Latest / The Learning Corner by Precursor / Episode #40: Windsurf "Blitzhire", Demystifying Venture Speak, Founders Running "Fast and Loose"

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Episode #40: Windsurf "Blitzhire", Demystifying Venture Speak, Founders Running "Fast and Loose" · The Learning Corner by Precursor

• 0:00
  Do this job long enough.
• 0:01
  It humbles you when you go, even if I think these people are not qualified, they still
• 0:04
  might succeed.
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  So what's the benefit of saying, in very prescriptive terms, that people shouldn't do
• 0:09
  something or that they won't be successful?
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  It's the week of July 14.
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  Welcome to the Learning Corner, a Precursor Ventures podcast.
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  Welcome to the Learning Corner by Precursor.
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  I'm Mia Farnam, and I'm joined by RGP and managing partner Charles Hudson, where we will
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  be talking through the articles and Goodreads that caught our team's attention over the past
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  week.
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  Our first topic is one that has been the talk of venture and tech all weekend through early
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  this week.
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  It's the Windsurf acquisition or whatever you wanna call it.
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  Originally, in talks to be bought by OpenAI for $3,000,000,000, the deal fell through due
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  mostly to Microsoft's deep entanglements and inability to carve out Windsurf's IP, Google
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  quickly stepped in, structuring a $2,400,000,000 deal to license Windsurf's IP
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  and hierarchy staff, including the CEO.
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  This move follows a growing trend of blitz hires, a term coined by investor, Vily Itchev,
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  in his recent piece, the BlitzHire Acquisition, to describe these unconventional deals where
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  acquirers are sidestepping traditional m and a to optimize for speed in this lightning fast
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  paced world of AI.
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  These deals often involve a licensing IP, not exclusively to avoid HSR antitrust scrutiny,
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  hiring the team, and leaving the original company with people incentivized to stay a
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  little bit longer.
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  While clunky and arguably inefficient, this method allows big tech to secure top AI talent
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  without regulatory delay.
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  It raises big questions about the future of m and a and AI and how long regulators will let
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  this fly.
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  We talked about this topic for the first time, I think, two months ago, and substantial blitz
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  hires or accoliceance deals have been struck at massive scale.
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  Any new thoughts, Charles, that you've had about this or insights on what the impact of
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  these trends could be?
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  I have a lot of thoughts.
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  It was interesting reading a bunch of the commentary about people's thoughts about what
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  happens to the employees.
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  You know, obviously, senior management's getting something.
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  The investors are getting something.
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  And I think with the Cognition deal, it sounds like there's something there for the employees.
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  I have friends who work at Character Google made that acquisition.
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  So a lot of my questions are, what happens to the remnants of these companies when these
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  deals happen?
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  And I kept asking myself, what's gonna cause this?
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  I also hesitate to call it a trend because it feels like there's a finite number of talented
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  AI researchers that Google, Meta, OpenAI, Anthropic, and others wanna fight over.
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  And at some point, most of the known people will have found a home.
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  I I wouldn't build an investment strategy around this unless you had proprietary access
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  to these like AI genius people.
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  Then maybe you could do it.
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  I'm very curious about how investors are gonna feel about these deals long term.
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  We we have not heard much about what the distributions look like for investors.
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  We've heard speculation.
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  And on the one hand, I'm like, well, if you're coming in at a series b and you're getting
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  three times your money on a deal like this in relatively short period of time, that's
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  actually not bad.
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  Yeah.
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  It's not gonna make your fund, but that's not bad.
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  I kept thinking, what are the other structural things that would make these not work?
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  One would be investors would stop chasing AI talent.
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  I don't think that's gonna happen.
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  So I think the only real thing that would put the brakes on these is some kind of regulatory
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  action.
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  And a lot of people said, well, is the natural outcome of a lot of the antitrust stuff that
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  happened.
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  I'm like, well, think Figma ended up better off, which is what I thought would happen all
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  along.
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  Figma's gonna end up better off.
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  Yeah.
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  It's gonna end up being a bigger, more substantial independent company.
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  I think Facebook walking away from Yahoo, obviously, know how that turned out.
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  And so it's unclear to me whether there will be regulatory action.
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  There was at least mention that they were gonna look into the character deal.
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  I think by the time the government figures these out, investigates one, and comes up with
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  a remedy, people are like, that's fine.
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  We got the talent.
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  We got the benefit.
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  If we have to pay some future penalty, that's a fine trade.
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  Yeah.
