Latest / Graeme Souness Tackles / Sir Kenny Dalglish: Liverpool, Winning the European Cup & Rooming Together | Graeme Souness Tackles Ep 1

Transcript

Sir Kenny Dalglish: Liverpool, Winning the European Cup & Rooming Together | Graeme Souness Tackles Ep 1 · Graeme Souness Tackles

0:05
Hi, I'm Graham Sinness, welcome to my new show Graham Sinness
0:09
Tackles. Could the players today have
0:11
played when we played? I think it was Danny
0:14
Blanchflower. It's best to retaliate first.
0:17
All the focus goes on to the manager today and what he's not
0:20
done and the players would appear to escape are relatively
0:23
free. They may be to help when it was
0:25
up to us provide that support for them.
0:27
I was over excited that they. Were over the top no over
0:30
excited just know it's what it's called.
0:32
Have you know Mr word out there like outrageous tackle.
0:35
I don't. Know what you're on about.
0:43
Thanks for doing this. No problem, Charles.
0:47
This is my first time to be kind to me and they've given me these
0:50
cards, but I don't think I'll need any of them.
0:54
Why does it say Joker on them? That's your one.
0:56
I'm the Yeah joker in all of them.
0:59
So can I start? And I think I worked it out last
1:02
night when we had a glass of wine.
1:04
Why? I used to train at Celtic on a
1:06
Tuesday and a Thursday. Yeah.
1:08
And you were about two years older than me and I would come
1:11
through from ever on a Tuesday and Thursday train.
1:14
You would have been there at the same time.
1:16
I started training there when I was 16 and they farmed us up to
1:23
Cumbernauld United for toughing the up a wee bit.
1:27
Did it work? Well, you were playing in
1:29
Glasgow football anyway so. Couldn't get much.
1:33
Couldn't get much tougher so that was only trained one night.
1:40
I trained with Cumbernauld and the other night.
1:42
So you're 16, I'm 14. So when you went to Cumbernauld,
1:45
you weren't, it was just one night a week there.
1:48
I I can't remember you. Why would I not remember you?
1:51
I was working as an apprentice joiner during the day.
1:56
I should have stuck to that I think.
1:58
I don't. Think they've taken it for
1:59
there. Well, I just do, you know, in
2:02
case I forget. I just know it's what it's
2:04
called tackles. Yes.
2:07
Have you know Mr Word out there? Like.
2:11
Right. Outrageous tackles don't.
2:15
Know what you're on about. Never, never be sent off.
2:18
So you're all right. You can.
2:20
I did sometimes must time the tackle, your Honour.
2:24
It may have been, but that's what it was now.
2:26
I think at times you blame the other guy for being too slow.
2:29
Exactly. But you know what it's like in
2:31
those days, I mean, people talk about the tough guys and I was
2:34
maintaining this even to today, although it's there's not, it's
2:37
not the same way anymore in in football, the really tough guys
2:41
were where you played up front, you're playing when you're back
2:44
to where you want to go. Generally guys are a lot bigger,
2:47
more powerful. So you're accepting of all
2:49
knowing you're going to get smashed from behind.
2:52
There's nothing tough about centre halves coming through
2:55
people when they got their backs turned.
2:57
So for me, I've always maintained that the really tough
2:59
guys were the strikers. But you were cute.
3:02
You always saw them coming. Yeah, I mean it.
3:06
I think that logic a jokes Dean sending us out to semi
3:11
professional clubs to talk with. That's junior football.
3:14
Yeah. So that worked because I think
3:19
it was Danny Blanchflower that said that it's best to retaliate
3:22
first. But the game was different then.
3:24
I mean, you would you would you would deal with.
3:26
Yeah, but the tackles were at a different level to them as well.
3:30
Didn't. They a different height but you
3:33
would you would have that when you went out to play.
3:36
I know we're getting ahead of ourselves but when we played
3:38
together at Liverpool it's not something we've ever spoke
3:41
about. But you knew you would look at
3:43
the team sheet you're going to play against you go.
3:45
He's a big lump and I know what's coming.
3:47
The first couple of minutes we get the chance he's going to
3:49
come through me. Was that in your mind when you
3:51
went out to play? I knew what was coming, but if
3:56
you know what's coming, you can. It was my, yeah, yeah, my
4:01
Kenneth, my experience of playing against, you know, the
4:04
top players, the top top players, you know, the the
4:07
strikers, the guys, you know, the match winners.
4:09
They they knew it was coming. They could sense it was coming.
4:12
They had a sixth sense to who they were playing against and
4:16
what type of challenge was coming their way.
4:20
And that's why for me, I'm getting totally off off.
4:24
No, you're on a good track here. No, no, no.
4:26
But I'm messy at Maradona, Who was the greatest of all time?
4:30
I think most people would say it was one of them.
4:32
But Maradona played at a time when there was violence in
4:35
football, where Messi's and the pitches were different.
4:39
And Messi's, Messi's playing at a time where less violence and
4:43
pitches were like carpets. How would you have fared on the
4:47
pitches today? Probably rubbish, I don't know,
4:52
but my first league game for Liverpool was at Middlesbrough
4:59
and somebody you talk about somebody tackling you, somebody
5:04
tackled my elbow and it was on my feet and that person isn't
5:08
too far away from me. Is that right?
5:11
Yeah, so you must have mistaken, you must have mistaken a few
5:15
tackles. No, but.
5:19
But but you. Kind.
5:21
Of you had to survive, you had to survive, didn't you?
5:25
Who knows what light you would be either beforehand or
5:29
afterwards. Yeah, but yeah, because of.
5:31
Well, all right, the. Years that you played so.
5:33
I'm strongly getting an answer out of you.
5:34
I know you're being, but I'm I'm going to answer it for you.
5:38
The question I get asked most of the most of the time.
5:40
I bet you do as well. Could you play it in the modern
5:42
game? And then I would say don't,
5:45
don't ask me that. Ask me this.
5:47
Could the players today have played when we played and, you
5:50
know, the generations before us? And where do you need the most
5:53
technique? Is it on a bobbly pitch?
5:55
Well, you have to take an extra touch which would encourage A
5:57
tackle. Or you just play on a carpet.
5:59
Let the boys play today. I think if you've been a
6:03
successful player, right, in successful teams, you could play
6:08
anything because you would adjust it.
