ago and I go to England
35:36
and I open up my restaurant, and people will come in whether it's sales reps or, you know,
35:41
neighbours, and they're sending literal frozen fries. This is not a deeply intellectual
35:46
conversation, this is not like high stakes decision-making, and I would be sitting with a male
35:52
customer who's a friend of mine in my restaurant, and immediately the person comes and they
35:56
don't speak to me. They don't make eye contact because he must be the owner of the restaurant.
36:01
And I'm like, this is so bizarre, because again, you think first world, you think
36:05
advancement, and you're just like, what? And I've always said that my experiences here,
36:11
in terms of in business context, would always be ages, it would always be, I just come out of school
36:17
from New York, or it's like, we get some experience before you come and you want to make ideas.
36:23
But I always felt that the UK has been more sexist.
36:27
But then on the other hand, you see that I'll flip this argument now, because
36:31
when you look at most businesses in the country, in this country, and most senior positions,
36:37
they're run by women. Right. The majority of really responsible jobs, they're women.
36:44
And men here, for some reason, do not do as well at school. They drop out from schools.
36:49
The women go out to work. The women bring up the kids and the men for whatever reason,
36:53
do not appear to be able to stay with a woman. That breeds resentment sometimes,
36:59
and you can end up getting abuse and all sorts of other issues coming out.
37:03
Again, none of this is, you can paint one thing about everybody.
37:08
These are general things that we see, but there is a lot of that here, but as you mentioned,
37:15
you can also get in the United Kingdom as well.
37:17
Really interesting. Do you feel a part of Jamaican culture, or do you always feel like an
37:22
outsider? I 100% never feel like an outsider. I feel like an Englishman who lives in Jamaican
37:31
for 20 years and has been accepted. There will always be culturally, there will always be
37:36
differences. There are things that I wouldn't go to or see because it's not my culture.
37:42
Sure. I give you an example. It's a bit like going to church.
37:47
If you go to church and you're used to going to church and standing up and singing and dancing
37:51
and just having a good time, but it's still praise and worshiping everything else,
37:55
but on the other hand, you're used to going to an Anglican church where it's far more
37:58
conservative and you sit and you pray and you stand up, sing a hymn, sit down.
38:03
Some people like that and some people like that. I find that being in Jamaica,
38:08
the aspects, they're a bit like church, some are conservatives, some are not so concerned.
38:12
Sure. And we're making a point. Perfect thing. Oh, good. I might be talking gibberish,
38:17
but honestly, I understand what I'm saying. Hopefully your audience will.
38:20
So your daughter, Bixie, you Jamaican with an influence on British culture in your home?
38:26
What is that play on? That's very interesting. My daughter
38:31
has lived a whole life in Jamaica, but she has an English accent, although she goes to school
38:38
with Jamaican kids every day. She sees herself in some ways as English, not Jamaican. It's very
38:46
strange and I don't know why. I don't know why. She has a black father and a white father,
38:51
and she's brown, but she puts, well, she doesn't even put it on. She has an English accent,
38:58
and she doesn't understand Patoa, although she's later all in life.
39:02
Okay. And what school did she go to? She goes to a local school here, a little private school,
39:07
nothing special. She went to Hillel for a while, but that didn't work out.
39:11
Okay. Every time she's telling me that Hillel is not working, oh, that's where I went.
39:14
Why is Hillel not working on it? That's an interesting question.
39:21
I think you'd have to ask some of the other parents and kids that do go to Hillel,
39:25
but why did you take her out of Hillel?
39:28
I think there's a lot of peer pressure there in one way or another. There's a very strong,
39:32
as there is in many schools, there's a very strong cell phone, social media culture.
39:37
There's a level of cultural bullying that is not just Hillel, so I'm not having a dig at Hillel.
39:45
This is my many, many, many good things about Hillel. I thought it was a great school,
39:49
and I still think it's a great school, but it didn't suit my daughter. She needed to go to a
39:54
smaller environment, and she's getting a little better. When I went, the class size was like
40:00
17. Is this still relatively small class? Yeah, it's not about class size alone.
40:06
There are a lot of other aspects, and I think it's a bit like anything. Some kids will fit into
40:09
a big school and do well and thrive at Hillel, others won't. So I'm not criticising any particular
40:16
school. Because everyone that I've spoken to, everyone has had the same thing. Really?
