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Will AI Wipe Out Developer Jobs And Who Owns Your Data Now E169 · The FIT4Privacy Podcast | Exploring ISO Standards AI Privacy | Grow Skills Store

• 0:00
  What a person can do that a machine will never be able to do
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  is feel frustration, empathise with other people, with it, with
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  the consumer and anticipate breakage.
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  But the truth is a decision is going to have to be made by a
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  person that's not going away. And so the deployment, the value
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  of that person is going up and the importance of the people who
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  are quality assurance and general discernment of whether
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  or not a good decision has been made, that value is enhanced
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  dramatically. Hi, my name is Puneet Bhatia and
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  you're listening to Fit for privacy podcast where AI meets
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  privacy. This is not legal advice thanks
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  for listening. As technology evolves, there are
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  two aspects that are under pressure 1 is software
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  development industry. There is a talk that software
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  development jobs will go away. There won't be any software
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  development companies. Will that happen?
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  Well, that's a good question. No, let's figure out.
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  And 2nd, it's all about data and there's chaos.
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  Who owns the data? Is it the one who has the data?
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  Is it the software that generated the data or is it the
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  source from where data was collected or many other
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  dimensions? That's confusing right now with
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  those two dimensions. It's very difficult to
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  understand where technology is headed and how are we going to
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  face or solve these challenges. Well, developers have a job who
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  will now have the ownership of data and how is the world
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  evolving now? These are very interesting
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  questions. And for that we're lucky to have
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  Jake Ward, who's the Co founder of Data Protocol and Developers
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  Alliance and we are going to ask him these questions and have a
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  fascinating conversation. And as you learn and grow
• 1:50
  skills, it's important that you learn about ISO standards
• 1:53
  because when you learn ISO standards, you get in to learn a
• 1:57
  management system. Like ISO 9001 is about quality
• 2:00
  management system, ISO 42,001 is about artificial intelligence
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  management system, ISO 27,001 is about information security
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  management system. So you learn a system in how
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  managers can manage these subjects, these topics in their
• 2:15
  organisation. If you want to take advantage of
• 2:18
  learning, go to www.crowskills.store and if you
• 2:22
  have any consulting needs, contact us at Fit for
• 2:24
  privacy.com. But for now, let's go and talk
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  to Jake Ward and ask these interesting questions.
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  Hello and welcome to another episode of the Fit for Privacy
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  podcast. And as I promised, we are with
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  Jake Ward. Jake, welcome to Fit for Privacy
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  Podcast. Thanks for having me, it's a
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  pleasure to be here. It is indeed a pleasure to have
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  you as well, and with your background and your knowledge,
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  I'm tempted to ask you, how do you see this Yuka world around
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  us being summarised? Because every day there's a new
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  AI platform, every day there's but talk about this law or that
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  law is coming up. Every day there is some breach
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  or something which creates the challenge.
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  So there's technology going far, regulators trying to pull it
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  back and then some or the other thing creating news about what's
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  bad in the market or what's good in the market.
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  So how do you summarise what's going on in this new world?
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  That doesn't sound like it's all that new to me.
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  I've spent 15 or 20 years in this space and and that feels
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  exactly like the cycle that we find ourselves in every time we
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  look up from a new technology. We had much the same convulsion
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  and churn around mobile apps. We had it again around the use
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  of data in new models or new business models.
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  How, how does privacy inform use of an application or use of a
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  service or a business? And then how does how do
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  regulators respond? We had a similar convulsion
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  around VR and AR and now we're having it around AI.
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  That isn't to say that this isn't a tectonic shift in the
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  way that businesses operate, in the way that we think about
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  regulating those businesses in the use, the use of technology,
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  particularly at a commercial level, only to keep some level
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  of of rational context around the speed with which this is
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  moving and the impact that it will have.
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  Now, that's very well said. It's a cyclic thing.
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  It's not huge, but still I would argue that this cycle is
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  slightly. Of course, we said that for
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  Internet then we said it even before when the computers came.
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  And we always said this cycle is different, but this one, the
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  magnitude of it, like the way ChatGPT got adopted, it was much
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  faster than anything else. So this one is going very fast
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  and it has a huge potential of huge impact.
