Latest / Project Podcast / How to delegate effectively

Transcript

How to delegate effectively · Project Podcast

0:08
Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the childhood body for
0:12
the project profession. My name is Emma DaVita and I'm
0:15
the editor of Project APM's quarterly journal and your host.
0:19
In this podcast, I'm speaking to leadership and management expert
0:22
Joe Owen and Andy Alder, Managing Director of Major
0:26
Infrastructure Delivery at Anglin Water, about how to
0:29
delegate well. It's something every project
0:32
manager and leader needs to understand and practise
0:34
successfully if they want their teams to achieve what needs to
0:37
get done. So they give us their insider
0:40
do's and don'ts so that you can hone your mindset and learn how
0:44
to delegate better and actually who better to help us?
0:48
Andy was Thames Tideways Programme Director until 2023
0:52
and has spent his career managing and leading mega
0:54
projects and infrastructure projects.
0:57
With such impressive expertise under his belt, he tells me that
1:00
actually he first learnt how to delegate on camping trips and
1:03
scouts. Meanwhile, Joe is the founder of
1:07
Teach First and a go to expert and all matters to do with
1:10
leadership. He's the author of numerous
1:13
business books, including Smart Leadership, and is about to
1:16
publish How to Change the World, how social entrepreneurs can go
1:19
from initial ideas to global impact.
1:22
So we discuss everything from why you have to be able to
1:25
delegate to have successful projects, what usually goes
1:29
wrong, and how you can't delegate unless you can trust
1:32
your people. Listen on for their advice and
1:35
practical. Tips that you can use in your
1:36
projects, right? From today.
1:46
Andy and Joe, welcome to the OPM podcast.
1:48
It's nice to have you here. Thank you.
1:49
It's. Great to be with you.
1:51
Great. Well, I think an interesting
1:52
place to start would be for each of you to give me a bit of
1:55
background about your career. So, Andy, let's start with you
1:58
if you want to give me a brief overview of your career and the
2:02
kind of role you do now. So I'm a civil engineer by
2:05
background. I studied civil engineering and
2:08
the kind of first 6-7 years in my career were in design and,
2:13
and construction of, of major civil engineering projects,
2:17
particularly tunnelling projects in the UK, some internationally.
2:21
And then I was, I was getting to a point where the kind of
2:24
designer projects to, to bring together different aspects of a
2:27
multidisciplinary project needed more and more project
2:31
management. And I felt that was an area I
2:33
wanted to kind of take my career in.
2:34
So I did a project management master's at Reading University
2:38
and then spent the next kind of 10 years managing
2:41
multidisciplinary design and engineering projects.
2:45
And then Crossrail came along. So I so I moved on to, to
2:48
Crossrail and I started in a technical role and then LED
2:51
procurement and then delivery of some of the tunnelling contracts
2:54
on, on Crossrail moved on to Thames Tideway in 2015.
2:59
I ended up as programme director there.
3:01
So I was at Tideway for eight years where we did a lot of
3:04
work. I'm sure we'll come on to around
3:06
how do we really empower teams to deliver of their work and the
3:10
role of a project management programme management to
3:12
coordinate the work, but really empower and delegate so that
3:15
people can, you know, get that sense of their own in their
3:18
their part of the project. Since then, I now work at Anglia
3:21
Water, I'm managing director for our major infrastructure
3:24
delivery. So looking ahead at the next
3:26
investment programme and how we coordinate a £7 billion
3:30
programme over the next five years.
3:32
Thank you, Joe. Tell us a bit about your area of
3:35
interest. So, background.
3:38
I'm living evidence that career is a verb, not just a noun.
3:43
I started at Procter and Gamble and Brand Management, but the
3:47
belief Speckling Daz became the best nappy salesman in
3:50
Birmingham. Arguably my career had been
3:52
downhill ever since then. I think I decided to get into
3:57
consulting and which made me land up building a business in
4:01
Japan without speaking Japanese. I decided that was all far too
4:05
exciting, so I then decided to start a bank.
4:08
I got sued for $12 billion when a billion was worth something
4:13
along the way. And then I thought maybe I
4:16
better do something a bit better than that.
4:19
And so I start, I started to Teach First, which is now the
4:22
largest graduate recruiter in the UK, and eight other NGOs
4:26
since then, eight other NGOs with a combined turnover over
4:29
over 100 million a year. So I'm a sort of accidental
4:33
social entrepreneur, which has also led me to become an
4:37
accidental leadership guru because for Teach First, we had
4:41
to discover what leadership was all about.
4:43
So I've spent 20 years sort of looking at leadership right
4:48
around the world in all different contexts, all the way
4:51
from the nuclear deterrent through to 15 years worth of
4:56
hanging out with tribes around the world to see how they're led
4:58
and organised. And, and obviously delegation,
5:03
if you don't delegate, you're not a leader.
