Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Teen College Student Found Raped, Killed. Mother on Mission to Find Murderer.

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Teen College Student Found Raped, Killed. Mother on Mission to Find Murderer. · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. How does a beautiful eighteen
0:16
Speaker 1: year old girl the world in front of her, graduates
0:20
Speaker 1: from high school planning college, move in right across the
0:26
Speaker 1: street from her high school where she just graduates, a
0:30
Speaker 1: perfectly safe neighborhood, and then ends up not only raped,
0:36
Speaker 1: but murdered. To this day, no suspects And how is
0:40
Speaker 1: it we know the color of the killer's eyes, the
0:46
Speaker 1: color of his hair, what his face looks like, but
0:51
Speaker 1: we don't know who he is. How can that be?
1:00
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Like many parents, I thought
1:10
Speaker 1: this will never happen to me. She remembers how it started.
1:14
Speaker 1: And I opened the door to this young sheriff standing
1:16
Speaker 1: in the rain, and he had a piece of paper
1:19
Speaker 1: in his hand. He just quickly said to me, are
1:21
Speaker 1: you magazing? And I said yeah. He said, you need
1:23
Speaker 1: to call Tulsa Police. Your daughter has been murdered. She
1:26
Speaker 1: had left Brittany of voicemail days before, Britty, please call me.
1:30
Speaker 1: I know you're okay that I just need to hear
1:34
Speaker 1: from you. Next thing she knew, she's standing in Brittany's
1:37
Speaker 1: apartment swarming with investigators. Britty dropped the friend off at
1:41
Speaker 1: her apartment complex at fifty first Memorial. Britney drives home
1:46
Speaker 1: the last time her friends saw her. I think ahead
1:48
Speaker 1: and checked well being and find Brittany deceased inside her apartment.
1:52
Speaker 1: You're hearing her friends at kJ R A Channel two
1:55
Speaker 1: and Tulsa. How did this happen? And who is Brittany?
2:02
Speaker 1: A name that crime fighters all across the country. No,
2:06
Speaker 1: Brittany Phillips. Well, listen to this our friends at crime online.
2:11
Speaker 1: After graduating from Union High School, Brittaney Phillips is off
2:14
Speaker 1: to Saint Petersburg, Florida and Eckard College on a full
2:17
Speaker 1: chemistry scholarship. The eighteen year old gets homesick though, after
2:21
Speaker 1: one semester and decides to move back to Tulsa. Enrolling
2:25
Speaker 1: in Tulsa Community College, Phillips gets an apartment across from
2:29
Speaker 1: her high school. A full scholarship in chemistry. That's not easy,
2:35
Speaker 1: But what more do we know? What is her background?
2:39
Speaker 1: Take a listen to Vincent Hill kJ R eight. Maggie
2:43
Speaker 1: says she had her hands full when she had her
2:44
Speaker 1: second child, Brittany, so much so that she gave her
2:47
Speaker 1: this nickname accident because by the time she was three,
2:52
Speaker 1: I think she had been to the emergency room three times.
2:54
Speaker 1: As Brittany got older, Maggie says she worried for a
2:57
Speaker 1: different reason. She was the typical teenager running around with
3:01
Speaker 1: her friend. Brittany was a great student. She graduated a
3:05
Speaker 1: year early and headed off to college in Florida, but
3:08
Speaker 1: quickly became homesick. She decided at the end of the
3:12
Speaker 1: second semester to move back to Tulsa. Brittany enrolled at
3:17
Speaker 1: Tulsa Community College and got her own apartment in a
3:20
Speaker 1: location they thought would be safe where we had never
3:23
Speaker 1: heard about anything bad happening. So attached to home and
3:27
Speaker 1: family and mom, she gets so homesick even with a
3:31
Speaker 1: full chemistry scholarship, she moves back home to continue school.
3:36
Speaker 1: Listen to Jackie Howard at Crime Online. On September twenty seventh,
3:40
Speaker 1: Phillips plays chauffeur for a friend, taking them home, and
3:43
Speaker 1: then she talks to her mom on the phone. Over
3:46
Speaker 1: the next couple of days, mother, doctor Maggie Zingman, calls
3:49
Speaker 1: her daughter to no answer. Getting worried, she leaves a
3:52
Speaker 1: message to be immediately contacted. Zingingman is not the only
3:56
Speaker 1: one who's worried during the same period of time. Phillip
3:59
Speaker 1: smiss is a appointments and classes. One of her friends
4:02
Speaker 1: requests the Tulsa Police Department do a wellness check on
4:05
Speaker 1: Brittany Phillips. A wellness check when you call police to
4:08
Speaker 1: just go literally check on a person you're worried about
4:12
Speaker 1: with me and all Star panel. Joining us John wu
4:17
Speaker 1: Dial PI lawyer out of Winter Park and he's the
4:21
Speaker 1: author of the method Proven Techniques for Winning Jury Trials
4:25
Speaker 1: at johnwdel dot com. Doctor Bethany Marshall, psycho Analysts to
4:30
Speaker 1: the Stars, Joining us out of Beverly Hill. She's the
4:33
Speaker 1: star of a new hit series Bleeding Empire on Netflix.
4:36
Speaker 1: Founder director of the Coldcase Research Institute. Joining us today.
4:40
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, forensics expert. You can find her at Coldcase
4:43
Speaker 1: Crimes dot org. Doctor Kindall Crowns, the Deputy Chief Medical Examiner,
4:49
Speaker 1: Chaves County, Texas. That's Austin lecturer, University Texas and Texas
4:54
Speaker 1: A and M and Faculty, a University of Texas Medical
4:57
Speaker 1: Branch special guest Share a Little Point. Genetic genealogist, author
5:02
Speaker 1: of the gene Hunter spelled g E n E and
5:06
Speaker 1: founder of gene hunter dot com. And Nicole Parton Crime
5:10
Speaker 1: online dot Com investigative reporter on Twitter at Nicole Parton.
