Latest / Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast / Representation and Diversity on Competition Judging Panels

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Representation and Diversity on Competition Judging Panels · Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever wondered what goes on behind the table at a dance competition?
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly what are the judges looking for anyway?
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: This is Making the Impact, a dance competition podcast.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Each week we'll cover a different topic related to the world of competitive dance from the perspective of the judges behind the table.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: The dance world is made up of seemingly infinite styles of movement, from the elegant and ethereal to the raw and gritty.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: With such diverse opportunities for expression on the stage, why do we often not see diversity behind the table at dance competitions?
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: Today we're discussing the importance of all forms of diversity and representation on judging panels, from age to race to gender to style.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: Hello, dance world, and welcome to our next episode of Making the Impact.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Courtney Ortiz, and I'm here with my co-host Leslie Mueller.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: Hey Courtney, happy podcast day.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: Happy Podcast Day.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's always a great day over in Podcast Lands, and I love sitting here recording with you and talking about uh the judging side of the table, the judges organization and side of dance competitions this week on making the impact.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's gonna be a fun one.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: It is.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think we haven't we love to do, you know, so many different kinds of topics, but I always love it when we get kind of back to our roots with like judging, judging focused stuff.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: So this is gonna be a good one today.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I definitely think so.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: We are covering the topic of diversity on judging panels at dance competitions and representation on those panels, which we're going to dive all into with two brand new guests who are joining us on the pod, IDA judges as well.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: So you're gonna hear from four experienced judges in the industry and hearing all about our thoughts on why representation matters for dance competitions.
• 1:49
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• 3:04
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• 3:15
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• 3:54
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• 4:33
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• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: Alright, Dance World, we're jumping into a very important topic today, and this one is all about the judging panels.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: I know you know all about Impact Dance Adjudicators because we bring this podcast to you from my organization that I created 10 years ago.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: Can you believe it?
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: We've been around for 10 whole years in the competition industry.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: I truly can't believe it.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I can tell you more about what I how IDA came about, but a lot of it has to do with finding judges work at dance competitions and having an easier way for competitions to find qualified judges.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: But today we're not just talking about the quality of the judges that are on the panel because as a customer, you are hoping that judges are qualified and able to sit there and do their job properly.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: You're hoping that they've been screened.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: You're hoping that they've been vetted.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: Let's be real, that doesn't always happen.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: But not only that, we need to make sure that there is diversity on our judging panels.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: And why is that important?
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna talk all about it today on making the impact.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: We have two longtime IDA judges joining us and two brand new guests to our podcast.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: They've never been on Making the Impact before, and I'm so excited to have them here with us today.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: The first guest that I'm so thrilled to welcome is coming to us from New York City.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: You may have had him as a judge on one of your judging panels in the past, and he is a Broadway veteran.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm excited to welcome Jodi Renard to the podcast.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome, Jody.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_05: Hello on this lovely Monday.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you for having me.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: So thrilled to have you finally on the podcast.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for being on the roster with us at IDA for so long.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: And Jody, if you could share with the world more about you, where you grew up, your early dance training, what took you to New York, any credits you want to share, and uh what you're working on currently.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_05: Well, you briefly mentioned that I'm a Broadway veteran.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, some people don't like the use of that word veteran because it means you survive something.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_05: And I want to say that I'm still in the middle of thriving with six credits to my name, five musicals in a play.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_05: I grew up in the South, so I did not grow up in a dance studio environment.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_05: I was first introduced to dance at a performing arts high school, and I was first a vocal major there and then switched to dance my senior year via being cast in various numbers in dance concerts and through show choir there.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_05: And dance has just been a huge part of my life.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_05: I am now a dance educator as well, teaching at a conservatory program and doing guests and master classes.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_05: Hint, hint, nudge, nudge to those listening.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_05: So uh New York City was where it was supposed to be for Broadway and still is for the most part.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_05: So that's what got me here right after getting my degree.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: Amazing.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: And do you want to share like some of the shows that you were so fortunate to be a part of?
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_05: I mean not toot toot, but my own horn that is.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_05: My Broadway debut was in Fosse, right after it won the Tony Award.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_05: I went to an open call, and the late grade and ranking pulled me out of that open call, and I was hired as the first vacation swing for that show.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_05: I did Saturday Night Fever, I did Taboo, which was the Boy George musical, Summer, the Donna Summer musical.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_05: They like me in Disco on Broadway.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_05: I also was in the closing company of Legally Blonde.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_05: And that was tremendous.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_05: And uh the one play credit I have is Thoughts of a Colored Man.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_05: I originated a part in that uh before it hit Broadway and then eventually got into the Broadway company.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I you know, I know that you don't want to toot your own horn, but you've had such a beautiful career, and our listeners want to know all the goods and all the shows that you've been a part of.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: So thanks for sharing that with all of us.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: Of course.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yay.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: All right, Jody.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for being here.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm excited to have you.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yay.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: Next up is another longtime IDA judge and a Marylander just like me.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: Let's go, Maryland.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: They have been on our roster for so many years.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: They've been judging all around the country and the tri-state area for us.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: And they are also a new mom.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited to welcome Crystal Mann Hollinger to the podcast.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome, Crystal.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: Hi, I'm so excited to be here.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_02: I've listened to so many podcasts.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'm excited to finally get to be a part of one.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: So yay.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, your very first podcast ever.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: Ever.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: In life.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: We love that.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: We love that.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: Amazing, Crystal.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, if you could share the same can same kind of deal, a little bit more about you.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: So I grew up in Maryland, as Courtney just said, um, started dancing here.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: So unlike Jody, I I grew up in the studio.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_02: So I did the competitions, I did the whole thing, went to performing arts high school, and ended up in New York to do more of the commercial side of dance, which was an amazing opportunity.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: Got to dance with the NBA, with the NFL.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_02: And now I'm currently the director of a dance program and spending a lot of time just educating the next generation of dancers.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm just so excited to see what they bring and and how the dance world is going to continue to evolve and change with this new talent of dancers that I've been fortunate to be working with.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: And just out of curiosity, because I don't know this fact, but what arts high school did you go to?