6:10
And actually pitches nowadays for the kids, I mean feeling a
6:15
bit young, 9/10/11 year old, they're probably a bit better
6:20
than what there was when we were growing up.
6:23
And those pictures, the pictures we played in, I mean, the, the,
6:27
the guy, the people that ran the clubs were brilliant.
6:30
They gave up their times and they came.
6:32
And if it's no for them coming, there's no football, right?
6:35
But they used to come their medical basket or bag right was
6:41
a toothbrush and iodine because if you don't own a gravel and
6:47
they cut yourself, they were straight over me the ID.
6:49
I was going to ask you do I explain people are watching and
6:53
watching this, listening to this.
6:54
It didn't, not for me because I was from Edinburgh, but you in
6:57
Glasgow. Explain to the people listening
7:00
what the pitches were in Glasgow as a kid.
7:03
Cinder the. The pitches were rough.
7:08
No, they were cinder. We never.
7:10
We didn't play on gravel. Yeah, we didn't play on gravel.
7:13
Yeah, no. And even the goal posts were
7:15
rusty. We played in a game one day just
7:20
near Firthill, which is Partick Thistle's grand, and it wasn't.
7:23
We were only playing there. We were playing at a place that
7:26
overlooked it, which sounds quite decorative, but it's now
7:31
because it called the Coup. And we played the team in the
7:35
Scottish, Scottish Amateur Cup. We drew Bellshill, their pitch
7:42
was Immaculate, right? It was Immaculate grass and
7:47
Nets. I mean you never where we
7:50
played, you know, if you put Nets up, they only be there for
7:53
5 minutes, they'll be away, right?
7:54
So after we took them to this place called the Coup, the goal
8:01
posts were rusty, right? And in the goal, the rain had
8:06
washed away a lump, right? So right across the goal line,
8:10
it was this ravine thing like that.
8:12
No, no ravine, you're going to fall off.
8:14
But it was quite deep. So we took them there and we
8:17
beat them seven nil and there was only seven goals difference
8:21
between the teams. It was just a pitch.
8:24
I think it was unselfish. Just a hat trick that day 55,
8:29
no? So.
8:31
So explain to me. I've never asked you this.
8:34
You're a range of supporter as a boy.
8:35
Yep. You're living in flats at Ibrox
8:38
overlooking the Albion, which was the trend.
8:40
In England. How come he didn't end up at the
8:42
Glasgow Rangers and went to the Celtic?
8:44
They never asked, didn't they? Yep, but we played in the
8:50
morning. Glasgow schools, we won 8, three
8:52
or something and then in the afternoon was playing for the
8:57
YMYMCA, Possible Park YMCA. We were quite nutrious in for
9:03
producing players. We played there in the afternoon
9:08
and the Rangers guy happened to be at the game.
9:13
No, he happened to be at the game and they said to your
9:15
fellow, oh he played this morning, he scored three, he
9:19
said but I'm no sheer. The guy went what's your
9:22
problem? 15?
9:24
So then we we played the training ground, the Celtic and
9:32
we played their apprentice. We beat them 32.
9:36
So big jokes team is at the game and the assistant Sean Fallon
9:41
and big jokes said to the guy afterwards.
9:43
He says, oh, he said we liked that wee fat boy in the middle
9:46
of the pitch there which? Wait a minute, you're a midfield
9:50
player, then Dynamo. What are you, the engine room?
9:53
Yep, and you're still scoring goals from there.
9:56
Well, I scored one that day and we won 32 and they said well
10:00
we'll have them and they came up to the house during the week and
10:04
that was me signed for Celtic. Who came to the house?
10:06
Sean Fallon, Did he? Not job.
10:08
No. Now remind me, I've been a range
10:11
supporter. It's not not my memory banks.
10:14
What? What age were you when you made
10:15
your debut for Celtic? 17 They played the League Cup
10:19
tie which was 2 legged. First leg was at Celtic Park. 10
10:24
nil Hamilton Hockeys they were playing.
10:27
The second leg was at in Hamilton and that was sub, so
10:31
I'm sitting on the bench and it's 4 nil up.
10:34
Big joke. Took a chance and put me on for
10:36
the second-half. So I suppose that was the first
10:39
time you're in the first team. But the great thing for every
10:43
single one is that we're just young boys turning up for
10:46
training and in the morning full time.
10:49
The way that the players looked after us, the Lisbon Lions.
10:53
What year was that? Unbelievable 67. 67 They won it,
10:57
didn't they? Yeah, it was just after that we
11:00
went in for training. Danny Mcgrane and myself used to
11:03
meet Danny in the middle of Glasgow.
11:06
He was coming for from Chapel and I was coming for Ibrox.
11:10
He used to meet up and by the way, if he were nervous for a
11:13
game, imagine how he felt going training.
11:17
But the players, the players were were brilliant towards the
11:21
the young boys helped him out, joined in, even trained with
11:24
him. You think, do you think that
11:28
happens today? I mean that was important when
11:30
we ended up at Liverpool together.
11:32
Certainly me as a young player arriving and then you go through
11:35
the different stages and become a senior player.
11:38
I always, I always felt they encouraged us to reach out to
11:43
the younger players and try and guide them.
11:45
Not in an overt way, but certainly the occasional word.
11:48
Or maybe well. The the great thing for me about
11:52
going to Liverpool, I was there when I was 15 but when when I
11:57
moved to Celtic, the players in the dressing room.
12:01
But you think that's changed? I don't know.
12:03
I'm I'm not in the dressing room the way.
12:06
I think it's. Changed I think, I think the the
12:08
camaraderie in the in the dressing room at Liverpool was a
12:13
huge contributory factor to the success that they got of
12:17
everybody coming in. It was a great relationship for
12:21
in the dressing room and I just thought that was vital.
12:32
Would you rather have played now or when we played?
12:35
I don't think I'm obviously the the the money the boys earn to
12:39
that's something that you know, you can't say would not want to
12:43
earn, but I think we we had the we had the best times.
12:46
I. Think, I think it was, you know,
12:49
just camaraderie, just agree with with everything.
12:52
And there was there was no jealousy in any way, shape or
12:57
form in in the successful team we played in.
13:01
It was just all for one do. You know, do you know, when you
13:04
look back, we never got complimented.