5:14
Speaker 1: But first I want to go to a special guest
5:17
Speaker 1: joining us, doctor Maggie Zengman. This is Britney's mother, trauma psychologist.
5:26
Speaker 1: You can find her at Brittany Phillips Murder dot nett.
5:31
Speaker 1: You may also find her under Caravan to Catch a Killer. Maggie,
5:38
Speaker 1: thank you so much for being with us. Thank you
5:40
Speaker 1: so much for this voice and for all these exports
5:43
Speaker 1: to give in Putt. I mean, this is such a
5:45
Speaker 1: gift for me. Really, you know, Maggie, I feel the
5:48
Speaker 1: same way when I speak to you, because you are
5:52
Speaker 1: if they had a picture in the dictionary beside perseverance,
6:00
Speaker 1: it would be you. Thank you your devotion and your
6:04
Speaker 1: iron will to bring justice for Brittany. It's really unlike
6:10
Speaker 1: anything I've ever seen. And I know I've asked you
6:13
Speaker 1: this before, Maggie. Doctor Maggie, tell me what happened when
6:20
Speaker 1: you got the at your door. Well, of course I
6:24
Speaker 1: was not expecting forage, some young sheriff to be sitting
6:27
Speaker 1: out there. And when his words, you know, came out
6:31
Speaker 1: all your Maggie thing, then you know, I thought, oh,
6:34
Speaker 1: maybe she maybe she was involvement in a crash. Now,
6:38
Speaker 1: maybe something happened, but I didn't expect the next words,
6:42
Speaker 1: which were quick and then he left words, your daughter's
6:45
Speaker 1: been murdered. You need to call to Felton. That calls
6:48
Speaker 1: the police department, you know, And that was just I mean,
6:53
Speaker 1: anybody who's ever been given those words? I mean I
6:55
Speaker 1: just felt confused, I felt shocked. I just oriented, didn't
7:00
Speaker 1: know what to do, and of course didn't want to
7:03
Speaker 1: believe it. Wanted to believe that, oh that just have
7:06
Speaker 1: identified somebody wrong. And doctor Bethany Marshall joining us psychoanalysts,
7:10
Speaker 1: I know that feeling. I mean, you know doctor Bethany's
7:14
Speaker 1: I've told you I thought it. I knew it all
7:16
Speaker 1: about grief and mourning when my fiance was murdered. But
7:23
Speaker 1: now that I have children, Doctor Bethany, I mean, I
7:26
Speaker 1: can't even really begin to comprehend what doctor Maggie Zingman
7:31
Speaker 1: has gone through. What is that immediate reaction. I mean,
7:35
Speaker 1: when I look back on the moment I learned something
7:38
Speaker 1: horrible had happened to Keith, it doesn't really even seem
7:41
Speaker 1: real to this day, doesn't seem real, like maybe looking
7:47
Speaker 1: back on it's like I'm looking at a movie or
7:50
Speaker 1: a clip of something just didn't seem like it was
7:53
Speaker 1: happening to me. Like doctor Maggie just said, what is
7:56
Speaker 1: that human response called nancy. It's hard to even describe.
8:02
Speaker 1: It's so disorienting. You're in one reality for years, you
8:10
Speaker 1: give birth to a child, you or in your case,
8:13
Speaker 1: with your fiance, You meet somebody, you fall in love,
8:18
Speaker 1: you have a relationship, You are imagining a whole future,
8:24
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden your mind has to
8:27
Speaker 1: accept a new reality that that is all gone. Or
8:30
Speaker 1: you have a child and you know, as you know
8:33
Speaker 1: when you had John David and Lucy Debt, your their
8:39
Speaker 1: whole well being is dependent upon you, and you're the
8:43
Speaker 1: course of your life is forever altered. You are thinking
8:46
Speaker 1: about their birth day, at school and braids and homework,
8:52
Speaker 1: and when they'll go off to college, get married, when
8:55
Speaker 1: you'll have grandchildren, and then all of a sudden, that's gone.
8:59
Speaker 1: I mean, the fact that the mind has to be
9:01
Speaker 1: in one reality and then in another. It's so disorienting.
9:07
Speaker 1: Is not even the right word. It's something that takes days, months,
9:13
Speaker 1: years to even accept. And this young sheriff came to
9:18
Speaker 1: doctor Maggie's door and just said it so matter of factly,
9:25
Speaker 1: and her whole life course was altered in that one minute.
9:29
Speaker 1: It's hard to describe, but I think it's your brain
9:34
Speaker 1: having to wrap its your mind wrapping itself around a
9:38
Speaker 1: new reality that you have to do it in one minute,
9:41
Speaker 1: but it really takes years to undergo that process. Time
9:58
Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grain. Guys, we are talking about the
10:03
Speaker 1: brutal rate and murder of a gorgeous young girl, a
10:10
Speaker 1: teen girl, beautiful on the inside and the outside, a
10:15
Speaker 1: case that is still unsolved. Won't you help us? Take
10:22
Speaker 1: a listen to our friends at crime Online. A late
10:26
Speaker 1: night knock on the door woke doctor Maggie Zingman. On
10:29
Speaker 1: the other side of the door a homicide detective with
10:31
Speaker 1: the Tulsa Police Department. When the police perform their welfare check,
10:35
Speaker 1: they find Philip's moody on her bed and clear evidence
10:38
Speaker 1: of a struggle in her room. Police say it is
10:41
Speaker 1: evident that Phillips tried to fight her attacker. It's thought
10:45
Speaker 1: that at one point the killer slammed her against the wall.
10:48
Speaker 1: The medical examiner determines Phillips has been raped and strangled.
