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Episode 164 - A Campaign in No Way Memorable · The Partial Historians

• Dr Rad 0:15 Foreign Welcome to the partial historians. Dr G 0:18 We explore all the details of ancient Rome, Dr Rad 0:23 everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battles waged and when citizens turn against each other, I'm Dr Rad, Dr G 0:33 and I'm Dr G, we consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories. Dr Rad 0:44 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Dr G 0:58 Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the partial of his historians. I am Dr G and I'm Dr Rad, and together we make up the Dream Team. Dr Rad 1:11 We do indeed Dr G, and we're here to tell people all about what's happening happening in ancient Rome in the early fourth century BCE Dr G 1:21 I know, and it sounds like sounds like it might be old news, but for anybody who's been paying attention to Roman history, it's going to be exciting news, fresh, new, innovative, different. Dr Rad 1:33 Indeed, it shall now. Rome has been going through very exciting times recently. Dr, G, I mean, the conquest of Veii still reverberates through every year that we have been discussing, Dr G 1:45 and I think that will happen for quite some time. To be honest, the ramifications of Rome's defeat of they are extensive and ongoing, and maybe not in ways that the Romans necessarily are going to enjoy, as we're about to find out. Dr Rad 2:02 This is true. This is true, but the last time we have been discussing this, there's been some division within the Roman population over what to do with this brand spanking new city for them, obviously not in the scheme of the world city of they, because it's a pretty substantial conquest, and they haven't always agreed what they're going to do with it. Dr G 2:26 Yes, they have not thought ahead. I don't know if they anticipated that they were going to win ultimately, Dr Rad 2:33 but it does say about their confidence. Dr G 2:36 But if they had, they haven't really considered what they're going to utilize the land that they've gained for, or necessarily what they're going to do with what appears to be the ruins of a so it still seems to be perfectly serviceable as somewhere to live. And some of the Romans, particularly from the plebeians as we understand it, are quite interested in maybe making a small shift slightly north of the Tiber to take in the scenery of Veii and to start afresh, a new life with a little bit more land and space, maybe get away from those pesky patricians, Dr Rad 3:15 indeed, and some people, maybe The patricians see this as horrifying beyond belief, the idea that you would leave Rome for a city that's just been conquered, disgusting. Dr G 3:29 Where's your sense of morality? Where's your sense of loyalty? Dr Rad 3:34 Yeah, so it's given us some nice, potentially kind of conflict of the orders, stuff, or maybe it's just general, as you say, like lack of organization here, but definitely some tense times after the conquest of Veii which means Dr G, we're ready to sail off from 393 BCE, and sail right On into 392, BCE. Dr Rad 4:28 all right. Dr, G it's 392 BCE, I'd love to hear who the magistrates are, and this seems to have become, by default, your job. Dr G 4:38 I think it has, mostly because my source material has gone all screw with we have consuls for this year. What I know madness. This seems to be a trend now, if you like, because we did have consuls in 393 as well, but that was after a big gap. And. All of a sudden, we're back in consul territory. What does this tell us about Rome? We're not really sure, no, but we've got the Fasti Capitolini, which is this later document that's put together, which purports to be the magistrate list for each year, and when it contains more than two in the highest slot, the assumption is that they can't be consuls. Now, is this how early Rome was truly organized? It is almost impossible to know. But when we only have two names, the assumption is that we must be dealing with a consulship, this traditional divide of regal power amongst two Roman citizens in order to keep things in balance, Dr Rad 5:42 and not just any Roman citizens, exclusively patricians. Oh, Dr G 5:47 those guys, indeed. And so for this year of 392, BCE, we have Lucius Valerius Potitus, who was consul in the previous year, and also somebody who has a long history in the role of military Tribune with consular power in 414, 406-403-4013 98 a Titus. He's been everywhere, yeah, showing up a lot. And his companion in the consulship is a guy called Marcus Manlius Capitolinus. But we are not so sure about this guy's praenomen, so it is listed diversely amongst our sources. He's also sometimes referred to as Aulus, and that comes up in Diodorus Siculus, and then also known as potentially Titus, which comes up in Dionysus of Halicarnassus. So we're not entirely sure which Manlius Capitolinus we're dealing with here, and it seems to be a little bit up for grabs now in terms of other figures that may be of interest, that is it for the list of magistrates, that's all I have. But I do have some other notable figures that are going to come up from my side quest, "Meanwhile in Sicily", so obviously, Dionysius, the tyrant of Syracuse, is going to be out and about. He's about to bring his brother Thearides into the mix, so that should be fun for all of us. And we also encounter a guy called Heloris who is from Syracuse as well, but ends up leading the army of the city of Croton. And I'll get more into that when the time is right, Dr Rad 7:41 I feel like we're venturing into Superman territory or something with a place called Croton, either that or salads. Dr G 7:52 Look I like a good salad, and when you're down that way, I think it's the best kind of food, Dr Rad 7:58 all right. Well, Dr, G, I of course I'm returning to my ever faithful Livy. Livy's account for 392 does connect a little bit with what had happened the previous year, with that debate about what to do with Veii so you might recall that because consuls were agreed on, as you've noted, was a bit of an unusual thing. We haven't