13:06
There was always a feeling that, ah, you're a good son and you're
13:08
a good team. You're not like the players
13:09
we've had here in the past. That wasn't.
13:11
Ronnie was the biggest influence in my career ever, simply
13:13
because he was on me all the time and he was always demanding
13:16
more. We always made you feel, yeah,
13:18
you're a good player. You're not as good as the ones
13:20
we've had here before and you're a good team, but you're not like
13:23
the teams we've had here before. Did you ever feel that?
13:25
No. From them.
13:27
I never, I heard them say it, but the results tell you
13:30
differently. We were where we are because of
13:33
what went before us right at Liverpool.
13:37
So when we come in then it was, it was stepping up a grade and
13:42
the, the success he had then. I mean we, we, we went there
13:48
just after they'd won the European Cup.
13:51
It was taking a step forward all the time.
13:53
Did you never feel that the Well, we used to say it, you
13:56
would say it. I remember you say it, Bugsy,
13:59
Ronnie Moran, Bugsy, you're only happy when you're unhappy.
14:02
And the response was started with an F And the second word
14:07
was off, he'd walk away. I just, I just, I just loved
14:10
that attitude. I was just, I responded to it
14:12
because he was never it wasn't good enough.
14:14
There was always more together. And I think that drove us on.
14:17
And what you spoke about we when we went there, do you accept
14:22
that we were good senior pros passing the Liverpool weight
14:25
down the tree when we were sat in our late 20s?
14:28
I think it was positive, the contribution that we left.
14:33
I mean, we just went there. You don't know what to expect
14:36
really. When you walk in the door.
14:38
You yourself wouldn't expect that would come in the door
14:41
either. I mean, I remember when we used
14:43
to come into the dressing room, we just had normal suits on.
14:47
We never had any other suits. That was husband 18 suits or
14:51
anything. And I think you were still in
14:53
the Holiday Inn at that time and you came in with a mink coat on
14:58
and it was A and by the way, it was, I thought it looked.
15:03
Great. I bet you were the only one.
15:06
You come in with a mink coat on and the boy you're all sitting
15:10
in just before a game. What's that?
15:14
And you gave it a wee bit, I'll show you what it is and you
15:17
unbuttoned or unzipped it. Well, there you are.
15:20
And you opened it like that and it 2 initials on it GS right
15:25
both sides you went over but that never saw that again.
15:30
Only where I wore hands here. Only where my wife started to
15:32
wear it, I gave it to her instead.
15:34
No, I only ever wore that once, I think maybe twice.
15:38
Someone you must have wore it in your bed the second time.
15:41
No, you know where I wore it? I wore it to to go and watch
15:44
Everton a night game. I thought, well I'm going to
15:47
wear it, let's get it over and done with.
15:48
And I wore it to to watch Everton one night play and I got
15:51
dogs abused and I thought. You went to Goodison.
15:55
With a fur coat, so I'll take the bull by the horns.
15:59
When you were a player. Yeah, yeah.
16:01
Oh no, we we couldn't make it so so.
16:04
When you when we're talking about being good senior pros, do
16:07
you think your actions on a Friday morning helped the cause
16:12
or do you know what I'm going to say helped the cause or
16:17
diminished the cause, made it worse?
16:18
I think it just. Do you want to tell us what that
16:21
Friday morning consisted of? We jump on the bus we travelled
16:24
down before we started training. We were allowed a cup of tea.
16:28
Prior to the team meeting. Being the being the senior
16:31
member of the Scottish squad, yourself and bike Hanson sent me
16:36
in to make the tea and at the same time we had a relationship
16:40
with KP, which is United Biscuits and they used to give
16:44
us, I mean boxes of digesters and every Friday morning I used
16:51
to have. Sherman.
16:54
One chocolate free packet and two chocolate packets and I come
17:00
back with the tea and I go. There you go.
17:03
And then bring out the chocolate.
17:06
But the English never got any. So there's the English
17:09
digestive, and there was the jock ones, and chop ones were
17:13
the jock ones were the chop ones.
17:14
Yeah. So we've got the chocolate.
17:15
Yeah. You never worry about that.
17:17
Affection, team spirit and creating a divide between.
17:20
Tasty. Good, but didn't it good I.
17:23
Used to enjoy that. Oh, I used to make a meal.
17:26
Oh, look. How are yours?
17:28
Yeah, that's really nice. No, we, we had some
17:31
unbelievable, I've got to mention.
17:33
As well as well as just the the background staff, right?
17:37
They were really professionals, but they come and go.
17:40
They'd come and go, but as well, weren't they?
17:42
There was a thing that relaxed they.
17:45
Knew everything were up to. Aye, but there was no there was
17:49
no resentment for them at any way, in any way, shape or form,
17:52
as long as you go it right on the pitch.
17:54
They knew when we were going out and having a drink and and not
17:57
I'm sure. I think and they took that into
17:59
consideration I'm sure with the training.
18:01
Yeah, I think I went and you did.
18:04
We went to the equivalent of Oxbridge.
18:06
It was either Cambridge or Oxford.
18:07
It was it was the education we had anywhere in the world at any
18:11
time could not have been better than what we got.
18:13
For me in the football and life to have played under jobs team
18:18
and then you only other manager in club football was Bob
18:23
Paisley. You know, Bob won six league
18:27
championships. In was it not 7?
18:29
In in nine. Year was it not 7?
18:31
No 6 and. Nine, you have something to do
18:33
with that as well, right? I think your goals and and
18:36
you're cutting. Supply, no matter that, no
18:38
matter he's 66 out of nine. Plus you throw in a few
18:44
Europeans and the happiest they ever looked were a trophy in his
18:48
hand, which when you made that fantastic gesture at Wembley
18:53
when it was his last season, he said.
18:55
Bob, you go up the steps first. And had we had to push them up?
18:59
No, no, no, no, no. Yes, yes, yes.
19:01
On your no, no, yes, yes. But you just had to push them up
19:04
there. You took that upon yourself and
19:06
that was probably one of your better decisions and that was
19:09
brilliant. And said it wasn't room with you
19:10
for the best part of 10 years. Oh well, that's maybe we spoke
19:14
about it the night before. Do you remember before the
19:19
European Cup final, the night before the European Cup final in
19:22
Rome, Our last one, my last one, we're in the room, there's a
19:25
noise coming from next door. Someone, someone's television
19:30
was blaring and you're talking but you're still angry because
19:34
someone's, you think someone's attic trying to keep us awake.