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  I was really interested to read how many, and maybe it's just the corner of LinkedIn that I
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  hang out on.
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  The amount of people who wrote up saying this seems like kind of a raw deal for employees,
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  and should this change the way that employees think about joining hot AI startups?
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  And that, like, so much of the consideration seems to go to both the founders and the
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  investors.
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  Yeah.
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  It goes into my next question, which is more so around Cognition, which, again, was a last
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  minute surprise that happened near to the end of the Windsurf saga.
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  Cognition announced they would be acquiring basically the rest of the employees and and the
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  company of of Windsurf.
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  Certainly, this is a better outcome than setting the rest of the company out for the
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  next few years, and hopefully, of efficiencies are gained by a company like Cognition.
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  And I watched the interview between the new Windsurf CEO and the CEO of Cognition on
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  Bloomberg, and they both acknowledged these types of acquisitions are disappointing because
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  there's so much value left with all the employees who've worked their entire years.
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  And I was talking with a friend about this yesterday to your exact point of, if we do
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  enough of these, could this lead folks who are extremely talented who've been building their
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  entire life to no longer see the the big upside and advantage of being the first group of
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  engineers that join a startup?
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  I mean, during the mobile era, we saw this wave of acqui hires because Facebook didn't
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  understand mobile.
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  And a lot of people didn't have mobile, particularly iOS development talent.
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  The difference is those deals were literally one one hundredth of the size of these.
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  Those were Yeah.
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  In '20 But there was a period of time where I do remember this thinking kinda creeping into
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  VC mindset for some, which is like, I'm gonna back this team that's doing this mobile thing,
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  and if it doesn't work out, I'm pretty sure we can get the team acquihired to Facebook, Yahoo,
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  Google, or Twitter.
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  At a minimum, we'll get our money back.
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  And that worked until it didn't.
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  And then one day, Facebook and Google and Meta and all the other folks were just like, well,
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  we have the talent.
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  We know how to build out WhatsApps.
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  Getting these people in the door is no longer so urgent.
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  I wonder when that happens for AI because there are quite a few.
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  I could think of just whole categories of AI teams, whether that's like the video
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  generation, voice generation, other infrastructure companies where I wonder if
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  there'll be VCs to say, hey, like, maybe the best thing we can do, given the changing
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  landscape, is to try to get this company in front of OpenAI Corp Dev.
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  And I'm really glad that Villy wrote the piece because Villy actually knows a thing or two
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  about Corp Dev from his previous life.
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  Yeah.
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  And so he can talk, I think, in much greater depth about the nuances and specificity about
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  how these deals are structured.
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  I'll be very curious.
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  But I think if you're a talented AI researcher, it's kind of like, why shouldn't I go start my
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  own company?
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  Yeah.
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  For anyone who's listening, definitely give the full piece a read.
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  Does a great job of creating context around traditional m and a, the lengthy process,
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  etcetera.
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  If I was somebody who I guess was on, I don't know, the Google team, to no fault, waiting
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  weeks, you lose out on so much on this window of opportunity of time and AI changes every
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  month.
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  So in their brains, if you waited a year, perhaps it'd be the difference between outsized
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  success and zero ROI.
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  I talked to somebody who is one of the big AI companies on the research side and he's like,
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  look, this field is evolving so fast.
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  The people who are truly on the cutting edge are incredibly valuable because they can see
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  around the corner that's coming because they know what's happening.
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  To some extent, if you believe there's a finite pool of really talented AI researchers, it is
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  actually rational.
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  And you think that the delta between the really talented, cutting edge people and everybody
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  else is massive, it actually is zero sum.
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  You're like, hey, we need to get as many of these people as possible.
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  At some point, that information will become more diffuse maybe, but it isn't right now.
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  And I think it's interesting to see Facebook say, hey, we have this balance sheet and it's
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  not just what we can pay you, it's the number of GPU.
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  I saw the article.
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  I don't if you saw the interview with Jessica Lesson from the information just talking about
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  the package isn't just the money.
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  It's the number of GPUs.
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  It's the people you're gonna get to work with.
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  It's the whole ecosystem of stuff you get by going to one of these hyperscalers.
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  It's really hard to replicate that unless you're probably open AI or anthropic.
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  There's so many questions left in my brain about the wreckage that's left behind after
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  some of these happen and the people that have been so important to the journey the entire
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  time and where they go next.
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  This one was a good example of a new type of deal that was struck that perhaps the employees
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  of Windsurf are welcomed into a new company and can continue on and add value.
