Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Robert Valentine about his choice of The Gunfighters (3/4)

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Talks to Robert Valentine about his choice of The Gunfighters (3/4) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

0:22
None. Hamster with a blunt.
0:34
Pen Knife for doing quicker, quicker, quicker.
0:42
There's received fan wisdom. There's opinions galore.
0:47
Will Rob and Joe avoid them no less?
0:50
Hear their view? No, this doesn't work at all.
0:53
Sigh, heart, you've let me down. Welcome back to Your Answer with
0:56
A Blunt Pen Knife, the Quick Draw Doctor Who commentary
1:00
podcast featuring dreadful singing but a fabulous guest.
1:05
Hello Robert Valentine. How are you doing?
1:07
Do you prefer Robert or Rob? Rob, Rob, if I'm if I'm Robert,
1:11
I feel like I'm in trouble. OK, now you've been told off.
1:15
Yeah, a bit, yeah. My name is Joe, but my mum was
1:20
not above calling me Josephine if I was in trouble.
1:23
Bye. Noted.
1:25
OK, let's see how this goes. Or, oy, fuck wit.
1:30
You got to remember, I'm from Crawley.
1:32
All right, Episode three of The Gunfighters, Rob.
1:38
This is where Johnny Ringo joins the story.
1:40
Yes, yes. Yeah.
1:42
Much needed. So much.
1:47
It's absolutely right. Episode 3.
1:49
Suddenly we get a brand new except it's the second-half.
1:52
You need that kind of fresh energy from somewhere and having
1:56
a proper merciless Black Hat coming to your story at this
2:00
point is it's a really great bit of of AG up for the thing and he
2:06
and he brings some proper he brings death in his wake, which
2:11
is I. Think I think when I first
2:13
watched this, the character that appealed to me the most was
2:16
Charlie the Barman, because he was just a bit silly and a bit
2:19
fun. You know, the the scene where he
2:22
gets shot dead. I was appalled.
2:24
Yeah, yeah, it's it's considering the the, the tone
2:28
that is established in this story, it's like, oh, Oh no,
2:31
hang on. There are stakes all of a sudden
2:34
there are stakes here. It's good.
2:35
It's. Good.
2:36
And then instantly the song hits.
2:37
And I remember when I was watching it that I was like,
2:39
hang on, is this funny or is this scary?
2:43
I'm not sure what's going on. Here.
2:44
And I think that's kind of, you know, kind of, but that's kind
2:50
of what the song should be doing is, you know, here's what we
2:54
remember is the song. But what happened is all this
2:58
just dank murder and criminality and and brutality, because that
3:03
was the Old West. It wasn't.
3:05
It wasn't white hats and black hats and shiny silver as
3:10
revolvers glinting in the sun, which is what Stephen and Dodo
3:14
expect when And that's and that's what they're dressed for.
3:18
And they're dressed with the the idea of the Old West.
3:21
Yeah, yeah. And what I really love about
3:24
that saying we'll get there in a minute, is the second he says,
3:28
oh, you're Johnny Ringo, Charlie the moment he's dead.
3:33
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
3:35
And also Johnny Ringo walks away as well and then just turns
3:40
around and goes Charlie like he really.
3:43
Oh yeah, it's, it's it's great. It's great.
3:46
It's proper, proper cold, proper cold stuff.
3:49
And also he becomes the centre of evil essentially.
3:55
You know, for for want of a better term, it's, it's, it's a
3:57
simplistic way of putting it, but it's what the story needs at
4:00
this point. So episode 3 isn't padding.
4:04
Episode 3 is where we get, you know, death in a black cat
4:09
turning up, which is great. I think pretty much there's a
4:15
there's comedy line still, things like that.
4:17
The tone gets more serious as we head towards episode 4 And then
4:22
four. Almost entirely serious.
4:24
Yeah, which is right and proper. Which is why I kind of think
4:27
just a little bit more grit in the first step.
4:29
A couple of episodes. And by all I'm all I'd be asking
4:33
for is just, you know, more of a cliffhanger at the end of
4:36
episode one. You know for example, the doc,
4:39
the Doctor walks into the saloon.
4:40
Someone turns and fires. He misses him, but you know, or
4:45
whatever. Or even just someone turns and
4:47
points their gun. That's that would that would be
4:49
enough. That would be enough.
4:50
And ends of Episode 2. Because we'll notice when we get
4:53
to the beginning of Episode 3, the begin.
4:56
There's more menace in the cliffhanger reprise than there
5:01
is in the. Cliffhanger.
5:02
He strung up, isn't he? I think you see it.
5:04
Yeah, we get a reaction. We also we yeah, we get a
5:07
necessary reaction. Shot of Stephen in In Peril.
5:10
That's missing from the cliffhanger of Episode 2, and I
5:13
think if we just had those two cliffhangers doing more of a job
5:17
of giving us a bit more menace, the whole thing would feel more
5:22
balanced because we'd have been prepared for how dark it
5:25
suddenly gets and becomes. Maybe like I said, this was a
5:29
point where Doctor Who was made sequentially rather than, you
5:32
know, all the scenes for that set.
