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Do You Have Any Control Left? · Not a Doorknob

• 0:00
  Hey, welcome back to The Big Book Deep Dive here on Progress and Perfection. You can find more information on our website. You can contact us. All the links for that will be in the description below. My name is Amon.
• 0:10
  I'm joined by my good friend, John. Here we go. Me and my buddy were just like, "Oh, my God." [laughs] Like, trying not to look 'cause it was like, "Oh, my God." Like, "Ah." [laughs] "What in the world?" You know?
• 0:21
  And then of course there's, like, these two, like, meathead bros that come out, and it's like, well, we know what they're doing there. Yeah. The, the staple bros. Yeah. We know what they're doing there.
• 0:30
  [laughs] They're not there for the hot yoga. [laughs] Let's give you a break. Oh. Dude, are we on chapter four? We're, we're at a new chapter, my friend.
• 0:36
  Dude, but I mean, I feel like this is, this is, uh, this is kinda big. You know, this is kind of the beginning of the second step. Yep. Laying out the second step stuff. This is the...
• 0:47
  If there's, if there is controversy, I think, in the AA community, it has to do with, not this chapter specifically, but this topic. Big time. You know, where does, where does God, where does spirituality fit in?
• 1:01
  Where does God fit in? Um- How do we describe and define God? Yeah. How do we allow God to be described and defined? Yeah.
• 1:10
  Um- And then, like, I don't, it's kinda like following up with what we talked about last time at the end, like, how important is it that that description of God is accurate? Yeah.
• 1:22
  Um, you know, can it be something that's, that's, uh, a little bit [laughs] what I'll say, a little bit more willy-nilly- Mm-hmm... or does it need to have some substance, some teeth to it? Mm-hmm. Um,
• 1:35
  let's just, let's see what the, see what The Big Book has to say about it. Let's check it out. You want me to start? Yeah, man. Chapter four: We Agnostics.
• 1:46
  In the preceding chapters you've learned something of alcoholism. We hope we've, we've made clear the distinction between the alcoholic and the nonalcoholic.
• 1:57
  If when you honestly want to, you find you cannot quit entirely, or if when drinking you have little control over the amount you take, you're probably alcoholic.
• 2:07
  Now, if that's not a great one-sentence definition, I don't know what is. I was getting ready to say, like, the perfect summary of everything that's come before. Fan- yeah, fantastic litmus test. Yeah.
• 2:16
  Summs everything up, up to this point. So it's like, okay, here's the test, and next, if that be the case, you may be suffering from an illness which only a spiritual experience- Mm-hmm... will conquer. Solution.
• 2:31
  So out of the gate, they continue to be very clear that spirituality is required for the solution- Mm... to this problem. Yeah. If, if in fact this is the problem that we've got. Right. Like, if, if we fit the bill.
• 2:45
  Mm-hmm. All right. To one who feels he is an atheist or agnostic, such an experience seems impossible, but to continue as he is means disaster, especially if he is an alcoholic of the hopeless variety.
• 3:02
  To be doomed to an alcoholic death or to live on a spiritual basis are not always easy alternatives to face. I've got written in, [clears throat] excuse me, in my margin there, that that should be- Mm...
• 3:15
  an easy decision. Hmm. And yet it's not. Hmm. Much more difficult for some than others- Hmm... but it's like, okay, well, doomed to death- Hmm... or to live on a spiritual basis, and we've gotta think about that. Mm-hmm.
• 3:28
  You know, when, when it comes down to brass tacks- Mm, mm... it's like that's, that's an actual... It's not a no-brainer for us for some reason. Right. Right. Right. Yeah, why, wh- [laughs]
• 3:39
  I gotta ask, why isn't it a no-brainer? [laughs] Well, that's one of the, the, the curious m- I think it's, talks about the curious mental quirk somewhere in here- Mm-hmm... with alcoholism, uh, is just this obsession.
• 3:53
  It goes back to what we've previously talked about, that somehow, someday, I am going to- Yeah... break through the mold. Yep. And I am going to figure out how to enjoy it like I used to enjoy it. Right.
• 4:07
  So it's just, it's fantasy. I mean, and, and it becomes apparent at a certain point that, that it is a fantasy that we're- Hmm... chasing after. Mm-hmm.
• 4:15
  But it's so alluring for so long, that we're stuck on that decision. Right. It's like, "Well, eh, I'm, I don't think I'm gonna die yet." Mm, mm. "And I do think there's still a chance."
• 4:26
  It's like the Dumb and Dumber, "So you're saying- Right... there's a chance." Right. [laughs] Right. That I can still enjoy it. [laughs] Give me that chance. Right. Right.
