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You Will Marry the Wrong Person (Couples Therapist Vienna Pharaon) · QUESTION EVERYTHING

0:03
Speaker 1: No one has all the answers, but when we ask
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Speaker 1: the right questions, we get a little closer, closer to truths,
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Speaker 1: closer to each other, even closer to ourselves. I'm journalist
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Speaker 1: Danielle Robe, and each week, my guests and I come
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Speaker 1: together to challenge the status quo and our own ways
0:22
Speaker 1: of thinking by daring to ask.
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Speaker 2: What if, why not?
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Speaker 1: And who says?
0:30
Speaker 2: So?
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Speaker 1: Come curious, dig deep, and join the conversation. It's time
0:36
Speaker 1: to question everything. About five years ago, I read an
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Speaker 1: article that was ten years old, published in twenty sixteen
0:45
Speaker 1: in The New York Times by Alan de Baton. It
0:50
Speaker 1: was called why You Will Marry the Wrong Person. I
0:53
Speaker 1: was obsessed with it. I'm still obsessed with it because
0:56
Speaker 1: at first the title feels insane, cynical, almost offense right,
1:00
Speaker 1: But the deeper idea underneath it totally captivated me. It's
1:05
Speaker 1: actually oddly liberating. The article asked the question, what if
1:09
Speaker 1: the biggest change in your relationship isn't finding the right person.
1:13
Speaker 1: What if it's understanding the person doing the choosing. So
1:17
Speaker 1: the author or the writer de Baton argues that there
1:20
Speaker 1: is no perfect person waiting to complete us. We are
1:24
Speaker 1: all imperfect evolving humans, carrying our own histories and wounds
1:28
Speaker 1: and expectations and blind spots into our relationships. The people
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Speaker 1: we love don't just meet who we are today, they
1:34
Speaker 1: meet every version of us that is still unfolding. But
1:38
Speaker 1: here's the part he doesn't fully answer in the piece.
1:40
Speaker 1: Why do we keep choosing the same kinds of relationships
1:43
Speaker 1: over and over again? Why do some people feel impossible
1:46
Speaker 1: to get over? Why do we stay too long? And
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Speaker 1: why do we know our patterns and still repeat them?
1:52
Speaker 1: And that's where today's guest comes in. Vienna Ferryon is
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Speaker 1: one of the most sought after licensed marriage and family
2:01
Speaker 1: therapists in the country. She's also the best selling author
2:04
Speaker 1: of The Origins of You. Her work begins with a
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Speaker 1: provocative idea, Your relationships didn't start when you met your partner.
2:11
Speaker 1: They started in your childhood, long before you knew who
2:15
Speaker 1: you would love. You were learning what love feels like,
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Speaker 1: what conflict feels like, what safety feels like, what belonging
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Speaker 1: feels like, and what you would possibly mistake for connection.
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Speaker 2: When attachment is at risk, we will trade authenticity every
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Speaker 2: single time.
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Speaker 1: Vienna says that almost all of us are carrying one
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Speaker 1: of five origin wounds worthiness, belonging, prioritization, trust or safety.
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Speaker 1: And until we understand those wounds, we keep recreating them.
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Speaker 1: She says, if you have any unwonted patterns in your
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Speaker 1: life today, your past is running the show.
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Speaker 2: If it is hysterical, it's historical.
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Speaker 1: I love that quote. If it's hysterical, it's historical. So
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Speaker 1: in this conversation, we talk about why we mistake the
3:02
Speaker 1: familiar for the right person, how to tell the difference
3:05
Speaker 1: between chemistry and conditioning, the questions that the healthiest couples
3:10
Speaker 1: ask each other that most of us avoid, and whether
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Speaker 1: relationships can truly recover from betrayal. She also shares the
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Speaker 1: one and only sign that you are in a healthy relationship.
3:22
Speaker 1: So today we're asking are we choosing our relationships or
3:26
Speaker 1: are our wounds choosing them?
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Speaker 2: For us?
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Speaker 1: It's time to question everything with Vienna Ferion Vienna true
3:40
Speaker 1: or false? Everybody will marry the wrong person.
3:43
Speaker 2: I have to go with false on that.
3:45
Speaker 1: Okay, say more, well, I feel like I married the
3:51
Speaker 1: right person.
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Speaker 2: So if I look at my own life, I feel
3:54
Speaker 2: like I have to say no to that. And then
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Speaker 2: I also, obviously work with so many couple and individuals
4:01
Speaker 2: in relationships and know their stories so intimately. And I
4:07
Speaker 2: think it probably depends how we're defining right and wrong. Yeah,
4:12
Speaker 2: so maybe we'll get into that. But it's not that
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Speaker 2: right is easy, you know. It's not that right is
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Speaker 2: without conflict or without hardship or trials and tribulations. And
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Speaker 2: I've said this before, there is no one other than
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Speaker 2: Connor who I want to go through the hard with.
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Speaker 1: That's what I hear from so many people that are
4:35
Speaker 1: happily partnered. Although that article says that we don't really
4:39
Speaker 1: seek happiness, we seek familiarity. Do you agree with that? Yeah?
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Speaker 2: I think unconsciously we're seeking familiarity and it's the good,
4:47
Speaker 2: it's the not so good. And then the way that
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Speaker 2: we participate with it is that we either do a
4:54
Speaker 2: path of repetition or we do a path of opposition.
4:58
Speaker 2: And and until we start to do some of this
5:02
Speaker 2: healing work and awareness work, Yeah, then I think it's
5:06
Speaker 2: probably true to say that we're dating, we're partnering with
5:09
Speaker 2: people who are going to contribute and participate in the
5:13
Speaker 2: rewounding of us.
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Speaker 1: So are we picking our partners based on love?
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Speaker 2: I think both, and I think both, and I think
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Speaker 2: it depends where you are in your awareness journey. You know,
5:29
Speaker 2: initially when we connect with someone, it's not based on love, right,
5:35
Speaker 2: like those first I really think that love is about
5:38
Speaker 2: knowing someone deeply, So that early butterfly stage, the honeymoon stage,
5:46
Speaker 2: the stage that lasts, you know, I think at most
5:49
Speaker 2: I think they say eighteen months somewhere around there. Sure
5:54
Speaker 2: we see the hard sometimes in the early parts, but
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Speaker 2: a lot of people don't, right, Some couples do. Some
5:59
Speaker 2: couples face hardship right away, but many couples don't see
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Speaker 2: the hardship or experience the hardship until later. And we
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Speaker 2: don't know a person until we've really seen all parts
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Speaker 2: of them, many parts of them, And it's hard for
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Speaker 2: that to happen right out of the gate. Doesn't mean
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Speaker 2: that it can't, right, But I think when you look
6:20
Speaker 2: at your average relationship across the board, most people are
6:24
Speaker 2: not going through hard or having their partner be fully
6:27
Speaker 2: revealed to them for a while. I remember, actually when
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Speaker 2: I was dating Connor, it was before we got engaged,
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Speaker 2: when we got into our first conflict. Don't know what
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Speaker 2: it was about, but this part of me that came
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Speaker 2: forward was this woman who was doubling down, tripling down,
6:44
Speaker 2: quadrupling down, needing to be right, needed to prove my point.
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Speaker 2: And I remember having this moment where it's just like ooh, right,
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Speaker 2: like this part of me is being revealed. He had
6:53
Speaker 2: not seen this part of me before writing that part
6:57
Speaker 2: of me had been set aside. I'd talk to right
7:00
Speaker 2: because we want to show up in this way we're
7:03
Speaker 2: likable and lovable. And you know, I still at that time,
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Speaker 2: I think, wanted to be easy going and I wore
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Speaker 2: the cool girl persona for a long time. And I
7:15
Speaker 2: remember this moment that really stands out to me, where
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Speaker 2: this part of me that felt so unbecoming and was
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Speaker 2: worried that he was going to not want to be
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Speaker 2: in the relationship anymore because this part had come forward.