19:37
So I'm banging on the wall and he eventually forced me to get
19:39
up and go and knock on his door. Whoever it was, no response.
19:43
Come back. I'm not watching the telly.
19:45
You're fast asleep and offence. I got off to sleep.
19:48
We're leaving the following morning to go down for
19:50
breakfast. We'll come out the room and the
19:52
room where the noise that was coming from that person was
19:55
coming out of the room. Do you remember the story?
19:58
Yes, as we come out the door. I've gone.
19:59
Oh boss, your room the noise was coming from last night was Joe
20:04
Fagan. I said we couldn't get to sleep.
20:05
Your telly was blaring. They said, oh, sorry boys.
20:08
We opened a bottle of Scotch, second bottle of Scotch last
20:11
night and we had to finish it and that was the night.
20:13
So I've got our manager keeping you and I awake the night before
20:17
European Cup final. That's right.
20:19
Yeah, sorry, boys. Open the second bottle of Scots.
20:20
Had to finish it. Jeez.
20:23
And another thing I've got to remember as well.
20:25
We've got to show for a break. You, you and I are.
20:28
Because we were the really good pros, senior pros.
20:31
Try to teach them all the right. Things that's when you get
20:34
injured. You couldn't play against
20:35
Argentina for Scotland. Was it that one?
20:38
Yeah, that was that Maradona making his debut.
20:42
He spoke about Maradona earlier. He played.
20:45
He was. 17. He picked the ball up in his own
20:48
18 yard line right about there, ran the full length of the
20:51
pitch, went through about 3 or 4 series as well.
20:55
Seen that before against England.
20:56
And then hit the post. Or seen it afterwards.
20:59
Anyway, going back to we're in Israel, we're in bed, big
21:03
outcomes, banging on the door. We've been in bed for an hour at
21:05
least, banging on the door. You've got to get up.
21:07
You've got to get up. But why?
21:09
What's happening? They're all fighting each other.
21:11
This is the week before a European Cup final.
21:14
We'd gone out for dinner and we used to always go out for dinner
21:15
together. And then the young lives would
21:17
go off and, and we'd run and come back to the hotel, have a
21:19
drink, go to bed. So we're in bed, Big gal wakes
21:22
us up. You've got to get, you've got to
21:24
get up because they're all, they're all fighting each other
21:27
and there's blood everywhere. It's afternoon.
21:29
I don't think you bother getting out of bed.
21:31
Just felt like that. So I'm out of bed and I get to
21:34
the lift and trying to press and the lift stopped working but I
21:38
can hear we'd be on the 674 but I can hear them singing the song
21:44
from MASH. Suicide is painless now.
21:47
It's all our team mates in the lift covered in blood, black
21:51
eyes, cut lips, all saying they're all mates again now.
21:54
So when eventually the lift does work they come up, the doors
21:56
open and I'm looking at them. I just went, I went to my bed
22:01
and that was proper teams for it.
22:02
They had a fight with each other over some daft idea.
22:05
No. That someone had.
22:07
Somebody fell off a chair, didn't they?
22:09
And. They were blaming.
22:10
It and they thought somebody punched them.
22:11
Yeah. And they started fighting and
22:15
then the when the press lads used to travel with you then and
22:20
when they travelled they went to see one of the directors.
22:26
Mossie, Sid. Mossie.
22:27
Mossie, Sid. See, Mr Mossers, I think you'd
22:32
better go up to the square. It was just along the road a wee
22:36
bit. There's something going on there
22:39
and they went, they fancy said they'd be causing trouble again
22:43
and they went. It's the players.
22:52
There's a modern player like Ronnie would say, have a look at
22:55
yourself in the mirror some. Does the modern player do that?
22:57
I'm not talking Liverpool in particular.
22:59
I'm. Just talking.
23:01
No, but that's what you say, by the way, for struggling.
23:04
Come on, I know the manager's going to get the blame.
23:06
No, no, forget the club, it's just any club the manager will
23:11
get. Yeah, that's blame.
23:12
But see if the players used. To get the blame, the players
23:15
have the blame. See.
23:15
If they look in the mirror, they'll see the blame.
23:19
Yeah, but we, we when we had a bad game, a bad result, the
23:22
players would get it. Ah, no, they don't.
23:25
It's it would appear that the the coach's tactics are wrong,
23:27
his selection's wrong, substitutions are wrong, his
23:30
preparations wrong. It seems as if all the focus
23:33
goes on to the manager today and what he's not done and the
23:37
players would appear to escape relatively free.
23:42
Can I ask you what is it you'd like dislike most about the
23:46
modern game? People feigning a smack in the
23:49
face. Simulation.
23:51
Aye. Cheating.
23:54
Do you think you'd have gone down that road?
23:55
Well, you think you would have been guilty and accused of being
24:00
someone. If you're playing today, that
24:01
would. They accuse you if you don't go
24:03
down. Throw themselves to the ground
24:05
every every. Opportunity if you don't go down
24:08
so stay home and then if somebody does hit you, you.
24:11
Wouldn't have done that. No, because.
24:13
You I. Would have stayed up I.
24:15
Your personality and your attitude to thought of someone
24:21
accusing me of being a diver, You wouldn't have done that.
24:24
I mean, sometimes there's no contact, but that sometimes it's
24:28
because you see it coming and you take evasive action, but
24:32
you've got to be stupid and stand there and let somebody
24:34
break your leg. I don't think so.
24:36
You've never got you've got one bad one.
24:38
At my face. Yeah, I was.
24:40
First, I'll tell you what happened.
24:42
I used to be ugly. I can, I can remember the ball
24:48
was pinged from, would it have been Brucie?
24:51
It came from the back, it was pinged and you've come towards
24:54
it and you flicked it on and Kevin Moran was waiting there
24:58
without. I don't think he meant it, but
25:00
he's doing that. And you turn them smacked into
25:03
his elbow and you went down and you got up and you're on one
25:06
knee. By the time I got to you.
25:07
I was first to you. I said, I said you were like
25:09
that. I said you're OK.
25:10
I said he said, yeah, give me, give me a I'll be fine.