• 4:33
  [laughs] Uh, the, do you remember that scene where I think he's drinking beer in the car or something, and they get pulled over, and the cop drinks, and, like, I forget, one of 'em pees- Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah...
• 4:43
  in one of the bottles- Pees in the bottle... and the cop drinks it. Yeah, that's a great scene. [laughs] That's a great movie. Um- Classic... when that's... Yeah.
• 4:49
  Oh, uh, okay, so, like, what's, uh, I don't know that the, that the book actually does this. Like, what's the difference between an atheist and an agnostic?
• 4:59
  Uh- Why, why is this book called We Agnostics, as opposed to We Atheists and We Agnostics? Yeah. We, we should, we should throw a link to the definitions- Mm-hmm... 'cause I get 'em mixed up.
• 5:09
  One of 'em acknowledges that there is God, but he cannot be known personally. Mm-hmm. He has nothing. You kind of have a, a force of nature. Right. This is my understanding. Right. Right.
• 5:22
  And then I think- I think that's agnostic... think that's agnostic. Yeah. And then atheist is, like, there is no God. Right. Like- Right... th- this is all there is. Mm-hmm. You know, there's nothing. So why...
• 5:31
  And I mean, I don't know that we know the answer to this, but just curious, why is it just We Agnostics? Why isn't it We Atheists and Agnostics? My personal thinking is that you really do have to round the corner- Hmm...
• 5:43
  from atheism into at least agnosticism- Mm-hmm... to make any sort of progress. Yeah. Like, a, an outright atheist, and I've never been one, so I can't intelligently speak towards this.
• 5:56
  I know there's intelligent atheists- Right... out there. If you're out there, please let us know. Please let us know your thinking here. Mm-hmm. But if you don't believe in anything, you can't pursue anything. Sure.
• 6:08
  And the solution therefore, if there is a drinking problem, must come- From within Right. Right So kind of none of this applies? Sure. Right. Yeah. What are your thoughts on that? Uh, yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm like you.
• 6:20
  It, it, it's, it's tough to say, but, uh, I think m- my gut says, like, if you're an atheist, you don't have spirituality. Mm-hmm. And you can't apply a spiritual principle or a spiritual solution,
• 6:37
  uh, if there is no spirituality, if you don't believe in spirituality. Yeah. Um, and so, like, that would be my, that would be my guess, is that if you don't believe in, in, you know, the sort of the spirit,
• 6:50
  spirituality or, or whatever that w- whatever that means- Mm-hmm... you know, uh, I don't know why, but I'm thinking of, like, even Native Americans had spirituality because they did believe in the, in a god. Right.
• 7:01
  You know? Right. And they, and they would, they would exhibit spirituality and practice spirituality.
• 7:07
  And so yeah, I guess that would be my gut, would be like, if I'm an atheist and I don't believe there's a god and I don't believe in spirituality, what are you talking about? Yeah.
• 7:13
  You know, that's something ethereal that you can't measure, that's not, um, tangible, you know, it's not... Uh, it's more naturalistic, more of a naturalistic view as opposed to, like, a spiritual view. Mm-hmm.
• 7:26
  I don't know. We'll see. I don't know. They may, they may weigh into that here- Mm... in a minute. Don't know. [lips smack] Uh, all right, I'm gonna pick up the reading here. "But it isn't so difficult."
• 7:38
  And they, they just got done saying, "To be doomed to an alcoholic death or to live on spiritual basis are not always easy alternatives to face, but it isn't so difficult.
• 7:47
  About half our original fellowship were of exactly that type.
• 7:52
  At first, some of us tried to avoid the issue, hoping against hope we were not true alcoholics, but after a while, we had to face the fact that we must find a spiritual basis of life or else.
• 8:06
  Perhaps it's going to be that way with you. But cheer up. Something like half of us thought we were atheists or agnostics." All right, so they had, they were a mixed bag there. Mm-hmm.
• 8:17
  "Our experience shows that you need not be disconcerted." And that original group, is that, are they referring to, what, the Oxford Group maybe? I, I, I believe this is the original hundred-odd members- Okay...
• 8:30
  of AA- Okay. Okay... af- after AA was formed. Gotcha. Okay. So yeah, okay. "If a mere code of morals or a better philosophy of life were sufficient to overcome alcoholism, many of us would have recovered long ago.
• 8:44
  But we found that such codes and philosophies did not save us, no matter how much we tried. We could wish to be moral. We could wish to be philosophically comforted.