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Speaker 2: It was like him seeing me through that moment felt
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Speaker 2: really like there was a shift that took place there.
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Speaker 2: And even though we don't have to get into the
7:41
Speaker 2: whole story, I tell the story a lot on shows,
7:43
Speaker 2: but I think the point that I want to make
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Speaker 2: about this was that there was a data point that
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Speaker 2: got exchanged in that moment where this part of myself
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Speaker 2: that I was judgmental love or critical of, ashamed of,
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Speaker 2: was revealed, and in it, this person across from me
8:02
Speaker 2: was able to walk alongside of me and not run
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Speaker 2: away from it, or not criticize it or not reject it,
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Speaker 2: was able to get curious about that part, to understand
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Speaker 2: that we make sense with context if we're willing to dig,
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Speaker 2: and not that context excuses behavior, but relationally, we're going
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Speaker 2: to need to excavate some things and not expect each
8:24
Speaker 2: other to be quote unquote perfect and show up in
8:27
Speaker 2: this perfectly packaged way. And so that moment felt like
8:32
Speaker 2: a moment where a pivot took place of Oh, I
8:37
Speaker 2: revealed this part and it didn't scare you away. It
8:40
Speaker 2: was something that you actually came closer to learning more
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Speaker 2: about and understanding more about, and that really shifted something
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Speaker 2: for me.
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Speaker 1: Would you say that that part of you was coming
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Speaker 1: from a wound?
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Speaker 2: For sure?
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Speaker 1: So so much of your work has to do with
8:54
Speaker 1: these five wounds. I kind of want to give everybody
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Speaker 1: the roadmap before we really dig in. You say that
9:00
Speaker 1: almost everyone is walking around with one of these five?
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Speaker 1: Will you share with those five?
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Speaker 2: Are sure one of them, many of them, sometimes all
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Speaker 2: five of them? So just to neutralize, right, so you
9:11
Speaker 2: don't have to be one. You don't have to be one.
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Speaker 2: I think we will have a dominant one or two.
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Speaker 2: I have a worthiness wound and a safety wound, and
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Speaker 2: a trust one will creep in there. Sometimes the five
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Speaker 2: are worthiness, belonging, prioritization, trust, and safety. And yeah, in
9:28
Speaker 2: that example, my safety wound was activated. And I'll give
9:33
Speaker 2: you a little context so that it makes sense. I
9:35
Speaker 2: don't know what Connor and I were fighting about, but
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Speaker 2: my assumption is that we disagreed on something because I
9:40
Speaker 2: needed to be right in that moment. I needed to
9:43
Speaker 2: show him and prove to him that he was wrong
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Speaker 2: and I needed to really prove my point and get
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Speaker 2: that across. And he actually had surrendered at some point
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Speaker 2: in the conflict where he's like, Okay, I get it.
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Speaker 2: I understand. I didn't stop, and I needed to be
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Speaker 2: right because being right was safety for me. I grew
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Speaker 2: up if my parents went through a nine year divorce
10:04
Speaker 2: process started when I was in first grade. There was
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Speaker 2: a lot of chaos and high conflict, paranoia, gaslighting, manipulation,
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Speaker 2: psychological abuse that was happening, and I was the observer
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Speaker 2: of it. I'm an only child, and I just you know,
10:18
Speaker 2: was watching it back and forth back and forth, and
10:22
Speaker 2: the manipulation, gaslighting, psychological abuse was towards my mom. And
10:26
Speaker 2: as a little girl watching this go down, how I
10:30
Speaker 2: made sense of it was that if you are right,
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Speaker 2: which my dad was masterful at being right, if you
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Speaker 2: are right, then you are safe, and if you're not right,
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Speaker 2: then you are not safe. Because I saw what that
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Speaker 2: did to my mom. I saw what it looked like
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Speaker 2: to not be able to prove your point, to not
10:48
Speaker 2: be able to explain yourself, to not be able to
10:50
Speaker 2: track all the details and not miss a beat. I
10:52
Speaker 2: saw what it did. And so from my little human position,
10:56
Speaker 2: I had decided really early on that being right, improving
11:00
Speaker 2: your point was where safety resided, and not being able
11:05
Speaker 2: to do that was the absence of safety. So fast
11:08
Speaker 2: forward into romantic relationships, and here's this moment again. I
11:12
Speaker 2: can't I have no clue what we're fighting about, but
11:14
Speaker 2: here's this moment where there is a disagreement. My guess
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Speaker 2: is there's a disagreement about something specific, right, some detail,
11:20
Speaker 2: and automatically right, my nervous system that's constantly scanning for
11:24
Speaker 2: every data point that's being exchanged here picks up on Wait,
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Speaker 2: you're trying to tell me something that is not true,
11:31
Speaker 2: where you're trying to disagree with something that I saw happen,
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Speaker 2: and so now I need to go into a place
11:36
Speaker 2: of self protection.
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Speaker 1: And nine year old Vienna shows up.
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Speaker 2: That's right.
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Speaker 1: So I have this thing I do when I'm in
11:42
Speaker 1: relationship with somebody, and it's only when we're in like
11:45
Speaker 1: true relationship. I keep a child, like a children's photo
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Speaker 1: of them on my phone in their contact so when
11:51
Speaker 1: they call me, it's the five, six, seven year old
11:55
Speaker 1: version of them. And I do it because when I
11:59
Speaker 1: am so frustrated or angry, I remind myself that that's
12:03
Speaker 1: the person showing up, and then I'm a little bit kinder.
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Speaker 1: But I do think it's very interesting that we all
12:09
Speaker 1: bring our like nine year old selves to the equation constantly.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, these younger when we have ruptures around the wounding
12:16
Speaker 2: or traumas that we experience, or these fragmented parts of us,
12:20
Speaker 2: you know that it happens, there's a fragmentation that happens,
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Speaker 2: and so this younger part of ourselves will show up.
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Speaker 1: You know.
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Speaker 2: When I don't encourage you to ask your partner this
12:29
Speaker 2: in a heated moment, but I very lovingly and compassionately
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Speaker 2: inquire with you the listener, when you think about these
12:37
Speaker 2: moments where you become super activated and you go into
12:41
Speaker 2: this space a fight flight, freeze or fawn, how old
12:45
Speaker 2: you feel, you know, when I am really triggered, when
12:49
Speaker 2: I'm activated, when I am no longer anchored and grounded
12:52
Speaker 2: in my place, I don't feel like a forty year
12:56
Speaker 2: old woman.
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Speaker 1: No, I feel like I'm in fifth grade.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I'm either a ten or even younger
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Speaker 2: than that. Right, It's like these really younger parts that
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Speaker 2: are trying to figure out how to you know, navigate
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Speaker 2: this moment. And it's not this wise anchored adult self
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Speaker 2: who's in the room. And so I love that you
13:17
Speaker 2: keep that younger picture and it's a reminder and not
13:22
Speaker 2: an excuse, but a reminder that, yeah, these these younger
13:26
Speaker 2: experiences are present with us in this moment, right, because
13:30
Speaker 2: if there is a big activation that's happening, as they
13:33
Speaker 2: often say, if it is hysterical, it's historical. Yeah, that's
13:37
Speaker 2: a great saying. Yeah.
13:39
Speaker 1: I was going to ask you how you can figure
13:41
Speaker 1: out what your wound is, but I was on your
13:43
Speaker 1: website and you have this amazing quiz that you can
13:45
Speaker 1: take it's like five minutes long, and it tells you
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Speaker 1: what your dominant wound is. Your mind came up as worthiness.