25:13
And I pulled your hand away and I went, you're not fine.
25:16
You're not fine. And your whole face was
25:18
concaved. And I think I remember I came to
25:21
see you in hospital and you just had your operation.
25:24
And they put a metre, you know that it's like a rope of gauze.
25:28
They put a metre into your face. I've been told a metre.
25:31
Have they still got it in there now?
25:33
It's still in. No, your face was up here.
25:38
I remember, oh, there is no metre, no beer metre.
25:42
I know we're dipping, dipping in and out of our time at
25:46
Liverpool, but I just look back on that and it was just and what
25:51
did I have? Best part of seven seasons.
25:54
We knew if we were on it, we knew if we turned up and we were
25:57
on it, we're going to win. That's how I remember it.
26:01
If I say to you, what was your favourite game at Liverpool,
26:04
what was the thing you won that that gave you the most pleasure?
26:11
I think for all the wrong reasons, Hillsborough is the one
26:16
that's the biggest thing. That's because we're the
26:23
supporters, because of what it meant to the people.
26:26
And I think it was a fantastic illustration at that time that
26:32
when we needed help, they were there for us.
26:35
And at that time they needed help and so did we.
26:39
But we, we, they needed help and it was up to us to provide that
26:43
support for them. So what it meant, what it meant
26:49
to the people in Liverpool party, Obviously they were Tonys
26:57
in the final, which was unfortunate for him to play.
27:00
I think everybody was there. Was a whole city at the time,
27:02
wasn't it? I wasn't just the Reds.
27:04
But I think the sympathy was way Liverpool.
27:09
So that is a for me. I kind of think a game where it
27:15
was more important that no, because of the result, no,
27:19
because you hate to say, well we won the the Cup final.
27:23
So just just to go and give them something right that they've
27:28
given us. What about a game you played in?
27:31
One of the main reasons why I had to move through Celtic was
27:37
because European football we were never going to win.
27:40
They go to a cup of semi finals, but never I never thought Celtic
27:45
were going to win another European Cup in Nah tenure
27:50
there. So see, if I'm going to go
27:52
somewhere, I want to make sure they're going to ever go in
27:54
Europe because you know yourself in Glasgow, you can't have a
27:58
tour of the city when you win something and it was always
28:01
craving for a tour of the city. Well, you.
28:04
Got plenty of them. Aye, and we got a couple so but
28:09
for me did you it was perfect, perfect any.
28:12
Apprehension. Any nerves about filling
28:14
following Kevin filling his books?
28:16
No, Kevin and Josh were brilliant.
28:18
The great partners served together.
28:21
They were another stage in their life, a Liverpool Football Club
28:25
with successful life, with the success that they got.
28:30
They just won the European Cup. Kevin was wanting to go so.
28:35
I think I know it. Wasn't as if it wasn't as if the
28:37
club were moving Kevin on. Kevin chose to move, which is
28:42
fair enough. But.
28:44
He did. It was a fantastic servant.
28:46
I know your personality, but people listening and watching
28:48
this might not. How would you think they saw you
28:51
when you walked into that addressing at Liverpool?
28:53
You've been quite, quite shy. Not shy, but keep your own
28:57
counsel. You go to keep your own counsel
29:01
until you find out what's going on.
29:02
Don't he. When you get into a strange
29:05
place that's I thought that's the best way to be.
29:10
And then Big Handsome was already there.
29:13
He came in April. He never spoke.
29:16
No, I know that he started speaking when you came in.
29:19
So there was three years and then we were the superior race
29:23
in the restaurant. Till to explain that one till
29:26
someone. Came in.
29:27
That set his back about three years.
29:29
So we used to, we used to tell Neely, Mark Lawrence and Tomo
29:34
just, you know, know your place. We're the jocks.
29:36
We're the master race. You could tell them anything.
29:38
Yeah, go on. And we did.
29:42
The times we had were just, I wish I could ruin it all again.
29:47
That camera togetherness. Sometimes, sometimes we did fall
29:52
out. We're playing at Coventry and
29:56
we're three nil down at half time.
29:59
We've come in and your head's boiling, my head's boiling.
30:03
And I've said to you, any effing danger you can get all the ball
30:07
and get started and your your heckles are up.
30:10
You're telling me any effing danger you can win a tackle and
30:13
get the ball to get started. With every sentence we got
30:16
closer and closer and then people got between US.
30:19
And if you remember, the three of them stood there and watched
30:23
it. Never, never made any attempt.
30:25
Joel, Ronnie and the boss never made any attempt to stop us
30:30
arguing. They thought if we're arguing,
30:32
that sends a message to the rest of them.
30:34
Remember that we didn't do any good because I think we still,
30:37
we still lost three, one or 432 or something.
30:40
Oh no. But that's that's their
30:42
psychology. But that's what I'm saying.
30:44
You look at the football preparation now for games and
30:48
it's all technology, right? People, video analysis and all
30:54
the rest of it. They didn't, they, they never
30:57
had that. They had everything in there,
31:00
right? They didn't need to look on a a
31:02
thing to go. This is this, this is this.
31:04
This is something else. They were fantastic.
31:06
Well, tell them, they books, they they books that they used
31:09
to keep a a note of everything. Everybody that trained what the
31:14
date was, what the time was for, how we trained, who trained, who
31:18
never trained, what the injuries were.
31:21
They were. They were way before their time.
31:23
I mean, look at all whoa, right, Somebody could walk across the
31:26
the pitch and he'd go, he's got he's got hamstring injury or
31:30
he's got this or he's got something else.
31:33
How did you sport that? He could sit, I know he could
31:35
sit in a stand. He would say he could sit in a
31:37
stand. Someone goes down and he said
31:39
he's done that. He's got a three weeker there.
31:41
He's a He was a man of few words, wasn't he A.
31:44
Man of few words, but by the way, that brain must have been
31:47
stored there. It was unbelievable.
31:50
The seven years went too quickly.
31:51
It was just I wish I couldn't do it all again.
31:55
All I was just I'm I was on Anfield a few weeks ago and you
31:59
know, obviously pictures like a carpet and this news that your
32:02
stand cop's been developed big newsstand the main stand.
32:06
And I said to myself, I'd love to have actually said on camera,
32:09
I'd love to be 25 for 90 minutes again.