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  There's a great quote by Sonya Oja in a different piece that I read.
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  She said, quote, Windsurf may go down as the first AI startup to be acquired twice in one
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  week without ever being sold the first time.
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  One company, two exits, zero precedent.
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  I guess more to come.
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  Our next topic is written actually by a founder within the precursor portfolio, Sergio
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  Rodenzuela from Tanzu, who wrote a short but direct post on demystifying VC for new founders
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  on LinkedIn.
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  His points ranged from the fact that VCs are constantly fundraising to the unspoken but real
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  reason investors pass and the importance of understanding ownership targets during these
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  conversations between investors and founders.
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  I personally have a favorite one of his points in my brain, but I wanted to ask you if this
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  post made you think of any other knowledge imbalances that exist within the VC founder
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  dynamic.
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  It's really funny because I'm here in Boston, and I just gave a talk yesterday at TechCrunch
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  Allstage about how pre seed investors are really evaluating your company when you're
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  presenting.
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  And I think I've probably mentioned this a few times before.
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  I I'm very sympathetic to the plight of founders in this environment because when I
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  started in venture, there were no blogs.
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  There were basically no books.
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  There were no online gurus, for better or for worse, who could help you with fundraising.
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  There were no boot camps.
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  There were no classes.
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  And so it was very hard to find out what you're being evaluated on the first time we did this,
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  which is why first time founders oftentimes got raked over the coals by investors.
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  They literally didn't know what they were doing.
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  Yep.
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  And I gave this presentation yesterday, and a lot of people came up to me they're like, this
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  was really helpful.
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  And I was like, it's a good reminder to me, Mia, that you and I do this every day, all day.
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  Yeah.
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  We talk to thousands of founders every year.
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  And there's still a lot of people who don't really know.
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  And in some cases, the information they're getting is guiding them towards some traction
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  metric or some presentation tactic that may or may not work.
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  And I told the audience yesterday a lot of it is about the team, especially at BC.
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  And talking about people's teams is a delicate subject because you're oftentimes making
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  subjective decisions about people you don't know very well and you also haven't spent a ton
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  of time with.
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  And not everybody wants to hear that you think they're co founder's week.
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  Not everybody wants to hear that like, hey, don't think the two of you are the right people
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  to go after this opportunity.
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  And I think if you do this job long enough, it humbles you and you go, even if I think these
• 10:36
  people are not qualified, they still might succeed.
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  Yeah.
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  So what's the benefit of saying like, in very prescriptive terms, that people shouldn't do
• 10:43
  something or that they won't be successful?
• 10:45
  And I think it's also great that Sergio wrote this because, you know, he spends time in the
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  Midwest with a lot of founders who are not immersed in the Bay Area New York VC scene
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  where you could go find somebody in your network or on your block or in your coworking
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  space who's actually raised VC money who can give you real world experience.
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  And so I thought it was a great post.
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  I'm glad he wrote it.
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  Yeah.
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  I agree.
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  I think that was connected to one of his bullet points about when folks say the company is too
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  early.
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  It basically can mean 17 other things, including mostly the team.
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  I even found I encounter this when I talk to my co investor friends who all say that they play
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  in Pre seed.
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  I'll pass them the deal.
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  And they'll be like, too early.
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  Love this space.
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  Too early.
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  And so even us, who we spend all of our days talking to investors, talking to founders,
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  people sometimes don't even tell us on the investor side.
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  But at least I know when they mean too early for us, I'm like, it's not interesting to you
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  and that's totally fine.
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  But if you were interested, no matter how early it is, I know you'd come in.
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  And it's also interesting to me that there are people who will tell me things about companies
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  that I've sent them, knowing full well that I plan to tell that founder exactly what they
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  said, but somehow laundering it through another investor Yeah.
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  Seems to be a preferred way to deliver.
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  I'm like, you could also just tell them that you have reservations about the team or that
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  you have reservations about the TAM or you really didn't like this thing about the
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  company.
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  I'm also happy to deliver the message on your behalf without attribution, but you could also
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  do it.
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  And I don't know, I've told people some harsh stuff.
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  I've always asked for permission before I do it.
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  And I've told a few people, hey, look, I sat in this meeting with you and your co founder for
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  an hour.
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  You seem way more committed to this than he or she does.
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  Or hey, you seem to have a really relevant background and I don't know why this person I
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  told someone last week, I don't know why that third person was in the room.
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  They're like, what do you mean?
