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S2 Ep 6: The Mixing Bowl · Attachment Matters Podcast

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to Attachment Matters.
• 0:03
  This podcast is a conversation between two mothers who are
• 0:07
  passionate about the
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_03: subject of attachment.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_03: This is Rose.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm Stoic Mom.
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  Both of our families ended up entangled in the confusing world
• 0:17
  of gender and
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: identity,
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  SPEAKER_01: following very different routes to get here.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: Through this experience,
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: we each discovered how in parenting our children,
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: we are offered the opportunity to grow ourselves up.
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  Our hope is to offer greater insight into how to strengthen the
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  relationship
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  SPEAKER_03: between parents and their children,
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  SPEAKER_03: despite all odds.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: In this episode,
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  we explore what maturity looks like as Rose outlines the fruits
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  of the integrative
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: process.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: We distinguish between suppressing our emotions and tempering them,
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  SPEAKER_01: and acknowledge the pervasiveness of immaturity in today's world.
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  SPEAKER_01: We emphasize that maturity cannot be taught or shaped.
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  SPEAKER_01: And of course,
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  SPEAKER_01: we offer new ways to see and respond to immature behavior,
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  encouraging faith in nature's design and its yearning for
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  maturity to unfold for
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  SPEAKER_01: all of us.
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  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: Hello.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: Good morning.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_03: Good morning.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_03: How is the weather over where you are?
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we had a hot day yesterday.
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  SPEAKER_01: Luckily, it will cool off later in the week.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's too early in the season for it to be that hot for us.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_03: That's interesting.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like we're on the opposite.
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  I feel like we're on the opposite poles of weather experiences,
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  of climate.
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  SPEAKER_03: We are cooler than normal.
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  SPEAKER_03: and very, very, very wet.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_03: We could use some of that.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I'm sure.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_03: I'm sure we could use some of your sun.
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  SPEAKER_03: Well, what a perfect introduction to our topic today.
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  SPEAKER_03: You're hot and you're cold.
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  SPEAKER_03: Both and.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yes, exactly.
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  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_03: So welcome back, everybody.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_03: This is episode six of season two of Attachment Matters.
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  SPEAKER_03: And it's great to be here, as always.
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  SPEAKER_03: Last episode, we really dove into
• 2:41
  deeper,
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  I would say,
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  into that second aspect of Dr.
• 2:47
  Gordon Neufeld's model of maturation.
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  SPEAKER_03: So we started with emergence,
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  SPEAKER_03: we moved on to adaptation,
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  and then had a second episode on adaptation where we really
• 3:01
  looked at the concept
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  SPEAKER_03: of aggression and futility and
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  SPEAKER_03: And took a look again at this idea of the traffic circle of frustration.
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  SPEAKER_01: And paying attention to what you see.
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  SPEAKER_01: Sorry.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Noticing.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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  Really hoping that listeners were able to walk away with a very
• 3:30
  concrete takeaway
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  SPEAKER_03: of frustration.
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  understanding whether it's their child's or their own eruptions
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  of attacking
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  SPEAKER_03: energy,
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  SPEAKER_03: of aggression,
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  SPEAKER_03: of quote-unquote losing one's temper,
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  SPEAKER_03: which is where we're going to be moving at this point,
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  SPEAKER_03: talking about this idea of tempering or mixing of emotion.
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  But really being able to see those moments of an eruption of
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  attacking energy,
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  as fundamentally being caused by this primal emotion of
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  frustration when something
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  SPEAKER_03: is not working.
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  SPEAKER_03: There's frustration in the system.
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  SPEAKER_01: The frustration needs to find a way out.
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  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
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  SPEAKER_03: So...
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  Some of the key takeaways of that that I think are sort of a
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  bridge to talking
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  SPEAKER_03: about the third aspect of this model of maturation.
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  We're going to be talking today,
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  starting to talk about what's called the integrative process.
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  And what I took from our last episode that just felt like a
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  thread that can carry
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  SPEAKER_03: us right through into this conversation is
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  SPEAKER_03: is going back to this idea of being able to trust in nature's design.
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  SPEAKER_03: That,
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  SPEAKER_03: you know,
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  SPEAKER_03: our design is too mature and that maturation will unfold,
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  SPEAKER_03: you know,
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  SPEAKER_03: as conditions are conducive.
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  SPEAKER_03: And a lot of what we talk about in terms of
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  the fruits of maturation that I think are more commonly kind of
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  taken for granted
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  SPEAKER_03: almost in our culture.
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  SPEAKER_03: When I look at the material around the integrative process,
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  SPEAKER_03: that's really what we talk about,
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  SPEAKER_03: what we see as the fruit of maturation.
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  SPEAKER_03: That's what maturity looks like.
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  SPEAKER_03: Is that what you're saying?
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  SPEAKER_03: Right.
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  SPEAKER_03: Right.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
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  and it's interesting because I think where we've gone wrong in
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  some senses is that
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  SPEAKER_03: we expect to see those things in the immature,
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  SPEAKER_03: and we try to go direct at them.
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  SPEAKER_03: And if our child doesn't have these qualities from a very young age,
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  maybe even before being even four years old or in that
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  preschooler age group,
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  SPEAKER_03: we start to think we have to shape their behavior.
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  Can I just say a few more words about that,
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  just add some more language around that?
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  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_01: When you say go direct at them or that we need to shape their behavior,
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm hearing a couple things.
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  SPEAKER_01: You mean teach the skills.
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  SPEAKER_01: Is that what you mean by go direct?
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  SPEAKER_01: We need to teach them how to be mature.
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  SPEAKER_01: We need to shape their behavior.
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  SPEAKER_01: When I hear that, I hear, excuse me,
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  behavior modification or rewards and punishments or external
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  behavior drivers to
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  get our child to behave the way we think or expect that they
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  should be behaving at
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  SPEAKER_01: this point.
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  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yep, absolutely.
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  So just coming back to that kind of fundamental place of as we
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  learn this material –
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  SPEAKER_03: around the integrative process.
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  SPEAKER_03: It calls us to, again, trust in the design, trust in the process.
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  SPEAKER_03: Um,
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  SPEAKER_03: and that I feel like,
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
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  SPEAKER_03: carries right over from talking about this idea of that,
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  SPEAKER_03: the adaptive process as well.
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  SPEAKER_01: And can I, I know I keep interrupting you.
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  I just,
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  because this is something that I reference quite a bit and I
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  just,
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  I want,
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  um,
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  SMP audience to hear what you're saying and associate it to
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  when I use the word faith.
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
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  SPEAKER_01: I think there can be...
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  SPEAKER_01: Faith can look a lot of different ways,
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  SPEAKER_01: but initially for me and what I think could be accessible to all of us,
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  no matter the belief systems that we have when it comes to the
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  larger reality of
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  SPEAKER_01: things...
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  can we have faith in nature's design and trust that maturity is
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  meant to unfold?
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  SPEAKER_01: Um,
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  SPEAKER_01: and I know faith is a belief in something that you can't see,
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  SPEAKER_01: but I do think we have plenty of evidence to support this,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: that this,
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  SPEAKER_01: this,
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  SPEAKER_01: this,
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  SPEAKER_01: if we are,
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  SPEAKER_01: uh,
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  SPEAKER_01: like bringing consciousness into this,
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  can we comfort ourselves with faith in nature's design and
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  allow that to help us to
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  SPEAKER_01: rest,
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  SPEAKER_01: right?
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  And to not be so impatient maybe,
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  or feeling like we need to shape things.
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  We need to force the maturity and that that is something that
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  is not even in our capacity to do.
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  Can this faith help us to let that go and focus on what we can
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  do to support the
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  SPEAKER_01: conditions for unfolding?
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  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
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  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely.
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  SPEAKER_03: So kind of letting go in that pressure to teach...
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  SPEAKER_03: a child to be patient or teach a child to have courage,
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  all the things that we're going to be talking about with the
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  integrative process,
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  SPEAKER_03: that that is actually a fruit of a development,
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  a development mental process that will unfold over time without
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  us having to teach
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  SPEAKER_03: it.
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  SPEAKER_03: Or shape it.
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  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
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  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
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  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
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  SPEAKER_03: So trust in nature's design or having faith in nature's design.
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  SPEAKER_03: And also just,
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  SPEAKER_03: again,
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  SPEAKER_03: another thing to set the stage for our conversation today,
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  going back to the last episode where we talked about that this
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  frustration is in
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  SPEAKER_03: the system and it needs to come out.
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  So this idea that these primal emotions or the feeling our
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  emotions is critical.
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  SPEAKER_03: that emotions need to be expressed,
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  SPEAKER_03: that emotions need to be felt,
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  SPEAKER_03: and that this,
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  SPEAKER_03: again,
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  is one of the primary drivers of the development of the
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  integrative process,
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  SPEAKER_03: which essentially requires us to be able to feel that
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  SPEAKER_03: one thing and then add another.