5:04
In fact you're probably not going to be a manager and you're
5:06
not going to survive. So delegation is absolutely at
5:09
the heart of it. And I'm now a fully fledged
5:13
leadership anorak. But when somewhere along the
5:17
line I became a became the head of research for the for one of
5:21
the political partisan in Westminster.
5:24
So yeah, it really is careers for not announcement.
5:27
Hey, the right is fun. I'd like to dive in with the
5:31
question I've most like answered, which is what do you
5:34
need to get right to delegate well and are there any myths
5:39
that need to be busted? So, Joe.
5:42
Yeah, we're talking about professionals here and
5:44
professionals are pretty smart and they've got, you know, they
5:47
want to do well. And is there a skill set around
5:50
delegation? Absolutely there there is.
5:54
But most professionals can get it pretty quickly and can do it
5:56
pretty well with without too much time, effort, training,
6:00
etcetera. The really biggest sue isn't the
6:03
skill set because you can train that.
6:05
The biggest sue is having the right headset and there are
6:10
there's a positive and negative here.
6:12
The positive is you've got to be able to trust your team.
6:15
If you trust your team, you will delegate to them because you
6:19
know you can delegate to them. OK.
6:21
If you don't trust your team, you're never going to delegate
6:24
them to them and either you've got the wrong team or the team
6:28
has the wrong manager. It's probably the second.
6:30
It's more likely to be the case. The trap on this is the headset
6:36
which says that the manager has to be the smartest person in the
6:39
room, which might have been true in the 19th century, possibly
6:44
throughout the 20th century, certainly not throughout the
6:46
21st century. Your job as a manager of
6:51
professionals of highly skilled professionals is not to be the
6:55
smartest person in the room. Your job is to get the smartest
6:59
people into the room and let them solve the problems for you.
7:04
And that requires very clear thinking about what your role is
7:07
as a manager versus their role. Do not try to be the smartest
7:11
person in the room. Do not take on the most
7:13
challenging problems all for yourself.
7:16
Show trust in your team, delegate to them, and they will
7:19
respond really positively because people respond when they
7:23
are trusted. They know when they're trusted.
7:25
They want to rise to the challenge.
7:28
They will be motivated to do well for you, and then when you
7:32
delegate them, they will learn and develop and become even more
7:35
valuable team members. Andy, would you agree with Joe?
7:40
100% agree. I think absolutely that that
7:45
being able to trust your team is is, is a hugely important part
7:49
of this. And that that comes from
7:52
selecting the right team in the 1st place, making sure you've
7:54
got the right people in the team.
7:55
But I think there's a, you know, starting out from a point of, I
7:59
think people come from it, either you, you, you don't trust
8:02
someone until they earn the trust or you, you trust someone
8:05
until they get to a point where, hang on, this is, this is not a
8:08
work win. I'm, I'm definitely for the
8:11
latter, you know, right, get the right people and trust them and,
8:14
and see how that works. And 99.9% of the time that that
8:18
is really effective. There's another part of, of
8:21
recognising that small projects are long term things often and
8:25
mega projects are very long term things.
8:27
And part of your role as a leader is not just to get the
8:29
job done, but to develop the team for, for that project and
8:33
for future projects. So accepting that some of the
8:38
process of delegation and empowerment is going to be a
8:41
learning process for, for everybody.
8:43
And that's in the long term, that's a, that's a, that's a
8:46
very valid part of what, what project management is all about.
8:49
And, and then exactly as Joe says, you're not there to be the
8:52
smartest person in the room. Often you're managing a team of
8:55
experts of different disciplines.
8:56
You can't possibly know more than they do about those
8:59
disciplines. Tide Waver was a good example.
9:02
We had 21 sites, project managers for each site.
9:05
They knew far more about that site and the challenges and the
9:08
issues and the risks and the stakeholders and and so on than
9:12
than I could ever think to try and learn.
9:14
So it's a kind of, it's a servant leadership thing in some
9:16
way of recognising those folk know most about that project.
9:21
And your role as the the overall leader programme manager is to
9:25
support those project managers in delivering their projects and
9:27
then to make sure they're being integrated and, and sharing
9:30
practise and learning, etcetera between them and, and
9:32
coordinating things. So and, and the point there is
9:35
really good the the manager has to be really clear about what
9:40
her or his role is, which which sounds obvious, but it isn't.
9:45
You know, often managers think their job is to take on the the
9:47
biggest and toughest challenges that the team faces.