• 8:54
  In fact, we could will these things with all our might, but the needed power wasn't there. Our human resources, as marshaled by the will, were not sufficient. They failed utterly." Utterly. And this is a big paragraph.
• 9:08
  It's a short paragraph- Yeah... but this next one here is, is kind of the crux of everything. Yep. "Lack of power, that was our dilemma.
• 9:16
  We had to find a power by which we could live, and it had to be a Power greater than ourselves, obviously. But where and how were we to find this power?"
• 9:28
  Something unique about the writing of that paragraph also is that the P in power is capitalized. Sure is. Not the first time, because it's a different kind of power they're referring to. Yep.
• 9:39
  But then the next, uh, well, first and second time. Then the last two times where they mention power, it's a capital P Power. Yeah. And, and that's a good point. Mm-hmm.
• 9:48
  I've never, I've never remarked on that in this passage before. Mm-hmm. 'Cause we, we have tried on our own power to- Lowercase p... to figure this out. Yeah. Lowercase p. And so their conclusion- Mm-hmm...
• 10:01
  the, the first hundred after writing this book, is that, "Well, we've tried it all." Right. "If we could have, we would have." Right. "But we can't, and we haven't." Yeah.
• 10:09
  So there's gotta be, in the shortest sentence in the Big Book, "Obviously." Mm-hmm. There's gotta be a way out, and it's gotta be a Power, capital P- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm... greater than us. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I, I just,
• 10:22
  that's always been a, a unique little twist there. Hmm. And I think that's a very purposeful twist. You know, it's the difference between lowercase g god equating to lowercase p power- Yeah... and capital G God- Yeah...
• 10:37
  and capital P Power. Obviously. Mm-hmm. So what's this book about, John? What's the purpose? Well, that's exactly what this book is about.
• 10:50
  "Its main object is to enable you to find a Power greater than yourself which will solve your problem.
• 10:56
  That means we have written a book which we believe to be spiritual as well as moral, and it means, of course, that we are going to talk about God. Here, difficulty arises with agnostics.
• 11:07
  Many times we talk to a new man and watch his hope rise as we discuss his alcoholic problems and explain our fellowship, but his face f- his face falls when we speak s- of spiritual matters, especially when we mention God, for we have reopened a subject which our man thought he had neatly evaded or entirely ignored."
• 11:29
  And I, I was talking to a friend earlier today about this exact thing. Like, okay, the, the whole purpose of this book is to find a power greater than ourselves. Mm-hmm. And they name it God here, so capital G, God.
• 11:43
  Right. Um, and, and the whole purpose of working through the steps of this book is so that we can show somebody else the way through the steps- Right...
• 11:52
  to pass it on, to carry it on, to share our experience, strength, and hope. But, uh, w- I, I feel like often in AA, we complicate- Hmm... simple matters. Mm-hmm. And, and this is, I always point back to this passage.
• 12:07
  Mm-hmm. Like, the point of the book is to find God. Right. Like, it all, it all goes back down to that. Right. Right. Right. Even for atheists. Right. Even for agnostics. Right. That's the hope Right.
• 12:18
  Yeah, and I think it's, it's, uh, it's, it's kind of, uh, ironic, kind of interesting, uh, that line where, man, we can make connection when we're talking about our addiction. Mm.
• 12:31
  You know, that's common language for virtually everybody that is, uh, in the rooms, when we talk about our addiction. Yeah. But then just like it's saying, suddenly we bring in this concept of God or spirituality,
• 12:45
  and you lose people. Mm. You know? So I think that's... I, I don't know. There's something slightly ironic, uh, about that. Big time. I mean, so much so we got a whole chapter devoted to- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm...
• 13:01
  to this one class of people. Right. This one subset of the second step. Mm-hmm. Yeah. How many, um, how many people... I don't know.
• 13:12
  You can bleep this out if you need to, 'cause it may not be appropriate, but how many people in your group are agnostics or atheists,
• 13:19
  in the group that you, uh- Yeah, I don't know that any are outright, have outright said that. I, I don't think that any are. Mm-hmm. Um, and,
• 13:29
  and you know, it, I feel as though it's become less of a thing, at least in the crowds and groups and circles that I've been around, than maybe it, it was- Mm... in previous years. Hmm. It seems more,
• 13:43
  uh, more popular to believe in God. Now, whether that's some sanitized version of an idea of God or not, but- Mm-hmm... but to at least give lip service to it- Mm-hmm...
• 13:54
  seems more common, and it's what I've experienced more with- Mm-hmm... the folks that I've encountered. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, you know, I, yeah, that's good.