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  SPEAKER_03: But of course we can't do that unless we are able to,
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  SPEAKER_03: you know,
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  SPEAKER_03: feel and express our emotions,
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  SPEAKER_03: right?
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  So it calls upon us again to have that trust and faith that
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  some of these emotions
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  SPEAKER_03: or feelings that we may be uncomfortable with as parents,
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  SPEAKER_03: that we need to allow our child to have them.
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  And that this is part of a bigger process of developing the
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  capacity for mixed feelings,
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  right?
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  SPEAKER_03: And through that, growing up.
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  SPEAKER_01: You said a ton right there.
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  SPEAKER_01: I know.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we haven't even gotten started.
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  SPEAKER_01: This is just setting the stage.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I've just got some things on my mind with what you said, yes.
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  SPEAKER_01: But maybe they'll come up later.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I hold my thoughts.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm just thinking of how threatening some of that emotional,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: what that looks like in our kid,
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  SPEAKER_01: how that can upset the parent,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  and we want to change their experience because we're
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  uncomfortable with the
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  SPEAKER_01: experience that they're having.
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  SPEAKER_01: for whatever reason,
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  SPEAKER_01: and there are many,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: that it could be for why that might be uncomfortable for us.
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  SPEAKER_01: Things like anger,
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  SPEAKER_01: temper tantrums,
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  SPEAKER_01: frustration,
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  SPEAKER_01: sadness,
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  SPEAKER_01: disappointment that can be difficult for parents to witness.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, exactly.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_03: So what this calls us to,
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  SPEAKER_03: and we'll start to dive in here,
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  SPEAKER_03: is to not take the cut it out approach.
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  That when we have a child who's being moved by some of those
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  difficult emotions,
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  SPEAKER_03: that the answer is not to cut them out,
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  SPEAKER_03: but rather that
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  SPEAKER_03: In moments of less intensity,
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  SPEAKER_03: and we're going to get to this,
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  SPEAKER_03: that over time,
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  there's going to be a development of the prefrontal cortex that
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  allows for two
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  SPEAKER_03: different feelings at the same time.
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  SPEAKER_03: And that in itself is the process by which children can see more than one
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  SPEAKER_03: perspective or can temper their impulses.
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  SPEAKER_01: So you mentioned cut it out.
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  SPEAKER_03: Can I mention one more?
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm also thinking of the rescuing.
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  SPEAKER_01: rescuing them from difficult emotions.
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  Or I'm also thinking of sadness and how we can either rescue
• 14:04
  them from sadness or I
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  SPEAKER_01: guess we go to the cut it out approach,
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  SPEAKER_01: what you have to be sad about.
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  SPEAKER_01: But their sadness can be so threatening for us.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_03: We're jumping back in here after a couple technical difficulties.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_03: So let's dive into the integrative process.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_03: Let's dive in.
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  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_03: So...
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  SPEAKER_03: Let's talk about the fruits.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_03: And this is kind of a long list.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, interesting.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_03: We're starting with the fruits.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, let's start with the fruits.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_03: So the fruits of the integrative process.
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  SPEAKER_03: And again,
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_03: like I said earlier,
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_03: we often see these,
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  SPEAKER_03: even in the dominant culture,
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  SPEAKER_03: and just kind of take them for granted as...
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  SPEAKER_03: As aspects of being an adult or being mature.
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  So fruits would be the ability to be balanced and stable and
• 15:10
  self-controlled.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: Go ahead.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: I don't love that word, but that's all right.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe we'll talk about it.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_03: The ability to understand fairness.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_03: So essentially this idea of justice,
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_03: that there's two sides to a situation,
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_03: there's two sides to an experience or a story,
• 15:37
  and the ability to understand the other's perspective in any
• 15:42
  given situation.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_03: What an interesting way to word that.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: I find that
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: Almost.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: Understand fairness or justice,
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  meaning there are two sides and you're able to put yourself in
• 15:59
  the other person's
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: shoes and understand where they're coming from.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 16:04
  So to not just consider your own experience,
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  but to also consider the other person's experience.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_03: Or vice versa,
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_03: to not just,
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_03: deny your own experience and only consider the others,
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_03: to be able to have my perspective and consider the other's perspective.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: So holding conflicting opinions.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: Or viewpoints.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, viewpoints is a great way to say that.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 16:35
  So another fruit of the integrative process is the ability to
• 16:38
  work towards a goal.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_03: So what someone might refer to as like delayed gratification.
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  So I'm able to put in the time and effort towards something
• 16:50
  that I'm not going to
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_03: be rewarded by instantaneously,
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_03: that I'm putting this in over time to reach an outcome.
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  SPEAKER_03: Dedication.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: Or persistence.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I love,
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: delayed gratification is a big deal that it's,
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: I see less and less of in the world.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_03: To be able to be patient when frustrated.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_03: Hmm.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_03: To be capable of courage.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_03: Hmm.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_03: Capable of courage.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: And go ahead.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just wondering about defining courage just a little bit.
• 17:50
  Because I'm not sure that we all have a conscious definition of
• 17:54
  that and understand that.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: Courage isn't an absence of fear, but actually a response, right?
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: And a tolerance of fear that you can do it anyway.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: Feel the fear and do it anyway.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 18:12
  It's the ability to,
• 18:14
  and essentially what Neufeld talks about is that courage is the
• 18:20
  mix of,
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_03: of desire and alarm.
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  SPEAKER_03: So the desire to do something mixed with a healthy sense of fear.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_03: So it is that you can do it despite the alarm, despite the fear.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: So in and of itself, courage is an integrated experience.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_03: So to even be capable of it is a fruit.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_03: It's a fruit of maturity, a fruit of the integrative process.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's going to give me lots to ponder on in the coming days.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: Because I use the term
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: risk tolerance often.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like I consider myself a risk tolerant person.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: Would that be courage or is that something different?
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_03: Hmm.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm going to, my brain's going to be working on that one.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: Let's, let's go in.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, totally.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_03: And my brain's starting to work on it too.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_03: I'm starting to think about it.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um,
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_03: Another one would be to be capable of cooperation.
• 19:58
  So I just take this and I think about it and I'm like,
• 20:01
  oh my gosh,
• 20:02
  giving children group work.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_03: Why?
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_03: Why do we do this?
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: To go direct and to teach them cooperation.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_03: You must cooperate, you know.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_03: So to be capable of cooperation,
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_03: it's like you have to be able to hold your own and consider the other.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: Integrated.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_03: Correct.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_03: To be considerate, this is a fruit.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that seems tied back to that understanding fairness and justice.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: Patient when frustrated.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 20:46
  Being able to be considerate of another person or considerate
• 20:50
  of a situation.
• 20:51
  And that kind of takes us to the next one,
• 20:53
  which is the ability to appreciate context.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_03: So this,
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_03: again,
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_03: is a fruit of the integrative process,
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_03: a fruit of the more broader construct of maturation.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I like the word appreciate, to be able to appreciate context.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: When I think of situations where it's not appreciated,
• 21:23
  the word that comes to my mind is intolerance or being
• 21:27
  threatened by the context.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: Some people can't tolerate that complexity.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: And that would be
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: Immaturity then, right?
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's the inability to tolerate it.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_03: A symptom or, you know, a manifestation of immaturity.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: So the beautiful thing is also that it's never too late.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_03: So here's another one for you.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_03: The ability to be civilized.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: What does that mean?
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I'm going to just kind of... Okay.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, my mind goes a few different directions.
• 22:23
  I can see that that also needs to be defined because people are
• 22:26
  going to have
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: different ideas of what it means to be civilized.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_03: You know, honestly, this just springs to my mind.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_03: This is not Neufeld here.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_03: This is just me.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_03: I think about the Ten Commandments.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_03: Thou shalt not kill.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_03: how do we,
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_03: we're not living in a society governed by impulse,
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_03: okay,
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_03: or governed by will,
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_03: but the ability to temper,
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_03: to hold on the one hand and on the other hand.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_03: There's conflicts of rights.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_03: There's conflicts of responsibilities.
• 23:14
  what do I dedicate,
• 23:16
  you know,
• 23:16
  how do I be an individual while also caring for,
• 23:22
  um,
• 23:22
  others?
