Latest / Masculine Containment / 30 - The Breakdown That Saved My Life: Rebuilding Marriage, Fatherhood, and Self-Trust (with George Weber)

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30 - The Breakdown That Saved My Life: Rebuilding Marriage, Fatherhood, and Self-Trust (with George Weber) · Masculine Containment

• 0:02
  Welcome to the Masculine Containment Podcast and another member interview, one that I've been particularly excited for.
• 0:09
  Today, I have the honor, the privilege of interviewing George Weber, who was a member of our second container, who was on the calls, participating in our group, and really had a lot of interaction in the brotherhood, and I'm excited for you to hear from him.
• 0:25
  George, thank you so much for being here today, brother.
• 0:28
  Thank you.
• 0:29
  Yeah, thanks for having me, Alex.
• 0:30
  I'm glad to be here.
• 0:31
  It's such an honor.
• 0:33
  So, George, you know, I think what a lot of men are going through is like there's a lot of similarity with what you were experiencing before the brotherhood and what a lot of men are feeling today.
• 0:44
  Can you take us back to what was going on in your life before you joined the brotherhood and kind of share a little bit with us?
• 0:51
  Absolutely, absolutely.
• 0:54
  So this last year and a half has been quite the whirlwind.
• 0:58
  So I have been an entrepreneur for, I don't know, since 2015.
• 1:03
  So what is that, 11 years?
• 1:06
  And right now I'm working in building infrastructure for messaging, branding, marketing.
• 1:12
  But for the last 10 years...
• 1:14
  Before this year, I've been in fitness.
• 1:16
  I've been in personal training studios.
• 1:19
  We ended up capitalizing on the market shifting towards semi-private personal training.
• 1:26
  You know, this last year, though, to put it lightly, my personal, emotional, mental health, spiritual, it all crumbled.
• 1:39
  So we grew very rapidly.
• 1:43
  There became things within my marriage, then within the business that, to put lightly, was very misaligned.
• 1:52
  And one of the biggest things that drew me to you, Alex, was I started seeing your posts on Facebook pop up.
• 2:02
  And so where I was at was this last year, I experienced things I've never experienced before.
• 2:08
  I'm almost 36.
• 2:10
  And at the time, I was 35.
• 2:14
  And I was breaking down weeping for hours.
• 2:18
  I was collapsing on my studio floor, unable to move.
• 2:24
  Like, I'm telling you, before last February it was, so what is it, May of 26?
• 2:29
  Before last February, I probably would have been that guy who was all Jocko Willink, Extreme Ownership.
• 2:37
  You know, there's no such thing as depression.
• 2:39
  You're just not taking on as much, you know, enough responsibility.
• 2:42
  You know, my wife and I had been married 11 years.
• 2:44
  We had five kids in six or seven years.
• 2:48
  We had gotten up to seven studios.
• 2:50
  I think we touched for one month.
• 2:52
  The highest we touched was $130K a month.
• 2:55
  Built it from nothing, starting with, you know, like a tax return back in 2018.
• 2:59
  Yeah.
• 3:01
  And so I had always had this worldview of just do more, take on more, achievement, momentum, all of the things.
• 3:09
  We worked with your company back years ago, Simple Operations, and we scaled considerably.
• 3:17
  But ultimately, my way of relating, whether it was to my wife or life in general, was,
• 3:22
  just created so much both subconscious and then conscious anxiety.
• 3:27
  It created an anxious energy.
• 3:29
  I just couldn't handle it anymore.
• 3:31
  And so where I was at, my wife and I separated for 20 days in 2025 back in June of last year because of a really aggressive outburst by me.
• 3:47
  You know, the language we use in the container is rupture.
• 3:50
  But at the time, like I would have just said, I lost my shit.
• 3:54
  Again, I was never a guy that I was always the calm one in the relationship.
• 4:01
  But for whatever reason, this last year, it all changed.
• 4:04
  I started just losing it.
• 4:06
  And so finding your posts surrounding this thing that I didn't really understand, nervous system regulation, you know, because from June, it got worse.
• 4:18
  It got so much worse.
• 4:19
  I came back in the home and it was August when suicidal ideation started really grabbing hold of my spirit and my soul and my emotions.
• 4:29
  And yeah.
• 4:29
  And it all led to September 29th and 30th.
• 4:34
  I put my hands on my wife and I pushed her.
• 4:39
  I pushed her hard.
• 4:40
  I'm a big, strong guy.
• 4:42
  She's a very small woman.
• 4:44
  And September 29th, after that, and then the next day, I attempted suicide two days in a row.
• 4:51
  And so that changed my entire world in the matter of those two days.
• 4:56
  I, from that point, I think there were six weeks of absolutely no contact.
• 5:00
  I didn't work.
• 5:01
  I didn't see my wife.
• 5:02
  I didn't see my kids.
• 5:04
  I was lucky she didn't press charges.
• 5:05
  I didn't.
• 5:07
  I went to countless hours of therapy.
• 5:10
  I did ketamine-assisted psychotherapy sessions.
• 5:15
  I went to an off-site program for two weeks in November, an intensive, a Christian-based two-week intensive of therapy where we did three or four hours of therapy a day.
• 5:25
  It was the darkest season of my life.
• 5:28
  The suicide ideations got much better as far as they started going away.
• 5:32
  I started making progress.
• 5:33
  I started making progress.
• 5:34
  But then I get back and in December, I start seeing my wife again after pretty much two months of no contact.
• 5:42
  And that's when I came across your post.
• 5:46
  And so where was I?
• 5:47
  I was at the lowest point in my life.
• 5:49
  I've always been the all-state football player, college football player, high achieving, wake up at 3 a.m. five days a week to work hard.
• 5:58
  You know, and honestly, it was working.
• 6:01
  Right.
• 6:01
  And a wonderful wife, five beautiful kids.
• 6:04
  My kids were doing incredible.
• 6:06
  They're 10, 8, 7, almost 6, almost 4, and just wonderful kids to be around.
• 6:11
  Yeah.
• 6:13
  The business was, you know, my passion.
• 6:15
  It was what we were working on for years and years.