9:50
They often have this problem of that I talk about as the leader
9:54
in the locker room that it's like the football player that
9:58
gets promoted to manager because they're a really good football
10:01
player. So they get promoted to being
10:03
coach and they're so excited. They go around thinking, oh,
10:06
I've now got to run twice fast, you know, score twice as many
10:09
goals, make twice as many tackles and then they get fired
10:12
and they go, well, what went wrong?
10:13
Well, the job of the coach isn't, you know, run onto the
10:17
pitch and tackle everyone and try and score goals.
10:21
The job as a coach is to, as Andy said to me, pick the right
10:24
team, the right tactics get get the right people to get the most
10:27
out of them and probably wave their arms on the sidelines a
10:30
bit. If it's football in in
10:33
management, it's a little bit more complicated because you're
10:38
surrounded by all these very smart people on your team who
10:42
can sort of do all the heavy lifting for you.
10:45
So if they do, if you delegate everything away, what's left for
10:49
you? And I think this leads to one of
10:52
the traps of delegation that people ask the wrong question.
10:55
They say, what can I delegate? And the answer is a very short
10:57
list actually, if you if you look at it that way.
11:01
So I tend to encourage managers to ask the opposite question,
11:04
which is what is it that I absolutely cannot delegate under
11:09
any circumstances whatsoever. And again, you come up with
11:14
actually a very short list, and that short list defines where
11:18
you as a manager really add value.
11:22
And if you just focus on that, then everything else goes and
11:26
you can do quite radical delegation.
11:28
I really like that I haven't just to flip it like that makes
11:31
such sense and to focus on what is unique to what you're doing.
11:35
What cannot be delegated? Andy, how did we learn how to
11:40
delegate? I learned to delegate when and
11:44
leadership generally. I learned when I was in the
11:46
Scouts way back and, and you know, the kind of training at a
11:50
time then was your, your role is to, and it, I mean, it would
11:54
have been fairly informal training, but you're, you're
11:56
there to get, you know, a particular task done.
11:58
I don't know that's to hike from A to B or get a tent put up or
12:03
cook a meal for the whatever it might be, but you're there to
12:06
get it done. You've got a group of five or
12:08
six, you know, others with you and part of your role is to make
12:11
sure they've got things that are useful to do and they're part of
12:14
the team. You're not doing everything.
12:15
They're, they're involved, they've got a role, they
12:18
understand what their role is and how that all fits together
12:20
and that they're enjoying it. And if they're struggling that
12:23
you're helping them out and if they're doing well, you're
12:25
recognising they're doing well. So it it cut it for me, it
12:28
stands right back to 40 years ago.
12:31
I didn't think you were going to say that.
12:32
I was thinking the first project you managed not to go all the
12:35
way back to the Scouts. But I mean, that's fantastic.
12:38
It it truly is. And then you, I guess you just
12:41
grow and build from and of course, I've had opportunities
12:44
through career to as managing teams and teams get bigger to to
12:48
do that. I was going to go back to the
12:50
point that Joe made there about when, particularly when
12:53
challenges come along, when, when projects have got some
12:56
challenges or where there's something a really tricky
12:59
interface or, you know, a really difficult piece of work.
13:03
And that's the time you have to really trust your ability to
13:07
delegate because there's this kind of tendency of this is
13:10
really difficult. And when it, you know, someone
13:13
needs to come in and more senior take over the thing because it's
13:15
more difficult. And that's the and you can do
13:17
that is the time to just lean in and support the team more.
13:21
But really trust that the team who do this day in, day out and
13:24
are really good at what they do and you've empowered them to do
13:27
that. You stay there and support them
13:29
when it's challenging rather than potentially take that
13:31
empowerment away when things get a bit difficult.
13:35
And Andy, that's absolutely right.
13:37
Those are the moments of truth where you, you define how you
13:41
are seen as a leader because it is often so tempting to throw
13:47
all the good behaviours out around delegation.
13:49
And as you say, just take control.
13:50
And if you want a job doing, you've got to do it yourself.
13:52
All that kind of good stuff. And you do that in a crisis and
13:59
basically all, all trust in the team disappears because they'll
14:02
go, all right, we know that, you know, this boss doesn't actually
14:06
really, really trust us. So we we just do as do as we're
14:10
told. On the other hand, if you're
14:13
brave and you do trust them, it is amazing what these people can
14:18
do. I mean, people are just so good.
14:20
And actually, COVID was a great example where in one weekend,
14:28
yeah, we, we went from working from home, being sort of
14:31
shirking from home to being standard operating procedure.
14:35
No leader knew how to do it, but no one knew how to do it.
14:38
So everywhere people just told teams, well, you know, get on
14:43
with it and tell us what you need and tell us how to work it
14:46
out. And guess what?
14:48
You know, people did work it out.
14:50
You know, that that was a massive national experiment in
14:54
delegation under extreme circumstances and it worked very
14:59
well at the time. It's now unravelling for all
15:01
sorts of reasons. That's fine.