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_03: it's,
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_03: this is just me trying to flesh this out that if we are untempered,
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_03: if we are non-integrative,
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_03: we are ruled by impulse.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_03: We are ruled by will to power essentially, um, versus, um,
• 23:46
  you know,
• 23:46
  having structures for civilization where we can coexist with
• 23:51
  one another.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: Cause that's kind of where,
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: what came to mind for me is like manners,
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: abiding by the structures of the culture,
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: which are going to vary from culture to culture,
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: what is considered civilized.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm hearing also just this capacity to coexist,
• 24:19
  which goes with all of these other fruits that you've mentioned
• 24:25
  are all going to
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: contribute to that capacity to coexist.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 24:30
  And again,
• 24:31
  wow,
• 24:32
  we seem to be seeing a real,
• 24:34
  excuse me,
• 24:34
  diminished capacity to coexist.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_03: And I think,
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_03: not to jump too far ahead here,
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_03: but boy,
• 24:48
  when I took the intensive two or intensive one course and
• 24:52
  learned about this
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_03: construct of maturity and the symptoms of immaturity,
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_03: it was such an eye opener for me.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it just, everything I saw took on a different light.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_03: Everything I saw took on a different light.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_03: And yes,
• 25:15
  I feel like some of the most pervasive issues that we face
• 25:20
  culturally at this
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_03: moment in time come from a pervasiveness of immaturity.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_03: That people are not growing up.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that sounds like a gift to me, that awareness.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think that so often we chalk this up to personality, right?
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's just who he is or, right?
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: We write people off because they...
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: they're not coexisting.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: that's,
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: or they struggle to coexist or we struggle to coexist with them,
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 25:59
  but if we can understand that this is something that unfolds
• 26:05
  when the conditions
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: are right and,
• 26:08
  then we have more access to grace for where others are in their
• 26:14
  unfolding process.
• 26:15
  And understand that somewhere in their past,
• 26:19
  right,
• 26:19
  there have been impediments to that.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_03: Isn't that amazing?
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, I love that.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it is amazing.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_03: It's an amazing gift and it's an amazing...
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if the word freedom is correct or just opening...
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_03: to...
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_03: the way that we can offer that grace to others and to ourselves.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_03: And to our children.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, really.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_03: And truly.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_03: That's what I was going to say next.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_03: Many of whom are simply immature,
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_03: not just age,
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_03: but even as,
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_03: the 25 year old,
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_03: the 30 year old,
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_03: we can start to see these things in our parents.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_03: We can start to see these things in our siblings.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_03: We can start to see these things in full grown adults.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_03: who simply have never become integrative.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: And can I just reinforce that going direct,
• 27:19
  which I think will be our impulse often when we hear this and
• 27:24
  we start diagnosing
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: people as immature,
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 27:30
  I love the idea of grace rather than feeling like there's
• 27:36
  something we need to do
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: Or teach, maybe, or call out about somebody else's immaturity.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: And that that's not going to contribute to more maturity.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_03: Again,
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_03: what we see,
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_03: really informs what we do,
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_03: how we respond to people or situations once we say,
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_03: huh.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_03: I don't see the fruits of integration or the integrative process here.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_03: I don't see this person considering others.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_03: I don't see this person being able to work towards a goal.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_03: How do we respond to that?
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_03: And once we see the root being a stuckness or an immaturity,
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_03: a lack of the integrative process unfolding,
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_03: the way we work with that is going to be very different.
• 28:35
  If we have an idea of how to work with it,
• 28:39
  which is,
• 28:40
  I imagine,
• 28:41
  where we're headed here,
• 28:43
  right?
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: Some alternatives to going direct or shaping behavior.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: Because I do think that can be,
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: like we've mentioned before,
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: a parent can feel alarm when they...
• 29:00
  see a lack of these fruits or these fruits of integration
• 29:05
  missing and then think,
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: oh my goodness,
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: my child is not mature or not maturing.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: What do I do?
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just going to name a couple more things and then kind of dive.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, we've still got more fruits.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_03: Just a couple more.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, exactly.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_03: This is a nourishing tree.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:30
  Yeah,
• 29:31
  each of them could be talked about probably for the entire
• 29:33
  episode.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_03: Really?
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_03: Really?
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_03: What does this look like?
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_03: How does this play out?
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_03: Where do we see examples or lack of it?
• 29:39
  You know,
• 29:40
  my goodness,
• 29:41
  what a rich terrain for just how deep we could go with each
• 29:45
  episode.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_03: little sentence.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_03: Truly.
• 29:49
  So I'm just going to name these last ones,
• 29:54
  the ability to understand irony or paradox.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_03: So again, kind of keeping context in mind for the irony.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm going to tell you right now,
• 30:06
  I thought about this one when I heard it mentioned on this list
• 30:10
  of fruits and
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_03: this connects directly for me with the next one,
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_03: which is to be able to think beyond black and white,
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_03: to get beyond black and white thinking.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_03: And I know for me,
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_03: for whatever reason,
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_03: it could be my lack of integrative process or just kind of my template.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_03: I say this a lot in these episodes.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_03: I just, sometimes I can't get the irony.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_03: I can't, I, I, I take something literal.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_03: I'm very gullible.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's just however, you know, my psychology is kind of
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_03: that, you know, sometimes these things just go right over my head.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_03: It can be confusing at times, you know, I can relate to that.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_03: Like,
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if this is an example of irony or not,
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_03: but I had a,
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_03: I was at a baseball game,
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_03: my son's baseball game last week and against a pretty big rival.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_03: And the, the,
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_03: my son's coach is brothers with the coach of this rival team.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_03: So over time we've developed more of a warm relationship,
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_03: less of a tense relationship with this other coach.
• 31:23
  And right before the game,
• 31:24
  he approached me and he just says straight faced.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_03: So I heard that you have decided,
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_03: in order to help us,
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_03: you're just not going to cheer for your team today.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_03: And I, my reaction to him was who told you that?
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 31:43
  And my partner sitting there just like hits me on the arm like
• 31:46
  it's a joke,
• 31:47
  you know.
• 31:49
  But it took me I like had to figure I had to ask her like,
• 31:52
  what did he mean?
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_03: And what was the joke like I just so finally it was like,
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_03: oh,
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_03: he was saying that I'm going to refrain from cheering.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_03: To help him,
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_03: but my,
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_03: I just have these moments of just this black and white,
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_03: literal kind of flat thinking.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_03: Despite being a high IQ gifted person,
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_03: I just,
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_03: this is some other level of processing this input,
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_03: that sometimes goes right over my head.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: I could stay on this one probably for the rest of the episode.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm serious.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: Because I, oh yeah, you've got my brain a,
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: it's engaged.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_03: Well, go for it.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_03: What comes up for you?
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_03: Let's go there.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_03: Whatever it is.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 32:41
  I can so relate to how you're describing yourself and have –
• 32:46
  and I'm thinking of
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: personalities and I'm thinking of the context I grew up in,
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: which was amidst rampant sarcasm,
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like, whew, we were good at it.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: And still, I could struggle with that literalism.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm thinking of figurative language and how in Jungian psychology –
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: And this is something I've really actually been working at directly.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: And yet I do think it's also unfolding for me as we're speaking.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, oh, okay.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: I just,
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't mature enough before to have access to symbolic language,
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: which is the language of the unconscious,
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: when we think of integration and union psychology,
• 33:39
  that's really what we're trying to do is integrate the aspects
• 33:43
  of our unconscious.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: And to do that,
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 33:47
  you're going to be much more effective at it if you can
• 33:53
  interpret symbolism or
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: think symbolically,
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: Which is, you know, the opposite of literal, right?
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: And very challenging.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: And my new appreciation for metaphor and symbolism.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: And now I feel like I'm... It's almost like something I can...
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: turn on and off, right?
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's like,
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: I want to go into a symbolic lens right now and,
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: and,
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: and can play with it a little bit.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: And it's, it's fun and engaging and hard.
• 34:27
  It takes,
• 34:31
  it's,
• 34:31
  it's,
• 34:33
  as somebody who has typically found things,
• 34:35
  you know,
• 34:36
  pretty easy,
• 34:38
  right?
• 34:38
  A lot of things when it comes to,
• 34:39
  especially to like academic learning,
• 34:42
  this one is,
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's so much more challenging.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it, and I'm having to be, I'm going to go back up to the list, right?
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: I have to be persistent and dedicated to it and not give up,
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: because it's,
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: it's that challenging.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: This is, this is rich.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:10
  yes territory yes yes i agree i agree and um you know the last
• 35:20
  i'm just going to
• 35:21
  mention this last on the list is being able to mix well with
• 35:24
  others which we've
• 35:24
  kind of um talked about already in terms of civilization you
• 35:28
  know being able to
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_03: coexist um
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_03: And,
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_03: a bridge from that,
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_03: and I kind of want to move into talking about the process itself,
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_03: and this is going to take us two episodes,
• 35:40
  so there's going to be some granular detail or examples that we
• 35:45
  might not get into
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_03: today,
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_03: we might get into at the next episode.
• 35:49
  But just to kind of break down this process,
• 35:52
  what does it mean to mix together?
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 35:58
  I was going to ask you to please expand on that because I'm
• 36:01
  guessing this is very
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: different than just being nice.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_03: Correct.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_03: Correct.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_03: So the image,
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_03: first of all,
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_03: which I think will,
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_03: inspire some Jungian,
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 36:15
  this is like probably comes right out of Jung that Neufeld uses
• 36:18
  to talk about the
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_03: integrative process is the mixing bowl.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_03: The mixing bowl.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_03: And what he talks about is that
• 36:28
  When we're talking about mixed feelings or the ability to,
• 36:32
  let's say,
• 36:33
  self-regulate.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_03: So we're getting that self-control,
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_03: that kind of triggering potentially language that was like,
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_03: what do you mean by that?