• 6:18
  But the nervous system, the containment and my inability to hold containment was destroying my life.
• 6:26
  It was destroying my life.
• 6:27
  I could not figure it out.
• 6:29
  The traditional therapies, the marriage counseling, the individual therapy, there was something like this was the first time that I had heard.
• 6:37
  Quite a bit of what you were talking about.
• 6:39
  And so where was I?
• 6:41
  I still remember reaching out to you and actually being shocked.
• 6:45
  I think so highly of you, Alex, that I'm like, you're going to get on a call with me?
• 6:49
  Are you kidding me?
• 6:50
  But I was at this place where...
• 6:52
  Not only was I willing to try anything, you were actually somebody I really trusted because of your simple operations company.
• 7:00
  When you say, I spent the last several years committing myself to this, I knew you were serious.
• 7:06
  Like, I know you well enough from listening to your other podcasts, from being involved with your companies.
• 7:14
  And from watching you over the years, you do not mess around with this kind of thing.
• 7:19
  And so that really intrigued me.
• 7:21
  And that's ultimately what got me started was just horrible dysregulation and lack of containment and not being able to figure out through traditional learnings anywhere of what the heck to do.
• 7:36
  George, first, thank you so much for sharing so transparently, man.
• 7:40
  It's a lot.
• 7:41
  It's a lot.
• 7:42
  And I appreciate you putting yourself out there because I don't know if you remember this.
• 7:46
  I think there was a call in the container where suicidal ideation came up and I asked a simple question of everybody who was there and said, okay, so how many of you, like, let's get real about this.
• 7:57
  How many of you have experienced suicidal ideation?
• 8:00
  Raise your hands.
• 8:01
  And do you remember almost every single hand in the container went up?
• 8:05
  Yeah, I do.
• 8:07
  I remember that vividly.
• 8:09
  I think this is one of those things that is...
• 8:12
  abjectly terrifying to talk about because it creates so much noise and so much reaction and so much judgment.
• 8:21
  But take us back to that time if it's okay, George.
• 8:24
  Like what was going on for you?
• 8:26
  What was the thought process?
• 8:29
  You know, I know when I've experienced that in my life, I'm not going to say I've ever, you know, I'm not going to say I've never experienced it.
• 8:36
  It's happened to me more than once.
• 8:39
  It's this feeling of abject hopelessness for me.
• 8:42
  What did it feel like for you?
• 8:43
  Or it was this feeling of abject hopelessness.
• 8:45
  What was it for you?
• 8:47
  So I can still remember, I think as a side note, and this is again for listeners out there who haven't, um,
• 8:58
  either have experienced it, but haven't necessarily broached in depth with others.
• 9:05
  I've read a couple of books since then, just from going through this as a side note, it was very interesting to experience, not just personally, but there is a whole spectrum of how other people believe about suicidality.
• 9:22
  And, and at the time,
• 9:26
  It felt like there was a lot of, it took me some time to have compassion for the way my wife used to view suicidality.
• 9:37
  Just in terms of me struggling was a very real threat to employees, to family, to my wife, to my kids.
• 9:45
  Like I had a lot of responsibility.
• 9:47
  And so...
• 9:48
  What I can tell you about what I felt, I just want to make that side note because like that's totally normal for people to have responses to suicidality.
• 9:56
  So many different responses that may be really big challenge, may even feel like a betrayal, may even be may even feel like, you know, I'm not trying to do this.
• 10:07
  The thing that my wife said to me was like.
• 10:10
  How you are trying to murder my husband.
• 10:13
  And like it just like couldn't wrap my head around that.
• 10:16
  But that's it's true for her.
• 10:17
  Like that's how she felt.
• 10:18
  And it is true.
• 10:19
  Right.
• 10:20
  The thing I can remember was the first moment I went through the it was probably two hours.
• 10:26
  I wrote the letter.
• 10:27
  Yeah.
• 10:28
  But the whole time I was weeping, I was dry heaving on and off.
• 10:33
  There was something deep in my gut as far as what I felt, what was coming out.
• 10:38
  It was like a sort of paralysis, and yet I was dry heaving.
• 10:42
  I was like weeping, just kind of ugly crying.
• 10:44
  I remember being in my office.
• 10:47
  Um, and what it felt like to me as I've done a ton of work in therapy, there were, there are these parts of me.
• 10:56
  There was just, there's a very, very young part that felt worthless.
• 10:59
  There's a very young part that, that felt like,
• 11:04
  hey, ultimately, this is what's best for your wife and kids, that they would get that $2 million policy to figure out a way to end your life, not have it be ruled as premeditated suicide so that your wife could cash in on that.
• 11:20
  That's the best option and the only option moving forward.
• 11:24
  Beyond that, my reflection is, again, this came from many, many hours and months of therapy, was that
• 11:33
  I can remember the moment when my mom told me, she told me, you know what, I got to a point with your father that I felt dead inside.
• 11:46
  And this is relevant in that as I revisit the place.
• 11:51
  that brought me to sitting on the overpass while drinking Modelo limes and smoking, you know, black and mild natural jazz.
• 12:02
  I can remember the smell.
• 12:04
  I had drank an entire bottle of NyQuil, and I was sitting there for 45 minutes.
• 12:10
  The thing that comes back to me is when my mom told me she felt dead inside and that she needed to be out of her marriage,
• 12:19
  a very significant piece of that for me and the worthlessness was i blamed myself for that there was a part of me that knew i could have stood up for my mom the in the way my dad treated her growing up especially as i got to be a big strong football player in high school i knew and again this was me putting this kind of weight and pressure on myself
• 12:42
  that no child should be responsible for.
• 12:46
  But I still knew that I felt that, that I knew in my head, if I would have stood up for my mom more, maybe she wouldn't have had to get to that place of just feeling dead inside.
• 13:00
  And yet at the same time conflicted because if I would have stood up to my dad, who already was emotionally and spiritually absent,
• 13:09
  It was like I knew his wrath would turn on me.
• 13:12
  And I so desperately wanted my dad, my dad's involvement.
• 13:17
  You know, what I like to say is like what I've realized is 11 to 25.