15:02
But you know, it just showed that, you know, professionals
15:06
and experts are good at what they do and as you say, trust
15:09
them, support them, and they will 99% of the time repay those
15:14
dividends that trust to you massively.
15:18
I think Joe Covid's a good example where if we had tried to
15:22
manage the detail of every site that was ongoing through Imagine
15:25
COVID, then no one's looking at what is the bigger picture and
15:29
how does it all this coming together and what do we do next
15:33
week, the week after and how do we work our way through this?
15:34
So the other part of delegation, whether it's things are going
15:37
well or more challenging, is it allows you to have the headspace
15:40
to look across the horizon, which is really part of our role
15:44
as leaders is to be looking around the corner, looking
15:46
across the horizon, what's coming up next and supporting,
15:49
coaching the team through some of those challenges rather than
15:52
being we're stuck in the detail, stuck in the weeds.
15:54
We're never going to be able to do that and then we're failing
15:57
our teams by not helping them to see see ahead.
16:01
We're APM, the only chartered membership organisation for the
16:05
project profession. When you become an APM member,
16:08
you'll receive the resources and support you need to make an
16:11
impact, delivering better projects with better outcomes.
16:15
Plus, you'll access exclusive training and benefits to support
16:18
your ongoing career development. Find out how we can help you
16:21
reach your potential by visiting apm.org.uk.
16:26
Because when projects succeed, society benefits.
16:32
As a leader, as a project leader, a project manager, that
16:35
there must be the right sort of culture to create on a team
16:38
where delegation and trust, I think they go hand in hand,
16:43
starts to embed itself amongst everyone, even those who are
16:46
reluctant to let go. I wondered if that's something
16:50
you found Andy and and have you got any advice on creating a
16:54
culture that that promotes delegation and trust on the
16:57
project? In, in through delegation, if
17:00
you're responsible for accountable for for a programme
17:03
or project and you're delegating, of course you need
17:06
to know what's going on because you're accountable for it.
17:09
So I think I think part of that is set in the kind of the make
17:12
sure that through delegation you've got the objective is
17:14
really clear. So there's 100% alignment
17:18
between, between the team as to what you're trying to achieve
17:22
and what success looks like. Alignment as to what the kind of
17:25
guardrails are, what the boundaries that say, look, if,
17:28
if it's staying within those boundaries, that's fantastic.
17:31
We'll have the, the weekly reports, the monthly reports,
17:33
etcetera. If it's straying outside of
17:36
those boundaries, that's the time to to flag up that there's,
17:40
you know, something that's not going as as planned and the
17:42
leader needs to know about it or, or you know, and it's a you
17:46
need to know about it. And it might be, I need a bit of
17:48
support. So I think being really clear on
17:51
on those boundaries or delegation authorities, however
17:53
that's, that that's framed is important.
17:56
I think there's a real bit about the kind of relationship
17:58
building and the, and the, and the culture where people, you
18:03
know, you're, you're, you're conversing on a regular basis,
18:06
you're, you're having, you're, you're taking an interest in, to
18:09
what's going on and, and asking the right questions about, have
18:12
you thought about this? What, what you know, are you
18:15
concerned about this? I've, I've noticed this, that
18:17
you're seeing the same thing, not to take responsibility away,
18:21
but just coaching folks to the coaching A-Team to see what the
18:24
challenges might be and be aware of it.
18:26
And through that, that kind of, you know, culture of trust or
18:30
psychological safety that, that people are comfortable to say,
18:33
look, I'm, I've got a bit of an issue here.
18:36
I'm a bit worried about this. I think you ought to be aware of
18:38
it. Or can you have a look and see
18:40
what you think about about it and a comfortable raising that.
18:43
And I think delegation is, is two ways that you you and
18:46
empowerment, particularly people want to be empowered and and
18:49
rightly so. But that does come with the
18:50
responsibility of doing doing the right thing.
18:53
And, you know, being able to demonstrate that you're doing
18:56
the right thing and, and working in in line with the, the values
18:59
of the organisation, the culture of the organisation, what's
19:02
really important. And being able to flag up when
19:05
there was when there are things of, of concern or of, you know,
19:10
or various of deviation that the the leader ought to be aware of.
19:13
So trust has to go two ways. In every organisation I, I've
19:18
started and chair and what have you, I encourage a culture of
19:22
radical honesty where issues can get raised and they get raised
19:28
early so that you can act on them and deal with them.
19:31
And that means you do have to create a safe space where you
19:35
know, if there is a problem, people don't get their head
19:37
bitten off. It's like, no, thank you very
19:40
much. That is incredibly helpful.
19:42
Now let's talk about how we fix the issue.