• 14:03
  Uh, and I guess that like just thinking about it briefly, it makes sense. Mm-hmm. Because, like, if, if, if tolerance is the, the social, [laughs] uh, goal these days- Yeah... then, uh, anti-God isn't- Yeah... tolerant.
• 14:18
  Yeah, it, it tracks with, with- Yeah, like-... kind of the cultural... I think when we were, you know, back in the '90s, it was great to be anti-God. Yep. You could do that, because tolerance, it wasn't about tolerance.
• 14:27
  Right. You know, but nowadays it's like, "No, we can tolerate that." Tolerate it all. Yeah. Any this, that, and the other. Mm-hmm. Uh, okay, "We know how he feels. We have shared his honest doubt and prejudice.
• 14:40
  Some of us have been violently anti-religious." That's me. Uh, "To others, the word God brought up a particular idea of Him," capital H, "with which someone had tried to impress them during childhood.
• 14:53
  Perhaps we rejected this particular conc- this particular conception because it seemed inadequate. With that rejection, we imagined we had abandoned the God idea entirely.
• 15:04
  We were bothered with the thought that faith and dependence upon a power beyond ourselves was somewhat weak, even cowardly.
• 15:11
  We look upon this world of warring individuals, warring theological systems, and inexplicable calamity with a deep skepticism. We looked askance at many, at many individuals who claimed to be godly.
• 15:25
  How could such a supreme being have anything to do with it all? And who could comprehend a supreme being anyhow?
• 15:33
  Yet, in other moments, we found ourselves thinking, when enchanted by a starlit night, 'Who then made all this?' There was a freeing awe and wonder, but it was fleeting and soon lost.
• 15:45
  Yes, we of agnostic temperament have had these thoughts and experiences. Let us make haste to reassure you.
• 15:52
  We found that as soon as we are able to lay aside prejudice and express even a willingness to believe in a power greater than ourselves, we commenced to get results, even though it was impossible for any of us to fully define or comprehend that power, which is God."
• 16:09
  Hmm. Hmm. That's pretty declarative. What do you think about that? Uh, that's a declarative, pretty poignant, uh, statement there, which I feel like doesn't, uh,
• 16:24
  allow for, uh, the loosey-goosey, uh [laughs]... sort of like, "Your power, that power can be anything." I feel like that's a pretty declarative statement from the writers of the book.
• 16:39
  It also is willing to say, like, "We don't really know how to define this word God- Mm-hmm... but we, we say that this power is God." Capital P, capital G. Yeah. So I, I, I don't know.
• 16:54
  I feel like [laughs] there, I feel like there's something to that, you know? They, they do, uh... I, I think they do a real good job- Mm-hmm... in this chapter, particularly in spots like this- Mm-hmm...
• 17:07
  of calling out exactly- Hmm... what it is without really- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm... um, w- without alienizing somebody that's on the fence. Right, right. And to- Right... our previous conversations- Right...
• 17:18
  that's what's always really been attractive to me- Mm-hmm... in working with people that maybe are on the fence. Mm-hmm. It's like, "You know what?" Mm-hmm. "I, I feel you." Right, right, right. "And, and that's okay.
• 17:29
  You, you're at your, where you're at. You know, God willing, that'll change." Mm-hmm. "But you don't need- Mm-hmm... to get hung up here so that you stagnate, and eventually that leads to drinking." That's right.
• 17:39
  I mean, that, that... It always leads to drinking. If we're not- Right... going forward, we're- Right... we're gonna slip back. Right. And so this- Mm-hmm...
• 17:45
  it's like, as soon as we're able to lay aside prejudice- Right... and even express this willingness to believe- Mm-hmm... not even an expression of belief- Right... but of- Right... "Okay," you know. Yes.
• 17:56
  "I'll come back tomorrow." I'm willing to- Like-... explore this... I'll go further. Mm-hmm. We'll keep reading, all that. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. That we comm- It says here, "We commenced to see results."
• 18:07
  And to me, that is not, "Okay, we're white as snow," and, and- That's right... like, "This is salvation." Right. And it's not any of that. Right. But- Right...
• 18:15
  but there can be really positive, formative, important, and forward-leaning results as a result of that simple- Right... stance of openness. Yeah. Yeah.
• 18:27
  Yeah, and I think, like, this is kind of also, this is an answer to the first question we posed, uh, why is it we agnostic? Mm. They're basically drawing a line in the sand there- Yeah... and saying that, like,
• 18:42
  because God has to be involved, therefore atheism isn't going to work. [laughs] Yeah. It, it, it, it has to be a call to at least, at very least agnosticism. And then to follow up your point,
• 18:57
  beyond that, there has to be a willingness to explore, okay, if it is God- Mm-hmm... what is this God? Who is this God? This willingness to take on the journey and, and into, and engage the process.