10:53
Speaker 1: Her estimated time of death is between nine pm on
10:56
Speaker 1: September twenty seventh and eight am on September twenty eight
11:00
Speaker 1: to John W. Dill, veteran trial lawyer or PI lawyer
11:05
Speaker 1: out of Winter Park, at John wdel dot com. You know, John,
11:09
Speaker 1: you and I both tried a lot of cases, and
11:14
Speaker 1: of course me as a criminal prosecutor, you on the
11:17
Speaker 1: civil side. And I've noticed and I'm wondering if you
11:21
Speaker 1: have two and for instance personal injury cases or wrongful death,
11:26
Speaker 1: the victim's family sometime even at trial, have not really
11:31
Speaker 1: absorbed what has happened. And I blame part of that
11:35
Speaker 1: on the fact that they haven't really had a time
11:40
Speaker 1: to absorb it, to reconcile with it, because until the
11:45
Speaker 1: purpose put behind bars and the civil cases are over,
11:50
Speaker 1: you've been constantly like picking at a scat or a
11:53
Speaker 1: wound or ripping the stitches out of a suture, and
11:58
Speaker 1: until that is done, you can't heal. And the trial
12:04
Speaker 1: process and the investigation just prolongs it. John. Absolutely, I
12:08
Speaker 1: find that even in cases where somebody is on trial
12:12
Speaker 1: or there's a responsible party, that pending thing that continues
12:16
Speaker 1: to go on until there's there really isn't any closure
12:19
Speaker 1: that's probably the worst term people used. But until that
12:22
Speaker 1: process completes, there's no way for it to be that
12:26
Speaker 1: chapter to be at least addressed and put behind them.
12:29
Speaker 1: So that's that's a very real thing that happens throughout
12:31
Speaker 1: the entire prices in criminal answers to Deputy Chief Medical
12:35
Speaker 1: Examiner Travis County, Texas has Austin doctor Kendall Crowns. Doctor Crowns,
12:40
Speaker 1: that t D time of death is not really helping
12:43
Speaker 1: me that much. Did you hear that? That's a span
12:46
Speaker 1: of what did they say, Cheryl McCollum, from like eight
12:49
Speaker 1: pm to five am? Some attenuated open window. What did
12:57
Speaker 1: they say, cheryls from nine pm own September twenty seventh
13:02
Speaker 1: till about eight am the next day, doctor Kendall Crowns.
13:06
Speaker 1: For peace's sake, all those years in medical school, that's
13:10
Speaker 1: the best you can give me. It's not like that
13:13
Speaker 1: on TV, Crowns. Sure, it's sure, isn't Right? Before I
13:19
Speaker 1: go answer your question, I just want to say that
13:22
Speaker 1: I am sorry productor thing them bloss and it's it's
13:25
Speaker 1: hard for to hear a parents talk about the laws
13:28
Speaker 1: of their child, but thanking. But we'll move on to
13:33
Speaker 1: the science now, which makes me far less emotional. But
13:37
Speaker 1: so trying to give a time of death is very
13:39
Speaker 1: difficult because bodies decomposed at different rates. The books will
13:45
Speaker 1: tell you you know the body decomposed, there's set things
13:49
Speaker 1: that happened at set times during during the day or
13:53
Speaker 1: during the process and decomposition. But the problem is no
13:56
Speaker 1: one decomposes under ideal circumstances. So if you've exercised, if
14:02
Speaker 1: you've used drugs, if you've at the particular way you
14:06
Speaker 1: died was particularly violent, these will all speed up the
14:10
Speaker 1: decomposition process. And then also if you're in a cold
14:14
Speaker 1: environment or you don't have a lot of muscle masks,
14:17
Speaker 1: they'll slow down the decomposition process. So because of all
14:20
Speaker 1: those factors, it's very difficult to give an evact time
14:24
Speaker 1: of death. So that's why we give a range, Doctor
14:27
Speaker 1: Kettle Crowns. Can't you take the temperature of the body,
14:33
Speaker 1: compare it to the ambiance temperature in the room and
14:38
Speaker 1: calculate how many hours have passed based upon the temperature
14:44
Speaker 1: of the body the coolness of the body. So there
14:47
Speaker 1: has been attempts to do that, but the science behind
14:51
Speaker 1: them has found that it's not all that accurate. And
14:54
Speaker 1: the other problem is that the body will start matching
14:59
Speaker 1: the ambient picture. So if it's a warm environment, the
15:01
Speaker 1: body might become warmer. And it is just difficult. Those
15:05
Speaker 1: those formulas have actually been found to not be all
15:08
Speaker 1: that accurate. Okay, that's why you're the MD and I'm
15:11
Speaker 1: the JD. Okay, what about following the victims food and
15:16
Speaker 1: finding out at what point the food is digested? I mean,
15:20
Speaker 1: to which point the food has been digested based on
15:24
Speaker 1: the last known meal. Yeah. Again that there's no way
15:27
Speaker 1: to definitively tell the exact time frame that the digestion
15:32
Speaker 1: can occur, and digestion can be altered and changed for
15:36
Speaker 1: different people, so it isn't accurate science again, and there's
15:42
Speaker 1: no way to do a case study on that, you know,
15:46
Speaker 1: have eight people eat food and then determine what their
15:49
Speaker 1: summit contents where. So again, the science there's just not
15:55
Speaker 1: something you can hang your at. You know what, doctor
15:58
Speaker 1: Kendall Crowns, I don't like anything you just said because
16:02
Speaker 1: it's not helping me. It is not helping me nail
16:06
Speaker 1: down a time of death. It's well, that's an interesting that.