had consuls for a while, seemingly because when you have military tribunes with consular power, there is at least the chance that you might have a plebeian ruling. I mean, that really doesn't seem to have been a consideration at all. It has not been mentioned in a really long time. But that seemingly is one of the things that the population are concerned about, and why we haven't had consuls for quite some time. Is it perhaps, maybe more because Rome is at war and needs lots of people who can go and fight them. Who knows? But we ended up, after the consuls had been elected, they put forward a decree where, apparently, a parcel of land from the conquered Bay was given out, I believe to every plebeian, it was a little tricky to understand exactly who was going to be getting it, but I'm pretty sure it's probably every plebeian, pre born Roman citizen. This Dr G 9:15 seems to be to every free born citizen. So that could encompass patricians as well, yes, and if it did, I imagine the patricians would be slightly more happy about it. But I do find it fascinating, because for all of the argument against going to Veii in the first place, like, how dare you leave Rome, all of a sudden, this land is all parceled out to people. What are you supposed to do with it? Dr Rad 9:39 In the translation I have of Livy, and I admit I did not go and check the Latin, which I probably should have, but it says to every plebeian, and not alone, to the heads of families. So in other words, I I'm taking that to be not just the pater familias of a plebeian family, but legitimately, to every plebeian. I mean the subtext here. Various men, I would say I'd Dr G 10:02 find it highly surprising if the freeborn women of the plebeian class were offered seven iugera of land outside of Veii, although it would Dr Rad 10:11 be nice. I know the little holiday home, they can set up little spas a farm of one's own, yeah, but that's because the plebeians were so happy by this resolution in the previous year. That's why, apparently, they allowed for consoles to be, once again, a thing in 392, BCE. They're just not angry anymore. You know, they've lost the fight. Dr G 10:33 It's fine by all means. Have consuls. I've gotten what I want Dr Rad 10:37 exactly. Now, one of the guys that you mentioned, potentially Marcus Manlius Capitolinus, he is definitely going to be a figure to watch, and there is a bit of dispute about how he actually got the last part of his name as well. So Capitolinus, in some versions of his story, is a name that he wins. And I'm not going to tell you how, because that would give the game away. But, you know, it's one of those special titles that a Roman could potentially be awarded in recognition of some sort of action, usually in a battle or something like that. However, it could actually just be because that's where his family lived, yeah, yeah, Dr G 11:19 because this is not the first time we've encountered a Capitolinus, I Dr Rad 11:23 know, but there's a particular story surrounding this guy. Watch this space. So, yes, watch this space, but that's a bit of an explanation for why his name might have come about. It's actually very boring when you think about it, in the sense that it could be a glorious military Act, or it could just be his address. Dr G 11:42 Well, I guess we'll just have to find out together. I'm sure when the time is right, you will tell me the details. I Dr Rad 11:49 will. I will. Now we've got to tie up a few loose ends in 392, BCE, dr, G so the consoles decide that this is a year that they should hold the great games, because Camillus had made a vow that this was going to happen during the war with Veii if Rome was victorious, and it was so obviously got to make sure those promises to the gods are fulfilled. And it's also in this year that the temple to Juno is dedicated. Now again, this relates to actions taken by Camillus during the war with they remember when the Romans are like, hey, Juno, why don't you pack up all your stuff here in this loser city, move on over to some guys with way more style. Dr G 12:34 And she's accepted that offer. And so obviously she needs a temple now, exactly. Dr Rad 12:39 So they've obviously been working on that, and it is officially dedicated. Officially dedicated in this year. So if this is all looking very promising, the Romans look like they're getting very square with the gods. Consuls are back. Patricians are at the top of the tree. I mean, what more Dr G 12:53 could you want? I was going to say it sounds like a patrician dream right now. I know now Dr Rad 12:59 I love this little detail that I think you will also appreciate, because it's not often we've got often we've got to speak about the ladies recently, apparently, Livy notes that there were throngs of very excited matrons present at the dedication of this temple. And he also says it in a way that I find intriguing as a historian, he says tradition relates that throngs of women were fangirling all over this temple, I know, says something about it being passed down, Dr G 13:30 perhaps. Now, do we know which version of Juno we're talking about here? Does this become Juno of the Capitoline, or is this another version of Juno Dr Rad 13:42 initial? Initially this temple to Juno is placed on the Aventine, which is interesting, because that's outside the pomerium, probably because at this stage, the Romans are a little bit suspicious of this Juno. She is, after all, someone who's only very recently made the switch. You don't want her inside the pomerium until you're sure that she's in for a long time, and not just a good time. Yeah, Dr G 14:09 you gotta build trust, you know, foreign god until proven otherwise, Dr Rad 14:13 exactly switching away from domestic affairs. Dr G there is a war with the Aequians, which takes place on Mount Algidus. Not very exciting, though, because even Livy gives me almost nothing and says it was a campaign in no way memorable. Dr G 14:31 Wow, Well, if I recall rightly, the last few times that we've talked about the Aequians, you've assured me that they've been completely destroyed by the Romans, so it wouldn't surprise me if they don't put