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  I don't know why this person's a part of your company as a cofounder.
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  I don't I don't understand what they're adding.
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  They might have been there at the moment of inception, and if that's, like, why they're
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  here, great.
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  But I don't understand this person's contribution or role.
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  Was that a portfolio company or a new net new investment?
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  Was investment. A
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  A Yeah.
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  Yeah.
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  Know you've been doing this for so long at Precursor.
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  How do you actually balance what to share with existing portfolio companies when you're
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  getting information direct the investor and you have to decide what should I pass through to
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  our founders?
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  What's useful to pass through?
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  And then what's just arbitrary information that maybe doesn't change and could be more harmful
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  than useful?
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  Oh, that's really hard, Mia.
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  There's two things I always think about.
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  One, is this actionable and is it useful?
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  Yeah.
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  So the first thing I tell them all, I think it's a Jessica Livingston or Paul Graham quote.
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  I'm not sure who said it, but like the gist of it is the most important information that you
• 13:17
  get in the no is the no.
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  Like whatever context is wrapped around the no.
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  I I swear it's a Jessica Livingston quote that I read one time, but maybe I'm mis attributing
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  it to her.
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  But I tell them all, first of all, they passed.
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  So whatever metadata or meta context I tell you about why they passed, it may or may not be
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  true, and it's actually not as important as the decision that they made.
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  So that's like the useful thing.
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  I'll give you an example.
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  We had a portfolio company that went out to fundraise.
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  Before they went out to fundraise, I was like, I think there's one really specific issue that
• 13:45
  we face with the business.
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  We haven't proven this thing.
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  It's reasonable for people to say, we haven't proven this thing, and to decide not to invest
• 13:52
  in the company because we have not proven this thing.
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  So if we were to fail to fundraise because people don't see evidence of this thing, I
• 13:58
  would not be surprised.
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  And the person was like, yeah, that's what happened.
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  I get it.
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  But if someone's just like, I don't like the founder, that's not actionable and it's
• 14:06
  actually not useful.
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  So sometimes I will just take that and figure out, is there a way I can deliver this message
• 14:12
  that will get through to them?
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  Because if it's, hey, the content of the presentation or the way you showed up for the
• 14:17
  meeting is different from, I just don't believe this person will succeed as the founder.
• 14:20
  And I've had some people be like, I don't see in that founder what you do.
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  I'm unimpressed by them. Does
• 14:24
  Does that person want to do with that feedback?
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  Very objective feedback.
• 14:27
  Mhmm.
• 14:27
  The most important thing is the no quote that you brought out reminds me of when I was I
• 14:33
  think it was my first year in Venture.
• 14:35
  It was the first deal that I led, and then it ended up falling apart in the end, but I had
• 14:39
  gotten really close to that founder.
• 14:40
  And I remember trying to, like, structure a good email to kind of follow-up on the news
• 14:44
  that we're not gonna actually come in.
• 14:45
  And I remember reaching out to my friend who's a founder and recently just raised their series
• 14:49
  a yesterday.
• 14:51
  So it's fun to see all of that come full circle.
• 14:53
  But I was like, what's the best way to communicate no?
• 14:56
  And should I add this and this?
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  And she was like, listen, I just went through the worst pre seed seed fundraising period ever
• 15:02
  just saying no.
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  It doesn't really matter what additional fluff you put around it.
• 15:05
  Make it sound genuine that you at least listened and you thought about me, but this
• 15:09
  additional paragraphs that you wanna add of you're cheering for me and you're rooting for
• 15:13
  me, just say that you'd wanna stay in touch with updates.
• 15:15
  And when I do actually reach out, please opt in for the call.
• 15:18
  But anything other than that, I've already moved on.
• 15:20
  Also, I always just tell people at the beginning of the email, I'm not investing.
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  Almost all of my past emails have the same basic structure.
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  Thank you for your time because they gave us their time.
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  I made the decision not to invest, And you can stop reading there.
• 15:32
  Yes.
• 15:32
  Don't make them dig around for
• 15:34
  Don't them dig.
• 15:34
  So people are like, well, why do you put it up front?
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  And like, because that's the answer.
• 15:38
  It's business writing one zero one.
• 15:39
  Right.
• 15:39
  You don't put the conclusion at the end.
• 15:41
  You put the conclusion at the top.
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  And I'll tell them, like, here's what I liked about the business, and this is the thing I got
• 15:45
  stuck on.
• 15:45
  You might not think that was a good thing to get stuck on, but this is what I got stuck on.
