Latest / APD Pod Squad / Episode 15; Deputy Chief Jackie Stepp, retired Lieutenant Rae Ferguson, Senior Police Officer Justin Lewis, and The History Minute with Hannah Silberman

Transcript

Episode 15; Deputy Chief Jackie Stepp, retired Lieutenant Rae Ferguson, Senior Police Officer Justin Lewis, and The History Minute with Hannah Silberman · APD Pod Squad

0:00
SPEAKER_01: This is the APD Pod Squad.
0:04
SPEAKER_01: On this episode of the APD Pod Squad, our celebration of March as Women's History Month continues in a big way as we feature a woman with not one, not two, but three firsts.
0:17
SPEAKER_01: So her name with the APD, and probably more, retired Lieutenant Ray Ferguson.
0:22
SPEAKER_01: Also, the first female deputy chief at the Asheville Police Department.
0:27
SPEAKER_01: Jackie Stepp sits down with us.
0:29
SPEAKER_01: In the History Minute with Hannah Silberman, we'll learn about the first sworn female officers of the APD.
0:36
SPEAKER_01: You might be surprised at how long it took to make that happen.
0:39
SPEAKER_01: And we'll find out what's happening in the community engagement division and get to know Officer Justin Lewis.
0:46
SPEAKER_01: That's coming up in this episode of the APD Pod Squad.
0:51
SPEAKER_01: Retired Lieutenant Ray Ferguson joins me right now.
0:54
SPEAKER_01: And as we continue to celebrate March as Women's History Month, you are a history maker at the APD with the Crisis Negotiation Team as the first female lieutenant and the first female firearms instructor.
1:08
SPEAKER_01: All very big deals.
1:09
SPEAKER_01: Ray, thanks for joining me.
1:11
SPEAKER_02: Thanks for having me, Ray.
1:12
SPEAKER_01: Let's just uh get this right out of the way.
1:14
SPEAKER_01: They are fixing the roof right now in our building.
1:16
SPEAKER_01: So if people hear banging and clunking, that's the roofers.
1:21
SPEAKER_01: Also, by the way, the uh podcasting studio is right next to a bathroom.
1:24
SPEAKER_01: Now is a good time to point that out.
1:26
SPEAKER_01: You might hear an occasional flush.
1:28
SPEAKER_01: So this is just all background info.
1:30
SPEAKER_01: Speaking of background info, when did you join the Asheville Police Department?
1:34
SPEAKER_02: I came to uh the APD March the third, nineteen eighty-four.
1:38
SPEAKER_01: So you got it right down to the day.
1:40
SPEAKER_02: I know exactly what day it was.
1:41
SPEAKER_01: So it wasn't a pretty memorable then, I guess.
1:43
SPEAKER_02: It was.
1:43
SPEAKER_02: It was very exciting.
1:44
SPEAKER_01: So that your first day of employment with the APD, or what day was that?
1:49
SPEAKER_02: No, that was the first day of employment, and we went to B L E T.
1:53
SPEAKER_01: After that.
1:54
SPEAKER_02: Uh yeah, as a paid employee.
1:56
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
1:56
SPEAKER_01: Very vivid in your memory, obviously.
1:59
SPEAKER_01: And so I'm sure the rest of what we're going to talk about is pretty vivid as well.
2:02
SPEAKER_01: Because but you did some things that no women had ever done before with the Asheville Police Department.
2:08
SPEAKER_01: Right.
2:09
SPEAKER_01: Well we'll start off first and foremost.
2:10
SPEAKER_01: I introduced you as the retired lieutenant.
2:13
SPEAKER_01: You were the first female lieutenant at the APD, right?
2:16
SPEAKER_02: That's correct.
2:17
SPEAKER_01: So how did that come to be?
2:18
SPEAKER_01: Tell me how you kind of progressed through the ranks.
2:20
SPEAKER_02: Well, I uh obviously started out on patrol and then I uh had the opportunity to go to the training uh and personnel division at that time, what it was called, what we now call recruitment and career development.
2:33
SPEAKER_02: Uh and I worked there for five years.
2:35
SPEAKER_02: I tested for sergeant promotion and and I was promoted to sergeant 92.
2:40
SPEAKER_02: And then in 97 I had the opportunity to compete for a lieutenant promotion.
2:46
SPEAKER_02: Uh, and I was promoted lieutenant in 1997.
2:50
SPEAKER_01: So you were the first lieutenant, and we're talking about firsts.
2:53
SPEAKER_01: So what was your first first, if that makes sense?
2:56
SPEAKER_02: In terms of uh the first female to do stuff things in the department, I became a firearms instructor in 1988, and there had never been any other women who were firearms instructors.
3:07
SPEAKER_01: Did you encounter any, I don't want to use the word resistance, but you know, a little bit of side-eye, there's a girl in the room teaching us how to shoot type thing.
3:16
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but it wasn't bad, or else maybe I was just a little naive to it at the time.
3:22
SPEAKER_02: Uh I was a young officer.
3:23
SPEAKER_02: I'd only been here four years then.
3:26
SPEAKER_01: Well, tell me what the process was of becoming an instructor, though.
3:29
SPEAKER_01: I obviously you had to be very good at it for starters, but it didn't just come, hey, guess what?
3:34
SPEAKER_01: You're an instructor now.
3:35
SPEAKER_01: It had to be something you pursued, right?
3:37
SPEAKER_02: In a way, that's true.
3:38
SPEAKER_02: Uh one of the captains here who he he had watched me ever since I'd come to work here, and he thought that I was um he he thought I kind of had my act together and that I would be a good firearms instructor and asked me if I was interested, and I said I sure was.
3:54
SPEAKER_02: Um so filled out the application, sent it to the Justice Academy, and then you have to test.
4:01
SPEAKER_02: You have to go before you can even go to the school, and you have to be able to shoot a 95% and prove that you can shoot before they even let you in the school.
4:11
SPEAKER_02: And it's a two-week school, and you shoot a lot of rounds, and then at the end, if you pass all of the test and the shooting um qualification parts of it, then you you can become a certified instructor.
4:24
SPEAKER_01: Did anybody ever call you Annie Oakley?
4:26
SPEAKER_01: Anything like that?
4:27
SPEAKER_02: No, I can't remember anything like that, but it may have happened.
4:31
SPEAKER_02: I just don't know.
4:32
SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about some of your students.
4:33
SPEAKER_01: Uh who's your most memorable students that you came across?
4:36
SPEAKER_02: I had several that several that are very good, but one in particular that I can remember.
4:41
SPEAKER_02: Deputy Chief Step, when she went through basic law enforcement training, uh, I was one of her firearms instructors.
4:48
SPEAKER_01: Well, we'll be talking with Deputy Chief Stepp as part of this episode.
4:51
SPEAKER_02: Oh, well, she was a natural at it, and she did very, very well.
4:56
SPEAKER_02: I figured it wouldn't be long before she'd also become a firearms instructor, which she did, and uh she is very good.
5:02
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so she was a natural, she was good at it.
5:05
SPEAKER_01: Coming across some people that weren't as good at it, without naming names, did you have some folks that struggled with it?
5:12
SPEAKER_02: We sure did.
5:13
SPEAKER_02: Shooting is really uh a muscle memory activity.
5:18
SPEAKER_02: And but there were just a lot of people that they were either too nervous or they they weren't, you know, paying attention to the fundamentals that we teach.
5:26
SPEAKER_02: You know, there's basically seven fundamentals to shooting and they wouldn't pay attention or just had a hard time grasping it.
5:33
SPEAKER_02: And uh they struggled, uh, struggled to shoot, and we had some people that actually lost their jobs unfortunately over it.
5:39
SPEAKER_02: Um But most people most people would really settle down after a while and get to the point where they did okay.
5:47
SPEAKER_01: It's an important and necessary skill.
5:49
SPEAKER_01: You have to have that skill set to be an officer.
5:51
SPEAKER_01: You don't want to shoot you know on duty.
5:54
SPEAKER_01: You don't want to have to do that, but you need to know how and you got to be comfortable doing it and be effective at it.
5:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's absolutely right.
5:59
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, we've had some that have been kind of kind of unfortunately, I'd hate to say comical, because it's such a serious thing.