• 19:13
  It, it makes me think, we've mentioned the acronym HOW- Mm-hmm... before, how it works, honesty, open-mindedness, and willingness. Yeah. Like, a- am I, you know- Mm...
• 19:22
  if, if I'm agnostic, have I really been honest and really honestly looked at this worldview- Mm... and have I honestly looked at the alternative? Mm-hmm. Am I open at this point in sobriety? Mm.
• 19:35
  And am I, you know, if I am open, am I willing to take the step forward to keep exploring? Yeah. And I mean, that, that literally is how it can begin working. Right. Right. That's great. Yeah.
• 19:48
  Uh, "Much to our relief, we discovered we did not need to consider another's conception of God. Our own conception, however inadequate, was sufficient to make the approach and to effect a contact with Him.
• 20:01
  As soon as we admitted the possible existence of a creative intelligence, a spirit of the universe underlying the totality of things, we began to be possessed of a new sense of power and direction, provided we took other simple steps.
• 20:15
  We found that God does not make too hard terms with those who seek Him. To us, the realm of spirit is broad, roomy, all-inclusive, never exclusive or forbidding to those who earnestly seek.
• 20:28
  It is open, we believe, to all men." Uh, lots, again, like, lots of, of capitalized words. Mm-hmm. You guys can take a look at that on page 46. Uh, and I, I don't, I don't think that's an, that's an accident.
• 20:44
  But I do think, like, there, there, that statement in there gets so twisted, and it's taken out of context. "Our own conception, however inadequate, was sufficient to make the approach and to effect a contact with Him."
• 20:58
  Uh, that allows the free interpretation- Yeah... that God can be anything. Yeah. But if you, if you look at it in the context of the paragraph, it makes it clear that that's not the point. Mm-hmm.
• 21:11
  Um, that next sentence, "As soon as we admitted the possible existence of a creative intelligence, a spirit of the universe underlying the totality of things, we began to be possessed of a new sense of power and direction, provided we took other simple steps."
• 21:28
  I don't know. To me, that speaks, like, uh, it's corrective- Hmm... in terms of, uh, of aim. That yes, it, it, that first sentence, uh, seemingly in and of itself allows for freedom of interpretation. But as most things,
• 21:46
  that's out of context. Yeah. If you put it back in- If you take it by itself only, yeah. That's right.
• 21:49
  If you put it back into the context of the paragraph that it's written, I think it obviously is referring to something that is, uh, a little bit more, um, within certain guardrails than just a, a free interpretation.
• 22:06
  But I think, again, like, the, the, the most loving part of that whole entire paragraph is the last part. All-inclusive, roomy. It's broad. It's roomy. Never exclusive. 100%. Yeah.
• 22:22
  All-inclusive, never exclusive or forbidding for those who earnestly seek it, open to all men. Uh, man, I just love that, you know, because I do... I think, like, we as believers get sort of boxed in by
• 22:37
  some elements of society as just being this, like, exclusive. Mm-hmm. "Oh, you guys think you're so special," you know? "You think God loves you and doesn't love other people." And it's like, no, no, no, no, no.
• 22:48
  You know, I, uh, I just love that principle, and love how they declare that statement there. "When, therefore, we speak to you of God, we mean your own conception of God.
• 23:01
  This applies, too, to other spiritual expressions which you find in this book. Do not let any prejudice you may have against spiritual terms deter you from honestly asking yourself what they mean to you.
• 23:14
  At the start, this, this was all we needed to commence spiritual growth, to effect our first conscious relation with God as we understood Him.
• 23:23
  Afterward, we found ourselves accepting many things which then seemed entirely out of reach. That was growth. But if we wished to grow, we had to begin somewhere. So we used our own conception, however limited it was.
• 23:38
  We needed to ask ourselves but one short question. 'Do I now believe, or am I even willing to believe, that there is a power greater than myself?'" I have out there, "yes" in, uh, capital letters [laughs] Mm...
• 23:54
  uh, in the margin. "As soon as a man can say that he does believe or is willing to believe, we emphatically assure him that he is on his way.
• 24:03
  It has been repeatedly proven among us that upon this simple cornerstone, a wonderfully effective spiritual structure can be built." Uh, that's awesome. That's a awesome...
• 24:18
  That's a awesome parallel to that verse in scripture. I don't know. I'm not a scripture expert by any means. Uh, but where it just describes Christ as the cornerstone. Mm-hmm. And upon this cornerstone...