5:34
But it became later on, maybe I maybe as they were making this,
5:39
they they they started getting the tone right as they went
5:43
along. It was done lots of one episode
5:44
a week wasn't. It oh, yeah, yeah.
5:45
But also, you know, I'm not right about any of my opinions.
5:48
It's just what I happen to think.
5:49
But you know, they they they they achieved what they
5:52
achieved. And someone else, you know, or
5:56
even me on another day might have a different response to it.
5:59
But right now, I just kind of think that, yeah, those would be
6:03
the bits I'd fine tune if I if I was, if I had to.
6:08
Well, that's entered into episode 3.
6:10
And we on you count as in I'm doing all the intros you do
6:15
double the counting. Oh. 54321.
6:24
Try and catch me out all right. No, no, I just I just forgot.
6:26
I just forgot how to count backwards for something.
6:30
Oh, it hasn't started. I didn't press it.
6:31
That's why. Sorry for anyone who has press
6:33
play. I don't know.
6:34
Anyone does? Suckers.
6:36
You're 5 seconds out. Sorry.
6:39
Never mind, never mind. So we've got Dodo and Doc
6:44
Holiday and Kate in Dodge City, is that right?
6:47
If memories yeah, we're told this we we they're in a room we
6:51
just have. Place Dodge City.
6:52
Yes, yeah, yeah, none of them said, Oh yeah, it was called
6:55
Tombstone because the guy who kind of developed the mind there
7:02
said, you know, all all, all that I'll find here is my
7:05
Tombstone or something like that.
7:07
And then he, he jokingly named the place Tombs.
7:09
Anyway, we have the cliffhanger at Reprise here and you'll
7:12
notice that we get yeah, if he ain't out in 2 minutes, his
7:17
friend Regret here is going to swing in his place as we get
7:22
some nice fearful reaction shots here from Burp and the doctor.
7:30
Just love his. I'm sorry.
7:35
He's just. Worried that How the fuck am I
7:37
going to get out? Yes, yeah, but all this stuff is
7:42
great. The lighting is great.
7:45
You know, the kind of the night time lighting.
7:49
Even got like, I mean, that's clearly a painted, but I don't
7:51
know what's going on there, but it looks like there's lights in
7:53
the windows, you know? Yeah, yeah, it's all good.
7:56
It's all good stuff. Rex Tucker.
7:58
By all accounts, I think Rex Tucker was going to be brought
8:01
into an unemploydly child originally, OK, it was given to
8:04
Warren Hussein because he was a bit of a technical whiz and I
8:10
don't think he wanted to direct Doctor Who and he certainly
8:13
didn't want to direct this when he was handed it.
8:17
He's like, well, I'm going to do the best, absolute best I can
8:20
with this and. It does look great and I also, I
8:23
just, I just find it's a bit of a wheeze how at home the Doctor
8:27
looks in his cloak because you know, he is a Victorian.
8:31
This is the 1880s, you know. Yeah, I I know what you mean.
8:38
Like immediately this just feel a bit more dangerous.
8:42
Yeah, yeah. And I think if we've just been
8:43
primed for where this was going to go just by just a little bit
8:47
more danger early on. Not much, just a tiny little bit
8:51
of it. You know, the climax.
8:55
I I can't think of another Doctor Who story that I can
8:59
think it's Doctor Who stories, Emily.
9:00
Explosions. And there's a big distance from,
9:03
you know, with an audience with an explosion because, yeah, you
9:06
know, people might die, but we aren't seeing none of that.
9:08
We are watching people being mowed down in cold blood and
9:13
it's vicious. Yes, yeah, yeah.
9:15
And this is, this is proper. Yeah.
9:22
He is trussed up ready to swing. He's.
9:25
Got a fucking rope around his neck.
9:27
Yeah. Oh, OK, here we go.
9:33
They've just gone. But it was there for a second.
9:39
It. Was sort of brandishing, so it
9:41
feels like this might not end well, you know?
9:42
Yeah, I think the Clantons, they're a little bit rather some
9:46
of them just in just in a, you know, they're not the most
9:50
imposing bunch, all of them. I think this one here, the one
9:54
in the middle, Yeah, a bit of scruff.
9:56
He's probably the best his. Accent.
9:59
His accent's shocking, but he looks the part, yeah.
10:03
Where is this one here? Which one is the one on the
10:05
right? Is that?
10:06
Yeah, exactly. It's kind of like that's kind of
10:08
what I was going for. But I must admit, yeah, like I
10:11
said, I'm, I'm, I'm trying to listen past the accents and just
10:16
forget about them for the moment.
10:17
And. What accent you've got to listen
10:19
to now? And that's mine.
10:20
Well, exactly. That's that's fine.
10:22
That's God bless. You Charlie is a bit of a gossip
10:30
in it. It's kind of a yeah, it's kind
10:33
of his his role in life. I mean he looked yeah, it's it's
10:38
it's a great little. It's a great little role do.
10:47
You know that you'd have told me that was Kerensky.