6:07
SPEAKER_02: But uh a couple of little problems at the range where we're, for example, one officer years and years ago was having trouble getting up from a kneeling position and used their gun and pushed it down on into the ground to use it as a to push themselves up.
6:23
SPEAKER_02: Yikes to know that's a big no-no.
6:27
SPEAKER_01: Now I now the guns themselves have changed since 1988.
6:31
SPEAKER_01: I'm guessing then that those were revolvers.
6:33
SPEAKER_02: It was.
6:34
SPEAKER_02: When I got hired in 1984, I was issued a model 65 Smith and Wesson uh revolver, which I have today.
6:42
SPEAKER_02: Uh when we switched to the uh semi-automatic SIGs, they the dealer allowed us that did a buyback for them.
6:50
SPEAKER_02: So uh I actually still have my first issued revolver.
6:54
SPEAKER_01: Do you remember what year that transition happened from revolvers to semi-automatics?
6:58
SPEAKER_02: It started in 1989 and was completed in 1990.
7:03
SPEAKER_02: And I was actually the rangemaster during that time when that was going on.
7:07
SPEAKER_01: So that's something you almost had to learn yourself before you taught others.
7:10
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's a different uh as somebody that owns revolvers and semi-automatics.
7:14
SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm here to tell you, for those people that aren't aware, it's different.
7:17
SPEAKER_02: Very different.
7:18
SPEAKER_01: They fired very differently single action, double-action revolvers versus obviously semi-automatics, way different situation.
7:26
SPEAKER_01: So you had a little bit of learning to do as well.
7:28
SPEAKER_02: That's true.
7:28
SPEAKER_02: Uh I went to a we they were SIG Sauer P220s, which was a 45-caliber semi-automatic handgun then, and the firearms instructors, uh, we were all sent to a SIG school and also a SIG armor school so we could work on the guns uh if they had any issues that needed to be fixed.
7:48
SPEAKER_02: And we carried those for years and years.
7:50
SPEAKER_01: See, I've never fired that particular uh pistol before, the the SIG, but it was a 45 caliber.
7:55
SPEAKER_01: Does it have kind of a kick to it?
7:57
SPEAKER_02: You know, actually for a big old gun like that, it was really easy to shoot.
8:01
SPEAKER_02: They even had us take some of the smaller folks that work here and take them out to the range with the SIG and run them through qualification courses uh just to see how they did and if that was going to be a problem because of their size.
8:15
SPEAKER_02: And it was not by any stretch.
8:17
SPEAKER_02: They all did just great.
8:18
SPEAKER_01: I have a Smith and Wesson 40 caliber that's probably the one that has the biggest kick uh in the ones I have.
8:24
SPEAKER_01: And I have higher caliber weapons, but that that 40 caliber Smith Wesson, for some reason, that thing kicks back on you.
8:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I've never shot one, but I've seen people that have them.
8:33
SPEAKER_02: And they do, they they're loud and they kick back.
8:36
SPEAKER_02: You're right.
8:36
SPEAKER_02: You're right.
8:37
SPEAKER_01: Because I've got a Springfield Armory 1911 with less of a kick than the Smith and Wesson 40.
8:44
SPEAKER_01: So it's just it's just how these things are designed, how they're made.
8:47
SPEAKER_02: It really is.
8:47
SPEAKER_02: It really is.
8:48
SPEAKER_02: Um, and we kept those.
8:50
SPEAKER_02: We went through uh a couple of purchase uh times of them and kept them for many, many years, and then I can't remember the exact year, but it was probably mid-2000s, early, early 2000s, we decided that's when we went to the Glock 9mm that we carry today.
9:09
SPEAKER_01: So what year did you become a lieutenant, which was another first?
9:13
SPEAKER_02: Uh it was in 1997.
9:14
SPEAKER_01: Okay, 1997, and then so uh the CNT was after that.
9:20
SPEAKER_02: It was about the same time, and I couldn't tell you exactly when, is when Lieutenant Emory retired, he was the commander then, and I was the assistant commander, and I got uh moved up to being the commander of the at the time it was called hostage negotiation team, but now it's crisis negotiation team.
9:39
SPEAKER_01: CNT we we love our abbreviations and whatnot around just the police department.
9:43
SPEAKER_01: I'm still learning all of them.
9:44
SPEAKER_01: There's there's so many.
9:46
SPEAKER_01: Law enforcement acronyms.
9:47
SPEAKER_01: Those acronyms are something day one of the job, I was getting thrown acronyms at me and I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, slow down.
9:54
SPEAKER_01: It's inside baseball.
9:55
SPEAKER_01: I'm still learning here.
9:56
SPEAKER_01: Uh speaking of learning, what what did you learn uh as part of that team?
10:00
SPEAKER_02: Well, I learned a lot.
10:01
SPEAKER_02: Had a lot of training over the years, um, several several uh dedicated schools to that.
10:07
SPEAKER_02: But the thing about talking to people when they're in very unfortunate and bad situations is is you have to get them to trust you.
10:17
SPEAKER_02: And you don't talk at them and keep blah blah blahing to them.
10:22
SPEAKER_02: You you try to get them to talk to you and you learn to have a lot of empathy uh for what their situation is and to try to help them because that's what it's all about.
10:33
SPEAKER_02: You don't want people to get injured or killed.
10:36
SPEAKER_02: You're trying to save life, and it it's a monumental thing.
10:40
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's it really takes an emotional toll on you sometimes.
10:44
SPEAKER_02: But you know, when you have a successful outcome, it's really good.
10:47
SPEAKER_01: And I would think those type of skills that you learn for that specific job responsibility, those type of things might carry over into your your non-work life, into your personal life, having maybe more patience, having more, I don't want to say negotiating skills with your spouse or something along those lines.
11:03
SPEAKER_01: But do you know what I mean?
11:04
SPEAKER_01: It kind of you see other people's perspectives.
11:06
SPEAKER_02: Aaron Powell I do, Rick.
11:07
SPEAKER_02: And you're right.
11:08
SPEAKER_02: You're 100% right about that.
11:10
SPEAKER_02: A lot of times, you know, you learn to listen to people, and I mean not just hear them, but you learn to listen to what they're saying and the inflections in their voice, and you really start to understand and you transfer that into your own thoughts about how, well, how am I talking to this person or how am I treating this person or how am I receiving this person?
11:31
SPEAKER_02: And it really does help you learn a lot in your personal life.
11:35
SPEAKER_01: I can imagine.
11:36
SPEAKER_01: Did you ever get somebody to say, Don't play the cop card with me when you start to negotiate like in the regular world to them?
11:41
SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah.
11:42
SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah.
11:43
SPEAKER_02: You yeah, oh, for sure.
11:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, people would be like, you know, they'll cuss you out and and tell you to go away, and you know, don't try to don't try to make friends with me and you know, things like that.
11:56
SPEAKER_02: It happened all the time.
11:57
SPEAKER_01: The gig is up, right?
11:58
SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah, oh yeah.
12:00
SPEAKER_01: As long as we're talking big picture, looking back after your long and illustrious career, impressive career actually, with all these firsts, what are some of the things you think about now, looking back or even looking forward?
12:12
SPEAKER_02: Um I'm really happy that at my age now that I'm still able every year to go qualify so I can uh be a certified law enforcement officer.
12:22
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so you still have to qualify as well.
12:24
SPEAKER_02: I do.
12:24
SPEAKER_02: Every year.
12:25
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
12:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
12:26
SPEAKER_02: Do my in-service training and uh go qualify.
12:29
SPEAKER_02: I've had such a good career here, and uh this this is my 38th year altogether of being employed at the Ashville Police Department, and I'm I'm very proud of that.
12:41
SPEAKER_01: I think of the episode when we're talking about shooting and uh expectations.
12:47
SPEAKER_01: Did you ever watch the Andy Griffith show?
12:49
SPEAKER_01: Do you see know which episode I'm talking about?
12:51
SPEAKER_01: When the uh I do when Andy thought he would, you know, be the one that shows her how to shoot at the competition, and then he gets out dueled.
13:00
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
13:00
SPEAKER_01: And then next thing you know, they're they're dating.
13:02
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
13:03
SPEAKER_02: You know, the other one, if you're talking about Andy Griffith that I think of too, is when Barney was afraid he wasn't gonna be able to qualify, and they went to the range and he pulled out his revolver and then cocked the hammer on it, and one-handed, you know, that was his one shot, that was his qualification.