• 24:31
  Like, you know, I just, I just think the, uh, I don't know. It's, it- You can't ignore that No You know what I'm saying? The church, I think, the church is built on- Right... that cornerstone- Right...
• 24:42
  something to that effect. Right. Right. Yeah, and, and it, it, like, that's not an accident- Mm... that they put that in there. Mm-hmm. And they, they worded it that way.
• 24:51
  "That was great news to us, for we had as- for we had assumed we could not make use of spiritual principles unless we accepted many things on faith which seemed difficult to believe.
• 25:03
  When people presented us with spiritual approaches, how frequently did we all say, 'I wish I had what that man has. I'm sure it would work if I could only believe as he believes.
• 25:13
  But I cannot accept the surely true, the many articles of faith which are so plain to him.' So it was comforting to learn that we could commence at a simpler level." And you know that I feel as though this is a- Mm...
• 25:29
  a fantastic example of the tendency we have to compare our insides with- Mm... your outsides. Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. Oh, well, if I had faith like them, you know?
• 25:40
  Not knowing what that actual faith feels and looks like on the inside- Right...
• 25:47
  because I don't know about you, but there's all kinds of things in my Christian faith and with God that w- will remain mysteries for my entire life- Right... probably. Right.
• 25:58
  And part of my walk with Christ is reconciling the mystery of that- Mm... with the walk that I'm supposed to be living down here, and, and, you know, kind of rejoicing in that- Mm...
• 26:14
  rather than thinking I've got to figure- That's right... everything out. Yeah. And I've got to tie up every loose end, and it's gonna be a, you know, a movie plot that just wraps itself up and is self-contained. Right.
• 26:25
  Like that's- Right... you know, there, there are mysteries to this. Right. I don't understand why crap happens- Mm. Mm-hmm... you know, and all, all of the above. Mm. Mm-hmm.
• 26:33
  And I, I think that that's a, a, should be a freeing thing for those that come in- For sure... especially with agnostic tendencies- For sure... at the least of like- For sure... you know.
• 26:44
  No, we don't, we don't have everything figured out. Right. We got some stuff figured out. Right. We know how to s- not drink. Right. We've found some freedom. We've found some- Mm... some peace- Mm-hmm...
• 26:54
  some good stuff that are necessary, but, but [laughs] nowhere near the whole thing. Well, yeah, and I think it, it, it, uh... Two thoughts. One, it reiterates the, the point you made a couple of weeks ago.
• 27:08
  Like, there's no need to overcomplicate it- Mm... and get caught up in all of the weeds, that the, the, what they're asking about here or what they're suggesting here is something that's very simple- Mm...
• 27:18
  and it's very tangible. Um, and the parallel that strikes me is just, like, the simplicity of the gospel. Like, believe in me and be saved. Mm-hmm. That's it. Like, that's the requirement.
• 27:33
  Uh, it's not complicated, and we can make it complicated- Mm-hmm... 'cause then all of a sudden if you, if you look at the other guy and he's, like, some kind of theologian- Mm...
• 27:42
  it's like, "Oh, I'll never get all this stuff figured out," just like- Mm... you were saying, and sort of not accept the mystery of so much of what we believe in. Uh, it can look as something that is unattainable. Mm.
• 27:54
  You know, but Christ himself, like, made it very, very simple. "Come to me and I will give you rest." Like, believe in me and you will be saved. Believe in me and, you know, this day you will be with me in eternity.
• 28:07
  Super simple stuff. That guy on the cross, he didn't have a chance to figure all this stuff out. Mm. Mm. You know what I'm saying? It was light- lights out in an hour. He's on his death... Right. He's on his deathbed.
• 28:16
  Like, it's- Yeah... it's freaking curtains for that dude. Yeah. But Christ turns to him and says, "Nah, brother. Today you'll be with me in paradise." He didn't have his life to figure it all out.
• 28:28
  He had a moment, you know? And so I think, I, I just think that's a neat parallel also- Mm... to what they're really leaning into, um, in this chapter. All right. Read for us.
• 28:41
  "Besides a seeming inability to accept much on faith, we often found ourselves handicapped by obstinacy, sensitiveness, and unreasoning prejudice.
• 28:54
  Many of us have been so touchy that even casual reference to spiritual things made us bristle with antagonism. This sort of thinking had to be abandoned." And I've got, "Be open-minded," written in the margin here.
• 29:07
  It's like, just be open. Mm. "Though some of us resisted, we found no great difficulty in casting aside such feelings.