in a good showing this time. Dr Rad 14:45 I know, and apparently what Livy means by it was in no way memorable. The Romans had basically beaten them before they'd even started fighting. I never know how that's possible, but maybe they just gave them a really dirty look, and the Aequians just shooken their little huh? Yeah, maybe sandals. I don't know what the Aequians would have been running around Dr G 15:03 in, wow, okay, the fearful glance and then the running away, Dr Rad 15:08 yeah, the Aequians flee before the Romans after this non fight, and Valerius, the Consul, pursues them, and again, we see a mass slaughter of Aequians. How these people keep bouncing back? I will never know the women in this place must be constantly pregnant to keep this city going. Dr G 15:26 It does sound intense every time they've come up against the Romans recently, it has not gone well for them. So how many Aequians Could there be left? Are they drawing from supporters from further south to replenish their lines? Goodness Dr Rad 15:40 knows, I only wish Livy would give me some numbers here. All he tells me is that Valerius was given a triumph for this mass slaughter of fleeing Aequians. Manlius, the other Consul, was obviously also involved, but not as much, because he was given the lesser ovatio. Dr G 15:58 Oh, I see Well, not quite as fancy as a triumph, but I suppose when the Aequians have run away, you've got to celebrate somehow. Dr Rad 16:05 Now we also have a war developing with the people of Volsinii. Dr G 16:10 Okay, where are these people? Are they related to the Volscians? Or are they slightly different? Dr Rad 16:15 This is apparently the first time that we have come across this in Livy's account. It's weird, because I kind of feel like I have, I've mentioned it before, but maybe it came up in a different way, but it is one of the 12 fabled Etruscan cities, but it's much further north than anything we've talked about before. Apparently it's about 50 miles north of Falerii. And no, that's not my own statistic there. Obviously I would never be talking in miles if it was, but it's, it's quite a long way away. Dr G 16:46 Okay, okay, so that's pretty deep into Etruscan territory. Dr Rad 16:49 Yes, unfortunately, it's at this moment that famine and pestilence strike against the Romans and their little mini empire that they are building, apparently caused by drought and a heat wave. And the Romans were so ill they couldn't really field an army against this enemy, which made the people from this place, the volcsinians, ease. What a mouthful. Overly confident. Dr, G, uh oh, that doesn't sound good. They joined forces with the people of Sappinates. Don't ask me, where that is. We don't know, presumably, not that far away. A typical Volsinii Move Yes. Now they decided that together, whilst the Romans were sick, they were going to start invading Roman fields. So the Romans pulled themselves out of their sick beds and very shakily declared war on everybody. Dr G 17:56 Hmm. I really wish I had more source material for this year, because it sounds exciting on some level, and I wish I had something to contribute. Dr Rad 18:04 Well, get ready for it, because we're about to have the death of someone very important. Oh, yeah, there was a sensor in place at this time called Gaius. Julius. He obviously gets sick at this time and dies. Dr G 18:23 Okay, so we had the census listed a couple of years ago. Now, I think it was actually only last year. It might have been the last year, yeah, and usually, although we're not sure about this early period of friends history, caveat always that the censorship does take at least a few years to fully enact so it's the kind of position that you might hold in an ongoing fashion over two or three years in order to get the job done. Now, would that be required in this early period of Rome's history? Dr Rad 18:53 I don't know. Well, according to Livy, definitely yes, because this guy is still in there and he dies, and we actually have confirmation of this in the Capitoline Fasti. So they also indicate that there was a guy with this name who was a sensor at this time, and he died. Dr G 19:11 Yes, these are all details that I have recorded for 393, where there is a suffect censor brought in to replace poor Julius. Dr Rad 19:23 That's right, because they basically just slot in a guy called Marcus Cornelius to take his place. Now, later on, the Romans see this as a dumb move. They feel like they were too hasty and maybe didn't pay proper attention to the details, because they think this is something that maybe annoyed the gods, you know, got to carry all things out, yeah, because it's during this particular lustrum that Rome is going to face some serious misfortune. So from then on, Livy tells us the Romans did not replace any censors who died. In office instead the partner who was elected alongside this censor, because, you know, the Romans love having multiple people sharing the same office, had to step down, and you had to bring in a totally new pair. Dr G 20:16 I see, okay, so you couldn't just have half the pair continue, and with a substitute in place, he had to get rid of everybody start Dr Rad 20:23 again. This is what Livy says anyway. It may be something that Livy is saying as a kind of way of upholding the Roman notion of always having colleagues together, I guess, bound, as it were, by a sacred obligation. Dr G 20:44 Well, the Romans do love that. They take that very Dr Rad 20:46 seriously indeed. Now, our poor consuls, they also fall ill with the plague that is all around Rome at this time. Oh, no. And they decide that therefore fresh auspices are needed through an interregnum. Dr G 21:03 Oh, okay, well, this is explaining a lot of the outstanding names that I had for 393, let me go back to that year, because I do have that sensor, surfactus. And then there's also all sorts of things. Oh, actually, wait a minute. Wait a minute. I have some interreges that come up in Dr Rad 21:25 391 Oh, that would be these guys. Yeah, Dr G 21:30 okay, can I excitedly tell you their names? You Dr Rad 21:33 may. I'm just going to explain the rationale for having