40:20
That Hillel is not the Hillel that I went to. I've tried to set up an appointment, literally,
40:25
because I want to see. I think there is something, you know what,
40:30
opposite Andrew is like. If I could be honest, so this is probably a few people from
40:34
opposite Andrew, I hate you for this. But don't forget the kids here. They grow up in
40:40
an environment where there's a housekeeper and helpers, and there might be a cook.
40:44
There'll be a gardener. They've never washed a car. They've never ironed. They've never done
40:52
the washing up after a meal. And there is a scent from some from opposite Andrew, some but not all
41:00
of entitlement. There's a sense of entitlement. Well, I don't do that. I don't do the washing up.
41:06
I have a helper to do that. I've got guys of my age who I've been out with from Jamaica,
41:12
and they said, boy, Mark, you know, it was really tough because when I went off to Boston's
41:16
University, I didn't know how to use a washing machine. I've never pressed a shirt. I've never
41:22
pressed a shirt. And they had to learn all of that at the age of 18, 19, 20, because for their
41:27
whole lives, they've relied on that. So this scent of entitlement can actually go and transform
41:33
and transition itself into a school. So you go to school and it's almost like, well, don't know
41:37
my dad owns this particular company. Yes. And I'm his son and don't you speak to me like that?
41:42
Right. Whether that that was the sense of some of them or some kids from those earlys.
41:48
To be fair, I think I have one friend from for that reason. So that makes sense to me.
41:53
Yeah. I don't know if this is going where you want it to go in terms of.
41:57
No, I'm definitely just interested. Yeah. Yeah. Did you ever think about educating your daughter
42:02
in England? Some people have this perception that sending her away to boarding school.
42:06
Yeah. I couldn't have afforded that anyway. And I actually know I wouldn't have
42:10
disagreed with that because I think a part of education and growing that was to be with your
42:14
parents and with your family. And I don't think sending kids away is necessarily the right thing
42:18
to do. Okay. And I think if you look at the UK model and you look at some of the brutal people
42:24
that have come out of that sending the white to boarding school, people like Boris Johnson,
42:29
God knows who else and Jacob's Reese Morgan. Yeah. They're not normal. They were sent away as
42:36
these border boys at six, seven years old with a stiff upper lip. Yeah. And they're not well-formed
42:42
people. Yeah. They're not. If anybody was thinking about moving to Jamaica now, what would you say?
42:48
To say go for it. I think there are a lot of opportunities here. Come with an overmind.
42:56
No, it's going to be difficult. It's not easy to start a business here. Okay. There's a lot
43:02
of bureaucracy still. And then you've got to find the right people to do the job as well.
43:05
And one of my toughest things is finding people. Okay, interviewing people and getting the right
43:11
people into my firm to make it grow. Sure. Really tough. But I would say yeah, if you've got
43:17
an idea and you want to come here, then come. You speak like quite optimistic. Is it fair to say
43:22
you feel quite optimistic? Yeah. I'm an optimist. I'm an optimist. Or that's just you anyway.
43:26
No, I think it's partly me. Yeah. But I've been I think fit in balance. I've been pessimistic and
43:32
said about the downside. So I'm actually saying optimistically, yeah, I would I would still come
43:38
around and do what we can do. When you say the downside, I don't think that's pessimism. I just
43:42
think you're really from honest, stubble, negative side. Yeah, but I don't think that is pessimistic.
43:47
Well, your energy feels quite optimistic. So I was wondering if that is how you are with everything
43:53
or should I also feel hopeful and buy into your whole? It's probably a bit above. Yeah. I think
43:57
it's a bit above here. I'm an optimist and I probably would lead you astray from my optimism
44:03
and say, do this. Yeah, we're going to do that. We can do it. We can get there. That's that's me. Yeah.
44:10
But so it's not for the faint hearted. Going back to the beginning of of our conversation,
44:14
I said, people can come here and absolutely hate it. And so some people will come here and hate
44:19
it. And others come here and they absolutely love it. There are many people from Jamaica who
44:24
left a young age and go off and make their money in the United States and United Kingdom. They
44:30
might just be, you know, decide to be a bus driver. Sure. And they've made some money. They want
44:34
to come home. Others have gone off, created a huge company, want to come home. And they're
44:40
quite disappointed because it's not looking at Jamaica from the United States, from Canada
44:47
and the UK and visiting here now and again, it's not the same as coming back to live here.