13:20
SPEAKER_02: I was like, oh my goodness.
13:23
SPEAKER_01: Times have changed.
13:24
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
13:25
SPEAKER_01: Maybe that's what it was back in the day.
13:26
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
13:27
SPEAKER_01: It's uh technology wasn't what it is today, that's for certain.
13:30
SPEAKER_01: But you know, I learned everything about policing from Andy Griffith.
13:33
SPEAKER_02: So it's probably a good place.
13:35
SPEAKER_01: Okay, here's something completely unrelated to your accomplishments and police work in general.
13:40
SPEAKER_01: But one day I'm just sitting at my desk and you just start handing out some hot sauce.
13:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
13:44
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, uh, yes, I'd like some hot sauce.
13:47
SPEAKER_02: Well, I like to garden.
13:48
SPEAKER_02: And uh, for years I've always kept an herb garden in summertime because I I love to cook and I cook with a lot of fresh herbs and whatnot.
13:56
SPEAKER_02: And then I also love my husband and I love hot spicy food.
14:00
SPEAKER_02: And so I've always uh grown uh different varieties of chilies, and it just keeps getting bigger and bigger every year, uh different varieties and all.
14:12
SPEAKER_02: And then I I like to make hot sauce from the chilies that I don't cook with and um just share them with people.
14:19
SPEAKER_02: If I figure if people like them, I just want to share it.
14:22
SPEAKER_01: Chief Lamb puts that stuff on everything.
14:24
SPEAKER_01: You know that, don't you?
14:24
SPEAKER_02: I've heard that.
14:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, always see him with the bottle, and he he likes the hottest one too.
14:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:29
SPEAKER_01: The man likes it hot.
14:30
SPEAKER_01: So you are still with the APD.
14:33
SPEAKER_02: Yes, I I still work here part-time.
14:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like a lot of uh people that have re retired and you know they've come back on the job.
14:39
SPEAKER_01: We have some retirees that are in the drone unit.
14:42
SPEAKER_01: So, what is it you do you do now with the APD?
14:45
SPEAKER_02: I assist the accreditation manager, Hannah Silberman, who's been on the podcast several times.
14:50
SPEAKER_01: She has.
14:51
SPEAKER_01: She loves the history, she does the history minutes.
14:53
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
14:53
SPEAKER_02: And and I assist her.
14:55
SPEAKER_02: I work about 20 hours a week or so, and I help her out with the things in terms of our accreditation.
15:03
SPEAKER_01: We have so many uh retired officers that come back and work with the APD.
15:07
SPEAKER_01: What do you suppose is the primary driving factor to that?
15:09
SPEAKER_01: Is that just the oh, I'd like to keep working, or is it the camaraderie that you develop while you're on the job and it's difficult to be away from it?
15:16
SPEAKER_02: Honestly, I think for the people who are here, and I know everybody retired who who works here now well.
15:22
SPEAKER_02: We all work together for all those years, and it's people who really believe in in the mission, what the Asheville Police Department is committed to and just wants to be a part of it.
15:31
SPEAKER_02: You feel like you're making a contribution still to the community.
15:35
SPEAKER_01: You know, I've only been here for a year.
15:37
SPEAKER_01: Matter of fact, this week would be one year.
15:39
SPEAKER_02: Oh, congratulations.
15:40
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for that.
15:41
SPEAKER_01: Do I get anything for that?
15:42
SPEAKER_02: Is there is there some I'm gonna bring you some more hot sauce?
15:45
SPEAKER_01: I'll take it.
15:46
SPEAKER_01: We just had someone retire uh last week, Tammy Flanagan Bryson.
15:50
SPEAKER_01: And uh I was part of the the ceremony there in a send-off cake and things of that.
15:55
SPEAKER_01: One thing that struck me, and it's not the first time I've been a part of this, is just the emotional tie that people have to the department and their co-workers.
16:03
SPEAKER_05: Yep.
16:03
SPEAKER_01: You know, a lot of people throw that word family out there, you know.
16:07
SPEAKER_01: A lot of people do.
16:07
SPEAKER_01: And do they really mean it?
16:08
SPEAKER_01: We don't know, but I truly get that impression here that the people that are here are your family, your extended family.
16:16
SPEAKER_01: It just and I guess that's kind of is it part of the job?
16:19
SPEAKER_01: Is it part of the length?
16:20
SPEAKER_01: Is it all of that?
16:21
SPEAKER_02: It's a combination of all of those things.
16:23
SPEAKER_02: Obviously, like any other relationships, you're gonna be tighter with some people rather than others.
16:28
SPEAKER_02: But the bottom line is we're all here doing the same thing, and we will support each other and help each other out.
16:34
SPEAKER_02: And um, it's just a good feeling.
16:37
SPEAKER_01: How much longer do you think you'll stick around?
16:39
SPEAKER_02: I have no plans.
16:40
SPEAKER_02: I I really don't.
16:42
SPEAKER_02: Uh I enjoy what I'm doing.
16:44
SPEAKER_02: I still enjoy it.
16:45
SPEAKER_02: And as long as I feel like I'm making a contribution, then I'm as long as they'll have me, I have no plans to leave anytime soon.
16:54
SPEAKER_02: I guess I'll know when it's time.
16:56
SPEAKER_01: I forget who said it, but if you find something that you love to do, you'll never work a day in your life.
17:00
SPEAKER_01: Is it kind of like that?
17:02
SPEAKER_02: It's kind of like that.
17:03
SPEAKER_02: It is.
17:03
SPEAKER_02: And plus the fact now my husband does all the grocery shopping and keeps the house up, so it it may it works out.
17:10
SPEAKER_01: You get to go off and play cop and then he gets to stay at home and that's about right.
17:15
SPEAKER_01: Retired Lieutenant Ray Ferguson.
17:17
SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for sitting down with us and joining us in the podcast.
17:20
SPEAKER_02: Uh, thank you.
17:22
SPEAKER_01: With me now, Asheville Police Department Deputy Chief Jackie Stepp.
17:26
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for joining me.
17:27
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, my pleasure.
17:28
SPEAKER_01: I want to start by mentioning this, uh, call it a disclaimer or what have you.
17:32
SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure if it sounds different.
17:34
SPEAKER_01: My voice sure feels different, but the Southern Conference basketball tournament concluded last night, and I did that tournament as the public address announcer, so 16 games, five days.
17:46
SPEAKER_01: So if I sound a little different right now, uh that's why.
17:50
SPEAKER_01: I bring that up also because you played some basketball back in the day, right?
17:55
SPEAKER_00: I did.
17:56
SPEAKER_00: I was very fortunate to uh to play college ball, enjoyed it, but I want to take a moment to give you a shout out for the job that you did at the SOCON.
18:04
SPEAKER_00: So great job.
18:04
SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you.
18:05
SPEAKER_01: Uh now, where did you go to college?
18:07
SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure I've asked that before.
18:08
SPEAKER_00: Uh Western Carolina.
18:09
SPEAKER_01: Oh, so you're a catamount.
18:10
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
18:11
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
18:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, undergrad and graduate.
18:13
SPEAKER_01: Fantastic.
18:14
SPEAKER_01: Do you still get to play basketball?
18:15
SPEAKER_01: I know you had a little shoulder injury not too long ago and things like that.
18:18
SPEAKER_00: I take the opportunity periodically to uh beat up on these uh CID guys.
18:24
SPEAKER_00: So I absolutely as much as I can try to play with the detectives here.
18:28
SPEAKER_01: Have you surprised some of them like the first time that you play, like if they're new to the department or something, and they're like, oh, we got a girl on the court.
18:34
SPEAKER_00: Uh I'm not sure.
18:36
SPEAKER_00: Maybe.
18:36
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
18:37
SPEAKER_01: Hard to say.
18:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I try I just try to, you know, hang in there with them.
18:39
SPEAKER_01: Get out there, be competitive.
18:41
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
18:41
SPEAKER_01: And as we continue to celebrate March as Women's History Month, uh, you're sitting in a chair right now on the third floor, occupying a little bit of that history as the very first female deputy chief.
18:52
SPEAKER_01: So hey, congratulations first and foremost.
18:55
SPEAKER_01: I I didn't get a chance to say that because you had occupied that job not long before I I arrived, right?