them, of course. So Dr G 21:36 please do. Dr Rad 21:37 The consuls step down. So again, a bit of a you know, colleagues acting together, the colleagues that act together stay together. Dr G following the Senate's instructions. And the concern seems to be obviously around the idea that if they have interreges Or perhaps military tribunes rather than consuls, then they're not going to be left in the lurch, because there'll be so many of them that they can't all die of the plague. Look, there's some logic to it. You've got to admit sure, like, yeah, the more people that are in office, the less likely it is that they'll all die. Dr G 22:18 Yes, yes, indeed. We won't talk about disease theories or how viruses work. Dr Rad 22:24 Sure. I mean, yes, they can all get sick, but will they all die? I Dr G 22:29 think My bigger question at this point might be, why do we have interreges at all? This is a very old position that we haven't seen since the very early days of the Republic. And even then, it's a bit questionable, because what is really happening here, and interreges is meant to be a substitute, replacement, short term, for an absent king. And as we know, Rome doesn't have any Dr Rad 22:58 king, I know, but they do still revert to this whole idea of the interreges, I feel like it is just a still, the thing that they see as like a temporary placeholder whilst they're sorting out magistracies. It doesn't seem to be super long term this one, as you're about to note, as we slide into the magistrates of 391 there are only a few of these interreges who kind of pass the hot potato to each other before they then elect military tribunes with consular power. Okay. Dr G 23:24 Well, our Interreges, as far as I'm aware, are Marcus Furius Camillus, ding, ding, ding, star of the show, Publius, Cornelius Scipio, yep. And Lucius Valerius Potitus, Dr Rad 23:38 exactly. And that's exactly the order that they go in. Camillus is made the first interrex ,he then chooses Scipio to be the next interrex. And then Scipio runs like crazy around the forum before he tags Lucius Valerius Potitus. And then we have the six military tribunes chosen for 391 BCE, Dr G 23:58 which is very interesting, because Lucius Valerius Potitus was Consul, so he's been taken out of that position and then placed in this interim role as interrex instead. It's all about the formalities. What's going on in Rome. It's a chaotic time for everyone. Dr Rad 24:17 It is. Would you like to tell us who else we have? Because whilst the list for 392 is very short, the list for 391 is as long as your arm. Dr G 24:26 Well, I'd love to but first of all, I've got some things to say about 392 if indeed we're leaving that year, we are leaving that year. Wow, things have not stopped in Sicily plague or no plague, yeah. You know, people could be dying in the center of Italy, but down south, well, they're having a rollicking old time. So Diodorus Siculus does bracket this whole section, which I'm entitling Meanwhile in Sicily with some Roman information. So we do have this idea that we've got a guy called Lucius Valerius. Yes. And someone called Aulus Mallius, which is almost correct as consuls in Rome, and he dates this to the archonship of Antipater in Athens, which would place our date at around 389 to 388 BCE. And we know that Rome's dating is a bit out of sync with other places, and we're never really going to get quite back on track with that until quite some time later. But nonetheless, you Dr Rad 25:30 honestly, you could be right. I think about that, because there definitely are a lot of questions about the dates of the events that we've been talking about recently, as you know, and as you know, they are thought to be out by three years most of the Dr G 25:44 time. And it seems like on any given year, the Roman dating is out by 234, years. Yeah, really unclear. What's two or four years? It's just a whole Olympiad. It's fine, exactly. So we're down in Syracuse and Dionysus, the Tyrant of Syracuse. He has been having a back and forward time because previous to this, he decided he was going to do an invasion of the boot of Italy. He was like Sicily. Is not enough for me. I need the mainland. Not only that, he has what appears to be an exceptional array of forces, 20,000 infantry, what? 3000 cavalry, 40 ships of war, and 300 transport vessels for food supplies. Dr Rad 26:32 And I believe these numbers for a second. Dr G, he's Dr G 26:35 loaded the way that the Romans never will be. So he gets to Messina, that's the gelato, yeah. Just have a sneaky gelato for anybody in the world that is not based in Australia. Messina is a gelato brand, a Dr Rad 26:53 very famous one. If you have a visit, please do try some. Dr G 26:56 Yeah, come to Messina. Have some gelato so he gets to Messina rest his troops there. While he's doing that, he dispatches his brother, Thearides We've never heard mention of before, but apparently has been around this whole time. Thearides is tasked with 30 ships, and he send to the island of the Liparians. Now they get sent there. So the Liparians are slightly north of Sicily. Dr Rad 27:23 Are these the guys, the pirates we were talking about? Dr G 27:25 Yeah, the Liparian Pirates, yeah, yep. They've got their own island. Dr Rad 27:29 The most ethical pirates in the world. Dr G 27:31 They seem like good guys, they do, but they are also harboring 10 ships of the regians. And the regians are the people who are in Calabria, which is Reggio Calabria, so you can basically see their city from Messina and Dionysus of the Syracuse hates them with a fiery passion, and he knows that the Liparians are harboring regian ships, so he is not happy about that, and he sends his brother with three times As many ships as he's heard the reckons have. And he's like, deal with that. So he does. He heads up there, seizes the ships, seizes the crew, brings them all back to Messina. Dionysus promptly throws them into prison and turns them over to the messenians. Being like, have fun with them. I don't care about them anymore. And then he takes his whole army to a place called Colonia. And unfortunately, we don't have any idea where