• 13:21
  I don't have, I maybe have one memory with my dad.
• 13:24
  I don't, but he was in the house.
• 13:27
  but I don't have a memory with my dad.
• 13:28
  And there's many, many reasons for that on all sides.
• 13:31
  But so walking through that type of, let's say, origin story and realizing there are parts of me that...
• 13:40
  That is a big reason for the feeling of worthlessness, for the other things that we uncovered through my therapy.
• 13:49
  And so, but yeah, again, to then take that next step, what was so fascinating to me was the physical response and manifestation and the carrying of that trauma.
• 14:01
  And what happened?
• 14:04
  I just kept asking, like, what the hell is going on with me?
• 14:07
  What is wrong with me?
• 14:08
  Because I'd never experienced this stuff before.
• 14:12
  And it either led to numbness or dry heaving or weeping or breakdowns or blowups.
• 14:19
  And it just shattered.
• 14:21
  It shattered, of course, my image that I had projected in my mind of who I was to the world.
• 14:26
  you know, I'm supposed to be this strong Christian man who takes care of his five kiddos who, you know, runs the world and, you know, just growing businesses and all these things.
• 14:36
  And, and it just all crashed down, man.
• 14:38
  And so it took very long time to get out of that.
• 14:42
  And, and the other thing too, though, is what I'd say is, you know, as I'm healthier than I've ever been in my life, I'm so convinced of that.
• 14:50
  And yet it's not completely gone away.
• 14:54
  The thing
• 14:57
  often since I came across it in January is Mark 5.
• 15:01
  There's a woman who bled for 12 years and it said she spent all the money she had and she worked with a great many doctors, but she grew worse and didn't grow better.
• 15:12
  I've always known Jesus to be a healer, the healer, my healer.
• 15:16
  And yet I'm at so much peace being in the 12 years.
• 15:21
  I'm at so much more peace and
• 15:24
  as I improve my containment, you know, through what, what we were able to do, that it's okay to be able to experience peace and joy and presence while not like, like feeling still like there's a lot of struggle.
• 15:38
  Right.
• 15:39
  And so, you know, that darkness already, I would say, um,
• 15:46
  I really believe it was God's mercy to bring me through this last year and a half.
• 15:52
  So that, I mean, I'm telling whether it's compassion or empathy, but just the bodily experiences, like I really believe it truly has created in me on the other side of that new levels of groundedness and containment that I don't, I just don't believe would ever be possible if not for just the depths of, of what I personally experienced.
• 16:16
  George, when you look back at that time in your life, you know, you use the word momentum.
• 16:23
  And, you know, for years when I was in a crowded room and somebody would say the word momentum, people would look at me because it was like this –
• 16:30
  this thing that I told everybody they had to have.
• 16:32
  And, you know, I was, I was very similar to what you described of like extreme ownership and do more and add more and you can always do more.
• 16:39
  And, you know, when you look back at those types of thoughts, those, that philosophy of like do more, be more, more momentum, more money, more growth, more, all that stuff.
• 16:51
  Like, how do you reflect on that now given what you've been through?
• 16:55
  Yeah.
• 16:56
  Yeah, no, I so appreciate you asking this question because I have.
• 17:00
  I've had a lot of time to think about this.
• 17:02
  Yeah, so...
• 17:08
  One of my strong reflections is learning at a very young age the kind of attention that achievement and hard work garnered me.
• 17:19
  I was the kid who was in the advanced ensemble choir, but also in the AP classes and then also on varsity, you know, as a freshman, sophomore in high school.
• 17:30
  And at a young age, I created this way of relating
• 17:36
  on top of personality traits of being charismatic, being able to work a room, being able to just things.
• 17:43
  I love people.
• 17:46
  And I think back to it and there's a sense of...
• 17:51
  these giftings that God has gifted me with, but then moving towards or straying into over-functioning, over-functioning to where image became super important, over-functioning to where achievement was super important.
• 18:08
  And yet I'm reflecting, and one of the biggest things I would say since January, since being in the container, Alex, is...
• 18:19
  I just never would have, I would have always said that I was not an anxious person.
• 18:26
  Even come January, I knew I had gone through darkness and depths and depression and just suicidality.
• 18:34
  But when we started incrementally just committing to small practices and then stacking those in just a really tangible way,
• 18:45
  I started experiencing less anxiety as I define it than ever before.
• 18:53
  And I think the way I've come to define anxiety and this life that I produced that produced such high levels of anxiety is like,
• 19:03
  My mind racing at a thousand miles an hour, whether I know it or not.
• 19:08
  I'm constantly thinking about, well, you know, as an entrepreneur, how can I spend more time with my five kids while also getting everything done with the business?
• 19:17
  How can we grow the business while still achieving more freedom as an entrepreneur?
• 19:21
  How do I pour into my wife and my marriage?
• 19:24
  But then also it's like we have work things that we're talking about.
• 19:27
  There are so many things that can consume you, especially as an entrepreneur.
• 19:35
  that as I stepped further along the spectrum into just allowing the business to control my emotions and my spirit, allowing the way my wife thought about me, I was incredibly codependent on my wife and I was not okay if she was not okay with me.
• 19:52
  I just had a life that was so driven by anxiety and that experiencing less of it and less of it and less of it has brought so much freedom.
• 20:04
  And so my reflection is, you know, it's been 35 years until I really dug into the origin story.
• 20:15
  I just always thought of myself as like, man, I feel like, or like my wife even used to say it.
• 20:20
  She would be like, well, at least your struggle is...
• 20:25
  working too much and not alcohol because like you're taking good care of our family and i you know which sounds nice until it all comes crashing down and i really i want to be super clear on this like i was horrible to my wife i i would say like i just even when i didn't blow up i had a disease of the thumbs i would send the nastiest text messages and
• 20:53
  And so it would come out like that.
• 20:55
  And for her, you know, Alex, I haven't said this yet, but after 230 days starting September 29th, it's been 11 days now that we're back together living in the same home.
• 21:08
  Such a blessing.
• 21:09
  Congratulations, George.