19:00
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
19:01
SPEAKER_00: I think it was this September will be two years.
19:04
SPEAKER_01: So you've been the deputy chief a little over two years, and boy, you've seen a lot in those two years, haven't you?
19:09
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
19:10
SPEAKER_01: Uh I mean, things that we never thought we would see.
19:12
SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, when it comes to Hurricane Helene and all of that.
19:15
SPEAKER_01: Let's just jump right into that with Hurricane Haleen, because I've spoken with some other people about that, uh, with Chief Lamb and some detectives and and other people.
19:24
SPEAKER_01: What do you kind of take away from that?
19:26
SPEAKER_01: What do you remember?
19:28
SPEAKER_01: What are the the lessons, just really as you look back, what's gonna, you know, years from now be the thing that you recall that you remember about that experience from your leadership position and from just being a person, a citizen of Asheville?
19:42
SPEAKER_00: Well, there's there's a lot that stands out to me, but I'll I'll talk about two things.
19:46
SPEAKER_00: I think probably the number one was just the community as a whole coming together, not only within our community, but and beyond.
19:54
SPEAKER_00: You know, people came from everywhere across the country to assist not only just law enforcement, but citizens, you know, community members in any way that they could.
20:03
SPEAKER_00: And to me, that was really remarkable.
20:05
SPEAKER_00: I even have family from South Carolina who we would go down, load up our van, they would take donations and we would constantly bring here and drop off goods.
20:14
SPEAKER_00: So it was just unique to see that.
20:16
SPEAKER_00: I didn't expect, you know, my family's always a great supporter of me and the and the profession, but seeing them get involved and just how many people from outside got involved was just really moving.
20:26
SPEAKER_00: And then the second thing was the resilience of our officers here uh at the police department.
20:31
SPEAKER_00: Despite the personal challenges they were facing with their own families at home, they were remained committed to being here, to showing up uh and doing everything they could to help those in need.
20:41
SPEAKER_00: They showed dedication to the community, even while their loved ones were dealing with the exact same storm, some with property damage, but they were here and they were they left their families to be here and just be committed to our community and getting us through the initial phases of the hurricane.
20:55
SPEAKER_01: I know a lot of people's roles changed in the police department.
21:00
SPEAKER_01: People that were detectives became search and rescue, people that were doing one thing, were all of a sudden doing another.
21:05
SPEAKER_01: How about you and your job responsibilities?
21:07
SPEAKER_01: What were you primarily doing during that?
21:10
SPEAKER_01: And uh was it different than your normal responsibilities?
21:13
SPEAKER_00: Similar and different, I think.
21:15
SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, I'm over the administration bureau, but during that time, you know, I think everybody shifted into an operational mode.
21:21
SPEAKER_00: So I'd had a little bit of background in ICS, so I, you know, helped kind of get that up and running in the initial days of the hurricane, and then just kind of went from there to managing, you know, resources, finances, you know, all of the above.
21:36
SPEAKER_01: Trevor Burrus, Jr.: For the nonpolice folks, ICS Incident Command System.
21:40
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
21:40
SPEAKER_01: Uh it's which is basically kind of like a framework of how you do everything.
21:45
SPEAKER_01: And I know that's a big push here.
21:46
SPEAKER_01: Uh is it really gives you okay, this is something we've never experienced before, but here's something we can start with.
21:52
SPEAKER_01: Here's the framework, here's who does what, and and it really does help.
21:55
SPEAKER_01: That's what I saw was an incredible amount of organization here.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: It did not take long for people to realize what needed to be done and to just go and do it.
22:04
SPEAKER_00: That's exactly right.
22:05
SPEAKER_00: No one hesitated when you said, Hey, we need to do this or we need to do that.
22:09
SPEAKER_00: You know, everybody just said, okay, you know, where do I need to be?
22:12
SPEAKER_00: What do I need to do?
22:13
SPEAKER_00: And and everybody just really pulled together.
22:15
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, we had people, you know, trying to consider, you know, all aspects of the job and things that we may have were missing.
22:22
SPEAKER_00: Uh it was just a really good teamwork.
22:24
SPEAKER_01: And you know the ripple effects of Hurricane Helene, we're going to be feeling those for years to come, maybe forever in our lifetimes when it comes to the infrastructure of town, but specifically right now, and something you're having to deal with because of Helene, because we are part of the city of Asheville, and that's where our budget comes from, is a lot of people know this.
22:45
SPEAKER_01: Our revenues were, of course, way down because of the biggest time of the year.
22:48
SPEAKER_01: Tax dollars from tourists, all those things.
22:51
SPEAKER_01: There was no contributions there for months.
22:54
SPEAKER_01: So now, how does that affect what you're doing right now, how you're planning for the next fiscal year?
23:00
SPEAKER_00: Well, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said not only was there infrastructural loss, but you know, great revenue loss, uh, and it will take years to rebuild.
23:08
SPEAKER_00: But I think it created an opportunity for an incredible level of creativity and teamwork across departments throughout the city.
23:15
SPEAKER_00: Uh, we're all trying to think outside the box to find innovative solutions that allow us to continue to serve our community effectively despite the financial strain.
23:24
SPEAKER_01: As the first female deputy chief, let's talk about that, get back to March being, you know, Women's History Month.
23:30
SPEAKER_01: And when you're doing just your day-to-day job or or maybe when you first join the force or when you first ascended to the position, how much time, if any time, do you give thought to the fact that people look up to you because you're a female in your position and the first to do it?
23:46
SPEAKER_01: Do you feel any extra added pressure, anything like that?
23:48
SPEAKER_00: I do think there's definitely a sense of responsibility and awareness about the example I set.
23:54
SPEAKER_00: Because being in this position, you know, I am the first female.
23:57
SPEAKER_00: I don't really think about that so much as I think about I represent not only the department, but progression for women in law enforcement and specifically in leadership.
24:08
SPEAKER_00: It is largely a male-dominated field, uh, as we all know, and I just take pride in showing that it's about capability, not about gender.
24:17
SPEAKER_01: The Asheville Police Department has 29 sworn female officers.
24:21
SPEAKER_01: We have featured several of them on the APD pod squad.
24:25
SPEAKER_01: Lakeisha Haas, Kerry Lee, Emily Pontiakos, Mackenzie Gallion.
24:29
SPEAKER_01: If you crunch the numbers, it ends up being 17% of the police force is made up of females here at the APD, which is higher than the national average of 14%.
24:41
SPEAKER_01: So is that encouraging for you?
24:43
SPEAKER_00: That's very encouraging, and it's it's encouraging that we have leadership here from Chief Lamb, Chief Artima, you know, to hire, you know, women in law enforcement and recognize the value and diversity across the board.
24:57
SPEAKER_00: You know, we recently are trying to become involved in the 30 by 30 initiative, which is 30 percent uh women in law enforcement by 2030, and we're very proud to be a part of that program.
25:07
SPEAKER_00: So uh just grateful to be a part of an agency that recognizes and values diversity overall.
25:14
SPEAKER_01: We have had a female chief.
25:15
SPEAKER_01: Chief Tammy Hooper was here for about three years, exiting in I believe it was January of 2019.
25:22
SPEAKER_01: Is she somebody that you looked up to, if not her, some other uh females among the ranks as you have climbed in your law enforcement career?
25:30
SPEAKER_00: There was.
25:31
SPEAKER_00: There's been a number of, you know, if I'm gonna be honest, male and females that I've looked up to here at the police department throughout my career, and those have been in various ranks.
25:40
SPEAKER_00: Chief Hooper was the first female chief, and uh she was a friend and mentor to me.
25:46
SPEAKER_00: Grateful to have the opportunity to not only know her, uh, but work alongside her.
25:51
SPEAKER_00: I did jokingly tell her within the first couple of months of her being here that she uh did crush my goals of being the first female chief at the police department.
26:00
SPEAKER_00: But luckily that allowed us to create a little bit of a friendship as she knew uh what I aspired to do uh when I was a younger officer.
26:07
SPEAKER_00: So that was funny.
26:08
SPEAKER_00: But I've also, you know, just been surrounded by really good people who don't necessarily look at the gender.
26:14
SPEAKER_00: They just look at the value you bring to the table and just very fortunate to been surrounded by really good FTOs.