Colonia is, but we think it must be on mainland Italy. Sometime, he lays siege to that city, and really starts to lay into them day after they siege engines, frequent assaults on the city itself. I Dr Rad 28:40 hate to say it, dr, G, but I feel like they brought this on themselves with the name of their city for heaven's sakes maybe just asking to be conquered. Dr G 28:50 Come on. So the Greeks of Italy, and there are many, they are not happy about this. This is obviously a problem. And they're like, What are we going to do? The city of Croton is nearby. It's the biggest city nearby, and it also has the largest number of exiles from Syracuse, presumably people who are anti the tyrant. So the decision is made to give the crotons command of the war effort on mainland Italy, Dr Rad 29:19 Crotons in command. Dr G 29:24 They are. They're in command. They're doing their things. And they choose a guy called Heloris, who's also from Syracuse, another disaffected individual, to lead their army. They're like, this is going to be great. We'll seek a man who's angry in charge, and then we'll go for Dionysus, and we'll get that man. He'd been banished previously by Dionysus, so his hatred levels were pretty high, and everyone could tell he was a very angry man about it, and they're like, this is the guy to lead the war effort. We need somebody with that kind of strong, passionate outlook who will not be deter. Third from what is needed to succeed, he is given a command of 25,000 infantry and 2000 cavalry. So this is slightly smaller than the sorts of numbers that Dionysus is fielding at the moment, but it's still quite substantial. It is for this time period. For this time period, it's massive. Do we believe it? I don't know. I Dr Rad 30:26 don't believe anything. Diodorus says Dr G 30:30 they end up meeting slightly east of this place called Colonia at a river, and you're like, okay, so be it and Heloris being the angry, disaffected exile that he is with his nurtured hatred for Dionysius, he is riding in the Vanguard with 500 of his best troops. He's like, I'm gonna have at him. Let me at him. This ends up being a bit of a problem, I would say, for Heloris, because they don't realize that Dionysius knows that they're coming, and so they do get ambushed. It is unexpected for the crotons. They are not happy campers, and it is not long before Heloris found himself in desperate straits, as Diodorus tells us, and he is trying to find a way to extract his troops with minimal losses. And he also sends out a messenger quite quickly for backup and reinforcements. But the trouble is that the time frame's not it doesn't work out for him. He's sending for help. By the time help arrives, it's kind of too late. Dionysus troops have closed in, surrounded Heloris, and the 500 men, most of them, have been slain, even though they've really tried to resist. I feel like the thing that you want to imagine here is a bit like that monumental battle that happens in Game of Thrones, where Jon Snow is nearly nearly crushed, yeah, in the whole situation, it seems of that order of magnitude, Dionysus just has so many more troops. It's something that hilarious is not able to get over. So we've got this situation where the Italian Greeks are really trying to defend their homeland, or what they see as their homeland. The Italians might disagree, and it's not going so well. So what are they going to do? Obviously, they're feeling a little bit desperate. They're feeling a little bit subdued after this loss, and because they've lost their leader, the whole armed force that has been put to the field by the crotons tends to lose its way a little bit. They don't have the clear leadership that they need. They retreat to a hill, and immediately, Dionysus forces are ordered to surround that hill and to begin a siege. These are people that are caught out in the countryside with not enough supplies, and they're now trying to fortify in a place that is not set up for their defense. They've got to construct it from Dr Rad 33:09 scratch. I was going to say this sounds like it's going to be a short siege. Dr G 33:13 It may be a short siege. It doesn't take very long for them to suffer from the heat or from a lack of water, like they have some food supplies, but they're camping out on a hill, and we're talking Southern Italy. It's a nice, warm part of the world, even winter's quite nice. So they sent a herald to diocese, and they basically say, we're willing to surrender. You know, we would like to offer ourselves up for ransom, all of this kind of thing. He orders them to lay down their arms. And he doesn't necessarily accept this idea of just sort of the ransoming. He actually wants them to feel violated in some way, huh? So we get Dionysius the tyrant, not a nice guy, just Dr Rad 34:05 putting it out there. Oh no. I mean, I guess it's all in the name again, isn't it? He Dr G 34:09 basically has them stand there having surrendered for another eight hours in the hot sun. Oh, my God. And then takes a staff and has places it in the ground. Has the troops come towards him and counts them as they come. The Count comes to about 10,000 what? So he basically is asking them to pass under the yoke, this idea of the you've got to pass under the stars. Oh, Dr Rad 34:39 no, it's more the 10,000 I was saying that about not the not the act. Dr G 34:43 Well, they had sent 25,000 so the fact that only 10,000 had survived to be fortified on this hill in the first place, the losses already were quite significant. Dr Rad 34:53 Did he get a Cornetto and he licks it in front of their face, and he's like, Oh yeah, that tastes real good. Too bad. This is the last. Last 110 Dr G 35:02 1000. He lets them go without any ransom. He concludes peace with the cities, and he leaves them independent. And because he seems to be generous in this moment, after having made them stand in the sun for eight hours, apparently for his own pleasure, they do reward him with crowns, golden crowns, and he sees this as one of his great acts. Dr Rad 35:26 This is insanity. What's the point of all this, if he's just going to let them all go free with no repercussions