10:49
I thought I'd rather believed you.
10:53
Well, yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly.
10:59
So we're we've gone quiet because we're we're busy
11:02
reading. You'll watch it well there
11:03
there. Feels like there's a bit of a
11:04
plot Co hearing now. It's a plot exactly.
11:07
The the the, the story is kind of clicking in here rather than
11:10
kind of, you know, the the comedy set pieces and the the
11:14
misunderstandings. We're actually getting into the
11:17
build up. Do you know, it's almost like
11:20
this is almost like episode one here because kind of everything
11:23
now is leading up to the OK Corral, isn't it?
11:27
Yeah, every decision, Yeah. Yeah, it's just, yeah, it's it's
11:33
just a little bit odd that they they they don't know it's
11:39
coming. Am I right?
11:41
I'm not wrong in that, am I they?
11:42
Don't I know. I know what you're saying.
11:45
There is a bit between Dodo and the Doctor where they're just
11:48
sitting around the table at dawn, and the Doctor's like,
11:53
it's Doctor Who. He's not instrumental in the
11:55
climax in any way, shape or form.
11:57
He is just sitting around waiting for the climax to
12:00
happen. And you know, we've kind of done
12:05
this, haven't we? We've done big historical events
12:07
where? Yeah.
12:09
It's a tricky 1 because what what can he do?
12:12
Can he can either try and stop it or he can try and make sure
12:15
it happens or he can be not involved with it.
12:19
He did. Just say to work.
12:21
They just said we're not going to see the outcome of this
12:23
because tomorrow morning we're leaving.
12:26
Yeah, maybe that's the closest it comes to him.
12:29
Yes, yeah, yeah. Oh, he's Parkland, I think,
12:35
Yeah, Parkland is he's, he's the well because he because he's
12:40
American. He's he's the only one who
12:42
doesn't hurt my ears. And he, I I can actually engage
12:46
100% with what he's doing. So he's my favorite.
12:49
And it is nice to have a character come in and say, you
12:51
know what, you're a useless bunch.
12:53
I'm going to hire someone else in because you're so useless
12:56
because that's what we're all thinking all along.
12:57
You know, if they were Cowboys worth their salt, well, they
13:00
would have shot the doctor by now.
13:01
They would have found Doc Holiday.
13:04
Yeah. I think the all this stuff is,
13:06
this is all in this is all invention as far as I'm aware.
13:11
We're yeah, yeah. It's it's not really how it went
13:17
down or what it was about. And it would have.
13:19
It would have been nice if, as well as being a like, fun,
13:23
frothy but exciting entertaining adventure, we'd actually
13:30
actually had an educational, informative.
13:33
What was it about? To it it was it was essentially
13:40
it was about the it's about power in many ways over
13:45
Tombstone. I think Ike Clanton if memory
13:49
server. I think Ike Clanton had actually
13:50
been some something of an informer for wire turf at some
13:55
point I believe and was kind of I think I could I could be wrong
14:01
about this or misremembering. But I think he was kind of
14:02
concerned that his participant him being kind of a narc might
14:07
have come to light and I think that's kind of how it partly
14:10
came to your head also because right listen why Terp wasn't the
14:14
sheriff or the no the Marshall. I think that was his brother his
14:18
older brother Virgil and he got roped in and it basically I
14:21
think it was it was a confrontation to to get the
14:27
Clantons to give up their weapons.
14:30
It wasn't actually at the OK Corral, it was a little bit
14:33
further down the road at outside of Photographers Shop
14:37
establishment and it was and the whole thing.
14:40
Behind the murder in this all the people that got killed.
14:43
No, not well, no. Do you want it?
14:45
No. Well, we'll get to it.
14:46
But no, there's there's one person who dies during the
14:49
exchange who was who did not die, who was not present for it.
14:55
I've said this before, I want these people, you know, that
14:57
relies on Doctor for a bit of a bit of history.
15:01
Yeah, I think. I think the thing if you can
15:02
just accept the fact that all historical fiction is inaccurate
15:05
by virtue of having to be fiction.
15:08
But if you can just get the broad brush strokes in there so
15:11
people can you can have, you know you can get a potted
15:13
history, then I think that's sometimes the best you can ask
15:17
for. I mean and that's whether you're
15:20
you're, you know, I don't know, Maid Marin and a Merry Men or
15:27
you know, you know, bring up the bodies or something.
15:31
You know, it's, you know, you can have like proper, serious,
15:33
highly researched historical fiction that it does.
15:36
It does a job of, you know, presenting kind of serious
15:40
minded theses about a period and something or you can just be
15:43
like bollocky froth. But if you can just kind of, you
15:46
know, just get the headlines, it helps.
15:49
Yeah. Well, to be fit, we just saw
15:51
that marvelous scene a second ago where the doctor said
15:54
nonsense. My dear boy, Doctor Holiday is a
15:56
great friend of mine. He took out my tooth.
15:58
He gave me a gun. What more do you want?
15:59
Good gracious me. Yeah, he he is a riot in this.
16:03
He is an absolute riot. Oh, do you know what is this?