26:21
SPEAKER_00: I've been a couple of FTOs throughout my career, field training officers, that still today, you know, I I still today look up to, even though I may have surpassed them in rank or or whatever.
26:31
SPEAKER_00: And then there's just been various leaders, male and female, who took the time to invest in my growth.
26:37
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I really look at them as selfless leaders.
26:40
SPEAKER_00: And I think those are the people I tend to look up to that that take the time to invest in others.
26:46
SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell, Jr.
26:46
SPEAKER_01: I know you've done a lot, seen a lot, experienced a lot in your time with the Asheville Police Department.
26:50
SPEAKER_01: So what are the things that you have enjoyed?
26:52
SPEAKER_01: Maybe there's some of the things you have not enjoyed, your favorite or least favorite things about the job?
26:58
SPEAKER_00: I would say the thing I enjoy the most is making a difference, the ability to influence positive change within a department and also within the community, whether that's through policy, decisions, allocating resources, but I also get to collaborate with an incredible team of officers and leaders here at the police department.
27:17
SPEAKER_00: So that's by far my most favorite.
27:20
SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't say least favorite, but I would say probably the most challenging is the weight of responsibility that comes with decision making as a deputy chief.
27:30
SPEAKER_00: The decisions I make have far-reaching consequences, uh, whether it's managing resources, uh financial matters, addressing complaints, uh, dealing with other complex issues, and those can be internal or external.
27:46
SPEAKER_00: Just understanding the weight that those decisions have is not my least favorite, but it's definitely the most challenging.
27:54
SPEAKER_01: I've seen you take a bull by the horns while you've been here, though.
27:56
SPEAKER_01: So certainly you don't shirk away from the chance to make decisions.
27:59
SPEAKER_01: You seem to excel at that.
28:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely not.
28:01
SPEAKER_00: I'm uh I do take pride in in being able and competent enough to make a decision.
28:06
SPEAKER_00: Doesn't mean I'm always right uh and I accept responsibility when I'm not, but uh I don't hesitate to make a decision.
28:12
SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell Since you had mentioned this already about your desire to be chief when you had referred to uh former Chief Hooper, it's not really, I guess, uh a mystery that somebody that's the deputy chief would want to at some point become chief.
28:24
SPEAKER_01: Can I just assume that's an aspiration for you?
28:27
SPEAKER_00: I think as an as a younger officer, I would have said yes, uh, that was my aspiration.
28:33
SPEAKER_00: I think now I'm just more comfortable in where I am, and I just aspire to be the best version of myself, regardless of the rank that I hold.
28:41
SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell And I've actually always held the belief that maybe the best person for the job isn't the person that wants that job the most.
28:48
SPEAKER_01: And perhaps the person that desperately wants a certain position is the one that shouldn't have that position.
28:55
SPEAKER_01: Does that sound fair?
28:56
SPEAKER_00: I think that's fair.
28:57
SPEAKER_00: And I think that, you know, my goal is just to work hard every single day, and I I feel like I do that, and I just want to contribute positively to our agency daily, and I think that's that's what I aspire to do.
29:09
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
29:09
SPEAKER_01: Putting you on the spot right now, if you were chief today, is there one thing that you can think of offhand that you've always thought you would like to do, a change that you would like to make, a policy you'd like to implement within the department?
29:22
SPEAKER_00: Well, I think the one thing that we need the most, again, this is no secret, but we we've got to be competitive with our salaries.
29:30
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I'll I will just continue to work to get us to be what we've as aspired to be since uh Chief Zach left, and that's the best equipped, best trained, and best paid in the state.
29:41
SPEAKER_00: So I just kind of want to carry that on, but I want to I want to get us across the finish line in terms of salaries, re-evaluate and revamp our evaluation program.
29:52
SPEAKER_01: I couldn't agree more.
29:53
SPEAKER_01: And perhaps the first position to take a look at would be uh position of public information officer.
29:58
SPEAKER_01: That guy deserves a raise.
30:00
SPEAKER_01: Pitch for that particular position.
30:01
SPEAKER_00: Noted.
30:06
SPEAKER_01: Deputy Chief Jackie Stepp, thank you so much for joining us and taking your time with us today.
30:10
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
30:12
SPEAKER_01: Joining me now on the APD Pod Squad is Officer Justin Lewis.
30:16
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for joining me.
30:16
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
30:17
SPEAKER_01: So you are part of the community engagement division.
30:19
SPEAKER_01: We are going to be talking about some of the cool stuff you guys got coming up.
30:22
SPEAKER_01: But since it's your first time in the chair, we're going to treat this as kind of a getting to know.
30:26
SPEAKER_01: If you've heard the podcast before, you know we ask a couple of questions, right?
30:30
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
30:30
SPEAKER_01: So the first is where are you from originally?
30:33
SPEAKER_04: Uh I grew up in uh the county neighboring in Madison County.
30:37
SPEAKER_04: Uh sit there and born here in Asheville, raised out there, family come down from Michigan.
30:42
SPEAKER_04: So just born on a little farm, went to Madison High School, middle school, all that area, and then come work out here.
30:48
SPEAKER_04: So I proposed to my wife in Madison County.
30:50
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
30:50
SPEAKER_01: Uh Max Patch.
30:52
SPEAKER_04: Yes, very familiar.
30:53
SPEAKER_01: Yep, Max Patch.
30:54
SPEAKER_01: Now, this is before Max Patch was cool, right?
30:56
SPEAKER_01: So this was this was 2000, right?
30:58
SPEAKER_01: The before it kind of blew up and a whole bunch of articles were written about how it's the hidden gem and all that.
31:03
SPEAKER_01: And of course, now it's not hidden anymore.
31:05
SPEAKER_04: No.
31:05
SPEAKER_01: And and they did some damage to it, actually, like uh during the COVID.
31:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, people went up there and they camped.
31:10
SPEAKER_01: And of course, people suck, so they trashed it.
31:14
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
31:14
SPEAKER_01: And then they kind of had to shut it down for camping and things like that.
31:16
SPEAKER_01: And so now it's starting to kind of regrow, which is cool.
31:20
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, the community really comes together out there, and just like you're out here in Asheville, you know, something so beautiful gets trashed.
31:26
SPEAKER_04: Everyone decides to come together real quick to try to bring that beauty back.
31:30
SPEAKER_01: And the Appalachian Trail goes right through it, right at the top of it.
31:32
SPEAKER_01: So for the for the four or five people that haven't been to Max Patch here, since everyone else has, uh, make a trip up there sometime.
31:39
SPEAKER_01: Uh I think you can see four states from there or something.
31:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:42
SPEAKER_01: It's it's it's just really beautiful.
31:44
SPEAKER_01: It's a bald, so it's this area on top, like a plateau where you can just see in every direction forever.
31:50
SPEAKER_01: It's so awesome.
31:51
SPEAKER_04: It's it's a beautiful view, especially if you get warm evening, watching the sunset.
31:56
SPEAKER_04: Can't beat it.
31:57
SPEAKER_01: In Madison County, it's a beautiful place.
31:58
SPEAKER_01: It is.
31:59
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure you enjoyed growing up there.
32:00
SPEAKER_01: It it caused some trouble up there in a good way, like the way kids do, you know, mucking around in the creek and things like that.
32:05
SPEAKER_04: I definitely I definitely had my time in uh causing issues for you know some of the neighbors and stuff, but great communities.
32:13
SPEAKER_04: It takes a community.
32:14
SPEAKER_04: And they looked out after me.
32:15
SPEAKER_04: They made sure, told my parents when I didn't want them to.
32:19
SPEAKER_04: But I grew up with some good morals out of it.
32:21
SPEAKER_01: That Lewis boy, you gotta keep your eye on him.
32:23
SPEAKER_01: So uh grow up in Madison County, why the Asheville Police Department?
32:27
SPEAKER_04: Aaron Ross Powell So my dad was actually chief out in Madison County uh in Mars Hill.
32:32
SPEAKER_04: Uh, and I got to grow up just listening to stories and how so many of the citizens of Mars Hill say how much he helped.
32:39
SPEAKER_04: I mean, all the time I'd go with him on his days off and he'd go cut wood, fix some plumbing, work on cars for a lot of his citizens, and you grow up to be half the man your dad is.
32:50
SPEAKER_04: You'll do fantastic things.
32:52
SPEAKER_04: And it just he really brought about and hit it home for me for serving the community.