whatsoever? Dr G 35:34 Well, I think the thing to keep in mind is that his bugbear is not with the crotons. His problem is with the Rhegians, and you might ask yourself, well, how did he come to have a problem with the Rhegians? Because that's never been clear why he's got an issue with them, but the story is now told to us. Diodorus Siculus does reveal the reason why he hates the Rhegians, and it's because at some point earlier on, he had wanted to marry well, and he had offered to marry the best of the Rhegian's daughters, and the regians insulted him by only offering him the daughter of the public executioner. Wow. Dr G 35:34 It's like the rape of the Sabines all over again. So much heartbreak in history when men are not given the brides that they seem to think they deserve. Dr G 35:52 Yes, there is nothing quite like the entitlement of a young man who thinks he deserves it so because of this slight that had happened, I'm not sure how long ago, but it still smarts for Dionysus, because obviously he didn't accept to marry the public executioner's daughter. You shock Dr Rad 35:52 me. Dr, G rude. Let me guess he gave that match the axe. Dr G 35:52 Oh no, yeah, it was dead in the water, if you like. He requires the Rhegians. In this moment, he asked for 300 talents, and because he's in a superior military position right now, they're not in a position to refuse. He also takes all of their ships, all 70, we are told, and he orders them to deliver him 100 hostages. And this is on the back of the fact that the Greek Italians have put all of their forces under the command of Heloris of Croton, formerly of Syracuse. And so the Iranians themselves have put forces into this so they themselves aren't able to raise something to defend themselves. So when Dionysus marches straight up to them and says, it's now time to pay up for your grievous insults, they're like, Oh no, we can't defend ourselves. Dr Rad 37:49 They can't really do that right now. Dr G 37:51 So he takes the hostages, sends them to Syracuse, and then he levels the city to the ground and gives the territory to the Cauloniates. Oh, the territory of the Cauloniates. So these are the people who was fighting originally to the Locrians. So it's getting very confusing. Dr Rad 38:11 I was gonna say you've lost me completely with the geography. Now all I'm thinking about is the Crotons and how you really should be more concerned about them, because the closer they get to the sun, the more their powers of being able to see through things with their bare eyes, and the ability to fly. You gotta watch it get stronger, get stronger every time. But they move at super speed too. They can leap tall buildings if they existed in this time with a single bounce. Dr G 38:37 I mean, it's really quite concerning, but it seems that what Dionysius, the Tyrant of Syracuse is trying to do is to turn the Greek Italians against each other and to splinter them off into sort of subgroups, so that they no longer able to reinforce each other and you can sort of more easily take them over. Okay, that seems to be the gist of it. So he's had a really big year, and we've also learned a little of his tragic backstory. Dr Rad 39:03 So watch this space where the douchebaggery began. Dr G 39:07 Yeah, everybody's got a villain origin story. And when you're a guy, it always relates to the things that you were denied, that you didn't really deserve but you thought you did. Yeah, there you go. The other thing I'd like to bring to 392, because I had such a dearth of source material, Dr Rad 39:24 like literally nothing. It doesn't seem to have been a great year for Rome, either, to be fair, Dr G 39:28 because I had so little. The only other thing that Diodorus tells us is that the Romans take the city of Liphoecua, which we don't know where that is from, the people of the Aequi. Dr Rad 39:41 Oh, okay, I was gonna say that just sounds like a really strange place name for the part of Italy that we're in. Dr G 39:49 I mean, I think he's wrong, but I don't know how to make that right, so we would know what was going on. And he does say that in accordance with the vows or the consuls, great games are held in honor of Zeus. Ah, there you go. So we do get that sort of link up. We've got some agreement, yes, there's some agreement, which Romans had games and then got really sick, the great games? No, well, Diodorus doesn't mention any of the sickness, so he's on to the big ticket items that are happening in Dr Rad 40:17 Rome. Squeeze me. Everybody got sick. It was a pretty big deal. They head interreges. Dr G 40:25 But was it as interesting as what Dionysus, the tyrant of Syracuse, was up to? Apparently, not, Dr Rad 40:31 maybe not. But that's because they were too ill to be interesting. Dr G 40:35 Well, there you have it. Guys. You heard it here first, the Romans, too ill to be interesting, just some of the time. So in the light of the dearth of information that I possess for 392 I was like, let us turn to the secondary sources. What do scholars have to say? And that's how I ended up reading Bernard's 2018, piece Rome, from the sack of Veii to the Gallic sack. Spoiler alert. Dr Rad 41:00 Damn it, those spoilers, they just keep coming up. It's usually Dr G 41:05 me. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Don't read it. Listeners don't read it. I will just tell you some of the pertinent things, and it's not going to be about the Gallic sack. So one of the questions that scholars have about this period is, what is going on with Rome's economy, because we know it hasn't been going well. And you've mentioned things like this pestilence there's and this has been going on for a couple of years. It would seem as well. They're not having a great time, but they've also just come into a whole new stack of land by taking they've gained a whole bunch of territory and booty, and presumably booty, and also potentially labor force, because whoever has been enslaved as a result of that conquest is now flowing into the Latin enslavement system, charming. So there's going to be bodies to go around in a horrifying way. This is just the way ancient Italy worked. I don't agree with it, but we do have this idea that there is economic disruption, decline, things, people aren't thriving. If we think about this narrative of Rome against the Aequians for the last few years as well, it's this backwards, forwards thing where, apparently the Aequians are always decimated, but Rome isn't seeming to make great grounds. It's not like they've had a significant conquest. These sorts of things suggest that what is happening at the moment in this early period of the fourth century is a little bit of a stress, because it seems like even taking they and having all of this new land doesn't necessarily enhance the prosperity of the Romans to a significant degree. Dr Rad 42:52 Oh, it's a lot of blood, sweat and tears. I mean, that's why they had to introduce the whole idea of military pay, which they almost certainly did not do. Dr G 43:01 Well, exactly. And so we've got all of this suggestion that this is a struggle in terms of a military situation, there's a lot of warfare, but not a lot of gains. They is a big exception to that. But even under the circumstances that Rome wins, how is that really being incorporated into Rome's economic situation? You would expect it by Dr Rad 43:27 being doled out to the plebeians. That's how, yeah, Dr G 43:31 you would expect it to be uplifting people, a little bit more than seems to be suggested by any of our source material, written or otherwise. And so this is the kind of case that Bernard is bringing forward, is that we've got labor and land, but we don't seem to see ongoing benefits to those acquisitions by the time we get 30 or 40 years down the track, the initial injection of these things into their economy seems to have really worn off, and they're back in what feels like an economic and manpower crisis again. So the whole situation with pestilence, the ongoing situation of people being killed in warfare, but not really gaining any traction. This doesn't seem to be a flourishing time for Rome, or for any of their neighbors, and the interesting things that are happening in South Italy, where they seem to have less pestilence, that doesn't seem to be going well for anybody either. They're engaged in this tussle of warfare as well. So there's a real pressure on people everywhere, it would seem right now to have the resources that they need to be satisfied with them. One of the drivers of warfare is not feeling like you've got enough, and there is a desperate attempt to gain more in order to do the needful. So there's a pressure on resources, and everybody's feeling the pinch, and this is leading to a lot of decisions that are making life more difficult for everybody. Dr Rad 45:00 Be, as you were saying that last little bit, it actually really made me think of our own time to a certain extent, not that we live in anything like the hardship of a Roman in the early fourth century BCE, but when we look around and compare ourselves to other people, and we have this real aspirational mindset of where we need to be, and we feel like we're we're very pinched at the moment. You know so much talk about cost of living, crisis and that sort of thing, and, oh boy, there's some foolish decisions being made in the world, Dr G 45:36 definitely. And there's this sense in which it's just not, it doesn't seem possible to really flourish. There's just too many impediments, whether it's related to the weather, whether it's related to population issues, whether it's related to the inability to capitalize on gains and whatever is up with Rome's economic system, is something that is of interest to scholars, partly because we we're going to see the emergence of coinage soonish. But how are they doing it? They still have concepts like debt that definitely exists by now, sure. And a lot of Romans seem to be in debt, yeah. How do you get yourselves out of something like that? And what does success for the Romans really look like in this period? And expansion doesn't seem to necessarily bring the expected benefits. Dr Rad 46:23 Well, it is one thing to take place. It's quite another to hold it. And that's, I think, why we see so much back and forth, sometimes between the Romans and their neighbors. However, to all of this discussion. Dr G, I think the Romans, if they were here right now, would say to you, listen, little lady, no pain, no gain. Dr G 46:45 Well, fair enough, just putting it out there, is that it seems like a complicated time, and that some of those complexities might be shielded from us by the nature of the source material. Yeah, like, what does the archeological record look like? How much is Livy really reflecting what we've actually got in terms of the history itself, and these are things that we're not sure about. Dr Rad 47:06 Well, this is the thing we know that Livy is working from sources that are probably pretty patchy, or at least he's working from sources which have had to put their accounts together from pretty patchy accounts, and looking back writing from their vantage point, I think it would make sense to present this time period as one of Roman expansion, and later on, expanding is what the Romans do best. So it seems like perhaps the beginning of something glorious for the Romans, and they is just such a conquest. You know, it would seem that this would have to be a period where Rome was doing really well, but perhaps, yeah, when you actually peel back the narrative a little bit, it's like, oh, well, it's a little bit more up and down than that. Dr G 47:55 Definitely, definitely. Well, that is all I have to say on 392, Dr Rad 48:01 well, I am shocked that my I think five sentences turned into quite this lengthy and episode. Dr, G, so Bravo for your Meanwhile in Sicily, and also, what's really going on in Rome. Segments, Dr G 48:14 what's really happening? I have questions. Dr Rad 48:18 That means that it is time for the partial pick. Dr Rad 48:27 Been too long since I heard your voice, Igor. Dr G 48:30 Igor, well, the partial pick our chance to judge Rome against her own standards. There are 50 Golden Eagles up for grabs, 10 in each category, the first being military clout. Dr Rad 48:46 