44:52
And I think that sometimes the returning residents can be quite disappointed by what they see.
44:56
Sure. And in the past, it's been quite a dangerous thing as well. Quite a few returning
45:01
residents have ended up targeted and ended up as victims of crime. Okay. But you said in the past,
45:06
I'm hoping that that's better. I think it's slightly better, but it's not completely better.
45:10
Okay. So I would say to anyone that's thinking of coming back here, do your due diligence.
45:16
If someone has said I have a plot of land and I'm going to build a house for you,
45:21
then check that it is a plot of land that they have proper registration, legitimacy too. They can
45:27
sell it to you. Check that if you're giving money to that person to build the house that it's
45:32
legitimate. Sure. Because there are many people here who have lost thousands and thousands
45:37
of pounds or dollars through Ford. It's a big place for Ford. And personally, without work,
45:45
how do you think living in Jamaica for 20 years has changed you? That's the interesting question.
45:52
I have a few, but I don't think I've changed that much. Okay. I think I was already formed
46:01
in a particular shape in my first 45 years. So the next 20 years, I'm already that shape. Okay.
46:11
And so I might be in a little bit malleable, but I am what I am. Sure. I am the same person,
46:16
basically, that I was prior to getting here. I've had to adapt a little bit because I'm living
46:20
in a particularly a different culture. Although, as I said, I live in Stonia and to live in Hackney,
46:25
it's not that I haven't been involved in other cultures, whether it's Indian, Jamaican,
46:32
Jewish, whatever it is. I've always lived with lots of other people. I've always been that sort
46:37
of a person. I'm not particularly in a particular groove with my white people. So I'm quite happy
46:43
to live in a multicultural society. That's what I'm trying to say. Do you think that London is
46:47
multicultural? Absolutely. I don't. I think it's multicultural, but the reason I don't think it's
46:53
multicultural is because, again, coming from a Jamaican perspective, the first time I go to
46:57
boarding school, I'm 16. And at my boarding school, I realized that whenever I visited London,
47:04
the Indian community wouldn't really like talk to me. There was a weird tension, right? And
47:10
again, coming from Jamaica, where like my best friend is visually Indian. I come home and I said,
47:15
Steph, you're Indian. I know it might sound silly, but I never thought of him as Indian. He was just
47:20
my friend's step. And it was only through this weird interaction with Indian British people and
47:25
not feeling the sense of oneness that I realized that my friend is actually Indian, but I've been
47:29
brainwashed my whole life to be Jamaican first and then like your ethnicity. And so in my opinion,
47:34
London has many different cultures living and co-existing. But for example, my chef in London is
47:41
Brazilian. She speaks very little English because all of her friends, all of her community are just
47:47
Brazilian Portuguese and they don't. There's not a mixing. And for me, when I hear multiculturalism,
47:52
I feel like there's a mixing on oneness that I only observed in the UK for London 2012.
47:58
There was an energy of like one team, one vibe. I think it changed after 2016. But the point
48:05
that you've made is interesting because I give an example. My daughter, my big daughter,
48:09
she had a year out from University of Kent, which was Canterbury, and she went to the United
48:14
States for years. She went to the University of Miami for a year. And she said to me, she remarked
48:20
that sitting in the canteen, you had the Afro-Americans over there, you had the sort of,
48:29
the posh girls over there, and you had this group over there. And it was very much
48:34
segmented and cliquey. And you had to fit in with one of those groups. And I think that probably
48:40
is a representation of what society is like, that we tend to get drawn to our own to a degree.
48:45
But it is about a personality that wishes to embrace other culture,
48:51
to other groups, but it is very easy, very comfortable to be, say, white and middle-class
48:55
and living suffocoresics. And really mix with those particular people. It isn't really
49:00
until you get into London and you might live in Southwest London, where you're going to get black
49:04
people, Chinese people, Pakistan people, middle-class white people, whatever mixing together.