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  Would you agree with that or would you have a view around
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  that? Well, I'd I'd certainly agree
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  with that Each each cycle stands on the shoulders of the one
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  before it, and so it is inherently taller, right?
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  Like the the thing the I used to joke that the mobile phone was
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  what was to innovation, what fire was to heat, right?
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  That it was the thing that once you had it in your hand, you
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  were never letting it go. And every future endeavour,
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  every next version of whatever was going to have to pass
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  through that position of of sort of contact setting.
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  This was the new floor. Nothing was was ever going to be
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  below it again. That's what fire did for the
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  idea of heat is that, yeah, the sun's warm, but put your hand in
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  this fire, you're going to feel it, make water hotter, cook
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  things faster. That, you know, all of the
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  different ways that that fire changed humanity.
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  That's ostensibly what what mobile technology did when we
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  put a supercomputer in the pocket of 8 billion people.
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  AI is is the next piece of that puzzle, 'cause now we've trained
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  an entire generation, 2 generations of people to
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  communicate differently, to engage with information
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  differently, to to move throughout the world
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  differently. We are all ostensibly augmented
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  ourselves because of our access to computational power on a
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  cellular network. Now we're getting into a
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  generative space where those devices not only talk to us
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  based on how they were programmed, but they talk to us
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  based on how we programmed them and the question we ask and the,
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  the, the context that we're putting them in when we ask the
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  question. It is unquestionably a whole new
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  world. You know, we are, we are not
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  into a into a space yet where these tools have consciousness.
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  That isn't really what we're talking about.
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  We're talking about access to information faster, but not just
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  search, contextualise and regenerate it in a way that we
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  can apply it. You know, are we all going to
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  get a little Dumber because of it?
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  No, not all of us. Some of us for sure, but the
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  vast majority of humanity is going to be or at least perform
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  at a higher level across leisure, business enterprise,
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  you know, all of all the different ways that we work
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  throughout a day. Yeah, Now that makes sense.
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  And you mentioned two things here, one being the programmed
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  that is this AI that we are facing, it's no longer
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  programmed to do what it's programmed to do.
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  It's programmed by us through usage.
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  And that's an important element. And for somebody who has set up
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  a developers association, I'm tempted to ask how does it
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  impact the developer community? Because the extremist or the
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  news are saying the developer community will be wiped off.
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  We will not have any software development companies.
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  We will not have any developers. I know it's an exaggeration, but
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  what's your view on that as an association of developers?
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  What do you see going forward? How this developer industry or
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  developer role shifting changing?
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  Yeah, I, I think reports of the demise of the developer
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  ecosystem have been greatly exaggerated.
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  I, I think that I suspect that what we're going to see in the,
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  So I saw that, I, I saw a couple weeks ago, there was an article
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  that I, I quite enjoyed about how AI has actually generated an
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  entire generation of decoders that are actually coding again,
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  that the no code low code movement over the last three
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  years where it's so easy, anybody can do.
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  It was actually removing some of the creativity that goes into
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  the development of software as a rule.
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  But we're 1516 years out from the idea of software eating the
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  world. It ate the world, it's gone.
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  Software is everywhere. There's nothing left on the
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  plate. So we're now into a different
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  space where we're talking about dimensions of speed and scale
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  more than we are creativity and engineering.
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  There's certainly going to be downward pressure on this
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  generation of junior developers who were working on things like
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  front end website development. Those people are gonna have to
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  learn some new skills because, you know, a somebody with a
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  little bit of taste and patience can use or sell to front end
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  code an entire landing page now. Great.
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  But we were there with Squarespace 6 years ago.
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  Seven years ago, we were already moving in that direction pretty
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  aggressively. The importance, however, of of
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  an engineer, of a developer that knows what they're doing has
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  never been higher. Because vibe coding is a
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  complete waste of time, even from a prototyping standpoint.
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  If you're not, somebody isn't defining the variables and
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  setting the parameters around which you're building.
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  And like all things and you know this better than anything, data
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  is going to drive the bus on this.