• 29:15
  Faced with alcoholic destruction, we soon became as open-minded on spiritual matters as we had tried to be on other questions. In this respect, alcohol was a great persuader. It finally beat us into a state- Hmm...
• 29:30
  of reasonableness. Sometimes this was a tedious process. We hope no one else will be prejudiced for as long as some of us were. The reader may still ask why he should believe in a power greater than himself.
• 29:46
  We think they're good reasons. Let us have a look at some of them. The practical individual of today is a stickler for facts and results.
• 29:56
  Nevertheless, the 20th century readily accepts theories of all kinds, provided they're firmly grounded in fact. We have numerous theories, for example, about electricity.
• 30:07
  Everybody believes them without a murmur of doubt." Hmm. "Why this ready acceptance? Simply because it is impossible to explain what we see, feel, direct, and use without a reasonable assumption as a starting point.
• 30:22
  Everybody nowadays believes in scores of assumptions for which there's good evidence, but no perfect visual proof. And does not science demonstrate that visual proof is the weakest proof?
• 30:36
  It is being constantly revealed as mankind studies the material world that outward appearances are not inward reality at all."
• 30:46
  To illustrate, the prosaic steel girder is a massive electrons whirling around each other at incredible speed. These tiny bodies are governed by precise laws, and these laws hold true throughout the material world.
• 31:01
  Science tells us so. We have no reason to doubt it.
• 31:04
  When, however, the perfectly logical assumption is suggested that underneath the material world and life as we see it, there is an all-powerful guiding creative intelligence, all capital, right there our perverse streak comes to the surface, and we laboriously, laboriously set out to convince ourselves it isn't so.
• 31:28
  We read wordy books, indulge in windy arguments, thinking we believe this universe needs no God to explain it.
• 31:36
  Were our contentions true, it would follow that life originated out of nothing, means nothing, and proceeds nowhere.
• 31:46
  Instead of regarding ourselves as intelligent agents, spearheads of God's ever-advancing creation, we agnostics and atheists chose to believe that our human intelligence was the last word, the alpha and the omega, the beginning and end of all.
• 32:04
  Rather vain of us, wasn't it? We who have traveled this dubious path beg you to lay aside prejudice, even against organized religion.
• 32:15
  We've learned that whatever the human frailties of various faiths may be, those faiths have given purpose and direction to millions. People of faith have a logical idea of what life is all about.
• 32:29
  Actually, we used to have no reasonable conception whatever.
• 32:34
  We used to amuse ourselves by cynically dissecting spiritual beliefs and practices when we might have observed that many spiritually-minded persons of all races, colors, and creeds were demonstrating a degree of stability, happiness, use- and usefulness which we should have sought ourselves.
• 32:57
  What, what speaks to you in reading that? So, th- a- and, and I'll be very open about this- Mm-hmm... because when we start getting into the science stuff, I, you know, I'm not a scientist. Mm-hmm.
• 33:10
  But I, I start remembering when this was written- Mm-hmm... and how much things have advanced, and so I, I begin to get worried about the super smart people- Mm... looking at this and poking holes at it. Sure. Um,
• 33:24
  but on the tail end of that, I think about the few things that I have experienced, like in college and stuff. Mm-hmm. And, like, they would've had a freaking field day if quantum mechanics had- Oh, yeah...
• 33:37
  been a thing when they wrote this. Right. You write... You put that in this paragraph front and center. Mm-hmm. You know, talk about the su- superposition- Mm... s- superposition or superposition- Mm. Mm... of electrons.
• 33:49
  Like, if you observe them, they, they, they can't exist there- Right... until... Or they, they don't exist there until you observe them. Right. Like, they're in- Right... literally in two places at once. Right.
• 34:00
  You know, crazy stuff. Right. Right. But, like, that's where science- Right... has gotten to. Mm-hmm. And science- Yeah, nothing exists if you can't see it. Right. So- So do things exist at all?
• 34:10
  But then science is affirming. Mm-hmm. And to me, it's closing the gap between these scientific observations- Mm-hmm... which I'm an amateur, yeah, but it closes the gap- Mm-hmm...
• 34:22
  in my amateur mind between science and faith- Mm-hmm... to, like, yeah, the, it is reconciled because it is freaking mysterious. Right. Right. Because we're, we're inching closer to trying to
• 34:34
  put, put words and explanations on the mind of God. Right. I mean, that's, that's how- Right... that's how I start breaking this stuff down. Yeah. It's like, you know what? Yeah.
• 34:44
  Yeah, there, there is all kinds of stuff that we accept, but if you dig, dig, dig, dig, and science is gonna keep digging- Mm... you're gonna find unsatisfactory answers- Yeah... unless you've got a faith to prop it up.