• 21:10
  Oh man, I'm so relieved to hear that, brother.
• 21:12
  Only 11 days.
• 21:13
  And it's been slow going.
• 21:14
  Like we just worked our way into it.
• 21:16
  Like we said, slow is fast.
• 21:19
  But like, but seriously, like, it's hard to describe, you know, both and Alex, maybe other people who are listening or this resonates with you.
• 21:30
  But like one of the one of the challenges I have is like, how do I take full ownership while also I need help?
• 21:40
  Right.
• 21:40
  It's like, am I sick?
• 21:42
  But I'm not going to use that to blame it on my behavior.
• 21:46
  And so how much of it is like, no, take radical ownership.
• 21:50
  Yes.
• 21:51
  And also I need help.
• 21:53
  Like, I don't know what's going on right now.
• 21:56
  And I don't know if anybody else feels like that, but that's what I felt for the longest time is like, this is not me.
• 22:02
  Don't even recognize myself.
• 22:05
  Anyway, so I don't know if that resonates or you've heard that before, but it's like that's been a huge challenge, I would say.
• 22:13
  Absolutely, George.
• 22:14
  You know, I think we talked about this in the container.
• 22:19
  You know, the dogma of radical responsibility and just make one more call, do one more thing every day, pack your calendar, sit down, strap yourself to your desk, like all of that stuff creates this level of nervous system instability that we don't understand until the day where it takes over.
• 22:37
  And, you know, one of the things I share with men all the time is asking for help is not giving up.
• 22:43
  Asking for help is actually refusing to give up.
• 22:46
  And I think so many of us have this, you know, I've talked about this for over a decade with entrepreneurs.
• 22:52
  Asking for help is the most terrifying thing we do.
• 22:55
  Because in asking for help, you're making the admission you need it and you're imperfect and you don't have it all together, which is terrifying.
• 23:03
  every one of us, you and I included, have asked for help throughout our lives and it's gone unheard.
• 23:08
  You know, when we were younger, there was times where we were overlooked or not heard or not seen, not validated.
• 23:14
  And so we grow this defensiveness towards asking for help.
• 23:20
  And, you know, what I aspire to do in the brotherhood is normalize asking for help and normalize struggle and normalize how difficult this is.
• 23:30
  You know, I'd like to
• 23:32
  bring you to the point, you kind of mentioned it already.
• 23:34
  You saw some posts and you came to the brotherhood.
• 23:37
  Tell me about the decision to join the container.
• 23:39
  Tell me about the decision to come into the brotherhood.
• 23:42
  Yeah.
• 23:43
  So the thing that stands out to me, Alex, is as we were discussing and chatting and as I was learning more about this, again, it felt like never before
• 24:01
  ever heard people talking about
• 24:06
  there's a certain intersection and combination of things that you're bringing to light that landed better and more deeply than I had seen from anybody else.
• 24:17
  I had been to counselors who were like, just, you know, essentially try harder, you know, grit your teeth type thing, right?
• 24:24
  I got no problems with that kind of thing, right?
• 24:27
  Most of us don't.
• 24:29
  Right.
• 24:30
  It's like, okay, like what now?
• 24:33
  There was the aspect of,
• 24:36
  Okay, there's still this massive misunderstanding, but you were brave enough to bring to light this biological piece, this like power.
• 24:46
  I had always, Alex, I had always wondered, why is it that I feel like I can come down off this?
• 24:55
  But it like, it's been building up for years with my wife.
• 25:00
  To the point where it's like, okay, the next pressure has been...
• 25:05
  I feel like I can never screw up because it like, or like you feel that pressure, but where was I?
• 25:11
  I just started learning about these different aspects of containment, I would say, um, that I had just never heard before.
• 25:20
  And then when you, the intersection of it all, um, was really what hooked me.
• 25:26
  I had to know.
• 25:29
  because I'm such a logic.
• 25:30
  I had to know, well, I'm learning about this through him, but like, now what do I do?
• 25:37
  And so this was like, well, this is what I do.
• 25:40
  And what I do is I expose myself to these learnings further.
• 25:44
  I engrossed myself in this community and I start to see, it wasn't even like a, oh, is this going to work?
• 25:53
  It very much was like a,
• 25:55
  I really believe that anything he's going to be bringing forth will help me incrementally in the long term, gain more groundedness and more access to especially.
• 26:08
  Right.
• 26:08
  What I was interested in was the reactive, the in the moment, that moment that rupture could occur or you could take a breath.
• 26:19
  You've blown your top.
• 26:20
  You could either get some space or hold your ground or, you know, like the reactive.
• 26:28
  That is what I wanted to learn more about because I'm like, why is it that I'm reacting like this?
• 26:33
  This is wild.
• 26:35
  And then the next step integrations was a game changer.
• 26:39
  But at the same time, it's like, so what did I come across that intrigued me?
• 26:45
  Is that it was different.
• 26:47
  It was different.
• 26:48
  And very, again, misunderstood.
• 26:50
  Oh, my goodness.
• 26:51
  Like, I had to within the first month, Alex.
• 26:55
  You know, if Jacqueline comes across this, I love you so much, Jacqueline.
• 26:58
  And...
• 26:59
  She heard about, I shared about the containment work.
• 27:04
  And this is just an example of misunderstanding.
• 27:06
  It's like, she's like, oh, so you basically, it was like, you hired another business coach to solve our marriage.
• 27:13
  Because, right, she and I worked with you with Simple Operations.
• 27:17
  And so from that point on, I've continued to work on containment and just haven't spoke about it.
• 27:22
  I'm not going to say, well, thank goodness for my containment, whatever.
• 27:26
  Like, you know, that really got me through this last day with you.
• 27:30
  Like, no, like I'm not, I'm just not mentioning it at all.
• 27:32
  Like, and I'm just saying, okay, how can I increase my capacity and containment?
• 27:38
  And so that's what ultimately just made me be like, man, I think I can trust Alex.
• 27:42
  I think I need to learn more about this.
• 27:46
  So you mentioned this earlier, and I want to share this with the listeners.
• 27:49
  You know, you said as you stepped into the practices in the brotherhood, and I want to make it clear, like there is no magic here.