19:46
So that safe space is really important.
19:49
That comes down to the manager. And that's a cultural thing.
19:51
OK. The second piece is is that that
19:55
Andy mentioned is that delegation is possibly a two way
20:02
St. So let's talk about that
20:06
delegation downwards, obviously is good.
20:09
What I see some teams do is they try to delegate stuff back up
20:15
and they'll keep on coming to to the manager saying, oh, look,
20:19
you know, I've got this monkey on my back.
20:21
What do I do with the monkey? All right.
20:22
And so, you know, the manager being a very smart manager, very
20:26
good manager, says, I'll tell you what, you know, I'll, I'll
20:28
sort the monkey out for you. All right, fine, you take the
20:30
monkey and then realising that the boss is in a good mood, you
20:34
know, everybody else in the team come, you know, goes to the
20:36
manage with my mum. And by the end of the day, you
20:40
know, the manager has a room full of monkeys wreaking havoc
20:44
and, you know, managed thinks they've done terribly good job
20:47
by being very nice to each team member and sort of sorting out
20:50
their problems. But what's been going on is the
20:52
problems just been delegated upwards.
20:55
The better manager stays true to delegation and doesn't.
21:00
They can take the problem off their shoulders, but can help
21:04
talk the problem through, ask the right questions and coach
21:07
the team member to help them discover the solution that they
21:12
need. So they take the monkey away and
21:14
if their manager is really clever, they can give the person
21:17
another monkey to look after as well.
21:18
So that you know that room is inquired at the end.
21:21
But it's so Jeff be beware of the upwards delegation.
21:27
Yeah, I see nodding your head. You're agreeing, Andy.
21:30
Absolutely. So I think they're they're
21:31
they're sort of, you know, we all want to be empowered.
21:33
We want to have responsibility and have the freedom to choose
21:36
how to solve our problems. But that comes with a
21:39
responsibility that you do take ownership of those problems and
21:42
you, you inform where there's issues, but, but you don't pass
21:46
responsibility back up, You know, try to coach people in,
21:51
you know, whether that's in the general, you know, conversation
21:53
or updates or the regular project reporting is report on
21:58
the issues, but then report on issues, Say this is an issue,
22:00
but I'm dealing with it. This is an issue you need to be
22:03
aware of, but I'm dealing with it or this is an issue.
22:06
And actually I need some help with it.
22:08
And, and just kind of differentiate those out a bit.
22:11
And, and I totally agree with the psychological safety piece
22:13
where if people do raise a flag to say they're worried about say
22:17
it's concern or something's not gone gone well, the worst thing
22:21
you can do is bite your head off because you know very quickly
22:24
you're not going to find out what's going on.
22:27
There's a bit of a problem, isn't there, with a bit of blame
22:29
culture on projects when you've got different stakeholders
22:32
involved and partners. I mean, I'm sure you've
22:34
experienced that and I'm definitely detecting a move away
22:39
from that to a much more trusting and open and
22:42
transparent culture within projects.
22:45
But are things moving to a better place now?
22:48
And if you find yourself in that kind of projects or dealing with
22:53
other partners who have that mindset, how do you deal with
22:58
that? Feels less common now, but maybe
23:01
I've just been lucky as as Joe said earlier, I think you've got
23:04
a big role as a leader, you know, if pressure's coming onto
23:07
you. So I don't, you know, people are
23:08
getting a bit annoyed or frustrated.
23:10
They're blaming around the status or something.
23:13
You've got a responsibility as a leader.
23:14
Soak that up and, and then, you know, provide the, the air cover
23:19
to the team to let the team carry on doing what they're
23:21
doing. Because, because ultimately, if,
23:24
if things aren't going as planned, the last thing you need
23:26
is the team getting stressed about that.
23:28
The best thing you need is the team needs to stay confident and
23:30
stable and, and managing their way through the issue.
23:32
So you got to kind of shield them.
23:34
I mean, often that is, is reporting back up to say, look,
23:37
I know this isn't in the greatest of shape, but this is
23:39
all the stuff that people are doing.
23:41
You know, everyone is doing their very best and some
23:43
examples of, of what they're doing.
23:45
So you can, you know, go in, make sure the team are being
23:48
recognised for what they are doing in often under difficult
23:50
circumstances. And I, I see this a lot in
23:53
coaching people where it's always the fault of the other
23:57
person. Always, every single time.
24:00
And yeah, you get this long sort of story about how unfair the
24:04
world is and the I said, she said you meant and he didn't,
24:08
and they should have and I could have and they didn't.
24:10
That discussion is a completely redundant and useless
24:15
discussion. I let people dump that just
24:18
because they need to dump it so that they feel personally
24:21
vindicated. But then very quickly you just
24:25
have to move on to, OK, So what do we want to do about it?