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Speaker 1: What you're saying is your dominant one.
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Speaker 2: So one of them.
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Speaker 1: So how does a worthiness wound in particular show up
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Speaker 1: in dating a relationship?
13:58
Speaker 2: Totally? Okay, So to all my perfectionist pleasers performers out there,
14:05
Speaker 2: you know this is one because a worthiness wound often
14:08
Speaker 2: originates because there were conditions to love or connection or presence.
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Speaker 2: So think straight a's or performing well on the field,
14:19
Speaker 2: getting the hat trick or becoming being the comic relief
14:23
Speaker 2: in the family in order to get connection, validation, attention, praise,
14:26
Speaker 2: et cetera. You know, a lot of times there are
14:29
Speaker 2: conditions to our love. I need you to be X,
14:31
Speaker 2: y and Z in order to get me as your
14:33
Speaker 2: parent or as your caretaker, to be connected or loving
14:37
Speaker 2: or present with you. And so yeah, fast forward. It
14:41
Speaker 2: still shows up a lot of times in that way. So,
14:45
Speaker 2: oh gosh, in the dating space, the worthiness wound, I
14:49
Speaker 2: think it blends sometimes into other wounds too. But this
14:53
Speaker 2: idea of needing to be perfect, whatever that means to you,
14:57
Speaker 2: but needing to be perfect in order to be chosen
15:00
Speaker 2: needing to be XYZ fill in the blank with whatever
15:03
Speaker 2: it is. But it's a lot of abandoning what is
15:06
Speaker 2: actually true for us. It's not believing that we are
15:11
Speaker 2: put it simply right, It's like that we're not worthy
15:13
Speaker 2: or valuable without needing to fill some role of perfection,
15:19
Speaker 2: of pleasing, of performing for the other person. And yeah,
15:24
Speaker 2: it's a quick way to move really far away from yourself.
15:31
Speaker 1: I think that for time's sake, trust and safety. I
15:34
Speaker 1: can kind of imagine how that shows up. How does
15:38
Speaker 1: belonging show up?
15:39
Speaker 2: So my work starts at looking at the family of origin.
15:44
Speaker 2: So I'm well aware that we have society and media
15:49
Speaker 2: and school and teachers and coaches, all of that, friends, friends'
15:52
Speaker 2: parents that will influence and shape some of this as well.
15:57
Speaker 2: But I look at the family of origin. That's the
16:00
Speaker 2: lens through which I see all of us to begin.
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Speaker 2: And so when I look at the family of origin
16:07
Speaker 2: and the belonging wound, a lot of families have this
16:11
Speaker 2: mantra almost of this is who we are, you know,
16:14
Speaker 2: this is who we are, this is what we believe,
16:16
Speaker 2: this is how we operate in the world. And so
16:19
Speaker 2: you either you need to be like us or else.
16:23
Speaker 2: So a lot of times the black sheep of the
16:25
Speaker 2: family will experience this, and I love there's Gobormante talks
16:31
Speaker 2: about how authenticity and attachment are our two lifelines as
16:39
Speaker 2: little humans in the world, but when attachment is at risk,
16:46
Speaker 2: we will trade authenticity every single time as children because
16:50
Speaker 2: you must, right, we have to. We need a home,
16:54
Speaker 2: we need food, we need some type of connection, and
16:57
Speaker 2: so we don't know how to tolerate being who we
17:02
Speaker 2: are at the risk of losing someone else, especially a
17:05
Speaker 2: family member, right at the beginning. And sometimes we'll see
17:08
Speaker 2: a rebellion take place at some point, but early early on,
17:12
Speaker 2: if you have to choose between attachment, quote unquote attachment
17:17
Speaker 2: or authenticity, you're going to choose attachment each time.
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Speaker 1: Which wound creates the most loneliness?
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Speaker 2: Oh, that's a great question. I have never thought about
17:42
Speaker 2: it that way before. I think they must all probably
17:50
Speaker 2: have really brush up against that in their own ways.
17:57
Speaker 2: I think about a trust wound where you're constantly waiting
18:01
Speaker 2: for something to go wrong, for a lie, for deceit,
18:04
Speaker 2: for betrayal to happen. You're expecting that somewhere, and how
18:07
Speaker 2: lonely that must be. I think about a prioritization wound
18:10
Speaker 2: and how you feel deprioritized where the most important people
18:13
Speaker 2: in your life are choosing something other than you chronically,
18:17
Speaker 2: and how lonely that must feel. I think about worthiness
18:20
Speaker 2: and belonging and how when you are trading who you
18:23
Speaker 2: are to try to fit in or to try to
18:25
Speaker 2: be accepted and loved and valued, that to even get
18:31
Speaker 2: that but it's not actually you that that must feel
18:36
Speaker 2: lonely to you, know, like all of them, I think
18:39
Speaker 2: will make a really good case for being quite lonely. Yeah,
18:46
Speaker 2: I really do. I think all of them in their
18:48
Speaker 2: own way. And the thing about wounds is that it's
18:50
Speaker 2: how each person internalizes the experience. So it's not that, oh,
18:56
Speaker 2: if you had let's say your father abandoned you, that
19:00
Speaker 2: doesn't slot you into a worthiness wound automatically, right, It's
19:05
Speaker 2: like how you experience that thing. So for one person,
19:11
Speaker 2: that experience might slot into a worthiness wound, and the
19:14
Speaker 2: narrative might be I am not worthy because you left
19:20
Speaker 2: and you didn't think I was good enough to stick around.
19:22
Speaker 2: For somebody else, that might slot in as a trust wound.
19:25
Speaker 2: The most important people in my life will leave me
19:29
Speaker 2: and abandon me, and I can't trust those people to stay.
19:33
Speaker 2: So when I think about it through that lens, I think, okay, yeah,
19:36
Speaker 2: it's how does this experience make each individual person feel lonely?
19:41
Speaker 2: My guess would be.
19:43
Speaker 1: All of them? Yeah, yeah, you said something earlier about
19:48
Speaker 1: you had a great phrase. You either are opposing or
19:52
Speaker 1: what is repeating? So opposing or repeating? And it made
19:55
Speaker 1: me think. My mom always says when I'm dating, don't
19:58
Speaker 1: look at the guy, just wipe him over and look
20:01
Speaker 1: at his father, which is triggering for me. But I
20:06
Speaker 1: get what she's saying, and you righte that some of
20:09
Speaker 1: us become our parents and others become the exact opposite
20:12
Speaker 1: of our parents. How do we choose? How does that happen?
20:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think lovingly to your mom, I don't
20:18
Speaker 2: know that I would fully agree with it, because it
20:21
Speaker 2: really depends on the person's journey from there. You know,
20:24
Speaker 2: if we look at our parents and then just assume
20:28
Speaker 2: that we are simply the extension of them, or that
20:32
Speaker 2: we'll get a look into our future by looking at them,
20:36
Speaker 2: I think it falls short and doesn't give us enough
20:40
Speaker 2: credit for the work that many people do. Okay, we
20:45
Speaker 2: all know the path of repetition it's sort of the oh,
20:49
Speaker 2: my father was an alcoholic and now I have dated
20:52
Speaker 2: Now I'm dating an alcoholic. Or maybe it's not even
20:55
Speaker 2: apples to apples, like my father was an alcoholic, and
20:57
Speaker 2: now I'm dating somebody who is a work centric, right,
21:02
Speaker 2: and so I'm still deprioritized or I still don't feel
21:05
Speaker 2: worthy in this relationship. But I'll give an example of
21:08
Speaker 2: the path of opposition when it comes to conflicts. For example,
21:11
Speaker 2: So maybe you grow up in your family and it's
21:14
Speaker 2: high conflict, and conflict is scary. Maybe there's even abuse,
21:20
Speaker 2: but it's not a it's it's high tempers. You are like,
21:23
Speaker 2: I do not want to be around this. This is
21:25
Speaker 2: scary to my nervous system. I don't like it at all.