16:10
Speaker 1: You know, most bea the law enforcement they will get
16:13
Speaker 1: very frustrated with that answer. And I am right now
16:17
Speaker 1: years that's correct. And the problem is that I can't
16:20
Speaker 1: give you an accurate estimate because the science shows that
16:24
Speaker 1: you can't give an accurate estimate. And if I am
16:27
Speaker 1: just safe you, oh that's three hours, four hours, it
16:30
Speaker 1: potentially wrongfully convicts someone that will not actually involved. So
16:35
Speaker 1: you've got to go with the science. You can't you
16:37
Speaker 1: can't make stuff up. And because if someone guilty, they're guilty,
16:40
Speaker 1: but you can't make someone guilty. That's not take Let
16:44
Speaker 1: me have you stick with Madison, okay, because nobody's trying
16:48
Speaker 1: to convict an innocent person. So you're going way way way.
16:52
Speaker 1: You're way out of line, Crowns. Let me just put
16:55
Speaker 1: that out there and before you can say anything back,
16:57
Speaker 1: take a listen to this. On October first, two thousand
17:00
Speaker 1: and four, doctor Maggie Zeman's world came crashing down. That
17:04
Speaker 1: is when she learned her daughter, Britney Phillips, had been murdered.
17:07
Speaker 1: The eighteen year old chemistry major at TCC was brutally
17:10
Speaker 1: attacked in her apartment. The DNA profiles of thousands of
17:13
Speaker 1: men have been compared to the DNA that was found
17:15
Speaker 1: at the crime scene, but so far no match has
17:18
Speaker 1: been found. Zengman has dedicated her life to traveling the
17:21
Speaker 1: country and raising awareness about Britney's case. Crime stories with
17:38
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace circling back to doctor Kendall Crown's if you
17:44
Speaker 1: had just left it at that's the science and that's
17:49
Speaker 1: the truth, I would have understood that. But then when
17:51
Speaker 1: you go on to say you don't want to convict
17:53
Speaker 1: an innocent person, nobody even said that. Where did you
17:56
Speaker 1: get that? But I will say I do respect what
18:00
Speaker 1: you said. I don't like it, but I respect it.
18:03
Speaker 1: It's just it reminds me Cheryl McCollum when I have
18:06
Speaker 1: a crime victim and they want to go forward, especially
18:11
Speaker 1: in a sex assault case or child molln station, but
18:14
Speaker 1: the statute of limitations has passed. I don't like it,
18:18
Speaker 1: but that's the law. That is the law in many
18:21
Speaker 1: jurisdictions is there's not a darn thing you can do
18:23
Speaker 1: about it. So sometimes I don't like what Crowns says,
18:29
Speaker 1: but it's true, which leads me to you, Cheryl McCallum,
18:34
Speaker 1: founder director of the Cold Case Research Institute. Did you
18:37
Speaker 1: hear what they just said? kJ R? H Channel two
18:41
Speaker 1: TULTSA that there were thousands of men compared to a
18:48
Speaker 1: DNA profile. Explain to me, oh oh, and remind me.
18:51
Speaker 1: I want to circle back to Crowns about if you'll
18:54
Speaker 1: still talk to me about how we know they think
18:58
Speaker 1: she was slammed up against a wall and then a raped.
19:01
Speaker 1: It was done. We know that she was raped. How
19:04
Speaker 1: do I know she was raped and there was not
19:06
Speaker 1: consensual sex? Believe me she was raped. And he's going
19:09
Speaker 1: to tell you how we know that. I want to
19:11
Speaker 1: circle back to him on that while he nurses his wounds.
19:14
Speaker 1: But Cheryl McCollum, you on the DNA it was compared
19:18
Speaker 1: into CODIS and in that system they are literally don't
19:22
Speaker 1: use anachronisms, Okay. CODIS is the combined DNA index system.
19:32
Speaker 1: Combined DNA index system, that's CODIS. And explain how CODIS
19:40
Speaker 1: fits into this case, Chryl. They have put the suspects
19:43
Speaker 1: DNA into that system and literally, you know, cross checked
19:48
Speaker 1: it with every single convicted felon that has got their
19:52
Speaker 1: DNA in that system. Every rapist, every murderer. They've cross
19:56
Speaker 1: checked it. Of the DNA samples that we have. There's
19:59
Speaker 1: no mach joining me. Right now. Crime online dot Com
20:02
Speaker 1: investigative reporter Nicole Parton. Nicole, thank you for being with us.
20:08
Speaker 1: Let's just go back to the beginning. Tell me about
20:11
Speaker 1: what happened that we know of to Brittany Phillips. So
20:15
Speaker 1: what we know is that Brittany had finished up a
20:18
Speaker 1: pretty typical Monday, leaving her community college there in the evening,
20:23
Speaker 1: dropping a friend off at her home, and then making
20:26
Speaker 1: that mill or so trip to Brittany's own apartment. That
20:31
Speaker 1: was the last time Brittany was seen when she dropped
20:33
Speaker 1: her friend off a mile or so away, she gets
20:36
Speaker 1: to her apartment, she gets upstairs. She lives in the
20:39
Speaker 1: second floor, second story apartment. And that's all we know,
20:44
Speaker 1: and that's why we have that timeline of sometime between
20:47
Speaker 1: nine pm and then eight am the next morning, when
20:50
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, Brittany is not showing up for
20:53
Speaker 1: her classes, and that's when her friends become concerned. We
20:57
Speaker 1: know that she left college, We know that she dropped
21:00
Speaker 1: her friend off, We know she made that mile or
21:02
Speaker 1: so drive home, got into the house, and beyond that,
21:06
Speaker 1: we don't know what happened. You know, doctor Maggie Zingman,
21:09
Speaker 1: this is Brittany's mom one mile drive. What could happen?
21:16
Speaker 1: And the time she drops her friend girl off and
21:20
Speaker 1: then she gets in her apartment. Was somebody in her car?