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  And if you can't plug an interface into the data you need
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  and the data you want and how you're going to use the data and
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  comply with data rules and privacy and manage those inputs
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  and outputs, you don't have a business, you don't have a
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  solution, you're probably in violation of several laws, and
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  consumers are not going to enjoy what you're delivering to them.
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  So whether it's an enterprise solution from Cisco or you're
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  talking about two guys in a garage like the Silicon Valley
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  dream that we all talk about, no, the future of development
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  and developers is as bright as it's ever been.
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  OK, that's very clear. But before I go into your point
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  on data, I have a follow up on the developer aspect.
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  I think we both tend to agree that the developers will remain,
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  the development job will remain, software development will
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  happen, it will shift and it will become more efficient, more
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  effective. Because if there was a, because
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  I, it reminded me of an example. I started off as a software
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  developer and then one time I was asked to code about daylight
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  savings. And I understand nothing about
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  that. At that time.
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  It was back in 2002. I coded it, but I coded it
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  abstractly. And when I moved to Europe in
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  2006, 556 and I've experienced daylight saving and understood
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  what I was being asked. One day we'll have 23 hours and
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  one day we'll have 25 hours. And that's what you have to
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  adjust in the daylight saving because I was building the
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  software for some energy company.
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  But beyond the point what was expected of a developer was that
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  they understand what they're doing.
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  They become human and they become business aware.
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  Business aware. What am I coding?
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  Why am I coding? What's the purpose and what's
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  the effect of it? Not that somebody tells you it's
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  23 hours and 25 hours. And that need, that desire for
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  them to be more relevant will increase.
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  Plus they will have tools at the disposal becomes to AI that they
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  don't have to write the structure and everything.
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  We used to have what this call, we used to call them ID ES,
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  integrated development environments.
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  Those days of Java and Microsoft, what they were
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  creating C# and Java. So I think those will be more
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  extended. You will say this is what I want
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  to write. The software writes for you, but
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  then you enhance it, then you enrich it with your knowledge.
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  So their job will change, job will remain, but how would it
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  change? Can we have a peek or preview
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  into how it will change? I'm trying to explain from my
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  knowledge of a development. Well, I think I think you nailed
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  it with that. You've changed the floor, right?
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  A a developer can replace dozens, hundreds of hours by
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  prompting a a code IDE that supports their language, right.
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  I want to achieve this goal. Here are the variables here are
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  the parameters. Write the base code that's
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  incredibly efficient. It also removes the need to to
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  have perfect code structure right like you have you have
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  enabled a machine to do a commodified job that for a long
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  time we had heads and hands coders developing that we would
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  you know some people derogatory name for them as code monkeys,
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  right? Like some of the just bangs on
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  code and it's heads and hands and I'm moving the stuff around.
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  But they were they were writing lines of code to meet a demand.
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  Because software development is about predicting the future.
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  You're here and I need you to be here.
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  Here are the steps along the way.
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  Here are the here are the options of your experience.
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  This is what this could look like any any piece of software
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  that is binary. Do this, don't do that expands
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  exponentially over the course of a user journey or commercial
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  experience or or whatever variables you want to set
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  because every one of those decisions is binary.
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  I do this or I don't. I do this and then I don't.
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  I do this and I don't. What a person can do that a
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  machine will never be able to do is feel frustration, empathise
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  with other people, with the with the consumer, and anticipate
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  breakage. Right.
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  Think about why something doesn't work so that that goes
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  from a informational news website all the way to a back
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  end SAS system that is used by Intel.
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  Everything that is software driven.
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  At some point a person sat in judgement of whether or not that
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  was the right solution. Sometimes you're confined by the
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  technology, sometimes there's requirements, there's laws,
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  there's other components around the Slas of a company.
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  But the truth is a, a decision is going to have to be made by a
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  person that's not going away. And so the deployment, the value
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  of that person is going up and the importance of the people who
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  are quality assurance and and general discernment of whether
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  or not a good decision has been made, that value is enhanced
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  dramatically. So certainly there is going to
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  be efficiencies created by the ability of a engineer to say, I
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  need to accomplish this goal, go and then have a team QA the the
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  logic and the code and all of that.
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  But we're pretty sure machines can write code as well as a
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  person can, but they can't do is engineer.