21:29
Speaker 2: So you move through life and somewhere along the way
21:32
Speaker 2: you decide, I'm never going to do that again. You know,
21:34
Speaker 2: I don't. I don't want to engage in conflict that way.
21:36
Speaker 2: That's that's not a good way to be. And so
21:39
Speaker 2: you swing that pendulum, and now you move through life
21:44
Speaker 2: not engaging in conflict. Right now from the outside looking in,
21:47
Speaker 2: that might objectively look much better to the outside world.
21:52
Speaker 2: You started in a place that was dangerous. That was
21:54
Speaker 2: not Oh gosh, high conflict, high tempers, really scary, And
21:58
Speaker 2: now you don't have conflict. This amazing, Okay, great, Except
22:02
Speaker 2: if we get a little more curious and we start
22:04
Speaker 2: to peel back some of those layers, what we maybe
22:08
Speaker 2: see here is that this person who it doesn't enter
22:11
Speaker 2: into conflict anymore and has a fairly peaceful life is
22:14
Speaker 2: never getting a chance to say what they need to say.
22:18
Speaker 2: They're never getting a chance to be expressed. They are
22:22
Speaker 2: fearful of what is attached to their story and experience
22:26
Speaker 2: of what conflict is. So they've swung the pendulum to
22:29
Speaker 2: say I want to move through life this way because
22:31
Speaker 2: this way seems safer and better. And arguably maybe it
22:34
Speaker 2: is safer. But is it, Betters, Has it moved you
22:41
Speaker 2: to a place where you feel healthy, where you feel
22:46
Speaker 2: like you get to say what you need to say
22:49
Speaker 2: and have that be something that is heard and understood.
22:52
Speaker 2: It skips over something really important. The path of integration
22:56
Speaker 2: is something I talk about in the book, and I
23:00
Speaker 2: want people to be aware of the ways in which
23:02
Speaker 2: they do swing the pendulum. Oh my gosh, I never
23:05
Speaker 2: want that. I'll never be like that. I'll never recreate that,
23:08
Speaker 2: and then we work so hard to do the opposite
23:10
Speaker 2: because we think the opposite is better than the thing
23:14
Speaker 2: that hurt us or harmed us in the first place.
23:17
Speaker 2: But if you walk through life and relationship with sort
23:21
Speaker 2: of those horse blinders around you around your eyes, I
23:26
Speaker 2: think we often lead ourselves just to a new position
23:30
Speaker 2: that isn't exactly what we want either. Because we all
23:33
Speaker 2: know that communication is vital in relationships. We all know
23:37
Speaker 2: that to be authentically expressed in relationship is important. We
23:42
Speaker 2: know that the healing part of this is not the
23:45
Speaker 2: avoidance of hard conversations. It's the ability to have a
23:50
Speaker 2: hard conversation and to trust the other person across from
23:53
Speaker 2: you is able to hear it and hold it and
23:55
Speaker 2: get curious with it and meet you in that moment.
23:58
Speaker 2: That is what is healing. What is healing is not
24:01
Speaker 2: sidestepping it and avoiding it at all costs and creating
24:04
Speaker 2: a life where you never touch the hot coal. Right,
24:08
Speaker 2: It's that, Oh, I'm not going to touch the hot
24:10
Speaker 2: coal with my hand, but I have these tools that
24:12
Speaker 2: help me get close to this thing. It's hot, it's hard, right,
24:16
Speaker 2: it's a little scary, but I'm going to show myself.
24:20
Speaker 2: We are going to show each other how to do
24:22
Speaker 2: this differently than we had been taught or than we
24:25
Speaker 2: had experienced previously.
24:26
Speaker 1: But are you saying that that's opposition or repetition?
24:31
Speaker 2: The path of integration is the goal?
24:34
Speaker 1: Is that hits me either? Right?
24:36
Speaker 2: Yeah? So repetition blindly right, is not what we want
24:40
Speaker 2: unless it's something that's healthy, right, right, And then opposition
24:45
Speaker 2: is also not what we want.
24:46
Speaker 1: It's integration. Yeah. Yeah, So how do you know if
24:49
Speaker 1: you're choosing someone out of familiarity or out of this
24:54
Speaker 1: is actually right for me?
24:55
Speaker 2: I don't think you know it right away? How fun right?
24:58
Speaker 2: But it's I remember I first started dating Connor, and
25:02
Speaker 2: right at the beginning, I was like, this is either
25:04
Speaker 2: going to absolutely rewound me or it's going to be
25:07
Speaker 2: the beautiful love story that I want. And I don't
25:09
Speaker 2: know what it is. And I think one of the
25:11
Speaker 2: things about dating that that is important for people to
25:15
Speaker 2: hear is that it's not about actually knowing right out
25:19
Speaker 2: of the gates. Now, there might be some things that
25:20
Speaker 2: are really easy to spot, right, Okay, fine, but love
25:25
Speaker 2: and relationships are intricate and they're complex, and we don't
25:30
Speaker 2: always know all of the things that we need to
25:33
Speaker 2: know right away. And so my goal post for you
25:37
Speaker 2: is not about never entering into something that might be
25:42
Speaker 2: a pattern but you're not quite sure. It's about being
25:46
Speaker 2: aware and when you know, then having the capacity to exit.
25:53
Speaker 2: You understand what I.
25:54
Speaker 1: Mean, not staying in it? Yes, yes, okay, Can I
25:57
Speaker 1: ask you a question about this? I stay too long.
26:00
Speaker 1: It's a thing that I've ben working on. However, I
26:04
Speaker 1: see a lot of and I know you do too,
26:08
Speaker 1: like a lot of really awesome women who are aware
26:11
Speaker 1: of their patterns, aware of many of the things that
26:14
Speaker 1: they are wounded by, and still continue to make choices
26:20
Speaker 1: that aren't necessarily integrated. I kind of put myself in
26:24
Speaker 1: that pile.
26:25
Speaker 2: What is that There's a difference between knowing versus showing
26:32
Speaker 2: yourself a new way and being able to tolerate it.
26:37
Speaker 2: In our minds, we can connect all of the dots,
26:39
Speaker 2: we can have all the light bulb moments. We can
26:42
Speaker 2: know what the pattern is, we can know where it
26:44
Speaker 2: came from. We might even laugh over a coffee about
26:48
Speaker 2: the fact that I've dated my father or my mother
26:51
Speaker 2: for so many times. Right, we might find comedy in
26:55
Speaker 2: it at times. The difference is about showing yourself how
26:59
Speaker 2: to choose differently and to tolerate the consequence of that.
27:05
Speaker 2: And when I say the consequence of that, what I
27:07
Speaker 2: mean is to tolerate the relationship ending, or to tolerate
27:10
Speaker 2: not being chosen, to tolerate setting a boundary when you
27:14
Speaker 2: normally wouldn't, to tolerate what happens when you choose not
27:20
Speaker 2: to be in a relationship than just being in one,
27:23
Speaker 2: because you have identified that being in one is better
27:26
Speaker 2: than being alone. It's the consequence of the things that
27:31
Speaker 2: we know we ought to be doing. That part is
27:34
Speaker 2: so hard for us to tolerate. Now, when we do
27:37
Speaker 2: those things and follow through on them and experience whatever
27:40
Speaker 2: that consequence is, then we are showing ourselves that we
27:44
Speaker 2: can do it. And that's what expands our ability to
27:47
Speaker 2: move from knowing to showing.