24:30
If you really want to sort of you look back a little bit, you
24:33
may say, well, OK, what would the other person be telling me
24:36
about this situation? And they often find that very
24:39
difficult to respond to. But even that's a slightly
24:42
dangerous, just move it forwards to what do we want to do about
24:45
this? Where's the solution?
24:47
What are your options? And then you quickly get a much
24:51
more productive and positive space and you can say, look, we
24:55
can do the post mortem later and they go OK, fine.
24:59
And later comes, later goes, you don't bother with the postmortem
25:02
because who cares by that point here?
25:03
By the time the problem is solved, don't care.
25:05
Yeah, I mean, 100% agree with you that with this challenge is
25:08
let's understand the facts of the situation, what are our
25:10
options, what's the way forward and move forward.
25:13
There may well be some useful learning to say, well, how do we
25:16
get in this situation and what learning do we need to to take
25:20
from that to to to share out. And, and that was another part
25:23
of our kind of philosophy on on tideways, we had 21 sites.
25:28
If you took health, health and safety as a particular example.
25:31
And we all share the view the most important thing we do every
25:33
day is make sure our teams go home safely.
25:35
You know, that that's that's fundamentally core, particularly
25:38
on big construction projects. So there's been a challenge, you
25:42
know, situation that's that where where safety's been put at
25:46
risk or potentially compromised on one side.
25:49
We need people to be comfortable to raise that there's been an
25:51
issue and report it. We need to then do the proper in
25:56
that safe environment, understand actually what
25:58
happened and what's they're learning from it, because then
26:00
we can share that with the other 20 sites and make sure they
26:03
don't have a similar problem. Because if it's happened
26:06
somewhere good people have found have have, you know, had a
26:08
problem on some on one site, you know, they've, they're
26:11
experienced, clever people and they've still had a problem.
26:14
It's, you know, highly likely that others would have the same
26:16
problem unless we share that. And that was part of back to
26:19
your point about the leaders role is not to deal with
26:22
everything, but it's to step back and make sure that we join
26:25
in the dots. I really wanted to get some
26:28
practical tips from how to delegate any hacks or tips
26:32
because Andy, one of the reasons I want to speak to you was, was
26:36
for your work on Thames Sideway and this idea of around decision
26:40
making and understanding what decisions could be made by
26:44
various people, by project managers and and surprising.
26:47
Can you tell us a bit about that?
26:48
And do do you have any real life examples where where delegation
26:52
works really well that you've learnt and would pass on to
26:55
other project professionals? Yeah, no, absolutely.
26:59
So, yeah, situation on type way, £4 billion projects spread
27:03
across 25 kilometres, three different construction joint
27:07
venture companies, 21 sites, project managers for each.
27:11
Quite, quite obviously we need to empower the teams to manage
27:14
their sites and their delivery areas that that's the only way
27:17
we're going to deliver a project at that scale.
27:20
And one of the things we did sort of practically is, is the
27:23
book turned the ship around. We used that as a kind of good
27:27
guidance, good kind of point of reference about delegation and
27:30
and really getting value out of the team and and how to empower
27:33
people. Is that?
27:34
Turn the ship around. By David Marquette.
27:38
That's it. That's the one.
27:39
Yeah. So just looking here that he's
27:42
U.S. Navy captain.
27:44
Yeah, the story of the book is U.S.
27:46
Navy captain trained to to operate one type of submarine,
27:50
but was deployed to to to lead a a different type of submarine.
27:54
And in the, the kind of expectation is every decision
27:57
needs to be made, needs to go up to the captain and say how do I
28:00
do this? And captain tells you exactly
28:01
what to do. It's so well, that's not going
28:03
to work. So into this kind of intent
28:06
leadership where captain sets out the vision, what the
28:09
objective is, what the what the kind of guardrails are.
28:11
And then people are coming and saying, look, this is a
28:13
situation, this is what I think I want to do about it because
28:16
they're the expert and the captain says, have you thought
28:18
about this? Are you, you know, have you
28:20
considered that? Yep, Yep, you know, have that
28:22
discussion. I said, OK, very well, that's
28:23
the that's the way to go forward.
28:25
So that balance of knowing what's going on with leaving,
28:30
you know, really empowering the team.
28:32
So we kind of use that as a kind of discussion book for coaching
28:37
and discussion about what we want to do and then set some
28:40
rules around what level of decision making flows from
28:45
project manager up to, you know, area delivery manager, programme
28:49
director, chief exec. And but then it kind of felt
28:52
like we weren't, it was working, but it wasn't really working as
28:55
well as we wanted. And I think there was a bit of,
28:58
you know, and over a fairly short period of time where
29:00
people think, well, am I really empowered?