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_03: Let's,
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 36:46
  how many times have we talked about on these episodes when I am
• 36:50
  frustrated as a
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_03: parent,
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_03: when I'm reacting as a parent?
• 36:54
  And remember how we always have to kind of walk that line
• 36:56
  together of it's not a cut it out.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_03: It's not a cut it out.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_03: So what he talks about is.
• 37:06
  The integrative process is not a question of imposing our will
• 37:15
  on our impulses.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_03: Okay?
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_03: It is not about will versus impulse.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_03: What do I mean by that?
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know why this just feels so important to me.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe because I've struggled with it for so much of my life.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 37:36
  When I all of a sudden am so mad at my partner,
• 37:39
  okay,
• 37:42
  why didn't she do this?
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_03: Why doesn't she do this right?
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_03: for so much of my life,
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_03: until I came into the Neufeld body of work,
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_03: I tried to impose my will on that person.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_03: on my feelings of anger.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_03: I should not feel this way.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_03: I should be able to contain this.
• 38:05
  I should be able to,
• 38:06
  um,
• 38:07
  what's wrong with me,
• 38:08
  you know,
• 38:09
  that I'm having this reaction.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_03: It was just a battle of will versus impulse.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_03: It was a battle of will versus emotion.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_03: I wanted to cut out the anger.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_03: I wanted to cut out what I came to understand is frustration.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_03: I just wanted to go away.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: Because, can I ask, why?
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: Why did you want it to go away?
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_01: Why was that so important?
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't want to have conflict, number one.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_03: I also felt like I was being unfair.
• 38:39
  My reaction was so big and it was disproportionate to whatever
• 38:46
  small thing was going on.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_03: I just churned in this place of will and impulse.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_03: Let's just put it that way.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_03: And the impulse, what I mean by that is like,
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_03: Being moved by frustration,
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_03: being moved by frustration,
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_03: but on the mental or the cognitive level,
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_03: I labeled it as anger or,
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_03: whatever it was.
• 39:09
  So because I was blaming her,
• 39:11
  you know,
• 39:12
  blame,
• 39:12
  blame,
• 39:12
  blame,
• 39:13
  blame,
• 39:13
  blame.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_03: So.
• 39:18
  It took a time for me to learn this and then be able to back
• 39:23
  away and say,
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_03: something's not working.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_03: To get this map of understanding, something's not working.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_03: I am frustrated.
• 39:30
  And be able to have more of that relationship with being moved
• 39:37
  by that emotion.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_03: So it was...
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_03: It wasn't imposing my will necessarily.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_03: It was just, you know, getting this deeper understanding.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_03: I am frustrated, but I also.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_03: So where the integrative comes in.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_03: is that we're not cutting out the impulse.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_03: In this case, maybe it's my impulse to attack because I am so frustrated.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not cutting out that impulse.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_03: I'm actually adding in a conflicting feeling or a conflicting thought.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: Or capacity for context.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, is that... Sure.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_03: So I am angry, but I also care.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_03: And that mix can kind of stop that attack from unfolding.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: It tempers.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_01: It tempers.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: It tempers.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's what temper means.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_03: And like Dr.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_03: Neufeld,
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_03: I think is like,
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 40:52
  this is part of his life's work is to reclaim this
• 40:55
  understanding of the word
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_03: temper.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_03: I've said so many times on this podcast, I lose my temper.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_03: What does that mean?
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_03: We lose the mix.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_03: We lose the I'm angry temper.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I care.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_01: And you've called it purity of emotion.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: So we've only got one of them.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_01: We're not tempering it with something else.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_03: And in the immature and or the non-integrative...
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_03: That's the only possibility.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_03: The only possibility is one at a time.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_03: The purity of emotion.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_03: One emotion at a time,
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_03: one thought at a time,
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_03: one opinion at a time,
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_03: one belief at a time,
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_03: one perspective at a time.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_03: That's the only thing that's possible.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, that references back to the list.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: We're not mixing.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_01: We have one at a time.
• 42:06
  And if I'm not mistaken,
• 42:08
  and maybe I'm jumping ahead here,
• 42:10
  that is a necessary phase.
• 42:14
  That is how we start to develop our sense of self is through
• 42:18
  that one at a time.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: And we have to experience those in their purity, right?
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: to be able to later mix.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: You can't mix something you don't have.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_03: You said it perfectly.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_03: And that is exactly what needs to be laid out clearly.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_03: The process of integration is about mixing without blending.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_03: And that means exactly what you just said.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_03: It's this idea of togetherness without the loss of separateness.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 43:01
  So he gives this example,
• 43:03
  which I find to be profound at the sensory level.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_03: As it turns out,
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_03: when a baby is born,
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_03: in order to develop the sense of sight,
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_03: of vision,
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_03: it's one eye at a time.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_03: Hmm.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't know that.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 43:27
  And it's you know I don't know the nitty gritty of this but
• 43:30
  it's a developmental
• 43:31
  process sensory development that unfolds over a period of weeks
• 43:37
  or months in a
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_03: newborn.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_03: They see out of the right eye.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_03: They see out of the left eye.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_03: They see out of the right eye.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_03: They see out of the left eye.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_03: Until both can combine.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_03: And that's what gives depth perception.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, how profound of a metaphor is this?
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, there's so many.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_01: Life, nature is riddled with these metaphors.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: That help us, I think, find that faith that you're talking about.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: I am part of nature.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: This is how nature works.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I love that.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: That depth perception comes from being able to see with both eyes.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: to mix the vision of both eyes.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's incredible.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that gives me goosebumps.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_03: I'm total goosebumps right now.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_03: I'm total goosebumps.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, that metaphor is like a mic drop.
• 44:38
  It's just like,
• 44:38
  let's just leave it there and let the ripples go out,
• 44:41
  okay?
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_03: Because when we take it to the cognitive and emotional level,
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_03: This is what we're talking about.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_03: And it is the development.
• 44:57
  And again,
• 44:57
  this again,
• 44:58
  in a good way,
• 45:01
  we've learned this through neuroscience.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_03: It's become more popularized in our culture,
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_03: even if it lacks the context of this model of maturation.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_03: We talk about the prefrontal cortex, I think, very commonly now.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_03: And that is the mixing bowl.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_03: That is the structural mixing bowl of the brain.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_03: And so when we talk about the cognitive and emotional,
• 45:29
  we are talking about the ability for the brain to hold more
• 45:33
  than one thought or
• 45:35
  opinion or perspective at a time and hold more than one feeling
• 45:40
  at a time.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_01: Which I imagine is what makes us distinctly human.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's a huge, yes.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_03: Oh,
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_03: and that in and of itself could just be such a,
• 45:52
  we could have an entire podcast just on like why artificial
• 45:56
  intelligence will never
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_03: be human.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_03: Like this is the piece they're missing.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_03: One of the pieces they're missing.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_03: They can't feel.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_01: So in Jungian terms, there's the feeling function.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yes,
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: which is much richer than,
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_01: emotion is something different than the feeling function.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_03: And Neufeld makes that distinction,
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_03: and it's such a hard one for me,
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_03: and I think many people who are students of the Neufeld Institute,
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_03: to really tease apart,
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_03: but he does make that distinction,
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_03: that emotion is what moves us.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_03: But feeling is our ability to register the emotion,
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_03: is to actually be self-conscious about an emotion.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_03: And other things.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_01: There are lots of things that are part of our feeling experience.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_03: Cold, hot, tired, awake, hungry, needing to go to the bathroom.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_03: These are all feelings.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_01: As well as these integrative fruits that you talk of, right?
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: These are also feeling experiences, many of them.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_03: And many of them, as we've discussed and will continue to discuss, are
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_03: are a feeling of inner conflict or emerge out of that inner conflict.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_03: So the integrative process,
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_03: so number one,
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_03: I just want to say,
• 47:40
  so it is this capacity for our prefrontal cortex to register
• 47:43
  more than one feeling
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_03: at a time.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_03: It is developmental in that it needs to unfold.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_03: It is,
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_03: physiologically cannot begin to unfold until five to seven years old.
• 47:59
  So this is where the richness of Dr.
• 48:01
  Neufeld's preschooler material shines.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_03: And why it helped me so much at that age is
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_03: To understand what my children could or could not be capable of.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_03: They were simply unable to not be impulsive, for example.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_01: Can I get some clarity around there?
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_01: When you say Dr. Gordon Newfields.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_01: Preschool material.
• 48:29
  You're talking about material for grownups talking about the
• 48:34
  capacity of preschoolers,
• 48:35
  right?