27:51
Speaker 1: I like that, I like that better than doing. One
27:54
Speaker 1: line from your book really stayed with me. Right. More
27:56
Speaker 1: likely than not, your past is running the show, and
27:59
Speaker 1: if you're not conscious of it, you're likely suffering from it.
28:03
Speaker 1: A lot of your clients come in saying that I
28:05
Speaker 1: know therapists love talking about childhood, but I don't want
28:08
Speaker 1: like I don't want to talk about that. I want
28:09
Speaker 1: to talk about this problem. I'm going to put my
28:12
Speaker 1: mom on blast. She won't go to therapy because she's like,
28:15
Speaker 1: I don't need to go through my whole childhood. Why
28:18
Speaker 1: are we so resistant to the idea that our past
28:20
Speaker 1: is shaping us.
28:22
Speaker 2: I don't think we like to feel out of control,
28:25
Speaker 2: you know. I think this idea that something from decades
28:27
Speaker 2: ago somehow has control over us is not a fun
28:31
Speaker 2: idea for us to swallow. I also think that we're
28:35
Speaker 2: afraid of what the excavation might do. What will I
28:39
Speaker 2: find if I start to dig. I think we have
28:43
Speaker 2: narratives around being grateful, and it confuses the idea that
28:48
Speaker 2: looking at your childhood means that you're ungrateful or you're
28:52
Speaker 2: going to place blame instead of just having respect or
28:58
Speaker 2: gratitude for what they do. To do is something that
29:01
Speaker 2: moves us away from them. I think we have generational shifts.
29:07
Speaker 2: So my parents were better than their parents were to them,
29:11
Speaker 2: so I don't have a right to say much. We
29:14
Speaker 2: have wound comparison where people say so and so story
29:17
Speaker 2: is so much worse than mine, So I don't have
29:19
Speaker 2: a right to you know, acknowledge or claim anything and
29:24
Speaker 2: I like to move people away from that. It is
29:26
Speaker 2: not a competition. You know, your wounds are not in
29:29
Speaker 2: competition with somebody else's. This is about acknowledging what your
29:33
Speaker 2: experience was, and back to that quote, understanding how it
29:36
Speaker 2: is running the show, because it is running the show.
29:39
Speaker 2: If you have any unwanted patterns in your life current day,
29:42
Speaker 2: it's running the show.
29:44
Speaker 1: If you are good, Wait to say that again.
29:46
Speaker 2: If you have any unwanted patterns in your life today,
29:49
Speaker 2: it's running the show.
29:51
Speaker 1: That's good.
29:52
Speaker 2: It's true if your life is peaceful and great.
29:57
Speaker 1: But if there's anything where you have an outsize reaction,
30:00
Speaker 1: or you are frustrated that you're doing the same thing
30:02
Speaker 1: over and over again and it's not working, your past
30:04
Speaker 1: is running this.
30:05
Speaker 2: I keep dating the same types of people, even though
30:07
Speaker 2: I know better. I can't set the boundary, even though
30:09
Speaker 2: I promised I would.
30:11
Speaker 1: I'm people pleasing even though it doesn't feel good.
30:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, right, those unwonted patterns. The arrow is pointing
30:18
Speaker 2: back to origin wounds that need our attention.
30:34
Speaker 1: Okay, so in the article that I love, I don't
30:37
Speaker 1: even know how to pronounce his name, Elaine de Bouton.
30:40
Speaker 1: I think he wrote that the standard question on an
30:43
Speaker 1: early dinner date should be and how are you crazy?
30:47
Speaker 1: With respect to this man, because I love this article.
30:49
Speaker 1: I hate that question, so I want to ask you
30:52
Speaker 1: yours is your question? Which wound am I? And which
30:57
Speaker 1: one are you?
30:58
Speaker 2: I don't know that that would be my record mandation
31:00
Speaker 2: on a first date. Ever. I think sometimes we jump
31:05
Speaker 2: into the vulnerability space really early on, and you and
31:09
Speaker 2: I actually had a conversation about this off air, off
31:13
Speaker 2: camera before, where this idea of sort of that forced
31:17
Speaker 2: vulnerability really early on before something is earned, is a
31:21
Speaker 2: little strange, and I think.
31:24
Speaker 1: You could tell them why could We'll give them something
31:26
Speaker 1: to hold on too, So it's like a concrete idea.
31:28
Speaker 1: So years ago, I went on a date with this
31:30
Speaker 1: guy who had this like forced intimacy. He was saying
31:35
Speaker 1: these things to me that made me feel like he
31:38
Speaker 1: was like so into it, and I was like, you
31:41
Speaker 1: don't even know me, Like what are you into? So
31:43
Speaker 1: it felt weird. It didn't it didn't settle, right, Yeah,
31:47
Speaker 1: so sorry.
31:47
Speaker 2: But that's it, right, It's like this forced intimacy, this
31:50
Speaker 2: forced vulnerability. I think there is a light and fun
31:54
Speaker 2: and kind of playful way to get to know each
31:57
Speaker 2: other and to really tight trait that experience. It's little
32:00
Speaker 2: bits of vulnerability, little bits of intimacy, to see how
32:04
Speaker 2: that feels and how it's received. And maybe you talk
32:07
Speaker 2: a little bit about your family, but not the wounding
32:10
Speaker 2: from your childhood. Maybe something that's just about how you
32:14
Speaker 2: spend your holidays together, or you know, what summer activity
32:18
Speaker 2: you do right, something that lets you into what your
32:21
Speaker 2: world looks like without it being the darkest, deepest depths
32:26
Speaker 2: of your soul. Because I do think that that's it's
32:30
Speaker 2: it's probably a bit too soon.
32:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, Although I think some people as they get older,
32:35
Speaker 1: they're like, I just want to let you know, Like
32:37
Speaker 1: here's my bag, here's you know, here's what I don't
32:39
Speaker 1: even like that word, but here's what's on the table.
32:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'm with you. Yeah, and SETI wins the race.
32:49
Speaker 2: I know people who just want to get to the point.
32:51
Speaker 2: But also it still takes a little bit to get
32:58
Speaker 2: to that place where it's actually safe to do that,
33:01
Speaker 2: because where I started around, the definition of being able
33:05
Speaker 2: to love someone right is to know them well deeply.
33:11
Speaker 2: And it's like I want to be loved by you.
33:14
Speaker 2: I'm going to let you know me right away. But
33:17
Speaker 2: knowing someone is not because you just give them the
33:21
Speaker 2: facts of your life and the details of your story.
33:24
Speaker 2: Knowing someone is through hours, time spent experience together. And
33:31
Speaker 2: so yeah, I think we can give high level stuff,
33:33
Speaker 2: but ultimately you're just placing your whole story on somebody's plate.
33:38
Speaker 2: Who's like, I don't even know if I want to
33:42
Speaker 2: hold this yet. I'm not sure I'm ready for that.
33:45
Speaker 2: So yes, but look, I think that question is funny,
33:49
Speaker 2: and I'm sure he meant I assume he meant it
33:53
Speaker 2: as a just tell me you know what's you're crazy
33:56
Speaker 2: and what are your wounds? And look, there's certain things
33:58
Speaker 2: that have been so normalized in our culture over time,
34:01
Speaker 2: like what's your attachment style or what's your love language?
34:05
Speaker 2: I actually think that that has become a question that
34:08
Speaker 2: people are willing to ask an answer on a first date.