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  Right. And I think that's the nuance.
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  There's difference between coding and there's difference
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  between engineering and engineering is where people will
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  add value. The standardised coding, no
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  problem. And same thing for QAI Think for
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  the quality assurance when we talk about it, you will have AI
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  assistance to identify defects, to plug in the bugs and create
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  or enhance the quality of IT that we were we were used to
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  having. Because one of the challenges in
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  last few years has been the quality of projects we had, the
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  quality of delivery we had. There used to be defect issues
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  and we never knew projects would complete.
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  I think it'll only have positive impact.
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  And if we could close that topic, developers are here to
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  stay. Software development will
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  happen, but it will go to the next level.
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  The floor would change, the quality would change, the
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  efficiency would change and the way it's being done would
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  change. You mentioned about data and
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  interestingly you also have a role in there because I'm
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  fascinated. You are the Co founder of the
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  Developers Alliance, but you're also the Co founder of data
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  protocols. So you definitely are very well
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  versed with data and I like to leverage on that expertise and
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  ask you in this AI world, in the software world also it was fed,
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  data was being fed. But in the AI world, it's purely
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  data-driven. Data is the new oil, as they
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  say, or the new gold who owns the data?
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  Because this confusion, there's a lot of paradox is where the
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  source is the still, the data owner is the AI agent or a LLM
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  or AI model system, whatever we call it now, the owner because
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  it's synthesised from multiple sources and adapted or it's,
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  it's synthesised because the prompt engineer said it to do it
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  for a specific task. And hence the prompt engineer
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  has the code. And then also of course, we can
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  complexify the things by saying the organisation in which this
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  prompt engineer works is the owner.
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  How do you see this ownership of data shifting and the value of
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  data ownership changing in this new world?
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  So I've always thought about data in a digital world being
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  being a matter of my data, my birthday, my name, my my
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  personal information, the things that identify me but also are
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  tied to me. There's our data, which is
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  generated when I come to your website or yours, use your tool
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  or engage with whatever service you have.
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  And then there's your data, your algorithm, your secret sauce,
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  what you do with the aggregate of a of 1,000,000 users to
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  create innovation on your product or data trends or or to
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  just generally better service folks.
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  I don't think that framework changes much in a world of AII
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  think that there is there's certainly something to the idea
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  that AI data use is actually accomplishing a thing that we in
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  the in this universe and privacy engineering particularly have
• 18:26
  been dreaming about for 20 years is like this.
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  It's it's sort of the abstraction of individualised
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  data. Cause who cares, right?
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  It's, it's the, it's if you, if you have all of the data,
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  individualised data doesn't matter anymore.
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  You have everything in aggregate.
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  And to think that you'd service specifically to an individual
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  doesn't make any sense, particularly because the product
• 18:49
  that individual is engaging with is personalised by the
• 18:52
  individual. So my chatbot, right, when I'm
• 18:56
  using Claude to help me work down through a board deck,
• 19:02
  right, I'm thinking about presenting a new set of options
• 19:04
  to my board. And so we're, we're working our
• 19:07
  way through it and I'm asking Claude to consider this and show
• 19:09
  me that and talk to me about this other thing.
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  And my, my head of content, who sits next to me is using ChatGPT
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  in a very similar way, but she's working on one thing and I'm
• 19:19
  working on another. Our experiences are purely
• 19:22
  personalised, even if even if my had a product was on the other
• 19:27
  side of the computer working on an on the exact same problem set
• 19:31
  than I was, his bot is personalised by everything.
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  Every keystroke he's ever put into his clawed version and he's
• 19:38
  going to get a different answer than I am.
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  That level of personalization obscures the output of or the
• 19:46
  input of the data in the 1st place.
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  It has everything. So the only thing that matters
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  now is the output, right? And, and the, it's like it's,
• 19:56
  it's pseudonymization through abstraction is that if you, if
• 20:00
  you could throw a blanket over everything and then you turn off
• 20:03
  the lights, who cares? It's under the blanket.
• 20:06
  You can't see anything anyway. So I, I think, I think there's
• 20:12
  something to copyright, right? There's something to the
• 20:15
  intellectual property laws that govern copyright about.
