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Empathy, Advocacy & Neurodiversity: Lessons from a Kindergarden Teacher, Paige Rogers · Inchstones with Sarah | Autism Advocacy & Caregiver Stories

• 0:00
  Speaker A: I like one on one. Okay, well, welcome one of my first true people that I connected with moving from New York City to New Jersey. And while I was drag, kicking and screaming from the city, finding and getting to have Paige, Matt, or. Oh, my gosh, I didn't even say it. You're married now. Paige Rogers land in my life. Paige, thank you so much for being here on the Inch Jones podcast. You have been an instrumental part in showing what. Showing up authentically to who you are and to your lived experiences. And I do believe that you are universally placed in my life to be just that. You are now an educator. You are an influencer when it comes to being your best self in that role. And I am so happy to have you today.
• 0:55
  Speaker B: I'm so happy to be here. I feel like it makes so much sense that this is the first, like, podcast forum I've ever done to be yours. And I can't believe how long we've known each other.
• 1:07
  Speaker A: Now, that's wild. I mean. So the quick backstory is Paige was my first babysitter. When I moved to the suburbs, I was pregnant with Millie. And Paige was on her own journey of discovery in college and figuring out what she wanted to literally do with her life, which we all in our 20s and are constantly learning that we're figuring out. And Paige was a person that was in our home, not only helping me with Morgan, but realizing and really witnessing all those small, little things that were happening as I became aware of Millie's neurodivergence. You know, you now are an educator yourself. You know, how do you think, given your understanding of autism from literally ground zero with being in our home, how do you think that influences your own educational prowess and how you are so inclusive in your classroom?
• 2:04
  Speaker B: I think that's. It's exactly what it does, is it gives me that experience and that sense of empathy. And unfortunately, like, I wish this wasn't true, but unfortunately, unless you have that firsthand experience, I think with students with special needs or children with special needs or disabilities, you don't have that in you. And I think I see that in education. Sometimes I can point out the people that don't have experience in their own personal lives with kids on the spectrum or anywhere. Please. And it just. You have such a unique sense of empathy and awareness. I mean, every kid, to me now that I see in school is Mac and Millie, because they were my first experience on the spectrum.
• 2:54
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 2:55
  Speaker B: It puts me in this place of, like, almost defensiveness. Like, I want them to thrive in school and have the learning experience that the rest of the kids have.
• 3:07
  Speaker A: Right. There's. I mean, it's. It's so complex. Right. There's so many choices from the parent side, from the educational side, from a teacher point of view, from a care, From a babysitter care, caregiver role. But I think you're right in that it comes down to having to live it and see it. And I think one of the coolest parts about your desire to be a guide for children sits so closely to the role as like a babysitter or a caregiver or whatever that is. When you're in someone's home and seeing that, that's ground zero. I mean, that is ground zero. It's foundational. You never know what goes on behind closed doors. Well, when you're actually in someone's home and tending and caring for their children and seeing those micro differences, the micro changes, the short or long conversations that are around it, you were able to absorb something about specifically, I mean, even with Morgan, even a typically developing kid, how Mac and Millie's differences change everyone. You know, do you see or do you feel like you are able to foster better, typical children's acceptance of maybe kids that have developmental disabilities or differences in your own classroom because of that?
• 4:21
  Speaker B: I would like to think so, yeah.
• 4:23
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 4:24
  Speaker B: I mean, my first and foremost belief in my classroom is to teach to the uniqueness of all of my students. And that includes so many things. Right. It not only includes how we learn, how we process, how we experience life, but it includes the holidays that you celebrate or the families that you have, or the color of your skin or the religion you have. So it's all encompassing to me. And I. I try to do my best. It's. I will literally forego a science lesson in order to teach about Diwali or teach about sensory overload or. And I try to just give that experience to my students. And one of the things I love about kindergarten is the fact that they're so. It's so found, like this is their first experience in a full day school.
• 5:14
  Speaker A: Right.
• 5:14
  Speaker B: I get to be the person that leads them in that year. And I hope that these things that I can impart to them get to carry them through their experience in school and then life.
• 5:27
  Speaker A: That's.