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_01: It is not like a preschool curriculum or something.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to clarify that.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much for that clarification.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_03: Correct.
• 48:45
  It is like the Making Sense of Preschoolers course that he
• 48:49
  offers through the
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_03: Neufeld campus where this is the essence of what he teaches is –
• 48:58
  We cannot expect preschoolers or the immature who essentially
• 49:05
  continue to have the
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_03: prefrontal cortex of a four-year-old.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_03: They could be 70.
• 49:11
  They could be what he calls the teenagers he worked with in
• 49:14
  prison who had
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_03: committed crimes,
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_03: and they scanned their brains,
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_03: and they saw that the prefrontal cortex was the size of a four-year-old.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_03: Okay?
• 49:28
  Can I again distinguish here between maturity and an integrated
• 49:33
  prefrontal cortex
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_01: and intelligence?
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_01: You can be a very intelligent person and lack this integration.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so people can...
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_01: to be,
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_01: mature is maybe not the right word,
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_01: but it could be confusing,
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 49:53
  to engage with somebody who's very intelligent and yet lacks
• 49:59
  these fruits that you
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_01: described.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_03: And we get this very confused at any age.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_03: We definitely get it confused with children.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_03: A gifted, cautious, intelligent young child, very verbal...
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_03: does not mean they're mature,
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_03: does not mean they don't need to depend on us,
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_03: does not mean that they're functioning with integrative function.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_03: And when I was parenting my young children,
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_03: when they were at this age,
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_03: that four-year-old age,
• 50:39
  I saw this just rampant among my subculture of peers of taking
• 50:46
  a highly verbal
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_03: child and
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_03: And treating them like a small adult.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, yes.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say guilty, right?
• 50:57
  My daughter was highly verbal and probably got,
• 51:02
  I'm sure I did some of that.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_01: But honestly, I did a lot of that.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_01: I did a lot of that as an educator, I would say.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_01: I just treated them like little people.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 51:17
  I don't know if we want to go down that rabbit hole,
• 51:20
  but I also want to acknowledge that
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of the moms, I think moms are attuned to this.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_01: I hear this often among moms in the community,
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_01: moms I've worked with in my coaching,
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_01: that their child is 22 but has the maturity of,
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 51:41
  And usually they go with young adolescents,
• 51:45
  11-year-old or a 16-year-old,
• 51:47
  right?
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_01: They recognize the precociousness.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_01: She's very smart, but her maturity is not there.
• 51:55
  And so I think this is going to be very helpful information to
• 51:58
  know what to do with that.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think, again, our impulse then is to go direct.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_01: There's something I need to do or not do to shape,
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to say shape that maturity,
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_01: because I know that that's not going to be the recommendations or
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_01: In this model.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_03: Or punish the immaturity as well.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_01: I guess that's, yeah, that's what I mean by shape is like.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 52:32
  Using external drivers to create,
• 52:34
  to try to get that maturity to come online.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_01: Teaching.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_01: Rewards or punishments.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much for mentioning that.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_03: And I think those moms are being very intuitive.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_03: I just want to say that.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_03: That's extremely intuitive.
• 52:54
  You're on the right track when you notice,
• 52:57
  here's what I see that's present.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_03: And here's what I see that's lacking.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a sense of responsibility even.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm the mom, right?
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_01: So it's my job to make sure that my child matures.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's also just that social expectation around that as well.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yep, exactly.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 53:24
  So a couple more things I want to mention just around the
• 53:28
  prefrontal cortex.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_03: So it is a spontaneous but not inevitable unfolding.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_03: Essentially, this ability...
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_03: to register more than one feeling at once, okay?
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_03: So just like you're saying, it's not taught.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_03: It's not forced.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_03: It can't be shaped.
• 53:44
  We are going to be in a situation where it is about the
• 53:47
  conducive conditions here.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_03: For a... Can it be faked?
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_01: Here would be my question.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_01: Can it be faked?
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_01: Can somebody appear mature?
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if the faking is willful.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_01: Or if it's part of the teaching is what I'm wondering, right?
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_01: Can you appear mature because you've been taught how to appear mature?
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_01: You can act.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_01: You can act mature.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_01: Act mature.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_01: Without the actual integration being there.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_03: Without it being intrinsic from the inside out.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_03: It can be meeting an external expectation or performance.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_01: External locus of control.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe performance is a better one than acting.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_03: I can perform.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_01: Or faking.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think I said fake.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_03: If I'm smart, I figure out how to be valued.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_03: This goes back to our attachment roots discussion.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_03: If I want to matter,
• 54:50
  if I want to be significant and I know what those adults or
• 54:53
  those peers see as
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_03: being of value,
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_03: I can perform to meet it.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think I did that.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_01: I knew how to play the game.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_01: I could play the game.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_01: I could perform.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_03: But underneath, the fear is I don't – if I was really –
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_03: Is this imposter syndrome?
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_03: Messy.
• 55:17
  Yeah,
• 55:18
  like if I was actually messy and myself,
• 55:21
  you know,
• 55:22
  myself,
• 55:24
  I would not be loved.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_03: I would not value.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_03: I would not, you know, because I would be rejected.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 55:33
  Because I've performed to meet those expectations over such a
• 55:36
  long period of time
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_03: that I fear showing the reality.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 55:42
  yeah this sounds like imposter syndrome it also sounds yeah
• 55:47
  we're definitely
• 55:47
  getting into Jungian territory here with the persona right
• 55:51
  that's what the persona
• 55:52
  would be which is necessary you know but how much access do you
• 56:01
  have to yeah the
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_01: mixing bowl yeah
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 56:11
  So what he talks about is that this is something that has to be
• 56:14
  exercised to grow.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_03: In other words,
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_03: little by little,
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_03: non-threatening,
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_03: not big,
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_03: intense emotions,
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_03: but these small bubblings of I feel this and I feel this,
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_03: where we see for ourselves or for our child that
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_03: Where there's the purity of that emotion is shifting.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_03: And there's more, honestly, discomfort.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_03: There's more conflict.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_03: It's not like everything's happy and great.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_03: It's actually discomfort.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_03: Inner conflict.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_03: I was just going to say.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_03: You can't just be happy anymore.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_03: I have an other hand.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 57:07
  I was wondering if that was going to come as a fruit,
• 57:11
  is this capacity for inner conflict.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_03: It's the means and the end.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_03: It's the means and the end.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_03: Ambivalence,
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_03: cognitive dissonance,
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_03: all these things that I think are shamed in our,
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_03: maybe it's the broader culture or like the culture wars,
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_03: to be honest.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 57:32
  What we're actually yearning towards,
• 57:35
  the ability to have that inner conflict,
• 57:41
  is critical.
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_03: So just one quick example.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_03: I've talked about baseball,
• 57:49
  and I'll probably continue to talk about it just before
• 57:51
  Warren's because it's such
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_03: a big part of our lives.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_03: This spring, my parents came to visit.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, they come to visit every spring.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_03: They come to watch my sons play baseball.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_03: And we had planned the visit around three games.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, they're going to be here for three baseball games.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_03: Well, before they came, one of those games got rescheduled.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_03: So now it's two games.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_03: One is the third and fourth grade team.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_03: The other one is the fifth and sixth grade team.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_03: However, my fourth grader has been playing up.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_03: So he's been playing on both teams.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_03: So they go see the third and fourth grade team on a Saturday.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_03: My 10-year-old son had just been sick.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_03: He got injured.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_03: It was a good game for them to see.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_03: He persevered.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_03: He worked at it.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_03: He stuck to it.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_03: He got through it.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_03: He did a great job.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_03: But it was a hard game.
• 58:51
  So then we're like,
• 58:51
  well,
• 58:51
  we still have Tuesday's game where both of our sons are going
• 58:55
  to play.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_03: And lo and behold...
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_03: The coaches of the fifth and sixth grade team,
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_03: after warm-ups,
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_03: right before the game's going to start,
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_03: tell the fourth graders who've been playing up,
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_03: there was two of them,
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_03: only one of you is going to play today.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_03: And so the decision was made.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_03: It was communicated to the children.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_03: And then my son tells me, I'm not going to play today.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_03: And he is heartbroken.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_03: And I am heartbroken.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_03: And I am super frustrated with the coaches.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_03: But there's nothing I can do.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_03: So my parents are sad.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_03: You know, they're not going to see him play.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_03: Because at this fifth and sixth grade level, you get to steal bases.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's just a different level of play.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_03: He's a fast runner.
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_03: He excels at that level.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_03: He really shines, even though he's younger.
• 59:44
  So it just so happens my sixth grade son,
• 59:46
  my older son,
• 59:47
  has the game of his life.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_03: He saves the day with his pitching.
• 59:52
  He gets a beautiful double to the outfield where he's been
• 59:55
  working on his hitting.
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_03: He has an amazingly good game.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_03: But here we all are.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_03: We're holding two perspectives.