32:57
SPEAKER_04: And I was like, policing is so much more than what you always hear.
33:00
SPEAKER_04: Everyone's like, oh, I joined for shooting guns and driving cars fast.
33:04
SPEAKER_04: No, like it is a way to serve the community and give back.
33:07
SPEAKER_04: I didn't go into armed forces like my brother did.
33:10
SPEAKER_04: So I thought this was my my way to give back.
33:12
SPEAKER_04: Like I can I can really be a part of it.
33:15
SPEAKER_04: I had a family, so I couldn't put myself through the uh the certification part to get my certification in B L E T.
33:21
SPEAKER_04: So uh I put in for Asheville.
33:23
SPEAKER_04: Asheville gave me the opportunity to go ahead and go through this, pay me through it while I can provide for my family, and I haven't looked back since.
33:31
SPEAKER_01: So did you come into it like right out of high school?
33:33
SPEAKER_01: Like this was what you wanted to do and you knew it?
33:35
SPEAKER_04: I actually chickened out of going to college.
33:38
SPEAKER_04: Uh I was going for video game design and is in Raleigh.
33:42
SPEAKER_04: I sit there and had me apartment set up, a job set up with UPS working in the factor or in the uh factory side, I guess.
33:50
SPEAKER_04: And uh I got cold feet.
33:52
SPEAKER_04: Turned around.
33:53
SPEAKER_04: I worked out uh with a DOT for almost 10 years, and I was like, I kept getting drawn back to this.
33:59
SPEAKER_04: My dad begged me not to do it, but I kept wanting to do it.
34:02
SPEAKER_04: So I Asheville gave me my chance and I haven't looked back since again.
34:06
SPEAKER_01: You seem to love your job, so I I'm gonna assume you made the right decision.
34:10
SPEAKER_04: Oh, absolutely.
34:11
SPEAKER_04: I wouldn't change it one bit.
34:12
SPEAKER_04: Now, some of the outcomes uh of what I've done, lessons learned here and there.
34:18
SPEAKER_04: You know, I wish I would have put more into it beforehand to better myself.
34:21
SPEAKER_04: Uh is definitely a cultural shock.
34:23
SPEAKER_04: Uh farm boy in Madison County to come to Asheville, everything changed.
34:27
SPEAKER_04: So always one to learn, though.
34:28
SPEAKER_04: Uh I I make it a meaningful task every day to at least learn one thing new.
34:33
SPEAKER_01: Speaking of Madison County boys, I've heard a percentage of them have beards.
34:37
SPEAKER_01: And now you also have a beard.
34:39
SPEAKER_01: That's a new policy here at the Asheville Police Department, allowing our officers to have beards.
34:44
SPEAKER_01: I am not a sworn officer, so I was allowed to have one previously.
34:47
SPEAKER_01: I know everyone was jealous of mine.
34:49
SPEAKER_01: Probably not.
34:50
SPEAKER_01: It's not as uh nicely quoffed as yours.
34:52
SPEAKER_01: But so this is not video.
34:54
SPEAKER_01: Some people might not know this, but you are wearing a beard.
34:56
SPEAKER_01: So pretty excited about that policy change?
34:58
SPEAKER_04: Absolutely.
34:59
SPEAKER_04: Uh just like the whole tattoo point, it it gives a little way to converse.
35:03
SPEAKER_04: It lets them know uh instead of us being this strict outline of what they envision us, it allows us to bring up a conversation of that.
35:11
SPEAKER_04: I mean, it it's wild to think, but beards, just that simplicity of it, is a good conversation piece on it, how you style it, you know, different things, calico beards, because I I have a red tint to my beard that people sit there and will comment on every now and then.
35:24
SPEAKER_04: So it a good conversation piece to bring up and I guess make it more approachable.
35:31
SPEAKER_01: I used to have a red tint to mine, because I have some Irish in it, but every year where I kind of go thinner and then I go thicker in the winter, right?
35:38
SPEAKER_01: Which is traditional.
35:39
SPEAKER_01: But every year it goes more and more white, as you're probably seeing.
35:43
SPEAKER_01: It just I lose the red and I gain the white by just a certain percentage every year.
35:48
SPEAKER_01: So it's a matter of time before it's 100% white, and and then off we go.
35:52
SPEAKER_01: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
35:52
SPEAKER_04: Instead of salt and pepper, it's Himalayan salt and pepper.
35:55
SPEAKER_01: Isn't that what it is?
35:56
SPEAKER_01: I thought that was pink.
35:57
SPEAKER_01: Isn't Himalayan salt pink?
36:00
SPEAKER_04: Different tense, you know.
36:02
SPEAKER_01: You know, so your your video game uh thought of I think that'll lead into our next question a little bit because something we always ask is what's one thing that most people don't know about you?
36:14
SPEAKER_01: And I found this pretty unique.
36:15
SPEAKER_01: Why don't you share?
36:16
SPEAKER_04: Uh yes, absolutely.
36:18
SPEAKER_04: So I'm a big comic book book nerd.
36:20
SPEAKER_04: I got a tattoo of Gambit, also known as Remy LeBeau, is his real name, uh, which is X-Men.
36:26
SPEAKER_04: Uh, really big into comics, video games, uh, that sort of thing.
36:30
SPEAKER_04: So always love talking about it.
36:32
SPEAKER_04: Whenever me and my wife got married, I'm one of the very few comic book nerds out there that got a Superman ring allowed to be put on.
36:38
SPEAKER_04: So she let me rock this.
36:40
SPEAKER_04: Uh but since 2002, I started collecting Marvel Legend action figures.
36:46
SPEAKER_04: Now in 2025, I'm over 6,000 figures deep.
36:51
SPEAKER_04: My God, where do you put them?
36:52
SPEAKER_04: Uh right now in totes.
36:54
SPEAKER_04: I'm running out of room.
36:55
SPEAKER_04: So uh a comic book shop.
36:58
SPEAKER_04: Whenever I got out of high school, uh, I went to quite often, and I was pretty big in uh collecting.
37:04
SPEAKER_04: Of course, you know, young kid out of high school, not that much money.
37:07
SPEAKER_04: So I had to be very thoughtful on where I was spending it.
37:10
SPEAKER_04: Of course, what better way to spend it than on comic books and action figures, right?
37:14
SPEAKER_04: Responsibility at a space.
37:16
SPEAKER_04: Sure, yeah, absolutely.
37:17
SPEAKER_04: So made friends with a comic shop owner, and I got the bright idea that I would sit there and recreate the comic book covers with my action figures and take pictures and send it to them.
37:27
SPEAKER_04: Loved the idea.
37:28
SPEAKER_04: And then I got into it bigger and started making, you know, big scenes that you'd see from movies or comic books, video games, TV shows, and uh I just kind of went overboard with it.
37:41
SPEAKER_04: And OCD kicked in, and instead of just getting the ones I like here and there, I had to have the complete set.
37:46
SPEAKER_04: And before I knew it, I sit there and decided I'm gonna sit down and count these.
37:51
SPEAKER_04: After I counted it the first time about six years ago, my jaw kind of dropped and I kind of worried because I thought my wife was gonna kill me.
37:59
SPEAKER_01: I bet some of those are worth some money.
38:01
SPEAKER_04: Oh, absolutely.
38:02
SPEAKER_04: There's some that never exited the packaging.
38:04
SPEAKER_04: I'm an out-of-box collector uh usually.
38:07
SPEAKER_04: There's certain ones and sets from exclusive figures that collectors will gather that stay in these boxes.
38:15
SPEAKER_04: I have no plans on getting rid of them, but I also have hundreds of boxes set up in a shed that is being set aside just in case something happens to me.
38:25
SPEAKER_04: My family have something to fall back on, whether they want to keep them for sentimental value or sell them.
38:30
SPEAKER_04: I keep a list in my phone, uh printed list at home, and I have a couple friends that know if something was to happen to me, help my family sell this for money.
38:38
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
38:38
SPEAKER_01: So we do have something in common.
38:39
SPEAKER_01: I never did the figurines, but I collected comic books growing up.
38:43
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
38:43
SPEAKER_01: I recently sold my collection about uh about four or five years ago before I moved for like the 14th time and I was sick of moving them all over the place.