32:13
Steven Jenner was in an interview as well, he said.
32:15
I wish, I wish I could go back to you 25 or something so
32:20
everybody's the same because it was such a good place to play
32:23
then. But I think we played at the
32:25
best time because because of the camera, agreed.
32:29
Because there's no video cameras, there's no phones that
32:33
can go click. And we knew that that AI, that's
32:36
going to be even worse. Did you, did you ever have a
32:39
moment like I did in the very first game?
32:42
I was playing W Brom. So I I arrived trained Monday,
32:46
Tuesday off Wednesday. Tomo and Terry Mack took me out
32:49
on a Tuesday night. I think we ended up somewhere
32:51
around here. Shorts Hall half on the
32:55
Wednesday and Thursday, so the Monday, Tuesday, Thursday
32:58
involved walking around Melwood job ground.
33:00
Melwood 3 quarter sprints. Sydney aside, finish and go home
33:06
Monday, Tuesday off Wednesday, same on Thursday.
33:08
Friday next to nothing. We've travelled down to
33:11
Birmingham because we're playing W Brom at West Brom on a
33:15
Saturday at 2:45. I'm in the dressing room.
33:18
I'm 15 minutes away from making my debut.
33:20
I've said to Joe Fagan, I said, Joe, can I have a word?
33:25
So yes, Sam, what is it? And you know, Joe used to you
33:27
had to sort of speak loud because he I don't know if he
33:29
did it on person, but he spoke in such a quiet, respectful way.
33:33
So I think I've got, you know, I've got a sympathetic ear here.
33:36
I see with Joe. I said, look, I've been here a
33:38
week and no one said to me, how does he want me to play?
33:41
And he raised his voice, which he when he when he when Joe
33:44
raised his voice, you knew you were in trouble.
33:46
F off. We've spent all this money on
33:49
you and you're asking me how to play football.
33:51
That was the first and last time I ever asked a question at
33:54
Liverpool. And also it's first.
33:57
And you're all laughing at me. His.
33:58
First point His first point of contact would be Ronnie as well.
34:02
He says Ronnie, you just pay whatever.
34:04
Come and listen to this and he. Doesn't know where they play.
34:08
Doesn't how to play football. Do you ever have a moment like
34:12
that? No, no, no, no. 5th Amendment.
34:15
You were too cute. You never asked.
34:18
I've got a Thoris one as well and I tell people this, so I've
34:22
been speaking behind your back. If we were having a meeting
34:25
about anything, 20 of us, there'd been 19 people say yes,
34:31
I agree with that. There'd be 1 dissenting voice.
34:34
Who would that be? What was the meeting about?
34:36
It could mean anything, it could be anything.
34:38
There was always one shop steward.
34:40
It's pretty vague. Is that?
34:41
Is that pretty vague? No, it could have been anything.
34:44
All right, I'll see it happened more than once.
34:45
Then there's one dissenting voice.
34:47
Which was yours? No, I remember.
34:49
Were you ever shocked Stewart in a previous life?
34:52
Remember when Hitachi came in at first?
34:55
Yeah, I remember this. Yeah.
34:56
Right. And one of the boys said, Oh no,
35:00
that's not good. That would be if it's money,
35:02
they might, you know, be somebody will get it'll.
35:05
Be goal scores all the time. You know the badge kisses one
35:08
who run to the copper. Wave, it'll be all the big ones
35:11
and we went no, it's no. And we go a table put in the
35:14
lounge, right, for the sponsor. So there's a table for four.
35:19
They did a man of the match, but it wasn't the same one every
35:22
week. It was routine, right?
35:24
So everybody got a chance. Just the thinking, it's never
35:28
going to be Clem or Bruce who get man of the match playing at
35:31
Anfield, is it? No, that's why we shared it.
35:34
That's why they shared it for everybody, so everybody can join
35:37
in. I mean one of the best.
35:39
But you got more than most then. Oh you, you had a carriage full
35:42
of telly. Is that what you're trying?
35:43
To say no biscuits. And toys thanks to our whiskey
35:56
partner Saint Andrews Three fingers whiskey, the legendary
36:00
measure. Something that's been on beef
36:03
with me for I never 40 years. I've never stopped playing.
36:09
You were never involved in free kicks.
36:11
You were told to go and get away.
36:14
So we've got a free kick. Edge of the box.
36:16
Jimmy Case and me are Sammy Lee and I, We're going to take the
36:20
free kick and we're deciding what we're going to do, and
36:23
we'll walk away from the ball. You've come over and said no,
36:25
no, go away, Kenneth. Go.
36:28
You've been told more than once go away.
36:30
You're not involved. So I'd turn and walk away.
36:33
Jimmy would turn away and Sammy would turn away and you'd run
36:36
and take and take the free kick and put it over the bar.
36:39
Put it by the post. You've never learned, did you?
36:41
Yeah, you never learned. I saw one that went in.
36:44
When? About two weeks ago I saw it.
36:48
You scored a goal from a free kick that you weren't meant to
36:50
be involved in it. Was against tips with you at the
36:53
Annie Roden. Seriously.
36:54
Yep. Can't remember that, but always
36:58
remember. The good thing is I could see
37:01
any game you wouldn't remember, so I remember the.
37:04
Goals. I remember the goals.
37:06
I remember European Cup final where I stuck you in.
37:10
But the reality is quite different.
37:11
Truth is quite different. Well, that's what I'm saying.
37:13
I can't believe when you you mentioned that you say it was a
37:16
pass. It was an inch perfect pass and
37:19
you had the easy job of just chipping a goalkeeper.
37:22
Either a bit 3 or 4 inches away if you're talking the boy.
37:26
No, I thought it was just. I thought to me.
37:30
The ball came out of the sky from the right hand side.
37:33
I chest it down. It's gone a wee bit too far for
37:35
me. My recollection is I've got to
37:37
go for this and I can see two of the Bruges Blairs conversion and
37:40
I think I'm going to get smashed here.
37:42
And I think I actually closed my eyes and I just thinked off my
37:45
foot and went perfectly for you to do the easy bit, put the ball
37:48
in it. So that was the first European
37:50
Cup, the second one. What do you remember about the
37:53
game? I guess from Madrid in Paris?
37:57
The markings were rock hard. Yeah, yeah, they lined them.