29:02
Am I really trusted to do this? So we ran 2 workshops, one with
29:06
the chief exec and the exec committee that went down a list
29:09
of different scenarios that said which ones of these do we want
29:12
the CEO to have the decision on? Which one do we want the exec
29:15
committee, programme director, project manager and there.
29:19
And there really were only, you know, a couple of things where
29:22
the chief exec said, that's, that's a red button that only I
29:25
can press and the rest of it delegate down.
29:28
And then we had the same workshop with the project
29:31
managers on the same set of scenarios where some they say,
29:34
well, we want to make that decision and say, you know,
29:37
Jeff, guess what? The chief exec agrees that you
29:39
can make that decision. There's some they say, well, I
29:41
think the CEO should make this decision and say, well, the CEO
29:43
thinks that you should make the decision.
29:45
And we kind of talked those things through.
29:46
So we got that alignment where decision making played.
29:49
And of course, over time, we would need to coach that and,
29:53
and keep talking to make sure we're keeping things in the
29:55
right place. But that was a, that was quite a
29:57
useful exercise to get everybody aligned in kind of decision
30:01
making and authority. I finally learned the art of
30:04
delegation, not from the Scouts, because I didn't join the
30:07
Scouts, but from two sources. First, the laziest manager ever.
30:13
And he was brilliant, which meant he was brilliant at
30:15
delegating. He delegated everything.
30:17
So he had a very nice easy life. I mean, and so here, the art of
30:21
lazy management, I sort of thoroughly subscribe to, if
30:25
you're really, really good at this and you know, where you add
30:28
value. And he always talked about
30:30
successful conversation. You know, how do I set you up
30:33
for success? Which is great.
30:35
Isn't that a lovely conversation?
30:36
How do I set you up for success? And the essence of the success
30:42
conversation, I learned from the James Bond film where at one
30:44
point the villain, and it calls the story of how he started out
30:48
as a journalist on a rag in Hong Kong or somewhere.
30:52
He said all journalists had talked to answer The Who, what,
30:56
where, when and how. And he said, but by far the most
30:59
interesting question is always why?
31:03
And that's the success conversation.
31:05
Who, what, where, when and how. It'd be really clear about
31:08
those. But by far the most interesting
31:11
question is always why are we doing this?
31:15
What why are we really trying to do this as opposed to other
31:17
things? And once you understand the why,
31:19
then then the team member can make all those trade-offs
31:23
around, you know, do I go this way or that way on on those
31:27
marginal calls? But if they don't understand the
31:29
why, they're going to keep on coming back to you and saying,
31:31
should we do this or should we do that?
31:34
So I just always now just think of the success conversation.
31:38
And then at the end, I always explicitly say, yeah, so are we
31:41
set up for success? Is there anything else you need?
31:44
Can you see any obstacles that will stop you?
31:46
Oh, and then I always say, well, you know, why don't we just come
31:50
back in 24 hours and talk about it again because inevitably you
31:54
think you've done the delegation.
31:55
Delegation is not an event where you just say here it is and go
31:59
away. It's a continuing discussion
32:02
where people are trying to really internalise what to do
32:07
and how to do it because you've thought about all the trade-offs
32:10
in your mind, you're very clear about it.
32:13
Your team members are not mind readers, so you have to make it
32:18
a conversation where it's a slow process of discovery and you
32:21
have to be patient with that. And talking about why, one of
32:25
the questions I wanted to ask is why delegate?
32:28
If your early career project manager and you've been doing
32:33
very well and perhaps that's your first chance to manage the
32:36
team or your manager going up into a leadership role, why
32:41
should you be a good delegator? Because you you will fail 100%
32:46
if you don't delegate. It is that simple.
32:48
The rules of survival and success change at every level of
32:54
So you know when you're in the front line, it's all about doing
32:57
it yourself and showing you the good and you've mastered your
32:59
trade. You know, just like the
33:00
footballer on the football field show, you can kick the ball and
33:03
run around. Your job as the coach is not to
33:06
kick the ball and run around. Your job as the coach is to
33:10
select the team, train the team, develop the team, make sure
33:14
they've got the right resources to term the tactics, all that
33:18
kind of good stuff. It's a fundamentally a different
33:22
job, which is why you know, so many great footballers are not
33:28
great managers and you know, journeymen footballers often
33:31
become great managers. They're different jobs and
33:34
equally becoming a director of a football club is completely
33:37
different again. So you, you just have to learn
33:41
it And, and if you can't delegate, the first signs of
33:45
trouble are you will be working far too long, you will be
33:50
getting far too stressed and your team will be getting
33:53
alienated and antsy. And if you want to find what the
33:57
problem is, look in the mirror, OK?