16:07
Oh, yeah, Johnny. Yeah, it's is this is this
16:12
Johnny's entrance? Yeah, I think it is, yeah.
16:17
He's a bit like a cat, isn't he? Sort of stalking his way.
16:21
Yeah. And I like that because he is,
16:24
he is the he's the deadly gun in this.
16:27
And you know this is the, this is the the Did you know of the
16:32
episode? But did you know who was
16:34
originally going to? Everyone knows, but did you know
16:36
who was going to be originally cast as Johnny Ringo if they
16:39
could get him? In this.
16:41
Yeah. No.
16:43
Patrick Trout. No, yeah.
16:46
He was. He was first choice, yeah.
16:50
Oh my God. I mean, he's a great actor.
16:52
He could, probably, could have done it.
16:53
He could. He could.
16:53
He would have been brilliant, yeah.
16:57
And that's not to dismiss Laura's pain and I know the the
17:00
accent, but he does have the danger.
17:03
He does, yeah. Yeah, and Johnny, Johnny Ringo
17:06
is death, basically. That's that's his function.
17:12
And you know, I've got to say this because I cannot believe
17:14
I'm going to say this, given it's Laura's pain who plays,
17:17
yeah, Starry and the two doctors were like.
17:19
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he's a bit hot in this,
17:22
you know. Yeah, that's where my
17:26
orientation clearly differs from yours.
17:29
Yeah, I'm. What's it?
17:32
He's got an edge about him. Oh, yes, yes.
17:36
Yeah. Yeah.
17:36
Yeah. You don't know if he's going to
17:38
shoot you or fuck you, but it's dangerous.
17:43
Oh no, I don't want to watch Charlie getting killed.
17:46
I don't like this but. But this is this is we.
17:50
We need death in the middle, and this is death in the middle.
17:53
And that means it works. If I want to turn away, I'm
17:55
upstairs. Well, I'm having an emotional
17:57
reaction to what's playing out. Yeah, yeah, this is what you
18:01
want. And also for you know in a four
18:04
parter, you know sometimes Episode 3 can be.
18:08
Of. The the the the one where it can
18:10
potentially sag I I maintain it's really does not have to be
18:14
the case, and having Johnny Rinko turn up halfway through to
18:20
bring this whole dark energy to the rest of it is great do.
18:24
You know what I think of and I only ever heard your big
18:29
finished toys that are an hour long.
18:31
Have you done 4 pars? Yeah, a few or a handful.
18:35
One of my favorite ones, actually.
18:37
Because it IA lot of stuff you do, one does kind of turns to
18:42
Ash's new mouth afterwards. But one of the ones I'm happy
18:45
with is The Devil's Tooth Prince.
18:48
It's a third Doctor story. That's a four parter.
18:51
That's a four parter. Actually, do you know what the
18:54
third part of The End of The Beginning was?
18:57
The vampire tale, wasn't it? That's right.
19:00
But that's kind of a that's a portmanteau thing rather than a
19:04
four part. It was still the third episode.
19:08
Fair enough. Fair.
19:09
Enough. It could have easily.
19:10
Oh, here we go. Oh yeah.
19:12
Boom. Look, he's pouring a drink to
19:16
the last, even when he's dead. Yeah, but yeah, Johnny Ringo
19:20
Stone Cold Psycho in this, which is just brilliant.
19:23
And then the cameras are lingering on the corpse.
19:25
Yeah, this great. It's it's it's one of them, the
19:29
memorable images from this one. Like I said, you know I've got I
19:32
went to great lengths to say I I don't pay attention to directing
19:36
a Doctor Who. But this one is it's so well
19:39
directed, yeah. Yeah, I think it had to be as
19:43
well. I think it could very easily
19:45
have showed up its limitations even more area wasn't.
19:49
Yeah, but to me, you know it makes the whole, you know the
19:52
the protestations that it has limits kind of you know, I I
19:58
don't really I don't see them I well.
20:00
I certainly think in Episode 4, you know where we go on film for
20:05
the gunfight? Yeah.
20:07
Oh, that looks terrific. I mean even this shot here we
20:11
get, you know, we get the view through the open door of the
20:15
landing and they've, you know, the the set, the set dressing
20:18
continues. We have.
20:19
We have huge depth here. I love this scene.
20:22
We're done, which is what I love about it is after she realizes
20:27
he's got the then she faints. Oh dear, she's.
20:32
I mean, she's a bit useless, but she's very funny.
20:36
I think you know one that you don't have to be competent as
20:38
long as you've you know, you're fun.
20:42
That's what I tell myself when I brush my teeth in the morning,
20:45
anyway. So there's nothing competent
20:47
about you? Oh no, I don't mean that, Lala.
20:49
You know what I mean. You're a cut above.
20:54
Oh, bless you. But yeah, no, it's yeah, it's
20:58
good this. So who Anthony Jacob's son is?
21:03
Who's I think Jacobs first of all, Anthony.
21:05
Jacob plays Doc Holiday. Then no.