Well, according to my account, the Romans win a very impressive victory, while apparently filing their nails. At the same time, Dr G 48:56 I was going to say, all they did was raise their eyebrows. I Dr Rad 48:59 know they just gave him a bit of blue steel, and those people went running for the hills. And from then, it was just a matter of Schwing, schwing, which is swords, it's nothing dirty. Dr G 49:10 Ah the schwing, schwing. Well, even Diodorus of Siculus says that I shouldn't say Diodorus. I was gonna say Diodorus Siculus. I think it's because I'm so used to say Dionysius. Dr Rad 49:28 Oh, I'd like to actually expand the name. I think it should be Diodorus of fully Siculus, Dr G 49:36 If only, if only, sometimes he does great. He does say that the Romans take a city of the Aequians. Dr Rad 49:42 This is true. This is true. I think they do have a victory of some sort against the Aequians. So that's something. But then, of course, we do have them being too ill to do much more than angrily declare war whilst vomiting into a bucket by their bed. Well, I mean, their fields are being ravaged. Dr G, and they're just. Sick to do anything about it. Dr G 50:01 Well, that's true. They're not able to stop the pillaging from happening. Not Dr Rad 50:06 really. There's a threat there. I mean, they're not taking it lying down, even though they are taking it while lying down Dr G 50:13 in good Roman style. That's right, all right. Well, maybe it's a two, Dr Rad 50:20 okay, that's a little me, like I was just trying to temper it a little bit. I wasn't trying to go too crazy here. I feel like it maybe has to be like a maybe a four and maybe a four, yeah, well, I mean an effortless victory, where they barely do nothing but massacre the Aequians, a triumph, an ovatio Dr G, that does suggest Dr G 50:44 something fancy did happen. And the other one got a triumph, which, you know, isn't bad for raising your eyebrows on any given Sunday. All Dr Rad 50:51 right, four, it is. Thank you. Thank you. Dr G 50:54 Our second category is diplomacy. Dr Rad 50:58 Well, I would say definitely not. There's angry staring and declarations of war all around. That's a zero, yeah, even, even in "Meanwhile in Sicily", it's nothing but fighting. Dr G 51:11 I'm not getting the Sicilians any points, never, expansion, Dr Rad 51:18 huh? This is a tricky one. I don't really believe Diodorus. It just seems to be more a encounter. It doesn't seem to be about expansion. At this point in time. Dr G 51:28 They take a whole city. It's not diplomatic, no, I know, but I just don't believe him. Wow, there's going to be a day where you will rue those words. Dr Rad 51:40 Look, I'll give them a one on the odds that Diodorus is correct. Dr G 51:45 I mean, I don't think they've engaged in any diplomacy. Taking a city is not Dr Rad 51:48 isn't this expansion? Dr G 51:51 Oh, yeah. Don't mind me. Expansion, yes. How many points were you giving? I'm Dr Rad 51:59 in the future. Dr, G, come join me. Dr G 52:03 I'm right with you. I'm right with you. Temporary lapse. Dr Rad 52:06 Maybe one, I don't know, maybe one, it's not mentioned in Livy, and if it's not mentioned in Livy, it's not a fact. Dr G 52:13 Wow. All right, the bias is starting to show through. Dr Rad 52:17 That's our next t shirt, by the way. One, one, okay, one, Ah, Dr G 52:28 okay. Weirdos. Do we see any signs of weirdos? Dr Rad 52:32 Not really. I mean, I do admire them for maintaining their militaristic attitude whilst extraordinarily ill. But I don't think you count that as weirdos, Dr G 52:43 yeah, waving your pitchforks while vomiting. No, okay, that's a zero, and then the citizen score. Dr Rad 52:52 I don't think this is very good either. I mean, sensors are dying and causing problems with the gods. The consuls get sick and they have to resign. Presumably, barbains are not immune to this disease. I don't think it's good. Dr, G, Dr G 53:06 it doesn't sound ideal. And having just finished off talking about this year with things aren't great on the economic front, or the labor market front, or any kind of front that we're aware of, I can't make a convincing case. I don't think for the citizens having a good time right now, I Dr Rad 53:24 think it has to be a zero. Wow. Well, I mean, you know, it's really serious, the pestilence, Dr G 53:31 it's all bad. Yes, this is a continuation of that one where I described, Dionysius of Halicarnassus. Described it as people scratching their skin down to the bone. Oh, yeah. I mean, this is, this is not a good time, all right, zero, okay. Well, they haven't done very well, have Dr Rad 53:48 they? They haven't really. It's a grand total of five Golden Eagles out of a possible 50. Well, that's Rome for you. Look lady for giving me so little material to work with. I was gonna Dr G 54:02 say sometimes the source material just doesn't give us enough to be able to hand out any points. Dr Rad 54:07 You know what? I think it's because they feel like they deserve a sick day. No, history doesn't stop when you get the plague Rome, clearly not horrifying stuff. There's another t shirt for you. Dr G 54:20 We're gonna have a whole shop of T Dr Rad 54:21 shirts. Podcast. I'm on a roll. What can I say? Well, Dr G 54:26 it has been a pleasure. Dr, rad, and I look forward to our next conversation Dr Rad 54:30 indeed. Dr, G, Dr Rad 54:39 Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians, you can find our sources sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy De Guzman. The partial historians is part of the Memory Collective, creators and educators dedicated to sharing knowledge that is accessible, contextualized, socially conscious and inclusive. To find more from the memory collective head to collectivemem.com. You too can support our show and help us to produce more engaging content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes and ad free content. Today, we would like to send a special shout out to some of the newest members of our partial band, Robert Finch, Rachel Parker, Tom King and Jonathan Lance. You can also support us by buying us a coffee on Ko fi. 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