• 15:50
  And I don't get it right every time.
• 15:52
  And if I wanna keep in touch, I'll say, let's stay in touch.
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  Otherwise, I'll just tell people, hope you're successful.
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  I don't
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  Like, you don't owe me anything.
• 15:57
  Like You
• 15:57
  don't owe me anything.
• 15:58
  That's funny.
• 15:59
  And and sometimes with our interns, I'm like, that's too many to
• 16:02
  say, though.
• 16:02
  We need to, like, compress the stock.
• 16:04
  And even I find myself, I'm like, that is it's too much.
• 16:07
  Because, like, if you add too much pros about it in the beginning, I think everyone wants to
• 16:10
  do pro con, pro sandwich when they send an email.
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  I'm like Yeah.
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  Okay.
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  If you had that many pros about it, you would have just Why do invest?
• 16:16
  The investment.
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  Tell them what they need to hear and let them go on with their Our last topic is a really
• 16:22
  entertaining read by Jared Hecht, one of the founders of GroupMe who is now at USB, who
• 16:27
  walks through the realities of what happens when young founders play it fast and loose
• 16:31
  during their fundraising process.
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  He reflected on doing it himself while building GroupMe, assuming every big name VC was foaming
• 16:39
  at the mouth to join their cap table early on in the journey.
• 16:43
  That approach created momentum in some ways, but also led to some hilariously unfortunate
• 16:48
  blunders, which he shares about in his post.
• 16:51
  The two main takeaways for readers were one, all founders mess up, and that's okay.
• 16:57
  And two, reclaiming a bit of intentionality even while moving fast can perhaps save you a
• 17:03
  lot of headaches down the road.
• 17:05
  I think similar to our last topic by Sergio, there is this unspoken balance of pace and
• 17:12
  mystery that most, not all, but most investors want founders to strike to build that right
• 17:17
  level of excitement about a deal.
• 17:20
  Where do you think being fast and loose works well as early founders?
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  And where do you think it crosses the line and does more of a disservice?
• 17:29
  I think it does a disservice if the things that you say are gonna happen don't come to pass.
• 17:35
  So obviously the worst thing you can do is lie and say somebody is in.
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  And I saw that happen one time maybe ten years ago.
• 17:41
  And the firm that they said was in made that founder write an email to everybody who they
• 17:46
  had told and copy them on it saying, I misrepresented the firm's interest.
• 17:51
  They are not investing in our round.
• 17:53
  And it was a first time founder and I don't know whether he misunderstood or if he was
• 17:57
  trying to, like I can just give you some recent examples.
• 18:00
  There's a bunch of AI related companies that I've met that are day one companies, and I've
• 18:04
  gotten introduced to them.
• 18:05
  The person's like, well, they're meeting with Benchmark Sequoia and Andreessen week.
• 18:10
  So if you wanna get to the front of line, you gotta do it now.
• 18:12
  I'm like, okay.
• 18:12
  So they have a meeting.
• 18:13
  Okay.
• 18:14
  That's useful information.
• 18:15
  I'm glad they got those meetings.
• 18:16
  I don't know anything about what that means.
• 18:19
  But, okay, that's a plus one on the FOMO scale.
• 18:22
  And then see what, oh, they're going to partner meeting with this firm.
• 18:24
  And I'm like, yeah, but that firm doesn't take seed investing seriously.
• 18:28
  And so yes, it is possible that they're gonna get three on 30 from some big firm that doesn't
• 18:32
  take seed seriously.
• 18:33
  So I don't know.
• 18:34
  I I feel like if you have real interest, I think at this point in my career, I'm pretty
• 18:38
  good at sniffing out when a deal is hot and why.
• 18:42
  So sometimes I meet a founder, I'm like, oh, I get it.
• 18:44
  This person's super compelling, and I think everybody who meets him or her is gonna see in
• 18:49
  him or her what I see in them.
• 18:50
  And so whether there's FOMO or not, this feels like one I have to move quickly on.
• 18:54
  And there's others where I feel like the person's constantly telling me that they're on
• 18:56
  the cusp of something and I'm like, if you were really meeting with Sequoia, you wouldn't be
• 19:00
  reminding me that you have another meeting with Sequoia.
• 19:02
  You'd be focused on your
• 19:03
  You'd spending time with them.
• 19:04
  Yeah.
• 19:04
  You actually wouldn't probably even respond to my email.