• 20:19
  Hoovering up books and information and who gets paid
• 20:21
  and what, what that means to creators of a video and words
• 20:26
  and thoughts and all of that. And for the things that are in
• 20:29
  the public domain and easily accessible that have been sucked
• 20:34
  into LLMS and, and then turned around in different ways.
• 20:39
  Yeah, I, I mean, I, I feel for those creators.
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  I do. This is it's not something you
• 20:44
  could anticipate. It's impossible to monetize
• 20:46
  against. You can see some real
• 20:48
  frustration if if your work, your inspired creativity is now
• 20:54
  just part of of the response of a robot.
• 20:57
  But in terms of, in terms of data ingestion and the value of
• 21:02
  it to the to the delivery of of. Services.
• 21:09
  Solutions Responses to my queries in in in Claude.
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  I don't know that we have to differentiate between who owns
• 21:18
  what and and 'cause it's it's not being assigned that way.
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  So I take 3 things from it. One, data management becomes
• 21:30
  even more important because that's what you're emphasising.
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  Second, as you manage data, the segregation of data whose data
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  where, because few years ago we started to differentiate saying
• 21:40
  personal data, non personal data and before that it was
• 21:42
  confidential, public, internal and all that.
• 21:46
  Now how you segregate data not only on these parameters, the
• 21:49
  privacy parameters or the confidentiality parameters, but
• 21:52
  also in terms of the usability or the origin perspective that
• 21:58
  will also matter. And the third thing is then
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  based on the data management and data governance, things would
• 22:04
  get more complex, which is not something people want to hear.
• 22:08
  We will need to manage all these complexity, Where did it come
• 22:11
  from, Who added it, what value was added, how is it segregated?
• 22:14
  And then live with that world. Is is that fair to say?
• 22:19
  I think so. I think so that sounds that
• 22:22
  sounds right. OK, that sounds right.
• 22:25
  So tell us something because I'm curious to ask you about your
• 22:30
  data protocol. What is this all about?
• 22:34
  Yeah. So when I left the Developers
• 22:35
  Alliance in 2018, this was in the wake of Cambridge Analytica
• 22:39
  and IT. I had spent a lot of time with
• 22:42
  thousands of developers over the previous 6-7 years.
• 22:45
  And what I heard over and over again is that the primary
• 22:47
  blocker for innovation among particularly individual
• 22:52
  developers, but smaller teams was navigating the process of
• 22:56
  quote unquote, little lowercase C compliance, right?
• 23:00
  That platforms required things because laws required them to
• 23:03
  require things and the developers just want to build
• 23:06
  stuff. I'm using a lot of pronouns
• 23:08
  there and sort of the colloquial sense.
• 23:10
  But the, the reality is that there was a disconnect between
• 23:13
  large companies and small companies and big governments
• 23:16
  and all companies that I felt like I could solve, that there
• 23:20
  was a utilisation challenge. There was this, this massive
• 23:24
  workforce of creative development that wanted to build
• 23:27
  cool stuff. And there was a conglomerate of
• 23:30
  very large platforms, some smaller platforms that wanted
• 23:34
  those developers to build really cool stuff.
• 23:35
  But there they had a utilisation challenge.
• 23:38
  And I perceived that challenge to be an issue around education.
• 23:43
  They don't know enough. And in the, in lieu of knowing
• 23:46
  what to do, they will do the wrong thing or they will do
• 23:48
  nothing, which is also the wrong thing.
• 23:50
  And, and the question of motivation, do we understand
• 23:54
  what it is that a, what a developer is, is trying to do
• 23:59
  when they're building something and they're trying to work their
• 24:01
  way through the compliance requirements of a meta, for
• 24:04
  example. And attention, is this an
• 24:08
  opportunity for a developer to build something cool and build a
• 24:11
  business and make $1,000,000 and, and reach a larger
• 24:13
  audience? Or is is this stop on the
• 24:16
  compliance journey a real point of frustration and they would
• 24:20
  much prefer not to deal with it at all.