• 27:56
  This is simple, practical.
• 27:58
  You know, we have three basic practices that we all –
• 28:02
  Add to our daily lives in the brotherhood.
• 28:03
  There's hydration, making sure you're drinking water that calms the nervous system.
• 28:08
  Walking without electronics, like taking a 20-minute walk and laying down and taking time in neutral.
• 28:14
  It doesn't have to be called meditation.
• 28:15
  It's just time in neutral, covering your eyes and laying there for 10 minutes.
• 28:19
  It's about as practical and easy as you can think of.
• 28:22
  But George, tell us, you know, you said those practices really started to change things for you.
• 28:26
  Tell us what changed and what did you start noticing?
• 28:29
  How did you start feeling doing these very, very simple things?
• 28:33
  Yep.
• 28:35
  So what I started thinking of as I went through the container was almost like a function of, and this was my experience as well, was like, okay, right now I'm experiencing a low level of capacity to be able to hold containment.
• 28:56
  I'm working on that through therapy, but what if I could little by little increase that capacity?
• 29:04
  And what things could I do to structure my day?
• 29:11
  Again, on my end, like,
• 29:15
  You know, I had a sabbatical in like the worst way.
• 29:19
  Right.
• 29:20
  Like I would have loved to sell my company and have a sabbatical or take it on the back end of a win.
• 29:27
  But I was forced to take a health sabbatical.
• 29:30
  So I had time and I wanted to be constructive with it.
• 29:33
  But I was, you know, I don't want to watch movies all day.
• 29:35
  I didn't want like I didn't have much to do.
• 29:38
  And I just knew I had this, I was going to go make myself busy and distract myself.
• 29:42
  And so the practices as I was doing them, which several were not easy, some were, it's like it allowed me to tangibly take the next step in a period of life where there were many days where I'm like, no.
• 30:06
  what am I going to do?
• 30:07
  What am I going to do?
• 30:08
  I lost my kids.
• 30:09
  I lost my work, everything.
• 30:10
  What am I going to do?
• 30:11
  And so as I was, so the walking combined with the brain dumping at the, after the walk.
• 30:19
  So the bilateral stimulation was wild.
• 30:22
  How much that helps me.
• 30:25
  Cause I always had to, of course the mentality, if I'm going to walk, I might as well carry a 50 pound pack.
• 30:30
  If I'm going to walk, why wouldn't I run?
• 30:32
  Like,
• 30:33
  It's like you broke up there for a second, George.
• 30:35
  The last thing we heard was bilateral stimulation.
• 30:38
  It's wild how much that helped me.
• 30:39
  What did you say afterwards?
• 30:41
  I was always the guy who was like, why would I walk when I can carry a 50 pound pack on my back?
• 30:46
  Why would I walk when I could run?
• 30:48
  Like, so I'm going to go for a run.
• 30:49
  I'm not going to walk.
• 30:50
  But that that practice of what do I do when I'm elevated or just daily walk and then brain dump.
• 30:59
  on my phone or a notepad.
• 31:02
  The time in neutral I was already doing, the rational self-pleasure, again, another one of those things that's highly misunderstood in my opinion and personal experience.
• 31:17
  Essentially, like what there's a practice that is drastically
• 31:25
  transforming like how much passion I have for my wife, but that also feels integrous in terms of, you know, I don't know.
• 31:35
  I think I can say this on the podcast, like mastering never felt good.
• 31:39
  Like it never felt good to do that.
• 31:40
  Yeah.
• 31:41
  It never felt good to do that.
• 31:43
  And I haven't really ever, but,
• 31:45
  But to be able to build a sort of like closed container that literally funneled passion towards my wife during a time when things were so tough.
• 31:56
  Again, months and months and months without sex, without, you know, release, anything like that, which was fine.
• 32:03
  But it's like that was a game changer for me.
• 32:06
  And then I would also say probably my favorite, Alex, was.
• 32:11
  going in and memorizing and then being able to learn what to ask my wife when to allow her space to express.
• 32:21
  I'm still like kindergarten level, I feel like, but being able to intentionally do that, that has been the biggest game changer, just in terms of very observant, asking those questions, listening,
• 32:38
  There's nothing she wants me to do by the end of it, but literally she treats me so differently the rest of the day, like in a good way.
• 32:47
  Unbelievable.
• 32:48
  Unbelievable.
• 32:49
  And I feel so connected to her through that process.
• 32:54
  So, yeah, these practices, as they stacked, gave me more and more and more confidence.
• 33:03
  And I'd even like to share if it's okay.
• 33:07
  Literally last night, what did I say to her?
• 33:11
  I said, look, she said, I'd love for you to be my anchor again.
• 33:18
  I said, hey, like, what you're thinking, what you're saying is me not being your anchor.
• 33:26
  Earlier in the day, she asked me what came up for you.
• 33:29
  I shared what came up for me, and she instantly exploded in defensiveness.
• 33:36
  hey, I want to be able to share with you, but it's okay if I don't share with you because there might be things that we can't broach yet as we're being patient with this.
• 33:51
  And Alex, she just kind of, she started weeping.
• 33:55
  And I went over and she allowed me to hold her.
• 33:58
  And there was just this huge release.
• 34:01
  And...
• 34:04
  Like that moment of like, it was probably 45 minutes of me holding her, grabbing more tissues, drying her eyes.
• 34:14
  And it was like a moment of release for her.
• 34:18
  Because I had finally, in recent weeks, I think this is actually something I talked to you about.
• 34:25
  In recent weeks, I've gotten much better at holding firm on a boundary, not just letting her verbally, whether it's assault or just like, because I thought containment was you just take it.
• 34:36
  Yeah.
• 34:37
  But it's not.
• 34:38
  And I've seen how the boundaries actually grow her respect for me.
• 34:44
  And actually grow her appreciation, grow the polarity.
• 34:47
  I've seen that.
• 34:49
  And I'm done holding her.
• 34:53
  She cleans up for bedtime.
• 34:55
  And we made love.