34:11
Speaker 1: Wait, can I talk to you about this? I went
34:12
Speaker 1: on a date where someone asked me that, and I
34:14
Speaker 1: thought it was really an invasive question. Well, there you
34:17
Speaker 1: have it, but here's why, and tell me if you
34:19
Speaker 1: think I'm wrong. I'm so open to feedback. Always he
34:21
Speaker 1: asked me the question. First of all, I felt like
34:23
Speaker 1: he had gone to his therapist and was like, what
34:26
Speaker 1: questions should I ask on a date? And then was
34:28
Speaker 1: repeating them. However, he asked it, and I was like,
34:31
Speaker 1: I don't want to tell someone on a first date
34:33
Speaker 1: that one of my love languages is physical touch, Like,
34:35
Speaker 1: it's not an invitation for that. I don't want you
34:37
Speaker 1: to think I'm like overly Sexualizedly it just came with
34:40
Speaker 1: all this baggage, and so I actually was like, I
34:43
Speaker 1: don't want to answer that.
34:44
Speaker 2: Sure, I'm glad that you set that boundary. I do
34:47
Speaker 2: think a lot of these questions are just again, like
34:50
Speaker 2: I'm saying things that need to be earned over a
34:53
Speaker 2: load bit of time. And I think that those first
34:57
Speaker 2: dates should be fun and playful and yes, of course
35:01
Speaker 2: like oh here's where I grew up and those types.
35:04
Speaker 2: If you're curious, you will extract so much from a
35:09
Speaker 2: person without it being intrusive.
35:12
Speaker 1: I think people don't like small talk, but I think
35:14
Speaker 1: you small talks you can earn big talk. Yeah, what
35:17
Speaker 1: are the signs that you are dating or married to
35:20
Speaker 1: an emotionally immature person?
35:24
Speaker 2: Oh, this topic. I think there's a lot of immaturity
35:29
Speaker 2: in the world, and it's our job and look I'm
35:34
Speaker 2: going to flip that question too, because I also want
35:36
Speaker 2: people to think about it within themselves as well. We
35:40
Speaker 2: all have some immaturity to us, and hopefully we also
35:43
Speaker 2: have some maturity as well. But I don't want us
35:46
Speaker 2: to only think about if I'm dating somebody who is
35:49
Speaker 2: emotionally immature. I want you to also think about the
35:52
Speaker 2: ways in which your immaturity comes to the table.
35:56
Speaker 1: That's a great point, Okay.
35:57
Speaker 2: I again, I am always looking at things relationally, and
36:01
Speaker 2: if our spotlight is on the other person and we're
36:03
Speaker 2: not looking at it within ourselves, we are skipping over
36:06
Speaker 2: something really important there, Okay. Emotional maturity is about being
36:14
Speaker 2: able to see your part, see their part, discern the difference.
36:20
Speaker 2: Immaturity goes to a place of defensiveness. It goes on
36:24
Speaker 2: the attack a lot of times. It's sort of this
36:26
Speaker 2: manipulative language of Okay, well, then I guess I'm the
36:29
Speaker 2: worst fill in the blank, mother, father, partner, child, et cetera. Right, So,
36:34
Speaker 2: when we go to these places that feel a little
36:36
Speaker 2: bit charged with some drama and manipulation, that we've lost
36:41
Speaker 2: the thread. We struggle with emotional maturity because we struggle
36:47
Speaker 2: with shame. We struggle with emotional maturity because we can't
36:53
Speaker 2: hold in both hands. We can't hold in both hands
36:59
Speaker 2: our humans and our compassion and grace. So when your
37:05
Speaker 2: feedback to me cues some type of threat, I have failed,
37:11
Speaker 2: I am a letdown, I am unworthy, I am imperfect
37:15
Speaker 2: whatever it is, and those things, there's an association with
37:18
Speaker 2: what that means. Then I move into a state of
37:21
Speaker 2: self protection, defensiveness. Maybe I criticize you, well, you know
37:25
Speaker 2: what you did last week that sucked. You're not so perfect,
37:28
Speaker 2: are you right? Like moves into that place, or it
37:31
Speaker 2: moves into the drama that I was talking about, or
37:33
Speaker 2: it gives the explanation. All of those things are emotional immaturity.
37:38
Speaker 2: I cannot hold your emotional experience while holding mine.
37:42
Speaker 1: I had a very outsized reaction. I was angry, which
37:46
Speaker 1: is not a feeling I have very often. A few
37:47
Speaker 1: weeks ago and I called my therapist to do like
37:52
Speaker 1: a quote unquote emergency session. She walked me through this exercise.
37:56
Speaker 1: I'd never done this before, and I closed my eyes
37:59
Speaker 1: and she asked me a few questions, and she said,
38:01
Speaker 1: whose voice is in your head? And it was my
38:05
Speaker 1: dad's voice, And it was basically The idea was that
38:08
Speaker 1: like I'm not allowed to feel pain or weakness, like
38:11
Speaker 1: we are strong, and I was experiencing shame and that
38:15
Speaker 1: was the reaction. It wasn't anger, it wasn't all these
38:17
Speaker 1: other things, and it was just it kind of like
38:20
Speaker 1: blew the lid off for me because I realized, like, oh,
38:23
Speaker 1: this is the shame is the underlying thing for all
38:26
Speaker 1: of it, like all the wounding, all the anything you're feeling,
38:30
Speaker 1: like the thing below it is usually shame and it's
38:33
Speaker 1: somebody's voice.
38:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, and it's I think when we start healing
38:40
Speaker 2: those wounds and doing work around it, what happens is
38:44
Speaker 2: that the shame can start to dissipate, yes, and maturity
38:49
Speaker 2: starts to build.
38:51
Speaker 1: Yeah.
38:51
Speaker 2: And so when someone now tells me that I have
38:55
Speaker 2: hurt them or they didn't like something that I did,
38:58
Speaker 2: when my husband does that, I don't have to go
39:03
Speaker 2: into a state of self protection, just.
39:06
Speaker 1: Like sit with the discomfort.
39:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like, oh, okay, yeah, I'm sorry, I didn't
39:13
Speaker 2: you know, like I hear you. I get it. I
39:15
Speaker 2: it's the availability to understanding the person the door. The
39:21
Speaker 2: door opens, it's like the sea really parts because I
39:26
Speaker 2: don't have to protect myself anymore.
39:30
Speaker 1: You write that a major red flag is when someone
39:32
Speaker 1: consistently overreacts and blows things out of proportion. Why is
39:35
Speaker 1: that a red flag?
39:38
Speaker 2: By a red flag? Just something that arrow that points
39:41
Speaker 2: to the wounding, Because the big reaction is letting us
39:46
Speaker 2: know that something historical is present. Yeah, always, something historical
39:50
Speaker 2: is there. You know. It's like, and the big reaction
39:54
Speaker 2: might be appropriate for that moment. Somebody might have crossed
39:58
Speaker 2: a really significant boundar three of yours. There might be
40:02
Speaker 2: something that is really threatening about this moment. So it's
40:04
Speaker 2: not to say don't have the reaction. Yeah, whatever is
40:07
Speaker 2: there is there, but let that be an arrow for curiosity. Yeah,
40:12
Speaker 2: don't just leave it there.
40:15
Speaker 1: One of the things I love from your work is
40:17
Speaker 1: your feedback framework. And you say, healthy couples ask questions
40:20
Speaker 1: that most couples avoid. Do you know them off the
40:23
Speaker 1: top of your head?
40:24
Speaker 2: Oh, gosh, I have you there.
40:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd love for you to say these. Oh yeah,
40:31
Speaker 1: there's such good questions and there's things there we forget
40:34
Speaker 1: to ask them.