38:50
SPEAKER_01: I I kept them all those years because if I had kids or if my brother's kids wanted them, I was just gonna give them and pass them along.
38:59
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
39:00
SPEAKER_01: And that just never happened until after I sold them.
39:02
SPEAKER_01: And then I'm like, what?
39:03
SPEAKER_01: You sold your comic books?
39:04
SPEAKER_01: And my nephew Zach was like, I would have had, I didn't know.
39:07
SPEAKER_01: You didn't say anything.
39:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
39:08
SPEAKER_01: So I collected a lot of Spider-Mans.
39:10
SPEAKER_01: Uh I did all of the Spider-Mans, the Peter Parker's, the Amazings, all of the Spider-Mans.
39:15
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I did a lot of the The Sgt.
39:17
SPEAKER_01: Rock and a lot of the different war World of War and all those different ones.
39:21
SPEAKER_01: So I had all of those.
39:22
SPEAKER_01: Blackhawk was a series I did.
39:24
SPEAKER_01: Uh so I ended up selling mine for way less than I thought they were worth.
39:28
SPEAKER_01: Uh, but I I got about 500 bucks for them.
39:31
SPEAKER_01: I had some that were I had a few of them that were the ones that really carried the day.
39:34
SPEAKER_01: Like, oh, that one's worth like 40 bucks, 50 bucks.
39:37
SPEAKER_01: And then some of the rest of them were like, oh, I'll give you like$2 a piece for this whole blah, blah, blah.
39:41
SPEAKER_01: And and so, yeah.
39:42
SPEAKER_01: So I don't I don't have any comic books anymore, but I used to have piles and piles of them.
39:47
SPEAKER_04: I've got about, I think, 10 of those uh two-foot boxes full uh sitting in my closet.
39:52
SPEAKER_04: I bagged them, bored them, make sure they're taken care of.
39:55
SPEAKER_04: I was always a big collector since I was a kid.
39:57
SPEAKER_04: I love keeping things in pristine col condition.
40:00
SPEAKER_04: Um my brother, no.
40:01
SPEAKER_04: No.
40:02
SPEAKER_04: If he's seen the package wasn't open, he went ahead and made sure to open it for me just to make sure that was good.
40:07
SPEAKER_04: He's just sweet.
40:09
SPEAKER_04: I never could get into digital comics.
40:11
SPEAKER_04: I tried, but nothing beats a fresh smell of a new comic opening.
40:15
SPEAKER_01: No, and it's never really caught hold.
40:17
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
40:18
SPEAKER_01: People just it's they feel the same way.
40:20
SPEAKER_01: It's it's got to be the comic book.
40:22
SPEAKER_04: And it it's a kind of an older, older generation thing.
40:24
SPEAKER_04: Uh it definitely is somebody who grows up with technology the way they have, uh, like my kids, they don't see uh comic book, a physical comic book.
40:32
SPEAKER_04: They'd rather see it on their tablet, iPhone, whatever.
40:36
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
40:36
SPEAKER_01: They'll just they'll never know what they're missing.
40:38
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
40:38
SPEAKER_01: Just never know.
40:39
SPEAKER_01: Officer Justin Lewis is joining me right now of the community engagement division.
40:43
SPEAKER_01: You guys are staying busy.
40:44
SPEAKER_01: We got the warmer weather coming.
40:45
SPEAKER_01: What do we got coming up in community engagement?
40:48
SPEAKER_04: So the most recent uh thing to come up is we have uh Little League opening day on March 22nd.
40:54
SPEAKER_04: It's from 10 a.m.
40:55
SPEAKER_04: to 5 p.m.
40:56
SPEAKER_04: at 70 Westchapel Road in South Ashfield, just right off Sweeten Creek Road.
41:00
SPEAKER_01: Okay, for folks that live down in that area, they know which park that is.
41:03
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
41:04
SPEAKER_01: Uh so they'll be able to find that.
41:05
SPEAKER_01: That's pretty cool.
41:06
SPEAKER_04: And then uh we had the Junior Police Academy coming up still.
41:10
SPEAKER_04: Taking applications is from June 16th through 20th, 8 a.m.
41:14
SPEAKER_04: to 5 p.m., ages from 14 to 18 years old.
41:17
SPEAKER_04: It's free sign up.
41:18
SPEAKER_04: Kids get to come out, get the experience and see what police do.
41:22
SPEAKER_04: We get to show you around, we get to have some fun events, uh, eat.
41:26
SPEAKER_04: Like I said, it costs nothing.
41:27
SPEAKER_04: We're taking applications now.
41:29
SPEAKER_04: Go on to the Asheville Police Department website, sign your kid up, and hopefully we'll get to see them.
41:35
SPEAKER_04: It's gonna be a fun time, a week-long event.
41:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, way better than going to summer camp.
41:39
SPEAKER_04: Oh, ten times.
41:42
SPEAKER_04: We also have the Truck City event, April 12th from 1 p.m.
41:45
SPEAKER_04: to 4 p.m.
41:46
SPEAKER_04: at the Tanger Outlets.
41:48
SPEAKER_04: And I did not know about this event until recently.
41:51
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
41:52
SPEAKER_04: City of Asheville Parks and Rex host it, and they're inviting everyone who has any kind of truck that you can think of as a kid, especially a young boy myself.
42:01
SPEAKER_04: What better way to get in a construction truck or a fire truck or one of the police vehicles?
42:06
SPEAKER_04: They invite everyone far and right wide to come in.
42:09
SPEAKER_04: The first hour I just found out is no lights, no horns, no sirens, none of that for anybody with sensory issues.
42:16
SPEAKER_04: Oh, that's great.
42:16
SPEAKER_04: So that first issue, those kids that have sensory issues can come in.
42:20
SPEAKER_04: They're not gonna have to worry about those loud sounds or anything and check things out.
42:23
SPEAKER_01: I know there's certain kids that are maybe a little bit autistic or whatever.
42:26
SPEAKER_01: They can't handle the noise and the lights and all those things, but they might want to see the big trucks.
42:30
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
42:31
SPEAKER_01: So that's a perfect opportunity for them.
42:32
SPEAKER_01: So parents, uh, that's the first hour of it.
42:35
SPEAKER_01: So make sure you get them there early and they can enjoy it just like all the rest.
42:38
SPEAKER_04: Absolutely.
42:39
SPEAKER_04: And then one of the other things near and dear to our heart is the Special Olympics.
42:42
SPEAKER_04: Uh we have two events at the Special Olympics.
42:45
SPEAKER_04: Uh first one's gonna be at TC Robertson High School.
42:48
SPEAKER_04: It's gonna be May 1st.
42:49
SPEAKER_04: Please come out.
42:50
SPEAKER_04: And then again at AC Reynolds High School on May 8th.
42:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I'm actually the MC for that one.
42:55
SPEAKER_01: Oh, excellent.
42:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for the second one.
42:57
SPEAKER_01: So um I was pleased, I was honored that they asked me to do it.
43:00
SPEAKER_01: This is the first time they've gone to two different events uh this year.
43:04
SPEAKER_01: Uh Tammy, uh, who works with the Family Justice Center, she's at Tammy Jones.
43:08
SPEAKER_01: She's actually going to be doing the first one, and they needed somebody for the second one.
43:11
SPEAKER_01: She recommended me, and I was glad that she did.
43:13
SPEAKER_01: So I'm looking forward to that as well.
43:15
SPEAKER_04: Oh, it's an absolute blessing.
43:16
SPEAKER_04: It's a blast just getting to see everyone, throw it out there.
43:19
SPEAKER_04: They they absolutely love it.
43:21
SPEAKER_04: We absolutely love supporting it and being there.
43:23
SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
43:24
SPEAKER_01: All right, Justin Lewis, thank you so much for joining us.
43:26
SPEAKER_01: We're looking forward to collecting things with you in the future.
43:28
SPEAKER_01: Maybe trading some do you baseball cards as well or no?
43:31
SPEAKER_04: I used to.
43:31
SPEAKER_04: I have them stashed away.
43:33
SPEAKER_01: Those stay sacred.
43:34
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
43:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they're in books.
43:35
SPEAKER_01: We can't if anyone ever wants to buy them, though, you can get a hold of me.
43:39
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I'll try and find a way to sell those in the future because uh mom ended up losing a whole bunch of those at one point.