• 35:00
  And so it was like this experience again that I was going through individually and
• 35:09
  As I did these practices and kind of watching how it plays out, this is the only thing that gives me language for what's going on.
• 35:19
  There's nothing that I have learned before these last several months that would explain why these things, like why I can sit with her, hold her, and just say, I've got you.
• 35:32
  Like, and not take things personally, like knowing that her attack earlier was like not a personal thing, but being able to hold a groundedness with confidence and not fill the space.
• 35:46
  I have this anxious energy that I want to talk or be like, what's wrong?
• 35:49
  You know, is everything okay?
• 35:50
  And I didn't say a word for the 45 minutes.
• 35:53
  I just sat there with her.
• 35:56
  And so, again, like moving through this with the practices and then experiencing in real time this the kind of micro steps to healing, you know, what it's been like for me has been.
• 36:13
  They're finally second nature, you know, five months of doing this.
• 36:16
  And so that's been incredibly, I've been so grateful for that.
• 36:21
  Again, I don't know how to explain it, if not through the containment language.
• 36:27
  No, I appreciate.
• 36:28
  I think you explained it really well, George.
• 36:30
  You know.
• 36:33
  you know, the process you're describing for everyone listening is what we refer to as active containment.
• 36:37
  It's like sitting there holding the space, but really with a dominant energy, withholding yourself first so that she can feel your presence and feel your awareness and feel your curiosity and feel the safety.
• 36:50
  And, you know,
• 36:51
  you know, what often happens when, when that is, you know, that happens is that there is polarity created, you know, you create this energy of dominating yourself and being present.
• 37:02
  It's not dominating her.
• 37:03
  Don't anybody get confused.
• 37:04
  It's, it's, you know, you having internal, um, directionality and dominance of yourself.
• 37:10
  And that creates this space for her to surrender and emote and be in her expression.
• 37:15
  And that often creates that polarity.
• 37:18
  Um,
• 37:19
  I want to take a different tack just for a second, George, because, you know, no one joins the brotherhood because everything's going well.
• 37:28
  You know, there's and you saw this in the container.
• 37:31
  There's no I haven't had a single member that's like, my life's great.
• 37:34
  I want it to be greater.
• 37:35
  It's usually men are coming to us because there's some level of crisis.
• 37:37
  Yeah.
• 37:38
  And yours was one of the more intense levels of crisis.
• 37:43
  What was it like for you to come into a container with, I think the second group had around 100 something men.
• 37:50
  What was it like to be in that energy with all these other men that are going through similar things and willing to share openly and willing to be transparently, not transparently, willing to be transparent?
• 38:01
  What did that do for you, George?
• 38:04
  Yeah, no, I love that question because one of the things in my 20s, so I'm almost 36, but one of the things in my 20s that I held very tightly onto and I look back as a definite error of my thinking in ways was that if I wasn't working, I was with my wife and our little babies, which meant not a whole lot of time for brothers.
• 38:28
  Or yourself.
• 38:29
  Or myself.
• 38:31
  And so I didn't have either side-by-side brothers or older men, older men that I can, you know, ultimately lean into.
• 38:43
  And I spent many years only processing what was going on with my wife.
• 38:51
  And so I would mistake, I'm being vulnerable now.
• 38:58
  And it wasn't vulnerability.
• 39:00
  I was bringing her guts and blood and my anxiety and I was triggered.
• 39:04
  And then she would either regulate off my chaos or she would get triggered.
• 39:09
  And it fed into, it's like it had its purpose.
• 39:13
  The Lord worked in so many wonderful ways over our first 10, 11 years.
• 39:17
  But that's been something that I've reflected heavily on to where now processing with men in this container,
• 39:28
  They're being transparent.
• 39:30
  You know, we're all leading with transparency and honesty, like radical honesty.
• 39:37
  And then we're also not in our...
• 39:42
  We're not in our mode of like we're going to listen and then, well, here's what you should do next.
• 39:48
  Right.
• 39:49
  It became this culture.
• 39:50
  Holding containment.
• 39:51
  You were holding containment and first and foremost saying thank you for being brave enough to share this.
• 39:58
  And I don't know if this resonates with you.
• 40:02
  Like our responses would essentially be, hey, I've got you.
• 40:06
  Like whatever you're holding and what you've expressed and you're getting out right now, like that's got to be heavy.
• 40:12
  And I hear you and I see you and I've got you.
• 40:15
  And like, that's kind of, you know, that's not how men typically relate to each other.
• 40:21
  I would say, at least in my life, it's really special.
• 40:25
  It's really helpful.
• 40:26
  It's really powerful.
• 40:29
  That's another thing that's just been so clear is that words are powerful.
• 40:35
  Or just so you can bring life, you can bring death.
• 40:39
  And how can we speak into these other men?
• 40:43
  How can we receive and allow others to speak into us so that we can, you know, gosh, keep battling ultimately when you're out there at work?
• 40:55
  Or for many of us during these seasons, we're battling at home as well.
• 40:59
  So to have a confined space containment for these men to both hear, but then also to be able to get things out.
• 41:10
  It was really powerful, really helpful, really powerful and very consistent.
• 41:16
  There were no one-offs of people that I ever experienced that were anything but what I believe was intended for the design.
• 41:25
  And so that was really encouraging and just a testament as well.
• 41:28
  to you and, and who you've, uh, what your message has attracted.
• 41:32
  So that's not, I don't think that's normal either.
• 41:35
  Like, so that's, it was really great.
• 41:38
  And I appreciate that.
• 41:40
  Yeah.
• 41:40
  Thank you, brother.
• 41:40
  I appreciate that.
• 41:42
  Um, just a couple more questions.
• 41:44
  Of course.
• 41:45
  Um, what else do you want to share about where you are now compared to where you were before to a man who's listening and who might be in a similar place?
• 41:56
  Yeah, no, I love that.
• 41:59
  I was thinking of something I wanted to share.
• 42:01
  A big thing for me as well, with my attachment style being a more anxious attachment style.
• 42:09
  And the way that played out over the years was like...
• 42:12
  I would be pushy, right?
• 42:14
  Like, I would not give space because I wanted to fix it now.