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_02: I went to Suitland High School in Forrestville, M.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, cool.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: Amazing.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't heard of that.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I was like, I want to know.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I, you know, Maryland scene's not huge.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so that's the one in Prince George's County.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_02: There's since like changed it up because it was when I was there, it was just uh the one in Maryland, which was in Prince George's County was Suitland, and then Duke Ellington in DC, and then Baltimore School of the Arts in Baltimore.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: So those were the three.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um when I was growing up.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe it's showing my age here, but you know.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: No, but you know what?
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: It I'm glad that it's changed because it's it's refreshing to hear that there's more arts high schools coming into our our scene for our next generation.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome, Crystal.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thanks for being on the IDU roster and thanks for joining us on this chat.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, thank you.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: All right, let's jump into this episode all about diversity on our judging panels at competition.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: Well, again, like Courtney said, thanks y'all for being here.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: We are grateful for your perspectives and for your longevity in the industry.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's, you know, speaks to the kind of educators you are that you've stuck around for this long.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's it's a hard job, and we're grateful that you're here to continue helping educate even on this platform.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: So representation and diversity, I feel like people think that that means one thing, and it actually doesn't, at least in the conversation we're having today.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: So we are going to be covering diversity in all forms, whether that's age, race, gender, uh, style, things like that.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: Because in in our industry, a lot of things go into judging a dance competition.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, one person's opinion changes based on all those things I mentioned.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: And to have a cohesive panel, you need people that can represent different kinds of opinions.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: So we want to talk about why that is.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to just get a general overview from both of you from your perspective.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: Why does representation in all of those forms matter at the judging table?
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: Anybody can start.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_02: I just feel like that representation just gives us a holistic view of what dance can be.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_02: Just giving the diverse culture, the aesthetic, the technique, the perspective, like all that needs to be holistic in a way where every dance style is appreciated and you get that diversity of opinion as well that will take back to the student, to the to the choreographer, to this to the education system or wherever they came from.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_02: To give them that full view of different backgrounds, different educations, and I think that'll just give them a better feedback in what they can take from, you know, the whole judging experience.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_05: I agree with that.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_05: And I mean it's a buzzword these days within our culture.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_05: It's like you have to see it to be it.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_05: So even if it's just as small as a dancer on stage or a dancer cheering on the dancers on stage from the audience, just to see their own type of representation or someone that looks like them behind the judges panel could be the spark of inspiration or creativity to be like, hey, maybe I could do this too.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_05: Maybe there's a place for me here.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_05: And then reiterating what Crystal said, just because dance is so diverse with all the genres, with all the types of pieces that are brought into a competition, it helps for there to be diversity on the judges panel to be specialists in the different genres that could be presented.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_05: And then, like we're talking about like different genders, different ages to bring all of those different perspectives and point of views to best adjudicate the pieces that we have in front of us.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: It is so important.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: I completely agree.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: And it's something that I think is often lacking in our industry across the board in a variety of ways that we're going to dive into.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: But I couldn't agree more with both of you because I do think that having dancers see on the other side of the table, when even like on our professional side, the casting table could be another reference of this.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, today we're talking about judging at dance competitions for this younger span of dancers, to be able to see the people behind the table.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: That competition is saying to everyone else in that room, they've made it, they've achieved something in their career to be sitting here in this moment and to not have the representation being displayed to an audience that might not take the time to read a bio, that might not take time to sometimes they don't even know our names.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: They don't even know who we are sitting behind that, to not even put that information into the hands of customers, of dancers, of other educators is doing a disservice to our industry because that is also not allowing the representation to be out there and shown.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: People don't even know who's sitting behind the table half the time.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: So if it if we're going to give no information about it, then at a minimum, we need to see the reper we need to see it.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like you said, Jodi, see the representation there.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: Because at least that's covered.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: Then you can dig deeper and figure find out our names and look at our bios and see our resumes and see what we've done to be sitting in this chair.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: And no one, and not everyone deserves to be sitting in that chair, by the way.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's well, Jodi, you said a phrase that sticks out to me as why we're having this conversation anyway.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's to best adjudicate the dancers.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: To we are there.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: The people have hired us, the competition has hired people in order to for them to do the very best job they can for your students.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: So it doesn't just behoove one entity for the diverse panel to exist.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: It behooves everyone, you know?
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: And that's that's what I'm kind of like if if there's ever a complaint from the higher-ups of whatever organization, there shouldn't be a complaint because the reason people want this is because it's for the best interests of the students.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: And that's like a point that I just feel like I really appreciate that you made that.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think some people don't think of it that way.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: And but that's really what we're getting down to is that like we all collectively want the best for the people coming to us.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: And that is how you get the best, is to find the diversity.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_05: Exactly.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_05: There are many times that I'm on a panel where I am the only male identifying judge, and then even further, sometimes I'm the only person of color.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_05: So with that, I try my best to bring all the expertise that I've experienced, all the training that I've experienced to just focus on how can I make these people better with this adjudication, with even just a small smile from behind the table sometimes.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_05: But I just I'm just a big proponent of just being there for them in that moment.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_05: Because sometimes that's all you have.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, Courtney, you were talking about like casting and other parts of our industry and such.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_05: Sometimes all you have is that moment.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_05: That moment, that day.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_05: So if I can be as present for them in that moment, that day, I want to be, and just representing all the different diversity that is that I am in that moment.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: And like really understanding, I think that, you know, and my job is hard as a service provider to competitions where I supply the judges to them, but we have a pool of 150 judges across the country.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: And we have a large roster of judges on purpose to be able to provide the versatility and the diversity that is needed to create a cohesive panel.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I will admit I don't always have a say in who gets selected for those judging panels.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: I will say who I think uh would make a cohesive panel.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: And my decision often gets overrided by my client who says, Oh, well, this judge is closer and they won't cost as much to travel.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I pick them over them, regardless of experience, regardless of race, regardless of ethnicity, regardless of age, all but regardless of style preference.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like there, those types of factors come into the casting of many competition organizations, unfortunately, in our industry.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that needs to change.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think we need to have the best people sitting in those chairs.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that the people who are casting them have to have a very, very good understanding of each and every judge that they are hiring and know their background and know their experience in the industry to then be able to say, I think that, you know, based on the clients that are coming to my competition, there's gonna be a lot of XYZ styles.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: There's gonna be a lot of studios that are novice or intermediate.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to cast this with someone who has longtime experience as a studio owner and I want to have a Broadway veteran on this panel or whatever the case may be, like more of those types of conversations need to be happening to create that cohesiveness and representation.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_05: I agree.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_05: And you know what?