• 1:00:03
  We're holding my older son's perspective and my younger son's
• 1:00:07
  perspective.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_03: We're elated for my older son, but we're devastated for my younger son.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_03: And after the game, my older son goes with my parents.
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_03: So he's with grandma and grandpa.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_03: So he's able to celebrate and be, just talk about himself, honestly.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_03: Just talk about himself, the entire car, right, to dinner.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_03: My younger son is with my partner where he's crying, okay?
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm by myself where I'm just fuming.
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just angry, angry, angry, angry at the coaches.
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_03: And we get to dinner, and it was like we're trying to do both.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_03: We're trying to celebrate my older son,
• 1:00:45
  and we're trying to also express why we're feeling sad about my
• 1:00:48
  younger son.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm thinking, when is it going to come for my older son?
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_03: When is this going to come?
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_03: Because he hasn't been able to have his feelings about this yet.
• 1:01:00
  So the very next morning on the sofa before school,
• 1:01:03
  he just breaks down crying.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_03: And he says, you guys weren't happy for me.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_03: You guys weren't happy for me.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_03: And we said,
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_03: we were,
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_03: we tried to,
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_03: give you time with grandma and grandpa to just celebrate.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_03: And then at dinner, we had, you know, we talked about how well you did.
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_03: He said, but it wasn't just happy.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_03: I wanted to be happy, not with just grandpa and grandpa, but with you.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_03: I wanted you to be happy.
• 1:01:31
  And it was so interesting because what I actually think was
• 1:01:35
  underneath it was that
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_03: he couldn't have the purity of emotion for himself.
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah.
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, yes.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_03: He was holding his brother's disappointment.
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 1:01:47
  So he was,
• 1:01:48
  you know,
• 1:01:49
  in his process,
• 1:01:50
  he was like,
• 1:01:51
  you guys couldn't be happy anymore.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_03: I actually think underneath it was that he couldn't just be happy.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_03: It was both.
• 1:02:03
  He had to consider his brother at the same time that he was
• 1:02:07
  proud of himself.
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_01: I want to,
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_01: if I might play off that,
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_01: because I feel like I see an equivalent to that again often in my life.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_01: community, right?
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_01: And the experience of moms.
• 1:02:24
  Because what I'm hearing you say is he's still struggling to
• 1:02:29
  hold the dissonance.
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so he's giving half of that dissonance to you.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe...
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know, let me know if this is right.
• 1:02:41
  I'm hoping that maybe this is a sign of that emerging,
• 1:02:45
  that capacity for the dissonance.
• 1:02:47
  Like those two feelings are there,
• 1:02:49
  but he's putting the more uncomfortable one on you.
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:02:55
  Which is what a lot of these kids are doing when it comes to
• 1:02:59
  the identity.
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_01: The dissonance is there and they're going to let mom hold it.
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_01: You're going to hold the ugly, uncomfortable part.
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_01: You're the safest person in the world.
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm giving it to you.
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_03: Just for listeners who can't see me, I'm nodding my head a lot over here.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that that's not, I would say, let that be okay.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, not that you jump in and reinforce the negative dissonance.
• 1:03:38
  I think we need to hold that lightly and carefully and give it
• 1:03:44
  back to them even.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_01: But that is going to complicate the relationship right now, unavoidably.
• 1:03:53
  SPEAKER_01: And that's painful.
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_01: That hurts, right?
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_01: And this is part of the fruits of the maturity.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_01: Can we...
• 1:04:01
  SPEAKER_01: Hold that for them, I think, as they are coming into that maturity.
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_03: It's hard.
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_03: That's beautifully spoken to.
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_03: It's so beautiful how you spoke to that.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I agree with what you're saying.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_03: It is...
• 1:04:21
  It's evidence of these gears turning,
• 1:04:23
  of these bubbles bubbling up of inner conflict.
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_03: And especially for the sensitive.
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_03: Which most of these kids are, yes.
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_03: That cognitive defense is going to kick in and push out the discomfort.
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_03: It's not willful.
• 1:04:45
  I think it's just how they are moved to protect that feeling of
• 1:04:54
  vulnerability.
• 1:04:56
  SPEAKER_03: To defend against that extremely vulnerable feeling.
• 1:04:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_03: Whatever it is,
• 1:05:03
  SPEAKER_03: like if it's a sense of emerging sense of responsibility,
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_03: there's going to be guilt.
• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:05:08
  You know,
• 1:05:08
  there's just these different pieces that we can perceive as
• 1:05:14
  them.
• 1:05:16
  SPEAKER_03: Not caring.
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_03: We can perceive that as, you know, maybe an attack or, you know, blame.
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of the time it's going to be blame.
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_03: Because it's going to be this sense of...
• 1:05:34
  kind of protecting a sense of dignity or,
• 1:05:36
  you know,
• 1:05:37
  whatever isn't working is not my fault.
• 1:05:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so it goes out to someone else or to an external circumstance.
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_01: And can I even give my own, again, personal example of this?
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_01: I might've shared it before.
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_01: I know I've shared it in the community a while back.
• 1:05:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's been a bit,
• 1:05:54
  and we're going to be looking at blame again in there soon in
• 1:05:58
  the online community.
• 1:05:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_01: I caught myself probably in my late 30s, maybe.
• 1:06:09
  SPEAKER_01: Might have been early 40s.
• 1:06:12
  And when you were telling your story earlier about you and your
• 1:06:14
  partner and the
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_01: anger you would feel,
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_01: the frustration you would feel,
• 1:06:18
  SPEAKER_01: I was actually in the – I remember where I was.
• 1:06:21
  SPEAKER_01: I was in the shower.
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_01: I don't remember what the content was at all.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_01: But I was so mad at my husband.
• 1:06:30
  and blaming him for something,
• 1:06:31
  and it hit me,
• 1:06:34
  he was nowhere close to this thing.
• 1:06:36
  SPEAKER_01: Whatever it was, it couldn't possibly have been his fault, right?
• 1:06:43
  But that this is a mechanism to outsource responsibility and
• 1:06:50
  guilt,
• 1:06:51
  right?
• 1:06:52
  SPEAKER_01: So that's coming to my mind too,
• 1:06:53
  SPEAKER_01: is the capacity for guilt is also,
• 1:06:57
  SPEAKER_01: I would imagine,
• 1:06:57
  SPEAKER_01: among these fruits of maturity,
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because,
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_01: and I realized this was,
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_01: I was just,
• 1:07:06
  SPEAKER_01: this was my MO up until this point,
• 1:07:09
  SPEAKER_01: was to put it on him.
• 1:07:11
  And that gave me this frame when I started seeing this in
• 1:07:15
  families and the kids doing it.
• 1:07:17
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, he wasn't going anywhere, right?
• 1:07:20
  SPEAKER_01: He was safe.
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_01: He was somewhere safe for me to have him hold it,
• 1:07:25
  SPEAKER_01: have him hold it for me to project that,
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 1:07:28
  SPEAKER_01: Because I couldn't tolerate it yet.
• 1:07:30
  I couldn't tolerate that personal responsibility for those
• 1:07:34
  uncomfortable feelings.
• 1:07:35
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so when I saw this happening with children and my own kids,
• 1:07:43
  SPEAKER_01: that became even a mantra for me.
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, she needs this from me right now.
• 1:07:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's not about me, but I'm the safest person.
• 1:07:56
  SPEAKER_01: That was my mantra.
• 1:07:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm the safest person.
• 1:08:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's why she can give this to me.
• 1:08:03
  SPEAKER_01: My job is to help hold it.
• 1:08:07
  SPEAKER_01: And though to reflect it, right?
• 1:08:09
  SPEAKER_01: Not to take it all on because if we take it all on,
• 1:08:12
  SPEAKER_01: what we're seeing is I think then the child just cuts the parent out.
• 1:08:18
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the way they deal with the dissonance.
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:08:22
  You know,
• 1:08:22
  so doing this dance of holding but not owning maybe the
• 1:08:30
  dissonance for them.
• 1:08:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:08:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:08:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm glad we've been able to flesh this particular phenomenon out,
• 1:08:39
  SPEAKER_01: this relational dynamic,
• 1:08:41
  because I think I'm really hoping this will be helpful for
• 1:08:45
  parents who are dealing
• 1:08:48
  SPEAKER_01: with this,
• 1:08:49
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 1:08:49
  SPEAKER_01: This is a very, I think, predominant dynamic that I'm seeing.
• 1:08:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_03: That's really, yeah, no, that's really profound.
• 1:08:58
  And,
• 1:08:58
  um,
• 1:08:59
  it kind of brings me to this next point and I know we should be
• 1:09:03
  wrapping up soon.
• 1:09:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um,
• 1:09:05
  SPEAKER_03: but I just want to make sure to mention this because I'm,
• 1:09:08
  I'm imagining the scenario with my son where he's crying on the
• 1:09:11
  couch and kind of,
• 1:09:11
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:09:12
  what we talked about and then your comparison where you're
• 1:09:14
  drawing a very similar
• 1:09:16
  SPEAKER_03: dynamic out.