21:08
My son is Matthew Jacobs, who wrote Doctor Who, the TV movie
21:12
starring Paul Mcgahn. Oh, yes, sorry, I read that
21:14
somewhere the other day. Yes, and.
21:16
And in that Who does the Doctor? Whose costume does the Doctor
21:21
steal? Wow.
21:23
Bill Hickok. Yeah.
21:25
Yeah. Oh yeah, that must be a nod.
21:27
Do you know what's really sweet is that recent documentary that
21:30
came out, Doctor Who Am I, which follows Matthew J.
21:33
Have you seen it? No, no.
21:36
I mean, I mean, as a peek into American conventions, it's
21:38
absolutely fascinating. They're all none of them have
21:41
got a filter. Don't go to an American
21:43
convention, Rob. All right?
21:44
It's terrifying. I know I've.
21:46
Been to I went to convergence a few years back.
21:49
I had a well overtime, it's great.
21:51
OK, well then don't listen to me anyway.
21:53
But they they did a screening of an episode of The Gunfires for
21:56
Matthew Jacobs to watch so he can see his dad like.
21:59
Oh, nice. Nice.
22:00
It was so touching, and it's actually really sad because
22:05
Auntie Jacob's wife committed suicide to Matthew Jacob's
22:10
mother, and after that he sort of had periods of serious
22:14
depression. But they saw that he was
22:16
apparently an actor that battled with a lot of demons.
22:21
I think a lot of them do though, you know.
22:24
Well, you know, you know, life is suffering.
22:27
A lot of us do. A lot of us do a.
22:30
Lot of us do this. Is this is a great Oh, I
22:33
wouldn't do that Stephen. Oh my.
22:36
God, have we gone past the pit yet?
22:37
Where? The Doctor.
22:38
Is dangerous. Now do.
22:39
You remember that bit? Sorry, say again.
22:41
Have we gone past the pit where the doctor leans on Charlie?
22:44
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
22:47
Stephen. Yeah.
22:49
Stephen's reaction in this is just golden as well.
22:53
But yeah, see, it's still, here's the thing, it's still
22:56
operating as comedy, a comedy of errors, despite the fact that
23:00
we're now it's now life and death do.
23:03
You know who that is, Rob? That's Johnny Ringo.
23:05
Johnny Ringo Oh what? It's.
23:09
Quite sexy. Oh, that wasn't my proper
23:12
American. That was just me.
23:13
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
23:15
That's your style of A10. We're just getting the engine
23:17
ribbon. Well, so if it's only a four
23:20
part, it was a six part, you might be in luck, but you know.
23:24
Oh, we'll never go to bed. Oh, God, stop talking.
23:31
What's happening? Oh, yeah.
23:32
It literally says you can come with me, but I'll.
23:34
You know what? If you get in my way, I'll.
23:36
I'll kill you. Yeah, Honest.
23:38
He's an honest bloke. I.
23:40
Mean this is all working pretty well, but.
23:44
You think this is a better Do you think This is why you have
23:47
less notes for this episode? That I would.
23:49
That I was just engaged by watching it.
23:51
Possibly, yeah. What do I write?
23:53
Patrick Trout. And consider Johnny Ringo.
23:56
His next extraction is going to be a bullet.
23:57
Great line. We missed that.
23:59
But that brick. This has got some fan sparkling
24:02
lines in it. Johnny Ringo shoots Charlie.
24:06
Nice. We needed some death.
24:08
A bit more death danger earlier might have helped a bit.
24:10
Mr. Werp is great throughout. I just love the the running gag
24:14
of Mr. Werp again. It's an Eric Morcombe mistake to
24:17
make, I think. Oh yeah, this episode has got
24:21
more threat and intrigue to it, and I think that's why I was I
24:24
made fewer notes because I was too busy actually engaged with
24:29
with it rather than missing bits.
24:35
And it's nice. Yeah.
24:36
We're cohere in the two sides as well now.
24:38
And we Yeah, yeah, so we've got the younger.
24:42
Oh, the young brother dies, doesn't he, at the end of the
24:44
episode? We'll discuss that as well
24:47
during the end credits, but I'm assuming.
24:50
That's not accurate then. Well.
24:51
The production done in this is wonderful.
24:53
I'll just say the the ages of the herbs.
24:57
There aren't enough herbs in town either, but the ages of the
25:01
herbs aren't quite right because.
25:03
But then again, the whole thing swings on, the Doctor and Doc
25:08
Holiday getting muddled up so they've turned Doc Holiday from
25:12
a 30 year old with TB to someone who's about 60.
25:18
But but yeah, seriously, check out Tombstone because I think I
25:23
think you'll enjoy. I think you'll enjoy it just for
25:25
Val Kilmer and Michael Bean staring each other a lot.
25:28
Well, I want to check. My interest is Pete, but I'll
25:32
check out Deadwood as well because I remember seeing.
25:35
Oh yeah, yeah. That looked visually very
25:38
stimulating. Oh, it was incredible.
25:39
And also it finished after its third season on a cliffhanger
25:44
essentially then just ended. But in 2019 they did it, they
25:49
they rounded it off with a 2 hour TV movie.