• 42:17
  I wanted to hear her out now.
• 42:19
  Or, more often than not, I wanted to tell her how she was wrong and, like, you know, whatever it was.
• 42:25
  Correct her or, like, make sure I had my 12 points lined up so that she saw logically that, like...
• 42:32
  And in the process, dismiss her.
• 42:34
  But like one big thing for me has been, OK, what do I have going on in my life to energetically take the pressure off of her?
• 42:45
  That was something I don't think I'd really connected was.
• 42:49
  OK, if.
• 42:52
  I just created so much pressure and anxiety on her or the she wouldn't know how to articulate it.
• 42:57
  She would just say, you're heavy.
• 43:00
  Like you it feels like you're crushing me or or on top of me and I can't breathe.
• 43:07
  And it's like that's all she could articulate.
• 43:09
  But what it was was this codependency of like.
• 43:13
  But if you're not okay with me, then I'm not okay.
• 43:15
  So we've got to be okay because I want to be okay, right?
• 43:18
  Which is actually not that loving.
• 43:20
  It's not very selfless.
• 43:21
  It's all about me.
• 43:23
  And so having physical goals to embark on, which, you know, I owned gyms.
• 43:31
  I still own gyms.
• 43:32
  It's like...
• 43:33
  Like that the working out isn't hard for me, but like being intentional because combining the exercise maybe with the sauna, but also with the here's a here's a book I'm reading.
• 43:46
  Here's relationships I have that are important to me.
• 43:49
  Here's what's going on with my five kids.
• 43:52
  Here's what I'm focused on in terms of supporting in the home.
• 43:56
  Again, shifting to where I'm not mopping the floor so that my wife likes me.
• 44:00
  Mm hmm.
• 44:02
  I'm like embracing this, these parts of me that yes, take responsibility, but that's committed to creating the space to play some guitar, to go for walks and trust that my skillset and my productivity, I've built some incredible skills over the last 10 years.
• 44:22
  And those are going to be enough to, to feed my family.
• 44:25
  And so like energetically having things to focus on combined with that.
• 44:31
  The level of anxiety going down so much allowed me to be able to experience, let's say, what could be a rupture from my wife.
• 44:43
  Or actually, better put, I become really firm on like, I don't want you cussing at me.
• 44:50
  I don't want you yelling at me in front of the kids.
• 44:52
  These are certain boundaries that I know are best for both of us that I've had a hard time sticking to and can come off as like me maybe abandoning because I'm just not willing to engage in certain moments.
• 45:04
  And so, but being able to experience it where I can calmly just be like, I love you.
• 45:09
  I'm not going anywhere.
• 45:11
  We can talk in 20 minutes later tonight, tomorrow, whenever you're ready.
• 45:16
  And this, the third time, we cannot have this.
• 45:20
  And so I'm going to walk away.
• 45:22
  Because I'm back in the home for the last 11 days, but I'm sleeping in the basement still.
• 45:26
  So I'm in the basement.
• 45:27
  She's in our room.
• 45:28
  It's fine.
• 45:28
  It's great.
• 45:31
  And doing that and truly not being bothered by it, like still just being good to go.
• 45:37
  Heck, even me saying that, like, I genuinely am good with being in the basement.
• 45:41
  I think before it'd be like I would have had this, like, can I be in the room yet?
• 45:45
  Can I be in that?
• 45:46
  You know what I mean?
• 45:46
  Just kind of this anxious, like, what do I got to do?
• 45:48
  You know, give me a checklist of things to do before I can be in the room.
• 45:51
  I'm just not even worried about it.
• 45:53
  Like, you know what I'm saying?
• 45:54
  And so that's different.
• 45:55
  That's so different.
• 45:55
  It's so fast.
• 45:57
  Yeah.
• 45:57
  And so, you know, and I genuinely believe, again, just the language that you've given me from learning all this is like, she feels that.
• 46:05
  She feels that.
• 46:07
  And my goal, and I love this when I see it, the incremental building of safety for her.
• 46:13
  that I've just so trashed over the years.
• 46:17
  Um, you know, I'm, I'm good with it.
• 46:20
  I'm thankful for every bit of it, um, that, that she's growing in safety.
• 46:26
  Um, yeah.
• 46:28
  And so that, you know, maybe my communication to anybody in this situation is yes, the slow is fast and, um,
• 46:36
  And, you know, I think you have a really great way of layering these concepts so that it doesn't feel overwhelming, but it's still all-encompassing.
• 46:47
  And so that's been a powerful framework for me because it has felt like, again, so many other places, whether it's therapy or counseling or books or whatever, it's like, it feels like you're learning, like, all right, use this framework and acronym to communicate better.
• 47:05
  You know what I mean?
• 47:06
  It's like, I think I remember having a counselor say like, well, don't ever say something to somebody else, to the other person that's not kind, necessary, or true.
• 47:15
  K and T. And it's like, we kept going...
• 47:21
  We keep getting into these situations where we can't control whether what we say are kind, necessary, or true.
• 47:26
  What do we do then?
• 47:26
  Well, just try harder, right?
• 47:28
  And it's like, I don't think you understand.
• 47:30
  We get dysregulated, and literally our brains, when you get dysregulated, you're not thinking straight.
• 47:36
  You're not, like, logically saying...
• 47:40
  I'm going to control what I say.
• 47:41
  And I think that was what was so confusing for so long.
• 47:44
  And yeah, Alex, that's why I'm so grateful for what I've been walking through with this is it's almost given me an avenue to do the pre-work.
• 47:54
  Do the pre-work before you get to the...
• 47:57
  that moment because that's what's going to allow you to know how to not be reactive and then provide that reactive containment for her.
• 48:10
  And then again, to just finish out, I think what just came into my heart here was,
• 48:19
  And I take a deep breath because I had a big struggle with this for months.
• 48:22
  It was like, we've got to go first.
• 48:25
  Us men, we have to go first.
• 48:28
  And I'll never forget when you first said it, until we go first, all of her problems are going to be us.
• 48:34
  Yeah.
• 48:35
  And that just was so hard to swallow, but is so true.