• 19:06
  So I think there is the art of, I tell our companies all the time when they're
• 19:11
  fundraising, at most firms, if you wanna get your deal done, have to be the number one or
• 19:15
  number two priority for that person at that point in time.
• 19:18
  And if you're not, they'll still work on the deal.
• 19:21
  It's just you're not gonna feel momentum.
• 19:23
  And a couple times I've misread it.
• 19:25
  I've been like, this thing doesn't feel like it's got heat around it.
• 19:27
  And it turns out that like it did.
• 19:29
  I just misread the signal.
• 19:30
  In other cases, I've had people who told me they're on the cusp of getting a term sheet and
• 19:34
  six months later they're still in market.
• 19:35
  And I'm like, either you misread it or you were trying to deceive me.
• 19:38
  Either way, I'm glad I didn't invest in the company.
• 19:40
  I've had one of those cases where I think maybe from an investor standpoint, I just should have
• 19:44
  leaned into my gut a lot more and just had conviction areas.
• 19:47
  I waffled a little bit more on a deal that I was like, I really like this person.
• 19:50
  I like their idea.
• 19:51
  Maybe I'll take another week to just make sure I understand the market enough.
• 19:54
  And at that time that I talked to them, no one was interested.
• 19:56
  Yep.
• 19:56
  Like, no one really was really talking to them.
• 19:58
  So in my brain, I've got time.
• 19:59
  And then lo and behold, two weeks later, when I come back, I'm like, love to kick off this
• 20:03
  diligence process.
• 20:04
  They're like, well, it's done now.
• 20:05
  Good.
• 20:05
  I was the first of the line here, and then this is where we've ended.
• 20:09
  And most of it was not really even due to the founder's behavior.
• 20:11
  It was due to me just not just executing on conviction, and that's just something you have
• 20:15
  to build over time.
• 20:16
  I told one of our LPs, I have good news and bad news for you.
• 20:19
  I said, many of our best investments are companies I committed to essentially at the end
• 20:24
  of our first meeting.
• 20:25
  In my mind, was like, we're definitely gonna make this investment.
• 20:27
  And in those cases, speed was part of the reason we got into the deal.
• 20:31
  Also, some of our worst performing investments are also companies I committed to at the end.
• 20:35
  And so my view is that speed is an input to the process.
• 20:40
  And I think particularly if you're doing early stage AI stuff.
• 20:43
  I lost something recently because I thought I had communicated to the founders that we were
• 20:47
  in and they closed the round.
• 20:49
  They're like, well, we didn't understand that that's what you meant.
• 20:51
  Either I wasn't clear enough or you decided there was somebody else you'd rather work with.
• 20:54
  In either case, I didn't apply the right amount of attention to that opportunity and I didn't
• 20:58
  get it.
• 20:59
  My one piece of advice, because I recently saw it last week and I did tell the founder after,
• 21:02
  try not to put the names of the investors on a slide of who you're talking to because I will
• 21:09
  always have a record of that moving forward.
• 21:11
  And then I also had finished the call, Charles, and I was like, oh, I'm gonna be on this slide
• 21:16
  in a week now even though, like, I don't even know.
• 21:19
  We're gonna continue on.
• 21:20
  I'll also say I'm also sympathetic to people who make mistakes.
• 21:24
  I had somebody who was like, oh, I heard precursor's really digging on this company.
• 21:28
  I'm like, I haven't met with them.
• 21:29
  Let me look in Affinity.
• 21:30
  And was like, one of us had had one meeting with the company.
• 21:32
  No one had ever mentioned it to me, and I'm thinking, did the founder misrepresent it?
• 21:36
  Or did something get lost in the game of telephone where the person said, oh, I've had a
• 21:40
  meeting with them, and, like, they're gonna get back to me.
• 21:42
  And for all intents and purposes, that's what VCs say at the end of every meeting is I'm
• 21:45
  gonna take a closer look.
• 21:46
  So that's also what I would think as a founder too, until you tell me you've passed, is that
• 21:50
  you are digging in when the reality is mostly they're probably not if they haven't come back
• 21:54
  to you with tons of questions Yeah.
• 21:56
  It's not top priority.
• 21:57
  It could take them longer to dig in the way that they've promised you.
• 22:01
  Well, we are all out of time today.
• 22:02
  Thank you so much, Charles, for jumping in.
• 22:05
  Thank you to our listeners for listening well.
• 22:07
  Please like and subscribe, and we will talk with you all next week.
• 22:10
  Thank you.
• 22:11
  Bye.