• 5:27
  Speaker B: We would all hope, but I'm a very strict teacher and I try to teach in the sense that, you know, we celebrate each other's uniqueness. And I try to steer away from the word differences. For some reason, it just like, feels. Feels wrong to say, let's celebrate differences. I would rather say our uniqueness.
• 5:46
  Speaker A: Yes, I, well, okay, that, that's going to become a magic part of this conversation because I know that even the term special, like I, I, you know, I'm a geriatric millennial, right. Like I was raised in the late 80s, early and 90s, right. So the term special for me actually does come from Mr. Rogers. To be completely honest, being like you, my friend, you're special. Special for me means unique. Special for me means I love you for who you are. But that can have a conflating term currently, like in today's society. So I'm cautious of that. And so I like that you're different, not less, but also unique, not less. I love that. I love that. Because the complexity of a child's word from the second they're born is there the plasticity of their brain at a young age. And I know that it's life. I mean we all have the ability to change that plasticity. You're able to acknowledge and really, really affect and do you feel powerful in that position? Like a beautifully powerful.
• 6:49
  Speaker B: Yeah. It's interesting because I, and then parents will tell me, they'll be like, oh yeah, so and so came home today and they said that you were talking about this, this and this. And so wow, they were really listening to me. They word for word said exactly what I said. They're little sponges. So they're, they're really are listening and taking things to heart. And I think that's every kindergarten teacher and early, early elementary teacher has to think about how important language is in their classroom. It is what I say and I have to word things uniquely because also a lot of concepts that I'm going to teach to a five year old, it's going to be the first time they've ever heard them. So it's going to stick a little bit more. So I have to be really careful about the language that I use in that situation because if I say something and then they take it to mean one thing, that's going to be how they carry it.
• 7:40
  Speaker A: How they carry it. Yeah, it's.
• 7:43
  Speaker B: Yes, there's like a sense of power, but there's also a sense of responsibility.
• 7:48
  Speaker A: Responsibility. I should correct myself, like what a beautiful responsibility you have. And I think our job as humans is to show up as authentically as we can. But there is a crafting of that. You know, modeling, modeling behavior to what you, what you want your children to learn is obviously more important than what you can strictly say. And I believe in A school environment, though, where the parent. Where your parents aren't around. And you get to have an educator who understands sort of the beautiful complexities of all different lived experiences, including their own, have a foundational sense of, like you say, responsibility to teach to that whether those experiences have been yours or not. And I think my hope for neurodiversity as a whole, and the earlier we talk about it, the more it becomes normal. Normal becomes normalized. You know, I grew up in a household where my mom and dad were very radical in terms of their choices. And they left careers that were very cushy, probably back then as engineers. And they were like, nope. And my mom became an artist and my dad became a teacher. And we always had very interesting people in our house. It was not typical. You know, my parents ran folk group at our church. So they had a lot of older retirees, either widows or, you know, single older women. They had a lot of, you know, religious educators around. We had a lot of gay and lesbian couple friends. Like, I was exposed to a lot of very different categories of people very young. I probably thought growing up, this is annoying. Can't we just be like everyone else? Can't we just have my parents just go out to dinner with another couple and just call it a day, Right? But then as I get older and as I lean into more of my own self, I think, wow, it's because they chose to do that for themselves. It frees you talk to me about that as an educator because you get to do that and not not be a parent. You get to do that from just being a teacher.
• 9:53
  Speaker B: Well, the, the, the hill that I will die on as a kindergarten teacher and educate elementary education teacher is representation and how teaching evolves. Right? Pedagogy and the, the. The buzzwords that come with education tend to cycle and there's new things that come in and then they go out and all that kind of stuff. You know, when I was in school, even in college, there just wasn't a lot of focus on representation. And a lot of the things that we saw with textbooks or even just decor, it was very zeroed into one type of group of people. And you don't realize, like I have done research, I wrote a paper about this, how much that impacts a child if you can't see yourself. I always go back to this quote from Sally Ride, especially because, you know, Lindsay is going to be an astronaut. But yeah said you can't be what you can't see. And that quote has always resonated with me. So Much. Even just my own personal experience. I didn't know what was until I was much older. And it took me, I think, so much longer to come out.
• 11:03
  Speaker A: Absolutely.
• 11:04
  Speaker B: I was. So. I think that concept goes to everything else.