• 34:57
  That's right. That's right. That is... That's just the case. Right. Yeah. No, I love that, and I, I mean, I couldn't, I couldn't agree more with that. Um, yeah, 'cause you could fo- you can
• 35:11
  follow the scientific wormhole to the very end, and even at the very end, there is still this mystery that they just can't explain. So it's the... It's pretty much the same thing, except at least we have an explanation.
• 35:25
  Mm-hmm. Uh, and you know, something that, you know, sticks out to me also is sort of this idea of, like, tangible and untangible. Like, I wanna see it. If I can see it, then I... There's proof, right?
• 35:39
  And so, like, society's cry for a miracle. You know, I w- show me a miracle and maybe I'll believe. Mm. Well, we've seen a sperm unite with an egg and turn into a human. I don't know what other miracle- Mm-hmm...
• 35:58
  you're looking for. Mm-hmm. Because that's unexplainable, but yet it happens. Yeah. N- and nobody has any idea how or why. Yeah. Uh, but yet it exists, so, like, what, what more do [laughs] you know...
• 36:14
  Like, what more, what more do we need? Well, look around at the world. [laughs] Right. Look at the universe. Right. I mean, look at this- Mm-hmm... infinitesimally small dot that- Mm... our planet is,
• 36:28
  and the glory that we get to experience on it- Mm-hmm... and the life that's here. Mm-hmm. And the vastness of the- Mm-hmm... excuse me, still expanding universe. Mm-hmm. Right. [laughs] Right. And, you know,
• 36:45
  y- you explain some of that away with time. It's like, okay, well, because billions and billions of... Mm. Well, you know. Maybe... maybe. But G- God is time. I mean, it, it's gotta go back to something. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 36:58
  And so even when you rewind the clock back to- Right... like it says here, there, when there was nothing. Right. Well, something happened. Right. Right. [laughs] Right. Right. I, I can attest to that. Mm-hmm.
• 37:12
  Something happened. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And, and so I don't know. To, to me it's, it's just more, the longer that I'm around on this earth- Yeah... the more I become enmeshed with a reconciliation- Mm... of both realities.
• 37:28
  Yeah. And, and it's n- there was a time when, and I, I just briefly, I s- you know, when I was growing up before drinking and everything, but as a, a young child, I was horrified of the idea of eternity. Mm. Mm.
• 37:42
  And would wake up with, you know, nightmares and stuff, and just this complete, you know, mind screw of- Mm... what do you mean eternity? Right. It was horrifying. Mm.
• 37:54
  And, and that's as, as a early, you know, as in the, raised in the church and- Right... and kind of some of it, I, I was trying to reconcile and I couldn't. Mm-hmm. Like, 'cause I was trying to,
• 38:05
  with my little bitty mind- Right... trying to make sense of it. Right. And today, yeah, I can't remember the last time I was really, like, disturbed by it. Mm. But it can still sorta get to me- Mm. Right...
• 38:18
  when I'm trying to solve everything up in my head. Right. Right, when you're trying to figure out- When, w-... what that concept means... just exactly. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
• 38:28
  Rather than just, you know, the difficulty of having faith, you know, and believing that that concept is actually a positive one. Mm-hmm. [laughs] Mm-hmm. [laughs] You know? No, I hear you.
• 38:40
  It's, I mean, how could that not be a struggle? Ooh. I feel like that's pretty good. I think that's a good spot. Yeah. Let's wrap it right there. I think that's good.
• 38:49
  Might be- We'll be back 'cause that's about, it's about halfway through. We may be able, we may get lucky and split this into two chunks instead of, like, 14 like- Yeah... we've been doing. [laughs] Yeah.
• 38:57
  [laughs] No doubt. No doubt. Uh, th- that's a great chapter, though. Mm. It's been a while since I've read it. Yeah. Yep. That's good. All right, y'all. All right. Appreciate it. Always a pleasure.
• 39:09
  Let us know what you're thinking. There's a- Contact... contact form in the description below now. Is there really? I was a little late on putting that one together. Nice. But it's there. I like contact forms.
• 39:18
  Let us know what's up. Great. I'm gonna contact you. Contact me. All right? Just to see. Please. Yeah. Just to- Please, John. We'll get some bozos out there to contact you too.
• 39:25
  [laughs] See what they have to say about it. All right, brother. All right. Always a pleasure. Always a pleasure. [upbeat music] Hey, thanks for listening.
• 39:32
  You can find more info at progressandperfection.com, and we'll talk to you tomorrow.