21:26
Speaker 1: Was somebody stalking outside of her apartment? Was somebody in
21:30
Speaker 1: her apartment? One mile? That's all she had to make
21:35
Speaker 1: one mile home, Doctor Maggie, I know, I know, and
21:40
Speaker 1: it's been crushing that it was in those first eight
21:44
Speaker 1: years of the detective. I mean they were looking at
21:47
Speaker 1: I think she was also at an urgent care. I
21:51
Speaker 1: mean that's where I had talked her before she took
21:54
Speaker 1: up her friend home and she couldn't get in to
21:57
Speaker 1: see the doctor. And so we don't know if somebody
22:00
Speaker 1: alter from there, if somebody I think they found out
22:03
Speaker 1: that she went to Bank of America ATM because they
22:09
Speaker 1: found receiat from that. We don't know if somebody was
22:15
Speaker 1: waiting there. The very first day that I met Detective
22:19
Speaker 1: Felt and he went into her closet. But have you
22:21
Speaker 1: ever seen this? And it was a communal entry into
22:25
Speaker 1: the attic for all the four upstairs apartment, so I
22:29
Speaker 1: know they looked up there for evidence. So we don't
22:31
Speaker 1: know if he was there or there was about to
22:32
Speaker 1: me that people could hike up on. So I mean,
22:36
Speaker 1: there's all these multiple things that could have happened. Let
22:40
Speaker 1: me go back doctor Maggie's Englan. This is Britney's mom.
22:46
Speaker 1: What did you say about a communal entry to the
22:50
Speaker 1: attic that sourced out of Britney's closet. Yeah, out of
22:54
Speaker 1: all four closets, of all the fourth apartments and in
22:58
Speaker 1: that whole complex. And so that means anybody getting into
23:03
Speaker 1: the attic, you know, for service or I discovered that
23:07
Speaker 1: you could climb on the outside stairs and get yourself
23:09
Speaker 1: up onto the roof, and I think there was a
23:12
Speaker 1: common entry up there, you know, so we wonder if
23:16
Speaker 1: somebody was waiting in there. So they looked at a
23:19
Speaker 1: lot of you know, customer service people, cable guys exactly,
23:24
Speaker 1: telephoning guys, yeah, maintenance, all those things. Wow, you know,
23:29
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollough, right, when you think you can start narrowing
23:34
Speaker 1: down your substate pool, then you get a rent in
23:39
Speaker 1: the works. That communal entryway is one of the things
23:44
Speaker 1: that to me, nightmares are made of the idea that
23:47
Speaker 1: her doors can be locked, her windows are locked, there's
23:51
Speaker 1: no fourth entry. How did they get in there? And
23:54
Speaker 1: then you discover there's a secret door in a closet
23:58
Speaker 1: that could have been access by seven different apartments, and
24:03
Speaker 1: the roof. As we are talking about a brutal rape
24:06
Speaker 1: and murder of a teen girl, her mother, doctor Maggie
24:11
Speaker 1: Zengman with us today, who has been on literally a
24:15
Speaker 1: quest for justice to find the killer. There is a
24:20
Speaker 1: six thousand dollar reward. The tipline is nine one eight
24:25
Speaker 1: seven nine eight eight four seven seven repeat nine one
24:28
Speaker 1: eight seven nine eight eight four seven seven. And I
24:32
Speaker 1: will never forget when I met doctor Maggie, and when
24:36
Speaker 1: I saw her van. Have you ever seen if you've
24:40
Speaker 1: been in Vegas, I know you've seen it. You mean,
24:42
Speaker 1: I like what you see. But they shrink rap Practically
24:46
Speaker 1: every car that goes by in Vegas is shrink wrapped
24:49
Speaker 1: with an ad usually for a strip bar, but they're
24:53
Speaker 1: always bright, bold colors. You can't help but look at it.
24:57
Speaker 1: Her whole van is shrink wrapped. Trying to find Brittany's killer.
25:05
Speaker 1: Take a listen to our friends at Channel two told
25:07
Speaker 1: police say there were signs of an altercation before she
25:10
Speaker 1: was raped and strangled to death. All I could think
25:13
Speaker 1: of was how long she was heard? How long she
25:16
Speaker 1: was dead? Investigators tested DNA from the scene. Any kind
25:20
Speaker 1: of crimes that are even remotely similar we're looking into,
25:24
Speaker 1: but came up with nothing. Doctors ingman's final goodbye to
25:28
Speaker 1: her daughter through a blanket. I basically had pat her
25:32
Speaker 1: head as I always had say goodbye her. I just
25:36
Speaker 1: rubbed my finger down her nose and just and I
25:41
Speaker 1: just said, I'm sorry, Brettie, and I'm sorry this happened.
25:44
Speaker 1: I'm sorry I didn't protect you. I'm sorry, said they
25:47
Speaker 1: won't even let me touch you. You know, it's probably
25:51
Speaker 1: the case. I spend most of my time on police
25:53
Speaker 1: figured the murderer could be anywhere. You know. Hearing you speaking, Doge,
26:00
Speaker 1: it makes me want to rip off this mic and
26:04
Speaker 1: this earpiece and get in my mini van and get
26:09
Speaker 1: to my children right now and just look at them
26:14
Speaker 1: and make sure they're okay. Because you had done everything
26:17
Speaker 1: you could possibly do to protect Brittany, and to hear
26:24
Speaker 1: that you had to kiss her goodbye through a blanket.
26:29
Speaker 1: What does that mean? Well, you know, it's something both
26:34
Speaker 1: the way I was told how she was killed, and
26:36
Speaker 1: then they took the body, they identified her by her license.