• 1:09:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um,
• 1:09:20
  SPEAKER_03: And thinking about our role in like,
• 1:09:22
  SPEAKER_03: like you're saying,
• 1:09:23
  kind of holding the space for our children to start to have
• 1:09:26
  this inner conflict.
• 1:09:28
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 1:09:29
  SPEAKER_03: Which requires vulnerability,
• 1:09:31
  SPEAKER_03: which requires being able to feel,
• 1:09:33
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:09:34
  SPEAKER_03: these two conflicting emotions or two conflicting feelings.
• 1:09:39
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 1:09:41
  SPEAKER_03: In those moments,
• 1:09:42
  SPEAKER_03: though,
• 1:09:43
  SPEAKER_03: where the emotions are intense,
• 1:09:46
  SPEAKER_03: the more intense the emotions,
• 1:09:48
  SPEAKER_03: the more difficult they are to mix.
• 1:09:49
  SPEAKER_03: And this is across the board.
• 1:09:50
  SPEAKER_03: This is for us.
• 1:09:51
  SPEAKER_03: This is for our children.
• 1:09:54
  So in the moment of some intensity,
• 1:09:57
  this might not be the time to push the integration per se.
• 1:10:04
  SPEAKER_03: But as we see it bubbling up in these other moments,
• 1:10:08
  SPEAKER_03: And opportunities,
• 1:10:09
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:10:09
  that's where we can do what's kind of like what NUFA will call
• 1:10:13
  like the priming
• 1:10:14
  SPEAKER_03: where it's like,
• 1:10:14
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 1:10:14
  I can imagine that part of you feels this way and maybe the
• 1:10:18
  other part of you feels
• 1:10:18
  SPEAKER_03: that way,
• 1:10:19
  SPEAKER_03: you know.
• 1:10:20
  But when it's less high stakes,
• 1:10:23
  when it's less intense,
• 1:10:24
  when we're not in the middle of like.
• 1:10:27
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:10:28
  SPEAKER_03: kind of that exchange of like blame being put on us and,
• 1:10:32
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:10:32
  SPEAKER_03: where the emotions are high for both of us.
• 1:10:36
  SPEAKER_03: So again,
• 1:10:36
  SPEAKER_03: not doing that work,
• 1:10:37
  SPEAKER_03: quote unquote,
• 1:10:38
  SPEAKER_03: in the incident per se,
• 1:10:40
  SPEAKER_03: but just really over the long term,
• 1:10:43
  SPEAKER_03: do I see,
• 1:10:44
  SPEAKER_03: where do I see my child in the integrative process?
• 1:10:47
  And,
• 1:10:47
  and just to say this,
• 1:10:48
  there's two kind of major stages of it,
• 1:10:50
  at least that,
• 1:10:53
  The five to seven,
• 1:10:54
  which is going to be like a nine to 12 for a sensitive child.
• 1:10:57
  SPEAKER_03: It's going to take longer.
• 1:10:59
  SPEAKER_03: My son didn't have this at five to seven.
• 1:11:01
  SPEAKER_03: It was later for him.
• 1:11:03
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 1:11:05
  SPEAKER_03: But it's going to repeat itself in that developmental adolescence period.
• 1:11:10
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 1:11:11
  SPEAKER_03: Where like you're saying the moms who say, hey, my 22 year old.
• 1:11:14
  SPEAKER_03: is acting like a 12-year-old or a 16-year-old.
• 1:11:17
  Very intuitive because we go through a second preschooler
• 1:11:22
  experience as we are
• 1:11:24
  SPEAKER_03: refining and maturing through puberty,
• 1:11:27
  SPEAKER_03: essentially,
• 1:11:27
  SPEAKER_03: through that experience of adolescence.
• 1:11:30
  SPEAKER_03: So...
• 1:11:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um,
• 1:11:32
  SPEAKER_03: so all of that's to say,
• 1:11:34
  SPEAKER_03: if you see some of these same non-integrative dynamics,
• 1:11:36
  SPEAKER_03: maybe my child is actually more mature at nine than they are at 15,
• 1:11:42
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:11:43
  SPEAKER_03: and then they're going to emerge at 18 or 25 or whatever it is,
• 1:11:47
  SPEAKER_03: um,
• 1:11:49
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:11:50
  SPEAKER_03: integrative again,
• 1:11:51
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:11:52
  SPEAKER_03: so,
• 1:11:52
  SPEAKER_03: um,
• 1:11:53
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like I'm jumping around here,
• 1:11:54
  SPEAKER_03: but I just two things I want to say when the emotions are intense,
• 1:11:58
  SPEAKER_03: harder to mix.
• 1:11:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:11:59
  So do that work of of tiny little touches around the edges of I
• 1:12:06
  can imagine this
• 1:12:07
  SPEAKER_03: experience might make you you might be happy on the one hand,
• 1:12:10
  SPEAKER_03: sad on the other.
• 1:12:11
  SPEAKER_03: You might be scared on the one hand, excited on the other.
• 1:12:17
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes in my house, do them when it's less intense is my big message.
• 1:12:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:12:22
  in my house we used to talk about who's running like running a
• 1:12:25
  race of two feelings
• 1:12:27
  like is excited ahead or is scared ahead who's ahead right now
• 1:12:32
  we talked about that
• 1:12:32
  a lot with our kids like over a period of years to to kind of
• 1:12:38
  prime that idea of
• 1:12:39
  these two different feelings um that can be running a race with
• 1:12:44
  each other which
• 1:12:44
  SPEAKER_03: one is ahead which one is behind you know um
• 1:12:49
  SPEAKER_03: So point one, when emotions are intense, they're harder to mix.
• 1:12:52
  SPEAKER_03: Don't try to do your work there.
• 1:12:54
  SPEAKER_03: Do it when things are lower key.
• 1:12:59
  And number two,
• 1:13:00
  for our sensitive kids,
• 1:13:01
  this process is going to take a longer time.
• 1:13:06
  SPEAKER_03: And it's not going to be like, okay, ages and stages, five to seven.
• 1:13:10
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 1:13:11
  the caterpillar is going to become the butterfly and we're
• 1:13:13
  going to integrate and
• 1:13:14
  SPEAKER_03: be this new,
• 1:13:15
  SPEAKER_03: you know.
• 1:13:16
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, no, that could happen much later.
• 1:13:20
  SPEAKER_03: And like you're saying, it's never too late.
• 1:13:23
  SPEAKER_03: It's never too late.
• 1:13:24
  And it's going to require our own integrated capacity of
• 1:13:27
  determination and patience
• 1:13:32
  SPEAKER_01: and capacity for inner conflict and courage.
• 1:13:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:13:39
  Delayed gratification,
• 1:13:40
  understanding,
• 1:13:41
  multiple perspectives,
• 1:13:43
  being balanced and stable.
• 1:13:45
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:13:46
  SPEAKER_01: So it takes a lot of maturity on our part to
• 1:13:50
  SPEAKER_01: to be with this for the long run that it's going to take.
• 1:13:56
  SPEAKER_01: And if I could offer,
• 1:13:58
  SPEAKER_01: and I love your input on this and what you think of this,
• 1:14:02
  SPEAKER_01: when emotions are intense,
• 1:14:04
  SPEAKER_01: kind of hearkening back to that last episode,
• 1:14:07
  SPEAKER_01: how can we hold it in that moment?
• 1:14:12
  You know,
• 1:14:12
  and I would say,
• 1:14:14
  you said to be able to mix requires vulnerability.
• 1:14:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so just a few reminders, right?
• 1:14:20
  For that frustration to move out of the system,
• 1:14:22
  what they need is a soft place.
• 1:14:24
  SPEAKER_01: So how can we come in as the angel of comfort?
• 1:14:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think even when they are putting this dissonance on us, a way to...
• 1:14:34
  respond that that has worked for me and that I often recommend
• 1:14:38
  is that I wish you
• 1:14:41
  know or just acknowledging I know this is so hard and you you
• 1:14:45
  wish that I was a
• 1:14:47
  different kind of mom you know I wish I could be that for you I
• 1:14:51
  you know just being
• 1:14:54
  SPEAKER_01: that soft place though
• 1:14:56
  Reflecting what they wish,
• 1:14:58
  what you wish for them,
• 1:14:59
  and acknowledging how hard it is.
• 1:15:01
  So you're acting as both the agent of futility and the angel of
• 1:15:07
  comfort in that moment.
• 1:15:08
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 1:15:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's so well said.
• 1:15:12
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 1:15:14
  SPEAKER_03: Honey, I know you are so upset right now.
• 1:15:17
  SPEAKER_03: This is not what you wanted.
• 1:15:21
  SPEAKER_03: You wanted something different.
• 1:15:23
  SPEAKER_03: This is not working for you.