• 11:10
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 11:11
  Speaker B: Don't put posters in my classroom or read books about all types of groups of people. My kids are going to feel isolated and alone that represent that group. And even if I have a class full of 90% of one demographic, I'm sending books about them. Because you're going to go out in the world and meet other people. So it's my job to prepare you for that.
• 11:33
  Speaker A: Right.
• 11:34
  Speaker B: I mean, it's your parents job, but I also think it's my job.
• 11:36
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 11:37
  Speaker B: And it's my job to develop empathy in you and to develop awareness. So I think representation in general of every kind of person you can imagine is important at this foundational level. Obviously, as you grow up in education, too.
• 11:53
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 11:54
  Speaker B: It's harder to unlearn things. Older you get, as we know as millennials.
• 11:59
  Speaker A: I can't believe you're a millennial. You're not a millennial. You're so, like, gen Alpha to me. Oh, my God.
• 12:03
  Speaker B: I am a zillennial. I know.
• 12:05
  Speaker A: You're, like, barely. You're, like, scraping into that millennial generation.
• 12:09
  Speaker B: I think my brother is actually the last generation of millennial, but okay, like, zillennials. So I think our generation talks a lot about, you know, like, being in therapy and unlearning things we have learned from society or our families or whatever. And it's so true. Like, I feel like I've taken all of that and also my own research about things and been like, wow, okay, this is my job. This is what I need to do, is represent everybody I possibly can so that my students can see it, they're exposed to it, and then they're gonna go through life a little more aware and a little more empathetic, and they're gonna figuring out who they are, who they are.
• 12:47
  Speaker A: And I think. You know, again, I think I love generational discussions. I think it's so cool because they do play such a role into how younger and younger we can talk about these things openly with high empathy. One of the coolest things in talking to companies about neurodiversity that I never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever thought or anticipated would come up. Never, Paige. Like, ever. I always thought, okay, I'm speaking to the mom who has a child that is different, not less, that has an autism diagnosis, that has a, you know, cerebral palsy that has you know a major, major diagnosis that it's perpetually going to change the life of that family and parent and that. And maybe the caretakers or maybe the grandparents at a company that have a, a child who had a grandchild that is showing confused and it just spun around. Yeah. The audience that I did not think that were going to latch on to my ideas of celebrating the inch stones and celebrating the child fully for who they are is Gen Z. And they ask the most insightful questions when I hold a Q and A and they're like, I mean they're like the hands. They're the first hands that are up. And I'm talking from not like an educational community. I'm talking from like a corporate corporation, corporate America. Someone who is a 26 year old junior analyst at a brand. Right. And they raise their hand, they're like hey, I have a cousin who has a child that I see over Thanksgiving and I know that they got diagnosed with xyz. I would love to know how to best connect. How do I make them feel seen and heard. And when I tell you when these questions first started coming out from a generational point I was like this was not. I am so beautifully blown away right now. I think the emotional intelligence of subsequently younger generations is going to fuel the acceptance. Now it's not that doesn't take work. But I was as someone who considered, I consider myself to be like, I don't know, like I love people give Gen Z a bad rap. Like I've always, even before speaking I've been like guys like every generation feels.
• 14:57
  Speaker B: This way about another generation.
• 14:58
  Speaker A: Like we're not.
• 14:59
  Speaker B: Because I worked with the Gen Z kids when I did the musicals and I think they are they that generation has the power to mobilize and make change in the world and then Gen.
• 15:08
  Speaker A: Alpha is going to do it differently. You know my, my sister sent me a picture of my youngest niece with AirPods in flipped around so the long port was in her ear. Like it wasn't the like the, the thing. And she was like Gen Gen Alpha at its best trying to challenge the, the status glow. And I, I thought to myself like I think that that is becoming more and more of like the generational pushing of things when it comes to cognitive diversity and how we think and how we see versus like the like living and reality of food, water, health, homes, all these things.
• 15:41
  Speaker B: Right.
• 15:41
  Speaker A: I but yeah that was the beautiful thing. And I think that Gen Z like in realizing that they can make a difference like in some small way to this Acceptance of, as you're saying, like the massively and multitude of different ways of life. Mike is going to slowly push that needle further and further to a greater understanding and awareness of people that do not show up like you, like, full stop. And I believe that those differences are only going to make her have an acceptance of her own self later on in life quicker than probably 99% of her peers.