26:41
Speaker 1: It didn't let me see her and identify her. And
26:43
Speaker 1: that was the funeral director who said, well, she's been autopsy,
26:48
Speaker 1: so we don't think you should be because you's me
26:53
Speaker 1: too shocking. And you know, back then I didn't have
26:55
Speaker 1: a voice. But later on, when I was working with
26:57
Speaker 1: OSBI said, you know, we're already shocked. One thing you
27:00
Speaker 1: need to do for families is you need to allow
27:03
Speaker 1: them to make you know the decision, you know, And
27:07
Speaker 1: I didn't know I had that voice, and so you know,
27:11
Speaker 1: basically I was just following what I would cold. You know,
27:14
Speaker 1: since then, I've taught a lot of police departments and
27:17
Speaker 1: bureaus that you know it, this can add trauma to
27:20
Speaker 1: the already trauma that they're going through, you know, doctor
27:23
Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, there's a lot of schools of thought regarding
27:25
Speaker 1: whether you should see your loved one's dead body. I
27:29
Speaker 1: didn't want to see my fiance's and from that point
27:35
Speaker 1: on I would be plagued with nightmares, and when I
27:39
Speaker 1: would try to see him, I would always see in
27:41
Speaker 1: the dream like a zipped up body bag, or i'd
27:44
Speaker 1: hear his voice and look for him, but I couldn't
27:47
Speaker 1: see him. So not seeing a dead body can have
27:53
Speaker 1: a lot of effects. You would never even contemplate, whereas
27:56
Speaker 1: seeing a dead body then you've got that image in
27:58
Speaker 1: your head the rest of your life. So Nancy, yeah,
28:02
Speaker 1: what's the answer. It's such a complex question that you're asking.
28:08
Speaker 1: I mean, it depends on the individual family member and
28:11
Speaker 1: how they grieve. And doctor Mackey, what do you think?
28:16
Speaker 1: I mean? Was it helpful? Was it not? What do
28:19
Speaker 1: you think? No? I think I agree. You know, for Nancy,
28:23
Speaker 1: the choice was not to For me, I really wanted to.
28:27
Speaker 1: And part of my way I've survived the seventeen years
28:31
Speaker 1: is I haven't only thought about myself, but because I'm
28:35
Speaker 1: a toronal and psychologist. I was in twenty years now
28:37
Speaker 1: it's thirty five years. But you know, I've just talked
28:40
Speaker 1: to thousands of families and it's that lack of choice,
28:44
Speaker 1: I think, or this you know, sort of bias that
28:48
Speaker 1: you know, we granted I you know, I have a
28:50
Speaker 1: different background, but it really didn't help me in those
28:53
Speaker 1: first days, and so a lot of things that affected
28:55
Speaker 1: me strongly. I'm now trying to say, you know, it
28:59
Speaker 1: has need to choice because so much of your life
29:02
Speaker 1: is out of control, that that was just one more
29:06
Speaker 1: thing that was out of my control. She was taken
29:08
Speaker 1: from an apartment before eating. You know, it's interesting, doctor Maggie.
29:11
Speaker 1: If I did it over, I would have gone to
29:16
Speaker 1: see his body, if I could make the choice over.
29:19
Speaker 1: And when my dad passed away, knowing what I then knew,
29:23
Speaker 1: I never left his body ever. Everybody else left, they
29:26
Speaker 1: can started cleaning out the room, and I stayed with
29:29
Speaker 1: him until the very end. So I think you're right.
29:47
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Guys, I want you to
29:51
Speaker 1: take a listen to our friends at crime Online. Over
29:54
Speaker 1: seventy swabs of potential DNA are collected at the scene,
29:58
Speaker 1: including blood and semen, least believed from Philip's killer. The
30:02
Speaker 1: DNA is uploaded to kodas. I want to speak to
30:05
Speaker 1: a very special guest joining us. It's Shia LaPoint, the
30:10
Speaker 1: gene hunter. Shia, listen to our cut ten Fox twenty
30:15
Speaker 1: three Police. We're able to get DNA of Brittany's killer
30:18
Speaker 1: at the scene, but that DNA has been sitting through
30:22
Speaker 1: the years until now, when long awaited technological advances have
30:26
Speaker 1: finally time. Sergeant Shane Toole says. Recently, pera bond nano
30:31
Speaker 1: labs use the DNA to come up with a phenotype report.
30:34
Speaker 1: They can narrow down to a very good certainty of
30:38
Speaker 1: hair color, freckles, ethnicity, and it ultimately led to this
30:43
Speaker 1: computer generated picture. Zengman says she now has new hope
30:47
Speaker 1: of having a visual possibility. You know, it's opening a
30:51
Speaker 1: big door because it's not just going to be some
30:54
Speaker 1: theme or some idea that somebody's kind of tempason. It's
30:58
Speaker 1: going to be the way the person out to Cheryl LaPoint,
31:02
Speaker 1: genetic genealogist, author of The gene Hunter, So you can
31:07
Speaker 1: tell me the guys hair color, whether he's freckles, his ethnicity,
31:13
Speaker 1: so much about him. But basically, I've got a picture
31:17
Speaker 1: of him, I've got his DNA, but I don't know
31:19
Speaker 1: who he is. What is that genetic genealogy gives leads
31:23
Speaker 1: to law enforcement to help figure out who the perpetrators are.
31:29
Speaker 1: We have DNA in this case, Nancy, they had seventy swabs.
31:34
Speaker 1: In my experience, when you have multiple samples of DNA,
31:41
Speaker 1: which sample do you use to work to find the
31:46
Speaker 1: answers to take his DNA? Put it in the sights
31:50
Speaker 1: that genealogists use like JED match, family tree, DNA and
31:55
Speaker 1: DNA solved. How do you make that decision? Normally, it's
31:59
Speaker 1: a collaboration between law enforcements and the labs that process
32:03
Speaker 1: the DNA. In that case, that's what was done and
32:08
Speaker 1: this was given to Parabond. They processed the DNA, they
32:14
Speaker 1: got the result, they have a picture, and that given
32:18
Speaker 1: to law enforcement for them to investigate. But just when
32:24
Speaker 1: we think we've got the killer, devastating news. Take a
32:29
Speaker 1: listen to our friends at Channel six KOTVS. They found
32:33
Speaker 1: DNA on the scene from Semen that matched off of
32:36
Speaker 1: a slight small sample of blood, So the DNA being
32:42
Speaker 1: two sources from the same person, logically they thought that
32:45
Speaker 1: was the killer. The DNA from the scene was used
32:49
Speaker 1: to create a composite sketch of what the suspect might
32:52
Speaker 1: look like. We've got protectives say. One of them compared
32:55
Speaker 1: it to the DNA from the scene and it was
32:57
Speaker 1: a match, And for a brief moment they thought they
33:01
Speaker 1: finally had their killer, until they talked to that man
33:04
Speaker 1: and others and learned of his whereabouts at the time
33:06
Speaker 1: of the murder and determined he was not the killer.