25:51
So now, yeah, so now you've got a pretty darn decent totality.
25:56
But yeah, it's stars Ian McShane as Al Swearengen who runs the
26:00
town. He's the the proprietor and
26:01
owner of the Gen. Saloon and yeah, it's in it,
26:06
yes. Really.
26:08
Yes. Yeah, it's it's his.
26:11
It's his greatest role. What was the gap between Series
26:15
3 and that two hour finale then? Starting 2005 six 710 years of
26:22
10 year gap. So was that fans clamoring or
26:26
just? Yeah, yeah, we, yeah, we we were
26:28
all we were. We were suffering in silence.
26:30
But. Hey, we there, like you were at
26:32
the front with the placard. Oh yeah, yeah.
26:33
No, yeah, yeah, of course they listened to me and they they
26:37
David Milch, the guy who he he he, I think he, I think he's got
26:40
Alzheimer's. But he he he managed to get dead
26:45
with the movie done. Did they round it off well?
26:49
Pretty well, yeah. It's yeah, it was.
26:51
I think it was good and ending as they could.
26:53
But really it's one of the things that really you kind of
26:54
think I will, if only they managed to do season four and
26:57
season 5 and maybe season 6 and kind of, you know, Yeah.
27:02
The interesting thing is because he plays Al Swearengen, who runs
27:05
this camp with an iron fist. But as the town becomes more
27:08
civilized and the civilization catches up, he's he's a man
27:12
who's wise and enough to recognize that the more
27:16
civilized society gets, there's there's less of a place for him
27:21
in it. So it's yeah, it's just a
27:24
brilliant piece. He's got Calamity Jane and Wild
27:27
Bill Hickok and Seth Bullock. He plays a guy called Al
27:30
Swearinge and another historical figure who did exist there.
27:34
Of course, there are necessary fictional characters, but the
27:37
the big bad guy is George Hearst, who was father of
27:41
William Randolph Hearst. So yeah, but it's a story about
27:45
America. And yeah, I'm.
27:48
Really interested to watch something where there's some
27:50
detail you know. Oh yeah, yeah.
27:52
And there is, there is. But yeah, yeah, I'm, I'm a big
27:55
Western fan. Like I said, not to be honest,
27:58
not the type of Western that the gunfighters is aping, but
28:03
everything from, you know, the the spaghetti westerns onwards.
28:08
Really. I just yeah, revisionist
28:11
westerns basically is what they tend to call them.
28:13
But it's seen here between Ringo and Kate.
28:16
Yeah, I'm not sure what it brings to the plot.
28:19
I really like the scene though, and again, it had an element of
28:23
danger about it. Yeah, and kind of sexy menace
28:29
too. Yeah.
28:30
Yeah. She's still clearly very
28:32
attracted to him. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
28:33
Yeah. And that's.
28:35
A bit scared of him as well. Yeah, but that's, you know,
28:38
that's the that's the secret of sexy really, isn't it?
28:41
You know. Too Right.
28:46
OK, come on. Because he's he's going to get
28:47
killed in a second. So what's what's the IT?
28:51
Or it could be a problem. It could be praise.
28:54
Yeah, Warren Up, who's about to die, died in 19109 years after
29:01
the gunfight of the OK Corral. He was, and also Warren Up was
29:06
not in town. He was.
29:08
He was the he was the one brother who wasn't there.
29:11
I think there were four of them. I think that's.
29:14
Bizarrely, historically inaccurate, isn't it like?
29:17
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So I kind of, if they just, I'm
29:20
not, I'm not an advocate for saying this story should have,
29:23
you know it should have followed every detail of what went down.
29:26
I think just get the headlines right.
29:28
Just the, you know, just the big headlines even.
29:32
But then at least, you know, in the in the Romans DVD, there's a
29:35
documentary on that where there's a historian talking
29:39
about the story. Yeah.
29:40
And you know, that's as romanticized and as made-up as
29:45
this is just with all like the the obvious visual things there.
29:52
No. No.
29:53
Actually, just to on the on the subject, just to plug another
29:57
project, I've got a sitcom, a Roman sitcom called Cry Havoc.
30:04
Asked questions later, coming out soon.
30:06
I wrote a few episodes, the 2 1/2.
30:08
Yeah, two or three episodes of the David K Barnes, the Rusty
30:11
Quill Productions and that's set during the period of the
30:14
Triumvirate in Rome. So it's about Gaius Augustus,
30:21
Marc Anthony and Leopardus, the three guys who ran Rome after
30:26
the assassination of Julius Caesar.
30:28
And it's a silly sitcom, but we had a historical advisor on it.
30:32
So it's a thing where you have loads of leeway to tell fun,
30:37
funny stories, but if you can do it within a framework of general
30:42
accuracy, I think that's always a strength.
30:45
And I only, I only mention it because I kind of think this
30:49
could have been just fractionally more historically
30:53
accurate so that, you know, you could you could win a, you could
30:56
win a gunfight. The OK Corral quiz after
30:59
watching it, Yeah, rather than deviate from it to the extent
31:03
which this does. Like, you know, I was sitting
31:07
like thinking then oh, will I be able to watch this in the same
31:09
way again now knowing that it's you know, it's such a perverted.