40:36
Speaker 2: What's something you've been telling me is important to you
40:39
Speaker 2: that I keep missing or overlooking?
40:42
Speaker 1: Yeah?
40:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, these are so important. What's something you need from
40:47
Speaker 2: me that I struggle to give. What's something you feel
40:51
Speaker 2: I haven't fully accepted about you? Why is it so
40:55
Speaker 2: hard to give? Oh, that's a that's a you question, right?
40:59
Speaker 2: The last one, how do we get better at giving
41:02
Speaker 2: and receiving? In what way? The last one in what
41:04
Speaker 2: ways can I love you better? In what ways can
41:07
Speaker 2: I love you better? And look, of course these questions
41:09
Speaker 2: need to go both ways. A lot of times you
41:11
Speaker 2: have one partner who's asking these questions or thinking about
41:14
Speaker 2: these things and the other person isn't. But for beautiful,
41:17
Speaker 2: thriving relationships, when you have both people asking these questions
41:22
Speaker 2: and really being willing to receive the feedback like that,
41:26
Speaker 2: the feedback isn't the thing again that you're like, oh,
41:29
Speaker 2: self protection? Oh the way something I keep missing that
41:32
Speaker 2: you're telling me as important? Is this, Like, oh, I
41:35
Speaker 2: want to be able to talk about my relationship with
41:37
Speaker 2: my parents, and you're like, but I don't want to
41:39
Speaker 2: hear about your parents. That's not going to go very far, right,
41:43
Speaker 2: it's being able to receive. We can ask questions all
41:47
Speaker 2: we want, We can ask them left right center. If
41:52
Speaker 2: you don't have the capacity to receive the answer, the
41:56
Speaker 2: needle will not move, you know, well said, and so
42:00
Speaker 2: you have to do your own individual work. Yeah, so
42:04
Speaker 2: that whatever the feedback is is not something that you
42:08
Speaker 2: have to disconnect from in some way that you can
42:12
Speaker 2: stay present with what that feedback is. That is the
42:14
Speaker 2: thing that helps relationships thrive and helps you thrive as
42:17
Speaker 2: a human.
42:18
Speaker 1: I want to talk to you about some reality shows
42:21
Speaker 1: because I think one of the reasons we love what
42:24
Speaker 1: reality TV, particularly dating shows, is we see so many
42:27
Speaker 1: of our romantic patterns play out in real time. So
42:31
Speaker 1: love is Blind and Love Island are the two big
42:34
Speaker 1: ones right now, And it seems like one person's ready
42:37
Speaker 1: for a real partnership and the other is still operating
42:39
Speaker 1: from a place of insecurity, avoidance ego, maybe a wound.
42:43
Speaker 1: Why do you think that scenario in particular, where one
42:46
Speaker 1: person is ready and one person is not continues to
42:49
Speaker 1: play out on screen.
42:50
Speaker 2: Well, I do think you're right that it's we're seeing
42:52
Speaker 2: the mirror of our own lives and our own experiences.
42:55
Speaker 2: But here's the thing. If you're actually ready then and
42:59
Speaker 2: you find only realize what I was saying before, that
43:02
Speaker 2: the other person isn't, then your readiness has to meet
43:06
Speaker 2: that moment, which says, then we're not the right match,
43:08
Speaker 2: and I'm not going to keep trying and trying and
43:10
Speaker 2: trying and trying and trying and trying at the cost
43:13
Speaker 2: and expense of myself, right, And so it's the I
43:16
Speaker 2: know better, I know what I ought to do. I'm ready,
43:21
Speaker 2: but you're not ready until your readiness can meet that
43:24
Speaker 2: moment and you can pivot towards what is aligned for you,
43:32
Speaker 2: like the extension of what you're healing is saying, if
43:34
Speaker 2: that makes sense.
43:35
Speaker 1: Do you watch any of these shows?
43:36
Speaker 2: I have? We don't know that I'm current, but I
43:39
Speaker 2: have watched.
43:41
Speaker 1: Both, which makes you I roll the most.
43:43
Speaker 2: I love them? You do, I do? I love them.
43:46
Speaker 2: I appreciate watching those shows and anything relational I think
43:55
Speaker 2: is interesting to me. Now some of it is, you know,
43:58
Speaker 2: sometimes you're cheering for someone, sometimes you're cringing on the
44:01
Speaker 2: photo sofa and you can see it so clearly. But
44:05
Speaker 2: I appreciate people, you know, some of them. I'm sure
44:08
Speaker 2: they're doing it for different motives. But the people who.
44:12
Speaker 1: Are not for the right reasons, for reasons exactly do
44:16
Speaker 1: you think they like play out these sort of like
44:19
Speaker 1: toxic patterns or they're just reflecting current dating culture.
44:22
Speaker 2: I think it's just reflecting dating cultures. I'm sure the
44:25
Speaker 2: people who are choosing who's on, you know, they're going
44:29
Speaker 2: for that probably. Yeah, Like I wonder what the casting
44:34
Speaker 2: is like for the show. We have friends of mine
44:37
Speaker 2: and I have joked about throwing myself into the ring
44:40
Speaker 2: and saying that they need a therapist on these shows
44:43
Speaker 2: to actually try to support they do.
44:46
Speaker 1: They need a therapist in the news to like take
44:50
Speaker 1: all the news on CNNA and like harness it with people,
44:55
Speaker 1: and they need a therapist on these reality.
44:57
Speaker 2: Shows, you know who does. I've been on to Black
45:00
Speaker 2: Girls in a Rose and they do a lot of
45:04
Speaker 2: therapists on the show to break down what's going on,
45:07
Speaker 2: and I love their material.
45:10
Speaker 1: What would you say to parents who want to model
45:11
Speaker 1: healthy relationships for their kids in their house.
45:14
Speaker 2: Keep doing your own work. You're not going to be perfect. Ever,
45:18
Speaker 2: obviously we've heard that so many times before. A lot
45:21
Speaker 2: of times parents especially now are saying, you know, I
45:24
Speaker 2: don't want to pass this pain or I don't want
45:27
Speaker 2: to screw up my kids, and you know, most people
45:29
Speaker 2: will say, well, you will screw up your kids, and
45:31
Speaker 2: there's no way to avoid that. But I think it's
45:33
Speaker 2: about getting to that place where you continue to do
45:36
Speaker 2: your own work, You continue to do your own excavation.
45:39
Speaker 2: You are mature enough as a parent to be able
45:42
Speaker 2: to receive their feedback. You're able to see your humanness
45:46
Speaker 2: and your and hold the compassion and grace and accountability, ownership, responsibility.
45:52
Speaker 2: You're willing to apologize that, You're willing to do all
45:55
Speaker 2: of those things to be relational with them. Those are
45:59
Speaker 2: the things that model it and then relationally partner to partner.
46:03
Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, you are their model. You are the
46:05
Speaker 2: person I always say to people of the clients of
46:07
Speaker 2: mine who have children, like, your kids are going to
46:11
Speaker 2: be on some therapist's sofa twenty five years from twenty
46:15
Speaker 2: years from now, thirty years from now. What do you
46:18
Speaker 2: want them to say about their childhood? Oh? You know,
46:22
Speaker 2: what are they going to say about their childhood? And
46:25
Speaker 2: that can be a confronting question, right, that can be
46:28
Speaker 2: a really confronting question. But what needs to shift in
46:32
Speaker 2: order for what you want them to say to be
46:35
Speaker 2: what they say?
46:36
Speaker 1: That's a great question. What needs to shift? That's very cool.
46:40
Speaker 1: So the article says we will marry the wrong person.
46:42
Speaker 1: I feel like listening to you. That's not true. We
46:46
Speaker 1: meet people who hopefully help us pay attention to and
46:51
Speaker 1: heal our wounds.