33:09
Speaker 1: After all, the whole that I had learnt to live
33:12
Speaker 1: with in my heart, it's just opened and it bled,
33:15
Speaker 1: and I was just overwhelmed. She and police had penned
33:19
Speaker 1: their hopes on that DNA from the scene, but since
33:22
Speaker 1: that is no longer the case, they now know nothing
33:25
Speaker 1: about who did this. He could be African American, Hispanic, Polynesian, German,
33:31
Speaker 1: he could be anyone too, Doctor Maggie Zigman, this is
33:35
Speaker 1: Brittany's mother. How can that be? DNA is taken from
33:38
Speaker 1: the scene and it's not the killer, I know, I mean,
33:43
Speaker 1: and that's I think initially why it was those shocked,
33:46
Speaker 1: you know, when we went through that whole genetic at
33:49
Speaker 1: analysis with Cecymore and that direct hit led to somebody
33:54
Speaker 1: who was not our killer. I mean, when I found
33:57
Speaker 1: out you know who it was, it sort of made
34:00
Speaker 1: But it's just being very confusing. Why was his DNA
34:04
Speaker 1: at the scene, That's what I don't understand. Yeah, one
34:07
Speaker 1: of Brittany's friends stayed over and with her boyfriend, and
34:12
Speaker 1: the semen was found on the chief. So the semen
34:16
Speaker 1: at the scene of the rape and the murderer belonged
34:20
Speaker 1: to Brittany's friend's boyfriend. Do I understand that? Correctly? Correct? Correct? Well,
34:26
Speaker 1: Cheryl a point genetic genealogists. Yeah, the science down, but
34:31
Speaker 1: the wrong circumstances. What about the DNA taken from Brittany's body?
34:37
Speaker 1: My question exactly, Nancy, if you had seventy swabs and
34:45
Speaker 1: you have sixty nine more chances to figure out exactly
34:51
Speaker 1: who this person is, I have hope. I do have
34:56
Speaker 1: hope in this case that other samples can be process
35:00
Speaker 1: and we can do setting biology. Well. I don't understand
35:04
Speaker 1: the hold up, Sharyl. The point I agree with you,
35:06
Speaker 1: Sharyl McCollum. What's the problem. Why can't we use the
35:10
Speaker 1: other the other swabs, DNA taken from Brittany's body. I'll
35:16
Speaker 1: tell you right now, Nancy. They need to go back
35:18
Speaker 1: to zero one, and they need to do the rape
35:21
Speaker 1: kit again, the sheets, the pillow cases for clothing, reexamine
35:26
Speaker 1: everything again, get the sheets out and do the end
35:30
Speaker 1: that across everything, not just swabbings and cuttings, do the
35:33
Speaker 1: whole thing, and then submit the new things as well
35:37
Speaker 1: as the old swabbings. Every single thing needs to be
35:41
Speaker 1: tested in this case. What is the hold up, Maggie.
35:44
Speaker 1: Why aren't they trying the same process with the DNA
35:48
Speaker 1: taken from her body, not off her sheet? I know,
35:51
Speaker 1: I know, and they dad put shot maybe five or
35:54
Speaker 1: six other profiles up in Todas. But for the last
35:57
Speaker 1: four years I and Sharyl's aware of it. I have
36:01
Speaker 1: been pushing and pushing for them. Are they using the MVAC.
36:05
Speaker 1: Are they have? They reanalyzed the rape kit and the detective,
36:10
Speaker 1: the left detective who just retired. You know, I was
36:14
Speaker 1: saying asking for coldcake investigators, and he was saying, we
36:17
Speaker 1: don't need it, said he cast the um way to
36:21
Speaker 1: do it. So it's not making sense to me. No,
36:24
Speaker 1: you're saying, use the MVAC on the sheets and re
36:28
Speaker 1: examine the swabs. But doctor Kendall Crowns the swabs taken
36:33
Speaker 1: from her body, from her vagina, from her skin, from
36:38
Speaker 1: wherever semen was found, that is secured under a slide
36:44
Speaker 1: in perpetuity. Why can't we use that for DNA? Why
36:49
Speaker 1: do we have to go back to the sheets and
36:50
Speaker 1: vacuum them. We've got the DNA, so I mean, if
36:54
Speaker 1: you've put it under a slide, you've processed it and
36:56
Speaker 1: probably stained it, and you you image the quality of it.
37:01
Speaker 1: So that thought why they're going back to get a
37:04
Speaker 1: better sample from what they were doing. Is that possible?
37:08
Speaker 1: Years later? Yes, actually there there was a case in
37:11
Speaker 1: Chicago when I worked there that it was a bunch
37:14
Speaker 1: of people were murdered at Brown's Chicken and they didn't
37:17
Speaker 1: have suspects for years. But what the officers did at
37:20
Speaker 1: the time was they packaged some of the food in
37:23
Speaker 1: the trash, and years later they tested a chicken bone
37:27
Speaker 1: and were able to get DNA from that. And then
37:29
Speaker 1: they had a presumptive person that was telling friends that
37:33
Speaker 1: he had been involved in it, and then they brought
37:35
Speaker 1: him in did a DNA match and it was like
37:37
Speaker 1: over a decade later they matched it from DNA gotten
37:42
Speaker 1: gotten from a chicken bone. That's incredible. So it can
37:47
Speaker 1: be done, and the DNA is preserved. It's not all
37:50
Speaker 1: put under a slide. So you know, I hear you,
37:55
Speaker 1: doctor Maggie, and I hear you Cheryl McCollum. Yes, I
37:58
Speaker 1: wanted all retest, I want the VAT, I want it all.