31:14
Oh yeah, but I think, I think that's you watch.
31:16
You watch it as a fairy tale of the West, however, Yeah.
31:21
But I would argue that that the fairy tale of the West is what
31:24
the songs are. That's what the song is, That's
31:27
what the lyrics are. We should be watching the gritty
31:29
actuality. Which we're getting a bit more
31:32
now. We've had a cliffhanger that's
31:34
ended with a brutal murder of someone who didn't deserve to
31:37
die. So the cliffhangers are getting
31:39
better and better. That was the last cliffhanger.
31:42
But so yeah, but I think if the first cliffhanger had been, you
31:45
know, the Doctor comes into the saloon and a gun points at him,
31:47
that would have been enough of Cliffhanger 2.
31:51
We just get a shot of Stephen in peril, which is oddly missing
31:55
for considering that that's what the peril is.
31:58
I think we if we just got those two increasingly perilous
32:02
cliffhangers leading up to Cliffhanger 3 of this brutal
32:04
murder, which is great. It was sort of, yeah, holding
32:07
up. Yeah, I just think the whole
32:09
thing would sit just a little more strongly, you know,
32:13
because. I certainly think come Episode 4
32:15
and that last set piece, things feel very dangerous then, yeah.
32:19
But one thing is great is we're having a discussion about this
32:22
based on the premise that this is a darn good, fun story,
32:28
rather than some terrible piece of crap direct from the 60s that
32:33
will come down at the bottom of any any list of good Doctor Who
32:36
stories. Yeah, that's not that, just
32:38
simply isn't the case. It's good.
32:40
Pay close attention to those polls you know that are coming
32:43
out of Doctor Who magazine at the moment.
32:44
This is actually it's it's. It's still in the bottom half,
32:47
but it's rising. Yeah, yeah, it's good.
32:50
But you know, again, I think there's there is also a danger
32:53
of kind of overt positivity where you can swing too far the
32:56
other way. And you know, which I think is
32:58
always more of a reaction to the negative rather than a.
33:01
You've listened to hamster Blunt Penlife, have you?
33:03
Well, thank you very much. Overt positivity.
33:08
All right, Well, you know why. Why have me on?
33:13
Well, come on, we're at the end of three.
33:15
Yes. Oh.
33:16
I am going to hit you with some more questions.
33:19
Stephen Flanagan asks. Hello, Stephen.
33:22
Should the Doctor have stuck with Doctor Caligari as his
33:26
pseudonym of choice rather than Doctor John Smith?
33:32
No, because Doctor Caligari is too memorable.
33:37
It's fun, but like, yeah, but no.
33:40
I think Doctor Caligari is fantastic for a one off gag.
33:45
Have you read the novelisation? Because I've got a question here
33:47
about that, but if you haven't. Read of of of what?
33:50
For gunfighters? Yeah, no, no, I have not.
33:54
But ask anyway and let's see how I do.
33:56
Daniel Rosley asks how wonderful is the Donald Cotton
33:59
Novelisation? I came across it last year and
34:02
had to read it out loud to myself In a cowboy troll.
34:05
It's oh gosh, I can't remember. I think it's written in the
34:08
first person. Whose point of view?
34:14
No, hang on. Wait, that's the myth Makers and
34:16
that's Homer that's narrating that?
34:20
I tried. No, I think this is.
34:22
I think this is written in the Do you know what?
34:27
It's been a long time since I read it.
34:29
All I remember was it has some very witty pros in it.
34:32
Oh, that's I I what? I say.
34:33
I'm disappointed to hear the whole thing isn't written as the
34:38
Ballad of Last Chance Saloon. Oh.
34:41
My God. Cowards.
34:42
What? Cowards.
34:43
Yeah, an entire novel. Are you kidding?
34:46
More do it. Anyway.
34:47
Carry on, yeah. OK, what else have we got here?
34:52
Darren McKay says. Ah, that fucking ballad
34:57
absolutely kills the story. Had it been used very, very
35:01
sparingly, once or twice at most, it would have made us a
35:04
far more enjoyable watch. And it is an enjoyable watch.
35:07
Lots of fun. It's kind of what we've
35:09
concluded. Yeah, I I would.
35:12
I would disagree, but I I but I would have to explain how I
35:16
disagree. I don't think it should be used
35:19
more sparingly. I think it should be used with
35:21
more precision. I do think when maybe once, or
35:28
maybe maybe it's used once or twice too many times as as
35:34
unnecessary linking material. However, if it's used with
35:37
precision and used to, like I said, undercut what's going on
35:41
by by inaccurately reporting what's going on, then it's
35:47
actually a brilliant, brilliant extra dimension to the because
35:52
it is, it's, it's Greek chorus in some ways, but it should act,
35:55
you know, as more in a more slightly more of an ironic
35:59
fashion. But I think it's it's hugely
36:01
unique and memorable. And again, this is about the
36:03
fantasy of the Old West, and it was recorded in song, you know?