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_05: Sometimes it's the flip side too.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_05: Because I know that there have been in my time with IDA, there have been some competitions that want me every year to the same city.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_05: And I think that too is a disservice because then you're not getting diversity in the way that you keep seeing me and you keep getting my critiques every year.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_05: Like this guy, don't we have another guy?
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_05: So it works in both ways.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_05: It's yes, you want the best casting possible based on what your competition is going to be composed of, but then you don't want the same viewpoint every year, no matter how diverse or how much of the diversity factor you see in someone like me.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_02: That's true.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I will say, as a competition for my competition director, director of a program, if I I've had competitions that my stand studio has gone to and we've had the same judge, which is great, and you know, in a sense, like like, okay, we're familiar, but I agree to Jody's point where it's like, okay, well, we heard this last year, or we heard this the year before, and I know what she's gonna say before she says it or he says it.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_02: So there is that point that I don't think you know it gets talked about enough as well, is like just rotating people out so that there is a plethora of voices that they hear, right?
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: And just getting that constant feedback from as many people as possible versus the same three people every time.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_05: So yeah, yet another definition of diversity.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_05: We need diverse voices seeing these pieces to to make them better and going back to like what Leslie highlighted, to be the best adjudicators that we can to best adjudicate them in those moments.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: What do we think about this?
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: Is actually a really, I think, a touchy subject among the adjudicators in the competition world.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: Age.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: Diversity of age.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think we've we've all been, I mean, maybe we all haven't been.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: I don't actually know Jody when you started judging, but like Courtney started judging when she was 21.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: I was really, really young.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: I shouldn't have been judging.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, a lot of us are getting get, I mean, nobody's getting younger, but like there's plenty of judges in the industry that I know that are that are on the older side, more seasoned.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I've heard kind of horror stories about people who have been not hired back and come to find out they haven't been hired back because they're considered quote unquote too old.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: Let's discuss.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: Or like old school mentality, I would say.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't know if like, okay, well, you're 45 and you can't judge anymore.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't think that's the case.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think that like at least like some of the sometimes what I've heard as feedback from customers and from my competition clients is that some of the quote unquote older generation judges that are in the industry are too harsh with their feedback, is what a lot of people say.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's like how uh, as we can see how people are trained throughout their years, different generations of dance are trained differently.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe we're a little bit more harder and direct.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: Direct yeah, direct and transparent and clear with what we're trying to get across.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe some of the newer, younger judges were brought up in a different generation of training where it's a little more sugar coated, a little less direct, a little bit more bubblegum, and maybe not every client likes one or the other.
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• 23:32
  SPEAKER_05: I would say more of the clients, more of the competitions at least that I've sat on the panel for, like the latter.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_05: They like, they it's frequent that I've seen in the the paperwork at this is what we expect, this is what we would like you to say in the microphone in the recording, is to like people call it the compliment sandwich.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_05: It's like you start with something nice, you give the critique, and then you finish with something nice.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_05: And I'm all for that.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_05: It's I I will confess because I've been judging since 2005.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_05: So that's almost 20 years of adjudication.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_05: Yes.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_05: When I started, I definitely had an old school mentality.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_05: I was on the front lines more so than I am now.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_05: And I was like, nope, this is the technique, this is the this is what needs to be done, this is what needs to be shown on this stage.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_05: I even had strong opinions about gender roles in certain pieces that I saw.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_05: Like I was very, very vocal about all of that because that was my experience.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_05: That's what I had seen, and that's what I had been part of.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_05: I still stand by a lot of those tenets that I had when I first started adjudicating, but I do see the benefits of changing my outlook.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, one of the New Year's resolutions that I make, uh I've made for the past couple of years is instead of getting frustrated, I want to be fascinated.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_05: So I love that.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_05: That creates a positivity in me to be like instead of letting this like frustrate me or to to create a negative response in me, let's be fascinated.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_05: That's interesting that you learn to do that.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_05: Let's see if we can straighten the leg a bit more.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_05: Let's see if we can get that that passe higher, as opposed to just saying that passe in relevant is wrong.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_05: It is very wrong.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: Even though in your head, maybe that's what you're thinking.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_05: But yes, yes, I'm always trying to think this is what we need to do, even if it's a reiteration, maybe even a reiteration from your own choreographer or your own studio teacher.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_05: If it's coming from a diverse place, coming from me, yet another place, then maybe I can get the dancer to do that.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_05: But it's been difficult because dance is evolving, and we see uh the old school mentality of the student was to get engrossed into as much technique, as much diverse classes as possible, but with that strong technical base, that's not the student mentality necessarily anymore.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_05: They want to come to competitions and they want to win.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_05: And that means that they're just coming in to learn the one piece that they're doing or the few pieces that they're doing to be adjudicated there.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_05: So if one was to have a more old school mentality, it is harder to adjudicate them because you you can see right away that they're not in regular technique classes every week.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_05: So again, I have to be fascinated instead of frustrated and be like, okay, for where you are right now, this is what we're gonna do.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_05: That's definitely the approach that I take on the conservatory students that I have now.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_05: I can't get mad at them for not knowing things that they that just haven't been presented to them before.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yep, yeah.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_02: I just to say, like, I I definitely think that that old school that like what won't ever go out of style is their technique though.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you know, we can't you can't dispute that.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: Like, is your knee straight, is your toe pointed?