46:53
Speaker 2: That's right, And it doesn't always happen that way. You know,
46:56
Speaker 2: a lot of times we are in partnership where we're
46:59
Speaker 2: not doing doing any work, and so it probably does
47:01
Speaker 2: feel quote unquote wrong. But I think that relationships, you know,
47:06
Speaker 2: we've heard this before. Partnership and children our greatest teachers,
47:10
Speaker 2: our greatest mirrors, And if you have people who are
47:14
Speaker 2: willing to roll up their sleeves, then something really beautiful
47:18
Speaker 2: can happen from that space. Yeah, if you're with somebody
47:20
Speaker 2: long enough, you know, life is hard. There are a
47:24
Speaker 2: lot of challenges. It's not a walk in the park.
47:26
Speaker 2: It's not it's not that honeymoon phase for a very
47:29
Speaker 2: long time. Different chapters of life will have you face
47:32
Speaker 2: lots of different things. And as I said before, choosing
47:36
Speaker 2: someone who you're willing to go through the hard with,
47:39
Speaker 2: I think is one of the great indicators for good
47:44
Speaker 2: success in a relationship.
47:46
Speaker 1: And choosing someone you're willing to go through hard.
47:48
Speaker 2: With the good, the easy, the fun, the light, the
47:52
Speaker 2: traveling together, all of that. Of course, I wish that
47:54
Speaker 2: upon everyone. I hope that you have fun with the
47:56
Speaker 2: person you choose. I want you, guys to belly laugh.
47:59
Speaker 2: I want you to enjoy traveling together. I want you
48:01
Speaker 2: to light each other up. I want you to support
48:04
Speaker 2: each other's dreams. Great. You are going to face hardship
48:09
Speaker 2: and you need to be able to go through the
48:12
Speaker 2: heart together and come out the other side. One of
48:14
Speaker 2: my favorite definitions of secure healthy relationship is from a colleague,
48:18
Speaker 2: Douy Freeman, and he says, secure healthy partnership is about
48:21
Speaker 2: going through hard times, remaining in contact, and coming out
48:25
Speaker 2: the other side.
48:26
Speaker 1: Okay, what is one question that every listener should ask
48:30
Speaker 1: themselves tonight about the family that they came from and
48:33
Speaker 1: the love they're trying to build.
48:37
Speaker 2: I'm not even going to preface it. What did you
48:40
Speaker 2: need most in your childhood that you didn't get? Wow,
48:46
Speaker 2: and let yourself rattle around with it and do your
48:49
Speaker 2: best not.
48:50
Speaker 1: To say it's a good one.
48:52
Speaker 2: It was great, it was amazing. I didn't need they
48:54
Speaker 2: did so well. Just name it. What did you need
48:58
Speaker 2: most that you didn't get? No explanation, no caveat, no nothing.
49:04
Speaker 2: Just say a sentence, put a period at the end,
49:07
Speaker 2: and then sit with it and pause with it, and
49:09
Speaker 2: notice the sensations in your body as I see in yours,
49:13
Speaker 2: and just notice what happens there. Be willing if you
49:17
Speaker 2: have it, you know, and look. Some people might not
49:19
Speaker 2: be ready to answer that question. Part of this is
49:21
Speaker 2: about capacity. Part of this is about being able to
49:24
Speaker 2: tolerate whatever the answer is right that like, I can
49:27
Speaker 2: actually sit with the answer.
49:30
Speaker 1: Yeah.
49:30
Speaker 2: But if you answer that question honestly, if you get
49:34
Speaker 2: to a point where you can answer that question, obviously
49:36
Speaker 2: it's going to honestly, it is going to point you
49:41
Speaker 2: to some really beautiful work, you will see that answer
49:44
Speaker 2: showing up in your relationships present day.
50:00
Speaker 1: Should you marry the best sex of your life? No?
50:05
Speaker 1: A celebrity couple most likely to make it Timothy shallow
50:09
Speaker 1: May and Kylie are Travis and Courtney.
50:13
Speaker 2: Oh my god, you're like, I don't care. I don't
50:15
Speaker 2: care to make it. I'm gonna go Kylie and Timothy.
50:21
Speaker 2: If I had to choose one.
50:23
Speaker 1: Spinning the block aka revisiting a relationship, is it wise
50:26
Speaker 1: or a waste of time?
50:27
Speaker 2: Usually a waste of time. The second chances are just patterns.
50:34
Speaker 2: If there's been no growth in healing.
50:37
Speaker 1: That's a word Okay, what do the healthiest couples understand
50:41
Speaker 1: that everybody else misses.
50:44
Speaker 2: Gratitude appreciation constantly? I know, it seems basic. We forget
50:48
Speaker 2: about it, gratitude appreciation, acknowledgment, having the conversations, not letting
50:53
Speaker 2: things go on and on and on when you're upset
50:55
Speaker 2: about them, name it. There's something called the low negativity
50:59
Speaker 2: threshold in couples research. Gotman's research about how the healthiest
51:05
Speaker 2: couples they have a low negativity threshold. It means that
51:08
Speaker 2: the amount of negativity that rises within the relationship is
51:11
Speaker 2: before they say something about it is low and not high.
51:15
Speaker 2: The healthiest couples have a low one. So we don't
51:18
Speaker 2: just put kick it down the curb. We don't just
51:21
Speaker 2: brush it off our shoulder. When something upsets you, it
51:23
Speaker 2: bothers you. You're upset by something, you say it, you
51:26
Speaker 2: name it, you squash it, you move on from it,
51:28
Speaker 2: so that you're not harboring things, so that resentment is
51:30
Speaker 2: not building and growing.
51:33
Speaker 1: Okay, last ones. Female proposals bolder backwards?
51:38
Speaker 2: I mean, do you? But I'd want to know what
51:41
Speaker 2: the reason is behind it, Like what's yeah, what's driving this?
51:47
Speaker 2: Because sometimes you know, is it performative. Is it coming
51:52
Speaker 2: from a like? What is driving it? It feels important
51:55
Speaker 2: to answer.
51:56
Speaker 1: That's a good question. What's something every woman should try
51:59
Speaker 1: once whatever first comes to your mind?
52:05
Speaker 2: What is something going for their dreams?
52:11
Speaker 1: A book you read that changed your life, something you
52:13
Speaker 1: think everybody should read?
52:16
Speaker 2: Awareness.
52:17
Speaker 1: I've never heard of it. It's a great book, Okay.
52:19
Speaker 2: And I will revisit it over and over and over again. Yeah.
52:23
Speaker 1: And the question everything question from the card game that
52:26
Speaker 1: I pulled was what is something about you that sounds
52:30
Speaker 1: made up but is one hundred percent true?
52:33
Speaker 2: Oh? I played the violin at Whinney Houston's wedding.
52:37
Speaker 1: I'm sorry at her wedding to Bobby.
52:41
Speaker 2: Brown not made up? I know it's a good one.
52:45
Speaker 1: That's a really good one.
52:47
Speaker 2: It's a good one.
52:47
Speaker 1: Like if you said that during True Truths and a Lie,
52:49
Speaker 1: I think you for sure made that up.
52:51
Speaker 2: That I so out there right?
52:53
Speaker 1: Was it a good wedding?
52:55
Speaker 2: Yeah? I was so young, but it was a very
52:58
Speaker 2: beautiful wedding for the part so that I got to be.
53:01
Speaker 1: Therefore, Vienna, You're amazing, Thank you.
53:04
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.
53:11
Speaker 1: Okay, you know what time it is. Today's a good
53:14
Speaker 1: day to have a good day. I'll see you next week.