• 24:23
  And so we set out actually one of the very first things that we
• 24:25
  did was build a platform, data protocol platform that is AI
• 24:30
  think a better way to deliver educational information to
• 24:33
  developers. So that we could construct a
• 24:36
  privacy engineering curriculum that included 15 courses and
• 24:40
  badges and all of the assessment pieces and push that out into
• 24:44
  the world to see if folks like you would would validate this
• 24:48
  curricula and the way that we thought about delivering
• 24:51
  information to the next generation of privacy engineers.
• 24:55
  And then the next thing we did was work with companies like
• 24:57
  Intel and Meta and Google to help their developer partners
• 25:01
  navigate their processes while demonstrating the value of of
• 25:06
  those products that they were each of them was offering.
• 25:10
  And now we've expanded that aperture even further, that
• 25:13
  approach to, to engage companies servicing user bases, customer
• 25:18
  bases, partner bases that aren't even developers, right?
• 25:21
  That we've taken this approach and we've grown it.
• 25:23
  But, but to your point, I believe in the value of, of
• 25:30
  leading with empathy and delivering information in a way
• 25:34
  that people want it so that they can get what they need from it.
• 25:38
  And and so we see everything through the rubric of attention,
• 25:42
  motivation and education and delivering those those
• 25:45
  solutions. OK.
• 25:48
  And while that's on the data side, you also mentioned
• 25:51
  something called you were you Co founded the developers?
• 25:55
  What is it Developers association?
• 25:59
  Developers. Alliance.
• 26:00
  But you said you went out of it, but now you're again back in it.
• 26:04
  So what is it that made you set it up and what is it that made
• 26:08
  you go back? And what is this alliance about?
• 26:10
  Sure. So Developers Alliance is a
• 26:13
  nonprofit organisation that works with software developers
• 26:16
  to make sure that they have a seat at the table when
• 26:19
  discussing public policy issues that relate to the innovation
• 26:22
  industry. In 2012, when we founded the
• 26:25
  Alliance, this was, you know, the like button had just been
• 26:29
  introduced on on Facebook, right?
• 26:32
  This was before the store, the App Store in any meaningful way.
• 26:35
  HTML5 was coming along and it was going to do away with native
• 26:39
  applications. Everybody had an App Store.
• 26:42
  There were 17,000,000 software developers.
• 26:44
  Now there's 35 million, but you get the the this was halcyon
• 26:48
  days, right? This is really nascent to mobile
• 26:51
  technology and what we do with it and how we how we bring
• 26:54
  developers into the fold. So we started this organisation
• 26:57
  to to sort of say this is a massive economic driver, social
• 27:03
  driver, political driver that's coming down the road in the form
• 27:07
  of software developers. They need a place to get
• 27:11
  information and a way to get involved.
• 27:14
  And so we built the alliance and when I left in 2017, end of
• 27:18
  2017, we were 160 corporate members and 150,000 individual
• 27:24
  developers under, under this rubric of US and Europe, mostly
• 27:30
  dealing with issues like privacy and software patents and
• 27:33
  competition and, and just the things that happen inside the
• 27:37
  innovation industry. I guess I laughed because I was
• 27:44
  really tired, but also because I had this idea for data protocol
• 27:48
  and that I, I felt like I could, I could bridge this gap between
• 27:52
  developers and companies and governments.
• 27:54
  And, and so I wanted, you know, I spent six years with startups
• 27:58
  of every stripe. And you get that, you get the
• 28:02
  bug to try for yourself, right? Like you, you, you found
• 28:06
  something, you think, Oh yeah, I could do that again.
• 28:08
  And then you spend a lot of time with, with app startups and, and
• 28:13
  service startups. You start to think that maybe,
• 28:15
  maybe you're crazy enough to do it yourself.
• 28:18
  And I'm, I'm back because I, nothing changed, right?
• 28:25
  I while I was gone, the disconnect between government
• 28:29
  and industry didn't magically close.
• 28:33
  There continues to be a number of issues.
• 28:36
  Europe's primary innovation export continues to be
• 28:39
  regulation. America still is stepping its
• 28:43
  toe on everything from AI frameworks to private.
• 28:45
  We still don't have a national privacy bill.