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like that will never go out of style.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I think sometimes in this newer generation where the everybody wins, that kind of can get lost.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and I appreciate that that thought, Jody, like be fascinated, because sometimes, you know, it is frustrating to see the dancer just come out there or actually it's it's not the dancer, it's the choreographer and the this the school.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: They're like given stuff that they're not able to do and it's frustrating to see them struggle through it when if it just goes back to like good technique will never go out of style.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_02: I will say, like, maybe having a younger person on the panel would be good for like what's now, what's new, what's next.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's important too because I am not actively taking class like I used to.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: So there are trends that I wouldn't be as well versed in being more in the classroom setting versus being in the uh taking class setting, actively, actively auditioning.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: So there's that.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: I think both of those uh voices are valid, but I'm gonna always say that good technique will never go out of style.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_02: Like we can't dispute that.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's that's why I enjoy ballet so much because it's either right or it's wrong.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like there is no like gray area.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_02: So and I think that old school mentality is is good in that sense because uh I grew up and it's like not everybody won.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_02: It was first, second, or third.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_02: That's it.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody else.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: Good luck to you.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, see you next time.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's important that we discuss the age diversity.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I agree with you, Crystal.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think there is a need in our industry for some younger judges sitting on the panel because they are in the know.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: They they know what's going on in the industry, but at the same time, they also have less experience in the industry.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: So then, do they know how to talk to children?
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: Have they been in the classroom enough?
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: Do they know where the tone is?
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: Jody and I just said we started judging.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: So 15, 10 years ago for me, 20 years ago for Jody, we were younger, we were the younger generation judges at that time.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: And was I the same judge then that I am now?
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely not.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and we have to remember that just because they're less experienced and younger and cheaper, because experience maps.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: They don't know their worth, and a competition's gonna be like, great, you'll accept this crappy pay rate?
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: You live down the street, sure.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: Sit in my chair, and then the customers aren't getting that experience versus if the competition wanted to bring in someone who has that professional level experience, who has years in the classroom, and who also has years behind the table, because judging is a skill.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: Every teacher that is in the classroom might not be cut out to be a fantastic judge, and every professional dancer might not be cut out to be a fantastic judge.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's many different skill sets that are involved in being a quality judge.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that oftentimes gets overlooked, sometimes even by experience on a resume.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: You might look like you have the best blow your socks off resume and you can't judge at all.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: You don't know what to say, you don't know how to articulate, you don't have the tone, you can't think that quick.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like a lot goes into it.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_05: I agree.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_05: It's the same thing with teaching.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_05: Just because you have this beautiful, as you said, blow your socks off resume does not mean that you you can educate as well.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_05: And I think that there has to be like just a touch of uh an educator in a good adjudicator as well to just know like how to talk to them, how to get them to realize the the critique that you're trying to to give them.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it it all comes into play.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_05: And to piggyback off of what you were saying, Courtney, and what Crystal was saying too, it's like the younger judges will be on top of trends and such and everything.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_05: I also challenge the older judges, the older adjudicators to also do your best to stay abreast of what's going on.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, at the very least, like when I'm teaching these days and such, I'm trying to stay abreast of the music.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_05: Even for some of the competitions that I'm hired for, I, if I can keep my cell phone on the judges' table to Shazam just the new music, just to be like, oh, is that what they're dancing to?
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, this is an interesting song.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_05: Maybe I should educate myself on this artist.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_05: Is there a video?
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_05: Do they have a dance trend attached to that?
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_05: So yeah, I have to stay open to that for what I'm doing and for what I'm trying to accomplish as an adjudicator.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: All right, let's dive into another form of diversity.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I think this is an important discussion as a person of color on your end, race and ethnicity diversity on judging panels.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: I feel, and you hinted at this earlier, Jody, sometimes you may be the only person of color on a panel.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I would love to see more of this on in within our industry.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: But how have what have your experiences been like if you are that one person of color?
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: And how does that change oftentimes the perspectives that could be missing on a panel if you are not present?
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I think a lot of the times, or a lot of times, it comes into play when we get into the hip-hop genre.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_05: It's even though I do not consider myself a specialist in hip-hop, I can appreciate for I can appreciate it for what it is.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_05: And then I have like, I mean, just as a person of color, it's it's it's part of my culture.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_05: I can relate to where it's supposed to go, so to speak.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_05: And I often find that sometimes I'm the one that's looked to when a hip-hop number comes up and it's like, was that good?
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_05: And I'm like, well, that's not that's not my genre.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_05: It's like, do you teach hip-hop?
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_05: Do you take hip-hop class?
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_05: It's it's I find that that has come up for me as an adjudicator.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_05: And I also find that just in, I mean, it's only been recently that tights and shoes come in other skin tones.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_05: So it's just become so blatant just to see.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_05: It's like I, as I tell my students, specifically my ballet students, I say that this was this is what we base all of dance on.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_05: It's a centuries old technique base, but it was elitist.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_05: It was meant to be for the privileged, which is why I don't know why it took hundreds upon hundreds of years to then get tights and shoes that weren't spray painted, like the Dance Theater of Harlem.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_05: And you know what spray paint does to your shoes if you've ever had to do that.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_05: I know studio owners, uh choreographers, you've done that to shoes before, but Dance Theater of Harlem had been doing that for years until these shoes have come out.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_05: So I just think it's so important to be a person of color on a judge's panel to just be able to speak up for the differences as diverse dancers come up on the stage.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_05: And then to also kind of keep everyone in check to be like, don't stereotype just because I'm the black judge here doesn't mean that I'm gonna be able to tell you everything up and down about hip hop.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: Hello, tell them.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_02: As a dancer who had to spray paint her shoes, I um and dancing with dancing harlem and pancaking my my shoes with foundation so they match my skin.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so glad that that is now something that dancers don't have to do.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_02: But being that one, I've been the one dancer in the one dancer of color in a group.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: And if I were to have seen myself on the other side of the table, it would have probably given me that extra boost that I needed.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: Because in some of those instances, I was excluded.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so not only did I look different, but I was excluded from the outside activities, from the like, hey, let's go over to such and such house.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_02: I was excluded because I was different.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's a whole nother topic.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_02: That's a whole nother candle learn.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_02: However, I'm sure that my story is not the only person.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not the only person who has experienced that.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_02: So I am so proud to be sometimes that face on the other side of the judging table so that I can be what I needed when I was competing, what I needed when I was, you know, looking for validation to see like it was this where I belong.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_02: Do I really fit in?
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_02: Like if I have to work this hard to do half of what they get just because, then like why why put in this extra effort?