38:00
But do you remember before the game there'd been an issue with
38:03
the sponsor? And if you see the picture,
38:06
Yeah, Umbro. Yeah, it's mud to have a a some.
38:09
They wouldn't allow you to wear it.
38:10
Before a European Cup final, we're not concentrating on the
38:14
game. There's a some sort of commotion
38:16
going on and I think Ronnie was going around cutting bits of
38:18
tape to stick over number and we go out to line up to our picture
38:21
taken. And do you remember the first
38:24
2020 25 minutes of that game We could have played without a
38:29
ball. It was.
38:29
It was meaty. Kamachi or something?
38:32
Yeah, meaty. Tasty stuff.
38:35
Alan Katy scored, didn't he? And by the way, he scored your
38:41
cheer and then you think, whoopsie day.
38:43
Not there. Anyway, yeah, he scored that
38:45
game. He scored the the one in the
38:47
apparently in Roma. You know, I get asked the
38:50
question, you know, because you the new game, the new way of
38:53
playing, how fullbacks get involved.
38:56
I said, well, I played in three European Cup finals and
38:58
fullbacks scored. Our fullbacks scored and opened
39:01
play in two of them. And people say they never, they
39:04
could never work us out because the two full backs played
39:07
further up the field than me and came into midfield and play.
39:10
We always seemed to have an extra body in there.
39:12
So I was, I was sort of forming a triangle with me, Alan Hanson
39:16
and Tom or me, Alan Hanson and and Mark Lawrence and and
39:20
whatever said the ball was and I'd just shuffle over in case it
39:22
broke down. And the full match are always
39:23
getting involved. Yeah, more so we always have an
39:26
extra man and that's why we dominate the ball so much.
39:28
And then then we come back to the do you remember what
39:31
happened after that game? Phil, Neil and I got pulled out
39:36
to be drug tested. So of course, summer's night,
39:40
you can't pee drinking beer worse than you can do.
39:43
And when we come out of there, after we've given our sample,
39:47
you've all buggered off, the bus is gone.
39:50
There's no member of the staff waited to see that we're OK.
39:54
We've come out to Blackened Stadium.
39:57
We've got our medals in our pockets.
40:00
Don't know where we're going. Is it that way?
40:01
Is it that way as a city centre? Anyway, we're walking the
40:04
streets. No taxi would stop.
40:06
So I said what we're going to do, I'll tell you what we'll do.
40:09
We'll stop a police car. So this police fan came along
40:12
with a blue light flashing. I'd jump out in the middle of
40:15
the street. Do this, the back doors spring
40:18
open, the guys jump out with their bats.
40:20
I've gone. No, no, no.
40:21
I've got my meddler and I'm pointing back to the stadium,
40:24
played football. This is a mega played football
40:27
and of course in the back of the van and took us to the Meridian
40:29
in the city centre otherwise, but that's Can you imagine doing
40:34
that to modern players today? Go and get yourself drug tested
40:36
and we'll see you back at. The hotel.
40:37
They'd have a phone anyway, haven't they?
40:40
Yeah, it. Doesn't matter, they just phoned
40:41
somebody. The modern player can't get
40:43
himself out of a car park without putting his.
40:44
Stuff he can use your phone, you only go to use the.
40:47
Phone, isn't he? Yeah.
40:47
That's how it was. That's how basic it was.
40:50
We were left to our own devices. That's a.
40:53
Shame. So that's it's a shame.
40:55
We made it. So that what do you remember
40:56
about the game? Wasn't he much a game, was it?
40:59
Well, the three we played them weren't great because then
41:01
Bruges won. I don't think they, they didn't
41:03
want to take us on Real Madrid. People would be surprised to
41:07
hear this. The Real Madrid of that time or
41:09
Spanish football at that time was quite violent and
41:11
aggressive. They, they thought they could,
41:14
they could upset us physically. But we had a few people that
41:16
enjoyed that part of the game. And then the third game.
41:19
Do you remember about Rome? I tell you, we should have won
41:21
that game in 90 minutes because we actually scored the away
41:24
goal. Yeah.
41:26
And then the semi final Roma beat Dundee United and it was
41:31
disputed one of the goals. So we could have been playing
41:35
Dundee United now. But then how could he have?
41:39
How could he pick out the ground to play the final at the start
41:44
when there's one of the team in it?
41:45
That's not right, is it? Do you remember the semi final?
41:47
Because John Hanson were responsible for me getting a lot
41:51
of unjust abuse. Or Romania.
41:54
So I'd accidentally got involved with a guy in the first game, we
41:56
go to play the second game. A guy never played in the second
41:59
game, did he? He must have got over involved.
42:02
Yeah, so in the second game. Is that why it's called tackle?
42:06
Football's like that in those days.
42:07
That's my defence, your honour. But so in the first game a guy
42:10
gets has a problem. In the second game, we arrive at
42:14
the airport and we've got all the banners up with my name on
42:16
it. And obviously I don't understand
42:17
what's on the banners. So I'm sitting on the bus.
42:21
We normally sat together on a bus and on an aeroplane and I'm
42:26
sitting here and I'm by the window.
42:28
For some reason I'm not with you, but there's someone banging
42:30
on the window and eventually I turn around and it's a guy who
42:34
must be 7 foot tall and he's got a head like a medicine ball and
42:38
he's got a uniform on and I've gone.
42:41
BA, you're a big man. And he's doing this gesture to
42:43
me. He's going to pull my eyes out
42:45
and I've gone. No, no, no, no, it's not me,
42:47
it's him and appointed Alan Kennedy who had a curly hair and
42:50
a moustache. So he's gone round the bus and
42:52
he's given it to him. But when we turn up to play the
42:54
game there's all the banners in the stadium of what they'd like
42:57
to do to me. And it was either you or Hanson
42:59
worked out every time, but maybe 3 or 4 warm up balls every time
43:04
I was on the ball and a warm up was getting booed.
43:07
So you, I think it's more your style than the begins.
43:11
All the balls were being passed to me.
43:12
I had more more touch to the ball than anyone else.
43:15
And it was just one gigantic crescendo of booing, which made
43:18
it a bit uncomfortable for me. Was that your idea?
43:21
Don't know. Yeah, yeah.
43:23
It was a good one though. I know who I was.