• 16:16
  Speaker B: I agree with that.
• 16:17
  Speaker A: You know, like, and I think that your ability, I hope what I would come to believe. And like you said you worked with Gen Z kids when you were doing high school musicals and such, that they come back to you and say thank you for holding space for that. Thank you for holding space for how we saw the world. And you know, in inspiring you to continue to them to continue to do that.
• 16:37
  Speaker B: Yeah, I did have a few experiences like that. And it. It's the thing that keeps driving me. And it seriously was the biggest privilege of my life. And I told them that when I stepped away from the musicals, it was such a privilege to work with them and to gain their insight and to have even just kids come to me and be like, I love coming to rehearsal every day. Not because I'm the greatest singer or dancer, but I love this space. Like being around here with you and Misty, like my co director and. And all of these kids.
• 17:07
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 17:08
  Speaker B: Like, it. It feels like home and it feels like a space where I can be myself. And I.
• 17:12
  Speaker A: That is a luxury you cannot buy. I'm gonna cry. You cannot buy that. One thing I realized, like in my 40s is the. The most priceless things in life you literally cannot buy. No. Literally. You could not have paid thousands of dollars to create what you created for those kids. No.
• 17:27
  Speaker B: And we didn't have thousands of dollars. Let me tell you.
• 17:29
  Speaker A: I'm sure you did it.
• 17:30
  Speaker B: I.
• 17:31
  Speaker A: And that's what the coolest thing about it is, is recognizing that, in that the connectivity that we are able to do as an older person to affect the younger generations in that acceptance of others. Like, if the conversations are heavy one day, great. It's a moving through pain. Right. It's. Some days are gonna be harder than others and you just keep moving and you acknowledge it and keep moving. And like, you know, I. I would be remiss to say that, like, if. If you don't do that, life gets harder. Right.
• 17:58
  Speaker B: Life gets harder if you push against that, like making it harder for yourself.
• 18:03
  Speaker A: Right. Right. Okay. Well, before I let you go, what would be something that you love most about any neurodivergent Child, autistic, apraxic kid that you either get to work with or have got able to witness through my own children. What is something that you just wish that everyone would know from an educational point of view, but also from just a person that's been so prominently involved in my atypical children's lives?
• 18:30
  Speaker B: I think what I love most is seeing the way, I mean, I'm literally thinking about your kids, but thinking, seeing the way they experience joy. I mean, the things that give them joy. And just watch like Millie and her apples. It's just the most pure, beautiful thing that she loves an apple. She loves a Peppa Pig book. She loves a sticker.
• 18:53
  Speaker A: Yes, yes.
• 18:54
  Speaker B: Those things give her so much joy.
• 18:58
  Speaker A: Right?
• 18:58
  Speaker B: So much like endless. I mean, since she was.
• 19:02
  Speaker A: I went through her after school binder and they did a sticker activity and hers are all stacked on top of each other because that's what she likes to do with stickers. I don't have to tell you guys, like, you're not going to convince her that there is any other way to do stickers. And like, the beautiful lack of conditioning is like the coolest thing about autistic kids.
• 19:19
  Speaker B: Yep. They're like, you have so much to teach us, like truly and it.
• 19:25
  Speaker A: And it.
• 19:26
  Speaker B: And you say this all the time on your Instagram, but it really just makes you slow down and, and be grateful because you're able to just witness things like that, like how happy you are doing this one thing and all the stress that I'm feeling. You're not feeling that. You're feeling just happiness. And I think that is something that can teach us all. And I, and I when it comes to schools. Luckily, New Jersey is one of the strictest states when it comes to like special ed law and following IEPs, individualized education programs. But as you know, like, it's not, it's never one size fits all. Every. Every kid on the spectrum or we're having a learning ability or whatever is so unique. Their needs are so unique. The things that, that they experience, their, their motivators, their trigger, everything. There's no one size fits all. There's no teacher that can come in and say, I'm going to be perfect with everybody because you haven't experienced everybody. And I think that people needing to step back and say that, like, there's, I feel like there's some arrogance when it comes to teaching. Sometimes people that come in and they're like, I'm so good at this. And like, I'm. Don't worry about Me, I'm great. You can't, you literally can't be that way as a teacher at all. I think in my opinion as a.