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_02: But like if I were to have seen myself for what could happen, I think that would have made the journey a lot easier.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I hope that like when they see a Jody or myself or somebody that looks like them, it pushes them to say, okay, it's challenging, but I can do it too.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_02: So that's why I think it's so important just for that representation.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I have to say, as a judge, I feel so much more like I have to work so much harder to make sure I say the right thing and to be exactly correct because I feel like if I were to say something wrong, they'll be like, oh, that judge, that judge doesn't know what she's talking about because of her skin color.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_02: So I have to be that much better because of like the color of my skin.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't think a lot of people understand there's that added pressure to be better, or you know, just so that you don't get labeled like, oh, we don't have to listen to her critiques because obviously she doesn't know ballet because she she knows tap because she's brown, or she does.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely because she's brown, so I think I would love, you know, this will take probably years and years and years to dispel that like attitude.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_02: But I would love to continue to see more people of color on the judging panel so that it can become second nature, and it's not like, oh, let me really inter her critiques because I'm not sure she'll know what she's talking about.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_02: Like you know, there's so many layers of being the only person of color on the judging panel.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_02: So that's why I'm so glad that this topic is being discussed because it's it's so important.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_02: Because like I said, like I just don't think a lot of people are aware of how many, like how deep this goes.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's not just that one level, it's many levels.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and I think like Courtney, where you were saying earlier, like some competitions, and this was this has historically been the case since I remember being judged or looking at a judging, looking at a program at a competition, a lot of times there's not even a program.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody knows who you are.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's judge number one, and that's all you know.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that is a I mean, I'm I would be curious to hear from competition owners historically about why that is.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: Is that a something they're overlooking?
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: Because maybe you don't think it matters, but you've heard from now, like this it mattered to you, Crystal.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like you would have liked to have known if there was a person of color on the panel who that was.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: What did they do?
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: What professional background do they have, so that you can see yourself in the future in that.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm I I mean, I am very curious like where the reasoning is for that side of the world, because that's that's very frustrating to think about.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's an overlook.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody knows over overlook too many things that they have to do.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: As long as we just have three people sitting there, that's all that matters.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I just don't think the thought and the the care and the details of these are real human beings who have done a lot of work to get to this position, to be sit certain certain organization.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody at IDA is screened and vetted and background checked.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: You don't just get to slip through the cracks and sit in a judging chair.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like you've put you've put a lot of time and energy and work to get yourself here and proven yourself to us to then be on our roster to then work with the competitions that we're affiliated with, which immediately tells the industry that that that those competitions care about quality, they care about diversity, they care about putting an extra, extra investment into their judges.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's what that's what IDA is about.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a lot of other competitions that don't put that same time and energy into the judging aspect of it.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: And the judges, you can't have a competition without the judges, y'all.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: And you need to make sure that the judges are quality, diverse, and represented respectfully on the panel, not a not an afterthought.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: And like I will say, I mean, there are competitions that I've worked with even through IDA that I get there and there's no mention of bios, there's no mention of names, there's no mention, no announcements, no introductions, nothing.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: But like something that I felt really made me really proud of Streets Dance Convention, which is where I teach at currently and I judge for, they're an IDA affiliated competition.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: They announce before every judging session who their judges are, if they're on faculty what their specialty is, they say their full name, and they also say if they're affiliated with impact dance adjudicators, if they're an impact dance adjudicator judge.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that is really special for the audience to hear because you immediately know who's who and who's judging your kids.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's the tap judge, great, I got it.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's the jazz judge, great, I got it.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, even if it comes into genres, or at least have the parents know who what your name is, because the parents don't know anything.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: They just show up and clap for their kids.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like they should be able to research, oh, okay, that's Cordio Tease.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: Who's that?
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: Go on Facebook, go on Instagram, put it into Google, read a bio.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: There should be bios accessible everywhere, like at an event.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: QR code, I don't care.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: Send it to them ahead of time, buy the program.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like, it's just not fair to us as the people behind the table who are putting in a lot of work to make these events happen as well, and creating the outcomes of those overalls and all of that.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and often bear the brunt of frustrations from studio owners and choreographers and everything.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_05: So, like you said, for us to be just introduced as like judge number one or as like Judge Jody and such, and I'm like, oh, it doesn't really say anything.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_05: And I mean to address it.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: That could be your cousin Jody.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: Who knows?
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know who Judge Jody is.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_05: Like Crystal was saying about like the layers and layers as a judge of color.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_05: It's like I always make sure that I'm dressed to make sure for the same things that Crystal was bringing up.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_05: It's like, oh, well, he's that judge, so maybe we won't take this so seriously.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_05: I was like, at least take my wardrobe seriously because I made sure that not only am I gonna represent, I'm gonna give you diverse fashions up here as well.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you always post, you always do a selfie every every judging weekend, you always look so fly.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_05: And look, it's getting harder and harder because these days everything is more expensive.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_05: So to try and do something, and since I've been working, like IDA has been around for 10 years, I've been judging for 20.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_05: To try and not duplicate an outfit is very difficult.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_05: Oh my gosh.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_01: And a comfort outfit.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about that because I want to look cute, but also like, yeah, I need to sit there for 12 hours.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want pants like digging into my stomach after I just ate pizza at lunch.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like you could just scarf it down, obviously.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_02: 10-minute break.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_05: So that's another adjudication skill is how to dress comfortably and fashionably to sit behind the table.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_05: That's it.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_05: Oh my god.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody knows the struggles.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, oh, talk about diversity.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: Oh man.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, okay, so I want to cover one other question of things that might come up, and I've I've I'm sure we've all experienced it where like perhaps the panel is diverse in terms of everything.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe they've really felt successful at getting a person of color and a person with this specialty and a person that's this age, and everything feels like, yes, we've represented everything we possibly can.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: And then you have the one judge gives a 97 and the other judge gives an 82.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_00: And they're not cohesive, perhaps because of the diversity.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: Have you experienced something like that?
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: How does that play into like how did if if they didn't cast properly or they thought they did, but somehow they didn't?
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_00: Have you had that experience and how do you kind of help that along?
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_05: It's it can get a little dicey because a lot of the competitions are different within their criteria and where they put percentage points.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_05: It's like what is like performance or look or choreography is a different number of percentage points to get to that overall score.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_05: I I feel very lucky in that the majority of the competitions that I am uh sitting to adjudicate, we get there within like the first couple of numbers as far as like scoring like only within a couple of points of one another.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_05: I have never experienced it where that's not true.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_05: There have been times where I've been the strict judge.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_05: And so then I say, okay, so what is the criteria here?