43:44
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
43:44
SPEAKER_01: The old story how mom threw away your baseball cards.
43:47
SPEAKER_01: Uh mom says she didn't, but that's who I'm blaming for part of mine.
43:51
SPEAKER_04: Oh, I can only imagine the old G.I.
43:52
SPEAKER_04: Joes I used to play with and Ninja Turtles that I've buried in our backyard.
43:56
SPEAKER_04: So you still got some buried back yet?
43:58
SPEAKER_04: Oh, without a doubt.
43:59
SPEAKER_01: Well, maybe the dog gave it.
44:00
SPEAKER_01: Dig him up.
44:01
SPEAKER_01: Justin Lewis, thanks for joining us.
44:02
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
44:04
SPEAKER_01: It's time for the History Minute with Hannah Silberman.
44:08
SPEAKER_01: And as we alluded to in the last episode of the APD Pod Squad, this week's episode in this particular segment would be dedicated to the first female sworn officers of the APD.
44:20
SPEAKER_01: But much like a social media relationship status, apparently it's complicated, right?
44:27
SPEAKER_03: That's right.
44:27
SPEAKER_01: So it's not as cut and dry as we would like it to be.
44:31
SPEAKER_01: However, that makes for a lively conversation.
44:33
SPEAKER_01: So start at the beginning as far as all the different things that are going to play into who is considered to be the first female officer, because as they say, opinions vary.
44:45
SPEAKER_03: Aaron Powell Right.
44:46
SPEAKER_03: So it it's complicated because in 1974, the department still had no female police officers, which is pretty late in the game.
44:54
SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell I think that was going to surprise most people that it was 1974.
44:58
SPEAKER_01: I know you haven't researched the entire country, but I'm guessing we were probably a little bit behind.
45:02
SPEAKER_03: Aaron Powell We were.
45:03
SPEAKER_03: Well, because it was so late, it became pretty obvious that the department was skipping or overlooking or refusing to hire women as police officers.
45:13
SPEAKER_03: So two specific candidates filed a complaint with the Department of Justice, which was joined by six additional female applicants.
45:21
SPEAKER_03: And they essentially filed a complaint and lawsuit against the department for discrimination.
45:27
SPEAKER_01: So these are women that applied to be police officers with the Asheville Police Department and were rejected?
45:32
SPEAKER_03: Trevor Burrus Yes.
45:33
SPEAKER_03: And they took the civil service test, which was still required at the time.
45:37
SPEAKER_03: And it was later found that at least one of them scored in the top three and was still not hired.
45:41
SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell So was that really all there was to just qualifying to at least enter the police academy and things of that nature be accepted as just basically passing that?
45:50
SPEAKER_01: Or was there other qualifications that, you know, were kind of written, unwritten?
45:54
SPEAKER_01: I mean, because men were obviously being accepted.
45:56
SPEAKER_01: What process did they have to go through?
45:58
SPEAKER_01: Just that exam?
45:58
SPEAKER_03: Aaron Powell Yeah.
45:59
SPEAKER_03: I mean the initial one to qualify would be the civil service exam if you scored a certain it was ranked based on your score.
46:06
SPEAKER_03: So they would have to go down the list.
46:09
SPEAKER_03: And so it was clear that there were women who were scoring high enough, but they still weren't being hired as police officers.
46:15
SPEAKER_03: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
46:15
SPEAKER_01: I mean I know the process now is pretty intense.
46:17
SPEAKER_01: It's way beyond that.
46:21
SPEAKER_01: Right.
46:21
SPEAKER_01: So walk us through what happened.
46:22
SPEAKER_03: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
46:23
SPEAKER_03: So these women filed a complaint with the Department of Justice, except it took the Department five years to settle it.
46:29
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
46:30
SPEAKER_03: Which is a long time.
46:31
SPEAKER_03: And it was actually when a separate chief came into office in 1979.
46:36
SPEAKER_03: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
46:36
SPEAKER_01: How did they manage to fight that off for five years?
46:39
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's impressive.
46:42
SPEAKER_01: You think somebody would have stepped in at some point.
46:44
SPEAKER_03: Right.
46:44
SPEAKER_03: Well, um in 1979, Chief Mel Tucker, who was new to the department, sat down with the Department of Justice and hammered out an agreement whereby all of the women, or most of the women, were given a settlement, which was back pay for the whole five years.
47:01
SPEAKER_03: So it was the difference between whatever they made and what they would have made as a police officer.
47:06
SPEAKER_03: Some of those women were offered also offered jobs as police officers.
47:10
SPEAKER_03: But very few.
47:11
SPEAKER_03: Most were offered the chance to come back and apply, which didn't go over very well, I think, with most of those women.
47:18
SPEAKER_01: Did any of them be end up becoming officers?
47:21
SPEAKER_01: The ones that were in the initial lawsuit?
47:23
SPEAKER_03: So there were three female employees of the department who had applied to be police officers.
47:28
SPEAKER_03: Two of them were um parking enforcement officers, which at the time was the only field job for women at the department.
47:36
SPEAKER_03: So um Almeida Sams Hunsinger and Nancy Penland both became police officers.
47:41
SPEAKER_05: All right.
47:41
SPEAKER_03: But in between the time that the initial complaint was filed and that settlement, which was five years, in early 1976, uh the department hired Beverly Lee, and she actually hit the road as our first female police officer in February of 1976.
47:58
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so she was not part of the lawsuit.
48:00
SPEAKER_03: Right.
48:00
SPEAKER_01: So but after the lawsuit began, but before it was settled, she applied and was accepted.
48:05
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
48:05
SPEAKER_01: Is there any history to her service with the APD, how long she was in the force?
48:08
SPEAKER_03: Uh I think she's on patrol for two years, and then she joined the Selective Enforcement Squad, which was a specialized unit that addressed vice and narcotics.
48:17
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
48:17
SPEAKER_01: Nothing to sneeze at there.
48:19
SPEAKER_01: Is there any real explanation as to why it took Asheville so long beyond this the simple old boys' club explanation?
48:26
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I I definitely think so.
48:29
SPEAKER_03: For a long time it was definitely a male-dominated field.
48:32
SPEAKER_03: But as time went on, the Asheville Police Department actually had a pretty good record for hiring women.
48:37
SPEAKER_03: We've hung around 20 percent of our force being women generally over the last several decades.
48:43
SPEAKER_03: Um as we all know, they are incredibly capable fleeting.
48:46
SPEAKER_01: And I know we're part of the uh 30 for 30 uh project, which is hoping to have 30 percent female officers by the year 2030.
48:52
SPEAKER_01: And as you mentioned, there's times we've been about 20 percent, been about higher.
48:55
SPEAKER_01: Right now we're a little bit lower than that, but it's a number that ebbs and flows.
48:58
SPEAKER_01: And the national average is around 14 percent.
49:01
SPEAKER_01: So we're higher than the national average already.
49:04
unknown: Yep.
49:04
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, give it up for the women.
49:07
SPEAKER_03: I will put in a plug, and I I think it's very cool that our first black female police officer was Carolyn Green.
49:13
SPEAKER_03: She is now Carolyn Logan.
49:14
SPEAKER_03: Um, she started in December 1977, but eventually she became the first black female state trooper in North Carolina in 1984.
49:22
SPEAKER_01: That's impressive.
49:23
SPEAKER_01: So there you go.
49:24
SPEAKER_01: A whole bunch of firsts as we continue to celebrate March as Women's History Month, Women Making History, all part of this episode.
49:30
SPEAKER_01: And right there you heard it from Hannah Silberman on the History Minute.
49:34
SPEAKER_01: Once again, thank you, Hannah, for sharing.
49:35
SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
49:37
SPEAKER_01: That's it for another episode of the APD Pod Squad.
49:41
SPEAKER_01: I'd like to thank my guests, retired Lieutenant Ray Ferguson, Deputy Chief Jackie Stepp, Officer Justin Lewis, and accreditation manager slash APD historian Hannah Silberman.
49:52
SPEAKER_01: On the next episode of the APD Pod Squad, as we approach the six-month anniversary of Hurricane Helene, we'll look back and have a roundtable discussion featuring some of the key players and decision makers surrounding the events in late September that none of us will ever forget.
50:09
SPEAKER_01: That's next time on the APD Pod Squad.
50:12
SPEAKER_01: I'm Rick Royce.