43:25
Rushy picked 2 out, didn't he? Rushy had a couple, yeah.
43:29
But even, you know, going into that environment, did you ever
43:33
believe that we could have lost that game do.
43:36
You always think you're going to lose, don't you?
43:39
I mean even the. You even bruised say that again.
43:41
I didn't hear, did you? You think you're going to lose,
43:44
right? If you think about losing, no,
43:46
they're going to lose. Well, you're lying in your bed
43:49
in the afternoon, you're saying, or at night time before the
43:52
game, you're going no need to try and do this.
43:55
So need to watch this need to be careful.
43:57
I never see you never plotted it, no.
43:59
No, it was only I could be two people.
44:03
I could have a game of football. I could also if it wasn't
44:05
working out I could maybe go down a different Rd.
44:10
Used to run the game through my mind before it.
44:13
I've never thought of this before.
44:14
Tell me if I'm talking absolute nonsense.
44:16
As a striker, it's all about you being terribly creative and I'm
44:20
going to score a goal or create a goal for someone, which was
44:24
I'll come to that question next. So that's in your head.
44:27
Does that be right? It's going to be creative,
44:28
create something, score a goal. Oh, you don't cause a goal?
44:32
For me in midfield, it'd be I've got a, I've got a, you know, one
44:35
way or another, I've got a start To be the boss in this area
44:38
where it's yours was always about being creative.
44:41
So if you misplaced passes, there's no being creative.
44:45
No, but if you misplaced them. Then you have your thoughts in
44:47
it. You always think the worst.
44:50
I've never thought, I always thought going to win this.
44:53
So you know, understand what then if you never did it, you
44:57
don't understand the way you admire just.
44:59
Oh, I'll. Question why the preparation
45:01
was. Question for it.
45:02
OK. Is that a hard?
45:03
One you're the most Yeah. Yeah.
45:05
Well, I I you might answer it truthfully if I put it in a
45:09
couch it the right way. You were an absolute superstar.
45:14
Never played the never You never played the part of a superstar
45:18
off the pitch. On the pitch you were as great
45:21
as you were. Could you have been better?
45:24
Is there anything you look back on your career and think if I'd
45:26
done that a bit more? And for the young guys who are
45:31
watching today, would you be so bold to describe yourself as a
45:36
player? No.
45:37
If not, I will. The most important thing for me
45:42
was a team for myself, for myself.
45:46
You did what you did. You did, but you thought you
45:48
were good at. It was up to you to try and work
45:51
things out. I mean, even with Rushy there,
45:56
it was a godsend for us because he was, he was quick and
45:59
intelligent and I bet he's not been told too often he's been
46:03
intelligent. And then but you'd somebody to
46:07
play with and people of their own the same line as your the
46:14
same channel. Listen, do what you're good at.
46:19
You play, you've got to mention the doc as well you've been good
46:21
for. He wanted to run forward all the
46:23
time. Rush was with that.
46:25
He wanted to do that, I wanted to and and Rush did that, which
46:28
would free up. So you, the modern term,
46:33
relatively modern, always a false #9 that's what you were.
46:38
I don't see your Zen false about it.
46:41
Well, no. Describe it then.
46:43
Well, somebody's got to drop off to get there.
46:45
Because you see, I'll tell you how I saw my job.
46:48
I get the ball sometimes my head was down and your elbows are out
46:52
and and and I could see your socks and I'd just go the and
46:56
then you would twist some your way, twist your way out of a
47:00
tight situation. So I don't know if I could get
47:03
the ball to you that would give especially in the box.
47:07
That's all I thought I'll get to his feet whenever I got it last
47:10
third. I'm going to get into his feet
47:12
and I know that the centre half now in trouble because feet as a
47:15
lunge. I'm not saying you're a diver,
47:17
but if you have a lunge. Didn't want to be a punch by a
47:21
guy. You're too cute for all.
47:22
That yes, but anyway when you debut as player manager.
47:26
I I've just heard, I've just heard the nod from the director.
47:30
We have to wind up now, can't be going down the road of me
47:34
getting sent. Off by a thing on television
47:37
called editing, right? So it might be worthwhile to
47:41
edit. This Yeah, I'm I'm I'm guilty as
47:43
charged. That was that's that's.
47:46
I lost. Did you last only?
47:47
Pet, let me tell you the story there.
47:49
I've been as quick. I've been talking to you.
47:50
Last only pet. Not that long.
47:52
So let me tell you this is this is true.
47:54
Going out the door, I'm playing walking out the door Easter Rd.
47:59
The buzzer goes, we're walking out the to play the game.
48:02
Walter shouts for me. Walter says, Oh, by the way, I
48:05
meant to tell you they've got a player had it done to United.
48:07
He called Kirk. If he gets a chance, he'll do
48:09
you. So I'm going out and I say, what
48:11
number is he? What number is he?
48:13
He couldn't tell me. So when I go out on the pitch, I
48:15
know that Alan Ruffson goes. So he I know he's not Kirkie,
48:18
but any anyone that I'm 10 could be Kirkie.
48:20
So I'm on my toes. And I thought that what you said
48:23
an hour ago, retaliate first. Yeah, it wouldn't matter because
48:29
you were head on with the guys. So the numbers, well, when I
48:32
when I can remember those days, the numbers are on the back of
48:35
their shot. So it wouldn't have made any
48:37
difference. It wouldn't have made any
48:38
difference. But no Billy.
48:40
Kirkwood's. Yeah, right.
48:42
A Crucible's knee. George Mccluskey's name is.
48:46
No made him fair. He used to play for Celtic,
48:49
right? Can I just, you weren't the, you
48:51
weren't the encourage, were you? I I.
48:55
I was I was over excited that day.
48:58
Emotions got these? Are over the top no over
49:00
excited? Oh no, can I just say it's been
49:04
great. I've enjoyed it.
49:05
I hope we could. We could sit for a whole day
49:08
and. Hope people that watch it.
49:10
No, you've been great and thanks for doing it for me.
49:12
This is my first attempt. I hope.
49:15
I hope I've not been too too difficult for you.
49:17
Never a problem. We had great times, didn't we?
49:22
I think I think you may get a few people right then and saying
49:24
they're jealous. No thanks.
49:29
Thanks. Cheers mate.
49:30
Cheers. Great emotional.