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_05: What are we looking for?
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_05: And then I adjust accordingly.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_05: Not that I'm being lenient, but I do understand this as a business, and I can still get a point get across my critiques without having just such uh an unusual drop or raise in my score totals.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good point.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it's hard to kind of figure out, like, you know, for a while, and especially, and I'm immediately thinking of IDA judges and how y'all are superstars because we work with 15 different affiliated competitions, which all have different criteria and judging breakdowns and brackets for their scores, and then to have to like reset be on one this weekend, next weekend I'm going to a different competition.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I gotta flip my brain around to relearn how to score in this bracket.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: And it just takes a little bit of time and it's not as easy as ever.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone thinks it is.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_01: So it does take some time to find that cohesiveness within a panel.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that's okay.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and also like if you do find out that you're the strict judge, because oftentimes we can't see what other judges are scoring, you have no clue.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_01: So then the tabulator will be like, you know, your score is real like about five points lower than everybody else.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: Then you start just figuring it out.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_01: And you want to make sure that you get re-employed.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_01: So you want to show that you can take a note and apply it.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you don't take a note and say, I'm going to stay firm where I'm judging, then you probably won't get rehired again.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then you're going to make the customers mad.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's a full business vicious circle.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and that is one thing that I think having, and Jody, you kind of mentioned this, like how your judging sort of philosophy has changed over the years.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's still judges out there.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like you get to the panel, and having been a director, it's like I've been the person to come up to say, you're scoring a little low.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: You're the average is not making any sense because you're scoring way too low.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: There's been judges that are staunchly going to just continue to do that because they don't have any leniency in their point of view.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_00: And that to me is a mark of not a really great judge or a very young and experienced judge.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_00: If you're not willing to do exactly what you said, Jody, still get your point across.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I think your technique is lacking.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm not going to score you 10 points lower, even though I think that's like I'm going to continue to get my point across.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_00: And when judges are able to do that, I'm like, that is when we can all come together and like it makes sense.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_00: And it and that's a hard, it's it's hard to do, I think, when you feel, when you feel like you are correct and your your point of view is, you know, the right way.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_00: And like we've all been there.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: And it's the ones of us that have evolved, like we said, to continue to be employed, to still be a good educator, to still get the point across, but you don't have to be so disparate with your opinion.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_05: And staunch.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_05: And I often find, or I can't say often, in the rare occasions that there are multiple judges of color on the panel.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_05: I do find that it takes less time for us to be cohesive as to where our scores tend to sit.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_05: There's only been one time in my IDA history that the entire plan, the entire panel, we were all black judges.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_05: And it was a great experience, one because I know how rare that is.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_05: And almost immediately, not only did our personalities click, but the way that we adjudicated clicked.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_05: And it it provided for a fantastic weekend of judging.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: I love hearing that.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_01: If your dancer has a love for ballet and classical training and is interested in a distinctive seven-day summer intensive, then join us at Francisco Gala Danceworks Ballet Plus Intensive.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_01: Scheduled for June 8th through the 14th, 2025, in sunny Miami, Florida.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_01: Ballet Plus is a comprehensive program designed to help students establish a strong technical foundation in ballet, modern, and jazz.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_01: And if you attend the Ballet Plus Intensive this summer, then you'll have a chance to dance with me.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm excited to return for my third year teaching jazz and musical theater at this incredible event, and we'll be thrilled to see you there.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_01: The Ballet Plus Intensive welcomes intermediate through advanced dancers ages 10 through 22.
• 47:15
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• 47:19
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• 47:31
  SPEAKER_01: Hope to see you in Miami this summer at Ballet Plus.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_02: I have to say I've I've never had uh an experience where some the judging was so far apart from each other.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_02: And like you said, like we like usually there is like that first like five to ten numbers where we're all trying to kind of figure out like what is the city about, like what does the city, what is the top level of the city and versus like what is that like far so that we can set based off that.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I I know there's always that like first few numbers where we're trying to figure it out, but I've been lucky and fortunate enough where there hasn't been such a wide variety in uh not across the board, not consistently.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like there will be that one or two outlier, but um, I've been lucky for that.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_02: So that's great.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that means that you've been on really good panels.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_00: That means that somebody cast those panels really well.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, we are cream of the crop, IDA.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_05: So there you go.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_01: And like, you know, it's this isn't like just the full IDA advertisement episode at all, but I just want to like reiterate to everyone listening and like hopefully other competitions are listening because they should be, they should be also doing their research and and listening to what's happening in the industry.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_01: But it it does impact the flow of an event.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like it absolutely does if the if the panel isn't cohesive.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because at in a perfect world, in your example, Leslie, which that question was so exceptional.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_01: In a perfect world, every judge should preferably be have an understanding of competitive dance to a point where they will most likely be living in like a three-point maximum four-point spread range because they were vetted, qualified, professional, experienced individuals.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_01: We've already checked that box off if the competitions are casting and staffing their people appropriately.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_01: If they're hiring new people that have never done this and inexperienced judges and didn't train them and just expect them to know what they're doing when they walk in, they might be all over the place with their scoring because they don't understand how to do it yet.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_01: They're still kind of feeling it out.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_01: They weren't given any tools to succeed.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_01: Half the time, there's not even a judge's training.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_01: There might be like a, hey, did you read the pamphlet?
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_01: Cool, let's go.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_01: And boom, they're just putting you in, you know?
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like, what do you expect in those scenarios if you're not putting in the energy to your judging panel?
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yes, we're independent contractors, but also, like we just discussed, and as our customers know who are listening, every competition event is different.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_01: It is so half the time no one knows what's happening at awards because there's so many darn awards.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_01: We don't know how we got there, who won first place what?
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like the parents are completely confused.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, speaking of that, at my teacher meeting at Streets this weekend, which I do like a little chat with the teachers, and I just let it be an open forum.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, do you have any questions about the industry, competitive dance, whatever it is?
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: One of the questions was like, how do we get parents to understand how the scoring works?