• 20:51
  Speaker A: Human, like, can you imagine if you're like, I mean, I'm good guys, like I'm good.
• 20:54
  Speaker B: Right. And you can't, you can approach an ASD class or an LLD class with that type of attitude because you're not going to learn anything from your kids.
• 21:04
  Speaker A: Yeah. So what would be, what would be something, Because I'm sure this is, I would guess that you've experienced this. You have a child in your classroom that maybe has autism or ADHD and you go to a parent and the parents of that child come for a parent teacher conference and you get to share with them about their child what is something that you would hope that those parents ask or should be proud of to see reflected back from the teacher. Because I think a lot of shame comes along with parents who lack the fearlessness to sometimes just accept their child for who they are. And as a teacher, you live that life like you, you, you fearlessly go into who you are and accept the kids that you get to teach, not have to teach. I think you get to teach. I always say, like it's, I get to live this life. Like I'm not forced, like I get to do this.
• 21:58
  Speaker B: From the parent perspective, I think number one, you have to know your kid's IEP backwards and forwards. And you would be so surprised at how many parents don't. And it's actually very disheartening to see. And it's something that I think about you a lot, Sarah. You are like such a model for what parents can do to be more included in their kids education and how to be more aware because your kids are so lucky to have you being that champion for them. Every kid, their parents should be their first champion. Right. But it's really hard to have situations and schools or meetings or child study team where parents are, they're still in denial or they're not thinking about what's best and instead of wanting to follow that IEP and get their kid in the classroom, that works best for them. They're pushing against it because they're like, I want my kid to be in the gen ed classroom.
• 22:55
  Speaker A: It's not gonna serve them right.
• 22:58
  Speaker B: And then you create tension with the people at the school who are absolutely for your kid.
• 23:03
  Speaker A: There are things that are going to not work perfectly.
• 23:07
  Speaker B: So I think number one, it's, it's, it's sitting down, coming to accept like what does My kid need best, not what I'm thinking, not what I want. What does my kid need in school?
• 23:19
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 23:19
  Speaker B: And then two, knowing your kids ip if they have one already, knowing it backwards and forwards so that you can go into a meeting and advocate for those resources in your kid's school. And three, just being open minded, being super open minded to, to hear what the child study team has to say and the social workers because they chances are they're going to have a lot more experience but also ask about resources. A lot of parents don't even ask. I know this is the sensory room. Does the school have the ability for my child to mainstream for 40 minutes in ed classroom types of questions? I feel like if parents don't ask.
• 23:58
  Speaker A: You can't know what they desire.
• 24:00
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 24:01
  Speaker A: I mean any relationship. I can't read your mind. I literally cannot read your mind. I don't care if it's my partner or my oldest child, I, I or you, I cannot read your mind. So. And I asked my case manager yesterday, I said hey, there's a social group I'd like to get Millie into that's local after school. Is this something the public will pay for?
• 24:21
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 24:22
  Speaker A: And she, her answer was no. I didn't feel like dumb in asking that. I was just inquisitive. But if you don't ask and then also be willing to accept whatever answer it is and keep pivoting, you know.
• 24:38
  Speaker B: Yeah. And don't. I hope no parents ever feel that way. Like feel dumb asking or feel silly asking like it's, it is, it is so sensitive for you and I feel that. I feel for you in but try to just remember that like everything that you ask, everything that you want to know is for the benefit of your child.
• 24:58
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think like if I, if I had to rename this podcast I would name it Stay curious because it's if we can just stay curious to others choices, others lives, others methodologies, others lived experience, others bodily functions. I mean it's just like let's just stay curious and go oh cool.
• 25:19
  Speaker B: Instead of closing your mind off to it.
• 25:21
  Speaker A: Thank you so much for who you are. The kids that you get to teach are so damn lucky. It makes me so happy that you are an educator. What a beautiful life that you get to live, live and to create and to influence. Even more lucky to call you a part of my world in my kids world. Thank you for who you are.
• 25:40
  Speaker B: Thank you for letting me Paige Rogers.
• 25:44
  Speaker A: Until next time on the Inchtones podcast. Yay. Yay.