• 1:15:27
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 1:15:28
  SPEAKER_03: and then if you think they have that ability to,
• 1:15:32
  SPEAKER_03: that you know they are able to have their tears,
• 1:15:35
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:15:36
  SPEAKER_03: that they're not stuck just in aggression,
• 1:15:38
  SPEAKER_03: but you've seen them be capable of adaptation,
• 1:15:43
  SPEAKER_03: you can,
• 1:15:43
  SPEAKER_03: again,
• 1:15:43
  SPEAKER_03: prime that by just adding a touch of sadness to your voice.
• 1:15:46
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 1:15:47
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 1:15:48
  SPEAKER_03: just a touch, not too much.
• 1:15:49
  SPEAKER_03: It's just, it's kind of just letting that crack open.
• 1:15:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um,
• 1:15:55
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:15:56
  SPEAKER_03: Oh honey,
• 1:15:57
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:15:58
  SPEAKER_03: just giving that energy of,
• 1:16:01
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:16:02
  SPEAKER_03: if there's tears that need to come out,
• 1:16:04
  SPEAKER_03: just cracking a little space for that in the way that your presence is,
• 1:16:09
  SPEAKER_03: is,
• 1:16:10
  SPEAKER_03: is alongside them.
• 1:16:12
  SPEAKER_01: And the sadness, your child's sadness is,
• 1:16:17
  SPEAKER_01: is a good sign.
• 1:16:24
  SPEAKER_03: And all of these things, it's like, this is what we want, yearn to see.
• 1:16:30
  SPEAKER_03: Once we see these things,
• 1:16:32
  SPEAKER_03: the fruits of the integrative process,
• 1:16:34
  SPEAKER_03: the fruits of adaptation,
• 1:16:37
  SPEAKER_03: the fruits of emergence,
• 1:16:39
  we can see what may appear to be willful or problematic
• 1:16:43
  behavior or uncomfortable
• 1:16:48
  SPEAKER_03: emotions as like,
• 1:16:51
  SPEAKER_03: this is what we want to see.
• 1:16:54
  development unfolding this is maturity unfolding yes like to
• 1:17:01
  hear our child have an
• 1:17:03
  inner conflict like i want to be happy but i'm also sad you
• 1:17:09
  know i everything i
• 1:17:11
  think of has another side you know um this can be hard for us
• 1:17:16
  because it's like oh
• 1:17:17
  SPEAKER_03: my gosh goodbye purity of emotion and
• 1:17:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's painful for us, too.
• 1:17:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that innocence of life is black and white.
• 1:17:25
  SPEAKER_03: There's one or the other.
• 1:17:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's a painful reality to recognize that life is mixed.
• 1:17:33
  SPEAKER_01: And to live fully, we need the capacity for the mix.
• 1:17:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, exactly.
• 1:17:41
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 1:17:42
  SPEAKER_03: That actually kind of brings me to a quote.
• 1:17:46
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, I got to find it here in my notes.
• 1:17:49
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 1:17:54
  SPEAKER_03: Dr.
• 1:17:54
  SPEAKER_03: Neufeld quoted Maslow by saying that,
• 1:17:59
  SPEAKER_03: I guess,
• 1:17:59
  SPEAKER_03: Maslow looked at,
• 1:18:00
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:18:00
  SPEAKER_03: a whole broad spectrum of adults and their capacity,
• 1:18:04
  SPEAKER_03: the capacity to just function,
• 1:18:05
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:18:06
  SPEAKER_03: meet that potential of development or maturity.
• 1:18:11
  SPEAKER_03: And someone asked him,
• 1:18:13
  SPEAKER_03: if there was just one characteristic of the most actualized adults,
• 1:18:19
  SPEAKER_03: what would it be?
• 1:18:20
  SPEAKER_03: What did you find?
• 1:18:21
  SPEAKER_03: And he said, the ability to have this and functioning.
• 1:18:25
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 1:18:29
  SPEAKER_03: So what you spoke to as that both end to have,
• 1:18:31
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 1:18:31
  SPEAKER_03: there's this and there's this,
• 1:18:35
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:18:35
  just seeing that this integrative process is just really what
• 1:18:40
  allows for the beauty
• 1:18:42
  SPEAKER_03: of those fruits to emerge.
• 1:18:48
  SPEAKER_01: And the exquisiteness of life.
• 1:18:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:18:54
  SPEAKER_01: To happen for us.
• 1:18:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:18:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:18:59
  SPEAKER_03: So there's more to come.
• 1:19:01
  SPEAKER_03: We're not done talking about the integrative process.
• 1:19:05
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 1:19:05
  SPEAKER_03: I'm hoping that in our next episode,
• 1:19:08
  SPEAKER_03: we're going to continue this and talk more about those,
• 1:19:11
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:19:11
  SPEAKER_03: the mixing bowl.
• 1:19:14
  SPEAKER_03: Give some concrete examples of the mixture of,
• 1:19:19
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:19:19
  SPEAKER_03: alarm and desire when talking about courage and a couple other ones,
• 1:19:24
  SPEAKER_03: as well as I think kind of covering...
• 1:19:27
  SPEAKER_03: When there's a deficit,
• 1:19:28
  SPEAKER_03: when the integrative process is not there,
• 1:19:32
  SPEAKER_03: what would we see and what are some of the challenges of that?
• 1:19:35
  SPEAKER_03: And again,
• 1:19:36
  this idea of what we see informing what we do and the way we
• 1:19:42
  can respond to a child
• 1:19:43
  SPEAKER_03: who's not integrative.
• 1:19:44
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 1:19:45
  SPEAKER_03: in a way that isn't punishing or shaming this,
• 1:19:49
  SPEAKER_03: but with an understanding that they are still maturing.
• 1:19:54
  SPEAKER_03: They're not yet at that place of having that fruit.
• 1:19:58
  SPEAKER_03: So how can we walk alongside that?
• 1:20:00
  How can we shepherd that in a way that keeps their heart soft
• 1:20:05
  and keeps our relationship strong?
• 1:20:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:20:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:20:14
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:20:14
  SPEAKER_01: Looking forward to that.
• 1:20:16
  SPEAKER_01: We're also, we have a Q and a episode planned for the future.
• 1:20:20
  SPEAKER_01: So after this next episode,
• 1:20:23
  we plan to tackle listener questions and we will be creating a
• 1:20:28
  way for paid
• 1:20:30
  SPEAKER_01: subscribers to submit questions.
• 1:20:33
  SPEAKER_01: And we look forward to digging into those and, and, uh,
• 1:20:38
  Those always make for really rich conversations that I think
• 1:20:41
  are really,
• 1:20:41
  really helpful.
• 1:20:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:20:46
  SPEAKER_01: And if I might,
• 1:20:47
  I might plug the Stoic Mom Project for listeners who are maybe
• 1:20:52
  coming in not via
• 1:20:53
  SPEAKER_01: the Stoic Mom Project.
• 1:20:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's where I do create content for parents who are navigating this very
• 1:21:02
  complicated terrain of parenting a child who's assumed a trans
• 1:21:05
  identity and,
• 1:21:07
  SPEAKER_01: and really looking at our own impediments,
• 1:21:11
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:21:12
  SPEAKER_01: to some of this stuff,
• 1:21:12
  SPEAKER_01: what makes it hard for us to practice a lot of what we talk about here on
• 1:21:17
  SPEAKER_01: attachment matters and how can we,
• 1:21:20
  SPEAKER_01: how can we grow ourselves up so that we can provide the conditions that
• 1:21:28
  SPEAKER_01: for our children's maturity to come alongside them.
• 1:21:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:21:34
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much.
• 1:21:35
  SPEAKER_03: And we'll look forward to our next,
• 1:21:38
  SPEAKER_03: not only our next episode,
• 1:21:39
  SPEAKER_03: but that Q&A,
• 1:21:40
  SPEAKER_03: just like you said,
• 1:21:41
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:21:42
  just really looking forward to hearing from you all and helping
• 1:21:46
  us go deeper.
• 1:21:47
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Rose.
• 1:21:51
  SPEAKER_01: And thanks, everybody.
• 1:21:52
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:21:53
  SPEAKER_01: thank everybody.
• 1:21:55
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, listeners.
• 1:21:56
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening.
• 1:21:58
  SPEAKER_01: We hope you take something of value from our conversation today.
• 1:22:01
  Be sure to subscribe to our Substack to have new episodes
• 1:22:04
  delivered to your inbox.
• 1:22:06
  SPEAKER_03: Don't forget that as a paid subscriber,
• 1:22:08
  you have access to more resources and can help us to shape the
• 1:22:12
  conversation.
• 1:22:13
  SPEAKER_01: As always,
• 1:22:14
  we encourage you to share your feedback and takeaways in the
• 1:22:17
  comments and hope you
• 1:22:18
  SPEAKER_01: will join us for the next episode of Attachment Matters.