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_01: They see a number from one competition to another and they don't understand how you get that number.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't make sense to them and they can't wrap their head around that.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I get it because I still don't even know.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't even understand how we get these numbers.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I know when I'm in the moment as a judge what what I need to give to get it the adjudication score that I want it to.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_01: But we can't be looking at that number and comparing it to another completely separate competition organization and think that that number may means the same thing because it doesn't.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like, you know, it's across the board, it's hard for our job as judges to not only score for different competition organizations, but to then also score cohesively with the same ex you know, different expectations and catering to that bar and that level of talent, like you mentioned, Crystal.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's very, very hard on all sides of the table.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_05: Indeed.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_05: As you said, sometimes they don't even introduce us like judges first and last name.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_05: I'm more sure that for most competitions, they don't even show what the breakdown of scoring is.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_05: Oh no.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_05: No, not to the customer, no.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_05: Sometimes they don't, yeah.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_01: I've asked that question because I think, and I could be wrong.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I know, Crystal, you work at a studio, and I'm sure you've seen score sheets a lot that you get for your kids at competition, but a lot of different depends on like the adjudication software.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_01: So on our end, if it's a broken down score, it might be like technique, execution, performance, overall appearance or something.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_01: And we have these small range numbers that we eventually get to 100 on our end.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_01: And then that combines to 300 for a total score out of 300.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_00: I've heard a lot of-lucky if the competition does it that way, because there's some that don't, and then you're like, then your mind is completely blown if you're if your total is not a hundred.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_00: So don't get me started on that.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, right, right, right.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_01: But I've heard like on the receiving end on customers end that you like oftentimes you'll just get like the 300 score total, or you'll get the 100 score total, but you won't see how it was broken down.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think it depends on the competition company.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, absolutely.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I only do competitions where I can see the breakdown so that I can know where what's the point of it?
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's not yeah, exactly.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so I can help my dancers become better.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_02: Like if it's, you know, so yeah, we only do ones that I can see the breakdown and and the judging panel is diverse.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_02: So I love that.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and so I guess what is your what is your suggestion?
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we can make suggestions into the ether all we want, and who knows who's gonna take these because you know, we don't we can't control who's listening.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_00: But if you could wave your magic wand and make a competition, do something you wanted them to do, what would that be in terms of uh diversity in hiring, transparency in letting people know who was hired?
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like what would be ideal for you?
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_02: I would definitely say definitely one that has a bio.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_02: I am a very big advocate of knowing who the judges are and why they may be giving the critiques that they critici you know that they give.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_02: So as a competition director, as a as a educator that's bringing my dancers to, I would love a bio.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_02: I would love the introduction that we've talked about and a diverse panel, one that has a breakdown of the scoring.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_02: So, like you said, you can see like, okay, well, we're lacking in this, so this is why we need to go back and and retool or rework or prepare for the next competition because of this.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_02: And then also one that loves on the art form of dance is not so business focused because I see so many that are business focused, and if you bring more dances, you win more versus like acknowledging the art of dance is why we all do it.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_02: Like we love, we're here because we love it, it's our passion.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_02: Versus like you brought a thousand dances so you guys get the top overall tour where you know that smaller studio doesn't have a chance and they're not being seen.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_02: So just being able to be a level playing field across the board is definitely something that I would look for.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_02: And just going back to this diverse panel like of judging, you know, like that is so important to how I choose competitions for my dancers.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like, am I no am I gonna be able to rely on the judges' critiques?
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_02: Because that is why I am sending my dancers there at the end of the day, not to get a trophy, not to stand on stage and say your name and your your studio.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's about getting the critiques and applying them and becoming an a better dancer, a better performer, a better human being.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_02: So that is A1 top of my list of reasons why a dancer should be going to competition, not for the first place trophy, you know.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_00: Which you can also purchase at the merch stands, by the way.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_05: Yes, I completely agree with everything like Crystal has just said.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_05: The my two cents to add is in seeing a diverse panel of adjudicators, of judges behind the table, also knowing their background, like if there is a specialty, knowing that like Crystal is a specialty in ballet, like Jody is a specialty in jazz and in musical theater repertory or Broadway styles, just knowing that too, then you can weigh their diverse opinions, their diverse critiques on your dancers, like well, they know this because look at what they've accomplished within that genre of dance as well, and as well as being just a diverse person in this world in general.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_01: Back to the bio thing.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's another beautiful point as to why our bios need to be shared because it backs us up.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_01: It it shows our credentials, it shows our experience.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_01: A teacher can't just be like, they don't know what they're talking about.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, they do.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_01: They were in six Broadway shows and they studied the style of Falsey.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what are you talking about?
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_01: They know what they're talking about.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_01: You don't know what how to teach this style.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm sorry.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like, that's the whole point of going to these competitions to have an outside viewpoint of your dancers and for you, not just the dancers, but also the educators and the teachers to grow at the same time and not be afraid of hearing those opinions from others in the industry who have maybe had those opportunities that you weren't able to have.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like, we all have different dance journeys and we all have learned different experiences, and that's why we always say it's three different opinions.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, that's an absolutely opinion, but we do hope that we can learn from some of the other artists in the industry that may specialize in particular genres.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that doesn't mean that they are right and you are wrong.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_01: It just means that they're gonna share their knowledge and experience on this style that they have might have more experience than you.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_01: And that's totally okay.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_01: That's also part of the reason why they're sitting in that chair, is because they have that experience level to back it up.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I do think it's important.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_01: We've all been on panels where everyone might not be a tap judge.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_01: There might be one tap judge if we're lucky.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_01: There might be no tap judges just based on how it panned out, and there's a really fierce tap dance coming on stage.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that's unfortunate for the studios because there should be that uh that specialty representation on the panel for them.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, just based on this full conversation, as you can see, we and especially on my end and a lot of competitions and we can't check every box.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_01: We unfortunately can't check every box when it comes to diversity on the panel, but we can do our best to try to check majority.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_01: We can.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_01: And it's possible.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_01: But those judges that are bringing a lot of uh versatility in styles to their uh training are oftentimes the ones that work the most in the industry because they're not just a specialty.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_01: They are checking off more boxes for the competition right when it comes to style genre preference.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_01: They can cover tap, they can do hip hop, they can also critique ballet.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's the type of judge that everyone's looking for.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_01: But then are we also making sure that the rest of the panel is diverse enough?
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_01: Is that representation still there?