34:01
And the problem is fundamentally that you're not not delegating
34:04
and you're not trusting. So, but equally, if you do
34:08
delegate and trust, your team will respond.
34:11
Their motivation will go up, their performance will go up,
34:13
their learning will go up. They'll be better and more
34:17
valuable team members. Andy, I wanted to ask you, what
34:21
have you learned over the years about how to let people get on
34:24
with the job, but equally they feel supported and you get the
34:28
best from them? What?
34:29
What's what advice did you pass on?
34:32
I think there's, I think back to something Joe said right at the
34:36
start is this, there's a, there's a mindset thing to start
34:38
to start with. And just, if we remembered back
34:40
in our careers a bit when you were, when you're first trusted
34:44
and you're empowered and you, you own a project and you're
34:46
responsible for this thing. But you know, the feeling you
34:50
get the, of being trusted to do something and this task, this
34:53
activity, this, this thing is, is yours to manage.
34:56
You've got the flexibility to decide how it's done.
34:59
It's really empowering and, and you and you want to put your
35:02
best into it. So I think there's a bit of
35:04
remembering ourselves and, and passing that on, you know, the
35:08
mindset of passing that on and and we all know when you we've,
35:12
if you've had a micromanaging boss who then starts telling
35:14
you, no, I don't want it done like this.
35:15
I want it done by that. You're like, it's pretty
35:17
demotivating and you know, you feel like the point so well,
35:20
just you just tell me how to do everything or what you know, why
35:22
don't you do it yourself then? So not being that that person
35:26
is, is a mindset thing. I think knowing as a leader or
35:30
manager that if you're spending all your time micromanaging
35:34
someone, you're actually not doing a thing you're really
35:37
there to do, which is to, to look at the bigger picture.
35:40
But I think it's just that conversation that you're
35:42
agreeing with someone. This is what the purpose, the
35:45
objective of the, of the task or the activity, you know, making
35:48
sure they understand what that is and what good looks like.
35:51
And if you're, if there's things that you're saying, well, you
35:54
know, this is what you need to do, but the, the budget is that
35:58
or the time frame it is this or the standards we need to comply
36:03
with are those so that people know what boundaries they can
36:05
operate in. And, and having that
36:07
conversation, it's clear. And it's as much about listening
36:10
as it is about talking. So people get the chance to play
36:14
back their understanding and what their, what their thinking
36:17
is and what they're worried about and giving people the
36:19
opportunity to come back and having looked at the tasks
36:22
they've got to come and say we're at, well, this is, this is
36:24
how I'm thinking about doing it. This is the steps I'm planning
36:26
to take. So you can have the sort of
36:29
conversation that that doesn't direct them how to do it, but
36:33
asks the right questions to make sure that risks are being
36:36
considered properly, opportunities being considered.
36:39
You can coach people through that without micromanaging it.
36:43
So you're getting the right kind of control and guidance and
36:45
support. But people are, you know,
36:48
enjoying that you have the opportunity to to own something
36:51
and be empowered to to do it. And then the, as as we said
36:55
earlier on, that's that the relationship so that people, if
36:58
they are a bit worried about something, they can, you know,
37:02
put their hand up, give you a ring, come and tap you on the
37:04
shoulder and say, look, can we just have a chat about this?
37:06
Because I'm a bit bit worried about this.
37:09
Was there any other bits of advice you haven't had a chance
37:11
to give, or anything you'd like to mention?
37:14
Any thoughts? Just trust your team, That's it.
37:19
Fully agree with that. And, and I guess also we, we
37:21
come into our industries and Koreas thinking we want to
37:24
achieve something. In my case is I want to build
37:26
projects that are making a difference in the world.
37:28
And then you get to a point in your career where you realise
37:31
actually there's only so many things you can build in your
37:34
career. But what you can do is if you're
37:37
coaching and training and developing the next generation
37:40
of leaders, they're going to be building stuff way past your
37:43
retirement and doing the same for for others.
37:45
So there's a massive part of our of our role as leaders is to
37:49
develop the next generation of leaders rather than just doing
37:53
what we can in our career. Andy, that's a great way to end
37:57
this podcast. Thank you so much for your time.
38:00
That's been brilliant. Thanks again to Andy and Joe for
38:12
joining us and to you for listening to the APM podcast.
38:15
I hope they've given you much food for thought and practical.
38:18
Advice on how you can delegate better.
38:21
Don't forget to look out for more episodes or to rating
38:23
reviews wherever you get your podcasts.
38:26
We'd. Welcome you to get in.
38:27
Touch with your comments, feedback and suggestions by
38:29
emailing us at APM Podcast at. Thinkpublishing.co.uk.
38:35
This podcast has been brought to you by APM, the chartered body
38:38
for the project profession. For more information on APM,
38:42
visit. Apm.org.uk.