• 48:41
  Because then when we go first, that's when, honestly, I mean, my wife is brilliant.
• 48:48
  She's wise.
• 48:49
  She's sharp.
• 48:50
  She's caring.
• 48:51
  She's nurturing.
• 48:52
  It's like, not only is it, because you always ask the question, well, what is she going to do with her stuff?
• 48:59
  It's like, my wife is so amazing.
• 49:05
  she basically handles herself for me.
• 49:08
  You know what I mean?
• 49:09
  Because she'll rupture, and then she'll be like, I'm going to go reach out to this lady to meet with her.
• 49:16
  I'm going to go do this at this deliverance prayer team thing and sit with the origin story.
• 49:21
  I'm going to go read this book.
• 49:22
  And so it's almost like self-correcting.
• 49:25
  Obviously, it may not be every wife, but my wife is incredible.
• 49:28
  And so I've experienced that too, where I spent way too much time
• 49:34
  so energetically like, well, what about your story?
• 49:38
  What about your upbringing?
• 49:39
  Both your parents were alcoholics.
• 49:41
  Their rights were severed by the time they were eight.
• 49:43
  And it was just a wicked way for me to just put this pressure on her when God has gifted her with prophecy.
• 49:52
  She's been gifted in so many ways that literally she's like,
• 49:56
  she knows anyway so i don't know if that makes sense but that's what i want to tell people is like this idea of energetically and then if your wife is anything like mine she she is she's a powerful hard-driving woman in in one sense you got to be when you're raising five hoodlums at home to manage the home but um yeah anyway those would be the things i would love to just like get out there george um i can't thank you enough brother uh
• 50:25
  I've had like full body chills so many times during this podcast because you've mentioned things and I remembered your experience in the container and I remember seeing you on the calls and hearing you ask the questions.
• 50:36
  And I knew there was a lot going on.
• 50:39
  And, you know, like having it all summarized in one hour just shows, honestly, brother, the depth of the work that you've done and the depth of your commitment to yourself.
• 50:50
  is extraordinary and your commitment to your, your relationship, your wife is so palpable and so tangible and your commitment to your family.
• 50:59
  Like that has come through so extraordinarily loud and clear on this podcast.
• 51:07
  And you know, the amount of healing you've done and the amount of processing you've done and the amount of introspection you've done to be able to come here is,
• 51:15
  and share what you did today in the way that you shared it in a way that I know is going to touch men's hearts in a way that I know is going to help men see themselves in a different way, um, has just been inspirational, man.
• 51:29
  I can't thank you enough.
• 51:31
  This has been just an extraordinary time to spend with you.
• 51:35
  And, um, I'll just ask one last thing.
• 51:38
  Is there anything else that you want to share?
• 51:41
  Yeah.
• 51:41
  So just to put a button on this is I first learned it during COVID and it's only been clear for me in the last probably two months here.
• 51:52
  I actually will never forget listening to kind of an emergency State of the Union by Alex Ramosi, owning gyms.
• 52:01
  Obviously, I got to know what that guy was.
• 52:04
  He actually helped me launch my gym in 2018.
• 52:06
  But
• 52:07
  He said, right now is when you create the experiences that become the stories that will last.
• 52:16
  for a lifetime, right?
• 52:17
  And COVID, I made sure was the best thing ever happened to my business and it was.
• 52:22
  And I'm looking back and Alex, this last year, I can confidently say already, will be the best thing that ever happens to me, my 35th year of life and my marriage darkness.
• 52:33
  And like, this will be the biggest blessing that I ever go through because again, I don't excuse the destruction that I caused at all.
• 52:44
  And I know that who I'm going to be for my wife, for my kids, the people I'm going to serve in my future businesses, like it is going to happen because of what I went through.
• 52:56
  And so this will become the experience that will be the story for many, many years to come.
• 53:02
  And I just want to encourage anybody else out there to hold on.
• 53:06
  Hold on with everything you've got.
• 53:08
  Continue to take one step forward after another.
• 53:10
  You're listening to this podcast.
• 53:13
  We believe in you.
• 53:13
  We've got you.
• 53:15
  And this is going to be the exact season that creates the stories that you tell yourself when things are hard in the future.
• 53:23
  And that just came to mind.
• 53:25
  I just wish everyone the best in what they're going through.
• 53:31
  go back through Alex's podcast because he encompasses so much.
• 53:34
  He gives everything away as far as like you can learn so much.
• 53:40
  But I'm just, Alex, so grateful for you and thankful for this time.
• 53:44
  And great to connect again.
• 53:45
  So grateful.
• 53:46
  I've been super busy, obviously, with the new ventures, but it's great to connect.
• 53:51
  And I'm so thankful for this time, man.
• 53:54
  Yeah, it's great to connect with you, George.
• 53:55
  It's great to be back in your energy.
• 53:56
  Thank you for making the time today.
• 53:58
  I know you've got a lot going on.
• 54:00
  And I just want to say to any man listening, um, if you like me related to George's story, if you heard yourself and some of what he said, if you've felt some of those feelings, if you've been in some of those situations, man, if you've been in that place where you're questioning everything, like both of us have, um, take a minute and go to the brotherhood society.com and register for our wait list or jump into an interview if they're available.
• 54:26
  And, um, yeah.
• 54:29
  come heal with us.
• 54:30
  Like, come walk this path with us.
• 54:32
  You don't have to do it alone.
• 54:35
  And it doesn't have to be the worst, most challenging, most horrible thing you've ever gone through.
• 54:41
  Because when you finally step into a place where you experience brotherhood and you understand what's going on and...
• 54:48
  you have the right practices and the right information, and you're not being misguided in a wrong direction, your entire life can turn around.
• 54:56
  And like George said, the darkest time you've ever had can be your future success story.
• 55:03
  And so don't go anywhere.
• 55:05
  Come join us.
• 55:06
  It would be my honor to walk this path with you.
• 55:09
  It would be my privilege to have you in the brotherhood.
• 55:11
  And I look forward to meeting every one of you.
• 55:15
  And George, thanks again for your time today, man.
• 55:17
  No problem, man.
• 55:18
  Thanks, Alex.