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a hard thing to figure out.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of competitions struggle with trying to figure out which boxes on the diversity side of it, when they're picking three people to sit there, are they focusing on and what are the most important to them?
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_01: Per and I think it can change in each event based on who's showing up and knowing your clients too.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_01: But the genre thing is hard because not everyone's gonna be a specialty in everything.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_01: And but everyone thinks we're supposed to be.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, but then that's the onus on the adjudicator as well.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_05: You can have your specialty.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_05: It's it's it's like I tell students all the time, they're like, What advice could you give if I want to be on Broadway or if I want to dance professionally?
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_05: It's like, know your strengths, know your weaknesses, and work on all of them.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_05: And I feel like as an adjudicator, it behooves me sitting behind that table to educate myself on these genres that I'm not like a specialist in.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_05: So that like Courtney was saying, I can be as versatile, I can be as diverse with the genres of dance to adjudicate behind that table as I absolutely possibly can be.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I applaud the competitions that give us a heads up when there might be a specialty style that are that are already registered.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_01: They see that clogging dance come in and they give the the judges a heads up, like, brush up on your clogging uh knowledge because you're gonna see that this weekend.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_01: We're like, okay.
• 59:47
  unknown: Yes.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_01: And we're doing our job.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we're trying to provide, like we've talked about, the best experience possible on all sides.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_01: And we want to come prepared, but I do think that there are competitions that could do a little bit of a better job in in allowing us to be properly prepared to come do our job to the best of our ability in the heat of a competition season like that.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_01: Indeed.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well, y'all, this was a great chat.
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I loved it.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_01: Do we miss anything?
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_01: Is there anything else you no?
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's great.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_00: We covered it.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think so.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_00: Last last thoughts and yeah, I don't know.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this was fantastic.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_00: Except Jody, you just have a few more minutes in your car, don't you?
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_00: 1:30.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_05: So I I can't see one o'clock.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_05: It's one, so he's fine.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, he's good.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_05: I'm good.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_01: So this was such a fantastic discussion and such a needed discussion for our industry.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_01: I have never really heard people talk about this in depth like this, like when it comes to diversity and representation on judging panels.
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's vented about on the forums a bit here and there, but I don't think that anyone's really sat down and had a full-blown discussion on it before.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to applaud us for making this possible and making the impact and to all of your fabulous uh experience in the industry as educators, as professionals, and as judges to bring your knowledge to this chat.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_01: And uh thank you for all that you do for our dance world as well, for creating a voice out there for so many and also being the inspiration to a lot of those dancers that are up on stage as judges.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_01: It just means so much as we discuss today.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I am so appreciative of both of you and all of our judges on the roster.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_01: So, that being said, we always have our judges or our guests lead us out on making the impact with one final thought on the topic.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_01: So if there's anything final that you would like to say to the world, you can speak to whoever you'd like, the competition organizations, the studios, the dancers, the teachers, anyone out there in competition world and dance world that you'd like to say one final thought too regarding diversity on judging panels at dance competitions.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_05: I would say to the competition heads, the competition directors, don't let your judges be an afterthought.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_05: Like present our bios, say our first and last names, and point out like if you have a big credit, if you dance for that ballet company, if you dance for that contemporary company, or if you have the Broadway credits or just so that like in those times where the parents are a little iffy, be like, well, they don't know what they're talking about or at least there is at some point during the competition day or days that that point has been made so that it accredits us just to the laity, to the lay people in the audience, that just like, oh, they know what they're talking about, so they should take what they say quite seriously.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_05: And then the fact that we are diverse in our appearance, in our education, in our training, also know that that that is extra plumes in our hat, if you will, or like feathers in our cap for surviving this world and what we have to go through day after day as people of color.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_02: I would like to say I want to do to one final thought to the dancers.
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_02: And just to let you know, especially those who may be a genre or a person that's not represented all the time, or the the minority.
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_02: There it is.
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_02: For those who might be the minority, I would love to share that we see you.
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_02: I see you and I acknowledge you.
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_02: I am so excited to see that you're here and I'm supportive of your dance journey just because I've been, like I spoke earlier, I've been that one person of color, I've been the one female dancer, I've been that one one off, the the minority so often.
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_02: And to just be seen sometimes is speaks volumes to like the what can happen in the future for your dance career.
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I definitely want to say that and also to the dance owners, the the teachers, like the diversity on a judges' panel is only gonna make you and your students stronger with hearing critiques from the professional Broadway star to the prima ballerina to the commercial dancer.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_02: You're gonna get some nugget of information from everybody that you can apply to your own teaching style, to your dancers, and to just creating a more holistic dancer that will have a thriving dance career, whether it's ends in high school or that year, or takes them on into this professional career, like just creating great human beings, and we can always grab some nugget from every judge that is gonna make them more than just a great dancer.
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_01: We hope you enjoyed this week's episode all about diversity on Judging Panel.
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_01: Special shout out to our IDU judges Jody and Crystal for joining us on this fabulous chat.
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_01: Be sure to follow them on Instagram.
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_01: You can find Jodi at OtherBlackGuy and Crystal at Christy930.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_00: Don't forget to follow Making the Impact on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Podcast, and pretty much everywhere you listen to podcasts.
• 1:04:52
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• 1:04:59
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• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_00: Join now at Impact Danceadjudicators.com slash Platinum Premium or click the link in our show notes.
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_01: Looking for some outside expertise to fine-tune your dance before hitting the competition stage this season?
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_01: Then check out IDA's Online Judges Critiques.
• 1:05:22
  SPEAKER_01: Our seasoned judges will provide you with the video critique of your routine, just like you'd receive at competition.
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_01: But with IDA's online judges critiques, we take it one step further with our post-critique additional feedback.
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_01: Your judge will go through your routine again, pausing the video to give you even more detailed and personalized feedback.
• 1:05:41
  SPEAKER_01: You can even request a judge that specializes in your style of dance.
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_01: With critiques starting at only$35, what are you waiting for?
• 1:05:49
  SPEAKER_01: Click the link in our show notes or visit our website at Impact DanceAjudicators.com/slash one line critiques to learn more and submit your dance today.
• 1:05:59
  SPEAKER_00: Stay tuned for more of season six of Making the Impact as we bring you episodes including audience and dressing room etiquette and being a dance teacher when your child is on the team.