49:09
Do they mix two degree yes, but I accept your point. I think you're probably more right than me
49:15
in the people tend to stick to their own. I feel like you could have moved anywhere. You seem
49:20
like the type of person. Is that fair to say? It's not about the Jamaican. You could have
49:24
moved and been comfortable anywhere. Yeah, we lived in Germany for five years. Okay.
49:29
When I was in the police, I chose to go to Germany for five years. I was what they called
49:37
at the time of drug liaison officer, the DLO. And my territory was Germany, Poland,
49:45
and the rest of Europe. But it was Eastern Europe, that was. But except Russia, of course.
49:51
And I took that job because I've always wanted to travel. I like to travel. I like to experience
49:58
new cultures. And I thought the way I could do that and use my policing experience was to go
50:03
into that part of the service. So I was a DLO, a drug liaison for five years. I lived in just
50:09
outside Frankfurt. My office was in Frankfurt. I traveled extensively around Germany, Switzerland,
50:13
Poland, and really, really loved it. So I think I've always been a person who likes to travel,
50:20
likes to experience new culture, love food, love wines. So I guess that's just me.
50:26
And aside from headlines and all of these things, what would you think is the greatest
50:31
misconception about living in Jamaica or just day-to-day lives? That is full of criminals and
50:37
crime, and it's not a safe place to come. And unfortunately, the US State Department sometimes
50:45
preaches that as well. When you look at, don't go to Jamaica because it's an unsafe place. I think
50:49
that's practically unfair and unjust and unreal. I think, as I have mentioned already,
50:59
that many people come here, they spend time here, they don't get robbed, they don't get
51:03
raped and they don't get murdered. They come in over a good time because most Jamaicans,
51:06
they really embrace the fact that their tour is coming in because it keeps the light of going.
51:11
Then on the other hand, you could say that all inclusive hotels have diminished that
51:20
cross-versalization of people coming here, leaving that on cleave. Because when you go into one
51:26
of these all-inclusives, you could be in Mexico to Anakin Republic or Jamaica. Because you get
51:32
the rum, you get the wine to get this, you get the Michael Jackson look alike in the evening on
51:37
the stage and all the rest that goes with it. And it could be anywhere and you could stay there for
51:42
two weeks and leave and not actually experience the country. And even if you leave it by getting
51:47
onto a bus and going to Don River Falls, that isn't really seen Jamaica. But I've met other people
51:53
who have come to Jamaica, you haven't gone to an all-inclusive and have found their own way,
51:58
rented a car, stayed at various places, Airbnb's or whatever, and they found the wheelchair makes.
52:03
And they're safe, they've not been hijacked, they've not been robbed, raped and murdered,
52:07
and they've gone back and said Jamaica is a fantastic place.
52:09
How would you describe the real and Jamaica?
52:13
Fun, lovely and friendly, great music, love of sport.
52:18
I think there are the sort of things I would say, friendly, as I mentioned, friendly, opened.
52:27
Just a great vibe here, it really is, it's just a good vibe, people are generally speaking,
52:31
really nice people.
52:32
I have a few quick, fire questions for you. Tasty or juicy patty?
52:38
Juicy. But if I've got some money and a bit posh, it's probably Devon House.
52:42
Corrigor, patty, Edmund Holtz.
52:43
Yeah, exactly.
52:45
Exactly.
52:45
That's why I don't include it, because there's no competition.
52:49
Yeah, estrogen.
52:51
Deep for rum or red stripe?
52:53
Rum.
52:54
Deep for oxal or corrigot?
52:57
That's a both question, I love bones here, I love bones.
53:00
How are you on pepper, by the way?
53:02
I love it.
53:02
Yeah, you can handle sauce by it.
53:04
Yeah.
53:05
I can.
53:05
Deep for a yum or cassava?
53:07
Yum.
53:09
Interesting, and cane juice or coconut water?
53:12
Coconut water.
53:13
If you're in life with a postcard, describe the picture to me.
53:18
I just saw sunshine when you said that.
53:20
Oh.
53:20
I saw sunshine, I saw beach.
53:23
And just,
53:25
tranquillity.
53:26
That's how it'd been.
53:26
My postcard would be that.
53:27
Amazing.
53:28
Thank you.
53:28
That was the first of all the cancel lunch, so I hope that works.
53:32
Thank you very much.
53:33
You're welcome.
53:34
Thank you for having me.