38:02
Speaker 1: But what I'm saying is the DNA is readily available
38:07
Speaker 1: for cheryla Point or someone like cheryla Point on the
38:11
Speaker 1: genetic the gene hunter to go in and retest it.
38:16
Speaker 1: So parabon and tested as well. I mean they tested
38:20
Speaker 1: one swab. Parabond could still run on these others and
38:23
Speaker 1: from illegal standpoint, just Sean Deal speaking, yes, ma'am, I'm
38:26
Speaker 1: sorry from illegal sam point. I was just going to
38:29
Speaker 1: ask you go ahead, you go ahead, go ahead. No,
38:32
Speaker 1: I'm just saying from they can certainly Parabon can run
38:35
Speaker 1: those swabs among the genetic population, get a composite from
38:40
Speaker 1: that in which that those composites can lead to the
38:44
Speaker 1: identification in a DNA match. But additially, from a kind
38:47
Speaker 1: of illegal stand point, you've excluded somebody else that DNA
38:53
Speaker 1: was on the scene. So whoever we find next doesn't
38:56
Speaker 1: have a reasonable doubt as to who's this other person,
39:00
Speaker 1: essensifully as an alibi. So it seems that the information
39:04
Speaker 1: is there to be gleaned out by Parabon and investigators.
39:07
Speaker 1: She would hope, you know, John Deal, what do you
39:09
Speaker 1: have to do put a little fire under their rear
39:13
Speaker 1: end to get them to test the other DNA. What
39:16
Speaker 1: do you have to do, John Well, I think you
39:18
Speaker 1: have to have a podcast and get the word out
39:20
Speaker 1: and put some put some pressure on them, because it's doable. Again,
39:23
Speaker 1: there's some expense involved that Parabond runs these constantly. It's
39:27
Speaker 1: not a you know, overwhelming cast for them. I think
39:30
Speaker 1: I hear Cheryl jumping in, is that you or Sharon?
39:34
Speaker 1: That it was Shara, And I was going to add
39:37
Speaker 1: the fact that cost is a huge factor in these case.
39:41
Speaker 1: How much does it cost to perform a test like
39:43
Speaker 1: this and why can't it be done at the state
39:45
Speaker 1: crime lab? Cheryl appoints um Nancy, it can actually be
39:50
Speaker 1: done at any lab that does this kind of work. Um, again,
39:55
Speaker 1: there's a private lab that does crowdsource funding to work
39:59
Speaker 1: these kinds of since wow, authorum, what authorum? Doctor middleman,
40:07
Speaker 1: doctor middleman? Yes, yes, yes, what about that possibility, Maggie.
40:13
Speaker 1: I was able to obtain some funding almost two years ago,
40:18
Speaker 1: and with the detective that has since retired, it seemed
40:21
Speaker 1: like the paperwork was being held up. It wasn't being
40:24
Speaker 1: sent to the chief, so I kept going after them,
40:28
Speaker 1: talking to them asking when it was to happen. They
40:30
Speaker 1: kept telling me it was in process, and finally, about
40:34
Speaker 1: three months ago I talked to the chief and I
40:36
Speaker 1: costomed new detective, Detective Styles, and they said they were
40:41
Speaker 1: processing the paperwork, and about two months ago it hadn't
40:45
Speaker 1: been signed. But about a month ago I was told
40:48
Speaker 1: by Detective Styles that the paperwork was done and the
40:53
Speaker 1: samples that they had chosen to send off had been
40:56
Speaker 1: sent off. You know, I don't know why the delay
41:00
Speaker 1: was on the paperwork. It just seemed like it took
41:03
Speaker 1: a lot longer than it should have, you know, since
41:05
Speaker 1: I got the funding over two years ago. It just
41:10
Speaker 1: seemed like a lot of things were stalled with the
41:12
Speaker 1: case with the past detective, I don't know how soon
41:17
Speaker 1: I'm going to get results. I had planned to, you know,
41:20
Speaker 1: give it a month or so before one. I've I've
41:24
Speaker 1: been trying to communicate with detective style of asking him
41:27
Speaker 1: if he knows how long it'll take, and then I
41:30
Speaker 1: tend to also contact the company to just sort of
41:33
Speaker 1: follow up on how things are going. So, you know,
41:37
Speaker 1: I'm hoping that you know, I know it probably depends
41:41
Speaker 1: on caseload, and I can see that they're working on
41:44
Speaker 1: a lot of cases now and everything, but I'm hoping that,
41:48
Speaker 1: you know, something gets done, you know, within a six
41:52
Speaker 1: month period. I'm also trying to get them to analyze
41:57
Speaker 1: all the old evidence with new type of procedures like
42:01
Speaker 1: the m back or touch DNA, And I was told
42:04
Speaker 1: at the argument analyzed some of the old evidence with
42:07
Speaker 1: the touch DNA. You ways to pick up DNA that
42:11
Speaker 1: we didn't have seventeen years ago. Let me remind everyone
42:15
Speaker 1: there was a six thousand dollars reward. Britney's mother, to
42:20
Speaker 1: this day is searching for her daughter's killer. Nine one
42:25
Speaker 1: eight seven nine eight eight four seven seven is the
42:28
Speaker 1: tipline we wait as justice unfalls. Nancy Grace Crime Story,
42:32
Speaker 1: signing off goodbye friend,