36:08
It has some integration at times as well.
36:10
It is usually really well. I can imagine anyone who who
36:12
finds it interminable, though, get into episode 2.
36:16
Like we said, when Kate starts singing it as well, that's an
36:19
episode 4 when when they're about to leave and then someone
36:23
starts singing it in the background and Dodo's sort of
36:25
dancing away like oh God, is this ever going to end, you
36:28
know? Yeah, those are the parts where
36:29
I think, yeah, with fairness you could Chuck it.
36:32
But I kind of think, you know, if if if hearing the song was
36:36
kind of a harbinger of or when the when the cheerful music
36:41
starts immortalizing these this, these this age, that's when the
36:47
the bad things started happening, People's attitude to
36:49
the music would change. It's like, oh, the music
36:51
started, Someone's going to die, you know that?
36:54
Then I think even people don't. The music would suddenly decide
36:56
they liked it. I just think it would be far
37:00
less unique without it, as well it would it would be a few
37:04
historical adventures with some laughs.
37:06
I I think I I I think it's a it's a strength of the episode
37:09
actually. But I do acknowledge that not
37:12
everybody feels that way. No, no, I said why.
37:16
But I do think for those people that could be I I can see a way
37:22
that it could be tweaked where they dislike if it could
37:25
actually be turned to. Actually, either either just the
37:29
dislike could be neutralized or it could be tweaked so they
37:32
actually think, Oh no, hang on, no, that works now maybe.
37:36
Or they can still hate it. And also.
37:38
Just who the fuck am I? Everybody's sort of opinion of a
37:41
song is so different. Some people just find it fucking
37:44
annoying. You know, like the actual, just
37:46
the song itself. Yeah, well, you know, some
37:48
people don't like The Godfather, but you know, what are you going
37:51
to do? Well, I'm sure Chris Hogburn
37:54
does, and he's got another question for you as we.
37:57
Have he? Says I do have a serious
37:59
question as well. Looking forward to your take.
38:02
Do historical adventures work better with a known character of
38:06
the time, or better for the characters to just be immersed
38:10
in the time period without really meeting major players
38:13
except for cameos? Depends on these of the story,
38:20
yeah. It's there's no one.
38:21
There isn't an answer to that. It's case by case basis.
38:25
Absolutely. Because sometimes, I mean, it's
38:29
just that we have like, you know, biopics.
38:31
There are some people whose whole lives are the story.
38:35
There are some people whose actions on one day of the story.
38:39
And sometimes an event is bigger than any one person.
38:44
Sometimes it's the, you know, meeting an historical personage
38:48
is the point. Sometimes being present for an
38:53
historical event is the point, and not all historical events
38:59
have people whose names you remember.
39:02
I really appreciated it when the new series started pushing away
39:06
from those celebrity adventures. I got a bit bored of sort of
39:10
romanticizing Shakespeare and. Yeah, and also as soon as
39:15
something becomes an identifiable formula, it's a
39:17
good time to drop it anyway. But for example, just one thing.
39:21
I can just feel thought of the top of my head if I think about
39:26
the the Hindenburg disaster. I can't think personally of any
39:31
notable historical person. She was present at the event.
39:34
But you could still do the The Doctor Who on the Hindenburg.
39:39
It doesn't. It doesn't all have to be.
39:41
Oh, it's like when when they did the partition of India in demons
39:45
of the Punjab and there was nobody.
39:47
Precisely. Precisely, yeah.
39:49
So there's no one answer to that.
39:51
There is no one approach which is inherently better than
39:54
another. It's entirely dependent on
39:57
whatever the story you happened to be telling requires you to do
40:01
with it. That's it.
40:02
Unatively, you've got Rosa where the entire story hinges around
40:06
that person. Yeah, exactly.
40:08
See. So yeah, So yeah, so 213th
40:11
Doctor stories which totally prove that teams of Punjab Rosa.
40:16
I think they're both great as. Well, yeah, exactly.
40:18
They're both. They're both highlights of that
40:20
era and they are those two different approaches.
40:23
And neither approach is better. It's just those, those are the
40:26
approaches necessary to tell those stories.
40:29
That's it. Well, Rob, if you get your gun
40:32
ready, we're heading into a bit of violence in episode 4.
40:38
Can we do that? Yeah, it's just.
40:41
Yeah, it's just I I I could tell you what you were.
40:45
You were you were you were searching for the anyway.
40:48
Yes. You.
40:51
Yeah. You.
40:52
Yeah, I could. I I could see.
40:53
I could see this. We're on Zoom as well.
40:55
You see. I could.
40:56
I could see the struggle, the internal conflict.
40:59
I can't get anything by you anymore.
41:00
It's really annoying. Yes, but those days have passed,
41:05
I'm afraid. Yes.
41:06
Grab your pistol then. All right.
41:08
OK, Draw. Oh, got.
41:12
It there I know I couldn't find. I haven't watched enough
41:15
episodes of IE being served, obviously.