• 28:48
  We still don't have a law that governs the use of data by
• 28:52
  software developers or software developer driven companies on
• 28:55
  any level. And it's only going to get worse
• 28:58
  because AI changes the, the rubric significantly.
• 29:02
  This new paradigm of where data goes and how it's used and how
• 29:04
  it's applied. I, I feel like most policy
• 29:08
  makers are overmatched by the, the technical requirements of
• 29:12
  the issues. And I want to help right.
• 29:15
  I'm, I'm not here to be a critic.
• 29:16
  That's not interesting, but we are.
• 29:18
  We are here to say. Congressman.
• 29:22
  Here's 9 developers from your district that want to talk to
• 29:25
  you about how this actually works.
• 29:28
  Take it, leave it, use it, ask questions, whatever you want to
• 29:32
  do with that information, at least now you've been informed.
• 29:35
  And on behalf of those developers, at least now we know
• 29:38
  that we participated in the process, OK.
• 29:40
  And this Developers alliance, it's paid membership or it's
• 29:43
  free for every anyone time membership's free.
• 29:45
  Membership's free. I'm starting from scratch.
• 29:49
  Basically, we, there was a, there was a few years in which
• 29:53
  the organisation was not, was not focused on individual
• 29:58
  developer growth. And so we're, we're starting
• 30:01
  fresh. And, and so we were asking folks
• 30:05
  right now, for example, to get involved with the DMA, which as
• 30:10
  you know, the EU sort of passed is, is rolling out and
• 30:13
  considering various components of digital marketing Act and how
• 30:16
  to, how to think about developer access, consumer access to
• 30:22
  larger platforms that they call gatekeepers.
• 30:25
  Through that process, you're reaching out to developers
• 30:27
  through events and, and webinars and saying, what do you, what do
• 30:31
  you think? How do you want to get involved?
• 30:34
  Have you thought about, for example, what what adding a link
• 30:38
  to your app would enable in terms of imposter apps or
• 30:45
  security risks? Talk to me about the way that
• 30:47
  you're going to engage with data management and data migration
• 30:51
  across app stores. Those types of things are really
• 30:55
  important from public policy perspective, but nobody else is
• 30:58
  going to ask those questions because people don't.
• 31:01
  Organisations don't traditionally walk around asking
• 31:04
  individuals within a workforce what they think about something
• 31:08
  and so it's going to be different.
• 31:10
  That makes sense, but is this platform for individuals or
• 31:13
  corporates or both, right? Now it's for individuals.
• 31:17
  I'll, I'll get to the companies later.
• 31:19
  The the, the truth is that I was away from it for long enough
• 31:23
  that I feel like I, I need to do some homework, right?
• 31:26
  I, I need to ask individual developers what they're engaging
• 31:30
  on a day-to-day basis and figure out where their head is,
• 31:33
  particularly in Europe. I mean, I like, I, I run a, an
• 31:37
  app company, I have developers in house that I can ask
• 31:39
  questions about in the US, but I, I need to spend some time in
• 31:43
  Europe. We need to spend some time in
• 31:44
  Europe as an organisation asking individual developers what
• 31:48
  they're, what they're seeing, what they're worried about, what
• 31:50
  they're passionate about long before we can go to, you know,
• 31:54
  ad tech companies in Berlin and ask if they want to get
• 31:56
  involved. Sure.
• 31:58
  So as I conclude this, I take 3 messages from this one.
• 32:04
  Technology is in the next phase of its evolution.
• 32:08
  The developer jobs or development is here to stay but
• 32:11
  going to go to the next level and data management or data
• 32:16
  governance or data segregation, if there was any time to do it,
• 32:19
  well, it's now. And with that, if I have to ask
• 32:23
  that someone wants to contact you for something, what would be
• 32:27
  the best channel to reach out? You can reach me at Jake at
• 32:32
  devalliance.org. I'm also on Twitter at Jacob M
• 32:36
  Ward and happy to chat. Good.
• 32:40
  Thank you so much Jake for sharing your insights.
• 32:42
  Very wonderful and very diverse. Really enjoyed it.
• 32:45
  I appreciate. It thank you.
• 32:48
  Thank you for joining us on the Fit for Privacy podcast.
• 32:51
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• 32:53
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• 32:56
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